From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 1 04:07:15 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 02:07:15 -0700 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4FF01343.8030406@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I was once told that locks were made to keep honest people out. If > someone wants in bad enough, they will get it.Thermite, anyone? Doesn't take anything near that fancy. I needed a diskus-style padlock removed recently. (Yes, it was my own lock, protecting my own stuff, and stupidly I lost the key.) Someone cut it off for me using a high-speed cut-off tool that looked similar to a Harbor Freight #68523, and cut through the whole central diameter of the lock in under 15 seconds. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:42:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:42:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FEF58B3.2060003@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 30, 12 03:51:15 pm Message-ID: [SPI .vs. I2C] > I use both regularly. SPI is inferior in some ways, but superior in I did say 'IMHO' :-). > others. I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI > is a better choice. It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've One bvious tiem to use SPI is if the chip you want only has an SPI interfce :-). > seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is fixed True. It depends -- a lot -- on what uou are using it for. Most of the time I use I2C to transfer small amounts of data to display drivers, low-speed DACs, etc. It weorks fine for that. I ssem to rememebr that SD cards implement a form of SPI. In which case you have to use SPI for that. > at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is > handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). Hmm.. I am nto convinced. Any microprocesosr/controller is goinf to have a 'natural' word size (8 bits, 16 bits, etc). The hardware SPI interface is goign to trasnfer in chunks of that size -- you write a byte, or whatever to a particualr I/O register and it sends it (or part of it). If you bit-bang it, you will be shifitng the data in one of the procesor registers, again of a definted size. So what I am sayign is that if you have an 8 bit processor and want to talk to a 12 bit DAC, you are essnetially goign to ahve ot load 2 bytes into the SPI interface. It may only send 4 bits of one of said bytes, of course. That;'s no better or worse than having to send 2 bytes to an I2C interface . > > I2C, however, uses in-band addressing so it saves board space and I/O > pins over SPI. YEs, that;'s the main reason I think it's more elegant. The separate chip selects ot each SPI device are somethign fo a pain. > So, while I personally prefer I2C, I believe it is incorrect to > consider SPI to be inferior, since it they both have their strengths and > weaknesses. The industry agrees, as both have been around for decades > and are still considered de-facto standards for local low-speed > communications. (I first used I2C on a Philips 87C751 microcontroller on > a gov't related project in 1991, and it was well-established even then!) About when I was using it to talk to Philips teletext ICs, etc :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:45:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:45:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 01:27:45 pm Message-ID: > Indeed, let's see you access an SDHC card using I2C at, say, 20MHz. And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:48:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:48:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 30, 12 01:38:56 pm Message-ID: > What do you consider a "high security lock"? Abloy :-) More seriously, a high secruity lock will have hardened stteel parts so it can't be sawn or drilled (easily). It will be dififcult to pick, either due to the design (the Abloy sidebar mechansim) or anti-picking fetures. In the case of a padlock, there will be limited spare cound the chackle so you can't get a crowbar in. Any lock can be picked, any material can be cut or ground through. THe idea is to make 'chummy' desicde that some other building is an easier target :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:52:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:52:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 02:28:31 pm Message-ID: > Okay, so if it's a capacitor, is it likely to be one of the SMT cans > or one of the rectangular SMT tantalums? What area of the board > (quadrant) is most likely to have the failing component? Can you > furnish any component designators? > > Apple service guides won't even tell you what the various LSI chips > do, much less their pinouts or specifications. The "if it doesn't > work, thow it away" mentality of Apple that I love so much... > I'vm supposed ot be the one who moans that serice manuals are useless now, that schematics don't exist and that board-swapping is evil. Are you after my job :-) Mroe seriosuly, can you name a present-day computer where the manufactuers do supply schemmaitcs, dater on ASCIs, and the like? I have no love whatesocer of Apple products, but they are no worse (or better) than anyone else in this respect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:57:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <6B0C9DDA9E454486BA7318D4ACD08872@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Jun 30, 12 10:29:52 pm Message-ID: > > In the UK RS will sell you all the bits needed, and when you order it lists > a few but I can't remember if it included everything. I ordered an SD Card > with OS installed. I can't remember if I was offered the USB keyboard but I > did order the 4gb card with OS installed. Right.,.. Having looked on the web a bit more, I've now seen the schemaitc and the data sheet on most of the main IC ('SoC') o nthe Rpi. And I've read that a printed user manual is going to be available. I think the Rpi was released before it was ready. When it first came out there was no schematic. There was no preloaded SD card avaialable that I could find. And so on. Things have chenaged, I wil lagree, but IMHO this should all have been avaiable when the product was anounced. It also seems to still be the case that demand exceeds supply and that uou can;t just go and get one. This is a major turn-off for me. One thign that still seems ot be missing (but it appears people are workign on it) are routines ot talke to the GPIO fetures. I would have expected a library with routines to send/receive data to I2C nad SPI peripherals, etc. One other quesiton. Is there a linux devief driver for the 'UART'? Can you acess it as /dev/tty1 or wahtever? Heck, can you ru nthis thing with a serial termain as a console? :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:07:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:07:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jul 1, 12 10:32:45 am Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > I posted this note on Vintage Computer Forums, and thought I'd see if > anyone could help here too. > > T actually an acceptable looking TRS-80 Model 1 monitor I snagged for $3 > but I figure the principles are the same regardless. Actually ,the original Model 1 monitor is somewhat unonventional. There were 2 versiosn of the M1 montiro sold in the UK. The origianl one has a white scren and 2 knobs and the video input cable in a horizotnal row at hte bottom right. The knobs are 'B' (brightness) and 'C' (contrast). The cable comes through a hole convenientyl labeleld 'V' for video, buit iot was origianlly (see below) a volume control The later version, which I know nothing about, still has a white CRT, but with a green filter over the entire front of the unit. The controls are still to thew right of the CRT, but about halfway down the case, not at the bottom. OK, back to the origianl one, which I do know something about. It's actually based on an RCA mains-powered portable TV. That's the thing that had a volume cotnrol. The origninl TV was 115V only and had a live chassis (the chassis was connected to one side of the mains). The modification consisitend of not fittign the tuner, IF strip or audio circuitry (much of that was on a plug-in PCB, forutnately). That PCB was replaced by a PCB with an optoisolator circuit on it so that the video inptu (and thus the comptuer) could be earthed. One oddity was that the input suide of the optoisolator needed a 5V power supply, this came from the computer. Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr video ampliifier. > It's dead. No raster and no glow in the tube neck. The board does heat uo > though and there is that smell of old electronics being startled awake What heats up? > after many years. I've done no tests yet, but I have Sam's Facts for the > model 1, and they provide a troubleshooting guide for the monitor and say > what voltages should be on cetain components. I suspect something to do > with the AC power supply of maybe horizontal sweep. Some faulty power > transistor maybe? Quite possibly. > > What I would appreciate from anyone who knows, is a link to a page or doc > which explains how composite B/W monitors work. The Sam's document is great > from the perspective of troubleshooting detail but it does assume you know, > conceptually, just what's going on. I don't and I'd like to get some > understanding before I start poking around. I suspect it's asusmed you know how small monochrome TVs work :-). Seriosuly , a book on TV serviisng will explain much of waht you need. > > Incidently the SAM's fact PDF covers the 110V version while I have a 240V > one. There are some differences, one of which is there appears to be no > fuses in the AC circuits! The main difference is the isolating trasnformer, shwich si separately mounted i nthe case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:38:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:38:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 1, 12 03:33:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 June 2012 19:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > True. But a prodcut I can't use is surely a total waste of money. > > > > IMHO documentation is not an option, it's essential. If you can't work > > out how to use something, it's *(by defintion) useless. > [...] > > To answer those of your points that I feel that I usefully can: > > Documentation - yes, it does have some. It's online, i.e., on the WWW. > This is the 21st century; that is how things are done now. Well, that ius nto a change for the better :-). However, it does appear as though a printed manual/tutorial wil leb avaialbe. How complete it is I don't know. Of course all tahts really needed is to have the startup, etc instructions as ap rinted manual and then to have all the other docuemtnation on the (supplied) SD card with the OS. Once you;'ve got it running you can read the programing, interfacing, etc docs. > > Yes, it does at the moment expect you to have a PC and Web access > already. This is not, *at this stage*, a stand-alone computer. This is AS I siad in another message, it appears it was (as ever) released before it's finished. Another related thing is that it was rumoured that it woudl ahve na I2S (Inter IC Sound) port. The current versions don;t, and from readong soem web pages I could alsomst think it was becuase they wired up the wrong pins on the SoC... > the early, developers/hackers version of the product. AIUI, there will > subsequently be a more polished, complete release, in a case, with a > finished, optimised OS and so on. > > OTOH, for embedded projects and the like, this version is more > suitable as you don't have to buy all the bits. Agreeed. I can see reasosn why yuo'd want the baesd board with no extras. IMHO both should be available -- ther board on its own amd a complete plug-n-go ssytem > > As for why not to use a PC: > * New PCs are expensive And you, and others, keep tellign me I can find them for free. Those amchiens, if they exist, would surely be OK for learing to program. You cnat' have it both ways ;-) > * PCs are elaborate with many moving parts & require expert maintenance Err,um... I keep on saying that I cma not clever enough to maintain a PC, you keep sayign I am. Please be consistent. > * PCs do not tolerate stressful environments well > * PCs have active cooling - spinning fans to chop little fingers, Have you ever man aged to chop a finger with a PC cooling fan? > mains voltages that are dangerous, slots that could have foreign > bodies inserted into them, etc. And the Rpi needs power, The SMPSU you might use to run it -- e.g. a mobile phone charger or soemthing -- has mains in it. > * PCs are large and bulky AS are the keyboard and more particularly the display needed for the Rpi > * Because of their bulk and fragility, and the need for expertise to > refurbish them, old PCs are not easily obtained and shipped to where > children might readily have access to them. hang on... Erarlier on you agreed you need web access to get the manuals for the Rpi. How do yuo propose doign that iwthotu a PC? > * PCs require lots of electricity to run As does the monitor for the Rpi. > * Some of the complexity issues could be solved by a single-disk Linux > distro that provided a range of simple tools, but the vastly > heterogenous nature of PC hardware means this is hard to implement. Come again? I am running oen of the oddest PC-based linux boxes around, and one thing I have not had nay problems with are the language compilers. > * Also, Linux scares off nontechnical users who only know Windows; > this is less of a problem with a computer that cannot run Windows at > all. Ah... Soldering is claimed to be difficult and puts off non-technical people. Bt this is not a problem for a computer that only comes as a pile of ICs ad a bnare board :-) > > > Openness: I have not called it open. Others may have. There are True, you didn't say it was 'open' bet plenty of others have. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:14:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:14:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jul 1, 12 12:51:47 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Fred, > > Thanks. Yes, I do have another monitor I've been using for the Model 1 > (see http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/trs-80-model1.htm) , > but I'm slowly acquiring the full system. So it's not that I just want a > working system, I'm wanting a working Tandy badged system. > > >In which case, the ancestral RCA information probably doesn't give you > >any additional help. > > No, actually it might. The SAMS document, although it has a I don;t think it will be much help to you. Most service manuals -- for anything -- are written assumign you know the principles of that sort of device. A TV serivce manual is not going to explain how a voltage regualtor circuit, or the hroizontal output stage, or whatever sorks. Most of the time official service manuals for such things are little more than the schematic, the parts lists, and setup/alignment data (for whcih it's assumed you know how to use the test gear). > troubleshooting guide, seems to assume a knowledge of how a monitor > actually works. What I'm looking for is this generic higher level kind of > knowledge. I could just follow the troubleshooting guide through step by > step but my monitor is 240V, while the SAMS guide is for 110V. There are If this is the monitor that the SMAS book covers, and the one I am thinking of, it's actually a 110V monitor in all countries. It's jus that you and I have them with a stepdown transofemr on the mains input. > bound to be small differences. If I know, conceptually, what's suppose to > be happening, it will help. I might also stop me electrocuting myself! (-: That's more likely on he 110V model, which as I said was live chassis. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:42:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:42:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> from "Oliver Lehmann" at Jul 1, 12 05:28:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I'm doing a circuit diagram of a SA1100 Disc Controller built > with a Z80 CPU. On the controller, I have two blue devices > lables "Z80 CLK DRV" on the board, and HPI-1014-782 on the > device itself. the "-782" is the date of production most > likely. I have no idea about the pinout of those devices nor > do I know where to finde datasheets to make a component for > my CAD software. I cna't help wit hthe pinout, but I can guess the function. IIRC the clock input of the S80 is not actually TTL compatible, it needs to be pulled up to the 5V line.My guess is that thes are clock driver cirucits for this signal, they take a TTL level singal in and give out the genuine 5V signal for the Z80 clock input. How may pins do they have, and how many can you easily trace on the board? I am guessin there are at least power, ground, an output to the Z80 clcok pin and a TTL level input. Any others? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:12:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:12:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FEF12F1.3060301@acc.umu.se> from "=?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=" at Jun 30, 12 04:53:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell skrev 2012-06-30 00:15: > >> Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed > >> instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a > >> silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and > >> synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board. > >> > >> But I do emphasize the "might" here... > > Actually, I'd be very likely to approve of it if : > > > > It came complete, that is to say I could just plug it in and go without > > having to pay to download and print manuals, download the OS, etc > > Which operating system should it come preloaded with then? Debian=20 Any. AS you and others have said you can now get pre-loaded cards with a bootable OS on them. I don't believe that was the case when the thing was announced, My point is that you shouldn't _have_ to download anything if you don't want to. It should be possible to just buy a 'complete' system, plug it together and go. I also agree that the board should be avaialble on its own, with no OS-on-a-card, no manual, etc, for people who want to have more than one and use them as embedded systems. It would eb silly to ahve to pay for multiple manuals then. > A printed "Raspberry Pi users guide" is almost redy, they take preorders=20 > now. Better to buy one single book than one with each Pi. I can see them=20 Agreed on both points. _When_ the Rpi was announced, there was no mention of pre-loaed OSes on SD cards, no mention of a printed manual, and the availability of a schematic was uncertain. I looked at what was said then and decided that in that state the Rpi was certainly not for me. As a result I stopped looking at it. Now that things have changed, I would reconsider it . But I can't keep looking at products that don't interest me in case they've changed to soemthign that does. There are simply too many products out there. > > 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are > > they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used fr= > om > > C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS). > > 17 GPIO lines, individually selectable direction and many with secondary=20 > functions as UART, SPI, PWM, I2C... YEs, I read the spec. I do deel that the support for these is pretty minimal so far. I would like to see device drivers, libraries, etc to use them as applicablle. > More GPIO pins are available on other connectors. Only 3.3V levels, no=20 > 5V tolerant I/O. But 3.3V and 5V is available on the GPIO connector. Sure. And buffering/level-shiftign thenm is not a major problem. I would want to buffer them anyway in most applciations, if only becasue the main 'chip' on an Rpi is probably difficutl to get other htan on an Rpi, is certainly next-to-impossible to replace (BGA), and so on. I'd rather have to change a SOIC or DIL buffer IC. I understand the const reasons, but given that this is a user port, and given that using it appears ot be covered in the printed manual (simple interfacing, etc), I wonder just how many Rpi will have the main 'chip' blown up by newbies. Nothign wrong with making mistakes and blowing ICs, of course, that's how you learn. But I would ratehr it was something that could be easily replaced. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:25:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:25:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 1, 12 06:03:02 pm Message-ID: > >> at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is > >> handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). > > > > Hmm.. I am not convinced. > > You're not convinced that SPI supports multiple word widths?? I can > show you the datasheet of the microcontroller in my current design, > where it's configurable, if you like. No, of course I am, convinced of that. I have read the data sheets for SPI decvices. I am not convinced that having arbitrary word lengths (which might not even be a multiple of 4 bits) is an advantage. > > > Any microprocesosr/controller is goinf to have > > a 'natural' word size (8 bits, 16 bits, etc). The hardware SPI interface > > is goign to trasnfer in chunks of that size -- you write a byte, or > > whatever to a particualr I/O register and it sends it (or part of it). If > > you bit-bang it, you will be shifitng the data in one of the procesor > > registers, again of a definted size. > > No, that's not at all how it works Tony. Or rather, that's perhaps a > suboptimal way to look at it. My particular example is the > Philips...erm, "NXP" (grumble) LPC2000-series ARM7 processors, which I'm > using all over the place now. They are 32-bit processors, and their SPI > controllers can be configured (by setting bits in very well-documented > registers) for 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, or 16 bits per transfer. > You write to the SPI data register, which is sixteen bits wide, and just > treat the other bits as "don't cares". Sure. I would have expected it to work that way. But what do you do if you, say, have a 20 bit device? 10 bits at a time? That means repackign the 20 bit word. Yo ucan't do 16 bits and then 4 bits (apparently), and if you could you'd still ahve to reprogram the word length between the parts of a single word. I'd prefer to just send an integral number of bytes (or words, or whatever) and have the device ignore the unusued data. That's waht I2C does for 12 bit devices AFAIK. > As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a > "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have > dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:29:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:29:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 1, 12 03:06:27 pm Message-ID: > > On 1 Jul 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos > > useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) > > Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? Not particualrly, for3 main reasons : 1) From what you say in another message, this came fro ma standard application note, and I can look that up if I ever need it. 2) I don't read Verilog (or any other hardwre description language). Now, if you send me a schematic doing the whole thing with 74xx ICs, I'll make sense of it :-) [1] 3) It's irrelevant anyway. I don;t dispute you can make an itnerfce between SPI and I2C. Heck, I've got an ES232 to I2C (as a master on the I2C) interfce here. But you are stil ltalking I2C to the teletext IC, which is not suprising. You cna't sensibly do anythign else... [1] I wonder what the bneast way to do thsis would be? Off the top of my head, soem kind of microdoed ssytem or complex stat emachine (which at this level are the same thing, of course) would be my first guess. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:32:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:32:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 1, 12 03:00:30 pm Message-ID: > > The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has > > no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. Does 'n measurable ohm' mean a short (0 ohms) or open (infinte, overrange, etc)? > > Unless there's an external pullup resistor, I can't imagine that this > is an OC output or that the drive is capacitively coupled Did you > try the diode (high voltage) setting on your ohmmeter? If the otuptu is a totem pole circuit, or a PNP/NPN complementary driver with no pull-up resisotrs, and built from discrete compoennts so no parasitic diodes, is it certain that an ohmmeter iwll turn on at elast on of the transisotrs? I don't think it is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 14:02:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:02:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jul 2, 12 10:18:35 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > It is the original version with the knobs at the bottom. Right. SOmewhere I have the Radio Shack service manaul for that. Of ocurse it's the 115V model, but the modifications infolved adding the step-down transformer between the power switch and the input to the rest of the unit and not much else. > > >Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V > >countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis > >is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. > > Ah ha, I saw the step down there but I didn't realise it was also an > isolating transformer. That has answered a question I had about a "hot > chassis". Yes., The US version is hot chassis (and nasty to work on as a result), the European (and I guess Australian/New Zealand) model is not. > > >With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. > >The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr video > >ampliifier. > > Ok. Thanks. I don't know what an optoisolator and IF strip means. As I Ah. I'll explain those termins in aomnet, I think this tells me that you don't need the official service manual yet. I don't think you're stupid, but I do thing you need to learn some more electronics before you can make sense of such manuals. Service manuals are written for people who understand how whatever sort of device works and just need the information on how _this particular one_ works. Te excat details of it, the schematic, parts lists, etc. Service manuals anre not, normally, tutorials in electronics. An alanlogy that might help. If I was servicing a car, I would try to get the factory workshop manau land sue that as my reference. But if we consider chekcing the spark plugs, that sort of manual will tell you where they are, it'll explain any odd thignsi n removign and fitting them (like you have to remove first), it'll give the correct gap and the tighening torque. What it won't do is eplain how to measure nad set the gap, how to use a torque wrench, or anything like that. Now, as for 'IF strip' and 'Optoisolaotr'. Let's cover those in that order. A TV set is basically a special type of radio receiver. At a high level, the incoming signa lfro mteh aerial is ahdnled much as in a radio set, and turned into a composite video signal and an audio signal. The audio signal is amplified and det to the speaker, the composite video signal is processed by the second main part of the TV which is essentially a video monitor. Now, a radio set basically consists of a tunable filter to pick out the signal that you want from all the radio signals out there, amplifiers ot make it large enoguh to be useful and a demodulator to extrace the wanted ifnroamtion from that signal. The problem is the filtering, really, You have to be able to adjust it to pick up different datations, but you then need several filters that can be tuned together, one for each stage of the amplification. Making all those filters come ot the same frequency all alopng the tuning scale is a major problem. The cure is soemthing called a 'Supersonic Heterodyne', normally shortened ot 'Superhet' receiver. In this, the incloming signal is mixed with a signal from an oscillaotr (known as the 'local oscillator') and the beat frequecny which has a frequesnce of the difference between the incoming siangal and hte lcoal oscillator is filtered out, amplified, and used. Now the trick is tha the oscillator frequency is varied when you tune the set. so the differnece frequency is always the same. Thus the fitlers for tht are fixed, they are set at manufacture. Yo can have ans many staegs as you (sensibly) like. The diffenrce frequency is known as the 'Intermediate Frequency' or 'IF' ebcausew it is between the incoming signal and the freuqency of the output of the demodulator (the information you actually want to extract). The amplifiers for this are, not supriisngly called 'IF amplifiers', the whole circuit is commonly known as the 'IF strip'. In the particular TV that was modified to make this monitor, the 'tuner' -- the aerial input circuit, the lcoal oscilaltor and the mixer circuit -- was a separate module fitted ot the case behidn that large blanking plate. It fet the IF signal to the IF amplifiers, which were assembled on a plug-in PCB that fitted into the main chassis. THis PCB also contaiend the demodulator and much of te audio circuitry. THe rest of the chasis was essentialyl a monitor (this layout might be why this particular TV was chosen for the convfersion). The conversion to make this TV into a motnro therefore cosnsited of : Remvoign (or never fitting) the tuner module Removing (or never fitting) the plug-in PCB with IF amplifiers,m demodulator, etc on it. This is the 'IF strip' I refered to Doing the same with those few remaining audio components on the chassis. This inmcluded the volume cotnrol which would have come throug hthe hole labelled 'V' on the front of the cabinet. It was a bit of good fortuen that 'V' also could eb 'video' :-) Finding soem device to feed composite video from the TRS-80 into the remainign 'monitor seciton' of the TV. THe last leads me on to the tem 'opto isolator'. The TV chassis, at least in the US model was directly connected to the mains. Therefore nothign driectly conencted to it could be earthed (groudned). You certianly wouldn;t want a computer where the logic was effecively conencted ot the mains in this way, you couldn't safely connect up a normal priner, for example. So waht is needed is some kind of isolation so that the monitor section can remain connected to the power line but also the computer can be earthed. The way this was done was somethign called an opto-isolator. Conceptally it's very simple/ It's an LED and a phototranssitor so mtht the LED shines on the phototranssitor. It looks like a 6 pin IC. THe more current you pass throug the LED, the more light (actuallly likely to be IR) hits the phototransistor, so that conducts harder too. It's not very linear in tis simplest form, but in this case it doesn't ened to be. The computer can drive the LED side, the phototransistor can be connected to the (hot chassi) monitor section, and the computer's video signal will end up gettign to the monitor. But as the only thing linking them is that tiny beam of light in optosiolator, there is no driect electrical connection. You can eart hthe comptuer with no probkems. AS I said, that's for the 110V model whcih is hot chassis. The 220V modeul has the isolatiing transofmrer on the mains input. It's no longer hot chassis, there is no ened for isolation on the video input. So in this model there is no optoisolator. Just a simple transistor amplfiier circuit. > said, I need to read up about the mode of operations of these things. This > would explain why the 110V schematic doesn't show exactly what is going on > in my monitor...even the AC circuit seems a little different. I'll take >From what I rememember from workign on my Model 1 monitor, the scheamtic of the main part of the chasiss is pretty muc hthe same. The differences are that video inpotu bvoard (which is very differne, on the other hand the 230V oen is some simple you cna trace out a schematic in about 5 minutes) and the isertion of that mains isolating transfoemr. > some pictures to illustrate. At the moment I have verified that the step > down transformer is working ok so 110V is indeed getting to the board. > It's then that the circuit diagram seems to diverge from what I've got in > some ways. I thought that the stuff fed fro mthe 110V inptu was the same in both versions. The rectifier, regualtor, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 14:09:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:09:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jul 1, 12 08:39:40 pm Message-ID: > > > I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is > > ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk > > line. > > Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to Vcc > plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? I would be suporised if this thing drew a steady 1.6A from the 5V line, which would imply that this '3 ohms' is not a fixed resistor. And most of the tiem (read : except for very odd cirucits), things draw less current when yoy measure their resistance with a DMM. Are htese reisstnace measurements essentially the same if you swap the probes round? Also, is this with the device on the PCB or removed? If the former, then I could well beleive that the 'resistance' between the supply lines was 3 ohms... -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 1 00:22:57 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEFB24E.1080206@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Jun 30, 12 10:13:34 pm" Message-ID: <201207010522.q615MvUW12779654@floodgap.com> > > > Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested? > > > > Well, you have me there. I didn't think that NuBus Macs had open > > firmware. > > They don't. It arrived with New World Macs. Actually, it started with the beige PCI Macs, which were Old World. However, New World OpenFirmware is considerably less buggy. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you had any brains at all, you'd be dangerous. -------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 1 00:26:21 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <8A3217E6-B672-4386-95D9-C5A26944ABC5@rachors.com> from George Rachor at "Jun 30, 12 01:33:30 am" Message-ID: <201207010526.q615QL4O14352554@floodgap.com> > Starting to sound like power supply? Yup. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is not enough. --------------------------------------------------- From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 00:52:17 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:52:17 +1200 Subject: H745 Power Supply Repair Message-ID: Continuing to make progress on the 11/04. The H7441 supplies are still to be tested. The 24000uf input capacitor is faulty on one and while waiting on the replacement I also noticed one of the 1200uf capacitors in the output CLC filter was leaking. Now waiting for parts to replace both CLC filter capacitors (560uf and 1200uf) in each supply before I power them up. Moved on to the H745. The two output capacitors test file but the big 31000uf electrolytic after the rectifier is faulty and needs replacement. Any suggested on a replacement other than same spec... it seems a bit highly spec'ed for what this module is doing. Regards Andrew From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 1 01:17:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 23:17:45 -0700 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, , <4FEFBFD6.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FEFEB89.90102@bitsavers.org> On 6/30/12 9:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jun 2012 at 20:11, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Apple used. AWACS was made by Crystal Semiconductor. Bit clock is pin >> 42, sync is pin 43 and data in is pin 44. Headphone out L,R,Common >> pins 27,25,28 Speaker out L,R,Common pins 29,31,30 > > Is that the 44 pin PLCC labeled CS4217-KL with the Crystal logo on > it? I was wondering about it--a datasheet didn't turn up, but I > easily found datasheets for the CS4216 and CS4218, whose pinouts seem > to be a country mile from the 4217. > looks like there are some on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CRYSTAL-CS4217-KL-EP-IC-16-BIT-MULTIMEIDA-STEREO-AUDIO-CODED-22-PIN-PLCC-/140606850353 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 01:52:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 23:52:02 -0700 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEFEB89.90102@bitsavers.org> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEFEB89.90102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FEF9122.24419.36C46A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2012 at 23:17, Al Kossow wrote: > looks like there are some on ebay > http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CRYSTAL-CS4217-KL-EP-IC-16-BIT-MULTIMEIDA-ST > EREO-AUDIO-CODED-22-PIN-PLCC-/140606850353 I'll keep that in mind if some 'scope work shows that to be the problem. Thanks, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 1 09:49:39 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 08:49:39 -0600 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger" writes: > does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text > terminal. I found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of > rebadged equipment? Given how weird it sounds, pictures would help. Usually you can identify a rebadge quicker from a picture than you can from the rebadged model number. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 10:28:33 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 17:28:33 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV Message-ID: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I'm doing a circuit diagram of a SA1100 Disc Controller built with a Z80 CPU. On the controller, I have two blue devices lables "Z80 CLK DRV" on the board, and HPI-1014-782 on the device itself. the "-782" is the date of production most likely. I have no idea about the pinout of those devices nor do I know where to finde datasheets to make a component for my CAD software. Heare you'll find a picture of such devices I mean (different board, but same devices) http://www.picfront.org/d/8Ik2 Any hints of what this is, how the pinout is, and where I can find a functional description of this device would be welcomed. Greetings, Oliver From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 1 10:30:37 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:30:37 +0200 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01cd579e$7ab146a0$7013d3e0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 juni 2012 19:56 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration > > Hi all, > > does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text terminal. I > found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of rebadged > equipment? > > Regards, > Wolfgang Hi Wolfgang, The terminals are sold by Philips Data Systems Apeldoorn. On this site (in Dutch) you can get in contact with former employees from Philips Apeldoorn.. http://www.vgp-apeldoorn.nl/ If you can read Dutch this site will tell you a bit of the history of Philips Data Systems. http://www.intact-reunies.nl/nostalgie/23.html?showall=1 Maybe it will help you any further. -Rik From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 10:35:05 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 17:35:05 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://www.picfront.org/d/8Ik2 Pinout seems to be: 1 VCC 2 ?NC? 3 input 4 ?NC? 5 GND 6 output I also have found a Z8000-Schematic where the symbols is: |'. _____ ----o| '>------------------<_____| 3|.' 6 CLOCK_A Z80A DRVR From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:14:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:14:04 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> Here's an HP description from http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_dio/98642_HP- DIO_Four_Channel_Mux_ERD_Sep84.pdf (PDF page 24) "The PHI signal is output from the Z80 clock driver circuitry, which is a schottky clamped circuit using a PNP-NPN transistor (push- pull) pair to obtain the required current and waveform to drive the Z80 devices. " Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:21:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:21:41 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF016A5.20755.81970C@cclist.sydex.com> This, from Zilog, would seem to cinch the question of what's in that hybrid: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/35641.pdf PDF page 149, figure 48. Looks to be the same as on the Gemini board. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 11:37:22 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:37:22 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > "The PHI signal is output from the Z80 clock driver circuitry, > which is a schottky clamped circuit using a PNP-NPN transistor (push- > pull) pair to obtain the required current and waveform to drive the > Z80 devices. " This sounds right, yeah > Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: > > http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf Where exactly? Was not able to find it... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:58:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:58:51 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 18:37, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: > > > > http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf > > Where exactly? Was not able to find it... Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms to the ground connection. I suspect that HP didn't deviate too far from the recommended Zilog circuit. --Chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 12:19:16 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 19:19:16 +0200 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text > terminal. I found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of > rebadged equipment? Some Philips terminals are rebadged Hazeltines. Does it look like the picture on page 2 of this manual: http://p800.wikispaces.com/file/view/p800m_sec2_prt3.pdf? If you ever decide to get rid of it, and if you're not too far from the Netherlands, please let me know, I have some old Philips minicomputers and would love to have a terminal with a Philips badge to go with it. Cheers, Camiel. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 15:10:05 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 22:10:05 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver > should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms > to the ground connection. The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 17:00:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:00:30 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 22:10, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver > > should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms > > to the ground connection. > > The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has > no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. Unless there's an external pullup resistor, I can't imagine that this is an OC output or that the drive is capacitively coupled Did you try the diode (high voltage) setting on your ohmmeter? --Chuck From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 17:03:25 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:03:25 +0200 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry Message-ID: Hi all, I would just like to inform you guys, if you haven't read or heard about it, is that my entry being running an actual MicroPDP-11/83 online 24/7 with 2.11BSD on the internet, is now up. Sure, there are still some minor things to sort out (like the order of name resolving in libc apparently :)) and probably some other stuff, but I already have 30 registered users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool Zork :) If you want to join in on the fun; http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/retro2012.html re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:08:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:08:02 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 06:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver >>> should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms >>> to the ground connection. >> >> The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has >> no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. > > Unless there's an external pullup resistor, I can't imagine that this > is an OC output or that the drive is capacitively coupled Did you > try the diode (high voltage) setting on your ohmmeter? I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk line. Z80s are very easy to design with, but their clock drive does require just a bit of special attention. I'd think doing it with a purpose-built hybrid is really a very expensive example of complete overkill; worst case just pump it through a 2N3904 running OC with a 330 ohm pullup. Wouldn't you think? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:13:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:13:46 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 12:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: >>> >>> http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf >> >> Where exactly? Was not able to find it... > > Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably > very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock circuit I've ever seen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jul 1 17:18:35 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 10:18:35 +1200 Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tony, It is the original version with the knobs at the bottom. >Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V >countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis >is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. Ah ha, I saw the step down there but I didn't realise it was also an isolating transformer. That has answered a question I had about a "hot chassis". >With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. >The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr video >ampliifier. Ok. Thanks. I don't know what an optoisolator and IF strip means. As I said, I need to read up about the mode of operations of these things. This would explain why the 110V schematic doesn't show exactly what is going on in my monitor...even the AC circuit seems a little different. I'll take some pictures to illustrate. At the moment I have verified that the step down transformer is working ok so 110V is indeed getting to the board. It's then that the circuit diagram seems to diverge from what I've got in some ways. I appreciate the help. This project has to stop-start as I've got a few committments in my life right now, but I'll pick it up and try and make progress where I can. Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 17:57:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:57:58 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 18:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock > circuit I've ever seen. Yup--you'd think that a 74S04 would have done the trick. But the Zilog manual cited shows pretty much the same thing--the input feeding a resistive divider to drive a PNP-NPN "totem pole" combination. The only really significant difference is that Zilog uses a 10K pullup on the output. So I'm guessing that the blue lump is very much like that. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 18:10:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 19:10:46 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 06:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock >> circuit I've ever seen. > > Yup--you'd think that a 74S04 would have done the trick. I know for a fact that a 74S04 will do the trick, as will an HCT04 with a 330-ohm pullup, as I have both of those configs running on two of my SBCs here. Man some guys just like to bloat the BOM I guess. > But the > Zilog manual cited shows pretty much the same thing--the input > feeding a resistive divider to drive a PNP-NPN "totem pole" > combination. The only really significant difference is that Zilog > uses a 10K pullup on the output. Bizarre. > So I'm guessing that the blue lump is very much like that. Probably. Back in those days the communication resources between designers were nowhere near as effective as they are today, leading to many more instances of "designing in a vacuum" with just the datasheets to go by, and nothing else. I don't miss that AT ALL. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 1 19:22:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA at avocado.salatschuessel.net>, > <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3 at cclist.sydex.com>, > <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA at avocado.salatschuessel.net> > <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E at cclist.sydex.com> Whatever generated this is at least somewhat broken; the result is non-syntactic. You might want to fix it.... > The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output > has no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. Does "no measurable ohm" mean immeasurably high (ie, measures like an open circuit), or immeasurably low (ie, measures like a short)? Mouse From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 1 19:39:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is > ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk > line. Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to Vcc plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jul 1 19:48:14 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:48:14 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5F886F04-957F-4869-B32B-ED6C25AE76A3@shiresoft.com> On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is >> ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk >> line. > > Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to Vcc > plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? Really? Do you not want to re-think that? TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 1 20:07:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <5F886F04-957F-4869-B32B-ED6C25AE76A3@shiresoft.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5F886F04-957F-4869-B32B-ED6C25AE76A3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201207020107.VAA17564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to >> Vcc plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? > Really? Do you not want to re-think that? Well, it's unlikely to be a simple three ohms. However, it easily could represent the effective resistance of the rest of the chip - or, more likely, the voltage dropped as small amounts of current leak through various paths, translated into a resistance measurement. Or, again depending on the details of the meter technology and how the measurement is done, it could be that the 327 ohm measurement does not represent 327 ohms of resistance but rather the forward drop of one of that input's protection diodes. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 1 20:07:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 19:07:48 -0600 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Camiel Vanderhoeven writes: > Some Philips terminals are rebadged Hazeltines. Does it look like the > picture on page 2 of this manual: > http://p800.wikispaces.com/file/view/p800m_sec2_prt3.pdf? That would be either a Hazeltine 1000 or Hazeltine 1200 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 1 21:58:06 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 21:58:06 -0500 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF10E3E.3080609@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:42:31 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Z80 CLK DRV Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain I cna't help wit hthe pinout, but I can guess the function. IIRC the clock input of the S80 is not actually TTL compatible, it needs to be pulled up to the 5V line.My guess is that thes are clock driver cirucits for this signal, they take a TTL level singal in and give out the genuine 5V signal for the Z80 clock input. I used to do a lot of Z80 designs, most with classic Zilog Z80s, but also some later ones with Harris CMOS Z80 clones for battery-powered applications. I don't recall a lot of difficulty with the clock generation, I used classic 74xx chips. Generally I started with a faster xtal oscillator and divided down with something like a 74HC161, so maybe that was all that was needed to get the right clock swing. Jon From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jul 1 22:16:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: TeoZ The problem with that auction is there are no 800K floppy drives (which are hard to get these days), all the cards are gone (you need to have a video card on that model), and you are missing the HD. I would guess somebody wanted the guts and software but didn't want to pay to ship the whole unit. C: Why would you want 800k drives? The 1.44 mb superdrives read all the old formats. Video cards aren't that uncommon (had a few, but somebody tossed a bunch of my stuff out). SCSC h/d's are easy enough to find. ?Good to hear I'll be able to bring my old IIx and IIcx back to life. Just capacitors, and big electrolytics I think too. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 1 22:32:22 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:32:22 -0400 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: Re: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay "C: Why would you want 800k drives? The 1.44 mb superdrives read all the old formats. Video cards aren't that uncommon (had a few, but somebody tossed a bunch of my stuff out). SCSC h/d's are easy enough to find. Good to hear I'll be able to bring my old IIx and IIcx back to life. Just capacitors, and big electrolytics I think too." The Mac II can only use 800K drives, you need a IIx or newer for Superdrives. While I have stacks of Nubus cards and SCSI drives most people don't, finding them now is much harder (or more expensive) then it was for me 10 years ago. Reworking the old Aluminum metal can capacitors will revive a system IF the leaking goo hasn't destroyed anything on the board. I have a dead 840AV that has other issues then just capacitors, but have fixed many other systems that didn't have other damage. P.S. The ROM SIMM on a IIx might need removed and cleaned if the machine doesn't boot (after you replace the batteries and capacitors as needed). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jul 1 22:54:22 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1341201262.28225.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: TeoZ P.S. The ROM SIMM on a IIx might? need removed and cleaned if the machine doesn't boot (after you replace the batteries and capacitors as needed). Where can you find the right battery? ? And incidentally what would it take to upgrade a II to utilize superdirves. Heck I thought my SE had one, but I'm not positive. Is it simply a rom upgrade, or is it a function of the hardware? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 1 23:07:51 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:07:51 -0400 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1341201262.28225.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55F60BE8E7A440A58237495D9B35B598@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: Re: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay ________________________________ "Where can you find the right battery? And incidentally what would it take to upgrade a II to utilize superdirves. Heck I thought my SE had one, but I'm not positive. Is it simply a rom upgrade, or is it a function of the hardware?" The floppy controller chip is what needs changed on the SE, not sure if the one on the II is solderd on or removable ( I don't own a Mac II). The batteries (2 needed) for the II are 3.6V 1/2AA axial leads (soldered to the motherboard unless it has been modified). New model IIx/IIfx etc have socketed batteries. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 2 01:33:39 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:33:39 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120702083339.Horde.veOKDaQd9PdP8UDDMYt95UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/01/2012 12:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably >> very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. > > Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock > circuit I've ever seen. It is a Zilog System 8000 board - what would you expect from Zilog to use? When they put such a circuit into their Z80 spec, they better eat their own food ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 01:59:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 02:59:06 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120702083339.Horde.veOKDaQd9PdP8UDDMYt95UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> <20120702083339.Horde.veOKDaQd9PdP8UDDMYt95UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF146BA.4020802@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 02:33 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >>> Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably >>> very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. >> >> Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock >> circuit I've ever seen. > > It is a Zilog System 8000 board - what would you expect from Zilog > to use? When they put such a circuit into their Z80 spec, they better > eat their own food ;) I suppose so! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From markbenson at mac.com Mon Jul 2 07:51:31 2012 From: markbenson at mac.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:51:31 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 4100 RCM Message-ID: <82CAFFD6-A45F-442C-A7AF-5BF9B70B72DF@mac.com> Does anyone know what the spec and polarity is of the 12V PSU port for the AlphaServer 4100 Remote Console. I'd like to be able to use it when the machine is offline. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 09:36:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:36:27 +0100 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I would just like to inform you guys, if you haven't read or heard > about it, is that my entry being running an actual MicroPDP-11/83 > online 24/7 with 2.11BSD on the internet, is now up. Sure, there are > still some minor things to sort out (like the order of name resolving > in libc apparently :)) and probably some other stuff, but I already > have 30 registered users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool > Zork :) > If you want to join in on the fun; http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/retro2012.html Hey, cool. Thanks for that. I wonder... I have a couple of long-term "projects" that might count... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 10:17:44 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 08:17:44 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, , <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com>,<4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ---snip--- > > Probably. Back in those days the communication resources between > designers were nowhere near as effective as they are today, leading to > many more instances of "designing in a vacuum" with just the datasheets > to go by, and nothing else. I don't miss that AT ALL. > > -Dave > Some of the app notes from the manufacture were wrong as well. I found an error in one of the notes for the 4040 Intel part. The reset was inverted relative to the original 4004 and needed an inverter to match the 4001 and 4002. They'd place a transistor between the 4040 and the other chips. The problem was that the 4040 would start running for 2 or three cycles before the 4001s were released. It wouldn't always reset right. In the app note, they said to put 3 or 4 NOPs at the begining of the code. This work most times but failed on about 5-10% of the boards I worked on while at Intel. It just require changing the order, release the 4001s first then the 4040. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 10:59:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:59:51 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4FF16307.3132.36A8CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 8:17, dwight elvey wrote: > Some of the app notes from the manufacture were wrong as well. Intel was pretty wild and wooly back in the 70s. I recall once hearing a stream of invective coming from the office next to mine. It seems that the guy had been presented with samples of the new Intel 8202 DRAM controller and the datasheets and app notes. If you took Intel's datasheet numbers and crunched them through the reference design that Intel provided, worst-case required DRAM with a negative access time... --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 2 11:09:51 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 18:09:51 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Mouse wrote: >> The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output >> has no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. > > Does "no measurable ohm" mean immeasurably high (ie, measures like an > open circuit), or immeasurably low (ie, measures like a short)? Input -> VCC 322 Ohm Input -> GND 319 Ohm VCC -> Input 327 Ohm GND -> Input 330 Ohm Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 2 11:41:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <17C5DA1D-B834-447C-8CF9-2E2521314187@gmail.com> from George Rachor at "Jun 30, 12 03:35:19 am" Message-ID: <201207021641.q62GfVlA6029466@floodgap.com> > After a few minutes plugged in.. (Battery still remove) we have gone back > to the original systems. led flashes on while power button is depressed, > The fans start briefly then slow back down. I hear the disk drive start > but no other activity_ Check the processor module. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- From rwiker at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 11:49:08 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 18:49:08 +0200 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>, <46DF6B8B-28AB-4867-B457-9B26C61E729C@gmail.com> <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com> <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C8E410C-A8D5-4A74-9EC9-31EF163405E0@gmail.com> On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:51 , Mark Benson wrote: > On 30 Jun 2012, at 02:38, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 29 Jun 2012 at 20:06, Mark Benson wrote: >> >> >>> Do you get sound from the external speaker port on the back? >> >> No, that's dead silent as well. > > Hmm... Try a PRAM Reset. Reboot the machine holding down Command(Apple)-Option(Alt)-P-R > > Do it 4 or 5 times for safety. It might just be the volume setting int he PRAM is confused. > > If that doesn't fix it it's almost certainly a failure in the audio section on the board, possibly a blown cap something similar. There is also something called a PMU or CUDA reset button somewhere on the motherboard, which may be a last-resort option. You need to be careful about pressing this as it should not be pressed more than once (I vaguely remember something about possibly damaging the motehrboard if you press it more than once). I had a PowerMac G5 which just died after being switched off for a couple of weeks while I was on holiday. As it was bought in Norway, it was covered by a 5 year warranty ("reklamasjonsrett"), so an Apple authorized repair centre spent a lot of time and spare parts trying to get it working again. They eventually gave up, and Apple gave me a brand new Mac Pro as a replacement. A happy ending, but it completely soured me on the G5 PowerMacs. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 11:50:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested Message-ID: I am looking for some help in the Chicago area. Very recently, an IBM mainframe old-timer passed away. He has some old manuals and so forth that the family would like to save, but they understandably are too busy. Of note is a 16 mm film concerning the release of OS/360, which was to go to CHM. So, if there is someone out there that could pick these items up (Woodridge, IL - a southwest suburb), I would appreciate it. Time may be short. Please let me know offlist. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 11:51:52 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:51:52 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) Message-ID: > So, if there is someone out there that could pick these items up > (Woodridge, IL - a southwest suburb), I would appreciate it. Time may > be short. Please let me know offlist. I just received a note saying this must be done today or tomorrow, as the family departs on Wednesday! -- Will From rwiker at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 12:01:20 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:01:20 +0200 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <2873C066-13D1-4352-8B27-16E8E51221F8@gmail.com> On Jun 29, 2012, at 21:04 , TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "mc68010" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:44 PM > Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay > > >> Too bad the important bits are missing but, I know how some of you out there love collecting the LISP related stuff. Maybe you could contact the seller and see if they can find them. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-II-M5000-Vintage-Mac-Desktop-Computer-System-For-Parts-No-Power-/110907296538 >> >> Here's a quick description http://www.jester.org/Projects/microExplorer/microexplorer.html > > Totally gutted, if you want to save money ask the seller to ship just the TI sticker. ;) > > Interesting... I have a TI microExplorer set in a Mac IIcx (or possibly IIci)... I don't have the sticker, though :-) I bought the board set in 2001 for the princely sum of $3 + sales tax - $3.24 in total, and the nice people at Weird Stuff Warehouse even gave me a big anti-static bag for it. From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Jul 2 12:03:58 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:03:58 +0200 Subject: Data General Power Supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF1D47E.1070701@acc.umu.se> Looks like the power supply for a Clariion disk rack. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clariion-Storage-Company-EMC-Power-Supply-005045508-/221042178727?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item337723faa7 I have 15-20 pieces that I pulled from unused systems a couple of years ago. Each power supply powers 10 hard disks via a back plane. Two supplies sits side by side behind the disks, one rotated 180 degrees. The white contact in the back powers the fans and the fan cassette with three fans connects to both power supplies. It's one of the most well designed systems I've ever seen. Everything seems to be redundant and hot swappable. The supplies I have doesn't have the white (ground?) conductors to the edge connector. I have some pictures if someone is interested in it. If anyone on this side of the Atlantic want one or many, just let me know. I'm located in Sweden. I also have distribution boxes, UPS and fan cassettes. /G?ran Jonathan Katz skrev 2012-06-30 03:20: > Folks, > > I have happened upon a fairly nice-sized Data General Power Supply > board. It's about 8" square with 2 x 120-pin plug connector the length > of the board. It says "650W AC autoranging power supply, (C) 1996 Data > General 107003838_02/04" and has a very tiny printed label with a part > number and serial number. The part number I've made out as 665643739, > although the printing is so tiny it could be 885643739. My wife says > 005043739. Google turns up nothing. > > I actually have two. These are essentially NOS parts and seem unused/clean. > > Here's a photo: http://i.imgur.com/ZyYYq.jpg > > Is there any interest in these? What are they? > > -- > -Jon > Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 12:24:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 10:24:03 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 18:09, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm > Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm > VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm > GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm Interesting--so they're apparently using a "naked" totem-pole output stage with no pullup. Interesting--I thought that Zilog always specified at least a 10K pullup on the clock input. Rules were made to be broken, I guess. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 12:34:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:34:47 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 01:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm >> Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm >> VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm >> GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm > > Interesting--so they're apparently using a "naked" totem-pole output > stage with no pullup. Interesting--I thought that Zilog always > specified at least a 10K pullup on the clock input. > > Rules were made to be broken, I guess. I haven't gone and checked, but I do recall pretty clearly that they specify a 330 ohm pullup on the clock line of a Z80, not 10K. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 13:06:26 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 13:06:26 -0500 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 11:51 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I just received a note saying this must be done today or tomorrow, as > the family departs on Wednesday! Will - sent you a direct email re: the previous message. Get in touch and I'll see what I can do. j From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 13:06:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 11:06:57 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF180D1.16062.AB0762@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 13:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > I haven't gone and checked, but I do recall pretty clearly that they > specify a 330 ohm pullup on the clock line of a Z80, not 10K. I was going by the Z80 app note that shows the discrete totem pole output followed by a resistor that has the notation "10K (max)". I haven't checked the date of publication--the notation on the schematic might have been made by an oil company executive... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 13:20:22 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:20:22 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Will - sent you a direct email re: the previous message. Get in touch > and I'll see what I can do. One of the mainframe guys has offered to do it, but I need to confirm with him. Stay tuned, we may have this covered. I do not know how much there is, nor exactly what is there. -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jul 2 16:31:52 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 17:31:52 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF21348.8070700@verizon.net> On 07/02/2012 01:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/02/2012 01:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm >>> Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm >>> VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm >>> GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm >> Interesting--so they're apparently using a "naked" totem-pole output >> stage with no pullup. Interesting--I thought that Zilog always >> specified at least a 10K pullup on the clock input. >> >> Rules were made to be broken, I guess. > I haven't gone and checked, but I do recall pretty clearly that they > specify a 330 ohm pullup on the clock line of a Z80, not 10K. > > -Dave > All the circuits (including the Zilog manuals) I've seen use a 330 ohm or CMOS (rail to rail drive), or something like the 75452 drivers. The key thing is the clock must get to 4.75V nominal (4.4V minimum) with a reasonable rise time and fall times for the clock speed. Most TTl will not go much above 3.4-3.6V without help (pull up). Allison From jon at jonworld.com Mon Jul 2 16:35:33 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:35:33 -0400 Subject: Data General Power Supply? In-Reply-To: <4FF1D47E.1070701@acc.umu.se> References: <4FF1D47E.1070701@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Looks like the power supply for a Clariion disk rack. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clariion-Storage-Company-EMC-Power-Supply-005045508-/221042178727?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item337723faa7 > > I have 15-20 pieces that I pulled from unused systems a couple of years ago. > Each power supply powers 10 hard disks via a back plane. Two supplies sits Oh, wow! Thanks. It certainly looks like it would fit in that box! From cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 2 17:08:01 2012 From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:08:01 -0300 Subject: Working with accounts Message-ID: We have an excellent opportunity for an apprentice applicant to join a rapidly expanding company. An at home Key Account Manager Position (Ref: 92552-205/6HR) is a great opportunity for stay at home parents or anyone who wants to work in the comfort of their own home. This is a genuine offer and not to be confused with scams! The successful candidate must have the ability to handle calls efficiently whilst maintaining the highest levels of customer service and being courteous. Applicants must have an excellent telephone manner, have a friendly approach, excellent communication skills and be computer literate. You must have the ability to type and talk at the same time to customers, as you will be taking customer details over the phone and inputting data onto company database. Requirements: computer with Internet access, valid email address, good typing skills. If you fit the above description and meet the requirements, please apply to this ad stating your location. You will be processing orders from your computer. How much you earn is up to you. The average is in the region of US$600- US$750.00 per week, depending on whether you work full or part time. If you would like more information, please contact us stating where you are located and our job reference number - 92552-205/6HR. Please only SERIOUS applicants. Our contacts: Josue at careerin-finance.com Thank You! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 17:33:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Working with accounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120702153309.T29381@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > spam? and scam From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 17:53:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF16307.3132.36A8CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com>, <4FF16307.3132.36A8CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120702155222.W29381@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Intel was pretty wild and wooly back in the 70s. I recall once > hearing a stream of invective coming from the office next to mine. > It seems that the guy had been presented with samples of the new > Intel 8202 DRAM controller and the datasheets and app notes. If you > took Intel's datasheet numbers and crunched them through the > reference design that Intel provided, worst-case required DRAM with a > negative access time... and the current inventory quantites for those were also negative? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 19:17:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <20120702171152.Q29381@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:26:37 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote > On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has > been 32. 25 years ago, it was not uncommon to have unsigned int be 16 bits, and unsigned short be 8 bits; long was 32 bits I'm not sure that all of the compilers in those days HAD an unsigned long - notice that the file size and maximum number of bytes on a drive in FAT16 were SIGNED 32 bit numbers!) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 00:27:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:27:50 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF27EDE.5030604@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> <20120703044944.GE31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF27EDE.5030604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for >>>> 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) >>> >>> I don't recall any of those...any recollection of which ones? >> >> I seem to recall the Latice C compiler for the Amiga (I still own it) >> spent a chapter or two on linking with the output from other compilers that >> may use different sized ints (68000, internal 32 bit, external 16 bit bus, >> so arguments could be made for using either size for an int). ISTR there was a difference between the default behavior of the Manx C compiler and Lattice C, but I skirted most of it because when I plunked down the big bucks, I got Lattice. IIRC, Manx had early popularity because of lower acquisition cost bolstered by the fact that it made "smaller binaries" (because it did a lot of 16 bit operations in places where Lattice C for the 68K (or even UNIX C compilers on VAXen) would default to 32 bits. I also recall some turbulence from source that would compile on Manx but not on Lattice C, but most of the examples to be found would probably be in the oldest 5%-10% of the Fred Fish library. -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 17:02:21 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:02:21 -0500 Subject: Teletype/Dataspeed Model 40 Message-ID: You never do know what you'll find on Craigslist. This time my bad terminal habit gained another 200lbs of trouble with the acquisition of two very interesting Teletype Model 40 CRT terminals, attractively badged as the Bell System Dataspeed 40. The accompanying printer came with them, as well as two very thick volumes of the Shop Manual for these machines (which may be the same as what is already on Bitsavers - I will check.) A very clean KSR33 Teletype was thrown in to round out the deal. Here are the initial pics (shop manuals are stuck somewhere in the car, will add them soon:) https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/TeletypePickup Not much info out there on these terms. In fact, given the number of labeled cards inside them, I'm not even sure they're strictly terminals. I have read about local storage options, cluster controllers and other peripherals which suggest that TT or Bell may have tried to sell them as an office computing solution as well as terminals. All I know is they are extremely heavy, probably thanks to the massive PSUs in the bases. The CRTs slide off the two stalks in the base, which contain the power and signal connectors. The keyboards detach from the front of the base as well. Very modular, novel design - and essential if one was to have any hope of lifting these things. The "printer" is only a shell. I thought at first it may have been harvested for parts (I was told they came from the estate of a deceased IL Bell repair instructor) but given the connections inside the enclosure, I am wondering if it was designed to accept a standard Teletype mech. Of course, any knowledge out there that can be added here is appreciated. (No I haven't powered them on yet...) -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:10:32 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:10:32 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (update) Message-ID: At this point, one of the mainframe list guys has offered to pick up the stuff, but I am waiting for confirmation. -- Will From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:11:01 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:11:01 -0400 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L Message-ID: The RICM is still wrestling with the core in the PDP-8. After replacing some diodes on the core stack we have all addresses working. We observed an interesting core memory behavior during our debugging last Saturday. We started the memory alignment procedure by looking at the STROBE FIELD 0 signal and the amplifier output on pin E1 of the sense amplifier. The STROBE signal was very late compared to Figure 5-6 in the 8/L Maintenance Manual. We ran a short JMP loop and adjusted the relationship with the trimpot on the M360 delay module. When we halted the processor and tried a examine core we only got just zeros. We adjusted the M360 delay back where it was and single step worked again. We found that the strobe-to-one-bit relationship was almost 100ns earlier when in single-step than it was with the processor running. We checked the whole timing path from MEM START at pin N2 of the M113 in slot C03, through all of the gates, delays, and flip-flops, and found no timing difference between single-step and running. Right now it looks like there is a 100ns delay difference between the READ(1) signal that turns on the current in the core and the bit signal showing up on the E1 pin of the sense amplifier when in the single-step and running. Is this normal behavior? -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 17:23:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 15:23:10 -0700 Subject: Teletype/Dataspeed Model 40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF1BCDE.20023.B678F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 17:02, Jason T wrote: > The "printer" is only a shell. I thought at first it may have been > harvested for parts (I was told they came from the estate of a > deceased IL Bell repair instructor) but given the connections inside > the enclosure, I am wondering if it was designed to accept a standard > Teletype mech. No, the model 40 Dataspeed printer was a band printer with a bank of solenoid-driven hammers behind the band, one per column. Standard tractor-feed forms. It could print a full 132 columns wide at a time. I seem to recall that the rated speed was 150 LPM, not bad at all for a tabletop unit. It really needed that soundproof enclosure-- it was VERY loud without it. A couple of third-party vendors bought the basic mech from Teletype and packaged it in their own enclosures with a standard Centronics or Dataproducts interface. I still have some old documents printed on one--the print quality is quite high. I still have the schematics for the thing somewhere. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jul 2 21:02:55 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:02:55 -0700 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: <2873C066-13D1-4352-8B27-16E8E51221F8@gmail.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <2873C066-13D1-4352-8B27-16E8E51221F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF252CF.7050609@mail.msu.edu> On 7/2/2012 10:01 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > Interesting... I have a TI microExplorer set in a Mac IIcx (or possibly IIci)... I don't have the sticker, though :-) > > I bought the board set in 2001 for the princely sum of $3 + sales tax - $3.24 in total, and the nice people at Weird Stuff Warehouse even gave me a big anti-static bag for it. > So jealous :). I've been looking for one of those for years (or any TI Lisp Machine, for that matter). I'll give you $6 for it :). - Josh From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jul 3 01:53:52 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 06:53:52 +0000 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/2/12 11:20 AM, "William Donzelli" wrote: >> Will - sent you a direct email re: the previous message. Get in touch >> and I'll see what I can do. > >One of the mainframe guys has offered to do it, but I need to confirm >with him. Stay tuned, we may have this covered. > >I do not know how much there is, nor exactly what is there. > >-- >Will > > If everything else falls through, please let me know. I have family in the Elgin area and might be able to enlist them. -- Ian From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 03:00:06 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:00:06 -0500 Subject: Teletype/Dataspeed Model 40 In-Reply-To: <4FF1BCDE.20023.B678F3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF1BCDE.20023.B678F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I think I was trained on those in the military around 1975 or 76. When I went to for DEC I recall a customer who used the late 70's. Fairly good units as I recall. Paul On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jul 2012 at 17:02, Jason T wrote: > > >> The "printer" is only a shell. I thought at first it may have been >> harvested for parts (I was told they came from the estate of a >> deceased IL Bell repair instructor) but given the connections inside >> the enclosure, I am wondering if it was designed to accept a standard >> Teletype mech. > > No, the model 40 Dataspeed printer was a band printer with a bank of > solenoid-driven hammers behind the band, one per column. Standard > tractor-feed forms. It could print a full 132 columns wide at a > time. I seem to recall that the rated speed was 150 LPM, not bad at > all for a tabletop unit. It really needed that soundproof enclosure-- > it was VERY loud without it. > > A couple of third-party vendors bought the basic mech from Teletype > and packaged it in their own enclosures with a standard Centronics or > Dataproducts interface. I still have some old documents printed on > one--the print quality is quite high. > > I still have the schematics for the thing somewhere. > > --Chuck > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 12:05:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120703095946.D56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > But sizeof(unsigned short) is *still* defined (same section as above). > The ANSI C specification states that a short shall be *at least* 16 bits in > size, but can be larger, but must be shorter than a long. If the compiler > isn't ANSI C, then yes, it can be pretty much anything, but ANSI does > specify a minimum length. Not all of us are enthusiastic, EVEN NOW, about switching from defacto practices in K&R to arbitrary standards in ANSI-C > And for the record: > char 8 bits or larger [1] > short 16 bits or larger In K&R C, a short int was often the same as a char > An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long. That's what K&R originally said, also, and that THAT was ALL that one should assume. They said that an int should be whatever was best handled by the machine. > [1] a plain 'char' declaration can be signed or unsigned, depending upon > compiler. THAT one bit me, and hard, when I was first starting, and using char for byte (contents of 8 bit registers, etc.). From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 12:11:26 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com>, <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com>, <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120703100627.X56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing and comparing integers > makes arithmetic sense. ANDing, ORing, EXORing, shifting, NOTing > does not--they're operations reserved for strings of bits. But > that's been a weakness of C since K&R put pen to paper. AND strength! > My fear is that C and other languages are constraining our ideas of > computer architecture unduly. ANY programming language creates its own "world-view". Imagine the "reality" of computer architecture perceived by COBOL, or even BASIC, only programmers! Or should we demand that computers be designed to CONFORM to each "reality"? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 09:46:58 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:46:58 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I just received a note saying this must be done today or tomorrow, as > the family departs on Wednesday! OK, good news. The items have been rescued. I do not know what is in the pile yet, but I do not think it is much. Thanks all for offers of help. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 13:38:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120703112713.P56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > But sizeof(unsigned short) is *still* defined (same section as above). > The ANSI C specification states that a short shall be *at least* 16 bits in > size, but can be larger, but must be shorter than a long. NO!!!! a short need not be shorter than a long! But it must not be LONGER than a long. That is an important distinction in the limits on C's variable sizes "An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long." You COULD, with sufficient insanity, create a compiler wherein an int, short-int, long-int are all 32 bit. or 64 bit. I'd RATHER have them different. In small memory model, with an array of 400+ x 20 numbers, and a metric handful of static arrays to hold 80 x 25 text screens (2 x 8, or 16 bits per screen position), and a few 1024 arrays (to hold bytes), . . . Having some smaller sizes can be handy. > isn't ANSI C, then yes, it can be pretty much anything, but ANSI does > specify a minimum length. But NOT a maximum, NOR a requirement, although they have different lower limits, that they have differne upper limits. "An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long." From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 14:12:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> > > Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > you shoulda spoke up Naaah. Those other "prehistoric" machines "don't really count". They were just "leading up to the first PC". (no mouse? no hard disk? no GUI? etc. (although even ALL of those arbitrary "requirements to BE a PC" far preceded Mac)) A mac was what the author of the text had for HIS first PC, and therefore, THAT was "the first PC" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 14:55:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120703125458.A56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. They are already TEACHING that! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 13:33:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:33:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 2, 12 08:54:08 pm Message-ID: > The thing to remember is that it is not finished yet. This is not the > final product. When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. > > The motto of Open Source is "release early, release often". They > shoved the hardware out the door as soon as they could. The OS(es) > is(are) not finished, there is no case, there is no ecosystem or > infrastructure around it. I can think of 3 things wrong with that : 1) It's not open. You yourself said that. Given a piece of oepn-sourve softwre, it is possible (if you are sufficiently technical) to figure out a lot from the source. Given a piece of closed-source software, running on a machine which at the time had no released scheamtics (they are released now, but as you say, things change), you have an alomst impossible job figuring it out without docuemtnation 2) It's not software 3) And therefore it's not free. A peice of software can be easily copied, and thus it cna be made esentially free. A piece of hardware cannot. DOn;t get me wrong, a piece of hardware is a physical thing and it;s obvious you have to pay for it. But even thought the Rpi is cheap, it's still expensive enough that I (for one) would bot buy one unless I knew it coule be useful. Buying things you haev no use for is simply wasting money. AS a result, releasing in a 'beta' version and not stating it was not finished seems like a rather bad idea. