Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing

[Johnny Billquist]

Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:
> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
>> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
>> > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 12:56 PM
>> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> > Subject: Re: Is this slashdot or Classiccmp? Re: Microsoft bashing
>> > 
>> > On May 22, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Christian Liendo wrote:
>>> > > yea.. I'm sick of the this too..
>>> > >
>>> > > You like your computer like a religion, fine.. Let other people
>>> > > have their religions too.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > etslay opstay ethay icrosoftmay ashingbay okway?
>> > 
>> >    Sure thing.  But let's make one thing clear: It's not a religion,
>> > as easy as it may be to dismiss it as such.
>> > 
>> >           -Dave
> 
> Perhaps not, but the zeal borders on religious - and equally without factual basis.  (No disrespect to any religion: the fundamental premise of any religion with which I'm familiar is faith, i.e. belief in that which is not proven.)  

The problem that I see is that Microsoft advocates usually try to prove 
that everyone else is wrong without ever considering if they have reason 
for the bashing.

It's a gut reaction, which I'm sure Microsoft loves to see. It's like 
unconditional buying in to the party line without any questions.
And it's mostly by people who actually have very actual experience with 
anything else.

Not saying that this is true for you specifically, Ian. Just noting in 
general...

> Fact: CERT reports just about as many exploits for Linux-derived systems as Windows (at least, that was the data I researched back when I was in grad school three or four years ago).  There is a lot of argument (again, mostly rather zealous) about which OS has the more "serious" vulnerabilities, but in any event they ARE flaws.  

And it's a sad day when people think that CERT is in any way related to 
quality in any way. CERT first of all are only reporting potential 
security problems, not quality problems. Second, CERT have had a 
tendency to not even reveal problems that are reported until after they 
have been fixed, which gives you both a skewed view, and also don't tell 
you how much of a problem something really have been.
Third, as you note, just using the numbers from CERT don't even tell you 
if this is a big or a small problem, so what do these numbers really 
tell you???

Oh, and noone (I hope) is claiming that any OS is without flaws. It's 
the design flaws that really upsets me (and others, I think).

> Fact: The most commonly seen causation for crashes in either Windows or Linux-derived operating systems is defective device drivers.  Interestingly, the two operating systems approach this differently.  Windows preemptively crashes: the logic is to return the machine to a known state.  Linux tries to keep going, which may result in an inexplicable error later on.  One can argue the merits of either approach, and I'm sure many do.  

I don't know where you got that fact from, but anyway. Even assuming 
that is true, you skip around some big problems here, such as the fact 
that most people running Windows are doing so with privileges to install 
a device driver straight away (it's usually connected with big problems 
using Windows without having privileges), while you normally run without 
the privilege of installing a device driver in most other systems.

However, defect device drivers are certainly a big problem.
But what I find to be a bigger problem in Windows are actually 
incompatible DLL-files. All delivered from Microsoft. And all called the 
same thing, but different versions. But some programs require one 
version to work, while another program needs another version, and both 
are incompatible with the other. So, what do I do then? And this will 
not cause Windows to crash. But it's a mess anyway.

DLL hell ring a bell?

> Fact: I have a large box filled with 'Software Revision' release publications for RSX-11.  (Hey look, I got it back to vintage systems!)  Microsoft is not the first operating system vendor to issue patches and patches to patches and....  I'm not sure why it seems more "egregious" with one vendor than another - except that there is a tendency to bash "corporations", despite the fact that the majority of corporations are small, privately held companies.   

Once more. No one is (I hope) claiming that there is a perfect OS 
without problems. However, Microsoft seems to have just about any 
problem any other OS had, and then invented a few new problems never 
seen before.

And many of those are not something for CERT, or even crashes. Just 
things that don't work as it should.

The concept of doing a reinstall of the OS every six to twelve months to 
get the system back into shape is not something any other company that I 
know of have as a concept. Neither the reboot every week.
The latter is becoming less of a problem though, as software updates 
nowadays usually require you to reboot the system anyway, so you never 
run systems long enough to get into the problems Windows seem to get 
once it has been running for a month or so.

> Opinion: I thought Microsoft operating systems were getting better and better, until Vista.  I hope they'll get it right with Windows 7 and get back on an upward trend.  However, I will say that it wasn't just Vista, but also the poor quality of PC hardware (three motherboards in one year?) that drove me to Macs.  I really like my PowerBook G4, not only for its convenience and reliability but also because it's dead sexy.  I recently replaced my desktop (supporting four monitors) with two Dual G4s (each running two monitors and sharing the keyboard/mouse through Synergy).  Function wins.  

I agree. But the fact that seem to be getting better and better should 
really be a warning bell, and not a proof of quality. If they could be 
improving quality so much that it seems appearant for anyone using the 
system, and to do that time and again, says that quality must have 
started on a really low level. And do you really think that by doing a 
few iterations, quality suddenly then is top notch?

And what happened with Vista?

> Disclosure: I worked for Microsoft for a dozen years.  (I don't anymore.)  When I worked at Microsoft, I did not like Vista and persisted in running XP on my company-issued laptop.  In fact, for a while before I left I ran Ubuntu at home, until I grew weary of replacing not-inexpensive PC components and fighting compatibility issues (in a commoditized marketplace!).  Now, since I don't work there anymore, no one bothers me about my PowerBook - since I've "taken off the collar", people have stopped expecting me to be an apologist - or seeing me as some kind of heretic.  It's just a computer.  

Ok. I'll make a disclosure as well. I hate Linux. I think it's a total 
disaster. It's a bunch of clowns who hardly knows how to write an OS 
sitting around hacking along as much as they can, and learning along the 
way. Is that something I'd like to depend upon? No!
But I'd still pick Linux before windows if I have to. But not being 
happy about it.

> These days, I've been spending a lot of my time on VMS on a VAX-11/780-5, using CMUIP as the networking layer.  THAT will give you a sense of perspective. Hey, backups are done - I need to go finish reassembling this TU56 for a PDP-8/e....  -- Ian 

And I spend time working on RSX, and even getting paid for it. And I'm 
having a blast. Even though I know of a bunch of problems, bugs, and 
security issues with the system. It is by no means bug free, but at 
least most things work pretty much the way they are meant to, and the 
systems have been chugging away for over 20 years without any major 
issues. Security problems - yes. Performance problems - no.

I guess that from a CERT point of view, RSX would loose to Windows. But 
I know of a few steel mills and paper mills that wouldn't be impressed 
with Windows. Rebooting once a year is not an option. Especially not if 
a few tons of hot steel is being processed right at that moment.

There. I'll stop my Windows bashing now, and pray that I'll be able to 
keep working without having to deal with that OS. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol