apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives?

Terry Stewart terry at webweavers.co.nz
Sun Dec 5 14:09:55 CST 2010


Tony, thanks for doing that bit of research.

While I can see your point, I feel board swapping does have its place in 
some circumstances but let's put that aside.  I don't want to fan flames (-:

Yes, a checkout to see if voltages were where they should be on the LisaLite 
boards was going to be my next step (and also a check of the cables).  I 
just wanted to see if there was any common design flaw/fault people know if 
in either the boards or the drives which caused the symptom before I went 
any further. Collective knowledge might have been a shortcut to the problem, 
hence the post.

I have a manual with some schematics and tonight I'll check and see if the 
LisaLite board is there.

>Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any
> of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping them
> out makes no difference.

Not entirely true, as the Lisa 2 startup checks carry right through until it 
asks for a disk for inserted.  So I can assume most parts are working. 
Incidently, the docs I have suggests this routine also checks the LisaLite 
controllers so (according to the machine anyway) these are ok.  It's hard to 
believe that THREE drives all have the same fault though.  All inputs into 
the drive are from the LisaLite board.  Maybe the diagnostic checks are not 
as thourough as they should be.

I'll report any more progress.  In the meantime if anyone else has any 
ideas, I'm all ears!

Terry Stewart (tezza)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: apple Lisa2. Any advice on non-working floppy drives?


>>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Anyone on the list have experience with the Apple Lisa?  I'm having fun
>
> ALas I don't ahve a Lisa (I can always dream...) But I may be able to
> offer some advice.
>
> Please be warned that last time I sent a message like this it caused yet
> another almighty flamefest. Let's see if that happens again :-)
>
>> playing with three broken Lisa's (1 Lisa 2/10 and 2 Lisa 2s) I aquired 
>> about
>> a month ago. The aim is eventually to get the Lisa 2/10 and one Lisa 2 
>> going
>> eventually.
>>
>> The Lisa 2/10 comes up with a disk controller error during the I/O board
>> check.  I don't have an I/O board I can swap out I've shelved that one 
>> until
>> I can get one of the other Lisa 2s going.
>>
>> After a systematic check of what is and what is not faulty in the three
>> Lisas, I've now got one of the Lisa 2s to the point where it asks for a
>> disk. And here's the problem.  I can't get any of my sony Lisa 400k 3.5
>> drives (all three of them) to show any sign of life?  You can see the 
>> little
>> LEDs come on inside but nothing mechanical moves at all?
>>
>> I have 2 LisaLite controller boards, but swapping these around makes no
>> difference.
>>
>> I find it hard to believe that all three drives have exactly the same
>> problem or even that both LisaLite boards have the same fault (although 
>> it's
>> always possible I guess?).  The only thing not swapped is the main cable
>> going from the backboard connector to the Lisa Light controller?  However
>> the connecting ends look ok with no sign of missing or damaged pins?
>
> \beign{rant}
> There are some people I hope I never meet, beause if I do I will probably
> do things that I come to regret (like when I'k in court for assault!).
> The inventor of board swapping is one such.
> \enf{rant}
>
> This si a very clear example of why board-swapping on classic computes is
> a very bad idea. Firstly, since you have no idea as to the health of any
> of the parts, you can't deduce anything from the fact that swapping them
> out makes no difference. Secondly, if there's somethign wrong that is
> damaging parts (say  12V where it shouldn't be), you might well have just
> ruined all the aprts you have. Oh well...
>
> As I said, I know noting about the Lisa. But a Google search for 'lise
> schematic' (no quotes) got me to a site with said scheamtics as the first
> or second site listed. These schemeaitcs incldue the Lisalite board
> (which I had never heard of) and the main Lisa boards, but alas not the
> drives themselves.
>
> If I am reading the schematics right, the Lisalite is an interface to
> make a Sony 400K 3.5" drive -- presumably the same as the Apple Mac 400K
> drive -- look something like the 'Twiggy' 5.25" drive. I don't think it
> does a complete coversion -- like the PERQ (which I am muich more
> familiar with), a number of the signals are software defined (they go to
> I/O port chips), so obviously those could change in meaning. The Lisalite
> board seems ot be really a PWM generatiro (using TTL chips that are easy
> to understand) to handle the motor speed control.
>
> As I said, there don't seem to be any schematics of the drive
> available, and I've never worked on one (I have worked on the 80KK drive,
> but that is quite different). However, IIRC one of the origianls volumes
> of 'Inside Macintosh' has some information on the drive interface. Just
> don't expect me to find it :-) I seem to rememebr that the control
> protocol for thsie drive is a lot more complex than that for a normal
> floppy drive, there aren't the expect signals on individual connector 
> pins.
>
> What I would do now -- actually waht I would have done first -- is grab
> the Lisalite scheaatic and check the power lines are correct. Check that
> there's 5V on the TTL chips, check that 5V and 12V are on the right pins
> of the drive connector. Then find out (possibly from Inside Macintosh)
> what is needed for the drive to spin. Presumably a PWM singal that's not
> always 0, but is there a separate motor enable bit too? In any case, see
> if the PWM scircuit is running, see if the machine is trying to talk to
> the drive.
>
> -tony
>
> 





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