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 13:36:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:36:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF1A195.29434.4BE419@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 2, 12 01:26:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Jul 2012 at 19:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > > [1] I wonder what the best way to do this would be? Off the top of > > my head, soem kind of microdoed ssytem or complex state machine (which > > at this level are the same thing, of course) would be my first guess. > > A cheap 8-bit microcontroller might arguably be the least expensive > way to implement it and allow for minor tweaks without circuit > modifications if you're not of the CPLD persuasion. The only reason I am not of the 'CPLD persuasuion' is that I have no way to use them. Not one of them is totally open. Yes, if I had to do this I would use a microcontroller. But that footnote you quoted specifically refered to a comment I had made about 'doing it with 74xx ICs'. I don't believe there are any such microcontrollers :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 13:42:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> from "Sean Conner" at Jul 2, 12 06:53:51 pm Message-ID: > > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a > > > "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll > > > > AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > > I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a > > sizeof(unsigned short) > > and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits > of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). Of course you can. The point I was making is that the value you get depends on the compiler/architecture. There is no reason why a char (or unsigned char) has to be 8 bits, there is no reason why a short is 2 chars, etc. Therefore if you are using this to talk to soem hardware register that is physcially a 16 bit register the resulting code is not portable. Of course the fact that it depends on a particular bit of hardware probably makes it non-portably too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 15:07:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:07:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jul 3, 12 07:58:48 pm Message-ID: > > .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. > > Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" > Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" > Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" > > Sigh....... ARGH!!!! > > > Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on what a 'PC' is. I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one machine that ran a high-level language from ROM. You put it on a desk, plugged it into the mains and started programming. > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. Err, no. IMHO learnign incorrect information is worse than not learing it at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 15:14:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:14:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 3, 12 12:25:10 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <4FF332D8.7050808 at bluewin.ch>, > Jos Dreesen writes: > > > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. > > What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? Agreed. HAving to 'unlearn' stuff is worse than never knowing it. A rather more pleasant 'overheard on the bus' story. Some time back I was (literally) 'Tha man on the Clapham omnibus' I overheard a gentleman talking into his sellular phone (I don't make a habit of eavesdropping, but soething he said made me sit up). He menitoend the name 'Maurice Wilkes'. After he had finished, I said that I couldn't help overhearing (I was sitting very close to him) and asked if it was the 'Maurice WIlkes' that I was thinking of, involved with EDSAC and all that. It was. It turned out said gentleman had worked one delay line stores at Plessey. Alas the journey was not long enough for me to discuss all I wanted to.... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 15:19:45 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:19:45 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 3 Jul 2012 at 12:25, Richard wrote: > >> What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? > >I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > >--Chuck But... But... He did! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 16:11:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703141003.O64027@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. It was the first computer owned by the author of their textbook. That's how MOST "first computer" determinations are made, since anything prior to THAT was just "leading up to the first computer" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 16:23:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703141338.R64027@shell.lmi.net> > > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, no. IMHO learnign incorrect information is worse than not learing it > at all. . . . and then, when they become teachers, they promulgate that same nonsense as confirmed fact" That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, George Washington and the cherry tree, "Henry Ford invented the automobile", and Columbus' mission revised as being "to prove the world is round"! (all educated people at the time knew that it was round, and they had a pretty good idea of the exact size; Columbus was trying to prove that it is 1/3 of its size!) Fact checking is NOT required, not encouraged, when writing a history textbook. Curricula is finalized by the most ignorant. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 16:44:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> > > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held > > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, TeoZ wrote: > No, he invented the portable music player! ;) and the cellphone From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 3 16:19:58 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements Message-ID: Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but no blue ones left. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 17:53:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that 100% shipped with a mouse? > And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on > what a 'PC' is. Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. > I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one > machine that ran a high-level language from ROM. You put it on a desk, > plugged it into the mains and started programming. That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, but in 1972 it was definitely an advanced feature. S-100 machines soft-loaded BASIC (a few years later) and are still personal computers. The Apple II soft-loaded AppleSoft BASIC. I'm sure there are more examples. It is not, however, a stretch to say that the first personal computer was invented long before 1984 (or 1981). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 17:54:13 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:54:13 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >> among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > > But... But... He did! And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:14:17 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:14:17 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >> > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, TeoZ wrote: >> No, he invented the portable music player! ;) > > and the cellphone And the Look-and-Feel lawsuit... -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 19:08:14 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 20:08:14 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Dave wrote: >> And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". >> > Yes, I think they were "The Quarrymen" ..... Indeed. Famous all over the North, as I hear it. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 19:27:02 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:27:02 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 6:54 PM -0400 7/3/12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >>> among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. >> >> But... But... He did! > >And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". Oh, is he famous for something other than having been Linda McCartney's husband, and being Mary McCartney's father (I have books by both sitting here). I thought "Wings" was a TV show. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 22:53:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:53:51 -0400 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> References: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the > end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics > were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II > was a lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot > of insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized. The 11/750 and 11/730 also had full schematics and assembly drawings on thick slabs of 11"x17" paper, accompanied by several 8.5"x11" tomes of technical descriptions. I think even DEC stopped providing that level of documentation in most cases after about 1983 or so. I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. -ethan From wayward4now at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:24:26 2012 From: wayward4now at gmail.com (Ric Moore) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:24:26 -0400 Subject: NEC Spinwriter 5525 available In-Reply-To: <200707200205.55107.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707200205.55107.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FF37F2A.6030303@gmail.com> Do you still have that spinwriter?? God, I miss mine!! The print quality is the best, even if it is noisy as all get out. I would like to have it. Thanks! Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 19:26:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor Message-ID: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could be in better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a monitor is cosmetic, no?), but they were working the last time I turned them on. I used to get big bucks for these bad boys. But their day has long come and gone :(. Damned LCDs! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:06:41 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 22:06:41 -0300 Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21e101cd5981$55c8d210$6600a8c0@tababook> I had one, it weighted more than me! :oO --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 9:26 PM Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor >I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could be in >better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a monitor is cosmetic, >no?), but they were working the last time I turned them on. I used to get >big bucks for these bad boys. But their day has long come and gone :(. >Damned LCDs! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 21:00:00 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:00:00 -0300 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements References: Message-ID: <227901cd5988$d0315250$6600a8c0@tababook> Blue paint? :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 6:19 PM Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements > > Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the > IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but > no blue ones left. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 21:26:38 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:26:38 -0500 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3A9DE.9080503@pico-systems.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:11:01 -0400 From: Michael Thompson To: cctech Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The RICM is still wrestling with the core in the PDP-8. After replacing some diodes on the core stack we have all addresses working. We observed an interesting core memory behavior during our debugging last Saturday. We started the memory alignment procedure by looking at the STROBE FIELD 0 signal and the amplifier output on pin E1 of the sense amplifier. The STROBE signal was very late compared to Figure 5-6 in the 8/L Maintenance Manual. We ran a short JMP loop and adjusted the relationship with the trimpot on the M360 delay module. When we halted the processor and tried a examine core we only got just zeros. We adjusted the M360 delay back where it was and single step worked again. We found that the strobe-to-one-bit relationship was almost 100ns earlier when in single-step than it was with the processor running. We checked the whole timing path from MEM START at pin N2 of the M113 in slot C03, through all of the gates, delays, and flip-flops, and found no timing difference between single-step and running. Right now it looks like there is a 100ns delay difference between the READ(1) signal that turns on the current in the core and the bit signal showing up on the E1 pin of the sense amplifier when in the single-step and running. Is this normal behavior? The first thing that comes to mind is one-shot recovery time. I might guess that some component has degraded, and the one-shot has a different delay when it has been recently triggered vs. when it has sat for a while. (I'm assuming a classic 8, with discrete transistors, not a later machine built with ICs.) Most specifically, there probably is a transistor that resets the capacitor at the end of the one-shot cycle, and if that transistor is weak, it may not get the cap fully discharged before the next memory cycle starts. Most core memories had circuits to adjust drive current based on core plane temperature, maybe some adjusted timings as well. Also, check for dead decoupling capacitors, these could allow noise when running to alter timings. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 21:50:33 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:50:33 -0500 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3AF79.4030301@pico-systems.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but no blue ones left. In this day of 3-d printers, maybe you can find somebody to print some. You ought to be able to get the ABS filament in blue. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 22:40:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 20:40:05 -0700 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: <227901cd5988$d0315250$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <227901cd5988$d0315250$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FF358A5.4700.2AD0115@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 23:00, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Blue paint? :o) Disclaimer: I have not tried this, but others swear by it. Try automotive vinyl dye. Case-modders appear to love the stuff: http://www.gideontech.com/content/articles/202/1 --Chuck From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 00:01:36 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:01:36 -0700 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> On 7/3/2012 2:19 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the > IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but > no blue ones left. > > Mouser has paddles. The Red ones are very close to the original IMSAI. The Blue ones are quite a bit lighter. You can either darken the light blue paddles our just replace all of them. At $0.73 each, it wouldn't break the bank. See: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=AT4157 Rob. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 4 00:54:10 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 22:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> References: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 7/3/2012 2:19 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the >> IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but >> no blue ones left. > Mouser has paddles. The Red ones are very close to the original IMSAI. > The Blue ones are quite a bit lighter. You can either darken the light blue > paddles our just replace all of them. At $0.73 each, it > wouldn't break the bank. > > See: > > http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=AT4157 Almost perfect! I wonder if a treatment of vinyl dye (as suggested earlier) will darken to blue ones to the correct shade. What bugs me most about this repair job is that I had a baggie full of them a couple weeks ago and now I can't find them anywhere. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 03:27:11 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:27:11 -0500 Subject: 2 X 12 micro backplane 54-13211, 1979 Message-ID: Does anyone know what this is or what it was used in? Thanks, Paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 09:39:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. Steve Jobs! > Does anyone know of something? > He was a great person in some respects but inventer > he wasn't. He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for introducing the next iteration of existing products. He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand loyalty. iPod iPhone iPad were all versions of existing products that had not previously been very successful in the market. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 09:55:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120704074100.B90667@shell.lmi.net> > First consumer machine with > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? Not the first one with bit-mapped video. Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? > First consumer machine that > 100% shipped with a mouse? Not the first one to have a mouse available. Perhaps the first one that could not be purchased without the bundled mouse. THAT is an invention? > First consumer machine with 3.5" drive Not the first one to have a 3.5" drive And the Seequa Chameleon would be the the first to . . . NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on a previous model!) Which is the first personal computer to not let you have, nor add, a floppy drive? Which is the first personal computer to attempt to eliminate third party floppy drives? Which is the first personal computer with a CRT, but not having a video output? Which is the first personal computer to not let you install any software not purchased through the manufacturer? Are THOSE "inventions"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 09:59:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120704075647.I90667@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, David Griffith wrote: > Almost perfect! I wonder if a treatment of vinyl dye (as suggested > earlier) will darken to blue ones to the correct shade. What bugs me most > about this repair job is that I had a baggie full of them a couple weeks > ago and now I can't find them anywhere. Purchase a large quantity. Go to put them away for later. No matter how thoroughly you had previously searched, that storage location will be unavailable due to being filled with the large baggie full of them that you already have. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 10:02:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120704080024.J90667@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then > they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open > source community. > We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. We will publish > them for you, period. > Disgusting. I don't want a device I can't write what I want for. Jobs did not INVENT the "CLOSED system". He is merely perfecting it, and sealing off any remaining openings. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 10:33:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120704081944.Q90667@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I just wanted to say.... I won't consider this as a big problem we > realy need to start worrying about education! Why? The shool will > always(!) simplify things to teach them to children. This has beend > the case and always was the case. If you talk to higher educated > people what they think is right what is being teached from their area > of knownledge in the school (e.g. chemistry). you'll always here "this > is wrong what they teach!" but this is the case. Children should not > care about every detail for everything. This is what later education > is for where you specialise for an area... everything before is "a > little bit true, but not the full truth". I can give you examples of > how children are being teached on how sulfuric acid is being produced > but what they are being teached will _never_ work.... you can't load > them with 1000000 details of 100000 areas of science. Besides, worker drones don't need to know history, much less ACCURATE history, only whether we are currently at war with Eurasia, Eastasia, or Oceania, along with examples of the atrocities committed by whichever one(s) we are currently at war with. And, besides those inducted into the anointed corporate computer programming priesthood, the only computer science that the public needs to know is how to use the "APPS" for the digital sweatshop. Teaching that Jobs invented the computer simplifies the task of training "good citizens". Just let MiniTrue write the textbooks that are best for us. MiniTrue RecDep can rectify the historical records. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Room 101 Miniluv From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:13:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:13:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jul 3, 12 11:30:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to > > navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I > > didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. > > Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. > > I think the hardware is fixed and final, and has been for a while. Is it? When I looked a few days ago I found some comment about the I2S interface. Apparently there was supposed to be one on the Rpi, but current boards don't have it. I thought I read that future versions might. In which case the hardware is not non-changing. [...] > So, the foundation can still modify the firmware simply by > distributing new blobs, and I guess that for the system to be truly > open, those three blobs need to be reverse-engineered. Again, not > dissimilar to the Amiga Kickstart, IMHO. There si, I think, one big difference. The program interface (registers, etc) for the Amiga chips was pbulished. The program inteface for the GPU on the Rpi is not. That makes a big difference to revese-engineering it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:19:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:19:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703141338.R64027@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 3, 12 02:23:30 pm Message-ID: > > > > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Err, no. IMHO learnign incorrect information is worse than not learing it > > at all. > > . . . and then, when they become teachers, they promulgate that same > nonsense as confirmed fact" Oh don;t ge me started... The computing teracher I had at school was sufficiently clueless that I failed the exam (at the tiem of taking said exam I could progrom in BASIC, pascal and forth and had hand-wired my own Z80-based computer). Now I'll happily admit to not knowing all sorts of areas of computing, but this was not an advanced exam.... I also never had a signle maths or physics teacher who I regarded as clueful. Fortunately I did a rather better job of teaching myself the good bits of those subjects. > That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, What I find suprising is that the books I have on telephony, going back over 100 years, don't mention them either. [...] > > Fact checking is NOT required, not encouraged, when writing a history > textbook. Curricula is finalized by the most ignorant. I once looked at a physics syllabus and my first comment was 'Well, most of the things here are downright wrong'. I don't mean things like Newtonian mechanics. We all know that's an apporximation, but it's a darn good approxiamtion for normal-sized ogjects moving at normal speeds, and I would not call it 'wrong'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:21:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:21:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jul 3, 12 11:41:32 pm Message-ID: > There is NO PROOF that any IBM is older than 20 years. Actually, tjhere';s no proof that the world is more than, say, 10 second old. It might have been created with all of us on it, with all the memories we have, and so on. You can't _prove_ that's not the case :-) But if oyu acept the more normal view, then I've had na IBM computer for more than 20 years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:27:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:27:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 3, 12 06:53:27 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. > > First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in Was it? I thoght the HP150 predated it (although I guess you could configure an HP150 with 5.25" drives). > the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that What do you mean by 'consumer' here? I you mean 'sold to anyone who'd buy it' then the PERQ certain;y predates it. > 100% shipped with a mouse? > > > And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on > > what a 'PC' is. > > Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. Do programmable calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) > > > I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one > > machine that ran a high-level language from ROM. You put it on a desk, > > plugged it into the mains and started programming. > > That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally > feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, The HP9830 was, I belive , the fist machine where you just bought it, plugged in itno the mains nad used it. Nothing more to buy, no stoage meadia to insert, etc. It's _one_ candidate, sure. There are plenty of others, and there;s nothign wrong with pickign one of those if you define the cretia appropriately. I think we all agree that the personal computer of today comes from a long line of machines and it's not clear which of those is thefirst personal computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:46:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:46:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> from "Jon Elson" at Jul 3, 12 09:33:00 pm Message-ID: > > >More seriously, can you name a present-day computer where the > > >manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like? > > > > Ummm, you want the transistor-level prints on a Core 2 Duo CPU? > 290 million transistors! Really, if put on paper, it ought to > fill a large room. So? Moe seriously, I would never expect that sort of data on the ICs. It's not needed to understnad or repair the machine. THings like hte program interface (registres, instructions, etc), pinouts, timing diagrams, etc. The sort of thing you find in a ful ldata sheet for an LSI device. The sort of schematics I mean are ones that show such ICs are blocks with the interconnections shown. The schematics of the TRS-80 M1 or the Apple ][ don't show the internals of the Z80 or 6502, but I still class those as the schematics of the machine. As does everyone I know. > > The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the > end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics There are many later than that. For a start the 11/750 and 11/730 VAXen have printests liek that. After that, the HP150, HP150-II and Portable Plus machines (and I assume the HP110) had published Techncial manuals with full schematics. So did all the IBM PC family before the PS/2 range AFAIK all Radio Shack machines had availbel schematics/service manuals. Cetainly the CoC3 did (I bought it) and that long postdates the 11/780. I assuem the PC-sort-of-compatibles -- the 1000 series, 3000 series, did too. What about the 5000 (I think)? That was a Microchannel machine. Was there a schematici for that? In the UK, Amstrad service manuals were easy to get and were little more tha na schematic and parts list. I have them for at least oen 386SX laptop. And I think all/most Acorn machines (Archimedes, etc) had scheamtics avaialble Some of the AMiga scheamtics were printed in the user manuals. And as I said in another message tonight there was a book giving some data o nthe ASICs. Many of thos schematics did not include things like PSUs and drives, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 15:25:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:25:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704074100.B90667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 12 07:55:44 am Message-ID: > > > First consumer machine with > > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? > > Not the first one with bit-mapped video. > Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? The PERQ (1979) of course had only a bitmappaed mode, but they added the 'Rasterop machine' (basically a systm to put bitmapped images -- like chraxcters -- at arbitrary points on the screen) so that text would eb at least as fast as a 9600baurd terminal (it was in fact at least an oder of magnitude faster). FWIW, the UK Whitechapel MG1 had a bit-serial equivalent ot the rasterop machine which was appaeently slower than doing bit operation on the main CPU... [...] > NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: > Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to > block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on > a previous model!) Tht does sound like Apple, assuming you think the plastic stuf fasteners on the Apple ][ are like Velcro and think that Torx screws are somehow difficult to remove... > Which is the first personal computer to not let you have, nor add, a > floppy drive? HP9830? It had digital cassettes and an optional hard drive (something like an RK05), but AFAIK no floppy drive ever existed for it. > Which is the first personal computer to attempt to eliminate third party > floppy drives? > Which is the first personal computer with a CRT, but not having a video > output? Manchester Mk 1? It had CRTs used for the main store, not video display :-) -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:46:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:46:01 -0400 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF445C1.6090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> <4FF445C1.6090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/3/12 8:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running >> across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. > > it is on bitsavers Thank you. I'll probably pull it up for general entertainment purposes when I start re-fiddling with Qbus hardware. I have a number of BA-23 systems including a uVAX-II. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 15:57:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:57:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: <201207041854.OAA17733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jul 4, 12 02:54:53 pm Message-ID: > > > The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, > > Me neither, in theory. I am. I can understnad how CRT-based monitors work. I can generally fix them. They're not a PCB of unrecogniasble nad untestable BGA blobs linked to an LCD iwth transistors i nthe glass. Dome machines should, IMHO, be kept with CRT montiors. Things like the PERQs. Adn anything wit ha built-in CRT (TRS80 M3/M4, HP130, HP150, etc). The demise of CRT monitors means that spare CRTs and things like flyback transfomers are goign to be harder to get i nthe future > > But even the cheapest of CRTs could usually autosync to a video signal > without putting half a character - or sometimes more - off the edge of > the visible display, something I regularly find "modern" flatscreens > doing. And this is when connected to peecees, too. > > And I have a CRT that's willing to sync to a much-too-wide video > signal, just squashing it down. It doesn't look good, but it mostly Hmmm. SOme CRT monitors, if fed a signal with the wrong horizontal scan rate, could end up wdamaging partis in the hoizotnal output stage. I think I'd prefer 'Sorry I can't display that'. > works; text is legible, for example. Modern flatscreens usually > display nothing, or at most an "I can't display this" box, instead of > doing something sensible with such input. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 15:48:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:48:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's In-Reply-To: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jul 4, 12 11:44:00 am Message-ID: > > Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) > assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? I am pretty sure there was an RCA 1802 development system with an assembler on paper tape. I may have said tape somewhere (bnt I know I don;t have the machine it runs on) -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 16:41:48 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:41:48 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in... > > Was it? I thoght the HP150 predated it (although I guess you could > configure an HP150 with 5.25" drives). The HP150 had 3.5" drives first (by two months, I understand), but if you can put 5.25" floppies on it, then it's disqualified from this exact and precise definition of "first". >> the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with >> bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that > > What do you mean by 'consumer' here? I you mean 'sold to anyone who'd buy > it' then the PERQ certain;y predates it. The term "consumer" is more equivalent to "mass marketed" than to "customer". DEC sold minicomputers to "anyone who'd buy them" but "consumers" didn't fall into the ranks of the DEC new-purchase customers until practically the days of the Rainbow (yes lots of people like the ones on this list, including several actual members of this list, owned their own DEC equipment, but very, very few purchased that same equipment new, at new prices for personal, not professional, use). >> 100% shipped with a mouse? >> >> > And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on >> > what a 'PC' is. >> >> Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. > > Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. Two terms that are easy to define to 80% accuracy, but very difficult when used to split hairs of the type "machine X is/is not a personal computer". > Do programmable > calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? > > [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) I would say that if a particular device is considered to be a calculator, programmable or not, it's not eligible for moniker "personal computer". A computer that can't calculate isn't much of a computer, and likewise a calculator that can't "compute" is just a calculator. IMO, the difference is intended use and especially the UI. Calculators have numeric keypads and mathematical function keys, and if they have alpha keys, those are often a secondary feature. Computers tend towards toggle switches, simple keypads (0-F plus load, run, etc), or full typewriter-style alphanumeric keyboards with symbols commonly used when writing human languages, not just mathematical expressions. >> > I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one >> > machine that ran a high-level language from ROM.,, >> >> That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally >> feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, > > The HP9830 was, I belive , the fist machine where you just bought it, > plugged in itno the mains nad used it. Nothing more to buy, no stoage > meadia to insert, etc. An advanced machine for 1972, clearly. > It's _one_ candidate, sure. There are plenty of others, and there;s > nothign wrong with pickign one of those if you define the cretia > appropriately. I think we all agree that the personal computer of today > comes from a long line of machines and it's not clear which of those is > thefirst personal computer. Right. Just because a different machine requires multiple cabinets or load media, or only interfaces to the user via lights and switches doesn't make it less of a computer, just different, and probably for a different type of user/customer. It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). I think it was Fred that said that "it must have been the author's first computer" - that certainly colors the common perception of "first" - baby duck syndrome - a topic that makes the rounds here frequently. My first 8-bitter was an PET, my second was an Elf, my first 16-bitter was a PDP-11 and so on... they are still the machines that evoke the most pleasant memories for me. There was a lot of different hardware made in the 1960s and 1970s, but the ones I saw first were certainly the ones I like "best". A corollary to the "first" discussion would be "first at what?" and/or "first and why?" Those are easier to find counter examples to than just an endless circular discussion of just "first". -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:18:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704151254.F2587@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, > What I find suprising is that the books I have on telephony, going back > over 100 years, don't mention them either. Well, Leif Eric[k?]son wasn't involved in telephony as far as I know. Or, if he was, he went straight to wireless, and didn't leave any copper wire behind. He went back and forth between Europe and America, and started a colony in Newfoundland? 500 years before Columbus. I think that his cargo of timber provides some evidence that he wasn't imagining having found some land on his first voyage. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:24:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704152035.L2587@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not the first one with bit-mapped video. > > Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? ^^^^ sorry! "TEXT" > > NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: > > Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to > > block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on > > a previous model!) > Tht does sound like Apple, assuming you think the plastic stuf fasteners > on the Apple ][ are like Velcro and think that Torx screws are somehow > difficult to remove... I DID put "tamper-proof" in the obligatory quotation marks. The 5150 did predate the Mac, and used the "tamper-proof" torx on the power supply. That did necessitate an excursion to another room. > Manchester Mk 1? It had CRTs used for the main store, not video display :-) Wow! like to see that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 17:27:14 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:27:14 -0600 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704151254.F2587@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120704151254.F2587@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF4C342.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/4/2012 4:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, >> What I find suprising is that the books I have on telephony, going back >> over 100 years, don't mention them either. > > Well, Leif Eric[k?]son wasn't involved in telephony as far as I know. Or, > if he was, he went straight to wireless, and didn't leave any copper wire > behind. He went back and forth between Europe and America, and started a > colony in Newfoundland? 500 years before Columbus. > > I think that his cargo of timber provides some evidence that he wasn't > imagining having found some land on his first voyage. The first telephone pole? > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:59:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704153002.H2587@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" > and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said > characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". > I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first > personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM > Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly > easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal > computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). 32 years ago, there was a computer store down the street, named "Personal Computers". They went belly-up well before the 5150 was announced (August 1981) > I think it was Fred that said that "it must have been the author's > first computer" - that certainly colors the common perception of > "first" - baby duck syndrome - a topic that makes the rounds here > frequently. My first 8-bitter was an PET, my second was an Elf, my > first 16-bitter was a PDP-11 and so on... they are still the machines > that evoke the most pleasant memories for me. There was a lot of > different hardware made in the 1960s and 1970s, but the ones I saw > first were certainly the ones I like "best". To be fair, many people, even authors!, will acknowledge one generation before the first that they bought. People who first bought PC may acknowledge CP/M, people who first bought Mac may acknowledge PC, etc. 35 years ago, I was pricing personal computers, but I couldn't justify the cost. So, to ME, the first ones were S100 with CP/M Then the TRS80/Pet/Apple][ machines came out. I maintain that those three were TIED for their relative timing. Different choices of measurement (first announced, first demo'd, first shipped, first in a store that you could carry home, etc.) can be used to give any of those three an edge over the other 2. It is so easy to place any of the three ahead of the other two, but by such small amounts, that I insist that they are TIED. I bought TRS80 (for $400 without the [usually bundled] monitor and cassette - had plenty already). Apple or Pet would have cost me more. To other people, such as those who bought machines with RAM, drives, monitor, etc. bundled, the TRS80 might NOT have seemed cheaper. At the college, in 1983, we bought 5150s for $1280? plus a CGA and an FDC card, and bought our monitors, RAM, and drives elsewhere, for a total cost of under $2000. The college admins came up with a "faantastic deal" for complete machine for $2800. Fortunately, our department head had been with the district for long enough that he could tell them to F off. > A corollary to the "first" discussion would be "first at what?" and/or > "first and why?" Those are easier to find counter examples to than > just an endless circular discussion of just "first". For example, "First portable" is generally assigned to Osborne. But, the 5100 is clearly earlier. So is the Antikythera, but y'all probably will reject it. However, The Elcompco model-V (CP/M machine with 5" monitor built into a Halliburton briefcase) was announced, demo'd ("demonstrated", not "demolished") and SOLD (5 of them) by Joe Garner at my booth at the West Coast Computer Faire 6 hours before Adam made HIS announcement. He had come over and shaken my hand, but that didn't stop his "first" claims. It was sad to hear of his passing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 20:31:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> > > Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must have > > never heard of NEXT computer. On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > I own a couple. Were you actually around in the '80s? I hung out in the wrong circles! I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. I played with a pre-release NeXT; I never touched one after that. I never touched an Apple///, although I gave my nephew a ][+ with a /// monitor on it. Based on those two machines, it was obvious that Jobs wanted closed systems. Q: was he color-blind? (but otherwise good visual acuity) It seemed as though he was not very enthusiastic about adding color to the screen! Hey! I wonder if Apple was first to have a personal computer available in case color "Raspberry"? If THAT is one of the requirements for "first personal computer", . . . What were the color names for the iMac? (the ADM3a look-alike) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 5 11:43:52 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:43:52 -0700 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:48 PM +0200 7/5/12, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Simply put, WOW! I wish you were local, I'd love one or two of those StorageWorks pedestals. That is one serious collection of VAX hardware! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 11:59:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: > > 1. I don't have a keyboard or monitor to go with it. I see from the > manual on Bitsavers that the monitor gets a composite video signal, Yep. A DEC VR201 is the typical monitor on a Pro, but its DA15 connector just carries RS170 video, +12V to power the VR201, and data for the keyboard. I've rigged up a video-and-power cable (no KB) to use a VR201 with an Amiga 2000. There's no reason you can't use an NTSC monitor with the Pro. If you have a monochrome monitor, you'll likely get a sharper image than if you have a color monitor, but either way, you should be able to see what's going on. > and that the keyboard uses 4800-baud 8-N-1 RS423 signalling. Is the > protocol described anywhere? Yes, but I can't recall in exactly which manual off the top of my head. The "right" keyboard is a DEC LK201, but ISTR there are several similar keyboards with the same electrical and logical characteristics. If you have or can borrow a keyboard from a DECmate II/III, or a Rainbow or a VT220 (or similar-era) terminal, that will work. In the States, you could re-use a "handset connector" from a telephone to build a cable that will break out to your non-DEC monitor and a keyboard connector; I don't know if there are any European telephones that use the narrow-format "4p4c" jack. I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter, but I don't remember if anyone ever posted instructions/firmware. The hardware would not be difficult to assemble, but it might take a couple of passes to get the firmware tweaked up. > 2. I found a box with three option cards: 2 x 000046 and 1 x 000401. > What are these? cf http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt 000046 PC3XX-AA CTI Realtime Interface 000046 PN: 50-15538 000046 Refs: EB-25824-18 000401 -------- CTI 5.25" Winchester disk controller 000401 PN: 54-15134 000401 Refs: EK-PC100-V2 -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 12:56:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to > me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to > bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). > I wouldn't say no to one if someone gave me one for my collection. (; Why was the Palm Pilot more successful than the newton? Fossil/Abacus sold a wristwatch with PalmOS (4.x) Not as nice as the never-imported Epson RC20 (Z80 based), but more readily usable From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 13:03:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20120705105650.L34140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > As a technology it was a good first stab, as a product it tanked. Yes, but watch out for using the word "first" - you know how we obsess over THAT! Fujitsu's Poqet tablet? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 13:14:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> > A pint of beer in London is about > ?3-?3.50; in Norway or Sweden, ?6-?7. There are cheaper countries than > here - a pint in the Czech Republic would be about 30-40p - but also > ones where everything is twice as expensive. When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, the world economies are in big trouble. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 15:31:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) In-Reply-To: <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120705132617.F34140@shell.lmi.net> > > I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley > > Smalltalk); I never touched on after that. On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > That is very interesting! I am rather familiar with the history of > Smalltalk and was not aware of any connection between Apple the > Berkeley. I had read that the Berkeley students had been given a copy of > the HP Smalltalk to study and then developed their own version for the > VAX and, later, for Sun workstations. I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put thumbprints on the media)). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:07:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:07:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) In-Reply-To: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jul 4, 12 09:51:43 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > (...) it displys TV-rate video on an > > > > internal CRT and photographs it. > > > > > > > > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna > > > > print a colour inamge in 3 goes. > > > > > > (...) > > > > AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate > > video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. (...) there's a disk > > with 4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to > > move them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's > > microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t > > rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. > > So it must takes RGB component input (no decoder) and you have to feed > it a "freeze frame" video signal, i.e. keep the image content static (no > framestore) until the three exposures have been completed? > Yes. I got thtis thing along with soem I2S image processor/display units (high-end (for 1979 [1]) graphics systems for PDP11s and other minincomputers. It was possibly used for pritnign the output of one of thsoe. [1] IIRC the resolution is 512*512 pixels. The units have multiple 'byteplanes' of that size, the outputs of which go through programamble look-up tables, and are then added. further lookup tables the go between the outptu fo the adder and the DACs (8 or 10 bit per colour). There are lots of other feautres too, like an overlayed bitplane for text, historgramming of the displayed data and even somethign called the 'feedback ALU' where planes 0 and 1 becoem a 16 bit accumulator, you cna then dio the function Acc := Acc Op Another_plane. Where 'Op' is anything a 74181 can do, and the othee plane cn be arbritratily shifted around. Oh yes, and unlike the GPU in the Rpi, you get docs. Real docs. There's a _large_ binder of scheamtics... > > I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' > > meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of > > the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid > > camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive (...) > > OK, so making a camera adapter in a "normal" workshop is confirmed to > be possible. Apart from interfacing the signals, it looks as if the most Yes. This is actually a fairly simple bit of metalwork. From what I rememebr it's basically 2 flat plaets at right angles. One is fitted to the front of the Videoprinte, the other sticks out at the bottom like a shelf to suport the caemra. There are a couple of little side plates to strengthen it and keep it rigid. It's all bolted together with allen cap-head screws. The 2 thumbscrees that fix it to the videopritner look to have been home-maed on a lathe. The knurling pattern is differnet to the official ones, for example. In the horzontal part of the bearcket there's a slot, I suspect a 1/4" BSW screw went through there and inot the tripod bush of the camera. > complicated part of it was somehow joining the camera body, the lens and > the distance tube in a mechanically solid and light-tight fashion I thinmk it took a noiraml SLR camera (I sould guess a Nikon or a Cannon, but I am not sure). I susepct it used a lens and extension tubes from that system, so the back of the lens to the film was easy to keep light-tight. There woas probably some kind of tebe fro mthe frojnt of the lens to the vertal part of the bracket, it might be soekthign as simple as a lens hood. The bracket is failrly deep from the lense hole ot the horizotnal part, I suspect it took a camera wit ha motordrive and that the mystery connector connected to the remote release of that. [Hacking an SLR onto this] > > Seems like a very sane approach. I'll have to see what I can come up > with, as I know for sure I don't have a broken SLR in my junk box... I have plenty of cameras that I need to repair, but none of them are electronic (by choice!). But unless you want soemthign exotic, broken 35mm electornci cameras are not that expensive now. You might even get a working one with an electronic remote release for not too much money. As for the lens, an elnerger lens would be a good choice I think. You would have to get ot make an adapter to fit it to the caemra, and get soem kind of extension tubes, buc such things do exist, or can be made. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:35:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:35:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 4, 12 05:41:48 pm Message-ID: > > Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. > > Two terms that are easy to define to 80% accuracy, but very difficult > when used to split hairs of the type "machine X is/is not a personal > computer". Precisely. It's often poitless to do so as well. I think most people would agree that soemthing like, say, a BBC micro is a 'personal computer' (although not the first) and a Cray is not. But there are always borderline cases. > > > Do programmable > > calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? > > > > [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) > > I would say that if a particular device is considered to be a > calculator, programmable or not, it's not eligible for moniker > "personal computer". A computer that can't calculate isn't much of a In which case, the HP9830 doens;'t qualify. It's called a 'Model 30 Calcualtor' in some literature. Point is, at the time it was called a 'calculator' for marketing reasons. It wasn't like a 'computer', it didn't need an air-conditioned room, raised flooring, a maintenance contract, an operating staff, etc. It was just soemthing you put on a desk or bench and started to use. Like a calcualtor. The fact that it has a QWERTY keyborad, an alphanumeric display and programs in BASIC would seem to make it a computer, though, by modern definitions. > computer, and likewise a calculator that can't "compute" is just a > calculator. IMO, the difference is intended use and especially the > UI. Calculators have numeric keypads and mathematical function keys, > and if they have alpha keys, those are often a secondary feature. > Computers tend towards toggle switches, simple keypads (0-F plus load, > run, etc), or full typewriter-style alphanumeric keyboards with > symbols commonly used when writing human languages, not just > mathematical expressions. Agian there are plenty of borderlien cases IMHO> > Right. Just because a different machine requires multiple cabinets or > load media, or only interfaces to the user via lights and switches > doesn't make it less of a computer, just different, and probably for a > different type of user/customer. Sure. There are amny machiens which can reasonably be claimed ot be part of the evolution leading up to the sort of machine that most people use today, and each is a valid machien to resotre, document, etc. It's pointless to argue as to which is the 'first personal computer'. > > It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" > and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said > characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". > I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first > personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM > Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly > easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal > computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). I have an ideas that there was an advertising flyer for the HP65 (a machine which has a justifyable claim to the title of 'first handheld programmable calculator, althohgh the (much inferior) Sumlock Compucorp 322 predated it by a couple of weeks) which called it 'Your personal computing system' or something like that. it's certainly a calculator (key per function, no alpha at all), but on the other hand it is user-prgoramamble, it is 'personal' (it goes in your pocket) and it does do computations. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:13:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:13:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4A1FF.6090002@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 4, 12 04:05:19 pm Message-ID: > Sure, that makes sense. But in this case, the information wasn't just > incomplete, it was DEAD WRONG. The imparted knowledge won't have to be > amended later, it will have to be un-learned. That's a big difference! Precisely. As I said last night, I have no problem with, say, Newtonian mechanics being taught. Yes, it's incomplete. It's an apporximation. But it's a veyery useful approximation, It's oen that you later learn _is_ an apporximation, but you don;'t ahev to unlearn it. I have no problem with DC circuit throry (all impedance is pure resistive) being taught either. It's also an apporximation (classically, yo ucan never get to the steady state in any cirucit, all circutis ahve some inducatance and capacitance), and you will have ot learn the AC theory later. But equally, the AC theory builds on the DC part, and if you do ahve a ismple DC circuit, the simple theory predicts results to the accuracy you can measure them. But it is not an 'approximation' tht the Macintosh was the first personal computer. IMHO there is no reasonable definition of 'personal computer' that makes that statemetn remotely true. It's just plain wrong. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:40:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:40:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4BC4D.3080503@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 4, 12 10:57:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/07/2012 05:19, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in > >> the era of floppies being standard)? > > > > The HP 150 came out two months earlier. > > ACT Apricot precedes even that, though not by much. The Wikipedia AFAIK The Apricot had no true text mode eithre. The Aprocot vidoe system is a bit strange. There's the normal 'CRT controller' to address the video RAM and generate timing signals. The video RAM is 2K*16 bits. some bits of which are used as attributes, but 11 bitsd (I think) are used as the 'chracter'. This addresses an area of the main DRAM which cotnains the character patters. Now, you can use that as a convnetional text display. Assume you only have 256 chracters, load the patterns into the right bit fo the main memroy, nad put the character codes in the 2K video RAM. But note that 11 bits is enough to have a differenc chracter pattern at each fo the 80*24 loctaions on the screen. So you can store a differnet chracter code in each location and then use the appropriate area of the main memory to control idividuyal pixels on the display. I think the Sirius/Victor 9000 does the same thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:47:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:47:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704152035.L2587@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 12 03:24:45 pm Message-ID: > I DID put "tamper-proof" in the obligatory quotation marks. > The 5150 did predate the Mac, and used the "tamper-proof" torx on the > power supply. That did necessitate an excursion to another room. IIRC the 5155 (PortablePC) used bristol spline screws in the monitor section. The tools for those are a lot harder to get here than Torx drivers. For some unknwn reason the Ferret (a combined breakout box, currnet loop/RS232/Centronics covnerter, strip pritner and EPROM programmer) is assembled with System Zero screws. Now those _are_ a pain... > > > > Manchester Mk 1? It had CRTs used for the main store, not video display :-) > > Wow! like to see that. I refer to Williams Tubes, of course. Actualylm I think there were monbitor CRTs to display the contents of the store (as an array of dots), but I couldn't resist giving that answer.... Yo ucna't se ethe origian becuase it no longer exists, but there's a reproduction of it i nthe museum in Mangchester. I've seen it (not in operaiton, they do run it from time to time). It's stretching the defintion of 'personal comnputer' of course... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:53:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:53:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704153002.H2587@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 12 03:59:31 pm Message-ID: > Then the TRS80/Pet/Apple][ machines came out. I maintain that those three > were TIED for their relative timing. Different choices of measurement I agree. > For example, "First portable" is generally assigned to Osborne. But, the > 5100 is clearly earlier. So is the Antikythera, but y'all probably will I beleive there was an officil carrying handle that you could bolt to an HP9830. And the Philips P850 minicomputer optionally came in a tabletop cabinet with carrying handels. Are those 'portables'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 15:25:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:25:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jul 5, 12 06:28:25 pm Message-ID: > All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: > > 1. I don't have a keyboard or monitor to go with it. I see from the > manual on Bitsavers that the monitor gets a composite video signal, > and that the keyboard uses 4800-baud 8-N-1 RS423 signalling. Is the > protocol described anywhere? It's a plain LK201 keyboard, asused on VT220s, VT3xxs, etc. Are you sure there's no one somwhere in all thac collection. I am pretty sure I have a document giving the keyboard protocol if yoy need it. The monitor is a RS170 (US TV rate) composite one. Or RS170 RGB, sync-on-green if you have the 'extended bitmap option' and want to do colour (a mono moitor works fine with the extended bitmap option, you just get a greyscale, not colour). I am pretty sure pinouts of the DA15 keyboard/video connector are in the mnauls on bitsavers, or search the archives of this list for my 'universal rainbow monitor cable'. It's much the same. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 15:39:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > I think your opinion of how well they sold may be coloured by the > population you hung around in. We ALL do the "EVERYBODY [that I knew] used them!" "everybody started out on Apple][" "everybody had a doubler in their TRS80" "everybody uses a Mac" "everybody uses Linux" "everybody has an iPhone" From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 18:22:08 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120705162032.A42959@shell.lmi.net> > > When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used > outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen ounces... Ah, so it's only the visiting Yanks that get served 16 ounces when they order a pint! At 20 ounces, I can see charging more than a pound. > > the world economies are in big trouble. > Ah. Well. > :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 18:58:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:58:01 -0400 Subject: Newtons we have loved was Re: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> References: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Still, of the Newton machines, the eMate is more convenient and conventional > IMHO. Anyone know how to repair the eMate flex cable that gets damaged when the hinge spring lets loose? I've bent the spring ends over and added the washer to keep the spring from slipping again (the standard field repair), but I've got one or two eMates with the common symptom of "touch screen doesn't work" from spring damage and no replacement cables. Can one scrape back the insulation and solder another flex cable across the damage? Thanks, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 19:21:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net> > > When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, > > the world economies are in big trouble. On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used > outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen ounces... I should point out, that I was taught that in school; taught that it was a "British saying", and that "the world around" referred to when "the sun never sets on the British Empire". Q: Does being taught WRONG information have a bad effect? Q: Would charging a pound for a pint (of either size) help the overall world situation? BTW, I just received my "international edition" of 2ed "Art of Electronics". The paper is thin, but the printing is good. It does not have the TITLE PAGE! That, and the obverse have information that I find interesting about the publication history, copyrights, etc. Are those "international editions" AUTHORIZED reprintings? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 13:49:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:49:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 12 07:07:04 pm Message-ID: > I learned it as "A pint's a pound the world around" for the US and So enven then the US thought it was the world :-) > "A pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter" for the British > version. YEs, that;s the version I heard. Can anyone rememebr more of the metric conversion rhymes that were inflcited on the public about 40 yuears ago over here? The ones I can rememebr are : 'Two nad a quarter pounds of jam Weighs about a kilogram' And 'Three feet make one yard That's not very hard A metre measures three foot three It's longer than a yard you see' Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is trivial to do in your head. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 13:40:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:40:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? In-Reply-To: <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 5, 12 05:21:56 pm Message-ID: > "the sun never sets on the British Empire". 'The sun never sets on tnhe British Empire becuase the sun sets in the west and the Birtish Empire is in the east' :-) > Q: Does being taught WRONG information have a bad effect? I think it does. I object ot having to unlearn anything. And as I have said before it is possible ot over-simplify things. I could never understnad the simple books on how telephone exchanges work. Only when I got a copy of 'Telephony' and acutally went through the schematics in there, relay by rely, did it all make sense. > BTW, I just received my "international edition" > of 2ed "Art of Electronics". The paper is thin, Excellent. You have some fun reading ahead :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 14:09:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:09:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Jul 6, 12 09:03:11 am Message-ID: > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial ports, > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. I wondered if it was that board. I have one in one of my Pros IIRC the 24 TTL I/O lines are driven by an 8255, so yuo can only set the directions in blocks (You can set the driections of port A, port B, and each half of portC in the simplest case). And changing the direction will set all outputs to 0. Not my favourite device.. Is there any techncial infromation o nthis board anywhere? Software to drive it? -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 6 19:17:40 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 17:17:40 -0700 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:35 PM +0100 7/6/12, Mark Wickens wrote: >video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg >- the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > >Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >Can anyone provide any more information please? Unfortunately I can't remember any details, I think I heard about it years ago. It looks a lot like the screen provided to the US Military sometime around 1992 as part of a 3rd party Sparc portable system though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 6 22:47:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 6 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from > celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is > 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a > thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort > of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is > trivial to do in your head. Damn! All this time, I've been multiplying by 1.8 and adding 32; no wonder I've been getting it wrong! In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is about 3.14 or 22/7. The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and exactly 22/7. I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 7 10:46:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 08:46:07 -0700 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Mark Wickens wrote: > video on youtube: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related > I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - > the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > > Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. > Can anyone provide any more information please? I don't know the DEC model number, but it used a plasma panel made by Planar Systems. My recollection was that the resolution was slightly more than 1024x768. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 7 10:43:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 08:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF75570.12793.3173541@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> <4FF75570.12793.3173541@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120707083919.Q3490@shell.lmi.net> > > In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is > > about 3.14 or 22/7. > > The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and > > exactly 22/7. I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. On Fri, 6 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You went to elementary school in Indiana? California. Kensington ("suburb" of Berkeley) The real question is where did the TEACHER go to school. Once people learn that kinda crap, they go on to push it on others. When I was teaching "computer math" (beginning, mostly teaching what floating point is, etc.) I had a couple of students who ALSO had been taught "EXACTLY 22/7" (from other schools)! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 7 13:24:28 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 11:24:28 -0700 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF87EDC.50201@brouhaha.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks > like EL to me My recollection was that DEC used a plasma panel, but I could be wrong. I agree that the color in the photo is consistent with EL. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 7 14:13:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:13:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 6, 12 08:47:45 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from > > celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is > > 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a > > thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort > > of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is > > trivial to do in your head. > > Damn! > All this time, I've been multiplying by 1.8 and adding 32; no wonder I've > been getting it wrong! Yes, that; the exact conversion (as you well know), which is what I sue when I am doing colour processing, or settign up a thermocouple thermometer, or... The point is 'double it and add 30' is easy to do in your head. And it _is_ good enough for weather temperatures (which are hardly exact in the first place). > > > In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is about > 3.14 or 22/7. Err, 355/113 :-) > > The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and exactly > 22/7. > I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. 'And for that number We motals know as pi He proved threan-and-one-seventh Wsa a little bit too high' >From the Archimedeans (Cambridge University maths society) song. Heover , any teacher who doesn't realise that pi is irrational, or doesnt'; know what irrational means, shoudln't be in the job. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 7 14:21:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF7FEB2.944.6EF2E4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 7, 12 09:17:38 am Message-ID: > I was once thrown out of class and blackballed from NHS for insisting > that my high-school (PhD yet) chemistry teacher was wrong. > Something about me not having the proper respect for authority... One of my hobbies at school was disrupting lessons by asking nasty qeustions _on the subject of the lesson_. Point being had they kicked me out for doing that, my parents would have exploded with the school Seriously. I once walked out a physics lesson and said I would only return when the teacher had actually learnt some basic physics. That did not go down well. But, you know, I am still waiting for a defintion of a (scientific) measurement that does not involve comparison to a standard. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 17:37:23 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 18:37:23 -0400 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks like EL > to me > > (we used some Planar EL panels in the early 90s) I've got a couple Planar ELT-320 terminals and what I think is an EGA standalone display. I agree - that yellow looks more like ELT to me than Plasma. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 10:38:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 08:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> > > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind > > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > Is this a D&D reference? What is D&D? Is that a debugger for Report Program Generator messes? S'posedly, there is even a Windoze "WINRPG"! WHY wasn't the RPG STD cured and stamped out in 1959? Instead, it spread and spawned RPG II ten years later. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 10:41:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 08:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net>, <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120709084133.B70316@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, people made their living programming stuff like this at one > time. Real "old school". If'n you can call that "living" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:49:33 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:49:33 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind >> > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" > On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Is this a D&D reference? > > What is D&D? > Is that a debugger for Report Program Generator messes? I really have no idea which messages in this thread are serious and which are sarcastic, but to help out "old school" and "new school" alike (i.e., to disambiguate) If you were a teenager after about 1978, RPG probably means "Role Playing Game" to you. If you learned to program before 1978, RPG probably means "Report Program Generator" to you. D&D in this thread means "Dungeons and Dragons". It's likely that many on this list have played it, but it's also equally likely that many have not. So there you have it. If this has all been thinly-veiled puns, my apologies - it was too subtle for me. -ethan From george at rachors.com Wed Jul 4 08:06:42 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 06:06:42 -0700 Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <201207021641.q62GfVlA6029466@floodgap.com> References: <201207021641.q62GfVlA6029466@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8B8DC0B8-76DB-436F-ABCC-94FB183B8CFD@rachors.com> Cameron? The machine has 2.. Shall I try removing one at a time? George On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> After a few minutes plugged in.. (Battery still remove) we have gone back >> to the original systems. led flashes on while power button is depressed, >> The fans start briefly then slow back down. I hear the disk drive start >> but no other activity_ > > Check the processor module. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jul 4 09:46:40 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 09:46:40 -0500 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF45750.4000704@charter.net> Regardless of normality, I guess if it were me I'd be thinking about what could cause that. Looking at my drawings, it looks like there are some things might affect the timing of a memory readout with respect to READ(1), and since some of them are derived from manual vs. run timing, this may not be a big surprise. The things I spotted from the schamatics were: 1) The address lines being asserted. [Now, one would HOPE that those were locked in before strobing the memory, but maybe that is the problem, and that does look like the most likely culprit.] 2) The timing of the strobe pulse [Which *should* be fixed from the delay line.] 3) B MEM ENABLE (which also affects the current drivers) [But this signal *should* be static being drived from not power clear] 4) NEG CLAMP [This should also be static] I didn't see anything else, so you should probably look at the timing on the MA Load and MA lines vs. READ(1). Or, as another has suggested, a power supply / decoupling issue of some crazy sort. If the address lines are the issue, is it one or are they all (consistently) different in comparison to READ(1) in manual vs. RUN? If they are all (consistently) different with respect to READ(1) in manual vs. RUN, then I'd check MA LOAD and its relationship to READ(1). I noted that one line that controls MA LOAD is Not KEY CONT. The others are TP4 and MFTP1. MFTP1 also has a relationship to manual operation, of course. On 7/2/2012 7:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM is still wrestling with the core in the PDP-8. > After replacing some diodes on the core stack we have all addresses working. > > We observed an interesting core memory behavior during our debugging > last Saturday. > We started the memory alignment procedure by looking at the > STROBE FIELD 0 signal and the amplifier output on pin E1 of the sense > amplifier. The STROBE signal was very late compared to Figure 5-6 in > the 8/L Maintenance Manual. We ran a short JMP loop and adjusted the > relationship with the trimpot on the M360 delay module. When we halted the > processor and tried a examine core we only got just zeros. > > We adjusted the M360 delay back where it was and single step worked > again. We found that the strobe-to-one-bit relationship was almost > 100ns earlier when in single-step than it was with the processor > running. We checked the whole timing path from MEM START at pin N2 of > the M113 in slot C03, through all of the gates, delays, and > flip-flops, and found no timing difference between single-step and > running. Right now it looks like there is a 100ns delay difference > between the READ(1) signal that turns on the current in the core and > the bit signal showing up on the E1 pin of the sense amplifier when in > the single-step and running. > > Is this normal behavior? > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 4 11:04:37 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <8B8DC0B8-76DB-436F-ABCC-94FB183B8CFD@rachors.com> from George Rachor at "Jul 4, 12 06:06:42 am" Message-ID: <201207041604.q64G4bw415138894@floodgap.com> > Cameron > The machine has 2.. Shall I try removing one at a time? Which specific model of G5 is this? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 4 13:28:10 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 11:28:10 -0700 Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Jul 3, at 5:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could > be in better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a > monitor is cosmetic, no?), but they were working the last time I > turned them on. I used to get big bucks for these bad boys. But > their day has long come and gone :(. Damned LCDs! I'm just in the process of disposing of two of them (apple- and sun- badged 19" sonys) (scavenging a few components like high-voltage transistors before they go), along with a few other CRTs/monitors to get rid of. The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, although there is a nostalgia factor to green and amber monochrome phosphor. I suppose someday there will be for a color CRT too, but I'm not there yet. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 11:35:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <0BD6DD05-9BE0-4476-92F7-5153ED3EE9B0@gmail.com> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <0BD6DD05-9BE0-4476-92F7-5153ED3EE9B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120709093322.T72483@shell.lmi.net> > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. > > iPod > > iPhone > > iPad On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Raymond Wiker wrote: > Pft. All of those were a lot better than what was already on the market, > and in most cases, a better/more desirable product didn't appear until > the next generation from Apple. Saying that these were just "iterations" > of existing products is disingenious. Nevertheless, going back to Dwight's original question, no matter how "awesome" they are, NONE of them were "inventions". From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 4 13:44:00 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 11:44:00 -0700 Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's Message-ID: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? Not that I need to find an original, I'm disassembling and 'reverse- sourcing' the firmware (~700 bytes) for some equipment from 1977 with an embedded 1802, and just idly assessing what the likelihood is that it was produced with a machine assembler vs. hand-assembled. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 13:52:23 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:52:23 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th Message-ID: Hi Guys, Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week or two. Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ A quick inventory: PDP stuff: - PDP 11/44 - PDP 11/84 - 3 x RL02 - Professional 325 - Professional 350 VAX stuff: - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, ...) - 3 x R400X storage pedestal - 3 x R215F storage pedestal - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion MIPS stuff: - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 - DECstation 2100 - DECstation 5000/133 - DECstation 5000/200 Alpha stuff: - 2 x DEC3000 Miscellaneous stuff: - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box - 2 x HSZ40 - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 - 5 x DECserver 700 - 3 x DECserver 200/MC - LANbridge 200 - Lots of DEChub stuff - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? Cheers, Camiel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 4 13:54:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 14:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201207041854.OAA17733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, Me neither, in theory. But even the cheapest of CRTs could usually autosync to a video signal without putting half a character - or sometimes more - off the edge of the visible display, something I regularly find "modern" flatscreens doing. And this is when connected to peecees, too. And I have a CRT that's willing to sync to a much-too-wide video signal, just squashing it down. It doesn't look good, but it mostly works; text is legible, for example. Modern flatscreens usually display nothing, or at most an "I can't display this" box, instead of doing something sensible with such input. And CRTs could sync to a signal within a frame or two. In my experience, LCDs generally take more like a second, which makes a substantial difference when I'm trying to catch sight of something that come and goes quickly. And a CRT switching from a given signal to the same signal but with a phase glitch because the video hardware got reset typically just jumps for a few tens of milliseconds. LCDs typically do a full "resync to the signal" operation, displaying nothing for several hundred milliseconds. And don't get me started on the way LCDs insist on damaging perfectly good video signals by scaling, rather than letterboxing. I have one - ONE - flatscreen that can be told to letterbox rather than scale. (CRTs generally scaled, but the result wasn't as damaging to the result as it is on LCDs.) And even when scaling - when displaying an 1152x900 signal on a 1920x1080 CRT, it just stretched; when I tried it on an LCD, I typically wound up with something like 1/4 of the display completely off-screen, with no way to manually adjust it back on. Yes, it was a crappy LCD, but crappy CRTs got it righter than that. Or how hard a time I had getting a 1920x1080 LCD to sync to a 1920x1080 signal from my SS20. This sort of thing Just Worked on CRTs. In short, find me flatscreens with the functionality of my CRTs and then we can talk about trashing the CRTs. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 14:05:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 12:05:24 -0700 Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's In-Reply-To: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4FF43184.31338.93D362@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2012 at 11:44, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) > assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? > > Not that I need to find an original, I'm disassembling and 'reverse- > sourcing' the firmware (~700 bytes) for some equipment from 1977 with > an embedded 1802, and just idly assessing what the likelihood is that > it was produced with a machine assembler vs. hand-assembled. Almost all manufacturers of the early micros offered cross-assemblers (usually FORTRAN) for their products. I'd be surprised if the CDP1802 wasn't among that crowd, given its simplicity. --Chuck From codeblue at inbox.lv Wed Jul 4 14:09:54 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (Code Blue) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 19:09:54 +0000 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 08:52:23PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Holy $%^& Batman! I'll put in my request for one of the VAX pizza boxes as soon as Dave McGuire tells me which one I should ask for! -- _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary / \ Mutt.org attachments Code Blue or Go Home! From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Jul 4 14:14:11 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:14:11 +0200 Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's In-Reply-To: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201207041914.q64JEBP2026958@ls-al.eu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) > assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? > > Not that I need to find an original, I'm disassembling and 'reverse- > sourcing' the firmware (~700 bytes) for some equipment from 1977 with > an embedded 1802, and just idly assessing what the likelihood is that > it was produced with a machine assembler vs. hand-assembled. > If you don't get your answer, these guys are pretty knowledgeable: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/ re, Sander From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:18:37 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:18:37 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> References: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Code Blue wrote: > On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 08:52:23PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > Holy $%^& Batman! > > I'll put in my request for one of the VAX pizza boxes as soon as Dave > McGuire tells me which one I should ask for! I guess I should have mentioned that the stuff is located in the Netherlands... From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 4 14:38:34 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:38:34 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> Message-ID: <4FF49BBA.1060703@bluewin.ch> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I suppose you will be moving into a bigger apartment ? Congrats on the haul, Jos From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Jul 4 14:51:43 2012 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:51:43 +0200 Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) Message-ID: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > (...) it displys TV-rate video on an > > > internal CRT and photographs it. > > > > > > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna > > > print a colour inamge in 3 goes. > > > > (...) > > AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate > video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. (...) there's a disk > with 4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to > move them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's > microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t > rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. So it must takes RGB component input (no decoder) and you have to feed it a "freeze frame" video signal, i.e. keep the image content static (no framestore) until the three exposures have been completed? > (...) As I mentioned, the optics is a standard, and not very > good (Soligor, I think) enlarger lese. It's essentially fixed focus > (well evetyhing is at a fixed distance, so that's OK), it's fitted to a > meatl tuve which slites into the camera body and is lcoked by a > setscrew. Presumably you can focus it if necessary when you repari the > unit. > > I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' > meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of > the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid > camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive (...) OK, so making a camera adapter in a "normal" workshop is confirmed to be possible. Apart from interfacing the signals, it looks as if the most complicated part of it was somehow joining the camera body, the lens and the distance tube in a mechanically solid and light-tight fashion without messing up the distances between the components as you go. > Err, yes... I think if I was going to make this, I would start wit ha > dead electronic SLR, though. On the grounds it has interchagealbe lenses, > a motor to wind the film and solenoids to open/close the shutter. Then > remove the dead electroncis and make my own cotnrolelr. Whether I'd leave > the mirror in palce I don;t know, it might be easier to do so if the > sugger mwchanism depends on it for the corraect sequece. Seems like a very sane approach. I'll have to see what I can come up with, as I know for sure I don't have a broken SLR in my junk box... > Well, an enlarger lens is typically used to enlarge :-). What I mean is > that the distance from the front to whatever (paper in an enalrger) is > longer than the distance from the back to whatver (negative in an > enlrager). So if you put the CRT where the paper would be and the film > (in the cmaera body) where the negative should be, it'll work and > produce a reduced image of the CRT on the film. > > That sounds like waht yuu want. Ahh, I see. I had something backwards but now I can't see what it was... Thank you so far, Arno. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 14:55:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 15:55:16 -0400 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> References: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> Message-ID: <4FF49FA4.1020506@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 03:09 PM, Code Blue wrote: > On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 08:52:23PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > Holy $%^& Batman! > > I'll put in my request for one of the VAX pizza boxes as soon as Dave > McGuire tells me which one I should ask for! Huh? Well. The OP wasn't specific about what models of pizza boxen were acquired, but if you can talk him out of any one of the VAXstation-4000 series, they'd do you very well. The -90 is quite fast. The -60, not so much, but it's still a good performer. They both pull very little power. Lacking that, a 3100-m76 is a decent machine, and made of SERIOUS METAL...you could drop it, park a car on it, do whatever and it just won't care. Very different from the plastic chassis that followed that model line. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 15:00:15 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:00:15 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 July 2012 19:52, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > wow! I take it that means you don't want my DEC books then ;) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 15:02:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF4A165.7090009@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 02:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > A quick inventory: > > PDP stuff: > - PDP 11/44 > - PDP 11/84 > - 3 x RL02 > - Professional 325 > - Professional 350 > > VAX stuff: > - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, ...) > - 3 x R400X storage pedestal > - 3 x R215F storage pedestal > - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) > - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion > - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) > - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion > > MIPS stuff: > - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) > - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 > - DECstation 2100 > - DECstation 5000/133 > - DECstation 5000/200 > > Alpha stuff: > - 2 x DEC3000 > > Miscellaneous stuff: > - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box > - 2 x HSZ40 > - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 > - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 > - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 > - 5 x DECserver 700 > - 3 x DECserver 200/MC > - LANbridge 200 > - Lots of DEChub stuff > - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... That is an AMAZING haul. Congratulations! > I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next > few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll > probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or > give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin > eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) > > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and I know the Pro series pretty well; I used to sell and service them. They are pretty well-understood amongst many people on this list. You won't have trouble getting Pro help here. > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? Yes, it's basically a PC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wolfgang at eichberger.org Wed Jul 4 16:15:34 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 23:15:34 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Holy cow. You made a decent score. Let me know if you need informations about the Professionals... Regards, Wolfgang 2012/7/4 Adrian Graham > On 4 July 2012 19:52, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > > or two. Pictures at > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > > > wow! I take it that means you don't want my DEC books then ;) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 4 17:01:18 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? > Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? I sold some install disks for MS Windows for the VAXmate aout a year ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 4 17:23:54 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 23:23:54 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <4FF4A165.7090009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <22B2E2C2010E4B2986F9DDB3B9E1264C@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Miscellaneous stuff: >> - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box >> - 2 x HSZ40 >> - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 >> - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 >> - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 >> - 5 x DECserver 700 >> - 3 x DECserver 200/MC >> - LANbridge 200 >> - Lots of DEChub stuff >> - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... Cool. I recognised the DECnis before I even read the listing. I never held on to a 600 (too big ...) when I left the development group, but I did hang on to the smaller DECnis 500. Some DEChub gear too. A very nice haul. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 11:52:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120709094750.H73140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Derrik Walker wrote: > I started on a Commodore 64. > I never had a Trash80 > I built my career on Linux ( from UNIX ) > I use a Mac > I use an iPhone, only because of the integration with Mac OS. > I'm definitely NOT everybody. I know a number of former Apple II users > and one Thrash80 user. Definitely not everybody. > > Besides, I've always had the impression that EVERYBODY uses Windows. Sadly, that is close to true. It does not change the fact that people's personal surroundings tend to affect their perceptions of larger social demographics, disunirregardless of whether you consider yourself to be an exception. (typed on a hotel lobby Windoze XP HPaq) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:44:10 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:44:10 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Isn't RPG something that goes "WOOOOOSH" then later "BOOOM"? Ooh... yeah... forgot about that one... If you were American and 19 somewhere between about 1964 and 1974, _that_ might be the first thing that comes to mind for the letters R, P and G. Or perhaps something else comes to mind... http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RPG -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 13:15:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120709111451.G75608@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Isn't RPG something that goes "WOOOOOSH" then later "BOOOM"? That was a military implementation. The original IBM RPG could blow-up without ever needed to "WOOOOOSH"! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 9 13:34:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:34:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF9C105.5080901@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Jul 8, 12 07:19:01 pm Message-ID: > I think the problem was more with the school than the teacher, they > should have got a teacher who knew the subject. Well, as I've said before, I never had a maths or physics teacher who I regarded as clueful. These were the subjects, of coursem where I'd done a lot of extra readign and had discovered the interesting bits for myself. It's quite possible that otehr teachers were as cleless, I was jsut not able to spot it. Perhaps more worryingly, I never had a teacher who inspired me. > Sadly, there is the same problem here. A lot, if not most, of the > primary and secondary school teachers-to-be here do not know even basic > mathematics. The University here (the one which produces engineers and > Ph Ds in engineering, physics and chemistry) added an extra year to the > M Sc courses long ago, so as to allow the students to catch up with the > maths and physics. Even in the early 1970s, the curriculum in the UK up > to O-levels was at least a year ahead of that here in Sweden; I went to Now that's intersting. The exams are realyl dubmbed down here now, certainly compared ot what I did. I wonder if that was to bring us into line with other countries :-(. A friend of mine was studying maths at the second-oldest English universtiy abvot 110 years ago. Soem of the stuff he was being taught in the first year was stuff I'd covered at school (officially, not things I'd decided to teach myself). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 9 13:43:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:43:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: <20120709000047.42e0cff3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 9, 12 00:00:47 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a > > DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ has several converters for different > keyboards. LKx01 to PS/2 and vice versa is here: > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-ps2-dec/ > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ At a quick glance, those keyboard converters seem to mostly be going the wrong way for us. THey are to use strange keyboards on hosts with PS/2 interfaces. So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not the reverse. Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 20:38:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1341452291.91984.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Brent Hilpert On 2012 Jul 3, at 5:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could be in better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a monitor is cosmetic, no?), but they were working the last time I turned them on. I used to get big bucks for these bad boys. But their day has long come and gone :(. Damned LCDs! I'm just in the process of disposing of two of them (apple- and sun-badged 19" sonys) (scavenging a few? components like high-voltage transistors before they go), along with a few other CRTs/monitors to get rid of. C: Not all Sony GDM's were created equal. The IBM badged units I have were superior to the rest. Believe me. The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, although there is a nostalgia factor to green and amber monochrome phosphor. I suppose someday there will be for a color CRT too, but I'm not? there yet. C: So why cry over the demise of anything??? I still have my (coverless, otherwise nearly complete) Cheap VGA Book, which was ridiculously named. It described how to utilize large crt workstation monitors, although I personally was unsuccessful at finding anything under 48khz, and even those were rare. Never found a 32-36khz monitor. Thems were the things to have back in the day. If I walked into thrift show or a swap meet and saw one (also a pitifully rare occurrence), I'd nearly swoon. ?Everyone I know wanted a big monitor. 2000$ for a multisync was unjustifiable by everyone but businesses and graphic professionals. I'm trying to fenagle a deal w/mom so I don't have to throw these out. Stick em in the old shed or something. ?I cry over the demise of the big beautiful black and white monitor myself. The first I ever obtained was w/a used Mac II. Can't remember the name. Noticeable screen burn, but still sharp as a tack! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 23:11:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but there is noticeable screen burn even when off. I have some disks, and the 8" drive cabinet. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 23:47:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:47:38 -0700 Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FF4B9FA.9317.2A8DF87@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2012 at 21:11, Chris Tofu wrote: > I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ > plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but there is noticeable screen > burn even when off. I have some disks, and the 8" drive cabinet. Great box, too bad shipping cross-country is a killer. --Chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 05:48:51 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:48:51 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Did a bit (;-) of reorganising in my garage after yesterdays arrivals. I have now built a Grey Wall of VAX (Not manuals ;-). Pictures available at the same link. I also took a more thorough inventory of the VAX systems. Where I list three or more of the same type, expect to see some of these offered in a few months or so (remember, these are in the Netherlands): BA213, BA215 and BA440 VAXen (pedestal): - 1 x MicroVAX 3300 - 3 x MicroVAX 3400 - 2 x VAX 4000/200 - 1 x VAXserver 4000/200 - 2 x VAX 4000/300 - 2 x VAXserver 4000/300 - 2 x VAX 4000/500A - 1 x VAX 4000/600 BA42 VAXen - 5 x MicroVAX 3100/? (BA42-A) - 5 x MicroVAX 3100/? (BA42-B) - 4 x MicroVAX 3100/40 - 3 x MicroVAX 3100/80 - 1 x MicroVAX 3100/90 - 11 x VAXstation 3100/? (BA42-A) - 1 x VAXstation 3100/? (BA42-B) - 6 x VAXstation 3100/38 - 1 x VAXstation 3100/38 SPX - 3 x VAXstation 3100/76 - 2 x VAXserver 3100/? (BA42-A) - 1 x VAXserver 3100/? (BA42-B) - 3 x VAXstation 4000/60 - 4 x InfoServer 150 - 2 x InfoServer 150 VXT BA40 VAXen: - 2 x MicroVAX 2000 - 1 x VAXserver 2000 - 1 x VAXstation 2000 Cheers, Camiel From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 05:58:08 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:58:08 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: > On a side note, I was expecting a much bigger truck from the description. > Around these parts a truck driving license is only required for the > biggest on the road vehicles, like an 18 wheeler. This is a picture of my > sunny day truck: In the Netherlands, the regular "B" driving license suffices for vehicles with a maximum permissible weight of 3.5 metric tonnes (~ 7,700 pounds). The max. weight for this van is 4.6 metric tonnes (~10,100 pounds), which means it requires a truck ("C") driving license. I believe we kind of loaded it to (if not over) the max (had about 4 inches of clearance between the road and the bottom of the bars under the van). > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9LpcK2X1U2XhOio5c_NeZg02SYNeF4bcqVYhbMgNj_g?feat=directlink Nice! From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 06:14:29 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:14:29 +0200 Subject: Free to a Good Home (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ I did a little first sorting today, and have the following to offer for free to a good home (pickup in Wageningen, the Netherlands only!!!) - Bunch (15 or so) of BA350xx disk cabinets; some with personality module, some without; some with disks, some without; some with skins, some without. See this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/7507055270/ - New-in-box US Robotics modem - Complete VMS 4.4 documentation set (orange wall) - Presumed complete VMS 7.1 documentation set (paperback) - Complete RSX-11M 4.2 documentation set (orange wall) Of the BA350's, I already have way too many. The manual sets are those I already have. Contact me off-list to arrange pickup. If these aren't gone before the end of the month, they'll end up at the scrapper's (frankly, I don't expect much interest in this). Camiel. From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Jul 5 06:21:16 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:21:16 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207051121.q65BLGi6011889@ls-al.eu> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Did a bit (;-) of reorganising in my garage after yesterdays arrivals. > I have now built a Grey Wall of VAX (Not manuals ;-). Pictures > available at the same link. Unbelievable ;) That is some Grey Wall you have there :) > I also took a more thorough inventory of the VAX systems. Where I list > three or more of the same type, expect to see some of these offered in > a few months or so (remember, these are in the Netherlands): > > BA213, BA215 and BA440 VAXen (pedestal): > - 3 x MicroVAX 3400 Write me down for one of those, if you please. Brings back memories when I was doing an internship at Digital here in the Netherlands and that was my `own' machine at the office. re, Sander From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jul 5 06:37:19 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:37:19 +0200 Subject: Free to a Good Home (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF57C6F.10604@update.uu.se> On 07/05/2012 01:14 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > I did a little first sorting today, and have the following to offer > for free to a good home (pickup in Wageningen, the Netherlands > only!!!) > Post a message on nekochan if you are a member. I think there are some active decheads from the Netherlands there. It would be a shame for the RSX manuals to go.. /P From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 08:32:22 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:32:22 +0200 Subject: Free to a Good Home (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I did a little first sorting today, and have the following to offer > for free to a good home (pickup in Wageningen, the Netherlands > only!!!) > > - Bunch (15 or so) of BA350xx disk cabinets; some with personality > module, some without; some with disks, some without; some with skins, > some without. See this picture: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/7507055270/ > - New-in-box US Robotics modem > - Complete VMS 4.4 documentation set (orange wall) > - Presumed complete VMS 7.1 documentation set (paperback) > - Complete RSX-11M 4.2 documentation set (orange wall) > > Of the BA350's, I already have way too many. The manual sets are those > I already have. > > Contact me off-list to arrange pickup. If these aren't gone before the > end of the month, they'll end up at the scrapper's (frankly, I don't > expect much interest in this). > > Camiel. I guess I was wrong about the level of interest. The manuals have been claimed, as have some of the BA350's. Camiel. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:19:49 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:19:49 -0300 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th References: Message-ID: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> Congratulations, now you have "The house of Vax" :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:52 PM Subject: Megahaul on July 4th > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > A quick inventory: > > PDP stuff: > - PDP 11/44 > - PDP 11/84 > - 3 x RL02 > - Professional 325 > - Professional 350 > > VAX stuff: > - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, > ...) > - 3 x R400X storage pedestal > - 3 x R215F storage pedestal > - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) > - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion > - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) > - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion > > MIPS stuff: > - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) > - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 > - DECstation 2100 > - DECstation 5000/133 > - DECstation 5000/200 > > Alpha stuff: > - 2 x DEC3000 > > Miscellaneous stuff: > - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box > - 2 x HSZ40 > - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 > - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 > - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 > - 5 x DECserver 700 > - 3 x DECserver 200/MC > - LANbridge 200 > - Lots of DEChub stuff > - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... > > I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next > few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll > probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or > give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin > eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) > > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? > Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? > > Cheers, > > Camiel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:26:55 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:26:55 -0400 Subject: IBM docs in Chicago are safe Message-ID: I have now confirmed that one of the mainframe guys has rescued the IBM docs. Thanks all for offers of help. You may eventually be called for duty again, as there is apparently a whole bunch of microfiche there than needs to be rescued as well. I do not know the details, nor the urgency. -- Will From wolfgang at eichberger.org Thu Jul 5 11:02:12 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:02:12 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: Awesome. You generated the new definition for a "grey wall". I must state that I have never seen that much of dec-stuff in one place here in Austria. At least not in hobbyists hands... I would gladly take one or two of the vax units or a RL02 drive but am a bit too far away, shipping costs must be killing for that heavy kind of stuff. Regards, Wolfgang 2012/7/5 Alexandre Souza - Listas > > Congratulations, now you have "The house of Vax" :o) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" < > iamcamiel at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:52 PM > Subject: Megahaul on July 4th > > > > Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**7816395 at N04/sets/**72157630422540146/ >> >> A quick inventory: >> >> PDP stuff: >> - PDP 11/44 >> - PDP 11/84 >> - 3 x RL02 >> - Professional 325 >> - Professional 350 >> >> VAX stuff: >> - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, >> ...) >> - 3 x R400X storage pedestal >> - 3 x R215F storage pedestal >> - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) >> - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion >> - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) >> - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion >> >> MIPS stuff: >> - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) >> - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 >> - DECstation 2100 >> - DECstation 5000/133 >> - DECstation 5000/200 >> >> Alpha stuff: >> - 2 x DEC3000 >> >> Miscellaneous stuff: >> - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box >> - 2 x HSZ40 >> - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 >> - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 >> - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 >> - 5 x DECserver 700 >> - 3 x DECserver 200/MC >> - LANbridge 200 >> - Lots of DEChub stuff >> - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... >> >> I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next >> few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll >> probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or >> give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin >> eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) >> >> Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and >> the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? >> Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Camiel >> > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 5 11:25:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 10:25:53 -0600 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: In article , "Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger" writes: > I would gladly take one or two of the vax units or a RL02 drive but am a > bit too far away, shipping costs must be killing for that heavy kind of > stuff. Road trip! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 11:28:25 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:28:25 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I know the Pro series pretty well; I used to sell and service them. > They are pretty well-understood amongst many people on this list. You > won't have trouble getting Pro help here. All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: 1. I don't have a keyboard or monitor to go with it. I see from the manual on Bitsavers that the monitor gets a composite video signal, and that the keyboard uses 4800-baud 8-N-1 RS423 signalling. Is the protocol described anywhere? 2. I found a box with three option cards: 2 x 000046 and 1 x 000401. What are these? Thanks, Camiel. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 5 12:54:15 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:54:15 +0200 Subject: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal Message-ID: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> I've a AEG/Telefunken M28-12W (1974) terminal, it's free but local pickup only. I'm located in the Netherlands.. -Rik From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Jul 5 15:21:28 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:21:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> References: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1341519688.5280.YahooMailNeo@web29102.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Rik ! Though I couldn't find any pictures of that modell, but I'm very interested in it, as I already rescued quite some peripheral equipment from the TR-4 / TR-440 Telefunken mainframe era. So I'l like to add it to my Telefunken "family". I wrote my other Telefunken stuff to the list about it 2 weeks ago. Is the terminal still available ? Do you have a picture? I'm located in Aaken, Germany, very near the dutch border. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Rik Bos An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: 19:54 Donnerstag, 5.Juli 2012 Betreff: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal I've a AEG/Telefunken M28-12W (1974) terminal, it's free but local pickup only. I'm located in the Netherlands.. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 5 15:55:59 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:55:59 +0200 Subject: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> References: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004f01cd5af0$980c5b90$c82512b0$@xs4all.nl> It looks that it's spoken for. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: donderdag 5 juli 2012 19:54 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal > > I've a AEG/Telefunken M28-12W (1974) terminal, it's free but local pickup only. > > I'm located in the Netherlands.. > > > > -Rik From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jul 5 20:26:39 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:26:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <4FF4B9FA.9317.2A8DF87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FF4B9FA.9317.2A8DF87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Jul 2012 at 21:11, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ >> plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but there is noticeable screen >> burn even when off. I have some disks, and the 8" drive cabinet. > > Great box, too bad shipping cross-country is a killer. Indeed. On a related note, I have the floppy drive and keyboard for one of these, so if someone in the US happens across an orphan cpu and monitor for one, I'm still looking. I do have a full set of books and discs (possibly two complete sets, actually) so unless the discs have gone bad due to age, I should have enough software to get one up and running. There were also way more than 5 discs for these. http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/displayw/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 22:07:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zenith Minisport Message-ID: <1341544077.8758.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> anyone have a pinout for the power connector. I don't know what I did in the past, I know at least one of my 2 work. I think I put juice on the battery terminals to get a rudimentary display. Heard a buzzing too ick. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jul 6 00:57:56 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 06:57:56 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53B444BB26DE4008A1A5B24DDBCF81C9@MailBox> Yikes!!! Restoring that lot would keep me busy for years. Pity there is 2000+ mile reason I'll never see anything like that. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 05 July 2012 17:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Megahaul on July 4th At 12:48 PM +0200 7/5/12, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Simply put, WOW! I wish you were local, I'd love one or two of those StorageWorks pedestals. That is one serious collection of VAX hardware! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 03:57:38 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 10:57:38 +0200 Subject: DECNIS Information Message-ID: Hi All, I was looking for information on the DECNIS 600 router, and found this hilarious review, no doubt generated by a highly intelligent computer algorithm ;-) " DEC - DECNIS 600 B1201-MN - DNSAF-MN - - Review by Christopher I was given DEC - DECNIS 600 B1201-MN - DNSAF-MN - item yesterday. It has worked exactly as advertised. Good unit. User friendly to the position that I did not want to look over any information to operate. Checked the distances with other items and feels to be very right. Beaming I made the buy. I would recommend highly this unit to you. " "User friendly to the position that I did not want to look over any information to operate" is what cracked me up. Cheers, Camiel. From reiche at ls-al.eu Fri Jul 6 04:09:00 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 11:09:00 +0200 Subject: DECNIS Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207060909.q66990cF000799@ls-al.eu> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Checked the distances with other items and feels to be very right. > > "User friendly to the position that I did not want to look over any > information to operate" is what cracked me up. > Well, I think it is a good thing as well you don't have to feel bad about all the distances. re, Sander From markbenson at mac.com Fri Jul 6 04:47:09 2012 From: markbenson at mac.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:47:09 +0100 Subject: WTB DECserver telnet Terminal Server Message-ID: As the subject suggests, I am looking for DECserver to go with a VT510 that will allow me to telnet to hosts without a full 'middle-computer'. If available also some ports to hang serial connections (MJ11 or d-series) to would be great too. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From chd at chdickman.com Fri Jul 6 08:03:11 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:03:11 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: > > All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: > > > > 2. I found a box with three option cards: 2 x 000046 and 1 x 000401. > > What are these? > > cf http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > > 000046 PC3XX-AA CTI Realtime Interface > 000046 PN: 50-15538 > 000046 Refs: EB-25824-18 > > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial ports, 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. -chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 08:17:28 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 15:17:28 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/6/12, Charles Dickman wrote: > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial ports, > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. That does sound interesting. Especially given the GPIB -equipped measuring equipment I regularly use. Would you know whether pinout and other specifications are available somewhere? Camiel From chd at chdickman.com Fri Jul 6 11:36:03 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 12:36:03 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On 7/6/12, Charles Dickman wrote: > > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial > ports, > > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit > > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the > > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. > > That does sound interesting. Especially given the GPIB -equipped > measuring equipment I regularly use. Would you know whether pinout and > other specifications are available somewhere? > There is a little here. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ There is more in a VAX manual that I can't seem to find. From wolfgang at eichberger.org Fri Jul 6 13:27:59 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:27:59 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may have a doc set for a Pro380 including the RTI which I can look for tomorrow. Ping me offlist so that I cant forget it while being in family action... Regards, Wolfgang 2012/7/6 Charles Dickman > On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven >wrote: > > > On 7/6/12, Charles Dickman wrote: > > > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial > > ports, > > > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all > exit > > > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as > the > > > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. > > > > That does sound interesting. Especially given the GPIB -equipped > > measuring equipment I regularly use. Would you know whether pinout and > > other specifications are available somewhere? > > > > There is a little here. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ > > There is more in a VAX manual that I can't seem to find. > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jul 6 16:35:02 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 22:35:02 +0100 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 Message-ID: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> In the ; Ken Olsen Thank You Employees video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. Can anyone provide any more information please? Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wickens http://wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.org https://twitter.com/#!/@urbancamo From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Jul 6 20:24:54 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 20:24:54 -0500 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF78FE6.3060501@comcast.net> Looks like a plasma screen, similar to the one of the suitcase style HP Portable computers from the same time-frame From stsauveur at desktopint.com Fri Jul 6 23:39:09 2012 From: stsauveur at desktopint.com (Philip St.Sauveur) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 00:39:09 -0400 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 Message-ID: That display is a DEC VRE01 (electroluminescent flat panel) on a VAXstation 3100 I have a new one - still in the box - I haven't tried it yet.. :-) Phil St.Sauveur -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 8:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 At 10:35 PM +0100 7/6/12, Mark Wickens wrote: >video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg >- the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > >Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >Can anyone provide any more information please? Unfortunately I can't remember any details, I think I heard about it years ago. It looks a lot like the screen provided to the US Military sometime around 1992 as part of a 3rd party Sparc portable system though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 01:44:05 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 18:44:05 +1200 Subject: Known failure modes for the DEC H7441 Power Supply? Message-ID: I am continuing to make progress with the power supply modules for the PDP 11/04. The previous week involved testing and replacing a few of the electrolytic caps... a few pictures and some comment (although no great technical insights) at http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog. Today I got a chance to test the modules. One of the H7441 +5V supplies works fine (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_2.jpg) ... the output is a little high at 5.5v but that could be my meter calibration. I haven't played with the adjustment pot yet until I can confirm that my meter is reading correctly. The other +5V supply doesn't run ( http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_1.jpg)... goes up to just over 1v as the AC comes up and then settles back to 0.5v. The DC voltage after the rectifier and across the main input capacitor looks OK on the meter. I have the PDP11/34 technical drawings with the schematic for the H7441 so will work though it but to get a head start, are there any common failure modes for these supplies that I should check first? The H745 -15V (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_-15V.jpg) supply works fine although the Power OK bulb on the back has failed. I will replace it with an LED + resistor like the H7441. And assuming I sort out the last H7441 are then any recommendations on powering up the backplane? It has the following boards installed plus grant continuity cards as appropriate: M7257 RK05 M7256 RK05 M7255 RK05 M7254 RK05 M7258 Printer M7856 RS232/SLU M7860 General Device Interface M7856 RS232/SLU M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board M9202 Unibus Connector I assume it is good practice to draw a map of all the board locations, then remove them all, power up the backplane and check the power... but what is the next step. My guess is that a minimum set of boards would be the following: M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board Any suggestions? Regards Andrew From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Jul 7 11:50:04 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 09:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jul 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 08:46:07 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 > > Mark Wickens wrote: >> video on youtube: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >> I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - the >> talk around this image is DEC World 1987. >> >> Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >> Can anyone provide any more information please? > > I don't know the DEC model number, but it used a plasma panel made by Planar > Systems. My recollection was that the resolution was slightly more than > 1024x768. > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks like EL to me (we used some Planar EL panels in the early 90s) Peter Wallace From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jul 7 12:50:09 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:50:09 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF876D1.8080802@pico-systems.com> > Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 22:35:02 +0100 > From: Mark Wickens > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 > Message-ID: <4FF75A06.4000006 at wickensonline.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > In the ; > > > Ken Olsen Thank You Employees > > > video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related > I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - > the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > > Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. > Can anyone provide any more information please? > OK, that is almost certainly a Burroughs plasma panel, the orange color is a giveaway, also the date. The technology was partly pioneered by William Papian, who worked with Jay Forrester on coincident current core memory and then worked on gas display panels at Washington University in the 60's and 70's. One of the really unknown pioneers of the early computer days. As for a manufactured product from DEC, I don't recall such a model. Jon From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 7 13:39:29 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:39:29 -0600 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4FF75A06.4000006 at wickensonline.co.uk>, Mark Wickens writes: > Can anyone provide any more information please? , perhaps? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 14:30:20 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 07:30:20 +1200 Subject: Known failure modes for the DEC H7441 Power Supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am continuing to make progress with the power supply modules for the PDP 11/04. The previous week involved testing and replacing a few of the electrolytic caps... a few pictures and some comment (although no great technical insights) at http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog. Today I got a chance to test the modules. One of the H7441 +5V supplies works fine (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_2.jpg) ... the output is a little high at 5.5v but that could be my meter calibration. I haven't played with the adjustment pot yet until I can confirm that my meter is reading correctly. The other +5V supply doesn't run ( http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_1.jpg)... goes up to just over 1v as the AC comes up and then settles back to 0.5v. The DC voltage after the rectifier and across the main input capacitor looks OK on the meter. I have the PDP11/34 technical drawings with the schematic for the H7441 so will work though it but to get a head start, are there any common failure modes for these supplies that I should check first? The H745 -15V (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_-15V.jpg) supply works fine although the Power OK bulb on the back has failed. I will replace it with an LED + resistor like the H7441. And assuming I sort out the last H7441 are then any recommendations on powering up the backplane? It has the following boards installed plus grant continuity cards as appropriate: M7257 RK05 M7256 RK05 M7255 RK05 M7254 RK05 M7258 Printer M7856 RS232/SLU M7860 General Device Interface M7856 RS232/SLU M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board M9202 Unibus Connector I assume it is good practice to draw a map of all the board locations, then remove them all, power up the backplane and check the power... but what is the next step. My guess is that a minimum set of boards would be the following: M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board Any suggestions? Regards Andrew From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jul 7 15:30:39 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:30:39 -0400 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF87EDC.50201@brouhaha.com> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> <4FF87EDC.50201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF89C6F.1010306@verizon.net> On 07/07/2012 02:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks >> like EL to me > > My recollection was that DEC used a plasma panel, but I could be > wrong. I agree that the color in the photo is consistent with EL. > > there were two different panels. A yellow EL panel that was a CSS product and not sold much and a Neon orange also pretty rare that was a plasma type and was 1024 by 1024. I know the latter as I had one for a while to test and report on (I was a Digit in central engineering). Memory says the plasma was about $5K (1987 USD) for it, it could be hung off a VT241. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 7 15:35:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:35:20 -0400 Subject: DEC VRE01, was Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF89D88.5050204@neurotica.com> On 07/07/2012 12:50 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >>> I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg >>> - the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. >>> >>> Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >>> Can anyone provide any more information please? >> >> I don't know the DEC model number, but it used a plasma panel made by >> Planar Systems. My recollection was that the resolution was slightly >> more than 1024x768. > > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks > like EL to me > > (we used some Planar EL panels in the early 90s) This display is a DEC VRE01. Its resolution is the "standard DEC resolution" of 1024x864. It is a plasma display and has a BNC coaxial input that can be driven by a VCB01, VCB02 (as a grayscale device), or any of the DECstation/VAXstation frambuffers capable of generating 1024x864, and the VT1000/VT1200/etc X terminals. I have one of these that I purchased brand new from Eli Heffron's (now ELI Systems) in Massachusetts many years ago. I used it for a while on my VT1000 (before the it was destroyed by a lightning strike; the VRE01 survived) It is a good display with nice contrast and a very nice form factor. I still have it, and I am planning to use it on a VAXstation-II if I ever find a BA123 power supply. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 18:35:53 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 11:35:53 +1200 Subject: Known failure modes for the DEC H7441 Power Supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some good news after thinking about this overnight. I took a small 25VAC plugpack out of the junk box to make comparative testing of the two 7441 supplies easier. When I tested the known working 7441 it worked fine with the plugpack. When I tested the "faulty" 7441 it also worked fine. Reconnecting the faulty 7441 to the main transformer and bringing the voltage up with the variac and it didn't work. The problem is the rate of voltage increase. If I bring up the variac output slowly (say 0-240v over 5 seconds) then the 7441 will hang with the output under 1 volt. If I increase the voltage quickly (within 1-2 seconds) then it powers up fine and shows a good 5v on the output. The one known difference between the two 7441's is the faulty one has the original input cap which tested out OK. I could replace this if anyone thinks it is important. Otherwise I think it is time to put the regulators back in the chassis and try powering up the back plane. On Jul 8, 2012 7:30 AM, "Andrew Quinn" wrote: > I am continuing to make progress with the power supply modules for the PDP > 11/04. > > The previous week involved testing and replacing a few of the electrolytic > caps... a few pictures and some comment (although no great technical > insights) at http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog. > > Today I got a chance to test the modules. One of the H7441 +5V supplies > works fine (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_2.jpg) > ... the output is a little high at 5.5v but that could be my meter > calibration. I haven't played with the adjustment pot yet until I can > confirm that my meter is reading correctly. > > The other +5V supply doesn't run ( > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_1.jpg)... goes up > to just over 1v as the AC comes up and then settles back to 0.5v. > > The DC voltage after the rectifier and across the main input capacitor > looks OK on the meter. > > I have the PDP11/34 technical drawings with the schematic for the H7441 so > will work though it but to get a head start, are there any common failure > modes for these supplies that I should check first? > > The H745 -15V ( > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_-15V.jpg) supply > works fine although the Power OK bulb on the back has failed. I will > replace it with an LED + resistor like the H7441. > > And assuming I sort out the last H7441 are then any recommendations on > powering up the backplane? > > It has the following boards installed plus grant continuity cards as > appropriate: > > M7257 RK05 > M7256 RK05 > M7255 RK05 > M7254 RK05 > M7258 Printer > M7856 RS232/SLU > M7860 General Device Interface > M7856 RS232/SLU > M7847 Memory > M7847 Memory > M7859 Console Interface > M7263 Processor > M9301 Unibus Terminator > M7850 Parity Board > M9202 Unibus Connector > > I assume it is good practice to draw a map of all the board locations, > then remove them all, power up the backplane and check the power... but > what is the next step. > > My guess is that a minimum set of boards would be the following: > > M7847 Memory > M7847 Memory > M7859 Console Interface > M7263 Processor > M9301 Unibus Terminator > M7850 Parity Board > > Any suggestions? > > Regards > > Andrew > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 10:00:12 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:00:12 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 progress... Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm making some good progress with the Philips P800 minicomputers. I'm anxious to get an operating system running on them, and lack of working disk drives (I haven't been able to get one of the X1215 cartridge disc drives going yet), has pushed me in a somewhat different direction. I found an image of an X1215 disk pack containing a DOS version 5 installation on Theo Engel's website. I have implemented a very basic X1215 emulator in an FPGA PCIe card. Together with a small piece of software, and a cable with the necessary level converters, the emulator presents the X1215 disk images to the disk controller in the P800. The software is responsible for loading the image into the FPGA's memory buffer one track at a time. This now works to the point where the initial part of the IPL works correctly. Four sectors are read from disk, after which the P800 displays a "MONITOR?" prompt. After typing "DOM", there is another flurry of disk activity, then nothing. No "** DOS 05 **" banner. I noticed that the disk emulator never asks for anything other than track 0, so there is probably an error in the implementation of the SEEK command. To be continued... From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 8 13:13:56 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 13:13:56 -0500 Subject: DEC Flat Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF9CDE4.10802@pico-systems.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 11:24:28 -0700 From: Eric Smith To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 Message-ID: <4FF87EDC.50201 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks > > like EL to me > > My recollection was that DEC used a plasma panel, but I could be wrong. > I agree that the color in the photo is consistent with EL. Wow, you could be right, I'd completely forgotten about Planar! Jon From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 8 15:55:30 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 16:55:30 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >>On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > > >>Hi all, >> >>I would just like to inform you guys, if you haven't read or heard >>about it, is that my entry being running an actual MicroPDP-11/83 >>online 24/7 with 2.11BSD on the internet, is now up. Sure, there are >>still some minor things to sort out (like the order of name resolving >>in libc apparently :)) and probably some other stuff, but I already >>have 30 registered users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool >>Zork :) >>If you want to join in on the fun; http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/retro2012.html >> >> > >Hey, cool. Thanks for that. > >I wonder... I have a couple of long-term "projects" that might count... > > Would anyone be interested in a variant of KED which manages lines different from 24 and columns different from 80 / 132? It probably will not be ready before the end of July. For those of you who are not familiar, KED runs under RT-11 and RSTS/E and is a screen editor. I thought it would be great to have a variant of KED which handles the DEC standard widths of 80 /132 columns, but with up to 48 lines which are available on a VT420. Actually, I guess there was a bit of cheating since up to 60 lines are supported - which is what Ersatz-11 supports. I realized only recently that "terminals" which run with widths that are NOT 80 /132 characters might even be available for testing. This is a plug for Ersatz-11 which already supports terminals of any width up to 255 columns and vertical lines counts up to 60 lines. Because I have been so DECified, column widths other than 80 / 132 seemed - well almost beyond thinking about. Now that I have run a few tests with Ersatz-11, this is a challenge worth some effort. Jerome Fine From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 16:00:12 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:00:12 -0400 Subject: Lisa Experts: Lisa 1.8A power supply test? Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a quick (safe) way to test a Lisa 1.8 amp power supply outside of the Lisa chassis? It appears that something (maybe pin X) needs to be jumped to make some of the power supply function outside of the Lisa? The only pin I currently get a reading from is pin 20 (~5.62v) which appears correct. I'd like to test more of the supply, if possible, prior to powering up the Lisa. Pointers appreciated. http://imgur.com/idthc http://imgur.com/PcFF6 Thanks, Win From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 16:10:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 14:10:30 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > ...and probably some other stuff, but I already have 30 registered > users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool Zork :) You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jul 8 17:00:47 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 00:00:47 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120709000047.42e0cff3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a > DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter http://www.kbdbabel.org/ has several converters for different keyboards. LKx01 to PS/2 and vice versa is here: http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-ps2-dec/ http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 18:35:02 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 18:35:02 -0500 Subject: HP1630D, IBM "M" keyboards, PRO 350 or 380 Message-ID: My sons are helping me clean out one of my 25 foot storage lockers. I knew there was a little computer in this one, but it looks like about 1/3 computer items. Today I found two HP1630D logic analyzers, one of which has 7 pods. 4 IBM "M" keyboards, maybe 5 or 6 caps missing. PRO 350 or 380 missing cover, has RX50. I'll try to look at it tomorrow. I do have other 350 and 380 units and parts. Feel free to contact me off list if you have any interest. Thanks, Paul From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Jul 8 20:11:09 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 01:11:09 +0000 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B692EF@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 2:11 PM > On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche > wrote: >> ...and probably some other stuff, but I already have 30 registered >> users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool Zork :) > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" You're also not really old school unless the ZORK you're running requires an MDL interpreter. Rich Alderson, Sr. Curator Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 05:52:43 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:52:43 +0200 Subject: Lisa Experts: Lisa 1.8A power supply test? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301cd5dc0$f859a160$e90ce420$@gmail.com> Hi Win, The "power on" signal (X) is driven by a 7417 (open collector buffer), with a pull-up resistor. The 7417 in turn is driven by the COPS 421 microcontroller (which implements the soft power switch among other functions). I'm not sure whether "power" on is presented by a logic "1" or "0", but you should be able to turn the power supply on by connecting that signal either to ground or to the +5V standby power. Neither should harm the power supply. Camiel. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Win Heagy Sent: zondag 8 juli 2012 23:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Lisa Experts: Lisa 1.8A power supply test? Can anyone recommend a quick (safe) way to test a Lisa 1.8 amp power supply outside of the Lisa chassis? It appears that something (maybe pin X) needs to be jumped to make some of the power supply function outside of the Lisa? The only pin I currently get a reading from is pin 20 (~5.62v) which appears correct. I'd like to test more of the supply, if possible, prior to powering up the Lisa. Pointers appreciated. http://imgur.com/idthc http://imgur.com/PcFF6 Thanks, Win From reiche at ls-al.eu Mon Jul 9 08:29:21 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:29:21 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki Message-ID: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> Hi all, I responded to a post on the SimH mailinglist, asking about why there was no PDP-11 Wiki where bits and pieces or whole articles and papers could be found, concerning the PDP-11. I thought it was a good question, considering I love the Richard's Terminal Wiki out there. So I quickly installed one and it is in pristine vanilla state at the moment. I can't be bothered with filling it with actual content, as I am still a total and complete noob on PDP-11's but will contribute whenever and where-ever I can. My job will be moderating the stuff for the time being. Have at it people! http://pdp-11.ls-al.eu re, Sander From reiche at ls-al.eu Mon Jul 9 08:51:09 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:51:09 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> References: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <201207091351.q69Dp9Hx031514@ls-al.eu> Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I responded to a post on the SimH mailinglist, asking about why > there was no PDP-11 Wiki where bits and pieces or whole articles > and papers could be found, concerning the PDP-11. > > I thought it was a good question, considering I love the Richard's > Terminal Wiki out there. > > So I quickly installed one and it is in pristine vanilla state at > the moment. I can't be bothered with filling it with actual content, > as I am still a total and complete noob on PDP-11's but will > contribute whenever and where-ever I can. > > My job will be moderating the stuff for the time being. > > Have at it people! > > http://pdp-11.ls-al.eu > Seems I was too quick to rush to the conclusion that something like this wasn't already setup somewhere. Mark Benson's http://wiki.dectec.info seems to be the legitimate PDP-11 Wiki! :) re, Sander From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 09:31:25 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 15:31:25 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <201207091351.q69Dp9Hx031514@ls-al.eu> References: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> <201207091351.q69Dp9Hx031514@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <6527724523490428800@unknownmsgid> On 9 Jul 2012, at 14:55, Sander Reiche wrote: > Sander Reiche wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I responded to a post on the SimH mailinglist, asking about why >> there was no PDP-11 Wiki where bits and pieces or whole articles >> and papers could be found, concerning the PDP-11. >> >> I thought it was a good question, considering I love the Richard's >> Terminal Wiki out there. >> >> So I quickly installed one and it is in pristine vanilla state at >> the moment. I can't be bothered with filling it with actual content, >> as I am still a total and complete noob on PDP-11's but will >> contribute whenever and where-ever I can. >> >> My job will be moderating the stuff for the time being. >> >> Have at it people! >> >> http://pdp-11.ls-al.eu >> > > Seems I was too quick to rush to the conclusion that something like > this wasn't already setup somewhere. Mark Benson's http://wiki.dectec.info > seems to be the legitimate PDP-11 Wiki! :) Jeesh I wouldn't say 'legitimate', it's thus far empty! I am very keen to centralise all the information about DEC hardware in one place though, hence why I set it up. I hadn't got around to publicising it uet as I didn't want to get everyone's attention with what's basically an empty shell. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:16:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:16:29 -0500 Subject: HP1630D, IBM "M" keyboards, PRO 350 or 380 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry Everyone, Located in Illinois, 61853 Paul On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 6:35 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > My sons are helping me clean out one of my 25 foot storage lockers. I > knew there was a little computer in this one, but it looks like about > 1/3 computer items. > > Today I found two HP1630D logic analyzers, one of which has 7 pods. > > 4 IBM "M" keyboards, maybe 5 or 6 caps missing. > > PRO 350 or 380 missing cover, has RX50. I'll try to look at it > tomorrow. I do have other 350 and 380 units and parts. > > Feel free to contact me off list if you have any interest. > > Thanks, Paul From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 9 12:27:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:27:57 -0600 Subject: WTB DECserver telnet Terminal Server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mark Benson writes: > As the subject suggests, I am looking for DECserver to go with a VT510 that > will allow me to telnet to hosts without a full 'middle-computer'. If > available also some ports to hang serial connections (MJ11 or d-series) to > would be great too. Pretty much any terminal server should be able to do this. Does it have to be a DECserver? You can get used terminal servers on ebay for cheap. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:29:04 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:29:04 -0500 Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) In-Reply-To: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> References: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> Message-ID: The PCRII takes commands over an IEEE-488 bus. Its a vector graphics display, not NTSC. The shutter stays open during the write time, the filter wheel rotates to paint each RGB frame. The recording time can be several minutes, depending on the speed of the host computer. I think there were some primitives, like paint polygon, so it did not need the host to send the whole scan for the shape, just the vector outline and the PCR would do the fill. Think along the lines (pun intended) of gerber format for PCBs, and photoploters. Similar idea. > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:51:43 +0200 > From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de > Subject: Re: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > (...) it displys TV-rate video on an > > > > internal CRT and photographs it. > > > > > > > > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna > > > > print a colour inamge in 3 goes. > > > > > > (...) > > > > AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate > > video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. (...) there's a disk > > with 4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to > > move them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's > > microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t > > rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. > > So it must takes RGB component input (no decoder) and you have to feed it a "freeze frame" video signal, i.e. keep the image content static (no framestore) until the three exposures have been completed? > > > (...) As I mentioned, the optics is a standard, and not very > > good (Soligor, I think) enlarger lese. It's essentially fixed focus > > (well evetyhing is at a fixed distance, so that's OK), it's fitted to a > > meatl tuve which slites into the camera body and is lcoked by a > > setscrew. Presumably you can focus it if necessary when you repari the > > unit. > > > > I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' > > meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of > > the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid > > camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive (...) > > OK, so making a camera adapter in a "normal" workshop is confirmed to be possible. Apart from interfacing the signals, it looks as if the most complicated part of it was somehow joining the camera body, the lens and the distance tube in a mechanically solid and light-tight fashion without messing up the distances between the components as you go. > > > Err, yes... I think if I was going to make this, I would start wit ha > > dead electronic SLR, though. On the grounds it has interchagealbe lenses, > > a motor to wind the film and solenoids to open/close the shutter. Then > > remove the dead electroncis and make my own cotnrolelr. Whether I'd leave > > the mirror in palce I don;t know, it might be easier to do so if the > > sugger mwchanism depends on it for the corraect sequece. > > Seems like a very sane approach. I'll have to see what I can come up with, as I know for sure I don't have a broken SLR in my junk box... > > > Well, an enlarger lens is typically used to enlarge :-). What I mean is > > that the distance from the front to whatever (paper in an enalrger) is > > longer than the distance from the back to whatver (negative in an > > enlrager). So if you put the CRT where the paper would be and the film > > (in the cmaera body) where the negative should be, it'll work and > > produce a reduced image of the CRT on the film. > > > > That sounds like waht yuu want. > > Ahh, I see. I had something backwards but now I can't see what it was... > > Thank you so far, > Arno. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jul 9 13:51:16 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:51:16 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <6527724523490428800@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: > Jeesh I wouldn't say 'legitimate', it's thus far empty! I am > very keen to centralise all the information about DEC > hardware in one place though, hence why I set it up. > > I hadn't got around to publicising it uet as I didn't want to > get everyone's attention with what's basically an empty shell. I do have a bunch of data lying around that could be turned into wiki text in tabular form (with some scripting). So if you have a format you'd like, I could see if I can knock some thing up and then your wiki (or wikis, I don't mind :-)) would be empty no more. (I'm sure I used to have something for PDP-8 and terminals too, but, unless it's all in my imagination, it's not in the place I'd expect it to be). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 9 14:15:24 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 12:15:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > So if you have a format you'd like how about an ASCII TEXT FILE you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming pile of php for the past 50 years. From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon Jul 9 15:10:47 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 21:10:47 +0100 Subject: Odd-sized computer cards Message-ID: <01E0B03864C04DD0BE663BC7223785C8@vostro> Do any of you guys have 96-column, 40-column and other non-80-column cards? For my collection of data storage media. Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 15:22:14 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 21:22:14 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9 Jul 2012, at 20:15, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >> So if you have a format you'd like > > how about an ASCII TEXT FILE Yes, an ACSIII file wouldn't be a bad idea. > you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming > pile of php for the past 50 years. Now, Al, you leave my steaming piles of PHP alone :P I only feel that something database-oriented is better for search-ability and indexing purposes. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 9 15:39:34 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 22:39:34 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: <20120709000047.42e0cff3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120709223934.a0115146.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:43:36 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not > the reverse. As I wrote: LKx01 to PS/2 and _vice_versa_. The two linked kbdbabels allow the connection of a LKx01 to a PeeCee and the other turns PS/2 keyboard into a LKx01. > Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, > that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 > keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. There are a lot of people that want to use their beloved, old keyboard with "strange" interface on a PeeCee. Especially if they use the PeeCee to emulate som old hardware. Converters from PS/2 keyboard to classic computer are also provided by kbdbabel. E.g. I have one that turns a PS/2 keyboard into a Sun Type 4 keyboard. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 16:19:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 14:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kildall's In-Reply-To: References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> I'm in Pacific Grove (Asilomar) at an unrelated conference. On a whim, I told the dash demon to take me to 801 Lighthouse - less than a mile away. The current owner gave me a short tour! I also snapped a couple of pictures of 716 and 734. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 16:51:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 14:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kildall's In-Reply-To: <4FFB4CAB.709@neurotica.com> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> <4FFB4CAB.709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120709143539.L80838@shell.lmi.net> > On 07/09/2012 05:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm in Pacific Grove (Asilomar) at an unrelated conference. On a whim, I > > told the dash demon to take me to 801 Lighthouse - less than a mile away. > > The current owner gave me a short tour! On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I also snapped a couple of pictures of 716 and 734. > PICS!! I'm using a hotel lobby ("business center") computer (the "wifi in every room" is too weak for anybody to connect). I might try with this machine tonight. Otherwise it'll be a few days. No quality pictures; just rough snapshots, and no interior pictures (that would have pushed the limits on the owner's hospitality - he had not been expecting visitors). He was painting a chair in the yard when I walked up. I asked him if he would mind if I took a few snapshots of the outside of his house, and he was way more than obliging. I explained that I was NOT a professional historian, just a librarian who had a nostalgic curiousity. (OK, OK, "old fart" would have been more accurate) He bought the house on a short-sale ($850K), with no idea that it had a history. Since then, he has heard a fair amount about it. Within hours after his bid was accepted, other bids WAY higher started to come in! He is not "restoring" the house, but he is making repairs, and not changing it. Some time, if you want to organize a serious documentary set of photographs of, and in, the house, I think that he might be amenable! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From md.benson at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 06:04:46 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 12:04:46 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 4100 Message-ID: <58EB4FCA-2126-46AA-929D-D6389C1021B3@gmail.com> Not sure if this is 'classic' enough but I figured there are a few people here who might know the system much better than me. I have a AlphaServer 4100 that reached me in slightly rough but internally clean looking condition, it's not been run in a few years. First time I powered it up it it seemed to run through the diagnostics fine on the LCD panel at the front and finished up sat at what I assume was the text that has been programmed into the panel from the SRM (it looked like a hostname or something similar). I didn't have a terminal on the machine at the time so the panel was all I had to go on. I had to leave it for a while so I switched it of and switched off the mains. The next time I fired it up it got some way through the diagnostics and stopped on a message related to testing CPU 3 (the last of 4 numbered 0-3) and seemed to stop. I left it while I grabbed a terminal figuring it needed diagnosing via the terminal read-out. I powered it down, attached the terminal and powered it up and... nothing. The LCD screen sits completely blank, the terminal doesn't display anything apart from dumping a few characters of junk when I power it off. I have tried the following: - Removed all PCI cards. - Reseated all the cabling to the PCI backplane and comm's (serial/parallel) board including the LCD display connector. - Reseated all the RAM and CPU boards - Removed all but 1 CPU and 2 RAM boards (in slots ME0L and MEM0H) - Added a second CPU in case it - Checked the control panel cabling to the LCD panel - swapped the installed CPUs around to test at least 3 in 1 and 2 CPU configs When powered on, the diagnostic LEDs on the power management board look like this (top to bottom) 0 = on - = off * = scan at 1 sec intervals 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 * * * * All CPU cards have the following LEDs displayed 0 - 0 0 As far as I can see 2 LEDs are lit on the PCI bridge card (in the main) chassis (DEC's design failure means you can't actually see these directly) 0 0 I have followed through as best I can the diagnostic procedures in the User's Manual and Service Manual and neither have yielded progress or any obvious sign of fault, aside from the fact that I can't *find* the LEDs that are supposed to indicate 'POWER_FAN_OK' and 'TEMP_OK' on the PCI bridge adapter. If they are there they aren't on but I've no idea a WHERE they are. All three main fans are operating and seem to be shifting plenty of air, as are the CPU fans on the installed CPU cards. Other things that should be mentioned are the PSUs emit a constant 'bubbling' humming noise, but the power management board seems to thing they are fine, I'm a bit skeptical. I also had one PSU blow an input filter cap inside the mains input socket which was a straightforward fix and was replaced. Basically, I don't know the machine well enough to know what it might be. Any help appreciated. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jul 9 16:06:35 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 22:06:35 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 09 July 2012 20:15 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11 Wiki > > > On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > So if you have a format you'd like > > how about an ASCII TEXT FILE > > you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a > steaming pile of php for the past 50 years. It *is* a text file: a bunch of entries that look something like this: start-system ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] end-system AS1000-4-233 But that's not going to look too nice in a wiki, so I presumed that it would need to be massaged (by script) into some other text format (media wiki) , in which case it should probably match the look and feel of the other pages. Since there are (almost) no other pages I didn't want to end up defining the look of the page by fiat. Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 9 16:51:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:51:54 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4FFB2DCC.8090407 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > So if you have a format you'd like > > how about an ASCII TEXT FILE > > you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming pile > of php for the past 50 years. PHP is just another text file. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 9 16:53:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:53:54 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , writes: > It *is* a text file: a bunch of entries that look something like this: > > start-system ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 > announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] > bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] > bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] > bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] > cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] > max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] > mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] > num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] > os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] > specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] > specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] > sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] > tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] > end-system AS1000-4-233 I would turn that into a mediawiki template invocation, something like: {{system | name = ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 | announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] | bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] | bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] | bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] | cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] | max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] | mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] | num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] | os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] | specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] | specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] | sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] | tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] }} ...and then let the template do all the formatting. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Jul 5 14:06:13 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:06:13 -0300 Subject: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) In-Reply-To: <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley > SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. That is very interesting! I am rather familiar with the history of Smalltalk and was not aware of any connection between Apple the Berkeley. I had read that the Berkeley students had been given a copy of the HP Smalltalk to study and then developed their own version for the VAX and, later, for Sun workstations. Note that the language name has a lower case "t". For most languages this kind of thing can be debated, but while "Smalltalk size" is a valid expression telling you the number of global variables defined (2151 where I am typing this), "SmallTalk size" will get you an "Unknown variable" error. -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Jul 5 17:31:11 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:31:11 -0300 Subject: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) In-Reply-To: <20120705132617.F34140@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> <20120705132617.F34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201207052231.q65MVPHv043128@billy.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. > My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", > while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in > Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the > double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put > thumbprints on the media)). Thanks for the tip! I will make sure to ask him about this on the next opportunity I have (probably not this year, unfortunately). He wanted to hire me to work on his Klein project back in 2000, but the end of the dot com bubble hit Sun very hard so it didn't happen. I see that, besides many other things, I missed some very interesting stories :-) -- Jecel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jul 5 20:05:23 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 21:05:23 -0400 Subject: Apple's Smalltalk-80 on Mac - Re: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/07/12 3:06 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley >> SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. > > That is very interesting! I am rather familiar with the history of > Smalltalk and was not aware of any connection between Apple the > Berkeley. I had read that the Berkeley students had been given a copy of > the HP Smalltalk to study and then developed their own version for the > VAX and, later, for Sun workstations. Jecel, Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, from when I met him at the Apple Developer Conference where HyperCard (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. --Toby > > Note that the language name has a lower case "t". For most languages > this kind of thing can be debated, but while "Smalltalk size" is a valid > expression telling you the number of global variables defined (2151 > where I am typing this), "SmallTalk size" will get you an "Unknown > variable" error. > > -- Jecel > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jul 5 22:03:39 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 22:03:39 -0500 Subject: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF6558B.6030506@pico-systems.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:31:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) Message-ID: <20120705132617.F34140 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put thumbprints on the media)). HAH! Small World! Long ago, Dave was a good friend of mine at Washington University, haven't seen him in a few years. I used to go out to Berkeley on experiments, and dropped in for a chat several times while he was at Sun in Mountain View. One time Dave took me down the hall and introduced me to John Ousterholt. I didn't really know who he was at the time, but I do now. Of course, everything they did there was WAY ahead of its time. Jon From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Jul 6 19:32:35 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 21:32:35 -0300 Subject: Apple's Smalltalk-80 on Mac - Re: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201207070032.q670Wl64075342@billy.ezwind.net> Toby Thain wrote: > Jecel, > > Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a > mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one > time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, > from when I met him at the Apple Developer Conference where HyperCard > (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. I have the 400KB floppy disks of version 0.7 of that system. It actually has two different images: "Level 0" is a single file and could run on a Fat Mac while "Level 1" was split into several files which would have to be joined on a Lisa hard drive and needed more than 512KB to run. At one point Dan Ingalls needed a copy of this (though he had created it originally, he had lost his copies) and I tried to go from 400KB MFS disks to 1.4MB HFS disks (on a Macintosh Classic II) to 1.4MB FAT16 disks (on a Macintosh Performa 5215CD - don't ask me why that machine refuses to read old Mac floppies or why the Classic II can't itself understand FAT16 floppies) and then combine the files using a Mac friendly format, like StuffIt. Somewhere along that path some bits got damages (actually, the Level 0 floppy has bad blocks so I had only tried the other 6 disks). Someone else had a copy and a simpler way to send it, do Dan was able to add it to his "Smalltalk Zoo". Lots of technical details about this system are available in the "green book" ("Smalltalk-80, Bits of History, Words of Advice" edited by Glen Krasner), which like many other classic Smalltalk books can be found for free at http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html -- Jecel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 6 20:16:54 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:16:54 -0400 Subject: Apple's Smalltalk-80 on Mac - Re: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: <20120707010305.1AC451A4942@vps4.telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> <20120707010305.1AC451A4942@vps4.telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FF78E06.4010105@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/07/12 8:32 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: >> Jecel, >> >> Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a >> mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one >> time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, >> from when I met him at the Apple Developer Conference where HyperCard >> (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. > > I have the 400KB floppy disks of version 0.7 of that system. ... I think I have the floppies somewhere too :) > > Lots of technical details about this system are available in the "green > book" ("Smalltalk-80, Bits of History, Words of Advice" Yes I owned that book, and "The Language and its Implementation". I used the Apple system for a while. --Toby > edited by Glen > Krasner), which like many other classic Smalltalk books can be found for > free at > > http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html > > -- Jecel > > From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 01:23:46 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 07:23:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 Jul 2012, at 22:53, Richard wrote: > I would turn that into a mediawiki template invocation, something > like: > > {{system > | name = ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 > | announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] > | bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] > | bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] > | bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] > | cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] > | max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] > | mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] > | num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] > | os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] > | specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] > | specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] > | sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] > | tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] > }} > > ...and then let the template do all the formatting. Yup I can do a template to fit that as long as I have a comprehensive list of every field that the filed uses throughout the entries. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 01:38:55 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:38:55 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 Message-ID: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter Card for an QBUS 11? I've found a pdf for an AA11-K card which should be connected to such a display but this is a unibus card it seems.. I only have QBUS-gear. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 01:50:58 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 07:50:58 +0100 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter I have a physical instruction/service manual for a version of it 611 MOD162C storage display unit not scanned yet http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=611+MOD162C+storage+display+unit Dave Caroline From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jul 10 03:20:07 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:20:07 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Benson > Sent: 10 July 2012 07:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11 Wiki > > > > On 9 Jul 2012, at 22:53, Richard wrote: > > > I would turn that into a mediawiki template invocation, something > > like: > > > > {{system > > | name = ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 > > | announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] > > | bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] > > | bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] > > | bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] > > | cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] > > | max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] > > | mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] > > | num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] > > | os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] > > | specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] > > | specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] > > | sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] > > | tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] > > }} > > > > ...and then let the template do all the formatting. > > Yup I can do a template to fit that as long as I have a > comprehensive list of every field that the filed uses > throughout the entries. I can no doubt find some simple way of coming up with all the fields. I gathered this stuff over a number of years. As it's a bunch of mildly formatted text files, it's not terribly consistent. Plus many fields for (say) VAX are not applicable to (say) disks. My 20s spent looking at media wiki templates suggests that you feed each template a bunch of parameters, the same set everywhere a template is used. How does that work if you want people to come along and edit an entry later? For example, if you have data for 20 or so different VAX systems and only then realise that you've completely forgotten about the "Compatibility mode" property. You can add it to the template, but do you need to go back and change every template invocation to add the new parameter? I should point out that the [CU-V6-5A] part is a "reference" field. That one happens to be "Customer Update. Volume 6 Issue 5A. 1st May 1995". When I turned some of this into webpages then that ended up as "[1]", "[2]" etc. and the references were spelled out at the foot of the page. You might want to make provision for that so that future page editors have some guidelines to follow. Anyway, it's currently text and I can turn it into whatever text you think is suitable. Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 09:33:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:33:41 -0600 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: In article <20120710063855.GB71546 at beast.freibergnet.de>, Holm Tiffe writes: > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > documentaion available somewhere? Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. You can get it here (warning, not a permanent URL) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 09:43:25 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:43:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , writes: > I can no doubt find some simple way of coming up with all the fields. A simple awk script should be able to it. (Or pick your poison if you don't like awk.) > I gathered this stuff over a number of years. As it's a bunch of mildly > formatted text files, it's not terribly consistent. Plus many fields for > (say) VAX are not applicable to (say) disks. There are a number of ways you can handle that in mediawiki. You can create specialized templates for VAX (my preference), or you can add conditional logic in the template "if this field present, then these other fields are relevant". > My 20s spent looking at > media wiki templates suggests that you feed each template a bunch of > parameters, the same set everywhere a template is used. How does that > work if you want people to come along and edit an entry later? The template only handles formatting, not content. The content is the set of supplied arguments to the template. For instance, on the terminals wiki, I have templates that create the summary infobox on the right hand side for each terminal. When you edit the page, you see the template call in the page with all the arguments that define the content. If you want to edit the presentation of the content, you edit the definition of the template itself. For fancy things like infoboxes, there is a small amount of CSS you also have to edit in wikimedia. > For > example, if you have data for 20 or so different VAX systems and only > then realise that you've completely forgotten about the "Compatibility > mode" property. You can add it to the template, but do you need to go > back and change every template invocation to add the new parameter? There are two ways of handling this. One is to supply a reasonable default (usually empty) for the template parameter in the definition of the template. You only create presentation for parameters that are non-empty when the template is called. Old calls to the template that don't supply this new parameter render the same. New content appears for any calls to the template that supply the new parameter. If you've decided that the new parameter must be supplied, and there is no reasonable default, then you do a search for all the existing uses of the template and add the parameter first. (Unused parameters are ignored when the template is processed.) Then you add the presentation for the new parameter in the template. The new content will just show up for the existing calls to the template. You can go further and add error handling to the template to call out missing required arguments. I do this for the terminals wiki infobox -- if required parameters are missing, or have the wrong values, then the entire infobox is omitted and you just get a big red error message on the page. It's pretty obvious when the template isn't used correctly that way. > I should point out that the [CU-V6-5A] part is a "reference" field. That > one happens to be "Customer Update. Volume 6 Issue 5A. 1st May 1995". > When I turned some of this into webpages then that ended up as "[1]", > "[2]" etc. and the references were spelled out at the foot of the page. > You might want to make provision for that so that future page editors > have some guidelines to follow. I believe this references mechanism can also be handled in mediawiki markup. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From abs at absd.org Tue Jul 10 09:51:34 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:51:34 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if you want to pull in anything from the VAX Hardware reference page at http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/full.html Its source data is also in a simple text format :) http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/vax-data From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 10:18:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:18:04 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Richard wrote: > > In article <20120710063855.GB71546 at beast.freibergnet.de>, > Holm Tiffe writes: > > > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > > documentaion available somewhere? > > Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned > this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. You can get it > here (warning, not a permanent URL) > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) Great! I'm downloading it currently.. Thanks, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 10:24:33 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:24:33 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 Message-ID: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that must be related to the BNC network. The Chip is located next to the 20MHz Crystalnext to the poushbutton Switch, it is broken in two halves and the ceramic top plate of the chip is missing. It seems that the pcb survivied, so here comes the question: What was this for an (Network-)chip? Can please someone help? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 10:46:58 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:46:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 8:18 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned >> this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. Just took care of it. I have a Terak 8010B and a Tek 8562 running now, and have been busy working on recovering bits. Expect Tnix 2.1 bits to be uploaded soon. The drive in the 8562 is a Micropolis 1304 on a Xebec 1401 (SASI) so there is some chance of getting a replacement some day. Both drives in the units have sticky head actuators. The usual opening of the HDA and fiddling with the actuator were required to get one of the two going, and that one had the native programming and x86 tools packages on it. I'm looking for a copy of a bootable Terak double density RT11 disk image, and a parallel keyboard for the 8010C that I have. All of the RT images I have try booting from the non-existant SD controller. UCSD Pascal II.0 can apparently deal with either kind. The docs on John Foust's site also say it should work with the high resolution display in the 8010C. It did seem to boot with one, but I have to puzzle out the pinouts of the 15 pin monitor connector on the 8010C. Actually, I need to do that for all of the connectors since there only seems to be documentation around for the pinouts of the 8010A. Oddly, the documentation for the variable density conversion kit claims that the conversion floppy is bootable, but it doesn't appear to be. I haven't tried manually putting the DDens bootstrap and monitor onto a floppy disk image yet, still have to figure out how the DDens floppies are laid out (they use IBM MFM encoding, so they're incompatible with RX02's). I tried the 11/73 out of the 8562 and it fails to boot II.0 (11/02 and 23 boards work). From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 10 11:34:42 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:34:42 -0400 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC59A2.5000000@atarimuseum.com> Take a photo, post it up on flicker or something and send a link to the group, makes it easier to indentify Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > > a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > must be related to the BNC network. The Chip is located next to the 20MHz > Crystalnext to the poushbutton Switch, it is broken in two halves and the > ceramic top plate of the chip is missing. It seems that the pcb survivied, > so here comes the question: > What was this for an (Network-)chip? Can please someone help? > > Kind Regards, > > Holm > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 11:57:44 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:57:44 -0700 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 8:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > must be related to the BNC network. If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA The schematics of the 200 are at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 12:02:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:02:19 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <4FFC59A2.5000000@atarimuseum.com> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC59A2.5000000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20120710170219.GE22064@beast.freibergnet.de> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Take a photo, post it up on flicker or something and send a link to the > group, makes it easier to indentify No. I'm already taken the pictures with my cam, but finding the chip is really that easy.. one has just to look to the pcb. That's why i'm not uploaded the pictures to my website. Interstingly it seems that there is nowhere a picture from that PCB available on the WEB... BTW: why you are answering at top? I've found out in the meantime that the chip mut be an Am7991 or 7992 Chip, that also fits functionally and the 20Mhz Xtal is connected to the correct pins. I've just googles for the next bigger chip in this location, there is an SIEMENS SCOCO12, 21-21672-10 which seems to be the network controller, maybe something comaptible to the AMD LANCE AM7990? I've found a hit on a DELQA Engeneering manual and in this manual finally the Part ... Interestingly I found a Datasheet for the Am7991A/Am7992A which makes no difference between the two chips. Why the heck are there two Part numbers? I've found in my boxes an old Chipset resqued from an old PC adapter, it contains a Am7992. I'll solder in a socket and will try... Could please someone look at the PCB and find out which chip is soldered in? They are at least pin comatible.. Regards, Holm > > > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Hi, > > > >a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > >dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > >must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > >must be related to the BNC network. The Chip is located next to the 20MHz > >Crystalnext to the poushbutton Switch, it is broken in two halves and the > >ceramic top plate of the chip is missing. It seems that the pcb survivied, > >so here comes the question: > >What was this for an (Network-)chip? Can please someone help? > > > >Kind Regards, > > > >Holm > > > > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 12:03:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:03:49 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/10/12 8:18 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >>Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned > >>this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. > > Just took care of it. I have a Terak 8010B and a Tek 8562 running now, and > have > been busy working on recovering bits. Expect Tnix 2.1 bits to be uploaded > soon. > The drive in the 8562 is a Micropolis 1304 on a Xebec 1401 (SASI) so there > is > some chance of getting a replacement some day. Both drives in the units > have sticky > head actuators. The usual opening of the HDA and fiddling with the actuator > were > required to get one of the two going, and that one had the native > programming and > x86 tools packages on it. > > I'm looking for a copy of a bootable Terak double density RT11 disk image, > and > a parallel keyboard for the 8010C that I have. > > All of the RT images I have try booting from the non-existant SD controller. > UCSD Pascal II.0 can apparently deal with either kind. The docs on John > Foust's > site also say it should work with the high resolution display in the 8010C. > It > did seem to boot with one, but I have to puzzle out the pinouts of the 15 > pin > monitor connector on the 8010C. Actually, I need to do that for all of the > connectors > since there only seems to be documentation around for the pinouts of the > 8010A. > > Oddly, the documentation for the variable density conversion kit claims > that the > conversion floppy is bootable, but it doesn't appear to be. I haven't tried > manually > putting the DDens bootstrap and monitor onto a floppy disk image yet, still > have to > figure out how the DDens floppies are laid out (they use IBM MFM encoding, > so they're > incompatible with RX02's). > > I tried the 11/73 out of the 8562 and it fails to boot II.0 (11/02 and 23 > boards work). > Interresting Al, but what the heck has it todo with my Tek 611? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 10 12:13:26 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:13:26 -0700 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC62B6.9020303@jwsss.com> I had a Genisco (or Gen something) terminal (I think) which was a box of TTL electronics with one of these on top. I had two displays and one terminal box at one time, but have sold them. Genisco was a local Orange County, Ca. company that went belly up in the 80's I think, or at least quit making terminals. Someone may know, but I think they may have continued in the printer business. They were doing a system similar to the Tek storage terminals but w/o owning the storage tube part of the equation (buying Tek units instead). I think the display I had could print as well with one of the Tek storage printers, It will be interesting to download and read Richard's scan. Please follow up if you recall the correct info, it has been too long for me to remember the names for sure. Jim On 7/10/2012 8:18 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Tek 611 Storage display From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 12:15:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:15:55 -0700 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC634B.80800@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 10:03 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Interresting Al, but what the heck has it todo with my Tek 611? > It was an explaination of why it wasn't uploaded the 7992 has a more sophisticated passive R/C network on TSEL than the 7991. that has nothing to do with your Tek 611 either From asc135 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:48:38 2012 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:48:38 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) Message-ID: > > > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a > > > DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter > > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ has several converters for different > > keyboards. LKx01 to PS/2 and vice versa is here: > > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-ps2-dec/ > > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ > > At a quick glance, those keyboard converters seem to mostly be going the > wrong way for us. THey are to use strange keyboards on hosts with PS/2 > interfaces. So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not > the reverse. > > Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, > that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 > keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. > > -tony > My guess would be they're intended for people who want to emulate the classic system on a modern machine but utilize the original system's keyboard. It's not entirely unlike those PS/2 connector 3270 keyboards to use with IBM terminal emulators. Amardeep From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 14:15:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:15:41 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <4FFC634B.80800@bitsavers.org> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC634B.80800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120710191541.GA38544@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/10/12 10:03 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Interresting Al, but what the heck has it todo with my Tek 611? > > > > It was an explaination of why it wasn't uploaded Ahh, ok. > > the 7992 has a more sophisticated passive R/C network on TSEL than the > 7991. > > that has nothing to do with your Tek 611 either > Thats why I opened another Thread. Don't worry Al, Thanks to you. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 14:24:28 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:24:28 -0500 Subject: MS-02-AA, 54-24829-DA Message-ID: I found some of my missing memory sticks. MS02-AA $30 each, 4/$100 Used in 5000/xxx 54-24829-DA $40 each, 4/$140 64meg used in PW433A, and others Any qty within US $7 S/H, Ships from Illinois, 61853 Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 10 14:44:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 20:44:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Jul 10, 12 05:24:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that I've never worked on one of thsse, but I'll take a guess... Is there an AM7990 (40 pin DIL) on the board? If so, my first guess is that this is an AM7992. See if the pins match up. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 14:35:10 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:35:10 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/10/12 8:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > >must be related to the BNC network. > > If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA > > The schematics of the 200 are at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 After replacing the broken Chip trough the 7992 it seems to be working again: 21:33:05.025466 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:09.122821 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:21.595271 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:25.689338 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:29.785045 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:33.882401 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:38.070031 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:42.164092 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:46.259797 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. ...at least it tries to MOP... Thanks again, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 15:21:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:21:32 -0400 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> On 07/10/2012 03:35 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that >>> must be related to the BNC network. >> >> If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA >> >> The schematics of the 200 are at >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 > > After replacing the broken Chip trough the 7992 it seems to be working > again: Wow, nicely done...congrats on the fast repair and good score! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 10 14:42:43 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:42:43 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:38:55 +0200 Holm Tiffe wrote: > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter > Card for an QBUS 11? I have a: M7651 DRV11-WA Q 18/22-bit DMA general purpose parallel interface M7651 Refs: EK-DRVWA-UG, MP-01582, ZJ244-RZ, uNOTE N#041 Maybe you can use it to interface some generic DAC to it? As I still have to send some other stuff your way I could throw the DRV11 into the pile. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jul 10 15:17:15 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:17:15 -0500 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? Message-ID: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> I saved a couple DEC VT525 terminals a year ago or so from a barn and after cleaning them up, they seem to work mostly with the exception that the video they produce on a number of different VGA LCD panels is quite dim. Both terminals exhibit the same issue each on a number of different LCD panels-- so I'm a little hesitant to blame something wrong with the terminals and rather wonder about the VGA-ness of the signal they produce. I gather from the specs that it should be producing a 800x480 @ 73 Hz signal. My monitors claim to do that and don't complain in any way... other than that the video is pretty dim and washed out. Is there an existance proof of one of these working with a modern (3 or 4 yr old) VGA LCD panel or were they only successful with pre-LCD CRT monitors for some reason? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 15:18:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:18:35 -0400 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC8E1B.40808@neurotica.com> On 07/10/2012 10:33 AM, Richard wrote: > In article <20120710063855.GB71546 at beast.freibergnet.de>, > Holm Tiffe writes: > >> I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there >> documentaion available somewhere? > > Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned > this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. You can get it > here (warning, not a permanent URL) > I'll grab that too, as I have a 611 that's a basket case. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 15:22:50 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:22:50 -0700 Subject: A few 85xx uploads Message-ID: <4FFC8F1A.50907@bitsavers.org> under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix Changed 856x to 8560 and created 8550 and 8562 directories There is an untested DOS/50 boot disk image under 8550 It's probably OK. The files extracted correctly on the 8562 Under 8562: The boot block for the 8562 (which appears to be different from the one on the V2 update floppy from the 8560) and a small program to create an IMD file with a payload from stdin, so you can, for example, make a floppy with a tarball that can be read on /dev/rfd0 on the 8562. Curiously, Tek didn't include dd with Tnix, so I'm going to tar over the source and stock V7 dd binary to see if an unmodified binary will run, and if not, compile it over there. I'm a little nervous that the 8562 stanalone utilities disk may be needed to restore the disk instead of the one from the 8560, since the boot doesn't work quite the same way (the 8562 reads /boot from the disk, while the 8560 just loads 'tnix') From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 19:18:49 2012 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:18:49 -0700 Subject: Shameless Classic parts trafficking Redux Message-ID: More cleaning my shed in 100+ degree weather, more Stuff on Ebay. These auction will go on at 6:00pm Tuesday. 251104992004 MFE 2500 serial Cassette tape transport 251104949909 PDP-11/73 in a BA11S chassis 251104980598 and 251104984450 NOS DEC RK05 replacement drive belt As always, please mention your a list member for an extra goody or two. Tom P From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:35:10 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:35:10 -0700 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? In-Reply-To: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> References: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I wasn't too thrilled with the image quality of a VT525 on an LCD panel the last time I tried it. Bad enough that I thought I should keep a CRT around to use with it. I'll have to try it again and take a look. I don't remember it being dim. More of a scaling artifact issue if I remember correctly. I -Glen From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Jul 10 23:58:07 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:58:07 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum Message-ID: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> The Seattle Retro-Computing Society meets in Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum the forth Saturday of the month. (http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com ) We missed a couple of meetings because the building was being remodeled. Work is starting on museum exhibits for the general public. There is no announced opening date yet. You can request a tour of the existing site on their web site. http://www.pdpplanet.com I have posted some photos of the museum and our club meetings. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Living_Computer_Museum/SRCS.html Michael Holley (There may be a duplicate of this message.) From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:02:15 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:02:15 +0200 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? In-Reply-To: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> References: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <8a01ecd1c8a6dc5f04f817948b64b034.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > I saved a couple DEC VT525 terminals a year ago or so from a barn and > after cleaning them up, they seem to work mostly with the exception that > the video they produce on a number of different VGA LCD panels is quite > dim. Both terminals exhibit the same issue each on a number of different > LCD panels-- so I'm a little hesitant to blame something wrong with the > terminals and rather wonder about the VGA-ness of the signal they produce. > > I gather from the specs that it should be producing a 800x480 @ 73 > Hz signal. My monitors claim to do that and don't complain in any > way... other than that the video is pretty dim and washed out. > > Is there an existance proof of one of these working with a modern (3 or > 4 yr old) VGA LCD panel or were they only successful with pre-LCD CRT > monitors for some reason? > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > Yes, I have 2 of those, sans the cartridge. I use an HP 1740 LCD screen and that works for me. The keyboard I use is a LK97-W Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:09:46 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:09:46 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 Message-ID: <6178c91a1bdd214f9e34d70b4a8fd3cd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation duplicate or just a backup of some system. Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:36:57 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:36:57 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 Message-ID: <27576c6080288ff05f874ffd5b0773e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Tape has been claimed. > > I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. > > I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything > at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation > duplicate or just a backup of some system. > > Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid > (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) > > Ed > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Jul 11 02:19:47 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:19:47 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207110719.q6B7JlvJ005107@ls-al.eu> Amardeep S Chana wrote: > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > At a quick glance, those keyboard converters seem to mostly be going the > > wrong way for us. THey are to use strange keyboards on hosts with PS/2 > > interfaces. So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not > > the reverse. > > > > Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, > > that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 > > keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. > > My guess would be they're intended for people who want to emulate the > classic system on a modern machine but utilize the original system's > keyboard. It's not entirely unlike those PS/2 connector 3270 keyboards to > use with IBM terminal emulators. > I, for example, simply love the Sun model5 keyboards. Love 'm! So I'd be very happy to just be able to plug it in in every computer I have and use it. But, alas, not enough model5 boards laying around here, to be able to misuse it every day. re, Sander From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 02:47:58 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:47:58 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > > dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > > must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > > I've never worked on one of thsse, but I'll take a guess... > > Is there an AM7990 (40 pin DIL) on the board? If so, my first guess is > that this is an AM7992. See if the pins match up. > > -tony There is a Siemens chip, a 7990 compatible on the board, it is a later revision of the AMD Lance. I've already replaces the 7992, Set up Mop on my FreeBSD host and the DECserver is booting, displaying the cycling 8. Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 02:50:27 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:50:27 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:38:55 +0200 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > > documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter > > Card for an QBUS 11? > I have a: > M7651 DRV11-WA Q 18/22-bit DMA general purpose parallel interface > M7651 Refs: EK-DRVWA-UG, MP-01582, ZJ244-RZ, uNOTE N#041 > Maybe you can use it to interface some generic DAC to it? > As I still have to send some other stuff your way I could throw > the DRV11 into the pile. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} No thanks Jochen. But the Idea is good. I have 2 parallel interface boards (with and w/o DMA) myself so I could at least try this way. The TEK 611 hasn't arrived jet, and that project isn't the first in the quee, so it will take a while. Still have to copy cour disks... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 11 06:19:40 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:19:40 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. Message-ID: My dad turned this up the other day. He'd been tidying his desk and come across it! He's no idea where it came from, or what it's out of... Anybody got any ideas? Picture at http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3002.JPG (708KB) It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got one to hand to compare it too. Label shows a horse, CP Computer Products, Power Products Division and a matrix printed "PM671R". Underside has "Artwork PC19640, REV.B. Detail PC19641. Assembly PC19642. G T P 244" in copper. Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. Any ideas? Anybody have a use for it? FTGH just pay postage. Rob From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 06:34:00 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:34:00 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, which I believe was how some A II were. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson On 11 Jul 2012, at 12:25, Rob wrote: > My dad turned this up the other day. He'd been tidying his desk and > come across it! He's no idea where it came from, or what it's out > of... > > Anybody got any ideas? > > Picture at http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3002.JPG (708KB) > > It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got > one to hand to compare it too. Label shows a horse, CP Computer > Products, Power Products Division and a matrix printed "PM671R". > Underside has "Artwork PC19640, REV.B. Detail PC19641. Assembly > PC19642. G T P 244" in copper. > > Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > > It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. > > Any ideas? Anybody have a use for it? FTGH just pay postage. > > Rob From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 06:40:55 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:40:55 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Rob wrote: > Picture at http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3002.JPG (708KB) > > It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. > one to hand to compare it too. Label shows a horse, CP Computer > Products, Power Products Division and a matrix printed "PM671R". PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that label's on. Camiel. > > Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > > It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. > > Any ideas? Anybody have a use for it? FTGH just pay postage. > > Rob From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 11 06:39:16 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:39:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? Message-ID: <01OHQ2CXY94I000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> > >I wasn't too thrilled with the image quality of a VT525 on an LCD panel the >last time I tried it. Bad enough that I thought I should keep a CRT around >to use with it. I'll have to try it again and take a look. I don't >remember it being dim. More of a scaling artifact issue if I remember >correctly. I > I don't have a VT525 but I did try a newish LCD panel on an Alphaserver 1000A with a Trio S3 VGA graphics card. The results were very poor with stationary vertical corrugations and difficult to read text. I found a tweakable control on the LCD setup menu - I can't remember what it was called and can't check now - maybe it was "clock rate" or something like that. Whatever it was, adjusting it made a great improvement to the display. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 11 06:54:38 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:54:38 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On 11 July 2012 12:34, Mark Benson wrote: > Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab > in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or > similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style > backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, > which I believe was how some A II were. Hmm. That's a possibility - he never used an apple, but I know one passed through his hands a few years ago - it might be this relates to that, but it got lost at the time. On 11 July 2012 12:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got > > Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It > looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers > used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. Ah, as I said, I didn't have one to compare. It's a while since I've been playing with anything with ISA in it. The apple dad had briefly was, maybe, a IIe - would they be different? > PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that label's on. Well it was the only obvious label on there! :-) Rob From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:46:24 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:46:24 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Rob wrote: > On 11 July 2012 12:34, Mark Benson wrote: > > Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab > > in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or > > similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style > > backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, > > which I believe was how some A II were. > > Hmm. That's a possibility - he never used an apple, but I know one > passed through his hands a few years ago - it might be this relates to > that, but it got lost at the time. > > On 11 July 2012 12:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > >> It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got > > > > Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It > > looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers > > used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. > > Ah, as I said, I didn't have one to compare. It's a while since I've > been playing with anything with ISA in it. > > The apple dad had briefly was, maybe, a IIe - would they be different? > > > PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that > label's on. > > Well it was the only obvious label on there! :-) > > Rob > The Zilog 8530 is a serial communications device, and the 1488/1489 are level shifters that were commonly used for RS232 levels. The header plug has 2*13 pins, which matches the 25-pin RS232 connectors commonly used back then. The card appears to have been made in 1987 (from the date codes on the chips). So, probably an Apple II serial card, given that the board connector seems to match the Apple II expansion bus. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 08:44:44 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:44:44 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/10/2012 03:35 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >>> This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > >>> must be related to the BNC network. > >> > >> If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA > >> > >> The schematics of the 200 are at > >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 > > > > After replacing the broken Chip trough the 7992 it seems to be working > > again: > > Wow, nicely done...congrats on the fast repair and good score! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > THX, changing that chip wasn't really a problem. Now, after the help from you and crimping an adapter the DECserver talks to me: Local> Local -901- Initializing DECserver 300 08-00-2B-29-B0-B1 - ROM BL1.0.6 H/W 2 Local -953- Attempting to locate load host [ISO8802] Local -955- Host 00-00-92-90-09-8D located [ISO8802] Local -956- Requesting load from host 00-00-92-90-09-8D Local -903- Loading from host 00-00-92-90-09-8D Local -904- Image load complete Local - Telnet listener failed to bind socket Local - No internet address - SNMP not enabled ... after an return on the console port: DECserver 300 Terminal Server V2.2C (BL46-13) - LAT V5.1 (c) Copyright 1996, Digital Equipment Corporation - All Rights Reserved Please type HELP if you need assistance Enter username> Ok, entered holm, what else.. Local> Normally to cheange the ip address setup you have to rise the privielege: set priv Password> No I can enter a password 3 times before the unit logs me off :-( I've read that pressing the "Reset" switch while powering up the unit is setting the factory configuration, but this password question persists. Does anyone know the factory default user and password to set up that thing? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:02:22 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:02:22 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > set priv > Password> > No I can enter a password 3 times before the unit logs me off :-( > > I've read that pressing the "Reset" switch while powering up the unit is > setting the factory configuration, but this password question persists. > Does anyone know the factory default user and password to set up that > thing? I think it's "system" Camiel. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:32:08 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:32:08 -0400 Subject: TSX-Plus docs Message-ID: I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. Free for postage (media rate should not be too bad). -- Will From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:37:12 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:37:12 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Rob wrote: > >> On 11 July 2012 12:34, Mark Benson wrote: >> > Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab >> > in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or >> > similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style >> > backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, >> > which I believe was how some A II were. >> >> Hmm. That's a possibility - he never used an apple, but I know one >> passed through his hands a few years ago - it might be this relates to >> that, but it got lost at the time. >> >> On 11 July 2012 12:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> >> It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got >> > >> > Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It >> > looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers >> > used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. >> >> Ah, as I said, I didn't have one to compare. It's a while since I've >> been playing with anything with ISA in it. >> >> The apple dad had briefly was, maybe, a IIe - would they be different? >> >> > PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that >> label's on. >> >> Well it was the only obvious label on there! :-) >> >> Rob >> > > The Zilog 8530 is a serial communications device, and the 1488/1489 are > level shifters that were commonly used for RS232 levels. The header plug > has 2*13 pins, which matches the 25-pin RS232 connectors commonly used back > then. The card appears to have been made in 1987 (from the date codes on > the chips). > > So, probably an Apple II serial card, given that the board connector seems > to match the Apple II expansion bus. On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very likely an Apple II card. Camiel. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 09:44:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:44:04 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120711144404.GC17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > set priv > > Password> > > No I can enter a password 3 times before the unit logs me off :-( > > > > I've read that pressing the "Reset" switch while powering up the unit is > > setting the factory configuration, but this password question persists. > > Does anyone know the factory default user and password to set up that > > thing? > > I think it's "system" > > Camiel. Almost correct Camiel, found it in the meantime here: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/236 The Acess password is ACCESS, the Privilege Password is SYSTEM, both are uppercase. Thx, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:49:54 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:49:54 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <1829604078168233540@unknownmsgid> On 11 Jul 2012, at 15:42, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II > slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very > likely an Apple II card. > > Camiel. Does that mean I was right?? That was a totally off-the-top guess based on next to nothing... I have a IIe Enhanced but I took the lid off once and used it twice 5 years ago. Not a bad guess... ;) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:24:09 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:24:09 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <002101cd5f4e$5b1987a0$114c96e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: 2012/7/11 Camiel Vanderhoeven > > Yes, provided that it actually has something of interest on it - like > an installation kit - that is fully my intention (I am the new owner > ;-) > > Camiel. > -- Ola Hughson From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 10:47:12 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:47:12 -0700 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/12 7:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - > so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please > contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. dibs did I forget about this when you were out here? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 10:55:25 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:55:25 -0700 Subject: Tnix a.out Message-ID: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> Looks like Tnix has a normal PDP-11 a.out. dd copied over ran OK and the stock dd.c from the V7 source distribution compiled and ran. Discovered more tools that are missing (like nm and strip) This is interesting because the Tnix cross-development tools I've recovered (and that others might have on floppy) should be able to be run under SIMH. So if there are old development project sources floating around, they should be rebuildable without a 856x From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 11 11:12:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:12:09 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 Message-ID: According to the documentation for TECO v40: ^B (caret/B) is equivalent to the current date via the following equations: OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k where k = 4096 if year>1977 and k=0 otherwise RT-11: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*32)+year-1972 RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day TOPS-10: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) Notice how the year is added as the least significant bits for OS/8 and RT-11. For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? For RT-11, notice how year-1972 is packed into *5* bits (0..31), so years after 1972+31=2003 start carrying over into the bits for the month and day. Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 14:56:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:56:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Jul 11, 12 09:47:58 am Message-ID: > There is a Siemens chip, a 7990 compatible on the board, it is a later > revision of the AMD Lance. > I've already replaces the 7992, Set up Mop on my FreeBSD host and the Good guess then :-) Well done on fixing it. Where on earth did you find a 7992 so quickly? > DECserver is booting, displaying the cycling 8. > > Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. Most of the modular plug crim tools wil lcrimp MMJs too (the cheap-ish one I have certainly will), so you could make your own cables. When I needed to connect to a DEC MMJ serial port and didn't have the plug or tool, I soldered the wires to the pins of the socket on the solder side ofthe PCB. But that was just one port... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:02:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:02:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Jul 11, 12 12:19:40 pm Message-ID: > Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > > It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the Well, the Z85030 is a fancy serial chip that does synchronous as well as asynchronous. And the 1488/1489 are, of coures, RS232 driver and receiver chips. > chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. The 26 pin header might be wired for a straight-through cable to a DB25 conenctor. I can't think why it wasn't on the bracket, though Have you tried buzzing out the pins o nthe header togroudn and the 488/1489 to see if it could be that? As for what it's for, the obvious classic use fo the Z8530 is the Mac, so maybe Appletalk. But the buffers are wrong for that. Maybe to talk to an X25 network or soemthing? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:21:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:21:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 11, 12 03:13:05 pm Message-ID: > We're about the same age, I think, and in the early 1970s I was taught > both imperial and metric. I use a mix of both in my head - lengths in As I still do. My lathe is calibrated in inches (and 'thou' == 1/1000"), but I use metric twist drills and metric fasteners. For accurate work like that, I use my HP calculator which has the very useful 'unit management'. Incidentally, it is a great annoyance to machinists everywhere that there are 2.5.4mm in an inch. Point being that 254 factorises as 2*127 (127 is prime). SO do do exact metric screwcutting on an imperial lathe or vice versa you need a 127 tooth changewheel. However, there is a little trick... 8000/(3*21) is very close to 127 (in fact 8001/(3*127) _is_ 127). Since 8000 factorises easily into small numbers, you can get way with a 21 tooth changewheel as the only unusual one (all the otehr factsrs are easy to get from normal changewheels) for non-critical work. It's OK for making fasteners, etc, but not for making a micrometer screw :-)). You really didn't want to know that, right :-) > feet make more intuitive sense than metres, distances in miles and > speeds in mph rather than km or kph, for instance, although I'm quite > happy in both. I can't remember how many yards in a mile or ounces in I can rememerb all fo them. Mainly becasue a lot of the numbers come up elsewhwere. Thejre are 1760 yeards in a mile. 1760 is a numebr that is etched into my brain. Any idea waht? Well, it's 16*110, and most UARTs (serial chips) need a clock that's 16 times rthe baud rate). So 1760Hz is the clock freqeucny for 110 baud, as needed for taling to ASR33s. But there si a more practical point here. Although miles and yards are both units of length/distance, it's very rare fro the average pserson to need to convert between them. You use yards (feet and inches too) to measure your room for carpet or wallpaper. You use miles to work out how far it is to go to your relaitves (or wahtever). You don't have to relate them. Similarly you use poudns and ounces in the kitchen, stones when figuring out if you've eaten too much from said kitchen, and tons when you have to lift the family car (or whatever). Again, you don't need to relate them. > a pound or pounds in a stone or any of that rubbish though, so I use > metric for all those sorts of things unless it's a direct comparison - > e.g. British male clothes are sized in inches so I just go with the > flow. I have a 38" waist and a 36" inside leg because that's what all > the shops sell. OTOH I'm 6'2" tall or 1.88m depending on who's asking > - either is fine. I was once anked on a job applciation form for my 'weight'. I haev no idea why they wanted ot know this, I can't see how it can have any relevance to my abilities as an electronic designer. But I gave it anyway -- in Newtons. If they ask a scientist for a weight, it's going to come in units of weight (or force). If they want mass, they should ask for it :-) > But Fahrenheit never made any sense to me at all. One end of the scale > is entirely arbitrary, the other is an entirely different measure and > one that they measured wrongly anyway. It's seemed stupid and random It's not totally claear why fixed points were originally used. One version I heard went like this : He wanted all temperatures to be +ve, so he did indded make the coldest ice.salt mixture he could nad used that as a check (but not as the 0 of his scale) Melting ice was 32. Body temperature was 96. Point being there are then 64 degrees betwwen those points which is very easy to divide alogn a thermometer tube (dbisecting is a lot easier than dviding into tenths). > and senseless since I was a small child and I've never ever used it > for anything. Celsius is obvious and logical and rational. 0=B0 is > freezing, 100=B0 is boiling, bosh, there you are. Nto to me it isn't. Why pick water anyway? And waht is this insane love of multiples/powers of 10? I much prefer an absolute temperature scale. I normally use kelvin... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 15:50:11 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:50:11 -0400 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, >> otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. >> No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. >> >> It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > > Well, the Z85030 is a fancy serial chip that does synchronous as well as > asynchronous. Yep. Check the connector traces for RS232 pins 15 and 17 - if those are routed through from the 26-pin connector to a line receiver, it's entirely possible that this would be a sync serial port (or optionally async/sync depending on setting). There are a couple other sync serial arrangements, but the one that's common (for sync) and supported, involves the board receiving clocking from the modem/modem-eliminator. > As for what it's for, the obvious classic use fo the Z8530 is the Mac, so > maybe Appletalk. But the buffers are wrong for that. Maybe to talk to an > X25 network or soemthing? Perhaps. Ordinary Apple serial cards used 6551 ACIA UARTs. Those are a lot easier to talk to than the Z8530, so one would expect there would be a reason to use a Z8530 that's fancier than just needing to push bytes to a dumb device. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 11 16:45:26 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:45:26 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFDF3F6.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/11/2012 2:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I much prefer an absolute temperature scale. I normally use kelvin... I use me as the scale, too hot turn on the AC until it feels nice, too cold turn up the fire. I smell smoke, turn off the fire! > -tony > As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded items and nuts not in blister pack of ones and twos. Ben. PS. In search of spacers for 10-40 bolts today. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 11:35:04 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:35:04 -0400 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > dibs > did I forget about this when you were out here? No, this is new. I am finally going through the Joe Heck DECpaper he offered a year or two back. There are some good bits in it, including some catalogs listing some stuff that I do not think ever left the lab (VT27? Apparently a VT52 with a detachable keyboard). Anyway, one of these year Western roadtrips will probably be devoted to hauling a bunch of stuff for you to scan (or maybe we can convince Bruce to do some to lighten the load). I am about half done cataloging the IBM stuff (although apparently three more boxes will show up today from the Fochtman estate - a separate project, since CHM has dibs on them), then I start with CDC, then DEC. I think at this point the only things of mine you have that I actually want back are those CDC manuals for the RJE station, and that PERQ disk. No hurry on either at all. -- Will From wrm at retro.co.za Wed Jul 11 12:18:32 2012 From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:18:32 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> >On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >likely an Apple II card. Naaah, I disagree. Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like signals going to the 244. On an Apple the pins 45 and 47 (the way this card is numbered) would be daisy chained to the other side. Not Apple IMO. W From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Jul 11 12:25:04 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar Message-ID: <50258.519b5473.3d2f10f0@aol.com> live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar Webcasts The National Air and Space Museum offers live webcasts of select public programs. Please check the schedule below for programs that offer a live webcast and visit this page to view the webcast. (http://airandspace.si.edu/imagedetail.cfm?imageID=3587) Next Webcast: _Telstar 50th Anniversary_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=4057) Thursday, July 12, 2012, 1:30 pm Refresh this page near the start time of the next event to view the live webcast. View previously recorded events in the _Webcast Archive_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/lectures/webcast/archive.cfm) . Upcoming Webcasts: 07/12/2012 - _Telstar 50th Anniversary_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=4057) - 1:30 pm live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar Thursday, July 12th between 1:30 and 4pm EST (1730-2000 UT) there will be a live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar. The National Air and Space Museum's Space History and Education divisions, in collaboration with the French Embassy, will host a symposium to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Telstar satellite, representing the birth of global telecommunications. The symposium will be presented in two parts. The first is a half-hour satellite television connection between the Museum and the Pleumeur-Bodou Tele communications Museum in France to commemorate the first global transmission of a television signal. Speakers include Secretary of the Smithsonian Wayne Clough and French Ambassador to the United States Fran?ois Delattre. The second part of the symposium features three sessions, with historians and experts from industry and government, discussing major aspects of the Telstar project and its impact on the development of global communications. The event also will include footage from the original 1962 broadcast. Telstar 1 launched on July 10, 1962 from Cape Canaveral and was the first privately sponsored spacefaring mission. It handled a variety of transmissions, including telephone, fax, data, still pictures, and television signals, from several locations across the United States and Europe. Additional information on the program and the history of Telstar, is available on a _website_ (http://telstar50.org/) developed by the Embassy of France. Be sure to Check SMECC MUSEUM TELSTAR GOODIES _http://www.smecc.org/telstar_photo_album.htm_ (http://www.smecc.org/telstar_photo_album.htm) [ _John Pierce / Telstar_ (http://www.smecc.org/john_pierce1.htm) ] ]_A. C. Dickieson_ (http://www.smecc.org/a__c__dickieson.htm) ] _James Early / TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/james_early___telstar.htm) ] _Memorabilia / TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/memorabilia___telstar.htm) ] _Telstar Broadcasts_ (http://www.smecc.org/telstar_broadcasts.htm) ] _W.J.Bray - UK_ (http://www.smecc.org/w_j_bray_-_uk.htm) ] _K.D. Smith Bell Solar Batteries TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/k_d__smith__bell_solar_batteries_telstar.htm) ] _TELSTAR - Joe Meek_ (http://www.smecc.org/telstar_-_joe_meek.htm) ] _Eugene O'Neill - TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/eugene_o'niell_-_telstar.htm) ] On the 12th see the Live Webcast or the archive later at below link Live Webcast _http://airandspace.si.edu/events/lectures/webcast_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/lectures/webcast) From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jul 11 12:33:31 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:33:31 +0200 Subject: Tnix a.out In-Reply-To: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Are there some kind of emulation project around these Tektronix computers/devices ? Regards SPc. 2012/7/11 Al Kossow > Looks like Tnix has a normal PDP-11 a.out. > > dd copied over ran OK and the stock dd.c from the V7 source distribution > compiled > and ran. > > Discovered more tools that are missing (like nm and strip) > > This is interesting because the Tnix cross-development tools I've recovered > (and that others might have on floppy) should be able to be run under SIMH. > > So if there are old development project sources floating around, they > should > be rebuildable without a 856x > > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 11 12:39:45 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:39:45 -0500 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? In-Reply-To: <01OHQ2CXY94I000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OHQ2CXY94I000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120711173945.GA18546@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/11/2012 at 12:39PM +0100), Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I wasn't too thrilled with the image quality of a VT525 on an LCD panel the > >last time I tried it. Bad enough that I thought I should keep a CRT around > >to use with it. I'll have to try it again and take a look. I don't > >remember it being dim. More of a scaling artifact issue if I remember > >correctly. I > > > > I don't have a VT525 but I did try a newish LCD panel on an Alphaserver 1000A > with a Trio S3 VGA graphics card. > > The results were very poor with stationary vertical corrugations and difficult > to read text. > > I found a tweakable control on the LCD setup menu - I can't remember what it > was called and can't check now - maybe it was "clock rate" or something like > that. Whatever it was, adjusting it made a great improvement to the display. OK. Thanks Peter and others who responded. I'll try turning some more "knobs" on the LCDs and see if I can make an improvement. It does seem like a clocking or refresh rate sort of issue which is why I wondered if the '525 worked better with a CRT than an LCD. Maybe I'll have to get a VGA to HDMI converter and hook it to a 53" big screen and see how that looks ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 13:10:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:10:34 -0700 Subject: Tnix a.out In-Reply-To: References: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FFDC19A.7000500@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/12 10:33 AM, SPC wrote: > Are there some kind of emulation project around these Tektronix > computers/devices ? > I will be letting the MESS folks know about the documentation and rom dumps once I have the work finished. I just found a service manual for the 8562 and will be adding that information to the scans on bitsavers. The hardware for the 856x is a lot like the Terak in that the I/O is incompatible with DECs, and there aren't any driver sources around. So right now it's just getting as much information collected as I can find so that someone might have a chance of doing something in the future. Considering how many Tek development systems and Teraks were sold, I'm surprised at how long it's taken me to get this far. I was looking at some of my old emails and I have been working on tracking this stuff down for almost 10 years. It did turn out that getting those two 8560s in May was pretty important for both of the projects. I discovered that there were Terak floppies mixed in, and that the seller had a Terak monitor and keyboard. He had sold the CPU sepratately :-( I've not actually been able to get the 8560s to work, but it did prompt me to dig out the 8550 and a pair of 8562s that I had in storage and was able to prod one of them into running after I had the 8560 service manual and Tnix documentation that came as part of the eBay lot. From gm10 at consulnix.com Wed Jul 11 13:52:58 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:52:58 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 Keyboard for parts? Message-ID: Hi, Been lurking for a month or two, and have been enjoying the conversations. I was curious if anybody had a Xerox 820 keyboard laying around that wasn't needed. Or parts to one. I have one that needs a switch replaced. Ideally, a right CTRL key would be handy too, but I might be able to salvage mine. The keyboard assembly is made by Maxi-Switch Co. with a PN of 630107-02. I don't have a PN for the switches themselves, but they look like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/489067/test/20120709_154136.jpg Thanks in advance! Garrett Meiers From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 11 14:10:02 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:02 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:50:27 +0200 Holm Tiffe wrote: > No thanks Jochen. But the Idea is good. > I have 2 parallel interface boards (with and w/o DMA) myself so > I could at least try this way. OK. I see. You are well equiped in this depatement. > Still have to copy cour disks... No need to hurry. I was waiting for these disks to appear for 10 years. One month more or less doesn't count. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jul 11 16:51:50 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:51:50 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFDF576.7050000@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-11 18:12, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:12:09 -0600 > From: Richard > To:cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 > Message-ID: > > According to the documentation for TECO v40: > > ^B (caret/B) is equivalent to the current date > via the following equations: > > OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k > where k = 4096 if year>1977 > and k=0 otherwise > RT-11: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*32)+year-1972 > RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year > RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > TOPS-10: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) > > Notice how the year is added as the least significant bits for OS/8 > and RT-11. > > For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if > the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are > encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? > > For RT-11, notice how year-1972 is packed into *5* bits (0..31), so > years after 1972+31=2003 start carrying over into the bits for the month > and day. > > Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? I don't have an OS/8 system up and running right now, but OS/8 itself only keeps dates in that format. It has two additional bits stored at another location, which tells how the year is to be interpreted. I would suspect that TECO8 just sets the 13th bit if the two "century" bits in OS/8 is non-zero. So, years higher than 1977 are actually encoded as 4096+((year-1970) mod 8). Which, incidentally, is also exactly what the documentation you quote is saying... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jul 11 17:16:37 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 18:16:37 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384@rickmurphy.net> At 12:12 PM 7/11/2012, Richard wrote: >For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if >the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are >encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? >... >Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? As already mentioned, this is consistent with OS/8 date code - 3 bits of year and two of extension. You can't enter dates later than 1999: .DATE 31-DEC-99 .DATE Friday December 31, 1999 .DATE 1-JAN-00 BAD DATE .DATE 1-JAN-2000 BAD DATE What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: .R TECO *^B==$$ 16375 (12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 (1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 11 17:32:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:32:30 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384@rickmurphy.net> References: <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: In article <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384 at rickmurphy.net>, Rick Murphy writes: > You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) > but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. Thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From earl at retrobits.com Wed Jul 11 18:16:52 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:16:52 -0700 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/11/12 7:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - >> so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please >> contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. >> > > dibs > did I forget about this when you were out here? > > Crossing my fingers these will be online...will be great to see them. - Earl From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 11 18:54:51 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:54:51 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >According to the documentation for TECO v40: > > ^B (caret/B) is equivalent to the current date > via the following equations: > > OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k > where k = 4096 if year>1977 > and k=0 otherwise > RT-11: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*32)+year-1972 > RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year > RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > TOPS-10: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) > >Notice how the year is added as the least significant bits for OS/8 >and RT-11. > >For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if >the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are >encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? > >For RT-11, notice how year-1972 is packed into *5* bits (0..31), so >years after 1972+31=2003 start carrying over into the bits for the month >and day. > >Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? > First an obvious observation. The committee which approved the bit structure for the date in RT-11 did not seem to be thinking very clearly. It is one of the few areas which are disappointing in RT-11. The 5 bits for the year should have been specified first, then the month followed finally by the day in the lowest 5 bits. Then at least until 2099, the date value would have been an obvious value - assuming a clever programmer did not steal the high order bit to save a word in some of the programs - which was done in PIP. Obviously, ALL of the operating systems will or already have problems with the date and will or already have broken the above algorithms. I think that OS/8 has already been answered. For RT-11, after 2003, those 5 year bits are reused, so the RT-11 development team finally published (around 1989) how the dates after 2003 would be kept - at least until 2099. If you understand the RT-11 value, then there are still 2 bits left in the 16 bit word for the date at the high end. Starting on January 1st, 2004, bit 14 is set and added to the 5 low order bits for the year - in bit position 5 of course - so that if bit 14 is set, 32 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2036, bit 15 is set (bit 14 is unset) and 64 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2068, both bits 14 and 15 will be set and 96 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Naturally, the above finally breaks on January 1st, 2100 and a second word to hold the extra year bits will be required for the next 128 year cycle - or some other method will be required. There has been some discussion as to how all of the operating systems will handle dates over the next few hundred years, but thus far there does not seem to be much interest. For myself, I have proposed adding a second word to RT-11 to hold the extra year values, but nothing specific has been agreed to or even suggested by any one else except by the developer of RUST. Note that an extra word for the resident portion of RT-11 is the trivial aspect. Where the extra bits are held for file and tape directories is the critical problem. In addition, I suggest that other date and time information be supported in file directories and one of the bits in the first word (the low order bit might be best) for the status of a file label in a file structured RT-11 device) be set to note that any additional words in a file label are for the date and time of: (a) File Creation (b) File Modification (c) File Access (d) File Backup (e) Anything else that is appropriate. Note that bit 14 in that status word is already being used for the READ ONLY status and has been implemented in the RT-11 operating system since 1989 for V05.05 of RT-11. The only problem is that PIP still does not set or clear that bit and DIR does not display the status. ALSO, RUST has a problem if that bit is ever set - or so I understand - and the problem may be serious enough to cause RUST to crash. Since RT-11 seems unlikely to have another release after V05.07 except for hobby users and I have not heard from anyone else that they are considering spending the time to work on another release - unless there is some other RT-11 addict lurking that has not added their thoughts - I doubt there is anyone else who might consider spending the time on RT-11 at this point. Note that the last release in 1998 of V05.07 of RT-11 was 15 years ago which was 25 years after the first release of RT-11 in 1973 (as far as any records I have). Perhaps, on the 50 year anniversary in 10 years there could be a V05.08 for RT-11???????????????????? I have requested suggestions and a discussion for RT-11 and some co-ordination with all of the other operating systems. I request that again! Jerome Fine From saipan59 at q.com Wed Jul 11 22:27:14 2012 From: saipan59 at q.com (Pete McCollum) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: lot of DEC equipment for sale Message-ID: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> We're moving, and I need to down-size considerably. I want to sell the following DEC gear as a lot for $2000. You must be able to pick it up in Colorado Springs. Everything goes together, please - no cherry-picking. You take it all, and you can dispose of the stuff you don't want. Here's the highlights: PDP-8E. Years ago, I was able to key in stuff from the front panel, but it didn't seem to execute. But I think it's not too far from working. PDP-11/05. The 5V power rail doesn't work, and the core memory is flakey, but years ago I hooked up an external 5V supply, cabled the Unibus to an external DD11 with MOS memory, and booted and ran RT-11 using my RX01 emulator board. The front panel is ugly, but all the switches and lights work. Includes spare CPU and memory-controller cards, but at least some of them don't work. VT05 terminal. DEC's first general-purpose video terminal. Quite rare, I think. It works, last time I tried. VT100 terminal. Works. PDP-11/03-L system box. It's a rack-mountable BA11 chassis with CPU, memory, BDV11, and serial card. PDT-150. Works. Have a spare CPU board also. VAXstation 3100-M38. AlphaStation 200 -4/166. "Pizza box" storage box. Accepts 3 SCSI SBB disk drives. About 2 linear feet of microfiche, tech and maint. info. These alone are worths 100's of $$ on eBay. This is mostly "good stuff". Option Module List books, 4 volumes. VMS CDs. Digital Technical Journals - I think it's a complete set. DEC handbooks - about 4-5 linear feet. A variety of modules, including Unibus, Q-bus, u-VAX, and some straight-8 flip-chip cards. Also available, but for an additional cost: Original Commodore PET, 8K RAM, chiclet keyboard. It was my very first computer in 1979. Atari 800 system. HP-85. A home-brew S-100 system that I built, based on a PDP-8i switch panel and vintage LEDs. Pete Contact me at: saipan59 at Q dot com. Or call: 719 282 1033 (weekends, or evenings before 10PM Mountain) From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jul 12 01:46:01 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:46:01 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > There is a Siemens chip, a 7990 compatible on the board, it is a later > > revision of the AMD Lance. > > I've already replaced the 7992, Set up Mop on my FreeBSD host and the > > Good guess then :-) Well done on fixing it. Where on earth did you find a > 7992 so quickly? > *grin* In my closet full of chips and other electronics. I saved the LANCE Chips (complete with Transformer and the Am7996) from an old Network card years before to build some networking support for an SBC with M68010 CPU sometimes in the future. I've never build that, but I knew the chips must be somewhere.. it took my half an hour to finally find them. > > DECserver is booting, displaying the cycling 8. > > > > Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. > > Most of the modular plug crim tools wil lcrimp MMJs too (the cheap-ish > one I have certainly will), so you could make your own cables. When I > needed to connect to a DEC MMJ serial port and didn't have the plug or > tool, I soldered the wires to the pins of the socket on the solder side > ofthe PCB. But that was just one port... > > -tony I've found out, that my crimp tool seems to support them too, but I don't have the plugs. I used an 6 pin normal modular plug and removed a half of the lever clip with a saw..it fits in, but it doesn't click.... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 05:11:21 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:11:21 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On 7/11/12, Wouter wrote: > >>On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>likely an Apple II card. > > Naaah, I disagree. > > Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. > > But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power > is at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like > signals going to the 244. That is what I thought initially, then I got confused by the pin numbers on this card, thought my memory had failed me, but you're absolutely right, it's not an Apple II card (at least not standard). So, on third thought, I'm back to what I said in my first thought ;-) From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jul 12 05:16:58 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:16:58 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: > >> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >> likely an Apple II card. > > Naaah, I disagree. > > Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. > > But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is > at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like > signals going to the 244. Here's the back side- http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG Power definitely in the middle! Rob From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Jul 12 05:44:26 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:44:26 +1000 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: <66AC2401-E713-4442-A968-63E677C2B6E7@mactec.com.au> On 12/07/2012, at 8:16 PM, Rob wrote: > On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: >> >>> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>> likely an Apple II card. >> >> Naaah, I disagree. >> >> Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. >> >> But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is >> at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like >> signals going to the 244. > > Here's the back side- > http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG > > Power definitely in the middle! > > Rob The only computer apart from the Apple II that I've come across with similar looking 50 pin cards is the Hitachi MB-6890, but I no longer have one or any documentation.. Chris From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jul 12 05:51:05 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:51:05 +0200 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-12 12:11, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 12:12 PM 7/11/2012, Richard wrote: >> >For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if >> >the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are >> >encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? >> >... >> >Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? > As already mentioned, this is consistent with OS/8 date code - 3 bits > of year and two of extension. > > You can't enter dates later than 1999: > > .DATE 31-DEC-99 > > .DATE > Friday December 31, 1999 > > .DATE 1-JAN-00 > BAD DATE > .DATE 1-JAN-2000 > BAD DATE Right. But that is a limitation of the command decoder, and have very little to do with any other part of OS/8 date handling. The date encoding in OS/8 itself actually worked until 2002. > What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: > .R TECO > *^B==$$ > 16375 > > (12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 > (1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 > 3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. > > You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) > but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, 1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. The problem is that OS/8 keeps two bits for the extension of the years, while TECO compressed that into just one bit. Loss of information follows. However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 06:58:37 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On 7/11/12, Wouter wrote: >> >>> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>> likely an Apple II card. >> >> Naaah, I disagree. >> >> Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. >> >> But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power >> is at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like >> signals going to the 244. > > That is what I thought initially, then I got confused by the pin > numbers on this card, thought my memory had failed me, but you're > absolutely right, it's not an Apple II card (at least not standard). > So, on third thought, I'm back to what I said in my first thought ;-) Wasn't there a short-lived "S-50" bus once upon a time? -- From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 07:15:47 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:15:47 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: > Wasn't there a short-lived "S-50" bus once upon a time? There was an SS50 bus, but the pins don't make sense for that bus either: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/swtpc/ss50.html From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 12 10:26:07 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:26:07 +0200 Subject: Latest find 11/03 from a VAX 785 Message-ID: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, I found an 11/03 at a customer and he said 'take it if you want...' which, of course I did. He said it was a spare bootsystem for their (long gone) VAX 785. It has a bit of an odd card in it, almost empty with 50 pin connectors on it and just a few chips on it. I guess this went into the VAX to boot/load the microcode? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 10:40:38 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:40:38 +0200 Subject: Latest find 11/03 from a VAX 785 In-Reply-To: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 7/12/12, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Well, I found an 11/03 at a customer and he said 'take it if you want...' > which, of course I did. He said it was a spare bootsystem for their > (long gone) VAX 785. Gotta love a customer like that! > It has a bit of an odd card in it, almost empty with 50 pin connectors > on it and just a few chips on it. > I guess this went into the VAX to boot/load the microcode? The VAX would have had an interface board (CIB?) which connected to this card, it's just an extension of the PDP's QBUS (the chips are probably just some buffers/line drivers). The logic for the interface was on the VAX card. Camiel. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Jul 12 10:41:11 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:41:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Rob wrote: > On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: >> >>> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>> likely an Apple II card. >> >> Naaah, I disagree. >> >> Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. >> >> But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is >> at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like >> signals going to the 244. > > Here's the back side- > http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG > > Power definitely in the middle! I googled the text on the back of the card, and I got a single good hit for GTP244. http://www.signs101.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-64287.html It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and GTP293-1 cards in it. Perhaps your card is from a proprietary expansion bus in this plotter? Alexey From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 10:45:00 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:45:00 +0200 Subject: Latest find 11/03 from a VAX 785 In-Reply-To: References: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > The VAX would have had an interface board (CIB?) which connected to > this card, it's just an extension of the PDP's QBUS (the chips are > probably just some buffers/line drivers). The logic for the interface > was on the VAX card. A technical description of the CIB board is on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-KC780-TD-001_ConsoleIntfTechDescr_Mar78.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 12 11:19:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:19:02 -0700 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: References: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FFEF8F6.4060409@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/12 4:16 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 7/11/12 7:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - >>> so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please >>> contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. >>> >> >> dibs >> did I forget about this when you were out here? >> >> Crossing my fingers these will be online...will be great to see them. > > - Earl > > there are already some version up at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus From jam at magic.com Thu Jul 12 11:19:24 2012 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lot of DEC equipment for sale In-Reply-To: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> References: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <201207121619.JAA14843@mist.magic.com> Pete, I am interested in these. How soon do you need these to be gone? I would also be interested in the Commodore PET. Thanks, James Markevitch On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Pete McCollum wrote: > We're moving, and I need to down-size considerably. > I want to sell the following DEC gear as a lot for $2000. > You must be able to pick it up in Colorado Springs. > Everything goes together, please - no cherry-picking. You take it all, and you can dispose of the stuff you don't want. > Here's the highlights: > PDP-8E. Years ago, I was able to key in stuff from the front panel, but it didn't seem to execute. But I think it's not too far from working. > PDP-11/05. The 5V power rail doesn't work, and the core memory is flakey, but years ago I hooked up an external 5V supply, cabled the Unibus to an external DD11 with MOS memory, and booted and ran RT-11 using my RX01 emulator board. The front panel is ugly, but all the switches and lights work. Includes spare CPU and memory-controller cards, but at least some of them don't work. > VT05 terminal. DEC's first general-purpose video terminal. Quite rare, I think. It works, last time I tried. > VT100 terminal. Works. > PDP-11/03-L system box. It's a rack-mountable BA11 chassis with CPU, memory, BDV11, and serial card. > PDT-150. Works. Have a spare CPU board also. > VAXstation 3100-M38. > AlphaStation 200 -4/166. > "Pizza box" storage box. Accepts 3 SCSI SBB disk drives. > About 2 linear feet of microfiche, tech and maint. info. These alone are worths 100's of $$ on eBay. This is mostly "good stuff". > Option Module List books, 4 volumes. > VMS CDs. > Digital Technical Journals - I think it's a complete set. > DEC handbooks - about 4-5 linear feet. > A variety of modules, including Unibus, Q-bus, u-VAX, and some straight-8 flip-chip cards. > > Also available, but for an additional cost: > Original Commodore PET, 8K RAM, chiclet keyboard. It was my very first computer in 1979. > Atari 800 system. > HP-85. > A home-brew S-100 system that I built, based on a PDP-8i switch panel and vintage LEDs. > > Pete > Contact me at: > saipan59 > at > Q > dot > com. > Or call: > 719 282 1033 (weekends, or evenings before 10PM Mountain) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:31:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:31:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 11, 12 04:50:11 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > >> otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > >> No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > >> > >> It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > > > > Well, the Z85030 is a fancy serial chip that does synchronous as well as > > asynchronous. > > Yep. > > Check the connector traces for RS232 pins 15 and 17 - if those are > routed through from the 26-pin connector to a line receiver, it's > entirely possible that this would be a sync serial port (or optionally > async/sync depending on setting). There are a couple other sync > serial arrangements, but the one that's common (for sync) and > supported, involves the board receiving clocking from the > modem/modem-eliminator. IIRC the Z8530 is a dual-channel device. I wonder if one channel is just not used, or if 2 serial ports end up on that 26 pi nehader (which would then not be wried to go straight to a DB25). I think the OP is going to have to start tracing connections :-) Also, we're all assuming it goes in a computer. It might be from some kind of RS232 switch, statitical multiplexer, network interface, or something like that. > > > As for what it's for, the obvious classic use fo the Z8530 is the Mac, so > > maybe Appletalk. But the buffers are wrong for that. Maybe to talk to an > > X25 network or soemthing? > > Perhaps. Ordinary Apple serial cards used 6551 ACIA UARTs. Those are Well, Apple ][ _Super Serial Cards_ and clones thereof used the 6551. There';s ao older Apple brand Apple ][ serial card that uses a 6850. I seem to rememebr that oen only does a very limited range of baud rates (set in ahrdare) and to get others you (semi-officially, it's in the manual) do cut-and-jumper mods. And before that there wa a bit-banger. > a lot easier to talk to than the Z8530, so one would expect there The 6551 (and 6850) are easier to interfce to the 6502 bus and easier to write software drivers for than the Z8530. The latter chip would not have been used unless there's a good reason for it. > would be a reason to use a Z8530 that's fancier than just needing to > push bytes to a dumb device. We agree :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:36:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:36:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FFDF3F6.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Jul 11, 12 03:45:26 pm Message-ID: > As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded items and nuts > not in blister pack of ones and twos. I know the problem... That's a very expensive way to buy them. OFten 10 small nuts bought that way will cost more than a box of 1000.... I tend to buy my most-used hardware (M3, M4, etc) in such large boxes, I am going to use them... > Ben. > PS. In search of spacers for 10-40 bolts today. > One thing I use the lathe for is making special threaded parts. I am not goign to start makign standard M3 nutes, but if I need a tapped spacer, or am odd-treaded bolt (M3 * 06.mm pitch, as I mentioend a while back) or somethign like that, I jsut turn it. Finding UNC and UNF parts over here, particularly the 'number' sizes is very difficult. You can sometimes find 4-40 and 6-32 sold for PC assmebling. Some model shops sell them, but at _ridiculous_ prices (like \pounds 2.50 for 4 nuts). I tend to buy them from Digikey. The postage is high, but at least I can get them I guess you haev similar problems finding BA nuts and bolts :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:41:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:41:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Dave" at Jul 11, 12 11:30:42 pm Message-ID: > Oddly I find it cheaper to buy Plotter Pens from the US. They say "Made in > the UK" on them but they cost about half the price per pack than if I get > them in the UK. The only problem is that I can only buy one pack at a time > other wise I might be liable for Tax and Duty :-( It's not the tax that bothers me, it's the 'inspection fee'.. Quite what this fee is supposed to be for is beyond me, many times i've been (correctly, as the value was over the limit) been charged tax on intems shipped ot me from the states aod of course I get this extra fee slapped on. But the parcel has not been opened, they take the value from the green sticker that the sender put on. Hmmm... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 12 13:30:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: <20120712112648.F86809@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and GTP293-1 > cards in it. Perhaps your card is from a proprietary expansion bus in this > plotter? I don't know anything about their product line. But, as a nostalgic old fart, . . . I did a little time at GSFC SSDC (Bldg 26) on "the etch-a-sketch" - A Gerber Data Digitizer that consisted of a light board about 2 feet square, with two big knobs to turn to move cross-hairs. When you had them where you wanted, you hit a foot-pedal and an 026 punch next to it punched two three digit numbers for the coordinates. From ats at offog.org Thu Jul 12 11:38:05 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:38:05 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: (Alexey Toptygin's message of "Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:41:11 +0000 (UTC)") References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: Alexey Toptygin writes: > It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and > GTP293-1 cards in it. And the Gerber parts list at includes: "GX P35657C GTP-244-1 Ser. Com LMK-Interface GX4/SP/SSP" Searching for 'Gerber "Lettering Machine Kit"' will find more references -- including people who have a plotter and would like to buy the serial card for it. ("Gerber LMK" will also get you there, if you ignore the results about knives.) -- Adam Sampson From wrm at retro.co.za Thu Jul 12 12:13:52 2012 From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:13:52 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120712185228.035074d8@196.22.225.198> > >Wasn't there a short-lived "S-50" bus once upon a time? There was an SS-50 bus which was a 680x bus by as far as I remember mostly SWTPC and Gimix, and that was based on 0.1" headers with the sockets on the motherboards. There was also an SS-30 bus for I/O -- similar to the Apple II in that each slot had a decoded select signal. Dave Dunfield knows more than most of us about this :-) W From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 12:29:52 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:29:52 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFE124B.4080101 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > For RT-11, after 2003, those 5 year bits are reused, so the RT-11 > development > team finally published (around 1989) how the dates after 2003 would be > kept - at least until 2099. If you understand the RT-11 value, then there > are still 2 bits left in the 16 bit word for the date at the high end. > Starting > on January 1st, 2004, bit 14 is set and added to the 5 low order bits for > the year - in bit position 5 of course - so that if bit 14 is set, 32 > years are > added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2036, > bit 15 is set (bit 14 is unset) and 64 years are added to the low order > 5 bits > for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2068, both bits 14 and 15 will > be set > and 96 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. This is great info, thanks. I will use this in my TECO HTTP server date decoding for RT-11. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 12 13:47:31 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:47:31 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >In article Jerome H. Fine writes: > >>For RT-11, after 2003, those 5 year bits are reused, so the RT-11 >>development >>team finally published (around 1989) how the dates after 2003 would be >>kept - at least until 2099. If you understand the RT-11 value, then there >>are still 2 bits left in the 16 bit word for the date at the high end. >>Starting >>on January 1st, 2004, bit 14 is set and added to the 5 low order bits for >>the year - in bit position 5 of course - so that if bit 14 is set, 32 >>years are >>added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2036, >>bit 15 is set (bit 14 is unset) and 64 years are added to the low order >>5 bits >>for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2068, both bits 14 and 15 will >>be set >>and 96 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. >> >This is great info, thanks. I will use this in my TECO HTTP server >date decoding for RT-11. > I am curious. What is the connection between your TECO HTTP server and date decoding for RT-11? I thought that only RT-11 uses the date in the RT-11 format. How does a TECO variant which uses the RT-11 date format end up running on an HTTP server? I am probably asking the wrong question since I assume that the only TECO variant that uses the RT-11 date format is a variant of TECO which runs under RT-11. I still use TECO, in this case V36 which was distributed with V05.00 of RT-11 in March 1983. DEC stopped distributing TECO after V05.00 of RT-11, but still supports using TECO. Does V40 of TECO have many additional features over V36? Is there a V40 of TECO available which will run under RT-11? Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 13:56:46 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:56:46 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I thought that only RT-11 uses the date in the RT-11 format. How does > a TECO variant which uses the RT-11 date format end up running on > an HTTP server? I think you have the funnel pointed the wrong way round... The OP is discussing an implementation detail of an HTTP Server *written in* TECO, not TECO running on an HTTP server. > I am probably asking the wrong question since I > assume that the only TECO variant that uses the RT-11 date format > is a variant of TECO which runs under RT-11. Nope. You got that part right. The OP wants to run TECO on a small PDP-11, and the obvious starting point for an OS on that hardware would be RT-11. He's then putting his own TECO macro on all of that, and his code happens to perform the functions of an HTTP server. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:55:03 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFF1BC3.10204 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > I am curious. What is the connection between your TECO HTTP server > and date decoding for RT-11? RFC2616, 14.18 Date: [...] "The HTTP-date sent in a Date header SHOULD NOT represent a date and time subsequent to the generation of the message. It SHOULD represent the best available approximation of the date and time of message generation, unless the implementation has no means of generating a reasonably accurate date and time. In theory, the date ought to represent the moment just before the entity is generated. In practice, the date can be generated at any time during the message origination without affecting its semantic value." ^B returns current date as a numeric value. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 16:17:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:17:46 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFF1BC3.10204 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > I still use TECO, in this case V36 which was distributed with V05.00 of > RT-11 in March 1983. DEC stopped distributing TECO after V05.00 > of RT-11, but still supports using TECO. Does V40 of TECO have > many additional features over V36? Is there a V40 of TECO available > which will run under RT-11? Sorry, didn't notice the second part before I answered the first part. AFAIK, V36 and V40 are not appreciably different in their handling of ^B on any OS. Here is a release notes file summarizing changes from V36 to V39: Looks like there are more goodies here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 12 16:39:02 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:39:02 -0600 Subject: potter pens. Message-ID: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> I just noticed this ad about space pens. Will the same cartridges fit on the older plotter? http://www.spacepen.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 12 23:18:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120712211720.A6156@shell.lmi.net> > Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a second > opinion on your condition... How would that differ from paramedics? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 17:00:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:00:57 -0600 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? Message-ID: Anyone got one? I'm curious to look at it. According to , it was a merger of TECMACS and TMACS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Jul 12 18:53:00 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:53:00 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201207122353.q6CNr0e3024264@rickmurphy.net> At 06:51 AM 7/12/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >Right. But that is a limitation of the command decoder, and have very >little to do with any other part of OS/8 date handling. The date >encoding in OS/8 itself actually worked until 2002. What you mean is that you can set the system date information to correspond to dates as late as 2002 if you either do it by hand (ODT) or with some other program. However, being able to set the date to something in 2001 doesn't help you much, because nothing that I know of that's shipped with the OS handles dates past 1999. (Note: I don't know if any of the OS/78 or OS/278 kits did anything here.) For example, setting the date to 31-DEC-77 then setting the two extended date bits on gives you: .DATE Monday December 31, 19 1 OK, that's still the Command Decoder. How about DIR? .DIR 2000.* 31-Dec-101 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-101 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks Looks like the date handling is pretty broken. Unless you're aware of something that actually displays the right date for such things. Oh, and the other fun aspect: .DATE 1-JAN-77 .DIR 2000.* 01-Jan-77 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-77 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks When you change the date, you might also be changing the creation dates for files by one or more multiples of 8 years. The failure to include extended date bits in directories means that whatever date your files were created in, they're assumed to be within eight years of the current date. Changing the date changes what the OS thinks the creation date is for a file. >>What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: >>.R TECO >>*^B==$$ >>16375 >> >>(12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 >>(1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 >>3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. >> >>You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) >>but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. > >No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, >1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. It's also a failure in OS/8. 12 bits gives you potentially 11 years of date range (4096 days at 365 days per year); the 14 bits they're using could have given almost 45 years of date range if DEC had decided to change the date format to be days since 1-jan-1970. It would have made sense given that the current format has so many problems (can't be compared using simple arithmetic, for example). >The problem is that OS/8 keeps two bits for the extension of the >years, while TECO compressed that into just one bit. Loss of >information follows. > >However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you >would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... True, there's not much that can be done given the data type. 13 bits packed just doesn't get you enough range. The TECO source doesn't say anything about this limitation, but it just ignores the high-order date bit: CTL.B, TAD I (7777 RTL RTL RAL /PUT EXTENDED DATE BIT IN LINK L7200, 7200 /CLA CDF 10 TAD I (7666 CDF 0 JMP I (NCOM -Rick From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 12 19:35:04 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:35:04 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FFF6D38.70902@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >>Jerome H. Fine writes: > >>I still use TECO, in this case V36 which was distributed with V05.00 of >>RT-11 in March 1983. DEC stopped distributing TECO after V05.00 >>of RT-11, but still supports using TECO. Does V40 of TECO have >>many additional features over V36? Is there a V40 of TECO available >>which will run under RT-11? >> >Sorry, didn't notice the second part before I answered the first part. > >AFAIK, V36 and V40 are not appreciably different in their handling of >^B on any OS. > >Here is a release notes file summarizing changes from V36 to V39: > > >Looks like there are more goodies here: > > > I will check those links ASAP! However, do you know which version of TECO you are using? I have not seen any version of TECO which runs under RT-11 beyond V36 which was released in 1980 with V04.00 of RT-11. So I would be surprised if the version you are using under RT-11 is V40 of TECO - IF as Ethan Dicks suggests you are using HP TEC files from V40 of TECO running on a PDP-11 under RT-11. That part I still do not quite understand. Could you please explain? At some point, I discovered the source files for V36, but when I linked them, there were at least a few differences in the TECO.SAV file which was generated when compared with the copy of V36 of TECO.SAV distributed with V04.00 of RT-11. I suspect that those sources could be modified to produce an identical TECO.SAV to the V36 released with V04.00 of RT-11, but I have never needed to modify TECO.SAV, so the incentive is not there. It would be an interesting challenge! That V04.00 distribution of RT-11 also included a moderate number of *.TEC files. However, I doubt that EMACS were included. On the other hand, I must admit that I have never used EMACS and do not even know what they do or where to find them. Does anyone have a short description on EMACS and a link to a more detailed description? The distribution of V04.00 of RT-11 is available at a number of sites including on classiccmp. By the way, I define version to mean a change in the actual code. Variant means a different operating system or for TECO a different environment such as a VT100 as opposed to a VT52 - although I doubt that TECO would care about different terminals, being a line editor. For example, DEC produced a number of versions of KED, each with different variants for the VT100, VT52 and VT62 in addition to variants of KED which would run under a Mapped Monitor under RT-11 and under RSTS/E. The latter variants were Ker.SAV, K5r.SAV and K6r.SAV is anyone is interested. Unfortunately, DEC limited the VT100 variants to supporting only 24 lines - which was reasonable at the time, but needed very few modifications in the data (and none in the actual code) to support more than 24 lines. Even the VT52 variant could have easily been modifies to support more than 24 lines, but I am VERY confident that NO one reading this response has ever even managed to test run K52.SAV in an environment which supports more than 24 lines, let alone have the need to do so on a continuing basis. In fact, I would be willing to BET that no one has ever tested a K52.SAV in that fashion! Is anyone willing to accept the challenge to be the first to test K52.SAV in a system which supports more than 24 lines? Is anyone willing to commit to changing the data within K52.SAV to support more than 24 lines? Of course, a TECO written for x86 systems would have to be a different version since the code must be different for the PDP-11 and an x86 environment - UNLESS OF COURSE the TECO.SAV file is running under RT-11 running on a PDP-11 running under an emulator on x86 hardware - which is what I have done almost every day for the past year. Specifically, I am using V36 of TECO.SAV from 1980 running under RT-11 which runs under Ersatz-11 on my Windows 98SE operating system on a Pentium III. About the only difference I note is that everything runs about 15 times the speed of a PDP-11/93. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 12 19:51:07 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:51:07 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <201207122353.q6CNr0e3024264@rickmurphy.net> References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> <201207122353.q6CNr0e3024264@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4FFF70FB.6010209@compsys.to> >Rick Murphy wrote: > >At 06:51 AM 7/12/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: >>> .R TECO >>> *^B==$$ >>> 16375 >>> >>> (12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 >>> (1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 >>> 3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. >>> >>> You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) >>> but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. >> >> No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, >> 1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. > > It's also a failure in OS/8. 12 bits gives you potentially 11 years of > date range (4096 days at 365 days per year); the 14 bits they're using > could have given almost 45 years of date range if DEC had decided to > change the date format to be days since 1-jan-1970. It would have made > sense given that the current format has so many problems (can't be > compared using simple arithmetic, for example). Ultimately, it was a failure in DEC to allow for the continued use of these operating systems under discussion for a large number of years. So while RT-11 was easily extended to support dates until 2099, some of the other operating systems which ran on 16 bit (or fewer) hardware systems had date support for a much shorter number of years. So pointing out the failures might be a first step. Fixing the code is the next step and I have yet to note any such proposal. Prior to 1990, it was easily justified at the time in almost all companies to support dates (and almost everything else) for as limited a time as the customer would accept for the next few years. So the attitude was not limited to DEC. Even today, there does not seem to be any interest by hobby users of RT-11 to supports dates after 2099 (on the basis that they will be dead in most cases), let alone any of the other PDP-11 operating systems. Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 13 00:24:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:24:54 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF6D38.70902@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> <4FFF6D38.70902@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFF6D38.70902 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > However, do you know which version of TECO you are using? I'm developing with TECOC from Tom Almy's page: > I have not seen any version of TECO which runs under RT-11 > beyond V36 which was released in 1980 with V04.00 of RT-11. There seems to be PDP-11 MACRO assembler source to V40 here: Although that's in an RSX folder, I don't think the MACRO source for TECO is different for the various operating systems, it just enables different chunks for different OSes. > That part I still do not quite understand. Could you > please explain? I asked on the SIMH list about PDP-11 configurations for running my retrocomputing challenge entry, but to be honest, the conversation was not particularly helpful. My challenge entry is described here: > At some point, I discovered the source files for V36, but when I > linked them, there were at least a few differences in the TECO.SAV > file which was generated when compared with the copy of V36 of > TECO.SAV distributed with V04.00 of RT-11. I suspect that those > sources could be modified to produce an identical TECO.SAV to > the V36 released with V04.00 of RT-11, but I have never needed > to modify TECO.SAV, so the incentive is not there. It would be > an interesting challenge! It's probably a matter of how it was configured, was WATCH mode enabled, etc. > That V04.00 distribution of RT-11 also included a moderate number > of *.TEC files. However, I doubt that EMACS were included. On > the other hand, I must admit that I have never used EMACS and do > not even know what they do or where to find them. The TECO EMACS was essentially a set of macros for TECO that gave you wysiwyg editing of text files. I'd like to see the .TEC files included with your distribution. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 00:48:17 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:48:17 -0700 Subject: potter pens. In-Reply-To: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > I just noticed this ad about space pens. Will the same cartridges fit on > the older plotter? > http://www.spacepen.com/ No From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Jul 13 04:17:24 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:17:24 +0200 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-13 07:25, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 06:51 AM 7/12/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >Right. But that is a limitation of the command decoder, and have very >> >little to do with any other part of OS/8 date handling. The date >> >encoding in OS/8 itself actually worked until 2002. > What you mean is that you can set the system date information to > correspond to dates as late as 2002 if you either do it by hand (ODT) > or with some other program. However, being able to set the date to > something in 2001 doesn't help you much, because nothing that I know of > that's shipped with the OS handles dates past 1999. (Note: I don't know > if any of the OS/78 or OS/278 kits did anything here.) Correct. The command decoder is not the only piece of software that can't handle dates beyond 1999, but the example you gave showed the specific limitation of the command decoder. But I never claimed that OS/8 was Y2K safe. I only pointed out that the internal representation of a date in OS/8 was in fact good until 2002. > For example, setting the date to 31-DEC-77 then setting the two > extended date bits on gives you: > .DATE > Monday December 31, 19 1 > > OK, that's still the Command Decoder. How about DIR? No, it's not the command decoder (as in the decoding and parsing of the command), but it's the date command output itself that do not handle dates beyond Y2K. > .DIR 2000.* > > 31-Dec-101 > > 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-101 > > 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks > > Looks like the date handling is pretty broken. Unless you're aware of > something that actually displays the right date for such things. No. It is broken. In this case DIRECT. I would suspect every utility that ever existed, more or less, in OS/8 to not handle dates beyond Y2K. But that could be fixed, and it's a separate issue from the date command accepting years beyond 1999 as input. Just for information, older versions of RSX, for example, have exactly the same bug. 2001 shows up as 101 in various places, even though RSX itself is actually good until the year 34667. In a way though, 101 is pretty logical. Program that displayed years as two digit numbers were actually often just showing an offset from the year 1900, and 2001 is, by that view, 101. But it's not pretty. Nor actually a correct display of the year. > Oh, and the other fun aspect: > .DATE 1-JAN-77 > > .DIR 2000.* > > 01-Jan-77 > > 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-77 > > 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks > > When you change the date, you might also be changing the creation dates > for files by one or more multiples of 8 years. Right. That is a known limitation that is documented. Dates on files do only cover a 8 year span, so they simply guess which 8-year span to apply to file dates. It was a "problem" already in 1978. > The failure to include extended date bits in directories means that > whatever date your files were created in, they're assumed to be within > eight years of the current date. Changing the date changes what the OS > thinks the creation date is for a file. Correct. >>> >>What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: >>> >>.R TECO >>> >>*^B==$$ >>> >>16375 >>> >> >>> >>(12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 >>> >>(1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 >>> >>3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. >>> >> >>> >>You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) >>> >>but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. >> > >> >No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, >> >1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. > It's also a failure in OS/8. 12 bits gives you potentially 11 years of > date range (4096 days at 365 days per year); the 14 bits they're using > could have given almost 45 years of date range if DEC had decided to > change the date format to be days since 1-jan-1970. It would have made > sense given that the current format has so many problems (can't be > compared using simple arithmetic, for example). This is a different issue, but sure. Different date formats could have made the system work for longer. There is actually no reason why you need to stuff all the information into just one 12-bit word either. But it's all a tradeoff between speed, space, and complexity. DEC chose initially to store the date in one 12-bit word, with different bitfields reserved for different parts of the date. Not super compact, but easy to deal with. It ran out of range in 1978, they did the simplest form of extension by reserving two more bits in another word in memory, while not doing anything at all about dates on files. That scheme in turn ran out in 2002, but I suspect DEC was happy enough with that, since at Y2K, a lot of other things would break anyway (as you showed above), so an extension of the date format that carried longer would not be very useful anyway without going through and fixing all other code there was, which is a lot, and which they didn't do. But the fact that TECO can't tell a date from beyond 1985 is not something you can blame OS/8 for anyway. TECO made its own choice on how to represent dates. Information in OS/8 gives you unique dates until 2001, but TECO does not. You can't possibly blame OS/8 for that. >> >The problem is that OS/8 keeps two bits for the extension of the >> >years, while TECO compressed that into just one bit. Loss of >> >information follows. >> > >> >However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you >> >would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... > True, there's not much that can be done given the data type. 13 bits > packed just doesn't get you enough range. > > The TECO source doesn't say anything about this limitation, but it just > ignores the high-order date bit: > > CTL.B, TAD I (7777 > RTL > RTL > RAL /PUT EXTENDED DATE BIT IN LINK > L7200, 7200 /CLA > CDF 10 > TAD I (7666 > CDF 0 > JMP I (NCOM Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. That's ugly of them. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jul 13 05:44:38 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 06:44:38 -0400 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> References: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4FFFFC16.1060402@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > [Snip] > Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. > A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. > That's ugly of them. What seems even more evident to me is that DEC took (as most other companies did as well) the attitude that even the internal representation of date and time was not important enough to allow the same information to be exchanged between operating systems on a consistent basis. It would seem that OS/8 supported dates starting with 1970. RT-11 supported dates starting with 1972 - although initial versions would not recognize dates until 1973. RSX-11 supported dates starting with 1900 (or 1901). I don't know about RSTS/E. VMS was somewhat better since I think it begins in the 1800's I think that DOS started in 1980 as one other dumb example. It would have taken ONLY a doubling of the date and time internal representation to start with to support dates starting at least in 1582 when the Common Era (aka Gregorian) Calendar has its base. That would have allowed most dates prior to any current event to be noted using the same internal standard. For OS/8, that would probably have required two 12 bit words rather than one - with perhaps one word alone used for the year to provide a range of 4096 years and probably many more years if the other word with the months and days (or number of days in a year) held some bits for a larger year range. The date and time software would have never broken at Y2K since the software would have been able to manage the first 400 years cycle successfully (1582 to 1982) for which there is an exact multiple of everything since there are only 97 leap years over a 400 year period (1700, 1800 and 1900 are NOT leap years - a century year must be divisible by 400 to be a leap year) giving a total of 146097 days in 400 years which is exactly 20871 weeks. By allowing incompatible data within different operating systems, DEC management, in Ken Olsen and the board, displayed an astonishing lack of foresight, at least in my opinion. So when the observation is made that a specific operating system (or even just a program) was broken, it seems that the source of the problem was upper management, not the programmers. Otherwise, the same broken software would not have existed across all of the operating systems across all of the companies. But all of that is history now or is it? Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:19:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:19:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <20120712112648.F86809@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 12, 12 11:30:49 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and GTP293-1 > > cards in it. Perhaps your card is from a proprietary expansion bus in this > > plotter? > > I don't know anything about their product line. But, as a nostalgic old One of the most common file formats for PCB production is known as a 'Gerber file'[1] I assume this was originally data to be sent to a photoplotter or similar made by said compent. [1] for some unknown reason, engineers often corrupt that to 'gerbil file' ;-) > fart, . . . I did a little time at GSFC SSDC (Bldg 26) on "the > etch-a-sketch" - A Gerber Data Digitizer that consisted of a light board > about 2 feet square, with two big knobs to turn to move cross-hairs. > When you had them where you wanted, you hit a foot-pedal and an 026 punch > next to it punched two three digit numbers for the coordinates. Soounds...fun. Incidentally, about your comment on a teach who thoguth $\pi$ was exactly 22/7. The preface for a book called 'Foundations of Wireless' (I am lookign at the 3rd edition, 1943 reprint). contains the following : 'In particular "$\pi$" (read as "pi") is always used for the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter; it is mentioend here because its meaning is almost always taken for granted. The corresponding numerical value is 3.1416 approximately (the decimal never ends), or about 22/7" Yor teacher should have read said book :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:26:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: from "Dan Gahlinger" at Jul 12, 12 10:41:39 pm Message-ID: > > > Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? Groan! Paradox : Two people with Ph.Ds Paradox : Like a pair of chickens, but they swim. Paradox : Two sets of manuals. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 21:07:28 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs Message-ID: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 10:43:03 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:43:03 -0700 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> On 7/12/12 7:07 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? > > FYI, I have the following versions scanned, but not postprocessed 3.0 3.5 4.0 Engine 2.0 From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jul 13 12:55:20 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Wadoco) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:55:20 +0200 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> An imaged rl02 containing rt-11 5.7 distribution disk generated a bit of an odd message after booting in in simh (v3.81). It came with the following output : sim> att rl0 rt11_V5.7.dsk sim> boot rl0 RT-11FB V05.07 .TYPE V5USER.TXT RT-11 V5.7 Installation of RT-11 Version 5.7 is complete and you are now running RT-11 from your system volume. Your system volume is your working volume if you have used the Automatic Installation (AI) procedure. If you have installed RT-11 using that procedure, Mentec recommends you verify the correct operation of your system's software using the VERIFY verification procedure. You can only perform VERIFY on the valid target (output) media you used for the AI procedure. Run VERIFY before you run CONFIG. To run VERIFY, enter the command: IND VERIFY You should read the file V5NOTE.TXT, which you can TYPE or PRINT. Also, read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. .R MSCPCK ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 . ======= Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? Ed From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 13:40:49 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:40:49 -0700 Subject: RL01/RL02 simulator Message-ID: <50006BB1.2080002@bitsavers.org> FYI http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html From lists at loomcom.com Fri Jul 13 15:10:24 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:10:24 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800 Kit - Paging Grant Stockly Message-ID: <20120713201024.GA21108@mail.loomcom.com> Has anyone heard from Grant Stockly recently? The Altair Kit forums have fallen into the hands of spammers, and I haven't been able to reach him through email. He announced a new sale of kits in early June, but I didn't find out about it until last week. I was hoping to get in on it. -Seth From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 18:24:05 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:24:05 -0500 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: do u have a tk50 tape drive? On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Wadoco wrote: > > An imaged rl02 containing rt-11 5.7 distribution disk > generated a bit of an odd message after booting in in simh (v3.81). > > It came with the following output : > > sim> att rl0 rt11_V5.7.dsk > sim> boot rl0 > > RT-11FB V05.07 > > RT-11 V5.7 > > Installation of RT-11 Version 5.7 is complete and you are now > running > RT-11 from your system volume. > > Your system volume is your working volume if you have used the > Automatic > Installation (AI) procedure. If you have installed RT-11 using > that > procedure, Mentec recommends you verify the correct operation of > your > system's software using the VERIFY verification procedure. You can > only > perform VERIFY on the valid target (output) media you used for the > AI > procedure. Run VERIFY before you run CONFIG. To run VERIFY, enter > the > command: > IND VERIFY > > You should read the file V5NOTE.TXT, which you can TYPE or PRINT. > Also, > read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which > contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. > > > .R MSCPCK > ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 > ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 > > . > > ======= > > Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? > and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? > > Ed > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 19:49:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:49:20 -0700 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings Message-ID: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB goodness inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging electrolytic. It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not 50V, but 40V. I'm going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units paralleled as a substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows why the strange values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances are common on electrolytic caps. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Jul 13 20:38:52 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 03:38:52 +0200 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5000CDAC.3000302@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-13 19:00, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >[Snip] >> >Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. >> >A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. >> >That's ugly of them. > What seems even more evident to me is that DEC took > (as most other companies did as well) the attitude that > even the internal representation of date and time was > not important enough to allow the same information to > be exchanged between operating systems on a consistent > basis. Sorry, but I fail to see the point. The internal representation of a date will almost by necessity be different between different OSes and hardware. Having a bunch of 16 bit values represent a date on a PDP-8 would be incredibly stupid and difficult, not to mention that OS/8 have no concept of time to more detail than a day. And even that needs to be updated manually every day. So, ignoring the internal format, which can't really be portable anyway, you then get to representation. There will always be dates that cannot be represented in whatever format you choose. So what is the point of bringing up that argument? It is nice if the dates that you might reasonably expect to be processes be possible to express on the system. As for communicating with other systems, in the communication I would suspect/expect that you use an intermediate format (a nice text string for example) that both agree on. And then you can convert from the internal format to and from this intermediate format, as long as the date is within a range expressable on that system. When you go outside the date range for the system, you can either try to do something reasonable, or give an error. I think that is a choice that is best left to the writers of the code to decide on a case by case basis. By the way, Unix express time as a number of seconds since Jan 1, 1970, 00:00 UTC. And time is horribly complex. You know that even if we keep it fairly modern, different countries switched from Julian dates to Gregorian dates at different times, the last being Russia, in the early 20th century. If you really think that you can come up with a reasonable, portable design, that is "universal", I think I know of a few organizations that would like to hear from you. Until then, I'm pretty much satisfied with things the way they already are. Yes, OS/8 have been broken for 10 years now. But to fix it require more than just changing the internal storage for the date. RSX got fixed, and depending on which bits you look, it might stop working right 2070(?), 2099, 2155 or 34667. I don't know about RT-11, but I do know that RT-11 is totally separate from RSX, and any problems are not shared, but unique. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 13 23:19:13 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 21:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800 Kit - Paging Grant Stockly In-Reply-To: <20120713201024.GA21108@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120713201024.GA21108@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jul 2012, Seth Morabito wrote: > Has anyone heard from Grant Stockly recently? The Altair Kit forums have > fallen into the hands of spammers, and I haven't been able to reach him > through email. He announced a new sale of kits in early June, but I > didn't find out about it until last week. I was hoping to get in on > it. I just now spoke with him on the phone. He's been busy with a bunch of stuff including business and kids. I let him know about this post and he said he'd post something when he gets home. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jul 14 00:34:06 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 00:34:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated > HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB > goodness inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging > electrolytic. It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not > 50V, but 40V. I'm going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units > paralleled as a substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows > why the strange values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances > are common on electrolytic caps. The 940uF 40V capacitor just dates to before we had the modern preferred values system. If it is just a filter capacitor, a 1000uF 50V should work just fine, and would likely be more reliable (and have less leakage) than two smaller capacitors in parallel. I replace odd value capacitors all the time in older SMPSUs and as long as the values are close, substitutions are generally not a problem. The hard part I've found is finding modern parts with the same lead spacing. Sometimes you have to go up a case size and/or voltage rating to find an electrolytic that will fit the existing location without putting excessive bends in their leads. This is especially true with old 3-lead "computer grade" capacitors (typically two ground leads). From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 04:14:57 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:14:57 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 Message-ID: I have the power supply tested and reassembled and am ready to power up the 11/04. I am looking to limit the number of installed boards initially. Certainly the RK05 controller boards can go as I haven't got the drives operational yet. The configuration of the 11/04 as I received it is as follows (hopefully this is readable): M7257 M7257 M9302 M7256 M7256 - M7255 M7255 - M7254 M7254 M920 M7258 M7258 M920 M7856 M7856 - M7860 M7860 - GRANT M9202 GRANT M9202 M7856 M7856 M7850 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 M7859 M7859 M9301 GRANT M7263 M7263 M7263 Looking for some guidance if the following is a valid configuration: GRANT M9302 M7856 M7856 M7850 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 M7859 M7859 M9301 GRANT M7263 M7263 M7263 I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I have read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I think it is saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the M9301 and the console emulator commands will be available on the terminal... which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this machine. Am I understanding that right. Thanks everyone for your help. Regards Andrew From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 14 15:10:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Jul 14, 12 00:34:06 am Message-ID: > The 940uF 40V capacitor just dates to before we had the modern preferred > values system. If it is just a filter capacitor, a 1000uF 50V should work I don't think that;s the whole story, for several reasons : The old preferrd values, at least in the UK, were a cobling series (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 uF) and decades multiples therefor. (for example, 640uF was a common Philips one). The HP values have no particualr pattern There are hP boards with (offiical, as documented in the service manual) odd-vlaue capactiors which are close in value, like 5600uF and 6000uF I have a schematic here for the HP9826/9836, from the 1980s. The colour monitor PSU (for the 9836C)( has a 900uF smoothing caapcitor on the input to the 12 regulator (C22), not 1000uF. The main smoothing capacitor in the computer is 21000uF, not 22000uF. This machine was designed and sold long after the adoption of 'modern' preferred values. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 14 15:02:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:02:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 13, 12 05:49:20 pm Message-ID: > > I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated > HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB > goodness inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging > electrolytic. It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not > 50V, but 40V. I'm going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units > paralleled as a substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows > why the strange values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances > are common on electrolytic caps. I'e wondersd about this before (I may even have posted about it). I can;'t see any electrical rason why they would use such capacitors. I've seen a PSU board where the smoothing capacitors for the inputs to various regulators were a mix of (I think( 5600uF and 6000uF, again +/-20% (at least). Why theey didn't specify and ft al lthe same type is beyond me. I hae no idea what the 1000uF capacitor in your counter is for, but I'll guess it's i nthe PSU. I would be _very_ suprised if a 1000uF didn't work correctly there too. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Jul 14 05:00:20 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:00:20 +0200 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20120714100020.GA9600@beast.freibergnet.de> One has simple to comment out the .R MSCPCK Line in strtfb.com. Regards, Holm Adrian Stoness wrote: > do u have a tk50 tape drive? > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Wadoco wrote: > > > > > An imaged rl02 containing rt-11 5.7 distribution disk > > generated a bit of an odd message after booting in in simh (v3.81). > > > > It came with the following output : > > > > sim> att rl0 rt11_V5.7.dsk > > sim> boot rl0 > > > > RT-11FB V05.07 > > > > RT-11 V5.7 > > > > Installation of RT-11 Version 5.7 is complete and you are now > > running > > RT-11 from your system volume. > > > > Your system volume is your working volume if you have used the > > Automatic > > Installation (AI) procedure. If you have installed RT-11 using > > that > > procedure, Mentec recommends you verify the correct operation of > > your > > system's software using the VERIFY verification procedure. You can > > only > > perform VERIFY on the valid target (output) media you used for the > > AI > > procedure. Run VERIFY before you run CONFIG. To run VERIFY, enter > > the > > command: > > IND VERIFY > > > > You should read the file V5NOTE.TXT, which you can TYPE or PRINT. > > Also, > > read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which > > contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. > > > > > > .R MSCPCK > > ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 > > ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 > > > > . > > > > ======= > > > > Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? > > and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? > > > > Ed > > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 08:10:51 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 09:10:51 -0400 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The 940uF 40V capacitor just dates to before we had the modern preferred > values system. No. The preferred values system dates back to the 1930s in the US. -- Will From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Jul 14 08:31:41 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 09:31:41 -0400 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> References: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761@rickmurphy.net> At 05:17 AM 7/13/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. >A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. >That's ugly of them. You're quite correct. Clearly this *is* a TECO-8 bug - I thought it was at least following the docs but they're just ignoring the high-order date bit. Unfortunately, fixing this (as in making it compliant with the documentation) isn't easy as that page is full. And "fixing" it would just give different wrong values since you can't squash 14 bits into 13. Mea culpa. TECO Fail, indeed. -Rick From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jul 14 09:04:03 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:04:03 -0400 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50017C53.2020001@verizon.net> On 07/13/2012 07:24 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > do u have a tk50 tape drive? > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Wadoco wrote: > > read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which > contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. > > > .R MSCPCK > ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 > ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 > > . > > ======= > > Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? > and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? > > Ed > It's a mismatch between the driver and the device for revision level. While it can be fixed in simh it could also be an OS issue. Also the first message is -I- meaning informational, the second is a -W- or warning suggesting there may be issues. there was no fail -F- so it will operate but there may be issues around TK50 tape. Allison From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jul 14 09:28:52 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:28:52 +0200 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: <50017C53.2020001@verizon.net> References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <50017C53.2020001@verizon.net> Message-ID: > On 07/13/2012 07:24 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> do u have a tk50 tape drive? >> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Wadoco wrote: >> >> read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which >> contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. >> >> >> .R MSCPCK >> ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 >> ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 >> >> . >> >> ======= >> >> Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? >> and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? >> >> Ed >> > It's a mismatch between the driver and the device for revision level. > While it can be fixed in simh it could also be an OS issue. > > Also the first message is -I- meaning informational, the second is a > -W- or warning suggesting there may be issues. there was no fail -F- > so it will operate but there may be issues around TK50 tape. > > Allison Thanks Allison & Others. First of all I did not disable any device in simh, hence the message. Of course, after disabling the unwanted drivers, it did not report the message anymore. I'll have a look at the emulated code and add/change the 'revision' levels. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jul 14 11:09:54 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 11:09:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2012, William Donzelli wrote: >> The 940uF 40V capacitor just dates to before we had the modern preferred >> values system. > > No. The preferred values system dates back to the 1930s in the US. Are you sure about that? I thought with /electrolytics/ it was the 70s? I've seen these "odd value" electrolytics in gear which was made up through the early 80s (using old stock parts). From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 12:21:18 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:21:18 -0700 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <5001481E.24308.34D033@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2012 at 0:34, Tothwolf wrote: > I replace odd value capacitors all the time in older SMPSUs and as > long as the values are close, substitutions are generally not a > problem. The hard part I've found is finding modern parts with the > same lead spacing. Sometimes you have to go up a case size and/or > voltage rating to find an electrolytic that will fit the existing > location without putting excessive bends in their leads. This is > especially true with old 3-lead "computer grade" capacitors (typically > two ground leads). My error--it's a 950 uF cap, not 940 and it still is 40 VDC. Fortunately, it's an axial-lead cap, so replacement with a physically smaller size won't be an issue. It seems to be a filter cap on the +22 supply line, so it's not critical as regards timing. But the odd value had me wondering--I've been placing 1000 uF filter caps virtually since there were transistors. I'd never seen a 950 uF before. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 12:38:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 13:38:30 -0400 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Are you sure about that? > I thought with /electrolytics/ it was the 70s? I've > seen these "odd value" electrolytics in gear which was made up through the > early 80s (using old stock parts). No one said the manufactures needed to stick to the standard, and with a giant like HP, values could be tweaked while working with the cap makers. -- Will From pinball at telus.net Sat Jul 14 13:35:12 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 11:35:12 -0700 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5001BBE0.6020903@telus.net> Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated >> HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB >> goodness inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging >> electrolytic. It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not >> 50V, but 40V. I'm going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units >> paralleled as a substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows >> why the strange values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances >> are common on electrolytic caps. > > The 940uF 40V capacitor just dates to before we had the modern > preferred values system. If it is just a filter capacitor, a 1000uF > 50V should work just fine, and would likely be more reliable (and have > less leakage) than two smaller capacitors in parallel. > > I replace odd value capacitors all the time in older SMPSUs and as > long as the values are close, substitutions are generally not a > problem. The hard part I've found is finding modern parts with the > same lead spacing. Sometimes you have to go up a case size and/or > voltage rating to find an electrolytic that will fit the existing > location without putting excessive bends in their leads. This is > especially true with old 3-lead "computer grade" capacitors (typically > two ground leads). > If you are replacing capacitors in switching power supplies you must use replacement caps that are high frequency and (usually, but no always) low ESR. Same goes with recapping monitors - the caps on the B+ lines all care a lot about high frequency response (heat factor) and the caps in the horizontal circuit are also usually fussy. We use (after some research which variety is needed for the specific application) the Panasonic caps from Digi-Key or Mouser rather than buying them from the corner supplier as generic caps just don't cut it in a great many applications. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 15:13:00 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 22:13:00 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: <6178c91a1bdd214f9e34d70b4a8fd3cd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6178c91a1bdd214f9e34d70b4a8fd3cd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:09 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. > > I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything > at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation > duplicate or just a backup of some system. > > Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid > (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) All right, I got the tape today (thanks Ed and Sander). It's labeled "DEC VMS 2.5", and it seems to be in very good condition. I pulled out a little tape and checked the bit until the BOT hole. No stickiness or other problems. Loaded it in one of my TK-50 certified TZ87-TA's (which I tend to keep very clean and well maintained) and dumped the tape to an image. No problems whatsoever. Unfortunately, the tape does not contain an old version of VAX VMS, but version 2.5 of the QMS network printer driver symbiont (QMSSMBPSE025.A) If this is of interest to anyone, let me know and I'll send you the tape image (in SIMH format). Camiel. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jul 14 15:55:44 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:55:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: <5001481E.24308.34D033@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com>, <5001481E.24308.34D033@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Jul 2012 at 0:34, Tothwolf wrote: > >> I replace odd value capacitors all the time in older SMPSUs and as >> long as the values are close, substitutions are generally not a >> problem. The hard part I've found is finding modern parts with the >> same lead spacing. Sometimes you have to go up a case size and/or >> voltage rating to find an electrolytic that will fit the existing >> location without putting excessive bends in their leads. This is >> especially true with old 3-lead "computer grade" capacitors (typically >> two ground leads). > > My error--it's a 950 uF cap, not 940 and it still is 40 VDC. > Fortunately, it's an axial-lead cap, so replacement with a physically > smaller size won't be an issue. > > It seems to be a filter cap on the +22 supply line, so it's not > critical as regards timing. But the odd value had me wondering--I've > been placing 1000 uF filter caps virtually since there were > transistors. I'd never seen a 950 uF before. Who's the maker of the original cap? I'm curious now given what Will mentioned if it might very well have been a custom made part for HP. I think I've actually seen 950uF before but I can't remember where. Capacitors with axial leads have been getting harder and harder to find, and when you can actually find them, they tend to be so much more expensive than an equivalent radial too. If all you need is an 85C rated part, I think Nichicon still has them in their VX series. According to my Nichicon book, the P/N for a VX series 1000uF 50V in a 16x31.5mm case would be TVX1H102MCD. I don't know of anyone who currently makes an axial leaded 105C rated part though, which is what I generally prefer for radials in SMPSU rebuilds. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 15 15:51:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at Jul 14, 12 09:14:57 pm Message-ID: > I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I Basiclaly, the M9301 contains a small amount of ROM containing a PDP11 machine code program to provide the ocnsole emulator and device bootstraps. The PDP11/04 CPU on its own will not talk to a terminal at power-up, it'll just execute machine instructions. Of course, if said intructions are a program that acesses the terminal port then the system talks to the terminal. And that's what happens here. > have read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I think > it is saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the M9301 > and the console emulator commands will be available on the terminal... > which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this > machine. Am I understanding that right. It'll display the output and take the conoslue emulator commands from a terminal (conented to a DL11-something-or-other card) at the standard console terminal address, which IIRC is octal 777560 yo 777566. Note that hardware addresses are 18 bits lont (even on a machine without an MMU) and that word addresses are always even. The DL11 port takes up 4 word addresss, for thee receive control/status register (CSR, it's a term you'll come across time and again), the receive data register, the transmit CSR and the transmit data register. Progrm adresses, are, of course, always 16 bits long. On a machine with out an MMU (like the 11/04), program addresses 000000 to 157777 are left unchanged (The extra 2 bits for the 18 bit address are set to 0), while 160000 to 177777 are converted to 760000 to 777777 The latter range of addresses (4K words) are gernally used for I/O devices, not memory. Now, the M7856 is certainyl a possible terminal itnerfce card for this, but the address can be set by DIP swithces on said board, so it's not certain that' sthe right one. It wuld be perverse in the extreme _not_ to have a DL11 at the normal conosle terminal address, but if you get noting on the connected terminal, checkign the address would not be a bad idea -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 15 15:55:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:55:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: <5001851E.27733.1231824@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 14, 12 02:41:34 pm Message-ID: > > On 14 Jul 2012 at 15:55, Tothwolf wrote: > > > Who's the maker of the original cap? I'm curious now given what Will > > mentioned if it might very well have been a custom made part for HP. I > > think I've actually seen 950uF before but I can't remember where. > > It's a Mallory; part number 0180 2357-1, date 9-73. 0180-2357 ia the right format for an HP part number. This means it might be a custom part, or just that it's been custom-labelled. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Jul 14 16:00:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:00:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated >> HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB goodness >> inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging electrolytic. >> It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not 50V, but 40V. I'm >> going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units paralleled as a >> substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows why the strange >> values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances are common on >> electrolytic caps. > > > I'e wondersd about this before (I may even have posted about it). I > can;'t see any electrical rason why they would use such capacitors. I've > seen a PSU board where the smoothing capacitors for the inputs to > various regulators were a mix of (I think( 5600uF and 6000uF, again > +/-20% (at least). Why theey didn't specify and ft al lthe same type is > beyond me. Maybe in large volume it resulted in a cost savings with a very tiny cost savings per unit for them to use a capacitor with slightly less aluminum in it? From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jul 14 16:31:59 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:31:59 -0700 Subject: Cattle Call for extras for Jobs Movie Message-ID: <5001E54F.7020505@jwsss.com> link here http://www.beinamovie.com/movie.php?mtitleid=115 for Monday and Tuesday 7/16 and 7/17 in Pasadena. I didn't send earlier notes for this movie, but figured that this note would be of slight interest to anyone who could make it. The scenes we're part of will be the 1983 PC Conference (Monday the 16th) and the 1977 Computer Jobs Faire (Tuesday the 17th) Maybe some here were at those conferences, and won't barf at the thought of being in a movie about Jobs. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 14 16:35:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:35:19 -0600 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: <201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761@rickmurphy.net> References: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> <201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: In article <201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761 at rickmurphy.net>, Rick Murphy writes: > You're quite correct. Clearly this *is* a TECO-8 bug [...] What version of TECO-8 are you using? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 16:41:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:41:34 -0700 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com>, <5001481E.24308.34D033@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <5001851E.27733.1231824@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2012 at 15:55, Tothwolf wrote: > Who's the maker of the original cap? I'm curious now given what Will > mentioned if it might very well have been a custom made part for HP. I > think I've actually seen 950uF before but I can't remember where. It's a Mallory; part number 0180 2357-1, date 9-73. It's one of the few capacitors on the PSU board that actually has a namufacturer's name on it--the others do not, although they appear to be Sprague "Vitamin Q" models by their construction. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Jul 14 16:45:49 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 23:45:49 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-14 16:04, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 26 > Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 09:31:41 -0400 > From: Rick Murphy > To:cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) > Message-ID:<201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761 at rickmurphy.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 05:17 AM 7/13/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. >> >A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. >> >That's ugly of them. > You're quite correct. Clearly this*is* a TECO-8 bug - I thought it was > at least following the docs but they're just ignoring the high-order > date bit. Unfortunately, fixing this (as in making it compliant with > the documentation) isn't easy as that page is full. And "fixing" it > would just give different wrong values since you can't squash 14 bits > into 13. > > Mea culpa. TECO Fail, indeed. Yeah... I tried to figure out a fix to atleast do what the doc says, but I end up using one more word than the current code. :-( Hmm, possibly I can get away with it, if there is a free location, or a constant 0060 on the current page, or page zero already, and the link is already clear at entrance of the routine... But it's hacky. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Jul 14 16:55:04 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:55:04 -0400 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: References: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> <201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201207142155.q6ELt3VC026092@rickmurphy.net> At 05:35 PM 7/14/2012, Richard wrote: >In article <201207141331.q6EDVgHs011761 at rickmurphy.net>, > Rick Murphy writes: > > > You're quite correct. Clearly this *is* a TECO-8 bug [...] > >What version of TECO-8 are you using? TECO-8 Version 7, which roughly corresponds to TECO-11 V40 and is what the "Standard TECO" manual talks about when referring to TECO-8. It's the version written in MACREL versus PAL. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 14 17:21:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:21:42 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: In article <4FFEAC19.2080507 at update.uu.se>, Johnny Billquist writes: > However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you > would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... I'm not sure why you think TECO has 13-bit integers on a 12-bit machine... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Jul 14 20:21:15 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:21:15 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201207150121.q6F1LRQD031755@rickmurphy.net> At 06:21 PM 7/14/2012, Richard wrote: >In article <4FFEAC19.2080507 at update.uu.se>, > Johnny Billquist writes: > > > However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you > > would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... > >I'm not sure why you think TECO has 13-bit integers on a 12-bit >machine... I'm not sure why you don't think it does. The fact is that TECO-8 does 13-bit math. It's a PDP-8, after all - combining the AC with the link bit gives you 13 bits. TECO-8 retains the full AC and Link for Q-register numeric values and numeric operations. That's why you can get a return value from ^B that's basically 4096 added to the 12-bit date word. How are you going to add 4096 to a 12-bit value and make a difference? Or, I can quote from the DEC documentation [1]: H.16 Arithmetic Precision TECO-8 performs 13-bit arithmetic except that multiplication and division by negative numbers gives unpredictable results. All numbers stored in Q-registers are 13 bits long. Numbers stored in flags (such as ET, EU, etc.) are only 12-bits long. When storing a number into a flag, the high order (sign bit) is lost. When using the value of a flag in an arithmetic expression, the 12-bit value is sign extended first. [1] http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/teco.pdf (It's good to see credit for the TECO-32 creator in this document.) -Rick From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 06:23:38 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:23:38 +0200 Subject: Dilog and ACT UNIBUS module identification Message-ID: I can't find anything on these two UNIBUS modules: - ACT 10197-0 - DILOG 153078 Any clues? From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Jul 15 06:23:50 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 07:23:50 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> At 06:12 AM 7/15/2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rick Murphy wrote: >>(For anyone who really cares about TECO-8, I've got a version that >>works well with ANSI terminals, including PuTTY.) > >Does that include a VT100? > >Will it also work on ANSI terminals with more than 24 lines and / or >132 columns? Yes, VT100. Since it's basically the VT52 support ANSI-fied it'll work on any VTxxx terminal. Unfortunately, only 80x24. It would be very difficult to expand that due to the memory requirement for a larger screen buffer. -Rick From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Jul 14 20:36:16 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:36:16 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> At 05:45 PM 7/14/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >Yeah... I tried to figure out a fix to atleast do what the doc says, >but I end up using one more word than the current code. :-( >Hmm, possibly I can get away with it, if there is a free location, or >a constant 0060 on the current page, or page zero already, and the >link is already clear at entrance of the routine... But it's hacky. There's one location free on that page, so you can make a simple fix. (That's fortunate, given that using page zero hacks doesn't work well since the code in question is in an overlay that gets relocated to different memory fields based on system memory capacity. More memory means that less overlay swapping is required.) Oh, and you can't assume AC and L input to the routine. The "simple" fix doesn't much help the problem as you just change the incorrect representations to different year spans. Seems to me to be a waste of time. (For anyone who really cares about TECO-8, I've got a version that works well with ANSI terminals, including PuTTY.) -Rick From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jul 14 23:29:48 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 06:29:48 +0200 Subject: Strange behavior in the RICM PDP-8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5002473C.2040108@hachti.de> Hm.... > At this point we really don't know what is causing this behavior, so > any ideas would be helpful. Have you found and fixed the problem in the meantime? Here a few stupid ideas. Did you swap the core as well? I could imagine a timing issue. It *might* be possible that some timing is slightly wrong globally and that little (and normal) deviations of the core stack's properties begin to show. Did the CPU correcly execute the IAC? Is only IAC affected? Or any other instruction at xx00? Try something like 0075: ISZ 0050 ; just to have the CPU running "a while" before doint the test 0076: JMP .-1 0077: CLA 0100: IAC 0100: HLT and look for the AC value. Try different instructions if you haven't already done. Isn't there a "manual timing generator" involved? I just don't have the schematics handy, but isn't manual cycle timing generated differently than running cycle timing? My first bet is still timing problem. Kind regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jul 14 23:40:04 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 06:40:04 +0200 Subject: potter pens. In-Reply-To: References: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <500249A4.5040705@hachti.de> In have Fisher Space Pen mines for the Calcomp 565/563... Calcomp and Fisher labeled. What means "the older plotter" for you? Am 13.07.2012 07:48, schrieb dwight elvey: > > >> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca >> >> I just noticed this ad about space pens. Will the same cartridges fit on >> the older plotter? >> http://www.spacepen.com/ > > No > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 15 01:50:04 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 00:50:04 -0600 Subject: HTTP date header in TECO Message-ID: OK, here's what I believe is a correct macro for inserting the current date and time as an HTTP Date header, portable across different TECO environments as best I can make it. I tried to login to the TOPS-10 machine at pdpplanet, but encountered difficulties. Therefore, I have only tested this end-to-end on a Win32 environment where I'm running TECOC. I started with DATE.TES in the TECOC distribution and changed things around to try and make it as small as possible when squished. Right now I'm at 1,109 bytes of squished TECO. I could squeeze out 33 more bytes if I change the code that builds up a string containing the days within a month by replacing the 31 at I// commands with an insert using literal control characters but I'm trying to keep my source file free of control characters, with a small concession for ESC characters. If others are willing to try this on their TECOs and tell me the results, that would be great. The environments that are different from my test environment are: PDP-8, OS/8 Different date, time encoding PDP-11, RT-11 Different date encoding PDP-11, RSTS/E Different date, time encoding TOPS-10 Different date, time encoding TOPS-20 Different date, time encoding If you're not in my time zone (Salt Lake City, -0600 from GMT), you will want to change -0600 in the macro to the appropriate offset. Some observations from doing this little sub exercise: - nQq extracts the nth character code from the string portion of Q-register q. Using another Q-register as the numeric argument to this command confused the parser of my TECO, hence the use of an intermediate Q-register by doing 'Q0QM U1'. It didn't uniformly confuse my TECO, so there were some cases where I could use QqQq directly in some expressions. This might cause a portability issue for other TECOs. - I could make this macro much shorter if I hard-coded the date and time decoding for a particular OS. - I could make this macro much shorter if I hard-coded the time zone offset from GMT, or even just lied and pretended my web server's local time *was* GMT. - Indexing the string %SunMonTueWedThuFriSatSun% and inserting 3 chars was much less code than doing a comparison for each value. - Extracting repeated code into a macro was most effective in reducing squished size. - The string portion of a Q-register can be viewed as an array of bytes; I use this to build an array of days in each month. This reduced the size of code computing day-in-a-year from day/month and day/month from day-in-a-year. The array is also used to handle underflow and overflow when applying the GMT offset. - I made the labels reasonably small in order to squeeze out more bytes, but since I don't use more than 96 labels, I could have reduced them to a single character. I decided against this. - SQU.TEC will recursively squish my macro definitions, but I kept running into a problem with the day and month strings I was loading into 1.str until I re-read the SQU.TES source and learned that if I use % as the delimiter, then SQU will not treat these Q-register string loads as macro definitions, but as literal text. - Computed goto @O!tag0,tag1,tag2! made it easier to handle decoding the different date/time formats in different environments. - You can't insert or append character codes directly into a Q-register, but you can insert character codes into the buffer and pull a portion of the buffer into a Q-register. - DATE.TES reports the wrong day of the week, probably because it uses an algorithm that is no longer valid for years > 1999. I switched to the Sakamoto, Lachman, Keith and Craver algorithm published in Wikipedia. This also eliminated me having to compute day-within-year. - n%q can be used to add n to Q-register q, avoiding the Qq + n Uq phrase, but n%q leaves the result as a numeric argument to the next command, so ESCs must be inserted to gobble these up. - TECO numeric expressions have no operator precedence and are evaluated strictly left to right. Sometimes this means that extra parenthesis are necessary to get the right evaluation order and other times parenthesis can be omitted and still retain the proper evaluation order. Squished output, made printable: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= !HTTP-DATE.TEC![M[D[Y[H[N[S[0[1@^UY\0J31I$QY&3"=29I$|28I$'31I$30I$31I$30I$31 I$31I$30I$31I$30I$31I$0XM0K\@^US\U1Q1*3U13\@^U0/U0Q0-10"Q1UD1%M$'1%0$>|ODG$'''OD$!D8!Q0&7 +2010UYMYQ0/8&31UDQ0/256&15UMOD$!DT!Q0-(Q0/31*31)+1UDQ0/32U0Q0-(Q0/12*12)+1 UMQ0/12+1964UYMYOD$!DG!Q0&31UDQ0/32&15UMQ0/512+1900UYMY!D!-1EJ/256 OT1,T8,TT$^H*2U0OTG$!T8!12UH00UN00USOO$!T1!-1EJ-4"=(24*60-^H)*60U0OTG$'^H*2U0 OTG$!TT!^H*60U0!TG!Q0/3600UHQH*3600U1(Q0-Q1)/60UNQ0-Q1-(QN*60)US!O!-600U0Q0 "<-Q0U1Q1-(Q1/100*100)%N$QN-59">1%H$-60%N$'Q1/100%H$QH-23">1%D$-24%H$QM-1QMU1 QD-Q1">1%M$1UDQM-12">1%Y$MY1UM'''|-Q0+(Q0/100*100)%N$QN"<-1%H$60%N$'-Q0/100 %H$QH"<-1%D$24%H$QD"=-1%M$QM"=-1%Y$MY12UM31UD|QM-1QMUD''''IDate: $ ^U1SunMonTueWedThuFriSat$QYU0QDU1QM-3">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ! ! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ! ! S.str = macro to insert 3 chars from 1.str ! @^US\ U1 ! 1.num = 0-based word index ! Q1*3 U1 ! 1.num = char offset in 1.str ! 3< ! for 3 chars... ! Q1Q1 @I"" ! insert one char ! 1 %1$ ! 1.num++ ! > ! end ! \ ! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ! ! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ! ! 0.str = macro to insert two digit number, with leading zero ! @^U0/ U0 ! 0.num = arg ! Q0 - 10"< ! if 0.num < 10? ! @I"0" ! insert zero ! ' ! end if ! Q0\ ! insert 0.num ! / ! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ! ^B U0 ! 0.num = encoded date ! -1EJ/256 @O!D1,D8,DT! ! handle special date decodings ! @O!DG! ! handle general date decoding ! !D1! Q1 - 7 "= ! RT-11? ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! RT-11: ^B = ((((year-2003)*16+month)*32)+day)*32)+(year-1972)&31 ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Q0 "< ! if high bit set? ! Q0&32767 U0 ! strip high bit ! 64 UY ! Y.num = corresponding year ! | ! else ! 0 UY ! Y.num = 0 ! ' ! end if ! (Q0/16384*32) + (Q0&31) + 1972 %Y$ ! Y.num += remaining part of year ! MY ! M.str = days in months ! Q0/32 & 31 UD ! D.num = day ! Q0/1024 & 15 UM ! M.num = month ! | -1EJ & 255 - 4 "= ! if RSTS/E? ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Q0 - (Q0/1000*1000) UD ! D.num = day in year ! Q0/1000 + 1970 UY ! Y.num = year ! MY ! M.str = days in months ! 0U0 ! U.num = 0 ! 1UM ! M.num = January ! 12< ! for 12 months... ! Q0QM U1 ! 1.num = days in month 0.num ! QD - Q1 U1 ! 1.num = D.num - 1.num ! Q1 "> ! if D.num > days in month? ! Q1 UD ! D.num -= days ! 1 %M$ ! M.num++ ! ' ! end if ! 1 %0$ ! 0.num++ ! > ! end ! ! D.num = day in month ! ! M.num = month in year ! | ! otherwise, ! @O!DG! ! general case ! ' ! end if ! ' ' @O!D! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k ! ! where k = 4096 if year>1977 ! ! and k=0 otherwise ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !D8! Q0 & 7 + 2010 UY ! Y.num = year ! MY ! M.str = days in months ! Q0/8 & 31 UD ! D.num = day ! Q0/256 & 15 UM ! M.num = month ! @O!D! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! TOPS-10, ! ! TOPS-20: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !DT! Q0 - (Q0/31*31) + 1 UD ! D.num = day ! Q0/32 U0 ! 0.num /= 32 ! Q0 - (Q0/12*12) + 1 UM ! M.num = month ! Q0/12 + 1964 UY ! Y.num = year ! MY ! M.str = days in months ! @O!D! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! Amiga: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! Unix: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! Win32: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! OS/2: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! MS-DOS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !DG! Q0 & 31 UD ! D.num = day ! Q0/32 & 15 UM ! M.num = month ! Q0/512 + 1900 UY ! Y.num = year ! MY ! M.str = days in months ! !D! ! Get HH:MM:SS in Q-reg's H,M,S ! -1EJ/256 @O!T1,T8,TT! ! handle special decodings ! ^H*2 U0 ! 0.num = seconds since midnight ! @O!TG! ! handle general decoding ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! OS/8: ^H = 0 ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !T8! 12 UH ! H.num = 12 ! 00 UN ! N.num = 0 ! 00 US ! S.num = 0 ! @O!O! ! output time ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! RSTS/E: ^H = minutes until midnight ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !T1! -1EJ -4 "= ! RSTS/E? ! (24*60 - ^H)*60 U0 ! 0.num = seconds since midnight ! @O!TG! ! handle general decoding ! ' ^H*2 U0 ! 0.num = seconds since midnight ! @O!TG! ! do general case ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! TOPS-10: ^H = 60ths of a second since midnight ! ! (or 50ths of a second where 50 Hz power is used) ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !TT! ^H*60 U0 ! 0.num = seconds since midnight ! ! fall through to general case ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! ! RT-11: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! RSX-11: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! VAX/VMS: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! Amiga: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! Unix: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! Win32: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! OS/2: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! MS-DOS: ^H = (seconds since midnight)/2 ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! !TG! Q0/3600 UH ! H.num = hours ! QH*3600 U1 ! 1.num = hours (in seconds) ! (Q0 - Q1)/60 UN ! N.num = minutes ! Q0 - Q1 - (QN*60) US ! S.num = seconds ! !O! -600 U0 ! offset from GMT ! Q0 "< ! if offset < 0? ! -Q0 U1 ! add offset to local time ! Q1 - (Q1/100*100) %N$ ! N.num += minute offset ! QN - 59 "> ! if minutes overflowed? ! 1 %H$ ! H.num++ ! -60 %N$ ! N.num -= 60 ! ' ! end if ! Q1/100 %H$ ! H.num += hour offset ! QH - 23 "> ! if hours overflowed? ! 1 %D$ ! D.num++ ! -24 %H$ ! H.num -= 24 ! QM-1QM U1 ! 1.num = days in month ! QD - Q1 "> ! if days overflowed? ! 1 %M$ ! M.num++ ! 1 UD ! D.num = 1 ! QM - 12 "> ! if month overflowed? ! 1 %Y$ ! Y.num++ ! MY ! rebuild M.str ! 1 UM ! M.num = 1 ! ' ! end if ! ' ! end if ! ' ! end if ! | ! else ! ! subtract offset from local time ! -Q0 + (Q0/100*100) %N$ ! N.num -= minute offset ! QN "< ! if minutes underflowed? ! -1 %H$ ! H.num-- ! 60 %N$ ! N.num += 60 ! ' ! end if ! -Q0/100 %H$ ! H.num -= hour offset ! QH "< ! if hours underflowed? ! -1 %D$ ! D.num-- ! 24 %H$ ! H.num += 24 ! QD "= ! if days underflowed? ! -1 %M$ ! M.num-- ! QM "= ! if months underflowed? ! -1 %Y$ ! Y.num-- ! MY ! rebuild M.str ! 12 UM ! M.num = 12 ! 31 UD ! D.num = 31 ! | ! else ! QM-1QM UD ! D.num = last day of month ! ' ! end if ! ' ! end if ! ' ! end if ! ' ! end if ! @I"Date: " ! Insert Date: header ! ! Insert DAY, DD Mon YYYY ! @^U1%SunMonTueWedThuFriSat% QY U0 ! compute day within week from ! QD U1 ! methods of Sakamoto, Lachman, ! QM-3 "< ! Keith and Craver ! Q0 %1$ -1 %0$ | Q0 - 2 %1$ ' 23*QM/9 + Q1 + 4 + (Q0/4) - (Q0/100) + (Q0/400) U0 Q0 - (Q0/7*7) MS ! Insert DAY ! @I", " ! Insert , ! QD M0 ! Insert DD ! @I" " ! Insert ! @^U1%JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec% QM - 1 MS ! Insert name of month ! @I" " ! Insert ! QY\ ! Insert YYYY ! @I" " ! Insert ! ! Insert HH:MM:SS ! QH M0 ! Insert HH ! @I":" ! Insert : ! QN M0 ! Insert MM ! @I":" ! Insert : ! QS M0 ! Insert SS ! @I" GMT " ! Insert GMT ! ]1 ]0 ]S ]N ]H ]Y ]D ]M ! restore used Q-reg's ! $$ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 15 01:53:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 00:53:28 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <201207150121.q6F1LRQD031755@rickmurphy.net> References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> <201207150121.q6F1LRQD031755@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: In article <201207150121.q6F1LRQD031755 at rickmurphy.net>, Rick Murphy writes: > It's a PDP-8, after all - combining the AC with the link bit gives you > 13 bits. Ah, OK. I didn't know this about the PDP-8; all I knew was that it's word length was 12 bits. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Jul 15 04:26:59 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 11:26:59 +0200 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings In-Reply-To: References: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120715092659.GA4024@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated > > HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB > > goodness inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging > > electrolytic. It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not > > 50V, but 40V. I'm going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units > > paralleled as a substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows > > why the strange values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances > > are common on electrolytic caps. > > > I'e wondersd about this before (I may even have posted about it). I > can;'t see any electrical rason why they would use such capacitors. I've > seen a PSU board where the smoothing capacitors for the inputs to various > regulators were a mix of (I think( 5600uF and 6000uF, again +/-20% (at > least). Why theey didn't specify and ft al lthe same type is beyond me. > > I hae no idea what the 1000uF capacitor in your counter is for, but I'll > guess it's i nthe PSU. I would be _very_ suprised if a 1000uF didn't work > correctly there too. > > -tony Maybe simple size considerations are the cause for this. Maybe the Condenser manufacturer would'nt guarantee that 1000?F wil fit in a can of the desired size for the pcb, so they moved the specs down to 950. One of my customers here is an electrolytic condenser manufacturer, Frolyt. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 15 05:12:16 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 06:12:16 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> >Rick Murphy wrote: > [Snip] > > (For anyone who really cares about TECO-8, I've got a version that > works well with ANSI terminals, including PuTTY.) Does that include a VT100? Will it also work on ANSI terminals with more than 24 lines and / or 132 columns? A variant of KED under RT-11 can work with ANSI terminals (VT100 compatible) which have more than 24 lines and / or 132 columns. The only difficulty would be to handle extreme examples like 255 lines by 255 columns. While the code can manage, there will not be sufficient memory to hold the screen buffer. Well, that is not quite true - there would be sufficient memory for the screen buffer, but just no memory remaining for anything else like the code and other data. (Amazing - I actually wrote something humorous!) But seriously, up to about 60 lines by about 150 columns, there would not be any difficulties at all. Above that and the code really needs to be changed to request only what the "terminal" actually requires for the screen buffer. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 15 05:28:56 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 06:28:56 -0400 Subject: HTTP date header in TECO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50029B68.7030209@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >OK, here's what I believe is a correct macro for inserting the >current date and time as an HTTP Date header, portable across >different TECO environments as best I can make it. I tried to login >to the TOPS-10 machine at pdpplanet, but encountered difficulties. > >Therefore, I have only tested this end-to-end on a Win32 environment >where I'm running TECOC. I started with DATE.TES in the TECOC >distribution and changed things around to try and make it as small as >possible when squished. Right now I'm at 1,109 bytes of squished >TECO. I could squeeze out 33 more bytes if I change the code that >builds up a string containing the days within a month by replacing >the 31 at I// commands with an insert using literal control characters >but I'm trying to keep my source file free of control characters, with >a small concession for ESC characters. > >If others are willing to try this on their TECOs and tell me the >results, that would be great. The environments that are different >from my test environment are: > >PDP-8, OS/8 Different date, time encoding >PDP-11, RT-11 Different date encoding >PDP-11, RSTS/E Different date, time encoding >TOPS-10 Different date, time encoding >TOPS-20 Different date, time encoding > > > >[Snip] > > Please verify my understanding: Can all of the listed operating systems respond with the date AND time except for RT-11 which responds with only the date? From another post within this thread, I thought that OS/8 is unable to keep track of the time. Obviously, RT-11 keeps track of the time, but TECO for RT-11 does not have the ability (that I am aware of) to tell the TECO user what the time is. Can you please respond specifically if OS/8 keeps track of the time and if TECO under OS/8 and the other 3 operating systems is able to provide the user with the time of day? Since I don't have any TECO manuals for any operating system except RT-11, what command does the user send to TECO and what is the response when the time is requested? Finally, would it be helpful if TECO under RT-11 also provided the time of day? Jerome Fine From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jul 15 06:07:29 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:07:29 +0200 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5002A471.7080208@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-15 12:29, Richard wrote: > In article<4FFEAC19.2080507 at update.uu.se>, > Johnny Billquist writes: > >> >However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you >> >would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... > I'm not sure why you think TECO has 13-bit integers on a 12-bit > machine... Maybe because it does...? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 07:32:16 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 08:32:16 -0400 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After we received a number of great debugging suggestions we decided to replace the FDH-333 diodes that we used to repair the core stack with 1N4149 diodes. Other PDP-8 owners have used 1N4149 diodes successfully in core repair. We ran the Memory Address Test and the Memory Checkerboard for quite a while with no errors. So, that issue is fixed and now we can work on the spurious interrupt issue. Thanks for the help. -- Michael Thompson From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 08:57:17 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:57:17 +0200 Subject: Q-bus BSW-Q? Message-ID: I have another card I can't identify: It's a Q-bus card; in copper on the front of the card it's marked "BSW-Q". on the back, it's marked "4522 111 89361". On the front, there's a sticker that reads "4522 117 0825" and "1996830". I think the latter might be a date code. The 4522 numbers look suspiciously like 12NC numbers, which to me suggests that this is not a DEC part (maybe Philips?) Camiel. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 15 16:06:46 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:06:46 +0100 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> I picked up an 11/04 this weekend, thanks to the generosity of another list member. It has a known faulty PSU, although I don't yet know if it produces any output at all or not. Any tips on common failures? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Quinn > Sent: 14 July 2012 10:15 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 > > I have the power supply tested and reassembled and am ready to power up > the 11/04. > > I am looking to limit the number of installed boards initially. > Certainly the RK05 controller boards can go as I haven't got the drives > operational yet. > > The configuration of the 11/04 as I received it is as follows (hopefully this is > readable): > > M7257 M7257 M9302 > M7256 M7256 - > M7255 M7255 - > M7254 M7254 M920 > > M7258 M7258 M920 > M7856 M7856 - > M7860 M7860 - > GRANT M9202 > > GRANT M9202 > M7856 M7856 M7850 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > M7859 M7859 M9301 > GRANT > M7263 M7263 M7263 > > Looking for some guidance if the following is a valid configuration: > > > GRANT M9302 > M7856 M7856 M7850 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > M7859 M7859 M9301 > GRANT > M7263 M7263 M7263 > > I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I have > read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I think it is > saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the M9301 and the > console emulator commands will be available on the terminal... > which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this machine. > Am I understanding that right. > > Thanks everyone for your help. > > Regards > > Andrew From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 10:01:50 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 17:01:50 +0200 Subject: Dilog and ACT UNIBUS module identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I can't find anything on these two UNIBUS modules: > > - ACT 10197-0 > - DILOG 153078 Update: I missed a silkscreened identifier on the DILOG card. It's a DU142 1/2" magtape controller. The ACT card has a 50-pin connector on the top edge, and a 40-pin connector on the side. The only IC that stands out is a Z80 CPU. It's labeled "10197-0 Rev J1" on the front, and "10198-0 Rev D3 on the back (stickers). In addition, on the front is the following in copper: SN 10197 REV 10197001 REV C 10197002 REV B MADE IN USA From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jul 15 14:01:02 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:01:02 -0700 Subject: Dilog and ACT UNIBUS module identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5003136E.3010308@jwsss.com> Is this the ACT who made disk drive test equipment? I may have some contacts who worked in the engineering area there. If it is that mob, the card obviously might be related to that mission and not be general purpose. do you have a photo of that board, and especially any nomenclature / logos? Jim On 7/15/2012 8:01 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > The ACT card has a 50-pin connector on the top edge, and a 40-pin > connector on the side. From lists at loomcom.com Sun Jul 15 14:28:20 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:28:20 -0400 Subject: WANTED: KM11 and PDP-11/40 Maintenance Printset Message-ID: <20120715192820.GA4464@mail.loomcom.com> I've finally reached the stage of my PDP-11/35 restoration where I'm ready to turn it on and debug logic. A copy of the PDP-11/40 Maintenance Printset would be INCREDIBLY helpful, as would a bus extender and a KM11. Ideally, I don't want to buy these - this is a one-off project for me, I'd really like to borrow them for about 1-2 months and then return them. I'd be happy to pay a "rental" fee, even. I'm located in the SF Bay Area, if someone local can let any of these go for a little while, I'd be quite grateful. Thanks! -Seth Morabito PDP-11/35 Restoration Blog: http://www.loomcom.com/blog/ From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 14:45:51 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:45:51 -0500 Subject: WANTED: KM11 and PDP-11/40 Maintenance Printset In-Reply-To: <20120715192820.GA4464@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120715192820.GA4464@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: Hi Seth, I have both, but they might take a while to find. If you don't need them for a while, I can ship them to you when I find them. Do you know for fact that the cpu has problems? Or the memory? I would try to find a copy of the Unibus Troubleshooting Guide and go through that if you haven't. If you have options, KT11, KE11, KF11, etc you might want to pull them for now and check all the jumpers. I might have a board set you could use if that would help. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I've finally reached the stage of my PDP-11/35 restoration where I'm > ready to turn it on and debug logic. > > A copy of the PDP-11/40 Maintenance Printset would be INCREDIBLY > helpful, as would a bus extender and a KM11. > > Ideally, I don't want to buy these - this is a one-off project for me, > I'd really like to borrow them for about 1-2 months and then return > them. I'd be happy to pay a "rental" fee, even. > > I'm located in the SF Bay Area, if someone local can let any of these go > for a little while, I'd be quite grateful. > > Thanks! > > -Seth Morabito > > PDP-11/35 Restoration Blog: http://www.loomcom.com/blog/ From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 14:52:12 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:52:12 +0200 Subject: Dilog and ACT UNIBUS module identification In-Reply-To: <5003136E.3010308@jwsss.com> References: <5003136E.3010308@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, jim s wrote: > Is this the ACT who made disk drive test equipment? I may have some > contacts who worked in the engineering area there. If it is that mob, the > card obviously might be related to that mission and not be general purpose. I wouldn't know if it's the same ACT. There were three of these in a UNIBUS expansion box that was probably connected to a PDP-11/84. > do you have a photo of that board, and especially any nomenclature / logos? Yes, I've put them up at http://p800.wikispaces.com/ACT. The logo is clearly visible on the backside of the board. It consists of fine horizontal lines. Camiel. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 14:59:42 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:59:42 +0200 Subject: Q-bus BSW-Q? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I have another card I can't identify: > > It's a Q-bus card; in copper on the front of the card it's marked > "BSW-Q". on the back, it's marked "4522 111 89361". On the front, > there's a sticker that reads "4522 117 0825" and "1996830". I think > the latter might be a date code. The 4522 numbers look suspiciously > like 12NC numbers, which to me suggests that this is not a DEC part > (maybe Philips?) I've uploaded two photo's of this card to http://p800.wikispaces.com/BSW-Q. Camiel. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 15 15:41:35 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:41:35 -0600 Subject: HTTP date header in TECO In-Reply-To: <50029B68.7030209@compsys.to> References: <50029B68.7030209@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <50029B68.7030209 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > >If others are willing to try this on their TECOs and tell me the > >results, that would be great. The environments that are different > >from my test environment are: > > > >PDP-8, OS/8 Different date, time encoding > >PDP-11, RT-11 Different date encoding > >PDP-11, RSTS/E Different date, time encoding > >TOPS-10 Different date, time encoding > >TOPS-20 Different date, time encoding > > > > > > > Please verify my understanding: > > Can all of the listed operating systems respond with the date AND time > except > for RT-11 which responds with only the date? OS/8 does not report current time and ^H on OS/8 always returns zero. The other environments report current date and time, but in a format that is different from my test environment. > From another post within this thread, I thought that OS/8 is unable to keep > track of the time. Correct. I use 12 noon for the time, since it isn't available. > Obviously, RT-11 keeps track of the time, but TECO for > RT-11 does not have the ability (that I am aware of) to tell the TECO user > what the time is. ^H returns the time. > Since I don't have any TECO manuals for any operating system except > RT-11, what command does the user send to TECO and what is the > response when the time is requested? It's always the same command across all environments: ^B returns encoded date as an integer and ^H returns the encoded time as an integer. What's different is how those integer values encode the date and time as per the table above. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 15 16:57:53 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 17:57:53 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> >Rick Murphy wrote: > >At 06:12 AM 7/15/2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Rick Murphy wrote: >> >>> (For anyone who really cares about TECO-8, I've got a version that >>> works well with ANSI terminals, including PuTTY.) >> >> Does that include a VT100? >> >> Will it also work on ANSI terminals with more than 24 lines and / or >> 132 columns? > > Yes, VT100. Since it's basically the VT52 support ANSI-fied it'll work > on any VTxxx terminal. Unfortunately, only 80x24. It would be very > difficult to expand that due to the memory requirement for a larger > screen buffer. How much memory is available for a program under OS/8? The memory required for a screen buffer for the VT100 within the KED variants for RT-11 is only a minor problem even when running under RT11FB or using Kex.SAV under RT11XM. When Ked.SAV is initiated by VBGEXE and the full 64 KB is available, any problems with respect to insufficient memory disappear for a straight DEC VT100. The above seems counter-intutive since normally a user would expect a full virtual program designed to run under RT11XM would have more available memory than a program designed to run under RT11FB. If anyone is interested, I can provide a detailed explanation. In my particular situation when I do any development, I almost always run a four system jobs under RT-11 for a KED variant which is explicitly designed for that purpose. In addition to having all the features that are available when running as a background job, the additional requirement is the minimum possible low memory usage. Recent versions of KEX.SAV released by DEC required 801 words of low memory for system jobs. Reducing that to 449 words required a bit of imagination. However, starting with KEX.SAV as the base still greatly restricted the memory available for the screen buffer and other work space. Switching to Ked.SAV as the base increased the work space from 16KB to to almost 40KB or much more than double. If anyone is interested, the details are also rather interesting to a software addict. Note that the details are specific to RT-11 which has specific restrictions on system jobs as opposed to RSX-11 and TSX-Plus which treat all jobs in essentially the same manner as far as available memory is concerned. As for "terminals" which have more than 24 lines and / or 132 columns, even 40K bytes is not very much memory for a "terminal" with 100 lines and 200 columns, but it is sufficient. At present, the maximum number of lines available for an ANSI (VT100 compatible) "terminal" is 60 lines (as far as I know) and around 200 columns. That requires a 12 KB screen buffer which is best allocated on demand and as required rather than setting aside 12 KB all the time and wasting what is not used. However, code for that solution is also a problem in the KED variants. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 15 18:38:20 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:38:20 -0400 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: <5000CDAC.3000302@update.uu.se> References: <5000CDAC.3000302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5003546C.7060705@compsys.to> It is obvious that we disagree on my basic premise - that internally, sufficient bits be available to represent the date starting at a date far enough in the past to handle many old dates in the countries which would use the operating system. Some operating systems such as VMS achieved most of that goal. On OS/8, Unix and RT-11, as just a few examples, it would have required a decision to double the number of bits over what was actually used. For OS/8 and RT-11, the simple solution would have been to use half a word for the month and day (not sure what half a word is called on a PDP/8) and a full word for the year. Probably, the question of having adequate support for the date was the real decision. I have seen multi-million dollar systems which ignore the date (like a micro-wave) and only provide the time. But if there is a disk drive with files and dates to be noted when the file was created and at least modified (and perhaps referenced), then there can always be a reason to use dates on some files which precede the start of the operating system - to note when the information within the file was actually created is just one possibility. If this above basic premise is not considered adequate to justify allocating a word in memory for the year rather than 5 bits in the case of RT-11 (eventually 7 bits to manage dates from 1972 until 2099) and however many bits were used in OS/8, then there is really no point in this discussion. In respect of such vital information as the date, saving a few bits was not justified in my opinion. The fact that VMS arrived later than OS/8 and RT-11, but allowed dates much before VMS was ever released suggests that DEC had begun to realize that the date was important. The same with RSX-11. >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2012-07-13 19:00, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> >[Snip] >>> >Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. >>> >A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. >>> >That's ugly of them. >> >> What seems even more evident to me is that DEC took >> (as most other companies did as well) the attitude that >> even the internal representation of date and time was >> not important enough to allow the same information to >> be exchanged between operating systems on a consistent >> basis. > > Sorry, but I fail to see the point. The internal representation of a > date will almost by necessity be different between different OSes and > hardware. Having a bunch of 16 bit values represent a date on a PDP-8 > would be incredibly stupid and difficult, not to mention that OS/8 > have no concept of time to more detail than a day. And even that needs > to be updated manually every day. Your assumption differs from what I would suggest - see above. > So, ignoring the internal format, which can't really be portable > anyway, you then get to representation. There will always be dates > that cannot be represented in whatever format you choose. So what is > the point of bringing up that argument? It is nice if the dates that > you might reasonably expect to be processes be possible to express on > the system. As for communicating with other systems, in the > communication I would suspect/expect that you use an intermediate > format (a nice text string for example) that both agree on. And then > you can convert from the internal format to and from this intermediate > format, as long as the date is within a range expressable on that system. That would be one solution, but other solutions are available. The most important point is to have sufficient internal bits to start with. > When you go outside the date range for the system, you can either try > to do something reasonable, or give an error. I think that is a choice > that is best left to the writers of the code to decide on a case by > case basis. I agree - the point I attempt to make is to stress the requirement to have sufficient internal date range to start with - see above. > > By the way, Unix express time as a number of seconds since Jan 1, > 1970, 00:00 UTC. Which I think provides a maximum year of 2038 if 32 signed bits are used. Far better would have been to use 64 bits with a higher resolution such as milliseconds and start at least as far back as 1900. > And time is horribly complex. You know that even if we keep it fairly > modern, different countries switched from Julian dates to Gregorian > dates at different times, the last being Russia, in the early 20th > century. I am well aware of the nature of how complex the subject of dates and time can be. To start with, the Common Era (aka Gregorian) Calendar is not used as the primary date representation by even a majority of the Earth's population. However, with respect to using computers, the countries and societies which first started to use computers and the internet primarily use the Common Era Calendar and I would suggest that the only dates which early computers did support were Common Era (Gregorian) dates. I doubt that time zones were even considered at that early stage, let alone considered important enough to support internally, let alone externally. And even if Russia was considered important enough as a market for computer systems, I doubt that anyone would have remembered that the country adopted the Gregorian Calendar less than a hundred years prior. As for just how complex time actually is, the biggest problem that few people realize is that the length of the year can vary by many minutes from the average length of the year. I seem to remember that the variation can be about 15 minutes. Every so often, a leap second has been used to keep clocks synchronized with astronomical time (that UTC you mentioned above). The average person completely ignores that complexity, but now with the internet, operating systems must know the time very accurately. But the date is a completely different matter. At any one location, the date changes, on average, every 86,400 seconds - except when a leap second occurs - and having a few extra bits internally to handle the year is, in my opinion, essential. So the initial decision for the internal representation of the date was the base date or earliest date to be represented. Many, probably a majority of operating systems used a very restricted choice which reflected the emphasis on using as little storage as possible. In my opinion, that was a bad choice. > If you really think that you can come up with a reasonable, portable > design, that is "universal", I think I know of a few organizations > that would like to hear from you. A "universal" design would be to use Julian Days (just a count of the number of days from an agreed upon date - which has already been accepted by astronomers) instead of dates. Then, convert from Julian Days to whichever local calendar is favoured by the party using the date. But that has already been rejected by most societies and only a small percentage of the population are even aware that Julian Days exist. There are too many reasons for most societies to not use Julian Days - mostly religious in nature which requires a seven days cycle to support a holy day every seven days. The French attempted to start a new calendar, but failed - probably mostly on the seven day cycle. > Until then, I'm pretty much satisfied with things the way they already > are. Yes, OS/8 have been broken for 10 years now. But to fix it > require more than just changing the internal storage for the date. > > RSX got fixed, and depending on which bits you look, it might stop > working right 2070(?), 2099, 2155 or 34667. > > I don't know about RT-11, but I do know that RT-11 is totally separate > from RSX, and any problems are not shared, but unique. I noticed you are aware of the TECO discussion on dates for a number of different operating systems, so you probably already know. RT-11 will break on January 1st, 2100 in the same manner as OS/8 has already broken - there are no more bits in the date word to handle more than a range of 128 years starting in 1972. The only solution is the add additional storage to hold more bits for the year. Thus far, I know of only one other individual (who supports RUST) who is serious about adding those extra bits to the RT-11 file system, but there is no agreement as yet about how to do that. If no one else will even discuss the question of how dates for files in RT-11 can be used and extended beyond the year 2100, then eventually a unilateral decision will be made - or not as the case will be. Since it is probably not going to be very important for RT-11 to support dates after 2099 except for someone running RT-11 on an emulator (will any actual DEC hardware still be running after 2099), the matter is probably only of academic interest or only for hobby users - if any still exist in 2100. Jerome Fine From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 20:11:43 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:11:43 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: There are a series of posts on my blog (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog) about the process I went through getting the power supply running on my 11/04. This is in a BA11-K chassis so may differ if you have the smaller BA11-L. For me it was all about capacitor replacement. They work well now that is done. On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I picked up an 11/04 this weekend, thanks to the generosity of another list > member. It has a known faulty PSU, although I don't yet know if it produces > any output at all or not. Any tips on common failures? > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Quinn >> Sent: 14 July 2012 10:15 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 >> >> I have the power supply tested and reassembled and am ready to power up >> the 11/04. >> >> I am looking to limit the number of installed boards initially. >> Certainly the RK05 controller boards can go as I haven't got the drives >> operational yet. >> >> The configuration of the 11/04 as I received it is as follows (hopefully > this is >> readable): >> >> M7257 M7257 M9302 >> M7256 M7256 - >> M7255 M7255 - >> M7254 M7254 M920 >> >> M7258 M7258 M920 >> M7856 M7856 - >> M7860 M7860 - >> GRANT M9202 >> >> GRANT M9202 >> M7856 M7856 M7850 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> M7859 M7859 M9301 >> GRANT >> M7263 M7263 M7263 >> >> Looking for some guidance if the following is a valid configuration: >> >> >> GRANT M9302 >> M7856 M7856 M7850 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> M7859 M7859 M9301 >> GRANT >> M7263 M7263 M7263 >> >> I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I have >> read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I think it is >> saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the M9301 and the >> console emulator commands will be available on the terminal... >> which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this machine. >> Am I understanding that right. >> >> Thanks everyone for your help. >> >> Regards >> >> Andrew > From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 20:21:28 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:21:28 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Tony. I did some more research. The info on http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/interface/dl11w-info.html was particularly useful and I have determined which of the two M7856 boards in the machine is configured as the system console. I need to check the cable wiring to ensure it is configured for EIA serial IO (the attached cable has a molex connector rather than a DB25 or DB9) and I will give it a try. I did power up the machine with a minimum set of boards installed. The KY11-LB front panel came up, address 000000, Run and DC OK leds on. Some of the front panel button work. I can load an address into the address register and read it back but the buttons on the right side are very stiff and do nothing or provide the wrong digit. Will need to pull the front panel off and have a look at the keyboard but it certainly seems that the controller card for the front panel is working. Before I pull the front panel apart I will get a terminal connected to the system console port and see if the console emulator comes up. That should tell me if the CPU is running. Regards Andrew On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I > > Basiclaly, the M9301 contains a small amount of ROM containing a PDP11 > machine code program to provide the ocnsole emulator and device > bootstraps. The PDP11/04 CPU on its own will not talk to a terminal at > power-up, it'll just execute machine instructions. Of course, if said > intructions are a program that acesses the terminal port then the system > talks to the terminal. And that's what happens here. > >> have read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I think >> it is saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the M9301 >> and the console emulator commands will be available on the terminal... >> which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this >> machine. Am I understanding that right. > > It'll display the output and take the conoslue emulator commands from a > terminal (conented to a DL11-something-or-other card) at the standard > console terminal address, which IIRC is octal 777560 yo 777566. Note that > hardware addresses are 18 bits lont (even on a machine without an MMU) > and that word addresses are always even. The DL11 port takes up 4 word > addresss, for thee receive control/status register (CSR, it's a term > you'll come across time and again), the receive data register, the > transmit CSR and the transmit data register. > > Progrm adresses, are, of course, always 16 bits long. On a machine with > out an MMU (like the 11/04), program addresses 000000 to 157777 are left > unchanged (The extra 2 bits for the 18 bit address are set to 0), while > 160000 to 177777 are converted to 760000 to 777777 The latter range of > addresses (4K words) are gernally used for I/O devices, not memory. > > Now, the M7856 is certainyl a possible terminal itnerfce card for this, > but the address can be set by DIP swithces on said board, so it's not > certain that' sthe right one. It wuld be perverse in the extreme _not_ to > have a DL11 at the normal conosle terminal address, but if you get noting > on the connected terminal, checkign the address would not be a bad idea > > -tony From slandon110 at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 20:29:25 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:29:25 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out my computer collection Message-ID: <50036E75.5000105@gmail.com> I have the following items for sale Apple II SCSI Card- Works great, will include a copy of the SCSI Utilities disk $175.00 Apple II MicroDrive- Made by ReactiveMicro, Allows you to use IDE or CF Cards with your Apple II or IIGS. Will include a IDE-CF Adapter $250.00 Kaypro II- Mint condition with all books and software $200 Commodore SX64 Mint condition with FastLoad Cartridge, original software, carry bag, owners manual $250.00 2 SGI Indigo Systems with monitor, keyboard and all kinds of manuals/software- FREE If you pick up 1 Sun Blade 2000- FREE If you pick up 1 IBM RS/6000 43P Model 150- FREE If you pick up Will have more as I get through it. Shipping is extra, Local Pickup is welcomed in Flushing Michigan PayPal Preferred From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Jul 15 20:29:30 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:29:30 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201207160129.q6G1Ta04019384@rickmurphy.net> At 05:57 PM 7/15/2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >How much memory is available for a program under OS/8? VT support isn't available until the system has at least 16k of memory. The OS takes up 256 words of that. 80x24 frame buffer including flags occupies a big chunk of that - 2048 words (which holds the current screen image plus video attributes). On that 16k system, TECO is overlayed to make things fit. More memory means that the overlays get remapped into different memory fields, avoiding the swapping. Making OS/8 TECO support bigger screens wouldn't be either practical or useful as the current >As for "terminals" which have more than 24 lines and / or 132 columns, >even 40K bytes is not very much memory for a "terminal" with 100 lines >and 200 columns, but it is sufficient. 40K 8-bit bytes (what you're talking about here for just your screen buffer) is roughly 26KW out of the maximum 32KW for an OS/8 system. Doesn't leave much for code, does it? That's why it's either impractical or so heavily overlayed that it wouldn't be usable. -Rick From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 20:36:14 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 20:36:14 -0500 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: BA11-K (H765) or BA11-L (H777)? The H765 are easier to work on and the parts are easier to find. Paul On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I picked up an 11/04 this weekend, thanks to the generosity of another list > member. It has a known faulty PSU, although I don't yet know if it produces > any output at all or not. Any tips on common failures? > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Quinn >> Sent: 14 July 2012 10:15 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 >> >> I have the power supply tested and reassembled and am ready to power up >> the 11/04. >> >> I am looking to limit the number of installed boards initially. >> Certainly the RK05 controller boards can go as I haven't got the drives >> operational yet. >> >> The configuration of the 11/04 as I received it is as follows (hopefully > this is >> readable): >> >> M7257 M7257 M9302 >> M7256 M7256 - >> M7255 M7255 - >> M7254 M7254 M920 >> >> M7258 M7258 M920 >> M7856 M7856 - >> M7860 M7860 - >> GRANT M9202 >> >> GRANT M9202 >> M7856 M7856 M7850 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> M7859 M7859 M9301 >> GRANT >> M7263 M7263 M7263 >> >> Looking for some guidance if the following is a valid configuration: >> >> >> GRANT M9302 >> M7856 M7856 M7850 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> GRANT >> M7847 M7847 M7847 >> M7859 M7859 M9301 >> GRANT >> M7263 M7263 M7263 >> >> I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I have >> read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I think it is >> saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the M9301 and the >> console emulator commands will be available on the terminal... >> which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this machine. >> Am I understanding that right. >> >> Thanks everyone for your help. >> >> Regards >> >> Andrew > From lists at loomcom.com Sun Jul 15 20:39:20 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:39:20 -0400 Subject: WANTED: KM11 and PDP-11/40 Maintenance Printset In-Reply-To: References: <20120715192820.GA4464@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20120716013920.GA10742@mail.loomcom.com> Hi Paul! * On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 02:45:51PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Do you know for fact that the cpu has problems? Or the memory? Well... you caught me, I don't actually know :) I haven't tried to power the system on with the cards installed yet. I've spent the past month and a half just taking everything apart down to the last screw, cleaning everything, getting the chassis professionally sandblasted and powder coated, and repairing the power supply. So the fact is, I have no idea, and I may be jumping the gun a little. But on the other hand, I'd frankly be shocked (SHOCKED, I tell you!) if it worked on the first try, given the state of the computer when I received it. It had been exposed to very rough conditions for a long time. Now that the power supply is fully repaired and everything has been put together and tested WITHOUT boards, I plan on doing my first power-up WITH a minimal set of boards tomorrow evening. Fingers crossed. -Seth From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 15 21:30:01 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:30:01 -0500 Subject: Dilog DQ153 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50037CA9.8000107@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:23:38 +0200 From: Camiel Vanderhoeven To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Subject: Dilog and ACT UNIBUS module identification Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I can't find anything on these two UNIBUS modules: - ACT 10197-0 - DILOG 153078 I believe a Dilog DQ153 is a Pertec-formatted mag tape controller. I used one in my system. The label you are reading is probably the blank board part #, there should be a silkscreen label on the front of the board. Jon From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 15 23:27:40 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is holy Message-ID: <201207160427.q6G4ReBR10354786@floodgap.com> Over the weekend, having gotten a beautiful, perfectly circular round tuit, I cracked the root password on my SGI Indy (tip of the hat to Doc Shipley) and got the system fully operational. It's a little poky, so I suppose the next thing is to upgrade the CPU module and get a 24-bit video card in it (8-bit is yugly). However, in the meantime, I'm using a cheapo 13w3 to VGA converter that works okay with my NEC monitor, but there is still a sync signal on the green line, leaving me with a persistent green tint. Reducing green gamma in IRIX helps some, but I'd like to get my black back (because once you go black, well, you know). What are people using to turn SOG into a more conventional sync signal an off-the-shelf multisync monitor like my NEC XV15+ VGA display will accept? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diamonds are forever. ------------------------------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 00:26:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:26:31 -0700 Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is holy In-Reply-To: <201207160427.q6G4ReBR10354786@floodgap.com> References: <201207160427.q6G4ReBR10354786@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50034397.1168.2E5FDB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2012 at 21:27, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > However, in the meantime, I'm using a cheapo 13w3 to VGA converter > that works okay with my NEC monitor, but there is still a sync signal > on the green line, leaving me with a persistent green tint. Reducing > green gamma in IRIX helps some, but I'd like to get my black back > (because once you go black, well, you know). What are people using to > turn SOG into a more conventional sync signal an off-the-shelf > multisync monitor like my NEC XV15+ VGA display will accept? You may want to investigate the LM1881--this seems to be popular with XBox users hooking up to VGA, since the XBox is SOG. Or, you could simply find a VGA monitor that accepts SOG. My NEC MultiSync LCD 2010, for instance, does. --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Jul 16 01:04:09 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:04:09 +0200 Subject: Needed : idle line motor controller Message-ID: ... for one of the Teletype ASR33's in the danish IT museum I'm located in Denmark (obviously!) where we use 220VAC. However, the TTY runs off an 220/117V transformer, so there should not be any problems building the controller into the stand Thanks Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 415 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 01:10:03 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:10:03 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ153 In-Reply-To: <50037CA9.8000107@pico-systems.com> References: <50037CA9.8000107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 4:30 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > - DILOG 153078 > I believe a Dilog DQ153 is a Pertec-formatted mag tape controller. > I used one in my system. The label you are reading is probably > the blank board part #, there should be a silkscreen label on > the front of the board. Hi Jon, I somehow missed a big silkscreened label reading "DU142" which is indeed a Pertec magtape controller. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 16 01:39:27 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 02:39:27 -0400 Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is holy References: <201207160427.q6G4ReBR10354786@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4501B04A3DFC47748BB22149E5AE2070@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 12:27 AM Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is holy > Over the weekend, having gotten a beautiful, perfectly circular round > tuit, I cracked the root password on my SGI Indy (tip of the hat to Doc > Shipley) and got the system fully operational. It's a little poky, so I > suppose the next thing is to upgrade the CPU module and get a 24-bit video > card in it (8-bit is yugly). > > However, in the meantime, I'm using a cheapo 13w3 to VGA converter that > works > okay with my NEC monitor, but there is still a sync signal on the green > line, leaving me with a persistent green tint. Reducing green gamma in > IRIX > helps some, but I'd like to get my black back (because once you go black, > well, you know). What are people using to turn SOG into a more > conventional > sync signal an off-the-shelf multisync monitor like my NEC XV15+ VGA > display > will accept? > I use older Sony Trinitron monitors with my old 68K macs that like SOG. There are probably a few people in your area that would love to ditch an old tube monitor. From djg at pdp8online.com Mon Jul 16 09:15:57 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 10:15:57 -0400 Subject: potter pens. In-Reply-To: <500249A4.5040705@hachti.de> References: <500249A4.5040705@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20120716141556.GA25031@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 06:40:04AM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > In have Fisher Space Pen mines for the Calcomp 565/563... Calcomp > and Fisher labeled. > What means "the older plotter" for you? > The standard Fisher space pen was too long for my Calcomp. I did find a person selling NOS of the correct size. Info on this page http://www.pdp8online.com/563/563.shtml From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 16 09:47:47 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is holy In-Reply-To: <50034397.1168.2E5FDB5@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jul 15, 12 10:26:31 pm" Message-ID: <201207161447.q6GElls714024840@floodgap.com> > You may want to investigate the LM1881--this seems to be popular with > XBox users hooking up to VGA, since the XBox is SOG. I see some circuits based on that. Should be easy to build. > Or, you could simply find a VGA monitor that accepts SOG. My NEC > MultiSync LCD 2010, for instance, does. One site alleged if you clip pins 11-15, NEC monitors will use SOG instead. Any truth to this? I have a lot of VGA cables sitting around doing nothing, so I might try this unless people know it's hooey. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Jackie Fisher, who are you? Dreadnought ------------------------------------ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jul 16 09:47:50 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:47:50 +0200 Subject: HP diode 1901-0884 HP 2113 PSU Message-ID: <003801cd6361$f9d4e8f0$ed7ebad0$@xs4all.nl> Does somebody knows what I can use as replacement ? One of the 5V rectifier diodes from my HP 2113 PSU (HP 5061-3476) died, and I can't find the equivalent part number for it. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jul 16 10:59:19 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:59:19 +0200 Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is holy In-Reply-To: <201207161447.q6GElls714024840@floodgap.com> References: <50034397.1168.2E5FDB5@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jul 15, 12 10:26:31 pm" <201207161447.q6GElls714024840@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <005501cd636b$f94b6210$ebe22630$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Cameron Kaiser > Verzonden: maandag 16 juli 2012 16:48 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is > holy > > > You may want to investigate the LM1881--this seems to be popular with > > XBox users hooking up to VGA, since the XBox is SOG. > > I see some circuits based on that. Should be easy to build. > > > Or, you could simply find a VGA monitor that accepts SOG. My NEC > > MultiSync LCD 2010, for instance, does. > > One site alleged if you clip pins 11-15, NEC monitors will use SOG instead. Any > truth to this? I have a lot of VGA cables sitting around doing nothing, so I might > try this unless people know it's hooey. > I use a LM1881 based circuit to hook a Samsung on my HP 9000/380 system. Works fine. -Rik From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 11:14:39 2012 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:14:39 +0200 Subject: Altair 8800 Kit - Paging Grant Stockly In-Reply-To: References: <20120713201024.GA21108@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 6:19 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jul 2012, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> Has anyone heard from Grant Stockly recently? The Altair Kit forums have >> fallen into the hands of spammers, and I haven't been able to reach him >> through email. He announced a new sale of kits in early June, but I >> didn't find out about it until last week. I was hoping to get in on >> it. > > > I just now spoke with him on the phone. He's been busy with a bunch of > stuff including business and kids. I let him know about this post and he > said he'd post something when he gets home. I was in email contact with him 18th and 19th of June, he said he would send an order form later (nothing yet). ah yes, the forum spam. Forums need constant spam fighting these days. I have moderated some in the past, and I'm moderating another these days. It's a full-time activity. What works best seems to be to require first post to be moderated. But this requires that the forum actually has a group of moderators. Non-moderated forums don't work these days. What the world needs is of course a global task force to deal with spammers.. physically. And those who pay the spammers, some of those spammers are actually real people, in some far-away country, (presumably) paid to sit day in and day out adding rubbish to forums and wikis (after a while you start figuring out the differences between the bots and the people). .-Tor From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 16 11:37:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:37:40 -0700 Subject: A few 85xx uploads In-Reply-To: <4FFC8F1A.50907@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFC8F1A.50907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50044354.9060803@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix > > Changed 856x to 8560 and created 8550 and 8562 directories > There is an untested DOS/50 boot disk image under 8550 > It's probably OK. The files extracted correctly on the 8562 > > Under 8562: > The boot block for the 8562 (which appears to be different from the one on the V2 > update floppy from the 8560) and a small program to create an IMD file with a payload > from stdin, so you can, for example, make a floppy with a tarball that can be read on > /dev/rfd0 on the 8562. > A tarball of the 8562 Tnix 2.1 files are now uploaded. The kermit that was on the system was getting exponentially slower at transferring /dev/rhd0, so I gave up after only getting 15mb of the 40mb after two days. Will have to fiddle with it some more to see if I can get a complete raw dump of the disk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 16 13:57:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:57:33 -0000 Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jul 16, 12 08:36:54 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 16 Jul 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > omg how about tweaking the monitor > > > Do you even think before touching a keyboard? > > You've made a stupid suggestion to a guy that could take a gunshot to the I am wondering just why this is a 'stupid suggestion'. Why won't fidding with the black level / offset and maybe the gain fo the green video amplifier in the monitor improve matters? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 16 13:57:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:57:37 -0000 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: <00f601cd637a$b9033ed0$2b09bc70$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jul 16, 12 06:44:55 pm Message-ID: > > It is a H777 PSU. You sure know how to pick them. First you have an H7140 that has startup chopper problems and now you have an H777... Anyway, the first thing to do is to check the fuse (in the obvious holder on top), then to see if it prodcues any outputs and if the internal relay operates. That relay is part of the inrush limiter circuti and you can have soem very odd problems if it doesn't work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 16 13:57:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:57:41 -0000 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jul 15, 12 10:06:46 pm Message-ID: > > I picked up an 11/04 this weekend, thanks to the generosity of another list > member. It has a known faulty PSU, although I don't yet know if it produces > any output at all or not. Any tips on common failures? IIRC the 11/04 can be (officially) fitted in several different mounting boxes.. I have experience of2 o them The 5.25" one uses an H777 PSU to the right of the backplane. This is a somewhat evil SMPSU at least if you don't fully understand the scheamtic. The 10.5" one Has the PSU o nthe back. It has a large mains transformer in the middle feed DEC power bricks (low-votlage swtiching regualtors) for the 5V and -15V outputs. The +15V supply is a simple linear regulator on a PCB under the transforrmer. This one is relatively easy to sort out. I cant' thin kof any common failures for either one, but let us know what you have and I'll think of things to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 16 13:57:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:57:52 -0000 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at Jul 16, 12 01:21:28 pm Message-ID: > I need to check the cable wiring to ensure it is configured for EIA > serial IO (the attached cable has a molex connector rather than a DB25 > or DB9) and I will give it a try. If the 'Molex' connector is actually a flat white thing with 8 possible contacts in a row, then it's actually an AMP connecotr ;-). It's also almost certainly current loop, since that's what DEC used for corrent loop conenctors. AFAIK, most, if not all, DL11-Ws had the RS232 driver/receiver chips fitted, if not, it's easy to add them (they're 1488s and 1489s, easy to get). You then need to make up the right cable. Note that there's a jumper in the cable between 2 pins at the RL11 end, it connects the output of the appropriate receiver (RS232 or current loop) to the input of the UART. Apart form that, there are no gotchas. > > I did power up the machine with a minimum set of boards installed. > The KY11-LB front panel came up, address 000000, Run and DC OK leds > on. Some of the front panel button work. I can load an address into Can you haldt the CPU (IIRC that's ctrl-halt on the keypad panel), turning the RUN lamp off? If not, it's likely you have an open grant chain somewhere. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 16 12:44:55 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:44:55 +0100 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <007b01cd62cd$c0409c90$40c1d5b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00f601cd637a$b9033ed0$2b09bc70$@ntlworld.com> It is a H777 PSU. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: 16 July 2012 02:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ready to Power up the 11/04 > > BA11-K (H765) or BA11-L (H777)? The H765 are easier to work on and the > parts are easier to find. > > Paul > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I picked up an 11/04 this weekend, thanks to the generosity of another > > list member. It has a known faulty PSU, although I don't yet know if > > it produces any output at all or not. Any tips on common failures? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Quinn > >> Sent: 14 July 2012 10:15 > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 > >> > >> I have the power supply tested and reassembled and am ready to power > >> up the 11/04. > >> > >> I am looking to limit the number of installed boards initially. > >> Certainly the RK05 controller boards can go as I haven't got the > >> drives operational yet. > >> > >> The configuration of the 11/04 as I received it is as follows > >> (hopefully > > this is > >> readable): > >> > >> M7257 M7257 M9302 > >> M7256 M7256 - > >> M7255 M7255 - > >> M7254 M7254 M920 > >> > >> M7258 M7258 M920 > >> M7856 M7856 - > >> M7860 M7860 - > >> GRANT M9202 > >> > >> GRANT M9202 > >> M7856 M7856 M7850 > >> GRANT > >> M7847 M7847 M7847 > >> GRANT > >> M7847 M7847 M7847 > >> M7859 M7859 M9301 > >> GRANT > >> M7263 M7263 M7263 > >> > >> Looking for some guidance if the following is a valid configuration: > >> > >> > >> GRANT M9302 > >> M7856 M7856 M7850 > >> GRANT > >> M7847 M7847 M7847 > >> GRANT > >> M7847 M7847 M7847 > >> M7859 M7859 M9301 > >> GRANT > >> M7263 M7263 M7263 > >> > >> I am also looking to confirm my understanding of the M9301 card. I > >> have read the maintenance and operators manual for the M9301. I > >> think it is saying that the Console Emulator startup message from the > >> M9301 and the console emulator commands will be available on the > terminal... > >> which I take to mean the terminal connected to the M7856 in this > machine. > >> Am I understanding that right. > >> > >> Thanks everyone for your help. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Andrew > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 16 14:50:16 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:50:16 +0100 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <00f601cd637a$b9033ed0$2b09bc70$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jul 16, 12 06:44:55 pm Message-ID: <00fd01cd638c$3a6cc2f0$af4648d0$@ntlworld.com> Can't say I get much of a choice when it is given to me free.... :-) It will be a little bit of time before I get to look at it properly, but I will start with these things and try to narrow down the problem area. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 26 June 2012 20:51 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Ready to Power up the 11/04 > > > > > It is a H777 PSU. > > > You sure know how to pick them. First you have an H7140 that has startup > chopper problems and now you have an H777... > > Anyway, the first thing to do is to check the fuse (in the obvious holder on > top), then to see if it prodcues any outputs and if the internal relay operates. > That relay is part of the inrush limiter circuti and you can have soem very > odd problems if it doesn't work. > > -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 19:22:03 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:22:03 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <5004AC26.10006@compsys.to> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> <201207160129.q6G1Ta04019384@rickmurphy.net> <5004AC26.10006@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Did anyone read this to the end? Yes. > Again, will anyone else ever use a VT100 with > KED and more than 24 lines by 132 columns? Maybe. In the 1980s, I wrote a phone book of RT-11 MACRO-11 application code and device drivers on a real PDP-11/23 and a real VT220. I printed the phone book out on my authentic LA-180 w/LPV11 for debugging and for delivering to the customer (hardcopy was required in the contract). These days, I'd rather open a session on my preferred desktop environment and stretch the window to some comfy size - perhaps 132 wide (no point in writing something wider than one can print) by 80 to 100 tall - for writing and debugging code. That leaves me room to do other things on the screen and still have a lot more room to visualize the code and code flow. It doesn't matter to me if it's a window wrapping around a Kermit session or plumbed to an emulator or whatever. The fact that it's a window on my desktop enables cutting and pasting in and out of browser windows and perhaps other RT-11 sessions (again, real or emulated). Now... the fact that I can visualize how I would work does not mean that I would ever actually get around to doing any projects in that environment. Most of what I've done with RT-11 since 1990 has been to find existing programs (especially games) and run them on real terminals. If I have to edit a config file or a CMD file to recompile something, I can live in 80x24. So... I might, I could, but I probably won't. -ethan From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 18:33:37 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:33:37 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If the 'Molex' connector is actually a flat white thing with 8 possible This one is 2 rows of 3 pins. The Berg connector is wired for EIA as described on pdp11.nl and the DL11-W's have the driver chips so all good there. > Can you haldt the CPU (IIRC that's ctrl-halt on the keypad panel), You are right with ctrl-halt but I get the Bus Error LED rather. My current configuration is as follows (note that the Grant cards are all in Row D). GRANT M9302 GRANT GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 M7859 M7859 M9301 GRANT M7263 M7263 M7263 When I first received the machine the configuration for this 9 connector section was: GRANT M9202 M7856 M7856 M7850 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 GRANT M7847 M7847 M7847 M7859 M7859 M9301 GRANT M7263 M7263 M7263 so the only difference is the removal of the M7856 and replacement with a Grant card. I will reinstate the M7856 and see it if makes any difference. Regards Andrew From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jul 16 19:04:54 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:04:54 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <201207160129.q6G1Ta04019384@rickmurphy.net> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> <201207160129.q6G1Ta04019384@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <5004AC26.10006@compsys.to> I use the word "terminal" in quotes to designate either a real DEC VT100 or an emulated "terminal" under emulators such as Ersatz-11 which support up to 255 character columns and maybe eventually 255 lines (at present only up to 60 lines) and other emulators of the VT100 or any other real DEC terminals - including Ersatz-11 which also emulates the DEC VT52. However, I have avoided testing any code which is specifically for the VT52 since there seems to be zero interest in an emulation of a VT52 with more than 24 lines. Actually, there seems to be zero interest in emulation of a VT100 with more than 24 lines and 132 columns, but I will use the code for myself, so I will pursue the challenge. >Rick Murphy wrote: > >At 05:57 PM 7/15/2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> How much memory is available for a program under OS/8? > > VT support isn't available until the system has at least 16k of > memory. The OS takes up 256 words of that. The VT100 can also use a screen with 132 columns and 24 lines which requires an extra 1248 bytes. The VT100 variants of KED all support both 80 character columns and 132 character columns on a VT100. The KED commands: SET SCREEN 80 SET SCREEN 132 allow the use to switch between 80 character columns and 132 character columns. MACRO-11 listings are normally 132 character columns and is very difficult to read such listings using only 80 character columns. Would it be possible to provide support for those extra 1248 bytes for a screen buffer for the VT100 under OS/8? > 80x24 frame buffer including flags occupies a big chunk of that - 2048 > words (which holds the current screen image plus video attributes). On > that 16k system, TECO is overlayed to make things fit. More memory > means that the overlays get remapped into different memory fields, > avoiding the swapping. INTERESTING!!! Under RT-11, that concept is also available under Mapped Monitors, but only when the program is explicitly LINKed for virtual overlays. BUT, when standard low memory overlays are requested, there is no method to avoid using disk I/O read requests for each overlay segments as required. Of course, if the disk block in question is already in cache memory, then there is just a memory to memory transfer of the words for the segment. Under an RT-11 Mapped Monitor which supports 4 MB of memory, most programs can be initiated within a region of extended memory of 64 KB for which the program address range is 0 octal to 177777 octal. No memory is lost to the OS - or more to the point, the program executes out of USER memory and the OS continues to execute out of KERNAL memory. All of this separation makes use of the MMU hardware. > Making OS/8 TECO support bigger screens wouldn't be either practical > or useful as the current "current" what? I agree that with such a limited size of memory under OS/8, more than 24 lines by 132 columns is not a possibility. RT-11 was also extremely limited in the 1970s when many PDP-11 systems were using core memory, usually with a maximum of 32 KB (or 16 KW) including memory for the OS. But, when the VT100 became available, as far as I understand, there was always support for 24 lines by 132 columns. Now that a full 64 KB are available and Ersatz-11 makes it trivial to use a VT100 ANSI "terminal" with 60 vertical lines by 200 character columns, it seems worth my effort to modify KED to support that availability, although I will probably limit my usage to a maximum of 60 lines by 150 character columns. >> As for "terminals" which have more than 24 lines and / or 132 columns, >> even 40K bytes is not very much memory for a "terminal" with 100 lines >> and 200 columns, but it is sufficient. > > 40K 8-bit bytes (what you're talking about here for just your screen > buffer) is roughly 26KW out of the maximum 32KW for an OS/8 system. > Doesn't leave much for code, does it? That's why it's either > impractical or so heavily overlayed that it wouldn't be usable. The variant of KED for the VT100 which uses low memory overlays presently requires just over 16 KB for code and fixed data. When run under an RT-11 Mapped Monitor which makes 64 KB, an enhanced KED could use 20 KB for a screen buffer for a "terminal" with 100 lines and 200 columns as opposed to 3 KB for a VT100 (or an emulated VT100) with 24 lines and 132 columns. Even with the larger screen buffer, there would still be sufficient memory for everything else that is required, although the cut / paste buffer would be considerably smaller. Unfortunately, at the moment, there is a catch 22 within the code in KED which divides the memory into various portions depending on how much is available. That code is executed before the code makes a request to determine which file is to be used. Type ahead of the file specification is explicitly allowed. However, in order to determine the number of lines and columns of the "terminal", the request sent to the terminal receives characters back from the terminal which will conflict with any characters which are already present for the file names. In addition, the request to determine the files names uses the memory made available which depends on the size of the screen. There may also be other code and data conflicts if the screen size is determined again after the file names are determined. Requesting the largest possible memory for the screen buffer and then wasting most of it is not reasonable, but shifting the order of the code may be difficult. The present compromise uses a screen buffer for 60 lines by 132 columns when only 44 lines by 132 columns are actually required. The wasted 2000 bytes is not really a problem when 64 KB are available. So now the challenge is to determine how to divide up the available memory to use just the size required for the screen buffer without wasting any. It would have been much easier if KED had used some other memory that was temporarily available to first request the file names, then allocated the available memory for the screen buffer and everything else. But then I would not be writing this response and looking forward to the challenge of finding a solution!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did anyone read this to the end? Any suggestions? Again, will anyone else ever use a VT100 with KED and more than 24 lines by 132 columns? It really is sort of interesting that the solution which supports 44 lines by 132 columns is already being used to develop and look for other enhancements within KED itself. That variant of KED is K42 after the VT420 which supports 48 lines by 132 columns. Jerome Fine From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jul 16 19:19:45 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 00:19:45 +0000 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Richard Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:01 PM > Anyone got one? I'm curious to look at it. > According to > , it > was a merger of TECMACS and TMACS. How about http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ ? I gave Tim a copy of the sources a very very long time ago, and they're still there. Scroll down. In case you wonder why I say "I gave...", I'll quote an ancient .sig I used to use: Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Customer Interface, XKL LLC I became the de facto maintainer the year I posted a Y2K fix to the TIME library to comp.emacs, gnu.emacs.bug, and gnu.emacs., with incredulous but supportive responses from RMS and Kent Pitman (author of the library in question). The early history of EMACS is a little more complex that what you paraphrase from the XEmacs docs. According to folks at the AI Lab at the time, RMS went around to every single user of ^R mode in TECO (which he had written) and collected all of their personalized macros, then rationalized the table of assignments. EMACS is far more than just "a merger of TECMACS and TMACS". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 02:46:55 2012 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:46:55 +0200 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > The early history of EMACS is a little more complex that what you paraphrase > from the XEmacs docs. According to folks at the AI Lab at the time, RMS > went around to every single user of ^R mode in TECO (which he had written) > and collected all of their personalized macros, then rationalized the table > of assignments. EMACS is far more than just "a merger of TECMACS and TMACS". There's just one line about Multics Emacs in the XEmacs doc, in anyone wants to know more about that particular version there's an interesting article by B. Greenberg which describes it all, and also talks about TECO and ^R mode and how that lead to the switch from what was TECO to Emacs. The article is at http://www.multicians.org/mepap.html -Tor From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 17 03:23:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 02:23:56 -0600 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson writes: > How about http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ ? I gave Tim a copy of the > sources a very very long time ago, and they're still there. Scroll down. OK, this is not what I was expecting. Apparently while emacs was a set of macros for TECO, it isn't a set of macros for *standard* TECO, but only for the heavily modified version of TECO at MIT. The command set is so divergent from standard TECO, that I hardly recognize the command set. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Jul 17 05:35:41 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 06:35:41 -0400 Subject: TECO-8 with extended screens (was Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 35) In-Reply-To: <5004AC26.10006@compsys.to> References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> <201207160129.q6G1Ta04019384@rickmurphy.net> <5004AC26.10006@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201207171035.q6HAZh0Q029317@rickmurphy.net> At 08:04 PM 7/16/2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rick Murphy wrote: >>Making OS/8 TECO support bigger screens wouldn't be either practical >>or useful as the current > >"current" what? An "Squirrel!" moment, apparently. The current code just about fits in the available memory, with lots of hacks and kludges to make it all fit, including interesting places where widths other than 80 columns would require recoding as the target for this software was the VT52. To give you an idea just how tightly wound this code is, there's this plea in the release notes: "News of bummed locations (even 1) should be sent to the TECO SIG. Every little bit helps. For example, backward searches could be implemented if we could only bum about 20 locations." As I said, it's not practical to update this for variable-size screens. It's close to a miracle that TECO-8 is as feature-rich as it is on a machine with 16K. -Rick From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jul 17 08:29:57 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:29:57 -0400 Subject: Using "terminals" with KED with more than 24 lines In-Reply-To: References: <5001E88D.2080404@update.uu.se> <201207150138.q6F1aL2q032178@rickmurphy.net> <50029780.7040102@compsys.to> <201207151123.q6FBNoNl027952@rickmurphy.net> <50033CE1.6030306@compsys.to> <201207160129.q6G1Ta04019384@rickmurphy.net> <5004AC26.10006@compsys.to> Message-ID: <500568D5.80901@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>Again, will anyone else ever use a VT100 with >>KED and more than 24 lines by 132 columns? >> >Maybe. In the 1980s, I wrote a phone book of RT-11 MACRO-11 application code >and device drivers on a real PDP-11/23 and a real VT220. I printed the phone >book out on my authentic LA-180 w/LPV11 for debugging and for delivering to the >customer (hardcopy was required in the contract). These days, I'd rather open a >session on my preferred desktop environment and stretch the window to some >comfy size - perhaps 132 wide (no point in writing something wider than one can >print) by 80 to 100 tall - for writing and debugging code. That leaves me room >to do other things on the screen and still have a lot more room to visualize the >code and code flow. It doesn't matter to me if it's a window wrapping around a >Kermit session or plumbed to an emulator or whatever. The fact that >it's a window >on my desktop enables cutting and pasting in and out of browser windows and >perhaps other RT-11 sessions (again, real or emulated). > > It seems like you are familiar with the Win32 variant of Ersatz-11 which supports screen up to 255 columns, but currently only up to 60 lines. While the default is 24 lines by 80 columns which can be toggled to 132 columns for ANSI (VT100 compatible) "terminals", the Win32 variant supports: E11.EXE /CONSIZE:80x60 to use 60 lines by (80 columns / 132 columns). To support more than 132 columns, KED only needs to redefine the maximum number of columns and reassemble. Likewise with more than 24 lines - except there are a few text strings which have the 24 lines by 132 columns hard coded. >Now... the fact that I can visualize how I would work does not mean that I would >ever actually get around to doing any projects in that environment. >Most of what >I've done with RT-11 since 1990 has been to find existing programs (especially >games) and run them on real terminals. If I have to edit a config file or a CMD >file to recompile something, I can live in 80x24. > >So... I might, I could, but I probably won't. > Since I added a KED variant I call K42.SAV (after the VT420 which supports 48 lines), I find the additional lines very useful, especially when additional changes are being made to the KED variants. Normally, I use the video card in FULL SCREEN mode on a Windows system under the DOS variant of Ersatz-11. This video card supports both 24 lines by (80 columns OR 132 columns) PLUS 50 lines by 80 columns OR 44 lines by 132 columns. There are a few other choices for the number of vertical lines, but only those two choices for the number of columns. K42 currently supports up to 60 lines since that does not waste too much of the memory on a screen buffer which uses a maximum of 5808 bytes as opposed to the 7920 bytes actually available for the screen buffer of 60 lines by 132 columns. If possible, it would be nice to dynamically send a request to the "terminal" to determine the screen size before the screen buffer is allocated. There are catch 22 conflicts in the code which prevent that although there may be a fudge around the problem. Initially, I modified KEX.SAV to require only 449 words of low memory as a system job instead of 801 words since I almost always run FOUR system jobs of KEX.SAV to allow me to have four edit sessions. Saving 1408 words of low memory is very helpful when SDX.SYS is also loaded. However, I found that the cut / paste buffer is so small with KEX.SAV that I switched to KED.SAV under VBGEXE. However, the low memory used was then far too large. So I finally figured out a way to use a variant of KED with low memory overlays with the same code that initiates KEX.SAV as a virtual job. Essentially, it uses the normal OHANDL low memory handler with a BASE of "/B:21000" during the LINK along with a copy of the XHANDL in the Absolute Section (.ASect) to start everything in the same manner as KEX.SAV; ONLY, instead of the single virtual overlay starting at virtual address 20000 octal, the code and data of the low memory overlay variant of KED.SAV is present which uses much less memory that the single virtual overlay from the KED.SAV variant. LINK does not support using OHANDL and XHANDL combined in that fashion, so I just wrote my own version which LINK thinks is only a standard OHANDL, but then finds some code and data for the Absolute Section which LINK does not care to figure out, but turns out to be the XHANDL code and data modified to fit in 96 words for the APR0 portion of the code, data and load parameters. It was quite a squeeze. The only problem I found so far is that if I run the file K4S.REL ("S" is for System Job) as a background job, RT-11 crashes when the program terminates. Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 13:47:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:47:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: <00fd01cd638c$3a6cc2f0$af4648d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jul 16, 12 08:50:16 pm Message-ID: [Hopefully the time/date for this message will be correct...] > > Can't say I get much of a choice when it is given to me free.... :-) I know... Given the choice, I'd never recomend the PDP11/45 as an introduction to PDP11s, that machine is complciated. But it's what I started on, for much the same reason :-) > > It will be a little bit of time before I get to look at it properly, but I > will start with these things and try to narrow down the problem area. Right... Look at the fuse. If it;s violently blown (shattered glass, or blackened), don't just replace it and try again. There is a major problem i nthe masin side of the PSU. If the fuse has blown softly, replaced it and try the PSU. Of course if the fuse is OK. then try the PSU. The outputs are on those 15 pin AMP connectors on the angled side of the PSU. Standard (DEC) pinout, I can look it up. You want to see if there are any outputs at all, if one particualr output is missing/incorrect, if the entire PSU seems dead, or what. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 13:54:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:54:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at Jul 17, 12 11:33:37 am Message-ID: > > > If the 'Molex' connector is actually a flat white thing with 8 possible > > This one is 2 rows of 3 pins. The Berg connector is wired for EIA as Right, it's non-standard :-) > described on pdp11.nl and the DL11-W's have the driver chips so all > good there. OK, you have 2 choices I guess. Try to find a mating plug for that conenctor, or chop it off and conenct the wires to soemthing else. In either case you need to trace where the wires go to, all you ned are TxD, RxD and Ground. > > > Can you haldt the CPU (IIRC that's ctrl-halt on the keypad panel), > > You are right with ctrl-halt but I get the Bus Error LED rather. You haev grant problems. > > My current configuration is as follows (note that the Grant cards are > all in Row D). > > GRANT M9302 > GRANT > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > M7859 M7859 M9301 > GRANT > M7263 M7263 M7263 > > When I first received the machine the configuration for this 9 > connector section was: > > GRANT M9202 > M7856 M7856 M7850 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > GRANT > M7847 M7847 M7847 > M7859 M7859 M9301 > GRANT > M7263 M7263 M7263 > > so the only difference is the removal of the M7856 and replacement > with a Grant card. I will reinstate the M7856 and see it if makes any > difference. Are yuo using the single-height grant boards (little square things) or the dual-height ones (with handles)? If the former, check you've got them the right way round, the traces towards the M9302 end of the backplane. What I normally do is use a logic proble to see which grant signal is high (yes, grants are active-high, unlike most Unibus signals) at the M9302. Then trace that particular signal trhough all the boards. Most fo the time it's the NPG signal because the jumper is not fitted o nthe backplaen and I'm usin a board that doesn't use or pass through the NPG signal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 14:04:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:04:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: <1342492047.74395.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Jul 16, 12 07:27:27 pm Message-ID: From: Tony Duell > > I am wondering just why this is a 'stupid suggestio= > n'. Why won't fidding with the black level / offset and maybe the gain f= > o the green video amplifier in the monitor improve matter. > > C: I have to say it's gratifying to have someone on the list that at = Hang on... The other day you called me a 'moron' I think... You can't have it both ways :-) > the least has poked their head inside a monitor (evidently Gene has not). I= I was working on monitors ebfore this list even existed. And I shall continue to do so. I don;t believe there's any reason not to, the dangers are much exagerated. In fact the most dangerous voltage you'll meet is the mains (and possibly rectified mains), something you find in many other devices too. I guess the fact that they're mostly analogue circuitry puts some people off, but much of it is not that complicated. > am no expert on monitors, but I've at least the amount of experience to su= > ggest, given I properly understanding the op, this might be the easiest way= > by far to remedy the situation. Actually, and it's been a long time, I had= > thought there would be a single trimpot to adjust the "green level". But l= > ike I said it's been a long time. It depends on the monitor. You need to be able to control the gain and offset (black level) of each colour to get both the highlights and lowlights a neutral grey. Some monitors, particularly the better ones, have 6 presets for this In other cases, one of the presets is not there, in that you can get the right effect using the 5 you do have. Be warned that the official procedure for settign these controls is often involved. Both HP and Barco seem to require the use fo a photomter, something that few people own (I don't have one). But if you're just going for 'it looks OK' then it's not hard to tweak them. Just don't have excessive beam current (brightness) to avoid damage to the CRT and maybe the high voltage supply components (flyback transofrmer, horizontal output transistor, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 17 14:07:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:07:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: <1342494956.23329.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Jul 16, 12 08:15:56 pm Message-ID: > > and in reality I'm struggling to try and understand why or what is > torquing the green signal. I've gone the quick and dirty route and have > added sync signals to green w/a resistor. I was rather flippant in my > selection of a value too. Never had a proble m. But what do I know. Sync-on-green means that the green video signal actually looks like a composite video signal, the sync pulses are 'blacker than black' (they ahve a voltage level below the black level). if the monitor is poorly designed, then the circuit may well take the bottom of the sync signal as the black level (being the lowest voltge on that input), so when the input is at the real black level the montiro displays a dim green. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 17 15:32:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 13:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120717132832.Q73617@shell.lmi.net> > > C\DERP\: I have to say it's gratifying to have someone on the list > > that at the least has poked their head inside a monitor (evidently > > Gene has not). I= On Tue, 17 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Hang on... The other day you called me a 'moron' I think... You can't > have it both ways :-) Why not? Is poking on's head inside a monitor mutually exclusive with being a moron? NB: Tony is not a moron. But he knows more about monitors, computers, and electronics in general than anybody else that I know. > I was working on monitors ebfore this list even existed. And I shall > continue to do so. I don;t believe there's any reason not to, the dangers > are much exagerated. In fact the most dangerous voltage you'll meet is > the mains (and possibly rectified mains), something you find in many > other devices too. OK I'll stick my head back into one From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jul 17 15:22:48 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:22:48 +0000 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B883D3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:24 AM > In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, > Rich Alderson writes: >> How about http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ ? I gave Tim a copy of the >> sources a very very long time ago, and they're still there. Scroll down. > OK, this is not what I was expecting. Apparently while emacs was a > set of macros for TECO, it isn't a set of macros for *standard* TECO, > but only for the heavily modified version of TECO at MIT. The command > set is so divergent from standard TECO, that I hardly recognize the > command set. Well, technically, you have that bass ackwards. TECO ("Tape Editor and COrrector", for paper tapes on the PDP-1) was written at MIT. DEC took it and began making modifications for various hardware, but TECO for ITS on the PDP-10 is a direct descendant of the PDP-1 TECO written by the same guys. (NB: ITS TECO was the first version I learned, ~35 years ago. I get irritated when the DEC versions don't have features I rely on. It's all POV.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 17 15:46:36 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:46:36 -0600 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B883D3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B883D3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B883D3 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson writes: > From: Richard > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:24 AM > > > In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, > > Rich Alderson writes: > > >> How about http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ ? I gave Tim a copy of the > >> sources a very very long time ago, and they're still there. Scroll down. > > > OK, this is not what I was expecting. Apparently while emacs was a > > set of macros for TECO, it isn't a set of macros for *standard* TECO, > > but only for the heavily modified version of TECO at MIT. The command > > set is so divergent from standard TECO, that I hardly recognize the > > command set. > > Well, technically, you have that bass ackwards. Yeah, I know. That's why I referred to the dialect I'm most familiar with as "standard TECO", because that's what the TECO folks at the time called it. At least that's what the documentation I have seen back in 1979-ish and currently as well as issues of "Moby Munger" (TECO SIG newsletter) say on bitsavers. > (NB: ITS TECO was the first version I learned, ~35 years ago. I get > irritated when the DEC versions don't have features I rely on. It's all > POV.) Yeah, the wikipedia page lists ^P as sort, but that's an ITS-ism, not a standard TECO-ism, which is why it confused me when I read that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 17 17:37:42 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:37:42 -0700 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B883D3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B85F0F@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B883D3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5005E936.5010702@jwsss.com> On 7/17/2012 1:22 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > (NB: ITS TECO was the first version I learned, ~35 years ago. I get > irritated when the DEC versions don't have features I rely on. It's all > POV.) I wonder if you or anyone might have looked at the articles on the other editors, qedx and a variant on multics? there was a fellow James Falksen, who wrote it, and it basically took over on multics. I actually used the macro processing language to do a lot when I was using multics and would love to have access to it again. http://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Ted_For_Multics The site might be of interest to those discussing text editors here as well. I'd love to know if someone has thought about porting it from the multics source, or if there might be a way to pull some programs out of the multics source and convert the pl1 to compile in either c++ or c on linux or such. It might be doable with standalone utilities easier than the goal some have of running multics. It also would be vastly more useful running natively on a command line system. All that depends on the license that bull has released it on, and I haven't read or understood that either. I'd have no problem with giving the ownership back to bull as long as it was available, as all I want for now is just to run what was there. Also I haven't looked at the issues of libraries if one were to do that, as some things like the regex pattern matching are probably in libraries, and might not be in the ted source. thanks Jim From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 20:35:04 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:35:04 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > OK, you have 2 choices I guess. Try to find a mating plug for that I checked the wiring with a meter and identified the TXD, RXD and GND wires and have just connected them to a DB9. I believe this machine was last used as part of a medical device which may explain the interesting connector choices. > Are yuo using the single-height grant boards (little square things) or > the dual-height ones (with handles)? If the former, check you've got them > the right way round, the traces towards the M9302 end of the backplane. Yes it certainly looks like a grant issue. I have the little square boards and they are all correctly inserted. Time to get out the logic probe! From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jul 17 23:22:33 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:22:33 -0700 Subject: For Sale: DEC W021B cables and RS11 Disk Drive Write Lockout Panel Message-ID: Hello, all, I have four DEC W021B cables with FlipChip paddles at both ends. The cables are roughly 8 feet long including the paddle boards at both ends. The cables are nine coaxial (signal and ground) cables bonded together into a single flat black cable. The paddle fingers are gold plated, have light surface corrosion on them, and have light signs of insertion/removal from backplane sockets. Each W021B cable has nine signal lines, each with a separate ground. These cables were originally used to connect and RF11 Unibus Disk Controller chassis to an RS11 disk drive based on labels on the paddle boards. The same cables were used to connect peripherals (such as DF32 or RF08/RS08 disk) to the original Flip-Chip based PDP-8 processors (Straight 8, 8I and 8L). The cables are untested. I also have a single RS11 disk drive "Write Lockout" switch panel with cable and paddle connector for connecting it to an RS11 disk drive backplane. This panel provides sixteen toggle switches that can be set to provide write protection for sixteen separate blocks of 16K words on the disk. The panel has a flexible ribbon cable that is about 12 inches long that connects to a Flip Chip paddle connector with a white handle with designation of W033. The switch panel itself is in very good condition, with very clear legends with no dings or dents. The ribbon cable has some slight delamination in some areas, and one trace may not have electrical continuity based on a visual observation. The W033 paddle connector is in very good condition, with virtually no sign that it has ever been plugged into a Flip Chip slot. All of the very high quality switches move freely, and are original switches from the era, with no sign of replacement. The unit is untested. I would like to sell these items. Please read carefully below the "rules" before bidding. Sorry they are so detailed, but I want to make sure that the rules are clearly understood by all. I am accepting offers for each individual item on a per unit basis. For example, bids will be accepted for each of the W021B cables and the RS11 Write Lockout panel assembly separately. Bids must be sent in individual Emails, e.g., do not send a bid giving an offer for all four W021B cables, or one cable and the RS11 write lockout panel. Such bids will be dismissed without notice. Bidders need to send separate Emails with bids for each of the individual items of interest. The items will sell to the highest offer received via Email to me (i-t-e-m-s *at* b-e-n-s-e-n-e *dot* c-o-m [no dashes and substitute correct symbols for *at* and *dot*]) for each item by 11:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time on Sunday 22-July. Bids received at Email addresses other than that listed above will be dismissed without notice. Duplicate bid amounts for an item will be arbitrated by the first Email received in my inbox prior to the deadline. A flat rate charge of $15 will be paid by the winning bidder for packing/shipping unless arranged otherwise. Once the high bidder is determined, they will be notified by return Email on Monday 23-July. Payment shall only be accepted by PayPal, and must be paid in full including shipping within two business days once final costs notification is sent to the winner. If a winner does not respond to notification Emails within the deadline, backs out or fails to pay, the sale is considered to have failed, and the item will not be awarded to lower bidders. If an individual provides the high bid on multiple items, packing/shipping can be combined to minimize costs. Shipping will be done by USPS Flat Rate Priority Mail unless arranged otherwise. Items will ONLY be shipped to continental US locations. I will not ship overseas, or to Alaska, Hawaii, Mexico, or Canada. If you are not from the continental US, please do not bid. Photos of items can be Emailed upon request. Sales shall be final with no returns. If no high bids are received, the items will be auctioned on eBay. I wanted to give the Classic Computer mailing list members first opportunity to acquire these unusual vintage items. Please don't hesitate to write if you have questions about the items. I will do my best to respond promptly. Rick Bensene From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 18 01:43:13 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:43:13 +0200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: snip snip >> Are yuo using the single-height grant boards (little square things) or >> the dual-height ones (with handles)? If the former, check you've got >> them >> the right way round, the traces towards the M9302 end of the backplane. > > Yes it certainly looks like a grant issue. I have the little square > boards and they are all correctly inserted. > You might suffer from an open NPR/NPG line on one of the open slots. This is cured by using dthe double width cards (green handles). The short cards only loop the bus grant lines, hence the 4 loops, but not the NPR/NPG line. Some non DMA cards loop this line on the board itself, others don't. So, you may have to place a small wire on the open NPR/NPG grant line (pin CA1 & CB1) or find a few G7273 cards. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 03:49:31 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:49:31 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the feedback. One of the slots where I added a short grant card previously had an M7856 board. I will have a look at this board in the morning. I understand it doesn't connect the NPG line so it is possible if this is not connected on the backplane that board was wired to connect it. On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 6:43 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > snip snip > >>> Are yuo using the single-height grant boards (little square things) or >>> the dual-height ones (with handles)? If the former, check you've got >>> them >>> the right way round, the traces towards the M9302 end of the backplane. >> >> Yes it certainly looks like a grant issue. I have the little square >> boards and they are all correctly inserted. >> > > You might suffer from an open NPR/NPG line on one of the open slots. > This is cured by using dthe double width cards (green handles). > The short cards only loop the bus grant lines, hence the 4 loops, but > not the NPR/NPG line. > Some non DMA cards loop this line on the board itself, others don't. > So, you may have to place a small wire on the open NPR/NPG grant line > (pin CA1 & CB1) or find a few G7273 cards. > > Ed > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 15:00:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:00:27 -0400 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Today, we collected: > > - 2 x PDP 11/94 > - 8 MicroPDP 11's (4 x /53, /73, /83, 2 x unknown) Nice! -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 15:44:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:44:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: <201207172027.q6HKR77i9044006@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jul 17, 12 01:27:07 pm Message-ID: > > > It depends on the monitor. You need to be able to control the gain and > > offset (black level) of each colour to get both the highlights and > > lowlights a neutral grey. Some monitors, particularly the better ones, > > have 6 presets for this In other cases, one of the presets is not there, > > in that you can get the right effect using the 5 you do have. > > And this is a no go because that monitor is KVMed to several other systems, > not just the Indy. Ah, OK... I didn't rememrb that you were sharing this monitor. Have you tried it without the KVM switchj, just temporarily, in case that's messing about with the signal? I suppose you coudl add extra presets inside the monitor with relays to switch in either hte origianl or new set depending on which grey scale you want, but that _is_ a bit silly... > > In this case, I was able to find a circuit that will separate sync off > the green line into H/V sync, so this should suffice. SI87.com sells them > as well. Be casreful. Most such circuits (based on the LM1881 or improved versions thereof) simply extract the sync signals from the Sync-on-green composite signal, but leave the signal unchaged to be fed to the green input of the monitor. They do not clip off the sync signals and thus leave a green video signal where the most -ve value is the black level. If that's the case with the circuit you are using, it will nto make much (if any) difference. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 15:49:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:49:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: <20120717132832.Q73617@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 17, 12 01:32:03 pm Message-ID: > > > > C\DERP\: I have to say it's gratifying to have someone on the list > > > that at the least has poked their head inside a monitor (evidently > > > Gene has not). I= > On Tue, 17 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hang on... The other day you called me a 'moron' I think... You can't > > have it both ways :-) > > Why not? Is poking on's head inside a monitor mutually exclusive with > being a moron? No, hence the smiley... Much of the time I _am_ a moron... > NB: Tony is not a moron. But he knows more about monitors, computers, and > electronics in general than anybody else that I know. Thanks, but that is actually untrue, assuming you know other people on this list at least as well as you know me. > > > I was working on monitors ebfore this list even existed. And I shall > > continue to do so. I don;t believe there's any reason not to, the dangers > > are much exagerated. In fact the most dangerous voltage you'll meet is > > the mains (and possibly rectified mains), something you find in many > > other devices too. > > OK > I'll stick my head back into one I didn';t say they were totally safe :-). But a lot of the fears are unfounded. Modern rimbanded CRTs are unlikely to violently implode unless they've been tampered with. It is very hard to accidentally come into contact with the EHT (supply to the final anode), it really ezists only within the potted flyback transformer, and the cable/conenctor to the CRT. You are not going to fid it on PCB traces, etc. The mains is an ever present hazard, of coruse, and one that can easily be lethal. Many colour monitos use SMPSus with about 350V DC derrived from the mains, and that is on bare PCB tracks. But you find that in computer PSUs too, and for some reason I don't find the same reluctance when I suggest that sombondy has a go at repairing, say, an H777 PSU as I do when I suggest they do the same to a monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 18 15:56:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:56:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at Jul 18, 12 01:35:04 pm Message-ID: > > > OK, you have 2 choices I guess. Try to find a mating plug for that > > I checked the wiring with a meter and identified the TXD, RXD and GND > wires and have just connected them to a DB9. I believe this machine You mean a DE9 :-) Jsut out of curiousity, what to the other 3 pins of that Berg go to? > was last used as part of a medical device which may explain the > interesting connector choices. > > > Are yuo using the single-height grant boards (little square things) or > > the dual-height ones (with handles)? If the former, check you've got them > > the right way round, the traces towards the M9302 end of the backplane. > > Yes it certainly looks like a grant issue. I have the little square > boards and they are all correctly inserted. Then it's most likely a missing NPG jumper. This is a wire-wrapped jumper on the backplane between pins CA1 and CB1 of a SPC slot. It has to be cut if there's a NPR device (one that does DMA, like an RL11 or RX211) in that slot, it has to be fitted if the slot is empty (other than the grand contiuity card in connector D), or if there's a device there that maks no connection to those pins. And finallym, it doens't matter whether it's there or not if there's a device there that simply shorts the pins together (like a DZ11) If you find the misisng jumper you have sevral choices. One is to pull the backplane and fit a wire-wrapped link between the pins. I normally use red or orange wire for this so it's easy to spot if I want to remvoe it later. If it's an empty slot, yuo could use one of the later dual-height continuity cards if you have one. Or cut a sliver or single-sided copper clad board ot slid into that conenctor (copper side towards the CPU) and just short those pins togehter. If it's a slot with a card in it that maks no connection to pins CA1 and CB1, then you could solder a link between those edge fingers on the card. -tony From saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Jul 18 11:50:26 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cable ID? Message-ID: <8CF331C908BB219-1CF4-8576@webmail-d017.sysops.aol.com> I have two cables that I've been trying to figure out what they're for. They're both commercial, with molded-in ends. The one that I've gotten furthest on is a video/keyboard cable of some sort, 8-ft long, DA-15F on one end with a box on the other end splitting out into what appears to be PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports (Mini-DIN 6, labelled "KBD" and "MOUSE") and 3BNC R/G/B video connectors. If it was LK-style I'd think DEC, as it is I was thinking X-Terminal, but all the X-terminal pictures I've seen have local keyboard ports and more "ordinary" graphics connectors. There is a part number, 012-1369-00, that when Googled comes up as Tektronix 4200/4300 workstation, but again those don't seem to have the right ports. No manufacturer name. Second has no markings. 9-ft 13W3F to 13W3M, which seems simple enough, but the signals are put through two separate cables and the RGBS portion is broken in the middle and there are two sets of BNC M connectors on them. Other pins are wired straight through. Perhaps connects to some sort of splitter? From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jul 18 12:27:52 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:27:52 -0400 Subject: Cable ID? In-Reply-To: <8CF331C908BB219-1CF4-8576@webmail-d017.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF331C908BB219-1CF4-8576@webmail-d017.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5006F218.9000801@atarimuseum.com> Photo's would help.... Scott Quinn wrote: > I have two cables that I've been trying to figure out what they're for. They're both commercial, with molded-in ends. > > The one that I've gotten furthest on is a video/keyboard cable of some sort, 8-ft long, DA-15F on one end with a box on the other end splitting out into what appears to be PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports (Mini-DIN 6, labelled "KBD" and "MOUSE") and 3BNC R/G/B video connectors. If it was LK-style I'd think DEC, as it is I was thinking X-Terminal, but all the X-terminal pictures I've seen have local keyboard ports and more "ordinary" graphics connectors. There is a part number, 012-1369-00, that when Googled comes up as Tektronix 4200/4300 workstation, but again those don't seem to have the right ports. No manufacturer name. > > Second has no markings. 9-ft 13W3F to 13W3M, which seems simple enough, but the signals are put through two separate cables and the RGBS portion is broken in the middle and there are two sets of BNC M connectors on them. Other pins are wired straight through. Perhaps connects to some sort of splitter? > > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 14:26:45 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:26:45 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today, we fetched a second and third load of goodies. For now, this is the last bit, although there may be a little more in a few months. Updated pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146. Today, we collected: PDP Stuff: - PDP 11/05 ( = OEM version of PDP11/10) - PDP 11/34 - 2 x PDP 11/94 - 8 MicroPDP 11's (4 x /53, /73, /83, 2 x unknown) - Monitors and keyboards for the PRO's VAX Stuff: - 2 x MicroVAX II - MicroVAX III - 3 x pedestal VAX (4000, 3000) - 5 x pizzabox VAX (3000) MIPS Stuff: - 4 x DECstation pizzabox Alpha Stuff: - DEC 4000 AXP model 610 - AlphaStation 250 - Multia Terminals: - DECwriter III - DECwriter Correspondent - ADM 3A - Various VTxxx Various: - storageboxes - TU58 - Cipher 1/2" 9-track tapedrive Camiel. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 14:40:39 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:40:39 -0500 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Camiel, Great find! In the picture of the LA120, what monitor is behind it? It seems to have a light pen, but doesn't look like a VR14 ot 17. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Today, we fetched a second and third load of goodies. For now, this is > the last bit, although there may be a little more in a few months. > > Updated pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146. > > Today, we collected: > > PDP Stuff: > - PDP 11/05 ( = OEM version of PDP11/10) > - PDP 11/34 > - 2 x PDP 11/94 > - 8 MicroPDP 11's (4 x /53, /73, /83, 2 x unknown) > - Monitors and keyboards for the PRO's > > VAX Stuff: > - 2 x MicroVAX II > - MicroVAX III > - 3 x pedestal VAX (4000, 3000) > - 5 x pizzabox VAX (3000) > > MIPS Stuff: > - 4 x DECstation pizzabox > > Alpha Stuff: > - DEC 4000 AXP model 610 > - AlphaStation 250 > - Multia > > Terminals: > - DECwriter III > - DECwriter Correspondent > - ADM 3A > - Various VTxxx > > Various: > - storageboxes > - TU58 > - Cipher 1/2" 9-track tapedrive > > Camiel. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 14:42:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:42:04 -0300 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th References: Message-ID: You're "VAX Rich"! :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Megahaul on July 4th > Today, we fetched a second and third load of goodies. For now, this is > the last bit, although there may be a little more in a few months. > > Updated pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146. > > Today, we collected: > > PDP Stuff: > - PDP 11/05 ( = OEM version of PDP11/10) > - PDP 11/34 > - 2 x PDP 11/94 > - 8 MicroPDP 11's (4 x /53, /73, /83, 2 x unknown) > - Monitors and keyboards for the PRO's > > VAX Stuff: > - 2 x MicroVAX II > - MicroVAX III > - 3 x pedestal VAX (4000, 3000) > - 5 x pizzabox VAX (3000) > > MIPS Stuff: > - 4 x DECstation pizzabox > > Alpha Stuff: > - DEC 4000 AXP model 610 > - AlphaStation 250 > - Multia > > Terminals: > - DECwriter III > - DECwriter Correspondent > - ADM 3A > - Various VTxxx > > Various: > - storageboxes > - TU58 > - Cipher 1/2" 9-track tapedrive > > Camiel. From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Jul 18 14:51:48 2012 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:51:48 -0700 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500713D4.4080304@crash.com> On 07/18/2012 12:42 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > You're "VAX Rich"! :oD "Trust not a man who's rich in VAX His muscles may be sadly lax" From microcode at zoho.com Wed Jul 18 14:57:55 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:57:55 +0000 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <500713D4.4080304@crash.com> References: <500713D4.4080304@crash.com> Message-ID: <201207181958.q6IJw3lP042302@billy.ezwind.net> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 12:51:48 -0700 Steven M Jones wrote: > On 07/18/2012 12:42 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > > You're "VAX Rich"! :oD > > "Trust not a man who's rich in VAX > His muscles may be sadly lax" Not after moving all that stuff they ain't! NICE haul! From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jul 18 15:03:31 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:03:31 -0700 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50071693.8040709@jwsss.com> Your stack which contains the cisco switches and the monitor Paul anderson asked about has a cardboard box on the deck at the bottom of the pile. My experience is this is not an optimum way to stack such things, Hopefully it won't collapse and knock out any other piles. http://flic.kr/p/crnC9q DSC_2387 Jim From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 18 15:14:59 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 22:14:59 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401cd6522$052310d0$0f693270$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Camiel Vanderhoeven > Verzonden: woensdag 18 juli 2012 21:27 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On- > Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: Megahaul on July 4th > > Today, we fetched a second and third load of goodies. For now, this is the last > bit, although there may be a little more in a few months. > > Updated pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146. > > Today, we collected: > > PDP Stuff: > - PDP 11/05 ( = OEM version of PDP11/10) > - PDP 11/34 > - 2 x PDP 11/94 > - 8 MicroPDP 11's (4 x /53, /73, /83, 2 x unknown) > - Monitors and keyboards for the PRO's > > VAX Stuff: > - 2 x MicroVAX II > - MicroVAX III > - 3 x pedestal VAX (4000, 3000) > - 5 x pizzabox VAX (3000) > > MIPS Stuff: > - 4 x DECstation pizzabox > > Alpha Stuff: > - DEC 4000 AXP model 610 > - AlphaStation 250 > - Multia > > Terminals: > - DECwriter III > - DECwriter Correspondent > - ADM 3A > - Various VTxxx > > Various: > - storageboxes > - TU58 > - Cipher 1/2" 9-track tapedrive > > Camiel. Nice work, who's attic you robbed ? Fred or Kees ? ;-) -Rik From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jul 18 15:55:16 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 21:55:16 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18/07/2012 20:40, "Paul Anderson" wrote: > Hi Camiel, > > Great find! > > In the picture of the LA120, what monitor is behind it? It seems to > have a light pen, but doesn't look like a VR14 ot 17. > That's a VAXmate isn't it? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Jul 18 20:49:57 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 01:49:57 +0000 Subject: IBM ThinkPad 760XD Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi there! I know it's not as interesting as non-Intel-based stuff, but I just picked up an ex-NASA ThinkPad 760XD and thought I'd poke at it a while given it's connection to the Shuttle Program. Does anyone know anything about these older IBM ThinkPads? This one came to me missing it's battery and hard drive/caddy assembly. The battery's not so big a deal, but finding the right hard drive and caddy has been pain. I'm a big fan of "stock", so I did some research and looks like the "high-end" drive for this thing back in the day was the 3.0GB IBM DLGA-23080. I'd also picked up an after-market drive caddy, but as it turns out the DLGA-23080 is too tall for the caddy... Anyone know if the DLGA-23080 had a special caddy, and where I might find the right one that's genuine IBM? Or, am I completely mistaken and the "stock" 3.0GB drive for the ThinkPad 760XD is a different model? I can't find a good FRU list anywhere... Anyway, many, many thanks in advance for the help!! -Ben From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 18 22:34:59 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:34:59 -0400 Subject: IBM ThinkPad 760XD References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: Using www.pchub.com the correct adapter for the 760XD is : http://www.pchub.com/uph/laptop/38-38477-513/IBM-Thinkpad-760XD-9546-A9E-HDD-Caddy-Adapter.html $7.89 free shipping for the holder, you still need a drive. Cover says 1.2GB. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Huntsman" To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:49 PM Subject: IBM ThinkPad 760XD From wolfgang at eichberger.org Thu Jul 19 00:20:21 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 07:20:21 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the small dec racks are a nice find too. they do not pop up very often now.... 2012/7/18 Adrian Graham > > > > On 18/07/2012 20:40, "Paul Anderson" wrote: > > > Hi Camiel, > > > > Great find! > > > > In the picture of the LA120, what monitor is behind it? It seems to > > have a light pen, but doesn't look like a VR14 ot 17. > > > > That's a VAXmate isn't it? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 19 01:42:03 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 00:42:03 -0600 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paul Anderson writes: > In the picture of the LA120, what monitor is behind it? It seems to > have a light pen, but doesn't look like a VR14 ot 17. I thought that was a floppy drive, not a light pen. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 02:13:48 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:13:48 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/18/12, Paul Anderson wrote: > In the picture of the LA120, what monitor is behind it? It seems to > have a light pen, but doesn't look like a VR14 ot 17. That's a VAXmate. It's a floppy drive rather than a light pen. Camiel. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 02:14:52 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:14:52 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/19/12, Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > the small dec racks are a nice find too. they do not pop up very often > now.... Yes, they'll need a little TLC though. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 02:17:24 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:17:24 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <50071693.8040709@jwsss.com> References: <50071693.8040709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 7/18/12, jim s wrote: > Your stack which contains the cisco switches and the monitor Paul > anderson asked about has a cardboard box on the deck at the bottom of > the pile. My experience is this is not an optimum way to stack such > things, Hopefully it won't collapse and knock out any other piles. I'd agree with you if it weren't for a little bit of special knowledge; that box has some big power supply bricks in it that snugly fit all three dimensions of the box. Camiel. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 19 06:42:38 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 13:42:38 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801cd65a3$9c941f00$d5bc5d00$@xs4all.nl> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/index.html ? -Rik From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 07:05:19 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:05:19 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <002801cd65a3$9c941f00$d5bc5d00$@xs4all.nl> References: <002801cd65a3$9c941f00$d5bc5d00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 7/19/12, Rik Bos wrote: > http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/index.html ? > > -Rik Good guess! Fred (pictured there on the left) is the gentleman who asked me to take care of most of his collection. Camiel. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 07:10:53 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:10:53 +0200 Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards Message-ID: Hi everyone, I'm getting ready to see if I can get all those PDP-11's running properly. I have most of the test equipment I'm likely to meet - multimeter, oscilloscope, current tracer, logic analyzer - but figured that extender cards for Qbus and Unibus might come in very handy. Does anyone have any they'd be willing to part with? Camiel. From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Jul 19 07:23:51 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:23:51 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <002801cd65a3$9c941f00$d5bc5d00$@xs4all.nl> References: <002801cd65a3$9c941f00$d5bc5d00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201207191223.q6JCNpPn024478@ls-al.eu> "Rik Bos" wrote: > http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/index.html ? > What a machine... *drool* re, Sander From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 19 07:41:51 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:41:51 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: <002801cd65a3$9c941f00$d5bc5d00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002901cd65ab$e215b9a0$a6412ce0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Camiel Vanderhoeven > Verzonden: donderdag 19 juli 2012 14:05 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Megahaul on July 4th > > On 7/19/12, Rik Bos wrote: > > http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/index.html ? > > > > -Rik > > Good guess! Fred (pictured there on the left) is the gentleman who asked me to > take care of most of his collection. > > Camiel. It was the biggest 'new' DEC collection in our small country..;P I've visited Fred a few times in the past, before I focused on HP and released all me DEC stuff. At that time about 6-7 years ago, he was trying to sell his collection because he wanted to move to the USA to start a business there.. -Rik From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 13:29:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: <201207182256.q6IMuv2Q12582976@floodgap.com> References: <201207182256.q6IMuv2Q12582976@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120719112806.M52255@shell.lmi.net> > > Have you tried it without the KVM switchj, just temporarily, in case > > that's messing about with the signal? On Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It's a mechanical KVM switch. Not much going on there. Unintended resistance/impedance and capacitance? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 19 13:53:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:53:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sync on something other than green for the sake of all that is In-Reply-To: <201207182256.q6IMuv2Q12582976@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jul 18, 12 03:56:56 pm Message-ID: > > Have you tried it without the KVM switchj, just temporarily, in case > > that's messing about with the signal? > > It's a mechanical KVM switch. Not much going on there. Obviosuly I've not seen your setup, and you are probably right, but I rememebr a rule I learnt the hard way many years ago : 'That which is obviosuly correct, beyond all need of checking, is the problem'. I am almost sure, thoguh that your problem is down to poor design of the monitor. What it needs to do is sample the video signal in the back porch [1] (the time between the end of the sync pulse and the start of the actual video information) and take that to be the black level. Unless you have schematics for the monitor and enjoy designing video circuits, there's no real way to solve this. [1] I am told that the schematic for one of the Tektronix video test monitors has a cartoon of a back porch on the diagram for the sample-control part of this circuit. And a $\phi$ in a prison cell for the 'phase correction' part of the horizontal sync circuit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 19 14:06:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:06:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jul 19, 12 02:10:53 pm Message-ID: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm getting ready to see if I can get all those PDP-11's running > properly. I have most of the test equipment I'm likely to meet - > multimeter, oscilloscope, current tracer, logic analyzer - but figured > that extender cards for Qbus and Unibus might come in very handy. Does The same extenders work for Unibus and Qbus, and indeed Omnibus (PDP8/e, etc) and several otehr things. They're jsut straingth-through tracks to conencotr blocks. You need (at least) a hex-height and a quad-height one. Dual height is useful too. My set is _not_ up for grabs :-) Be warned that some machines (the 11/44 sprigns to mind) behave oddly if soem of their PCBs are put on extnders. I can't rememebr if it's a delay or noise/coupling problem (probably ythe latter), but I was led a merry dance when I was trying to sort out the cache in my 11/44 and only after a lot oftets did I realise this darn thing won't work if the cache board is on an extender. If you can;t find the extender boards, the well-known trick of soldering wires to the points of interest, putting the PCB back i nthe machine, powering up, and probing the ends of the wires works fine in a lot of cases. It's slower than using the extender, of course. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jul 19 11:53:17 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:53:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM ThinkPad 760XD In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Hi there! > I know it's not as interesting as non-Intel-based stuff, but I just > picked up an ex-NASA ThinkPad 760XD and thought I'd poke at it a while > given it's connection to the Shuttle Program. > Does anyone know anything about these older IBM ThinkPads? This one > came to me missing it's battery and hard drive/caddy assembly. The > battery's not so big a deal, but finding the right hard drive and caddy > has been pain. I'm a big fan of "stock", so I did some research and > looks like the "high-end" drive for this thing back in the day was the > 3.0GB IBM DLGA-23080. I'd also picked up an after-market drive caddy, > but as it turns out the DLGA-23080 is too tall for the caddy... Anyone > know if the DLGA-23080 had a special caddy, and where I might find the > right one that's genuine IBM? Or, am I completely mistaken and the > "stock" 3.0GB drive for the ThinkPad 760XD is a different model? I > can't find a good FRU list anywhere... It could be IBM made several models of 3GB Travelstar drives, but I'm not that familiar with the 3GB size drives. The 3GB drives were an intermediate consumer-size drive (meaning they didn't use the full capacity of the platters) and we skipped over them when going from 1-2GB to 4GB. I do have a now non-functional 3GB engineering sample/prototype 3GB drive laying around that I can measure if that would be helpful. Was the machine just limited to 9.5mm high drives instead of 12.5mm? 9.5mm are pretty easy to find on the second hand market, and if you want to stay semi-original, a 4GB Travelstar (IBM/Hitachi) was certainly available in a 9.5mm height. Going for maximum capacity, two platter 160GB and 320GB drives were available in 2.5" parallel ATA, but stocks are now beginning to run low and they are currently somewhat expensive when compared with larger SATA drives. Due to BIOS limitations, large drives also wouldn't work well with older operating systems without using Diskmanager or some other sort of DDO (dynamic drive overlay). From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 11:59:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 11:59:29 -0500 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thants for the update. It might have been wishful thinking on my part. I'm making an appt to get my new glasses today... Paul On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On 7/18/12, Paul Anderson wrote: >> In the picture of the LA120, what monitor is behind it? It seems to >> have a light pen, but doesn't look like a VR14 ot 17. > > That's a VAXmate. It's a floppy drive rather than a light pen. > > Camiel. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jul 19 12:31:38 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:31:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM ThinkPad 760XD In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > I'm a big fan of "stock", so I did some research and looks like the > "high-end" drive for this thing back in the day was the 3.0GB IBM > DLGA-23080. I'd also picked up an after-market drive caddy, but as it > turns out the DLGA-23080 is too tall for the caddy... Anyone know if > the DLGA-23080 had a special caddy, and where I might find the right one > that's genuine IBM? Or, am I completely mistaken and the "stock" 3.0GB > drive for the ThinkPad 760XD is a different model? I can't find a good > FRU list anywhere... According to the datasheet, the DLGA-23080 is a 17mm high drive, which certainly won't fit very many laptops. Only a few manufacturers had machines which would accept these type of "enterprise" drives. Because of the large number of platters (typically 4) I can't recommend these at all for use today due to reliability issues. 4GB drives appear to have become somewhat scarce, but a quick search turned up some of these IBM FRUs and model numbers. Although they might not have been original to that specific machine, if you want to just find a drive that "works" and is somewhat reliable, these series drives might be a place to start. I think all of these are 9.5mm or 12.5mm, but I've not verified that so you'll need to double check. Travelstar 6GB 07N5650 DJSA-210 Travelstar 6GB 31L9764 DARA-206000 ASM P/N 05K9221 FRU P/N 05K9227 Travelstar 10GB 07N6453 DJSA-210 ASM P/N 08K9504 FRU P/N 08K9508 Travelstar 12GB 059223 DJSA-220 Travelstar 12GB 31L9749 DARA-212000 ASM P/N 05K9223 FRU P/N 05K9229 Travelstar 20GB 07N6017 DJSA-220 ASM P/N 27L3426 FRU P/N 27L3427 Travelstar 20GB 07N6017 DJSA-220 ASM P/N 27L4074 FRU P/N 27L4075 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 12:38:28 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:38:28 -0300 Subject: IBM ThinkPad 760XD References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E722193A45@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <7F18A48A9B0547099E236569007685F6@tababook> If I'm not mistaken, I've put 20 and 40 gb drives on these 760 notebooks and they work fine. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:31 PM Subject: Re: IBM ThinkPad 760XD > On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > >> I'm a big fan of "stock", so I did some research and looks like the >> "high-end" drive for this thing back in the day was the 3.0GB IBM >> DLGA-23080. I'd also picked up an after-market drive caddy, but as it >> turns out the DLGA-23080 is too tall for the caddy... Anyone know if the >> DLGA-23080 had a special caddy, and where I might find the right one >> that's genuine IBM? Or, am I completely mistaken and the "stock" 3.0GB >> drive for the ThinkPad 760XD is a different model? I can't find a good >> FRU list anywhere... > > According to the datasheet, the DLGA-23080 is a 17mm high drive, which > certainly won't fit very many laptops. Only a few manufacturers had > machines which would accept these type of "enterprise" drives. Because of > the large number of platters (typically 4) I can't recommend these at all > for use today due to reliability issues. > > 4GB drives appear to have become somewhat scarce, but a quick search > turned up some of these IBM FRUs and model numbers. Although they might > not have been original to that specific machine, if you want to just find > a drive that "works" and is somewhat reliable, these series drives might > be a place to start. I think all of these are 9.5mm or 12.5mm, but I've > not verified that so you'll need to double check. > > Travelstar 6GB 07N5650 DJSA-210 > Travelstar 6GB 31L9764 DARA-206000 > ASM P/N 05K9221 > FRU P/N 05K9227 > > Travelstar 10GB 07N6453 DJSA-210 > ASM P/N 08K9504 > FRU P/N 08K9508 > > Travelstar 12GB 059223 DJSA-220 > Travelstar 12GB 31L9749 DARA-212000 > ASM P/N 05K9223 > FRU P/N 05K9229 > > Travelstar 20GB 07N6017 DJSA-220 > ASM P/N 27L3426 > FRU P/N 27L3427 > > Travelstar 20GB 07N6017 DJSA-220 > ASM P/N 27L4074 > FRU P/N 27L4075 From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 14:57:33 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:57:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can use a dual and quad together in place of a hex. Paul On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I'm getting ready to see if I can get all those PDP-11's running >> properly. I have most of the test equipment I'm likely to meet - >> multimeter, oscilloscope, current tracer, logic analyzer - but figured >> that extender cards for Qbus and Unibus might come in very handy. Does > > The same extenders work for Unibus and Qbus, and indeed Omnibus (PDP8/e, > etc) and several otehr things. They're jsut straingth-through tracks to > conencotr blocks. > > You need (at least) a hex-height and a quad-height one. Dual height is > useful too. My set is _not_ up for grabs :-) > > Be warned that some machines (the 11/44 sprigns to mind) behave oddly if > soem of their PCBs are put on extnders. I can't rememebr if it's a delay > or noise/coupling problem (probably ythe latter), but I was led a merry > dance when I was trying to sort out the cache in my 11/44 and only after > a lot oftets did I realise this darn thing won't work if the cache board > is on an extender. > > If you can;t find the extender boards, the well-known trick of soldering > wires to the points of interest, putting the PCB back i nthe machine, > powering up, and probing the ends of the wires works fine in a lot of > cases. It's slower than using the extender, of course. > > -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jul 19 17:39:22 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 15:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage IC and INMOS transputer parts for sale in Vancouver, WA Message-ID: <1342737562.2329.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello, Buddy in Vancouver WA has stuff to sell, contact him for more info: ===================================================================== Buddy says: I have some vintage ICs that I am trying to sale. Some of them are INMOS transputer boards and documents. Buddy Woodberry buddy-l at qwest.net Vancouver WA ===================================================================== I posted his pictures here: http://oldcomputers.net/temp/pic1.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/pic2.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/pic3.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/pic4.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/pic5.jpg From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 22:12:07 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 22:12:07 -0500 Subject: pertec rk05 rack ebay listing :'( my F bomb alert. ran frustration Message-ID: sigh theres a buisnes partner fight going on and i am caught in the midle GAH!!!!!!! to tune of 1300 bucks.......... something i paid for has been relisted under the partners new account sent him a msg unhappy don't bid http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Equipment-Pertec-T6840-9-45-U2-DEC-PDP8-S-Digital-Equipment-/200795357084?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec055ff9c an ebay complaint has been filled and reported blah blah blah i have now got a paypal dispute finally txs to this re-listing and its pretty esay to prove its the same item the origonal listing i won from user uncolect whos sold me many things befor this happened and shipped them so i am upset wish he coulda phoned me i only left him my number half a dozen times......... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160748462238&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123 i feel like crying all i wanted was my rk05's and pertec god damit why did it have to come to this now what am i guna do with my pertect interface card i got :"( From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 23:12:36 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 23:12:36 -0500 Subject: road trip from Champaign, IL to Denver, CO and back Message-ID: One of my sons will be driving to the Denver area next week and will have a limited amount of space and time to drop things off if I have anything you might need. Also, If you have some DEC items, I might be interested in working out a trade. Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Jul 20 09:12:29 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:12:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120720141229.GA32105@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 02:10:53PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm getting ready to see if I can get all those PDP-11's running > properly. I have most of the test equipment I'm likely to meet - > multimeter, oscilloscope, current tracer, logic analyzer - but figured > that extender cards for Qbus and Unibus might come in very handy. Does > anyone have any they'd be willing to part with? > I think you can get them from this company if you don't find them. http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html From gilcarrick at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 09:46:35 2012 From: gilcarrick at gmail.com (Gilcarrick) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:46:35 -0500 Subject: See the ENIAC in person - well, part of it anyway. Message-ID: <002901cd6686$76839c80$638ad580$@com> The 3rd annual Vintage Computer Festival Southwest http://vintage.org/2012/southwest/ is this August 4th-5th. We will feature a tour of the Ross Perot collection http://mit-a.com/perotcollection.shtml of vintage computing, including several sections of the original ENIAC computer. ? We will also be adding a special tour of the Cowboy Stadium IT infrastructure. http://mit-a.com/CowboyStadiumTour.shtml The regular tour lasts an hour and a half - this one will run slightly longer. The group tours cost $20 and everyone says it is definitely worth it. We will need to have at least 15 or so people for this tour, and will need to sign up (and pay) in advance.? ? The VCF SW 3.0 will be at UT Arlington. http://www.uta.edu/uta/ More exhibitors, vendors, and speakers are registering frequently, so check the website. We are still looking for exhibitors, vendors, and volunteers (who get to attend free.) Gil -- A. G. (Gil) Carrick Director Museum of Information Technology at Arlington 1012 Portofino Drive Arlington, TX 76012 817-264-MITA (6482) - gil.carrick (Skype) http://MIT-A.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 16:40:10 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:40:10 -0400 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: References: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> <5009B7E5.6090601@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Mark Benson wrote: >> I think $80 for an untested A500 without power supply is expensive. Agreed. > Or worse still if it's got a RTC the battery may have leaked and damaged > the logic board. The RTC battery is on the memory expansion module. They still leak and damage the board, but it's not the main board, it's a replaceable board. -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 11:24:08 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:24:08 -0400 Subject: See the ENIAC in person - well, part of it anyway. In-Reply-To: <002901cd6686$76839c80$638ad580$@com> References: <002901cd6686$76839c80$638ad580$@com> Message-ID: That's pretty darned cool. What parts of Eniac are in the collection? I was at the Smithsonian museum of American History a few years ago and they had the accumulator panels, IIRC. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jul 20 12:20:09 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:20:09 -0700 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca Message-ID: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> Not my listing, but close to my house if anyone is interested and needs help. http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/3151437047.html From lists at loomcom.com Fri Jul 20 12:24:39 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:24:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards In-Reply-To: <20120720141229.GA32105@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20120720141229.GA32105@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <9AFB7B5D-CA38-488B-92D7-F3E1EC475BC1@loomcom.com> On Jul 20, 2012, at 7:12 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 02:10:53PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> I'm getting ready to see if I can get all those PDP-11's running >> properly. I have most of the test equipment I'm likely to meet - >> multimeter, oscilloscope, current tracer, logic analyzer - but figured >> that extender cards for Qbus and Unibus might come in very handy. Does >> anyone have any they'd be willing to part with? >> > I think you can get them from this company if you don't find them. > > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html Yes, I just ordered extenders from Douglas Electronics on Wednesday. They even mentioned to me that someone else had just ordered the same things I did (a quad and a dual), so I guess DEC extenders are suddenly popular :) -Seth From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 20 12:37:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:37:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards In-Reply-To: <9AFB7B5D-CA38-488B-92D7-F3E1EC475BC1@loomcom.com> References: <20120720141229.GA32105@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <9AFB7B5D-CA38-488B-92D7-F3E1EC475BC1@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <5009976E.10309@neurotica.com> On 07/20/2012 01:24 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >>> I'm getting ready to see if I can get all those PDP-11's running >>> properly. I have most of the test equipment I'm likely to meet - >>> multimeter, oscilloscope, current tracer, logic analyzer - but figured >>> that extender cards for Qbus and Unibus might come in very handy. Does >>> anyone have any they'd be willing to part with? >>> >> I think you can get them from this company if you don't find them. >> >> http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > Yes, I just ordered extenders from Douglas Electronics on Wednesday. They even mentioned to me that someone else had just ordered the same things I did (a quad and a dual), so I guess DEC extenders are suddenly popular :) Funny! I'll be ordering a set after next payday. I had a quad but I can't seem to find it. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 20 12:48:06 2012 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:48:06 -0400 Subject: Dilog MQ606 manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500999D6.2040107@heeltoe.com> I think this has been asked before, but I didn't find any answer. Basic googling didn't find anything except a dead link to a "bluefeathertech" ftp site to a file tantalizingly called "mq606.zip" I have an Dilog QBUS MQ606 controller card but no docs. I think it will connect to 2x ST506 MFM drives. But I think I need to tell it the geometry of the drives and so I suspect there is some firmware I need to run to configure the card.... But who knows. Anyone have a scanned copy of the Dilog MQ606 manual? thanks! -brad From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Jul 20 12:59:34 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:59:34 -0400 Subject: Dilog MQ606 manual? In-Reply-To: <500999D6.2040107@heeltoe.com> References: <500999D6.2040107@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Is this it? http://www.miim.com/documents/dilog/mq606.zip Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-20, at 1:48 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > I think this has been asked before, but I didn't find any answer. Basic googling didn't find anything except a dead > link to a "bluefeathertech" ftp site to a file tantalizingly called "mq606.zip" > > I have an Dilog QBUS MQ606 controller card but no docs. I think it will connect to 2x ST506 MFM drives. But I think I need to tell > it the geometry of the drives and so I suspect there is some firmware I need to run to configure the card.... But who knows. > > Anyone have a scanned copy of the Dilog MQ606 manual? > > thanks! > > -brad > From lists at loomcom.com Fri Jul 20 13:38:16 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:38:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for Unibus and Qbus extender cards In-Reply-To: <5009976E.10309@neurotica.com> References: <20120720141229.GA32105@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <9AFB7B5D-CA38-488B-92D7-F3E1EC475BC1@loomcom.com> <5009976E.10309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120720183816.GA5706@mail.loomcom.com> * On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 01:37:50PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Funny! I'll be ordering a set after next payday. I had a quad but I > can't seem to find it. :-( Yeah they are... spendy. But I guess it's supply and demand. I really need to get some serious debugging done this weekend, so I hope mine show up today. If not, I'll have to do the old "solder wires to the chip leads you want to test and reinstall the card" trick :/ > -Dave -Seth From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jul 20 14:56:21 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 15:56:21 -0400 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> References: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5009B7E5.6090601@verizon.net> On 7/20/2012 1:20 PM, jim s wrote: > Not my listing, but close to my house if anyone is interested and needs > help. > > http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/3151437047.html Jim, Thanks for posting this. I think $80 for an untested A500 without power supply is expensive. Plus, once you factor in shipping, you could be dealing with a $100 brick. Or you could end up with a partially working, but a couple fried CIA chips. It might be right at half that price, maybe. Keith From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 20 16:27:45 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:27:45 -0400 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca References: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> <5009B7E5.6090601@verizon.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Monahan" To: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca > On 7/20/2012 1:20 PM, jim s wrote: >> Not my listing, but close to my house if anyone is interested and needs >> help. >> >> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/3151437047.html > > Jim, > > Thanks for posting this. > > I think $80 for an untested A500 without power supply is expensive. Plus, > once you factor in shipping, you could be dealing with a $100 brick. Or > you could end up with a partially working, but a couple fried CIA chips. > > It might be right at half that price, maybe. > > Keith > It's craigslist nobody pays the asking price so they jack up the prices for room to negotiate. From md.benson at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 16:29:10 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 22:29:10 +0100 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: <5009B7E5.6090601@verizon.net> References: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> <5009B7E5.6090601@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I think $80 for an untested A500 without power supply is expensive. Plus, once you factor in shipping, you could be dealing with a $100 brick. Or you could end up with a partially working, but a couple fried CIA chips. > > It might be right at half that price, maybe. Or worse still if it's got a RTC the battery may have leaked and damaged the logic board. From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 02:44:50 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:44:50 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Spent a few hours today with the unibus documentation, meter and scope and have concluded there are no breaks in the NPG / NPR / BG4-7 or BR4-7 lines on the 9 socket backplane. It is possible that some of the HALT / Bus Error problem might be with the KY11-LB.... some of the keys on the keypad don't return the correct values on the display when pressed. Specifically 3 and 6 which cause the display to show 1 and 4. These happen to be on the same READ cycle as the CTRL and DEP buttons. My initial thought was a problem with the 7404 that controls the READ signal but that looks OK on the scope. I will pull the keypad off tomorrow and make sure it isn't something in the switch matrix. Not sure if anyone else has seen similar issues with the KY11? I need to get back to the M7856 serial cable and replace the Molex with a DE9 (well spotted Tony... I never realized that DB9 was not the right name). It may be that the machine is powering up fine and the console emulator works even if the KY11-LB is misbehaving. Will try that tomorrow. Tony - to answer your question.... the 6 pin molex had 2 ground pins, RXD, TXD. Also RTS and DTS are wired back to the Berg connector. I thought I read somewhere that these are not used. On a positive note... all the power supply voltages on the backplane looks good after the rework on those. From md.benson at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 04:35:53 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 10:35:53 +0100 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: References: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> <5009B7E5.6090601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <123D20D2-1122-4CD5-BA55-2E215984D9B1@gmail.com> On 20 Jul 2012, at 22:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Mark Benson wrote: >>> I think $80 for an untested A500 without power supply is expensive. > > Agreed. > >> Or worse still if it's got a RTC the battery may have leaked and damaged >> the logic board. > > The RTC battery is on the memory expansion module. They still leak > and damage the board, but it's not the main board, it's a replaceable > board. That depends if it's a 500 or a 500+, the 500+ had it on the main logic board and are well known for battery leakage damage. The first thing you should EVER do with a 500+ is pull the lid of and clip out the battery if it's still the original one, regardless of wether it's leaked. If it hasn't it will. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 21 15:31:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:31:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB to GPIB interface Message-ID: It's of no real interet to me at the momnet (obivously) but this month's Elektor magazine (the summer double issue, so it's not cheap!) has a project to make a USB to GPIB interface. It's little more than a programemd PIC which directly drives the GPIB lines without buffers. I don't like that much, but... I think you can get source code for the firmware (apart from the USB routines, which are standard routins from Microchip). May be of interest to somebody here.... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 16:10:53 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:10:53 -0400 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: <500AFE26.60703@neurotica.com> References: <500AFE26.60703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Clearly. I have an easier time finding PDP-8s than I do Amigas. Not > kidding. All I want is an original 1000 like I had eons ago, and about > six have slipped through my fingers over the years. Too weird. I can probably hook you up with a base A1000, but I don't have a lot of 100% working keyboards or mice. -ethan From dennis at conus.info Sat Jul 21 11:52:55 2012 From: dennis at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:52:55 +0300 Subject: Apple ][ disk/game server In-Reply-To: <4F224D83.20703@gmail.com> (Rob Doyle's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:08:51 -0700") References: <088f01ccdc8e$bee88d00$6400a8c0@tababook> <6EB6E01A-67A4-4FA1-B4B5-32919DDF8378@gmail.com> <201201270219.q0R2Itc3032020@billy.ezwind.net> <4F224D83.20703@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rob Doyle writes: > I work in Aerospace. We are still shipping lots of products that > use the Intel 188 and 186 of different variants... ditto 386DX, 386EX, > etc. > > It was never intended to do DOS. It was an embedded controller. Most > of the peripherals were not PC compliant and they certainly weren't > mapped at the right IO addresses. > > In fact, Intel made it a point to tweak the embedded controllers so > that they *could not* run DOS and they could sell them at embedded > processor prices. Witness the 80376 and 80386EX. Can I ask you more about these counter-DOS tweakings? Just interesting... From barythrin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 21 13:03:51 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 11:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minigame Compo 2012 officially started (submit by Nov 30 2012) Message-ID: <1342893831.77565.YahooMailClassic@web161506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Just spreading the word amongst a few of the groups that may have interest and talent in older and more efficient programming past. http://minigamecompo.weebly.com/index.html has begun and will be accepting submissions I believe until November 30th (2012). For those who aren't familiar this is a competition to write the best game they can in the category of under 1k, 2k, or 4k of code for various (usually 8-bit) platforms. They have some screen shots of previous programs that have competed to see what sort of stuff comes out of it. I always find it entertaining. I have no affiliation with them, just helping spread the word since I haven't seen it announced in my usual hangouts yet. - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jul 21 13:49:38 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:49:38 +0100 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: <50099349.2080601@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hahahaha! Clearly I'm in the wrong place, in the UK I can't GIVE them away! On 20/07/2012 18:20, "jim s" wrote: > Not my listing, but close to my house if anyone is interested and needs > help. > > http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/3151437047.html -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 13:54:38 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:54:38 -0300 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca References: Message-ID: <4CC18A8D926C4429AB5BB8F726C91B6D@tababook> > Clearly I'm in the wrong place, in the UK I can't GIVE them away! Why can't you? :) I can accept some :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 21 14:08:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:08:22 -0400 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500AFE26.60703@neurotica.com> Clearly. I have an easier time finding PDP-8s than I do Amigas. Not kidding. All I want is an original 1000 like I had eons ago, and about six have slipped through my fingers over the years. Too weird. -Dave On 07/21/2012 02:49 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hahahaha! > > Clearly I'm in the wrong place, in the UK I can't GIVE them away! > > > On 20/07/2012 18:20, "jim s" wrote: > >> Not my listing, but close to my house if anyone is interested and needs >> help. >> >> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/3151437047.html > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Jul 21 16:21:36 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:21:36 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? Message-ID: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I went to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the model number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up to see what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't just a H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". Even though I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good procedures when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the power cord and hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this time. Can anyone suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that minimizes the chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? Thanks, David From wackyvorlon at me.com Sat Jul 21 16:40:31 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:40:31 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> References: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <8114E3CC-1C1D-4C9A-A93B-5A8DB567B720@me.com> One method I've heard involves powering up slowly with a variac. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-21, at 5:21 PM, David Betz wrote: > It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I went to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the model number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up to see what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't just a H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". Even though I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good procedures when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the power cord and hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this time. Can anyone suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that minimizes the chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? > > Thanks, > David From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 16:45:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 18:45:46 -0300 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? References: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> <8114E3CC-1C1D-4C9A-A93B-5A8DB567B720@me.com> Message-ID: <2766EF32F654460EBA81E5E0E699ECFD@tababook> With the power supply disconnected from the computer, I hope --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Heathkit H89 maybe? > One method I've heard involves powering up slowly with a variac. > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2012-07-21, at 5:21 PM, David Betz wrote: > >> It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I went >> to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the model >> number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up to see >> what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't just a >> H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". Even though >> I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good procedures >> when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the power cord and >> hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this time. Can anyone >> suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that minimizes the >> chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? >> >> Thanks, >> David From wackyvorlon at me.com Sat Jul 21 22:35:09 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 23:35:09 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? Message-ID: My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 for process control. I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track one down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? Sent from my iPad From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 21 23:17:46 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:17:46 -0700 Subject: TNIX 2.1 Message-ID: <500B7EEA.3050800@bitsavers.org> I spotted a listing for the TNIX user manuals and a set of floppies in Tucker's manual list, so there is a standalone disk and a dump of the file system with the native tools package on bitsavers now, along with the manuals. The standalone formatter seems to be really fussy about what kind of disk it will format. I tried a Seagate ST4096 and a Maxtor 1140, and couldn't get either to go even though they had more heads and cylinders than the Micropolis 1304. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 21 23:51:23 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:51:23 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> References: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> Message-ID: > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > > It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I went to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the model number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up to see what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't just a H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". Even though I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good procedures when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the power cord and hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this time. Can anyone suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that minimizes the chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? > > Thanks, > David Hi David We have a mail group that is an active group that specializes in H8/H89s. It is a Googles group SEBHC. One of the group members has our disk archives. Depnding on the format you need, we have several different achive formats. If you have hard sectored, determined by having a H27 controller ( might be the wrong number ), I wrote a boot strap a number of years ago that can get you started. It works through the serial ports and the PC end uses a DOS program. One of the other fellows wrote a windows program for the PC end. The soft sectored card has a uP on it. One can create disk if you mount a 360K disk drive in your PC. You can try to bring it up slow but I suggest disconnecting the video board. It may still pop a tantalum or two. I recommend removing the cover so you can spot the source of the smoke before shutting the power. Also watch out for the unfused and unswitched line filter, that has been known to blow ( don't leave it plugged in when not around ). If you have a hard sectored disk, you'll need 10 sectored disk. I had a number of manual punches made but sold out ( I still have a couple of the 16 sectored punches if anyone else want one ). One can still buy new disk at about $5 each. I use old 360K and my punch to make what I need. Diwght From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 00:00:11 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 00:00:11 -0500 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: w mine? On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 for > process control. I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track > one down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? > > Sent from my iPad > From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Jul 22 00:19:45 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:19:45 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: References: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> Message-ID: Hi Dwight, Thanks for your suggestions. I just opened up my H89 and there are a bunch of modules plugged into a backplane. The backplane itself is labeled "mako data products MH89 plus 3". I guess it's a third party module. Plugged into it were the following modules: DISK I/O 85-2601-1 DOUBLE DENSITY 85-2597-1 SERIAL/PARALLEL I/O BOARD N.O.G.D.S HA-89-3-B ATRA H-101-A with a H-201-B daughterboard The last two seem like they have something to do with sound generation and the N.O.G.D.S. board also has a video chip on it. Beyond that, there are six toggle switches mounted between the main keyboard and the numeric keypad and another toggle switch mounted on the floppy drive along with a second LED. Do you have any idea what any of this stuff is? In particular, do you know if the two disk controller boards are for hard or soft sectored drives? Thanks, David On Jul 22, 2012, at 12:51 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > >> From: dbetz at xlisper.com >> >> It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I went to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the model number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up to see what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't just a H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". Even though I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good procedures when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the power cord and hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this time. Can anyone suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that minimizes the chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? >> >> Thanks, >> David > > Hi David > We have a mail group that > is an active group that specializes in H8/H89s. It is a Googles group SEBHC. > One of the group members has our disk archives. Depnding on the format you need, > we have several different achive formats. > If you have hard sectored, determined by having a H27 controller ( might be > the wrong number ), I wrote a boot strap a number of years ago that can > get you started. It works through the serial ports and the PC end uses a DOS > program. One of the other fellows wrote a windows program for the PC > end. > The soft sectored card has a uP on it. One can create disk if you mount a > 360K disk drive in your PC. > You can try to bring it up slow but I suggest disconnecting the video board. > It may still pop a tantalum or two. I recommend removing the cover so you > can spot the source of the smoke before shutting the power. > Also watch out for the unfused and unswitched line filter, that has been known > to blow ( don't leave it plugged in when not around ). > If you have a hard sectored disk, you'll need 10 sectored disk. I had a number > of manual punches made but sold out ( I still have a couple of the 16 sectored > punches if anyone else want one ). > One can still buy new disk at about $5 each. I use old 360K and my punch > to make what I need. > Diwght > From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 00:19:48 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:19:48 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D73B816-F0CD-4FDD-80FB-85B89BBCF967@me.com> I *think* it was Sheritt-Gordon. I'll have to check with him in the morning to make sure. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 1:00 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > w mine? > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 for >> process control. I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track >> one down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> From barythrin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 00:40:15 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1342935615.60952.YahooMailClassic@web161502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Not very common at all. Wish I could find one too but doubt I could afford it. Pretty neat but marketed as a kitchen computer so I'd be surprised that he used one but I suppose they were sold here and there. Best of luck. I'm sure a few folks have one. I've seen a few folks via the old-computers.com woozgotwat http://www.old-computers.com/club/collectors/woozgotwat.asp site. --- On Sat, 7/21/12, Paul Anderson wrote: > From: Paul Anderson > Honeywell 316 for process control. I > was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track one > down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? > > Sent from my iPad > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 22 00:49:26 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 22:49:26 -0700 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: References: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com>, , Message-ID: > > Hi Dwight, > > Thanks for your suggestions. > > I just opened up my H89 and there are a bunch of modules plugged into a backplane. The backplane itself is labeled "mako data products MH89 plus 3". I guess it's a third party module. Plugged into it were the following modules: > > DISK I/O 85-2601-1 > > DOUBLE DENSITY 85-2597-1 This is a soft sectored board. I think the other is hard sectored. It sounds like it was setup to use either. I'd have to check as my machines are in storeage right now. It sounds like an unusual machine. Dwight > > SERIAL/PARALLEL I/O BOARD > > N.O.G.D.S HA-89-3-B > > ATRA H-101-A with a H-201-B daughterboard > > The last two seem like they have something to do with sound generation and the N.O.G.D.S. board also has a video chip on it. > > Beyond that, there are six toggle switches mounted between the main keyboard and the numeric keypad and another toggle switch mounted on the floppy drive along with a second LED. > > Do you have any idea what any of this stuff is? In particular, do you know if the two disk controller boards are for hard or soft sectored drives? > > Thanks, > David > > On Jul 22, 2012, at 12:51 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> From: dbetz at xlisper.com > >> > >> It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I went to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the model number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up to see what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't just a H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". Even though I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good procedures when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the power cord and hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this time. Can anyone suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that minimizes the chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> David > > > > Hi David > > We have a mail group that > > is an active group that specializes in H8/H89s. It is a Googles group SEBHC. > > One of the group members has our disk archives. Depnding on the format you need, > > we have several different achive formats. > > If you have hard sectored, determined by having a H27 controller ( might be > > the wrong number ), I wrote a boot strap a number of years ago that can > > get you started. It works through the serial ports and the PC end uses a DOS > > program. One of the other fellows wrote a windows program for the PC > > end. > > The soft sectored card has a uP on it. One can create disk if you mount a > > 360K disk drive in your PC. > > You can try to bring it up slow but I suggest disconnecting the video board. > > It may still pop a tantalum or two. I recommend removing the cover so you > > can spot the source of the smoke before shutting the power. > > Also watch out for the unfused and unswitched line filter, that has been known > > to blow ( don't leave it plugged in when not around ). > > If you have a hard sectored disk, you'll need 10 sectored disk. I had a number > > of manual punches made but sold out ( I still have a couple of the 16 sectored > > punches if anyone else want one ). > > One can still buy new disk at about $5 each. I use old 360K and my punch > > to make what I need. > > Diwght > > > > From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 01:33:03 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:33:03 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: <1342935615.60952.YahooMailClassic@web161502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1342935615.60952.YahooMailClassic@web161502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <480C8438-297C-408E-9F15-03A6544BFCF0@me.com> It was in a different chassis from the kitchen computer. Same model number, though. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 1:40 AM, Sam Onella wrote: > Not very common at all. Wish I could find one too but doubt I could afford it. Pretty neat but marketed as a kitchen computer so I'd be surprised that he used one but I suppose they were sold here and there. > > Best of luck. I'm sure a few folks have one. I've seen a few folks via the old-computers.com woozgotwat http://www.old-computers.com/club/collectors/woozgotwat.asp site. > > --- On Sat, 7/21/12, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> From: Paul Anderson >> Honeywell 316 for process control. I >> was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track one >> down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 01:38:29 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:38:29 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dad says it was in 1976, at Ruttan mine owned by Sheritt-Gordon in Leaf Rapids, Manitoba. In '78 they replaced it with a PDP-11. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 1:00 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > w mine? > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 for >> process control. I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track >> one down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> From drb at msu.edu Sun Jul 22 02:05:15 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 03:05:15 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 22 Jul 2012 02:38:29 EDT.) References: Message-ID: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Dad says it was in 1976, at Ruttan mine owned by Sheritt-Gordon in Leaf > Rapids, Manitoba. In '78 they replaced it with a PDP-11. Would be interesting to know more about it's software, hardware config, etc. De From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 02:22:36 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 03:22:36 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <212E15A9-586D-4978-8439-53F3D8F9039F@me.com> Tomorrow I will see what more he remembers. He mentions they preferred the PDP-11 because it had a keypad instead of toggle switches, and a disk drive with removable platters. His recollection is that they were about 18" across. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 3:05 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Dad says it was in 1976, at Ruttan mine owned by Sheritt-Gordon in Leaf >> Rapids, Manitoba. In '78 they replaced it with a PDP-11. > > Would be interesting to know more about it's software, hardware config, > etc. > > De From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 22 02:28:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 03:28:31 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: <212E15A9-586D-4978-8439-53F3D8F9039F@me.com> References: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <212E15A9-586D-4978-8439-53F3D8F9039F@me.com> Message-ID: <500BAB9F.3050709@neurotica.com> On 07/22/2012 03:22 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Tomorrow I will see what more he remembers. He mentions they > preferred the PDP-11 because it had a keypad instead of toggle > switches, and a disk drive with removable platters. His recollection > is that they were about 18" across. PDP-11/04, PDP-11/34, or PDP-11/60 were the only PDP-11s I'm aware of with keypads. If it was about 18" across, it couldn't have been an 11/60. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 22 02:28:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 03:28:55 -0400 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: References: <500AFE26.60703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <500BABB7.9060503@neurotica.com> On 07/21/2012 05:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Clearly. I have an easier time finding PDP-8s than I do Amigas. Not >> kidding. All I want is an original 1000 like I had eons ago, and about >> six have slipped through my fingers over the years. Too weird. > > I can probably hook you up with a base A1000, but I don't have a lot > of 100% working keyboards or mice. I'm up for it! I don't mind putting together a system piecemeal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 02:42:33 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 03:42:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets Message-ID: <500BAEE9.2090102@gmail.com> Does anyone have a copy of the DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheet set? The mp sheets are DEC part number #MP-00893-00 These are needed for repairing a VK100 and for a project reverse-engineering how the hardware worked. The Tech manual on bitsavers ( http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-TM-001_VK100_Technical_Manual_Apr82.pdf ) is missing a lot of information I need, and is also rife with errors! I'd be more than willing to scan or photocopy them if anyone has a copy they could lend me. Am fine paying shipping. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Jul 22 04:09:33 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:09:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dilog MQ606 manual? In-Reply-To: <500999D6.2040107@heeltoe.com> References: <500999D6.2040107@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2012, Brad Parker wrote: > I think this has been asked before, but I didn't find any answer. Basic > googling didn't find anything except a dead > link to a "bluefeathertech" ftp site to a file tantalizingly called > "mq606.zip" > > I have an Dilog QBUS MQ606 controller card but no docs. I think it will > connect to 2x ST506 MFM drives. But I think I need to tell > it the geometry of the drives and so I suspect there is some firmware I need > to run to configure the card.... But who knows. > > Anyone have a scanned copy of the Dilog MQ606 manual? Try port 50021. Bruce changed the ftp server to a nonstandard port back in 2006. 'ftp ftp.bluefeathertech.com 50021' From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Jul 22 04:20:39 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:20:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dilog MQ606 manual? In-Reply-To: References: <500999D6.2040107@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jul 2012, Brad Parker wrote: > >> I think this has been asked before, but I didn't find any answer. Basic >> googling didn't find anything except a dead >> link to a "bluefeathertech" ftp site to a file tantalizingly called >> "mq606.zip" >> >> I have an Dilog QBUS MQ606 controller card but no docs. I think it will >> connect to 2x ST506 MFM drives. But I think I need to tell >> it the geometry of the drives and so I suspect there is some firmware I >> need to run to configure the card.... But who knows. >> >> Anyone have a scanned copy of the Dilog MQ606 manual? > > Try port 50021. Bruce changed the ftp server to a nonstandard port back in > 2006. 'ftp ftp.bluefeathertech.com 50021' ...and I sent this before reading the 'Paul Anderson' / 'Bruce' bit later in this thread. By Bruce I meant Bruce Lane, owner of Blue Feather Technologies. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jul 22 04:23:20 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:23:20 +0200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Andrew Quinn" Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:44 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Subject: Re: Ready to Power up the 11/04 > It is possible that some of the HALT / Bus Error problem might be with > the KY11-LB.... some of the keys on the keypad don't return the > correct values on the display when pressed. Specifically 3 and 6 > which cause the display to show 1 and 4. These happen to be on the > same READ cycle as the CTRL and DEP buttons. My initial thought was a > problem with the 7404 that controls the READ signal but that looks OK > on the scope. I will pull the keypad off tomorrow and make sure it > isn't something in the switch matrix. > > Not sure if anyone else has seen similar issues with the KY11? The KY11-LB is "just another" peripheral on the UNIBUS. So if the KY11-LB creates a problem on the UNIBUS the rest of the system will have problems too. I once had a KY11-LB that misbehaved. What the symptoms were, I can not remember, maybe that's described on my website. Anyway, it turned out to be a faulty RAM chip. After I had found the cause, I have replaced (sorry Tony, swapped) the module, because at the time I could not find a replacement 4 bit, 16 nibble RAM chip. I am no longer searching, but one day I hope to replace the RAM chip, if only to prove that I did find the fault ... - Henk, PA8PDP From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 08:16:04 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 09:16:04 -0400 Subject: GNT 4601 reader/punch documentation Message-ID: Does anyone have schematics for a GNT 4601 reader/punch? -- Michael Thompson From vaxorcist at googlemail.com Sat Jul 21 12:06:10 2012 From: vaxorcist at googlemail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans=2DUlrich_H=F6lscher?=) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:06:10 +0200 Subject: Whereabouts of Arthur Gill Message-ID: Is: Arthur Gill author of: "Machine and assembly language programming of the PDP-11" still alive? Anyone knows how to get in contact? Regards Ulli From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 21 16:59:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 14:59:01 -0700 Subject: USB to GPIB interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500AC3B5.27693.186E8A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2012 at 21:31, Tony Duell wrote: > It's of no real interet to me at the momnet (obivously) but this > month's Elektor magazine (the summer double issue, so it's not cheap!) > has a project to make a USB to GPIB interface. It's little more than a > programemd PIC which directly drives the GPIB lines without buffers. I > don't like that much, but... There's a 2005 EDN design here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4318969/Build-a-USB- based-GPIB-controller using a FTDI USB-parallel chip and an AT90S8515 AVR microcontroller, along with 75160 and 75161 buffer chips. Claims to run at full speed USB 2.0 12Mpbs speeds. It looks a little more robust to me. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 09:24:12 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:24:12 -0300 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca References: <500AFE26.60703@neurotica.com> <500BABB7.9060503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I'm up for it! I don't mind putting together a system piecemeal. A1000s are lots of fun...I had one very expanded years ago :o( From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jul 22 09:59:45 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 10:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GNT 4601 reader/punch documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Michael Thompson wrote: > Does anyone have schematics for a GNT 4601 reader/punch? I don't have schematics, but I have the Instruction Manual if you need it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 22 11:07:15 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 09:07:15 -0700 Subject: GNT 4601 reader/punch documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500C2533.3060702@bitsavers.org> On 7/22/12 6:16 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Does anyone have schematics for a GNT 4601 reader/punch? > I don't have them, but I did have the operators manual which is uploaded http://bitsavers.org/pdf/gnt From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 11:25:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 09:25:23 -0700 Subject: Apple ][ disk/game server In-Reply-To: References: , <4F224D83.20703@gmail.com> (Rob Doyle's message of "Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:08:51 -0700"), Message-ID: <500BC703.29553.FA53F@cclist.sydex.com> > Rob Doyle writes: > > > It was never intended to do DOS. It was an embedded controller. > > Most of the peripherals were not PC compliant and they certainly > > weren't mapped at the right IO addresses. > > > > In fact, Intel made it a point to tweak the embedded controllers so > > that they *could not* run DOS and they could sell them at embedded > > processor prices. Witness the 80376 and 80386EX. The 80186 was released in 1982 and had been in beta quite a bit longer (I used pre-release steppings and still remember some of the nastier bugs). Intel had no way to know that the 5150 and its descendents would be popular at all; in fact, while the 186 was in development, I don't think that the subject of DOS had even been settled. The primary issue is that the integrated peripherals, are substantial improvements over the old 8085-era legacy chips used by IBM. For example, the integrated DMA uses the full 20 bit address space, not some crufty 64K piece of it. It should also be noted that the 80186 was the first ti improve on the instruction set of 8086, adding the non-privileged instructions of the 80286. It's entirely possible to discard the internal peripherals and employ the old legacy garbage, but then, what would be the point of using an 80186? But there were several systems that used special versions of DOS and ran very nicely on the 80186. However its Japanese relative, the V40 was employed by several manufacturers with legacy peripherals to provide a low-power PC base. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 22 11:38:36 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:38:36 -0500 Subject: USB to GPIB interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500C2C8C.8080209@pico-systems.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:31:20 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: USB to GPIB interface Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain It's of no real interet to me at the momnet (obivously) but this month's Elektor magazine (the summer double issue, so it's not cheap!) has a project to make a USB to GPIB interface. It's little more than a programemd PIC which directly drives the GPIB lines without buffers. I don't like that much, but... I think you can get source code for the firmware (apart from the USB routines, which are standard routins from Microchip). I have successfully controlled some GPIB gear with just a parallel port, not even a pullup resistor needed. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 11:49:33 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:49:33 -0500 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: seriously? i've got the rsx11 m+ manuals from ratan.. anyhow my grandfather found ratan doing the airial survaying for sherrit theres a lake near there named after him ask him if he knows the name stoness On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Dad says it was in 1976, at Ruttan mine owned by Sheritt-Gordon in Leaf > Rapids, Manitoba. In '78 they replaced it with a PDP-11. > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2012-07-22, at 1:00 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > w mine? > > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > >> My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 > for > >> process control. I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track > >> one down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 11:49:38 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:49:38 -0500 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: <500BAB9F.3050709@neurotica.com> References: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <212E15A9-586D-4978-8439-53F3D8F9039F@me.com> <500BAB9F.3050709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ratan had a 23 as did the mine in lynn lake. they were still in one peac till 2009 when the province bulldozed all that stuff into the ground. i missed the boat on the big rescue by couple yrs if i had gotten into this stuff sooner i would have one of those units i have also spoken to mike botton (spelling) who did the maintinace on the macheans he had all the software manuals and such for them spare till he tossed it all in 06 the :( i was talking to him couple months back when i was working at the mine in wabowden adrian stoness, son of john stoness grandson of darrol stoness From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 12:16:54 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 10:16:54 -0700 Subject: USB to GPIB interface In-Reply-To: <500C2C8C.8080209@pico-systems.com> References: , <500C2C8C.8080209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <500BD316.22715.3ECE6E@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2012 at 11:38, Jon Elson wrote: > I have successfully controlled some GPIB gear with just a parallel > port, not even a pullup resistor needed. Yes, it's possible, but it's very limited in speed. and flexibility See, for exmple, my 1987 SIMTEL program to drive an HPIB plotter using a parallel port. I also seem to recall that the Victor 9000 even had an optional GPIB cable to attach to the prallel port. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 13:27:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:27:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at Jul 21, 12 07:44:50 pm Message-ID: > > Spent a few hours today with the unibus documentation, meter and scope > and have concluded there are no breaks in the NPG / NPR / BG4-7 or > BR4-7 lines on the 9 socket backplane. What I would do next is, with the machien assembled and powered up, check if any of BG4-7 or NPG are asserted (high) at the M9302 terminator. It's _possible_ the CPU is asseerting one of them due to a problem in the logic, it's also possible (and more likely) that one of the device cards is not correctly passign on the grant (I have had this). > > It is possible that some of the HALT / Bus Error problem might be with > the KY11-LB.... some of the keys on the keypad don't return the > correct values on the display when pressed. Specifically 3 and 6 > which cause the display to show 1 and 4. These happen to be on the > same READ cycle as the CTRL and DEP buttons. My initial thought was a > problem with the 7404 that controls the READ signal but that looks OK > on the scope. I will pull the keypad off tomorrow and make sure it > isn't something in the switch matrix. Yes, mechanical problems, like a defective switch are the most common :-). You;'d better hope the rpoblem isn't in the KY11-B logic, IIRC that's 8008-based so debugging it is 'fun'. I don't think I've ever seen lisitns of its firmware either. > I need to get back to the M7856 serial cable and replace the Molex > with a DE9 (well spotted Tony... I never realized that DB9 was not the > right name). It may be that the machine is powering up fine and the Sorry... this is a pet rant of mine. The letter after the 'D' is the shell size. DB25 (and DB44) are correct. It is _amazing_ how many peopel get this wrong, though. > console emulator works even if the KY11-LB is misbehaving. Will try > that tomorrow. > > Tony - to answer your question.... the 6 pin molex had 2 ground pins, > RXD, TXD. Also RTS and DTS are wired back to the Berg connector. I > thought I read somewhere that these are not used. No DEC didn't use hardwre flow control on these interfaces. Certainly on some DL11s, the RTS and DTR pins on the Berg connecotr are conencted to the +15V line through suiotable resistors so they're always asserted. In any case, theyr;'e not inputs to the PDP11, so you can ignore them. The machien can't know if you've connected them or not :-) > > On a positive note... all the power supply voltages on the backplane > looks good after the rework on those. > Excellent! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 13:37:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:37:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: <85BDD465-262F-4605-95AF-20FE5AFC6282@xlisper.com> from "David Betz" at Jul 21, 12 05:21:36 pm Message-ID: > > It looks like I'm back in business collecting vintage computers. I > went to the town dump today and found what looks like an H89 but the > model number tag on the back says NN89-29. I haven't tried opening it up > to see what's inside yet but it has a floppy drive so I assume it isn't > just a H19 terminal. Also, on the front it says "Heathkit Computer". If it is an H89/Z90, then it will be quite tightly packed inside and not easy to work on. From memroy, the floppy drive comes out easily, and it's best to that that out early on to have better acess to the other bits. > Even though I've had vintage computers before I've never followed good > procedures when trying to bring them up. Usually, I just plug in the > power cord and hope for the best. I'd like to do a little better this > time. Can anyone suggest an approach to bringing this beast to life that > minimizes the chances that I'll fry it the first time I power it on? The PSU is linear, and mostly jsut behind the floppy drive. But something is tellign me that there are voltage regulators on at least one of the logic boards (the H19 terminal board?) so it's not totally trivial to test the PSU on dummy load. Iseem to rememer when I brought my Z90 to life, I started by temporarily tuning it into an Z19 terminal and gettign that to work first. I certainyl did test the bare PSU on its own, that may include the regualtors for the comptuer section. I also seem to rememebr that many, if not all, of the ICs on the terminal board were socketed, so I pulled those, at least the hard-to-find or expensive ones, and powered up at litte as I could co check votlages. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 13:39:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:39:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: <2766EF32F654460EBA81E5E0E699ECFD@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jul 21, 12 06:45:46 pm Message-ID: > > > With the power supply disconnected from the computer, I hope Actually, with a linear PSU you nmight get away without having to disconenct the PSU. Put a votlmeter on each of the main outputs, and slowly crank up the mains input on the Variac. Stop aif any of the outputs shows signs of going too high. I think the H89/Z90 PSU would behave reasoably like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 13:47:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:47:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: from "David Betz" at Jul 22, 12 01:19:45 am Message-ID: > > Hi Dwight, > > Thanks for your suggestions. > > I just opened up my H89 and there are a bunch of modules plugged into > a backplane. The backplane itself is labeled "mako data products MH89 > plus 3". I guess it's a third party module. Plugged into it were the > following modules: That does not sound like a 'stock' H89. The original layout was somethign like : At hte back are 2 large-ish PCBs. The rearmost one is the H19/Z19 terminal (Z80 baseed). In front of it is another Z80 processor board that runs the user software (CPM, etc). There are 6 (IIRC) connectors o nthis board for add-ones, 3 each side of the CRT neck. They are not all the same by any means. One of the ones on the left is normally ued for an eaxta 16K RAM card (which is bank-switched with the boot ROM, etc). The ones on the right normally hold a triple RS222 port card and 1 or 2 floppy controllers. > > DISK I/O 85-2601-1 > > DOUBLE DENSITY 85-2597-1 > > SERIAL/PARALLEL I/O BOARD > > N.O.G.D.S HA-89-3-B > > ATRA H-101-A with a H-201-B daughterboard > > The last two seem like they have something to do with sound generation > and the N.O.G.D.S. board also has a video chip on it. WHich video chip? Wheee is the processor in all this? Do you have the H89 docuemntation? If so, is there any similarly between your machine and the docs? > > Beyond that, there are six toggle switches mounted between the main > keyboard and the numeric keypad and another toggle switch mounted on the > floppy drive along with a second LED. Cerainly non-standerd. Whare are the switches and LED connected to? > > Do you have any idea what any of this stuff is? In particular, do you > know if the two disk controller boards are for hard or soft sectored > drives? The drive are the same, there's no index/sector pulse seapration don in 5.25" drives. IRIC, the oriignal Heathkit controlelr was for hard sectored disks, and used a synchronous serial chip and soem glue logic. Nothing that screams 'floppy controller'. The double-desnity card ad a Western Digital (WD179x?) chip on it, and used soft-sectoroed disks. I'd look at the cards you have, see if you vna identify any of the ICs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 14:05:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:05:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB to GPIB interface In-Reply-To: <500BD316.22715.3ECE6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 22, 12 10:16:54 am Message-ID: > > On 22 Jul 2012 at 11:38, Jon Elson wrote: > > > I have successfully controlled some GPIB gear with just a parallel > > port, not even a pullup resistor needed. Yes, it';s not difficult to bit-bang the handshake protocol. However, I understnad that most modenr PCs don't have parallel ports any more, and the USB-Cntroings pritner cables can't be used for this AFAIK. Yes, you can make a USB-'user paralel port' interface and use that to talk to a GPIB, but that;'s as much work as makign a specific interface. > Yes, it's possible, but it's very limited in speed. and flexibility > See, for exmple, my 1987 SIMTEL program to drive an HPIB plotter I ahve that around here if any wants it... > using a parallel port. I also seem to recall that the Victor 9000 > even had an optional GPIB cable to attach to the prallel port. YEs, but the Victor 9000 pritner port was almost GPIB on the wrong conenctor. The chips that drive it are a 75160 for the data lines and (IIRC) a 75161 (maybe 75162, I don't have the schematic to hand) for the cotnrol lines. The Stb/ pin was drivine by the DAV buffer, etc. The hsot side of thsie ships, the direction lines, etc were controleld by 6522s (what else, given the dseigher...) maybe wit ha very small amount of extra logic. You can easly do GPIB with that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 22 14:36:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:36:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serius/Victor 9000 printer port Message-ID: With reference to my reply to Chuck's message, I've now dug out the schematics. The Sirius printer interface uses a 6522 VIA (at location U15L o nthe mainboard). Port A is bufferec by a 75160 and fet ot the data pins on the 'Centronics' connector. Port B is used for the handshake lines, in ascending bit order : DAV, EOI, REN, ATN, IFC, SRQ, NRFD, NDAC. Tese are bufferec by a 75161, always in controller mode (DC is grounds). NRFD and NDAC (o nthe 'host' side of the buffer) also go to CA1 and CA2 (respsecviely) of the VIA The 'Talk' (buffer direction) line is controlled by PB0 of the 'system VIA' at loccation U12L The pinout of the 'Centroics' socket is : DAV 1 19 Gnd D0 2 20 Gnd D1 3 21 Gnd D2 4 22 Gnd D3 5 23 Gnd D4 6 24 Gnd D5 7 25 Gnd D6 8 26 Gnd D7 9 27 Gnd NRFD 10 28 Gnd SRQ 11 29 Gnd N/C 12 30 N/C NDAC 13 31 N/C J 14 32 NDAC EOI 15 33 Gnd Gnd 16 34 REN FG 17 35 ATN NC 18 36 IFC A couple of non-obvious ones : 'J' (pin 14' is connected to ground via the jumper E26-E27 (which is not normally fitted I think). FG is frame ground (mains earth), not logic ground. I/O chips i nthe Sirius seem ot be memory mammed for some odd reason. I think the addresses are : GPIB VIA : 1110 1xxx xxx0 001x rrrr System VIA : 1110 1xxx xxx0 010x rrrr where rrrr is selexts the VIA register in the obvious order. -tony From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Jul 22 13:24:37 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 10:24:37 -0800 Subject: Apple ][ disk/game server In-Reply-To: <500BC703.29553.FA53F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4f224d83.20703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60B54C13CE5.00000244n0body.h0me@inbox.com> >> Rob Doyle writes: >> >>> It was never intended to do DOS. It was an embedded controller. >>> Most of the peripherals were not PC compliant and they certainly >>> weren't mapped at the right IO addresses. >>> >>> In fact, Intel made it a point to tweak the embedded controllers so >>> that they *could not* run DOS and they could sell them at embedded >>> processor prices. Witness the 80376 and 80386EX. > > The 80186 was released in 1982 and had been in beta quite a bit > longer (I used pre-release steppings and still remember some of the > nastier bugs). Intel had no way to know that the 5150 and its > descendents would be popular at all; in fact, while the 186 was in > development, I don't think that the subject of DOS had even been > settled. > > The primary issue is that the integrated peripherals, are substantial > improvements over the old 8085-era legacy chips used by IBM. For > example, the integrated DMA uses the full 20 bit address space, not > some crufty 64K piece of it. > > It should also be noted that the 80186 was the first ti improve on > the instruction set of 8086, adding the non-privileged instructions > of the 80286. > > It's entirely possible to discard the internal peripherals and employ > the old legacy garbage, but then, what would be the point of using an > 80186? But there were several systems that used special versions of > DOS and ran very nicely on the 80186. Yep! The early 3Com 3Server series file servers did just that. The dual DMA channels made disk i/o faster than you could get using a stock PC (well, at that time, anyways). Jeff ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Jul 22 14:26:11 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:26:11 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I certainyl did test the bare PSU on its own, that may include the > regualtors for the comptuer section. I also seem to rememebr that many, > if not all, of the ICs on the terminal board were socketed, so I pulled > those, at least the hard-to-find or expensive ones, and powered up at > litte as I could co check votlages. I'm afraid I broke my own rule again and just plugged in the H89 to see what would happen. Fortunately, nothing dramatic happened. The display came up with the text rolling but it stabilized as it warmed up. I ended up with an incrementing clock in the lower right corner and a cursor in the upper left. If I put it in local mode I can type on the keyboard and see the correct characters appear on the monitor so the terminal board seems to work. I don't have a boot floppy so I can't get much further. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 14:47:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:47:05 -0300 Subject: USB to GPIB interface References: Message-ID: >> > I have successfully controlled some GPIB gear with just a parallel >> > port, not even a pullup resistor needed. > Yes, it';s not difficult to bit-bang the handshake protocol. However, I > understnad that most modenr PCs don't have parallel ports any more, and > the USB-Cntroings pritner cables can't be used for this AFAIK. Yes, you > can make a USB-'user paralel port' interface and use that to talk to a > GPIB, but that;'s as much work as makign a specific interface. Have any of you tried Prologix? http://prologix.biz/ I have this one: http://prologix.biz/gpib-usb-controller.html and LOVE it. And they have the best support avaiable. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jul 22 14:53:39 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:53:39 +0100 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca In-Reply-To: <4CC18A8D926C4429AB5BB8F726C91B6D@tababook> Message-ID: On 21/07/2012 19:54, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> Clearly I'm in the wrong place, in the UK I can't GIVE them away! > > Why can't you? :) I can accept some :) If I could ship to Brazil for free.... ;) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 14:56:33 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:56:33 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2AE23740-8F80-4719-8CA0-5077DE42783E@me.com> Stoness! My dads mentioned the name Stoness many, many times. Dad knew a John Stoness. Says he was nothing short of brilliant(very high praise from my father). Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 12:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > seriously? > > i've got the rsx11 m+ manuals from ratan.. > > > anyhow my grandfather found ratan doing the airial survaying for sherrit > theres a lake near there named after him > > ask him if he knows the name stoness > > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> Dad says it was in 1976, at Ruttan mine owned by Sheritt-Gordon in Leaf >> Rapids, Manitoba. In '78 they replaced it with a PDP-11. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 2012-07-22, at 1:00 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> w mine? >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson >> wrote: >>> >>>> My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 >> for >>>> process control. I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track >>>> one down. What are they worth the days? How common are they? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >> From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 14:58:19 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:58:19 -0300 Subject: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca References: Message-ID: I always says it here...I can pay shipping :o) Mostly UK items are VERY rare (or expensive) in Brazil. I'm still after a sinclair Spectrum (and better if a +2 or +3 :oD) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Amiga for sale in OC , Ca > On 21/07/2012 19:54, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > wrote: > >>> Clearly I'm in the wrong place, in the UK I can't GIVE them away! >> >> Why can't you? :) I can accept some :) > > If I could ship to Brazil for free.... ;) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 15:03:46 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:03:46 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <519B80A0-F6A8-42FE-97F5-4FF8F762EEE6@me.com> Dad says it had core memory, he believes it was 16k. It was used to operate a outokompu x-ray spectrometer. Data I/O was via teletype and paper tape reader. They usually used pre-punched paper tape. They had a pile of spare parts for it. Dad thinks it was left in the control room, in the computer and analyzer interface area. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 3:05 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Dad says it was in 1976, at Ruttan mine owned by Sheritt-Gordon in Leaf >> Rapids, Manitoba. In '78 they replaced it with a PDP-11. > > Would be interesting to know more about it's software, hardware config, > etc. > > De From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 15:04:56 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:04:56 -0400 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: <20120722070515.B0B39326734@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <212E15A9-586D-4978-8439-53F3D8F9039F@me.com> <500BAB9F.3050709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dad mentions John Stoness bought himself a personal PDP-11. He was using it as his personal computer in about 1980. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 12:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > ratan had a 23 as did the mine in lynn lake. they were still in one peac > till 2009 when the province bulldozed all that stuff into the ground. i > missed the boat on the big rescue by couple yrs if i had gotten into this > stuff sooner i would have one of those units > > i have also spoken to mike botton (spelling) who did the maintinace on the > macheans he had all the software manuals and such for them spare till he > tossed it all in 06 the :( i was talking to him couple months back when i > was working at the mine in wabowden > > adrian stoness, > son of john stoness > grandson of darrol stoness From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sun Jul 22 15:45:35 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:45:35 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs Message-ID: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Several builders have asked about the XT-IDE V2 PCBs and I have reordered a batch. They should be here the second week of August. They will be identical to the previous batch of boards. I will announce when the PCBs arrive. Please do not send any funds until the boards arrive. They will be $12 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 shipping elsewhere. After I announce the boards have arrived please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 22 15:53:58 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 13:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GNT tech docs In-Reply-To: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <1342990438.94494.YahooMailClassic@web181504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> This might be a second post, I got a weird error message the first time. I just scanned my technical manual for the GNT 4604/5 which has many references to the 4601. It does include schematics. You can find it here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/GNT/ Bob From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 16:37:33 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 17:37:33 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working Message-ID: I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the power supply. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 Sent from my iPhone From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 16:58:18 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:58:18 +0100 Subject: GNT tech docs In-Reply-To: <1342990438.94494.YahooMailClassic@web181504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342990438.94494.YahooMailClassic@web181504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <500C777A.1030206@gmail.com> On 22/07/2012 21:53, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > This might be a second post, I got a weird error message the first time. > > > I just scanned my technical manual for the GNT 4604/5 which has many references to the 4601. > > It does include schematics. You can find it here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/GNT/ > > Bob Bob, I have a 4601 and a 4604 so that is really useful to me as well. Thanks, -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 18:11:54 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 11:11:54 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Henk, Thanks for the info. I also appreciate the detail on your webpage about the KY11-LB. I think I have got to the bottom of the front panel problem. Initially I thought that it was related to the scanning technique that is used to read the keypad and update the 7 segment displays given the keypad gave the wrong values and sometimes the display was missing segments. After further research it appears not to be the case (which is good). The scanning signals all look good on the scope and the keypad matrix works correctly when tested with a meter. The insight came when I looked at which keys on the number pad worked and which didn't. I came up with the following table Pressed = Displayed 1 = 1 2 = 0 3 = 1 4 = 4 5 = 5 6 = 4 7 = 5 0 = 0 If you convert this to binary it becomes pretty obvious where the problem lies. The invalid display is for the items marked with * and all have the second bit set. If you mask out the second bit you get the displayed value. 0 = 0000 1 = 0001 2 = 0010 * 3 = 0011 * 4 = 0100 5 = 0101 6 = 0110 * 7 = 0111 * The front panel uses a 7447 BCD to 7 Segment decoder to drive the LED modules. If pin 1 (B) on this is not being set when required then the behaviour will be what I am seeing..... it isn't that the keypad is getting it wrong... but the display is showing the wrong value due to a missing bit. Need to do a bit more digging here but given that this line is pulled to +5V via a resistor on the front panel board I am hoping that the problem is either a connection problem on the front panel board with the line not being pulled up or the 7447 needs to be replaced. If there was a break in the ribbon table to the controller board then the bit would always be set and a different set of incorrect values would be displayed. Hopefully there isn't a fault on the controller board that is pulling the pin to ground. Apart from incorrect values, other behaviours of the front panel seem OK. The other display problems with odd segments missing on the 7 segment displays are due to them being socketed (clearly there was some concern about reliability in 1979) with dirty connections. I need to pull each 7 segment display and clean the pins. Pressing on a display that is missing segments will cause them to appear.... might need to solder joins touched up too. So that is all very positive about the front panel. If I can get down to the workshop tonight I will try to validate if it is the 7447 that is at fault. Tony - OK on testing the Grant lines. I will do that. It seems that if the CPU was already halted that a similar BUS Error would result. Apart from checking for address bus activity is there any other way of confirming if the CPU is running or already halted? I am going to recheck the DC LO and AC LO signals on the unibus as well using a scope. The "Hints on testing a dead PDP11" at has a comment that these can cause problems in the BA11-K chassis and cause the processor to halt. Regards Andrew On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "Andrew Quinn" > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:44 AM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > Subject: Re: Ready to Power up the 11/04 > >> It is possible that some of the HALT / Bus Error problem might be with >> the KY11-LB.... some of the keys on the keypad don't return the >> correct values on the display when pressed. Specifically 3 and 6 >> which cause the display to show 1 and 4. These happen to be on the >> same READ cycle as the CTRL and DEP buttons. My initial thought was a >> problem with the 7404 that controls the READ signal but that looks OK >> on the scope. I will pull the keypad off tomorrow and make sure it >> isn't something in the switch matrix. >> >> Not sure if anyone else has seen similar issues with the KY11? > > > The KY11-LB is "just another" peripheral on the UNIBUS. So if the KY11-LB > creates a problem on the UNIBUS the rest of the system will have problems > too. I once had a KY11-LB that misbehaved. What the symptoms were, I > can not remember, maybe that's described on my website. > Anyway, it turned out to be a faulty RAM chip. After I had found the cause, > I have replaced (sorry Tony, swapped) the module, because at the time I > could not find a replacement 4 bit, 16 nibble RAM chip. I am no longer > searching, but one day I hope to replace the RAM chip, if only to prove that > I did find the fault ... > > - Henk, PA8PDP From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 18:34:54 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs In-Reply-To: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Several builders have asked about the XT-IDE V2 PCBs and I have > reordered a batch. They should be here the second week of August. They > will be identical to the previous batch of boards. I will announce when the > PCBs arrive. Please do not send any funds until the boards arrive. What's the difference between the original and V2? -- From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Jul 22 19:21:40 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:21:40 -0400 Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <632092DC-38AF-4B3E-B0CE-4D254BBE6544@xlisper.com> On Jul 22, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi Dwight, >> >> Thanks for your suggestions. >> >> I just opened up my H89 and there are a bunch of modules plugged into >> a backplane. The backplane itself is labeled "mako data products MH89 >> plus 3". I guess it's a third party module. Plugged into it were the >> following modules: > > That does not sound like a 'stock' H89. The original layout was somethign > like : > > At hte back are 2 large-ish PCBs. The rearmost one is the H19/Z19 > terminal (Z80 baseed). In front of it is another Z80 processor board that > runs the user software (CPM, etc). There are 6 (IIRC) connectors o nthis > board for add-ones, 3 each side of the CRT neck. They are not all the > same by any means. One of the ones on the left is normally ued for an > eaxta 16K RAM card (which is bank-switched with the boot ROM, etc). The > ones on the right normally hold a triple RS222 port card and 1 or 2 > floppy controllers. This one seems to have a third party backplane that will accept six boards on the right side. There is also a module plugged into one of the slots on the left side that looks like extended memory. > >> >> DISK I/O 85-2601-1 >> >> DOUBLE DENSITY 85-2597-1 >> >> SERIAL/PARALLEL I/O BOARD >> >> N.O.G.D.S HA-89-3-B >> >> ATRA H-101-A with a H-201-B daughterboard >> >> The last two seem like they have something to do with sound generation >> and the N.O.G.D.S. board also has a video chip on it. > > WHich video chip? TMS9918 > > Wheee is the processor in all this? Do you have the H89 docuemntation? If > so, is there any similarly between your machine and the docs? Sorry, I failed to mention that the normal CPU and terminal boards are behind the CRT at the back of the case. >> >> Beyond that, there are six toggle switches mounted between the main >> keyboard and the numeric keypad and another toggle switch mounted on the >> floppy drive along with a second LED. > > Cerainly non-standerd. Whare are the switches and LED connected to? I don't see any way to discover what they're connected to without doing a major disassembly. >> >> Do you have any idea what any of this stuff is? In particular, do you >> know if the two disk controller boards are for hard or soft sectored >> drives? > > The drive are the same, there's no index/sector pulse seapration don in > 5.25" drives. > > IRIC, the oriignal Heathkit controlelr was for hard sectored disks, and > used a synchronous serial chip and soem glue logic. Nothing that screams > 'floppy controller'. The double-desnity card ad a Western Digital > (WD179x?) chip on it, and used soft-sectoroed disks. > > I'd look at the cards you have, see if you vna identify any of the ICs. I've tried to disassemble as little as possible so far. The disk controllers I believe are standard Heathkit ones. I've looked up the board numbers and they seem to correspond to the hard-sectored controller and the double density soft-sectored controller. The double density board has a floppy controller chip on it. > -tony > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jul 22 19:30:20 2012 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:30:20 -0500 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <500C9B1C.5070301@brutman.com> I would like to point out that there is a jrIDE sidecar, which was originally derived from the XT-IDE work but is quite different now. Here are the main features: - fits inside of an existing PCjr sidecar shell - Adds 512KB of SRAM to fill the machine out to 640KB - Adds an IDE interface using an adapted XT-IDE BIOS - Real time clock (uses a command line utility at the moment) - POST display - The BIOS boots directly from the IDE drive - Implemented using CPLD to keep the chip count down - IDE registers are memory mapped - this sucker is fast! I originally grafted an XT-IDE onto a PCjr and modified (hacked up) an early version of the BIOS to work. That lead to ideas and discussion, and eventually the jr-IDE sidecar. Alan H ("eeguru") did the design and implementation work. I've done most of the BIOS work. Details, including how to get one can be found here: http://www.brutman.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180 The short story: Kits are $70, and you have to provide your own sidecar shell. We have a few happy people using them now. But it was a limited run of cards (20-25?) so they won't last forever. Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 19:47:32 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 21:47:32 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> <500C9B1C.5070301@brutman.com> Message-ID: Congratulations, Michael! I never had a PC-JR but I find it to be a very interesting computer. These old gems are pretty rare in Brazil. I've never SEEN a PC-JR in Brazil (although I had its color monitor - it was my FIRST color monitor) and talking old PCs, just ONE Tandy 1000 :o( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 9:30 PM Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) > > I would like to point out that there is a jrIDE sidecar, which was > originally derived from the XT-IDE work but is quite different now. Here > are the main features: > > - fits inside of an existing PCjr sidecar shell > - Adds 512KB of SRAM to fill the machine out to 640KB > - Adds an IDE interface using an adapted XT-IDE BIOS > - Real time clock (uses a command line utility at the moment) > - POST display > - The BIOS boots directly from the IDE drive > - Implemented using CPLD to keep the chip count down > - IDE registers are memory mapped - this sucker is fast! > > > I originally grafted an XT-IDE onto a PCjr and modified (hacked up) an > early version of the BIOS to work. That lead to ideas and discussion, and > eventually the jr-IDE sidecar. Alan H ("eeguru") did the design and > implementation work. I've done most of the BIOS work. > > Details, including how to get one can be found here: > > http://www.brutman.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180 > > > The short story: Kits are $70, and you have to provide your own sidecar > shell. We have a few happy people using them now. But it was a limited > run of cards (20-25?) so they won't last forever. > > > Mike > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 22 20:07:15 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 21:07:15 -0400 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> <500C9B1C.5070301@brutman.com> Message-ID: <21C7E56D7DB24D7B92ADA3E67BF32BA8@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 8:47 PM Subject: Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) > > Congratulations, Michael! I never had a PC-JR but I find it to be a > very interesting computer. > > These old gems are pretty rare in Brazil. I've never SEEN a PC-JR in > Brazil (although I had its color monitor - it was my FIRST color monitor) > and talking old PCs, just ONE Tandy 1000 :o( > > --- You guys had all those MSX machines to play with that never made it to the US. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 20:16:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:16:56 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> <500C9B1C.5070301@brutman.com> <21C7E56D7DB24D7B92ADA3E67BF32BA8@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <3EDC60603824419F8D2353C9ADB8E277@tababook> > You guys had all those MSX machines to play with that never made it to the > US. Eh, more or less...you had the spectravideo machines and the Yamaha CX series which were sold in USA :o) But you're right, MSX had a huge impact into brazilian computer market at that time. It was the first "semi-professional" computer that could be bought by parents. We had many clones of apple, TRS-80 and like before, but all of them were VERY expensive. You could buy an Apple ][+ clone with 64K, 128K expansion, a pair of floppy drives, controler and monitor. Or, with the same money, a brand new VW beetle :o) But no PC JR :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jul 22 20:42:07 2012 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:42:07 -0500 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> <500C9B1C.5070301@brutman.com> Message-ID: <500CABEF.30800@brutman.com> Thanks, but I want to stress that it is only partly my work. I did the original hacking to get the original XT-IDE onto the PCjr, but the sidecar is way way far more advanced than that work. Alan (not on the list) did a great job with it. It took a little debugging to get it stable, but I've been using my machine happily since then. If you've never seen a PCjr, don't despair - think of a near PC clone that is almost impossible to upgrade because the expansion bus is non-standard and you can have conflicts with the built-in goodies. Having a PCjr that can boot from a hard drive directly using its BIOS is a magical thing. Like the XT-IDE, the intent is to use a modern IDE drive that supports LBA access. (Compact Flash with an adapter or Disk On Module are equivalent.) I've measured better than 300KB/sec reads from a Maxtor 20GB hard drive and 160KB/sec writes. Now all we need is a native Ethernet adapter ... Mike From asc135 at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 20:54:55 2012 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 21:54:55 -0400 Subject: GNT tech docs Message-ID: > > This might be a second post, I got a weird error message the first time. > > > I just scanned my technical manual for the GNT 4604/5 which has many references to the 4601. > > It does include schematics. You can find it here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/GNT/ > > Bob > Many, many, many thanks! I bought a new-old-stock GNT-4604 about a decade ago. It was so exciting to open the foil seal and --- nothing worked. I did find the problem. It had cold solder joints on the control board. But having the service manual means I can keep it running for years to come. I also have a GNT-4601 so I'm doubly appreciative. Your work will not have been in vain! Amardeep From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 20:56:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:56:45 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> <500C9B1C.5070301@brutman.com> <500CABEF.30800@brutman.com> Message-ID: <6DA9786DD0AE4D10BAB39781B37C29DD@tababook> > Now all we need is a native Ethernet adapter ... Tips from someone who did a pair for the MSX computer: - The RTL8029 is very easy to use, and you can use the usual DOS drivers, but it will have to use all the TCP stack on the PC. And you can use old ISA interfaces without changes to prototype and even use it. All the needed pins are on the ISA bus. - The wizchip modules are very easy to use, all the TCP stack is inside of it. It will offload a lot of processing and you can map the module/chip as a 16K RAM space onto your PC, but you'll have to write new drivers for everyting, remembering it will be easier - ALL TCP processing is done inside the chip If you need tips, drop me a mail. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Jul 22 21:05:46 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:05:46 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the power supply. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 > > > Sent from my iPhone > I'm jealous. I've been after the 832 for years. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 21:13:45 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:13:45 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7553D153-933D-41EF-8816-BCE7AEC159E0@me.com> Odds are good once I've got it going I'll part with it. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 10:05 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > > On Jul 22, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the power supply. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > I'm jealous. I've been after the 832 for years. > > Rob > > > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > > Colourfull Creations > http://www.colourfull.com > > > > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Jul 22 21:17:22 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:17:22 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <7553D153-933D-41EF-8816-BCE7AEC159E0@me.com> References: <7553D153-933D-41EF-8816-BCE7AEC159E0@me.com> Message-ID: <341684B7-A20D-4826-B393-5B441A115E31@colourfull.com> On Jul 22, 2012, at 10:13 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Odds are good once I've got it going I'll part with it. > > Sent from my iPad > > Cool Paul, we need to stay in touch. I'm definitely interested. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Jul 22 21:24:38 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:24:38 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B7C9E53-6178-4AD6-8929-F7600B260547@colourfull.com> On Jul 22, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the power supply. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 > > > Sent from my iPhone > Hey Paul, I got the schematic open, where were you measuring the clock signal from? Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jul 22 21:35:58 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:35:58 -0700 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Jul 22, at 2:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I > finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't > running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the > fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the > power supply. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 From your video, with 0.4V of 120Hz ripple on a clock output, you might back up and check/measure/scope the power supply, look at what's going into the regulator and what's coming out. From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 21:45:44 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:45:44 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <2B7C9E53-6178-4AD6-8929-F7600B260547@colourfull.com> References: <2B7C9E53-6178-4AD6-8929-F7600B260547@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <330B0DFE-7894-415B-B9F1-3B4B7D29B0A3@me.com> >From the CLK connection on the computer control 1 board. With some digging, I think I've got the clock running, but it is too slow. There is one dominant problem I need to tackle. The power supply has a 0.4v p-p ripple at 125Hz. Theres a filter capacitor that I think needs to be swapped out. The main clock and T2 signals appear to have massive jitter. Looks like I forgot to take pictures of that. As for my oscilloscope: it's a Tektronix mainframe scope, 100MHz bandwidth, dual trace. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 10:24 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > > On Jul 22, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the power supply. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > Hey Paul, > I got the schematic open, where were you measuring the clock signal from? > > Rob > > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > > Colourfull Creations > http://www.colourfull.com > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 22 22:17:17 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <6DA9786DD0AE4D10BAB39781B37C29DD@tababook> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Jul 22, 12 10:56:45 pm" Message-ID: <201207230317.q6N3HHXx4391138@floodgap.com> > > Now all we need is a native Ethernet adapter ... > > Tips from someone who did a pair for the MSX computer: > - The RTL8029 is very easy to use, and you can use the usual DOS > drivers, but it will have to use all the TCP stack on the PC. And you can > use old ISA interfaces without changes to prototype and even use it. All the > needed pins are on the ISA bus. Why not a Cirrus Logic CS8900A ("Crystal LAN")? These are very easy to interface also (see C64 RRNet). > - The wizchip modules are very easy to use, all the TCP stack is inside > of it. It will offload a lot of processing and you can map the module/chip > as a 16K RAM space onto your PC, but you'll have to write new drivers for > everyting, remembering it will be easier - ALL TCP processing is done inside > the chip I like these as well, though they can require some external programming. Personally if I were going to offload TCP to another device I'd use one of the Lantronix UDS series, which are nice all-in-one units. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Queen, you shall be it if you wish/Look for your king -- Pink Floyd -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 22 22:18:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <500CABEF.30800@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Jul 22, 12 08:42:07 pm" Message-ID: <201207230318.q6N3IRWd4391150@floodgap.com> > If you've never seen a PCjr, don't despair - think of a near PC clone > that is almost impossible to upgrade because the expansion bus is > non-standard and you can have conflicts with the built-in goodies. The Peanut is an appealing little system. Always liked the graphics and sound. If only IBM had made it cheaper. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot trust this technology stuff. -- Ira Oldham ---------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 22:30:52 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 00:30:52 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <201207230317.q6N3HHXx4391138@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Why not a Cirrus Logic CS8900A ("Crystal LAN")? These are very easy to > interface also (see C64 RRNet). Well, I'm talking about what I know. The RTL is **very easy** to find and there is plenty of source-code for PC for driving it. I don't know about the Crystal LAN chip. > I like these as well, though they can require some external programming. > Personally if I were going to offload TCP to another device I'd use one of > the Lantronix UDS series, which are nice all-in-one units. But the Wizchip is so cheap! And so easy to use! Why use lantronix (waaayyy expensive)??? From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Jul 22 23:51:16 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 00:51:16 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7488D164-E3C7-4108-93C9-93D49F72A5AB@me.com> I checked out the power supply. It's basically a common-base amplifier with a 5.6v Zener diode. It doesn't have a full-wave bridge rectifier. Theres a 4,000uf electrolytic capacitor for filtering the input to the transistor. Given the design, I'd expect it to be pretty sensitive to problems with that capacitor. If I have a suitable part, I think I will replace the transistor and the diode with a proper 7805 regulator. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-22, at 10:35 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Jul 22, at 2:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I'm currently working on restoring a NRI 832 computer trainer. I finally got my oscilloscope on it. It looks like the clock isn't running. You can see the waveform in this video. I tried both the fast(250kHz) and slow(2Hz) clock. I'm just seeing noise from the power supply. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBV4QgQHq98 > > > From your video, with 0.4V of 120Hz ripple on a clock output, you might back up and check/measure/scope the power supply, look at what's going into the regulator and what's coming out. > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 23 02:18:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:18:21 -0600 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <7488D164-E3C7-4108-93C9-93D49F72A5AB@me.com> References: <7488D164-E3C7-4108-93C9-93D49F72A5AB@me.com> Message-ID: <500CFABD.9010402@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I checked out the power supply. It's basically a common-base amplifier with a 5.6v Zener diode. It doesn't have a full-wave bridge rectifier. Theres a 4,000uf electrolytic capacitor for filtering the input to the transistor. Given the design, I'd expect it to be pretty sensitive to problems with that capacitor. If I have a suitable part, I think I will replace the transistor and the diode with a proper 7805 regulator. I'd recommend keeping it as original as possible. If the capacitor is good it should regulate fine, and if the capacitor is bad, it needs to be replaced. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 01:46:23 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:46:23 +0200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:11 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: > The insight came when I looked at which keys on the number pad worked > and which didn't. I came up with the following table > > Pressed = Displayed > 1 = 1 > 2 = 0 > 3 = 1 > 4 = 4 > 5 = 5 > 6 = 4 > 7 = 5 > 0 = 0 > > If you convert this to binary it becomes pretty obvious where the > problem lies. The invalid display is for the items marked with * and > all have the second bit set. If you mask out the second bit you get > the displayed value. > > 0 = 0000 > 1 = 0001 > 2 = 0010 * > 3 = 0011 * > 4 = 0100 > 5 = 0101 > 6 = 0110 * > 7 = 0111 * > > The front panel uses a 7447 BCD to 7 Segment decoder to drive the LED > modules. If pin 1 (B) on this is not being set when required then the > behaviour will be what I am seeing..... it isn't that the keypad is > getting it wrong... but the display is showing the wrong value due to > a missing bit. > > Need to do a bit more digging here but given that this line is pulled > to +5V via a resistor on the front panel board I am hoping that the > problem is either > a connection problem on the front panel board with the line not being > pulled up or the 7447 needs to be replaced. If there was a break in > the ribbon table to the controller board then the bit would always be > set and a different set of incorrect values would be displayed. > > Hopefully there isn't a fault on the controller board that is pulling > the pin to ground. It's likely there's a driver chip on the controller board with an open collector output (something like a 7438). That output could very well be shorted to ground. That would in fact be my first suspect for this error. Camiel. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 23 03:31:12 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:31:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: GA SPC-16 (was: GNT tech docs) In-Reply-To: <1342990438.94494.YahooMailClassic@web181504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342990438.94494.YahooMailClassic@web181504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > http://www.dvq.com/docs/GNT/ That reminds me that I still have a GA SPC-16 without any bit of software and without technical manuals/schematics. Do you happen to have these? I could need some scans/dumps because our machine needs repair and a memory board (missing). I've always wanted to ask but forgot... Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 23 04:19:04 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 11:19:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DG Nova 3 Message-ID: Hi everyone, we have finally received our first Nova. It was installed in a classroom at a school where they taught some basics of computer science. They bought it new in 1978 and used it until 1986. All parts still look like new, no obvious yellowing or worn fronts. The system consists of the Nova 3/12 and 6050-2 cartridge disk drive in a 19" high-boy cabinet and two terminals, a Dasher 6042 printing terminal and a Dasher 6052-2 CRT terminal - both have a very cool design! Now to my question ;-) The system came with several cartridges (containing RDOS and BASIC, as far as I can tell), but *no* manuals. I haven't found any manual for our system components on the net (nothing on bitsavers, too). Does anyone have scans/images? I would need at least the Nova 3 printset and diagnostics (e.g. papertape images) in case it needs repair or maintenance. After all, even if the power supply and CPU seem to work, I'd like to be sure everything is ok after 26 years. (The former user, a teacher, didn't even know that you could dismantle the rack, nor did he ever pull out the CPU or the power cable from the rack...). Christian PS: Repairing the key switches in the terminal keyboards (disintegrated foam) is another story... From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 04:31:18 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 05:31:18 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <002c01cd684a$fedbf8f0$fc93ead0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <00e101cd68b5$f72a3480$e57e9d80$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 7:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs > > On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > > Hi! Several builders have asked about the XT-IDE V2 PCBs and I have > > reordered a batch. They should be here the second week of August. > > They will be identical to the previous batch of boards. I will > > announce when the PCBs arrive. Please do not send any funds until the > boards arrive. > > What's the difference between the original and V2? > > > -- The XT-IDE V2 cleans up the board a bit, adds a bunch of option jumpers, supports larger EEPROM (8KB-32KB), offers the "chuck mod" IO register remapping for improved transfer speed (DMA mode not necessary). It also has a UART for external boot protocol over a serial line. All of this is supported by the BIOS. It is a group project at Vintage-Computer.com forums. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 23:41:18 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 23:41:18 -0500 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: <2AE23740-8F80-4719-8CA0-5077DE42783E@me.com> Message-ID: show ur dad this http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6105564950/in/set-72157626588529217/lightbox/ i've since aquired a rl02 drive or 3 and a controller for it with cables how did i? because of the curiosity of the heathkit h89 that sat in the basement and the ge workmaster and the osborne's we had laying around when i was growing up and not knowing what the h11 that sat in the closset up stairs did From microcode at zoho.com Mon Jul 23 05:19:10 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:19:10 +0000 Subject: Old scans of 73 magazine available Message-ID: <201207231019.q6NAJJpj025089@billy.ezwind.net> http://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3A73-magazine&sort=-publicdate From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 23 08:34:46 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Jul 23, 12 00:30:52 am" Message-ID: <201207231334.q6NDYkgo13041682@floodgap.com> > > Why not a Cirrus Logic CS8900A ("Crystal LAN")? These are very easy to > > interface also (see C64 RRNet). > > Well, I'm talking about what I know. The RTL is **very easy** to find > and there is plenty of source-code for PC for driving it. I don't know about > the Crystal LAN chip. The Crystal LAN is essentially an NE2000 clone. > > I like these as well, though they can require some external programming. > > Personally if I were going to offload TCP to another device I'd use one of > > the Lantronix UDS series, which are nice all-in-one units. > > But the Wizchip is so cheap! And so easy to use! Why use lantronix > (waaayyy expensive)??? Because the Lantronix is preassembled, all in a box; just plug it in. You can't really compare the cost of a full design versus a single chip. But, if people just want to add a chip on a card, I agree the Wizchips are nice, but they require some external help sometimes to fix their network mode which is inconvenient. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When people get acupuncture, do voodoo dolls die? -------------------------- From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jul 23 08:39:03 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay jaeger) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:39:03 -0600 Subject: DG Nova 3 Message-ID: I have some of what you may need, but will need to scan it in. I do not have a full print set - unlike Dec, those are more rare in the dg world. But I won't be able to do anything until mid august. Check bitsavers.org, and also contact wildharecomputers.com Christian Corti wrote: >Hi everyone, > >we have finally received our first Nova. It was installed in a classroom >at a school where they taught some basics of computer science. They bought >it new in 1978 and used it until 1986. All parts still look like new, no >obvious yellowing or worn fronts. The system consists of the Nova 3/12 and >6050-2 cartridge disk drive in a 19" high-boy cabinet and two terminals, a >Dasher 6042 printing terminal and a Dasher 6052-2 CRT terminal - both have >a very cool design! > Now to my question ;-) The system came with several cartridges >(containing RDOS and BASIC, as far as I can tell), but *no* manuals. I >haven't found any manual for our system components on the net (nothing on >bitsavers, too). Does anyone have scans/images? I would need at least the >Nova 3 printset and diagnostics (e.g. papertape images) in case it needs >repair or maintenance. After all, even if the power supply and CPU seem to >work, I'd like to be sure everything is ok after 26 years. (The former >user, a teacher, didn't even know that you could dismantle the rack, nor >did he ever pull out the CPU or the power cable from the rack...). > >Christian > >PS: >Repairing the key switches in the terminal keyboards (disintegrated >foam) is another story... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 09:29:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 11:29:30 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <201207231334.q6NDYkgo13041682@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FD4B91753FE4F0DB4C1391DECB8775E@tababook> > Because the Lantronix is preassembled, all in a box; just plug it in. You > can't really compare the cost of a full design versus a single chip. Wizchip too. There is the chip AND the fully assembled module. From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Mon Jul 23 10:13:48 2012 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 09:13:48 -0600 Subject: DG Nova 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500D6A2C.30905@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Christian - I will contact you off-list with the information you seek... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 7/23/2012 3:19 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi everyone, > > we have finally received our first Nova. It was installed in a classroom > at a school where they taught some basics of computer science. They > bought it new in 1978 and used it until 1986. All parts still look like > new, no obvious yellowing or worn fronts. The system consists of the > Nova 3/12 and 6050-2 cartridge disk drive in a 19" high-boy cabinet and > two terminals, a Dasher 6042 printing terminal and a Dasher 6052-2 CRT > terminal - both have a very cool design! > Now to my question ;-) The system came with several cartridges > (containing RDOS and BASIC, as far as I can tell), but *no* manuals. I > haven't found any manual for our system components on the net (nothing > on bitsavers, too). Does anyone have scans/images? I would need at least > the Nova 3 printset and diagnostics (e.g. papertape images) in case it > needs repair or maintenance. After all, even if the power supply and CPU > seem to work, I'd like to be sure everything is ok after 26 years. (The > former user, a teacher, didn't even know that you could dismantle the > rack, nor did he ever pull out the CPU or the power cable from the > rack...). > > Christian > > PS: > Repairing the key switches in the terminal keyboards (disintegrated > foam) is another story... From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 23 10:27:36 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <4FD4B91753FE4F0DB4C1391DECB8775E@tababook> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Jul 23, 12 11:29:30 am" Message-ID: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> > > Because the Lantronix is preassembled, all in a box; just plug it in. You > > can't really compare the cost of a full design versus a single chip. > > Wizchip too. There is the chip AND the fully assembled module. What, this? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIZnet/WIZ1000/?qs=b%252bXOOdUOuvYpKhQzMvxuZ016H9Qky3Rd Have you used the Lantronix? Besides being a higher quality case and build, the software and configuration is much nicer. The UDS-1100, which is the current UDS version, is around $120, which is not massively more. This is not to say that the Wiznet box/chips are poor choices (they're not), and there are lots of applications where the niceties of the Lantronix aren't worth the cost, but I really think you're not making a fair comparison. Having used a Wiznet and both a Lantronix UDS-10 and UDS-100, the Lantronix boxes offer a much more complete and higher quality package. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Another visitor. Stay awhile. Stay forever! -- Professor Elvin Atombender -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 10:45:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:45:55 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> > What, this? > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIZnet/WIZ1000/?qs=b%252bXOOdUOuvYpKhQzMvxuZ016H9Qky3Rd Nooo, this one: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9473 > Have you used the Lantronix? Besides being a higher quality case and > build, > the software and configuration is much nicer. The UDS-1100, which is the > current UDS version, is around $120, which is not massively more. 24,95 for the wizchip module :o) > This is not to say that the Wiznet box/chips are poor choices (they're > not), > and there are lots of applications where the niceties of the Lantronix > aren't > worth the cost, but I really think you're not making a fair comparison. Sure I am. I'm creating a simple and cheap internet card for an old computer. If Wizchip works, why would I use Lantronix? > Having used a Wiznet and both a Lantronix UDS-10 and UDS-100, the > Lantronix > boxes offer a much more complete and higher quality package. I'll take a look at lantronix modules, but as I said before: If it works, and it is cheaper, why bother? I won't buy a $199 Fluke multimeter, just to test continuity. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:20:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:20:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Heathkit H89 maybe? In-Reply-To: <632092DC-38AF-4B3E-B0CE-4D254BBE6544@xlisper.com> from "David Betz" at Jul 22, 12 08:21:40 pm Message-ID: > > At the back are 2 large-ish PCBs. The rearmost one is the H19/Z19 > > terminal (Z80 baseed). In front of it is another Z80 processor board that > > runs the user software (CPM, etc). There are 6 (IIRC) connectors o nthis > > board for add-ones, 3 each side of the CRT neck. They are not all the > > same by any means. One of the ones on the left is normally ued for an > > eaxta 16K RAM card (which is bank-switched with the boot ROM, etc). The > > ones on the right normally hold a triple RS222 port card and 1 or 2 > > floppy controllers. > > This one seems to have a third party backplane that will accept six This is connected to the normal CPU board I assume. > boards on the right side. There is also a module plugged into one of > the slots on the left side that looks like extended memory. [...] > >> N.O.G.D.S HA-89-3-B > >> > >> ATRA H-101-A with a H-201-B daughterboard > >> > >> The last two seem like they have something to do with sound generation > >> and the N.O.G.D.S. board also has a video chip on it. > > > > WHich video chip? > > TMS9918 Strange... Is there a conenctor for an external (colour?) monitor, or is the video from this combind with the video from the terminal logic board and displayed on the internal monitor? > >> Beyond that, there are six toggle switches mounted between the main > >> keyboard and the numeric keypad and another toggle switch mounted on the > >> floppy drive along with a second LED. > > > > Cerainly non-standerd. Whare are the switches and LED connected to? > > I don't see any way to discover what they're connected to without doing a major disassembly. The floppy drive normally comes out quite easily, so you should be able to get to that switch/LED. The keyboard is held on by 4 screws on the bottom of the case, it comes off too, but be careful due to the estra conenctions to the switches. I think you are goign to have to take this machine apart quite a long way, and it's not an easy thing to work on. My method (on a 'stock' Z90) was to rememer that it was a Z19 terminal with bits added, and that if you removed them in the reverse order to that which they would be fitted to upgrad step-by-step, it all comes apart. So take out the floppy drive, then loosen the CPU board, take out al lteh boards plugged into it (floppy controller, etc), then the CPU board itself. then the terminal logic board. > I've tried to disassemble as little as possible so far. The disk It's looks tight, but remember it was assmeble,d and even designed ot be assembled by a hobbyist. So it is possible to work on. > controllers I believe are standard Heathkit ones. I've looked up the > board numbers and they seem to correspond to the hard-sectored > controller and the double density soft-sectored controller. The double > density board has a floppy controller chip on it. That sounds right. Having the 2 controllers is not uncommon. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 23 14:27:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:27:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <7488D164-E3C7-4108-93C9-93D49F72A5AB@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Jul 23, 12 00:51:16 am Message-ID: > > I checked out the power supply. It's basically a common-base amplifier > with a 5.6v Zener diode. It doesn't have a full-wave bridge rectifier. Are you sure? Most such regualtor circuits are emitter followers with the base held at a suitable voltage by the zener. What is the input rectifier? Half wave? Or a pair of diodes and a centre-tapped transfofmer secondary winding (which is a full-wave circuit)? > Theres a 4,000uf electrolytic capacitor for filtering the input to the > transistor. Given the design, I'd expect it to be pretty sensitive to > problems with that capacitor. If I have a suitable part, I think I will I don't see why. If the ripple is sufficiuently low that the zener stays conducting all the time, then the output voltage will be stable. A 7805 won;t do better than that. > replace the transistor and the diode with a proper 7805 regulator. Check the output for ripple. If necessary, replace that capacitor. But dont change the design if you don't have to. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 23 18:10:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <201207230318.q6N3IRWd4391150@floodgap.com> References: <201207230318.q6N3IRWd4391150@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120723155933.F450@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The Peanut is an appealing little system. Always liked the graphics and > sound. If only IBM had made it cheaper. IBM did make attempts to find out what corners they could cut to make it cheaper. (In IBM relative terms, NOT "cheap" by THIS group's standards). They got a resounding response that they could make it single floppy, no hard disk, with limited expandability to cut costs. 'Course, sho'nuff, as soon as it came out it was thoroughly trashed for it's expansion limits. Disunirregardless of what their "focus groups" told them, as soon as they bought the machine, they wanted to make it do the same identical things as their office computers. IBM provided exactly what they ASKED for, but not what they wanted. IBM, also, once again, proved that they were too big to learn from the mistakes of others, and just like the Coco, ended up giving away FREE replacement keyboards, due to the public hatred of chiclets. (The replacement keyboards were NOT an improvement of MECHANISM, just making the keys shaped like typewriter keys, instead of like chiclets) The cordless keyboard was a nice move. But many people HATED it, because the batteries had a finite life, and couldn't wrap their minds around the simple concept that a phone cord would permit it to run without batteries. The Jr. keyboard velcro'd on top of a mouse solves the issue of how many buttons a mouse should have. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 23 21:34:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120723193313.I6740@shell.lmi.net> > On 07/23/2012 11:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Sure I am. I'm creating a simple and cheap internet card for an old > > computer. If Wizchip works, why would I use Lantronix? On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > [head explodes] > "Internet card"?! I was too embarrassed to admit that I have noi idea what an "internet card" IS -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 23 10:58:35 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Jul 23, 12 12:45:55 pm" Message-ID: <201207231558.q6NFwZVc13434954@floodgap.com> > > What, this? > > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIZnet/WIZ1000/?qs=b%252bXOOdUOuvYpKhQzMvxuZ016H9Qky3Rd > > Nooo, this one: > http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9473 Now we really are talking apples to oranges. The one I posted was a fully enclosed Wiznet package, but this one is a board. In fairness, you don't have a board option for the Lantronix, so that point I will concede, but I'd rather have a box. And you haven't addressed the criticism I made two posts ago: the Wiznet has an inconvenience where if its settings get fouled, you need an external machine that already has Ethernet to send it new configuration information (at least the protocol is documented, but it is not a fully self-contained solution). The Lantronix can be reset from the computer it is connected to. I'm just going to conclude by saying I really do like the Wiznet for what it is, but the Wiznet is cheap, and you get what you pay for. If the Lantronix is overkill for your application, fine, but I get a lot more mileage out of my UDS modules than the Wiznet modules I have. I'll shut up now, since this is probably not helping Michael decide. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. -- Napoleon Bonaparte --------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jul 23 10:52:00 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <201207231558.q6NFwZVc13434954@floodgap.com> References: <201207231558.q6NFwZVc13434954@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> What, this? >>> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIZnet/WIZ1000/?qs=b%252bXOOdUOuvYpKhQzMvxuZ016H9Qky3Rd >> >> Nooo, this one: >> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9473 > > And you haven't addressed the criticism I made two posts ago: the Wiznet has > an inconvenience where if its settings get fouled, you need an external > machine that already has Ethernet to send it new configuration information > (at least the protocol is documented, but it is not a fully self-contained > solution). The Lantronix can be reset from the computer it is connected to. > As far as I know, this is incorrect. The Comet 64 uses the Wiz1000 module and you can change the settings from the serial side of the device. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 11:28:34 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:28:34 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <201207231558.q6NFwZVc13434954@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <92EE62A59C914D498D78BF79F7A70826@tababook> > Now we really are talking apples to oranges. The one I posted was a fully > enclosed Wiznet package, but this one is a board. In fairness, you don't > have a board option for the Lantronix, so that point I will concede, but > I'd rather have a box. No, I was talking about this module since the beginning of this thread. > And you haven't addressed the criticism I made two posts ago: the Wiznet > has > an inconvenience where if its settings get fouled, you need an external > machine that already has Ethernet to send it new configuration information > (at least the protocol is documented, but it is not a fully self-contained > solution). The Lantronix can be reset from the computer it is connected > to. I don't know what is is. None of my devices on the wild (more than 2K devices built) has this problem. Can you illustrate a situation where it certainly happens? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 23 11:30:29 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Jul 23, 12 08:52:00 am" Message-ID: <201207231630.q6NGUTwa11337754@floodgap.com> > > And you haven't addressed the criticism I made two posts ago: the Wiznet has > > an inconvenience where if its settings get fouled, you need an external > > machine that already has Ethernet to send it new configuration information > > (at least the protocol is documented, but it is not a fully self-contained > > solution). The Lantronix can be reset from the computer it is connected to. > > As far as I know, this is incorrect. The Comet 64 uses the Wiz1000 module > and you can change the settings from the serial side of the device. Right, if the chip is already in the correct mode. To bring it up cold, you need to talk to it over the network (using its ARP address). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I think, therefore I'm dangerous. ------------------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 23 11:41:22 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 09:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <92EE62A59C914D498D78BF79F7A70826@tababook> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Jul 23, 12 01:28:34 pm" Message-ID: <201207231641.q6NGfMhB5832738@floodgap.com> > I don't know what is is. None of my devices on the wild (more than 2K > devices built) has this problem. Can you illustrate a situation where it > certainly happens? Right out of the manual for my WIZ105, section 4.2: "At the default status, the serial configuration is disabled." If you're bringing the device up cold, *or* the settings got whacked and serial configuration is off, you *can't* configure it over serial; you *must* use the Ethernet configuration tool. Now, once this is done, it works fine, assuming the internal settings don't get munged. I did this once by mistake when I was flubbing a config string, so you can definitely screw it up in addition to any kind of random scrambling event. They may have changed this in later versions of the chip, so if they fixed this, great. The ones I've dealt with all have this issue. Is this a crippling limitation? No. It's just a limitation that the Lantronix boxes don't have. If this isn't a limitation for your application, or you can program around it, then it should be okay. But I like the Lantronix better. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Jul 23 13:04:52 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:04:52 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120723180452.GA48797@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:50:27 +0200 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > No thanks Jochen. But the Idea is good. > > I have 2 parallel interface boards (with and w/o DMA) myself so > > I could at least try this way. > OK. I see. You are well equiped in this depatement. > > > Still have to copy cour disks... > No need to hurry. I was waiting for these disks to appear for 10 years. > One month more or less doesn't count. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} This monday the Tek has finally arrived. There was no real function, it seemed that only the flood system was working. Measured something here and there and found an non working OPV in the HV Circuit (?A709), replaced it but still not working. Finally decided to desolder the wires from the HV Transformer to heater from the wirting gun and measured no connection. O shit.! Dismounted the fan on the back and looked inside towards the tubes socket, ...hmm crooked???? Pulled on the wires and the socked was loose. I've found some bent Pins on the tube strigthened them carefully and took the socket back in Place, switched on the Power and voila! The tube pictured the test spiral... The Tube has some small burns, but really isn't that bad. I think I'll never see another Tek 6110 Storage Tube, so that thing must work as is. (or has someone another in stock and wants to sell it into a good home?) I think tests with the PDP11 and D/A converters have to wait until winter, thats getting too much warmt in here... The Tek Unit was repainted in dark grey, I'll leave it as it is. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From 74s181 at gmx.de Mon Jul 23 14:53:40 2012 From: 74s181 at gmx.de (Andre Schaefer) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:53:40 +0200 Subject: DG Nova 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500DABC4.3010402@gmx.de> Hi, I restorated three Nova 3/12 in the last years, maybe I can also help here and there. Some of my activities are documented on: http://74s181.blogspot.de/ http://www.youtube.com/vcnova Andre Am 23.07.2012 11:19, schrieb Christian Corti: > Hi everyone, > > we have finally received our first Nova. It was installed in a classroom > at a school where they taught some basics of computer science. They > bought it new in 1978 and used it until 1986. All parts still look like > new, no obvious yellowing or worn fronts. The system consists of the > Nova 3/12 and 6050-2 cartridge disk drive in a 19" high-boy cabinet and > two terminals, a Dasher 6042 printing terminal and a Dasher 6052-2 CRT > terminal - both have a very cool design! > Now to my question ;-) The system came with several cartridges > (containing RDOS and BASIC, as far as I can tell), but *no* manuals. I > haven't found any manual for our system components on the net (nothing > on bitsavers, too). Does anyone have scans/images? I would need at least > the Nova 3 printset and diagnostics (e.g. papertape images) in case it > needs repair or maintenance. After all, even if the power supply and CPU > seem to work, I'd like to be sure everything is ok after 26 years. (The > former user, a teacher, didn't even know that you could dismantle the > rack, nor did he ever pull out the CPU or the power cable from the > rack...). > > Christian > > PS: > Repairing the key switches in the terminal keyboards (disintegrated > foam) is another story... From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 23 15:12:21 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:12:21 -0600 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets In-Reply-To: <500BAEE9.2090102@gmail.com> References: <500BAEE9.2090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <500BAEE9.2090102 at gmail.com>, Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > The Tech manual on bitsavers ( > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-TM-001_VK100_Technica l_Manual_Apr82.pdf > ) is missing a lot of information I need, and is also rife with errors! It would be good to have an errata to the technical manual. Can you email up a list of the errors you've spotted so far? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 23 15:15:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:15:02 -0400 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120723180452.GA48797@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120723180452.GA48797@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <500DB0C6.4060901@neurotica.com> On 07/23/2012 02:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > This monday the Tek has finally arrived. > There was no real function, it seemed that only the flood system was > working. Measured something here and there and found an non working OPV > in the HV Circuit (?A709), Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a while! > replaced it but still not working. > Finally decided to desolder the wires from the HV Transformer to heater > from the wirting gun and measured no connection. O shit.! 8-< > Dismounted the fan on the back and looked inside towards the tubes socket, > ...hmm crooked???? Pulled on the wires and the socked was loose. > I've found some bent Pins on the tube strigthened them carefully and took > the socket back in Place, switched on the Power and voila! The tube > pictured the test spiral... Excellent!! > The Tube has some small burns, but really isn't that bad. I think I'll > never see another Tek 6110 Storage Tube, so that thing must work as is. > (or has someone another in stock and wants to sell it into a good home?) I have a "basket case" 611 here. It was raped for parts. Since I recently got a copy of the documentation (thanks Richard!) I can now dig into it and see what's missing. I hope to be able to repair it, but if it's not repairable, I may not have much reason to keep it. (If it uses the same CRT as my Tek 4012 terminal, which I think it might, then I'd probably keep it for that reason.) > I think tests with the PDP11 and D/A converters have to wait until winter, > thats getting too much warmt in here... You'll have to take a lot of pics of that! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Jul 23 15:22:31 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:22:31 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <051068D4-6D3F-4CD7-9762-B32588CCF42D@me.com> You're right, it is an emitter follower with a full-wave rectifier. The ripple is quite bad, I figure it at 3.5%. I'll have to hunt down an appropriate capacitor. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-23, at 3:27 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> I checked out the power supply. It's basically a common-base amplifier >> with a 5.6v Zener diode. It doesn't have a full-wave bridge rectifier. > > Are you sure? Most such regualtor circuits are emitter followers with the > base held at a suitable voltage by the zener. > > What is the input rectifier? Half wave? Or a pair of diodes and a > centre-tapped transfofmer secondary winding (which is a full-wave > circuit)? > >> Theres a 4,000uf electrolytic capacitor for filtering the input to the >> transistor. Given the design, I'd expect it to be pretty sensitive to >> problems with that capacitor. If I have a suitable part, I think I will > > I don't see why. If the ripple is sufficiuently low that the zener stays > conducting all the time, then the output voltage will be stable. A 7805 > won;t do better than that. > >> replace the transistor and the diode with a proper 7805 regulator. > > Check the output for ripple. If necessary, replace that capacitor. But > dont change the design if you don't have to. > > -tony From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon Jul 23 23:20:08 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:20:08 -0600 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B Message-ID: Hey guys and gals, I have tried and failed to get a successful connection between my uvax II and a pc rs-232 serial port. The H8751-B didn't seem to work, so I pulled it off and wired my own MMJ-DB9 connector. I have tested the MMJ cable, and it works flawlessly. For my connectors I have followed "The Cable" documentation at http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm (chucks house of vax), under "The MicroVAX II" section but it hasn't helped. I have tested the MMJ-DB9 connection from my uvax III consoles and from the microvax 3100 and it works fine, so I think the PC side is working correctly. The MMJ-DB9 on the pc side is DB-9 Pin Color Purpose 1 Pin 4 & 6 2 Yellow Transmit 3 Black Receive 4 Pin 1 & 6 5 Red Signal GND 6 Pin 1 & 4 7 N/A 8 N/A 9 N/A When I toned out the H8571-B connector and this is what it toned out to (using a straight MMJ cable out of the connector: H8571-B Pinout DB-9 Pin Color Purpose 1 N/A 2 Black Transmit (Tx+) 3 Yellow Receive (Rx+) 4 White DSR 5 N/A 6 Blue DTR 7 Red Transmit Ground (Tx-) 8 Pin 8 9 Pin 9 Any idea what pinouts I should use for the H8671-B -> PC connector cable should be? This situation is driving me nuts. Kevin From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 24 00:01:59 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:01:59 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media Message-ID: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> Wonder if anyone is interested in this? 4 1/2 inch floppy prototype supposedly from IBM htttp://www.ebay.com/itm/251110295055 really pricy, but if you are into weird media this might not be something to miss. Jim From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 16:00:03 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:00:03 -0500 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <500DB0C6.4060901@neurotica.com> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120723180452.GA48797@beast.freibergnet.de> <500DB0C6.4060901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have a TEK611 I'll probably be willing to part with when I dig it out in a few months. Paul, or Bruce, or whatever..... On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/23/2012 02:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> This monday the Tek has finally arrived. >> There was no real function, it seemed that only the flood system was >> working. Measured something here and there and found an non working OPV >> in the HV Circuit (?709), > > Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a while! > >> replaced it but still not working. >> Finally decided to desolder the wires from the HV Transformer to heater >> from the wirting gun and measured no connection. O shit.! > > 8-< > >> Dismounted the fan on the back and looked inside towards the tubes socket, >> ...hmm crooked???? Pulled on the wires and the socked was loose. >> I've found some bent Pins on the tube strigthened them carefully and took >> the socket back in Place, switched on the Power and voila! The tube >> pictured the test spiral... > > Excellent!! > >> The Tube has some small burns, but really isn't that bad. I think I'll >> never see another Tek 6110 Storage Tube, so that thing must work as is. >> (or has someone another in stock and wants to sell it into a good home?) > > I have a "basket case" 611 here. It was raped for parts. Since I > recently got a copy of the documentation (thanks Richard!) I can now dig > into it and see what's missing. I hope to be able to repair it, but if > it's not repairable, I may not have much reason to keep it. (If it uses > the same CRT as my Tek 4012 terminal, which I think it might, then I'd > probably keep it for that reason.) > >> I think tests with the PDP11 and D/A converters have to wait until winter, >> thats getting too much warmt in here... > > You'll have to take a lot of pics of that! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 23 16:23:14 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:23:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets In-Reply-To: References: <500BAEE9.2090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <500DC0C2.6050301@bitsavers.org> On 7/23/12 1:12 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<500BAEE9.2090102 at gmail.com>, > Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > >> The Tech manual on bitsavers ( >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-TM-001_VK100_Technica > l_Manual_Apr82.pdf >> ) is missing a lot of information I need, and is also rife with errors! > > It would be good to have an errata to the technical manual. Can you > email up a list of the errors you've spotted so far? that would be a good thing GIGI documentation is very hard to find. From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 17:26:12 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:26:12 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right. These lines are driven by a 7417's on the controller board. DEC seemed to like non-inverting buffers. The resistors on the front panel board hold the line high and the 7417 needs to pull this to ground to get the display segments to light up. Checked with the scope on the front panel board and the second bit of the incoming BCD value isn't going low. Pulling the line to ground on the front panel board causes the 7 segment displays to read correctly so the BCD to 7 segment converter is OK. The cable to the controller board checks out OK so the next step is to check the input and output on the 7417 gate and see if the problem is there. Unfortunately I don't have extender boards so will have to go with the old "solder wires to the chip" trick. On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:11 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: >> The insight came when I looked at which keys on the number pad worked >> and which didn't. I came up with the following table >> >> Pressed = Displayed >> 1 = 1 >> 2 = 0 >> 3 = 1 >> 4 = 4 >> 5 = 5 >> 6 = 4 >> 7 = 5 >> 0 = 0 >> >> If you convert this to binary it becomes pretty obvious where the >> problem lies. The invalid display is for the items marked with * and >> all have the second bit set. If you mask out the second bit you get >> the displayed value. >> >> 0 = 0000 >> 1 = 0001 >> 2 = 0010 * >> 3 = 0011 * >> 4 = 0100 >> 5 = 0101 >> 6 = 0110 * >> 7 = 0111 * >> >> The front panel uses a 7447 BCD to 7 Segment decoder to drive the LED >> modules. If pin 1 (B) on this is not being set when required then the >> behaviour will be what I am seeing..... it isn't that the keypad is >> getting it wrong... but the display is showing the wrong value due to >> a missing bit. >> >> Need to do a bit more digging here but given that this line is pulled >> to +5V via a resistor on the front panel board I am hoping that the >> problem is either >> a connection problem on the front panel board with the line not being >> pulled up or the 7447 needs to be replaced. If there was a break in >> the ribbon table to the controller board then the bit would always be >> set and a different set of incorrect values would be displayed. >> >> Hopefully there isn't a fault on the controller board that is pulling >> the pin to ground. > > It's likely there's a driver chip on the controller board with an open > collector output (something like a 7438). That output could very well > be shorted to ground. That would in fact be my first suspect for this > error. > > Camiel. From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Mon Jul 23 18:11:53 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:11:53 -0400 Subject: N8 availability Message-ID: <003301cd6928$8cf5cde0$a6e169a0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Some of the N8VEM builders have gotten their N8's assembled and tested. They are working fairly well and the new SD circuitry seems to check out fine. There is a new MSX BIOS and CP/M ROM image posted and photos of one of the builds on the wiki. There is actually quite a bit of information and ongoing discussions on the N8VEM mailing list. Here is a sample photo one of about a dozen or so. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/file/55421880/NS-2312_working_with_Floppy_DSK Y.JPG http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=N8-2312%20Marti n%20Lukasek I still have some N8 PCBs so if anyone would like to build their own complete home brew computer from scratch please let me know. Please see the N8 description below for what it can do. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 18:52:17 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:52:17 -0400 Subject: GNT 4601 reader/punch documentation Message-ID: Thanks Mike, Al, and Bob for the GNT information. That should be plenty to get repairs going. -- Michael Thompson From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 23 18:58:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:58:14 -0400 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) In-Reply-To: <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> Message-ID: <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> On 07/23/2012 11:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Sure I am. I'm creating a simple and cheap internet card for an old > computer. If Wizchip works, why would I use Lantronix? [head explodes] "Internet card"?! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 19:17:54 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:17:54 -0500 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: <2AE23740-8F80-4719-8CA0-5077DE42783E@me.com> Message-ID: correction ratan had a 11/34 took up a room 12 x 16 feet From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Jul 23 19:28:05 2012 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:28:05 -0500 Subject: Ethernet solutions for the Jr (was Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs ... In-Reply-To: <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <500DEC15.90304@brutman.com> There are some interesting options there ... My interest is in a real Ethernet device. I already did the work to write a TCP/IP stack that runs well on old DOS machines ( http://www.brutman.com/mTCP ). Having an external device that does the TCP/IP work for me is nice for machines that are more limited, but a PCjr or PC clone doesn't need it. I haven't looked at the Ethernet chipset solutions recently but the last time I looked around I got hung up on the interfacing to an 8 bit PC bus. A lot of them seemed to require a 16 bit bus. In my ideal world I would have an Ethernet chipset that wires easily to an 8 bit PC bus. (I can make that work on a PCjr.) If 16 bit is required then it is not feasible for the jr without some circuit hackery. In that ideal world the packet driver already exists and works, assuming that you didn't wire the chip up in some strange way. Lastly, the chipset can use I/O ports and an IRQ. But DMA is a no-no. Which is fine because most Ethernet chipsets in that class don't use DMA anyway. Time to do some reading ... Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 20:17:16 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:17:16 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <42341F9DAF5045E8A87C0DE81DA0E86F@tababook> Oh, my head... :oO It hurts! It is..."them!" --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 8:58 PM Subject: Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) > On 07/23/2012 11:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Sure I am. I'm creating a simple and cheap internet card for an old >> computer. If Wizchip works, why would I use Lantronix? > > [head explodes] > > "Internet card"?! > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 20:18:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:18:59 -0300 Subject: Ethernet solutions for the Jr (was Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs ... References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> <500DEC15.90304@brutman.com> Message-ID: You can use an entire NE2000 board with RTE8029.Take a look at the "obsonet" project for MSX. Sources and schematics avaiable. You'll see that although it is a cart with the 8029, it is essentialy a RTL8029 NE2000 board. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 9:28 PM Subject: Ethernet solutions for the Jr (was Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs ... > > There are some interesting options there ... > > My interest is in a real Ethernet device. I already did the work to write > a TCP/IP stack that runs well on old DOS machines ( > http://www.brutman.com/mTCP ). Having an external device that does the > TCP/IP work for me is nice for machines that are more limited, but a PCjr > or PC clone doesn't need it. > > I haven't looked at the Ethernet chipset solutions recently but the last > time I looked around I got hung up on the interfacing to an 8 bit PC bus. > A lot of them seemed to require a 16 bit bus. > > In my ideal world I would have an Ethernet chipset that wires easily to an > 8 bit PC bus. (I can make that work on a PCjr.) If 16 bit is required > then it is not feasible for the jr without some circuit hackery. In that > ideal world the packet driver already exists and works, assuming that you > didn't wire the chip up in some strange way. > > Lastly, the chipset can use I/O ports and an IRQ. But DMA is a no-no. > Which is fine because most Ethernet chipsets in that class don't use DMA > anyway. > > Time to do some reading ... > > > Mike > > From chd at chdickman.com Mon Jul 23 21:11:13 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:11:13 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing Message-ID: Is a microcode listing for the DEC RX02 floppy controller available anywhere? -chuck From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 21:26:31 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:26:31 +1200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction to that.... it should read: The 7417 needs to pull this to ground to get the display segments to switch off. So what I am seeing is the line coming in to the front panel from the control board is pulled to ground and does not change. So it could be: 1. The pullup resistor on the front panel board has failed. 2. The 7417 on the controller board has failed and is pulling the line to ground. 3. Something feeding the 7417 on the controller board has failed. That said the next step is still to is to check resistor and then the input and output on the 7417 on the control board. On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: > Right. These lines are driven by a 7417's on the controller board. > DEC seemed to like non-inverting buffers. The resistors on the front > panel board hold the line high and the 7417 needs to pull this to > ground to get the display segments to light up. Checked with the > scope on the front panel board and the second bit of the incoming BCD > value isn't going low. Pulling the line to ground on the front panel > board causes the 7 segment displays to read correctly so the BCD to 7 > segment converter is OK. The cable to the controller board checks out > OK so the next step is to check the input and output on the 7417 gate > and see if the problem is there. Unfortunately I don't have extender > boards so will have to go with the old "solder wires to the chip" > trick. > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:11 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: >>> The insight came when I looked at which keys on the number pad worked >>> and which didn't. I came up with the following table >>> >>> Pressed = Displayed >>> 1 = 1 >>> 2 = 0 >>> 3 = 1 >>> 4 = 4 >>> 5 = 5 >>> 6 = 4 >>> 7 = 5 >>> 0 = 0 >>> >>> If you convert this to binary it becomes pretty obvious where the >>> problem lies. The invalid display is for the items marked with * and >>> all have the second bit set. If you mask out the second bit you get >>> the displayed value. >>> >>> 0 = 0000 >>> 1 = 0001 >>> 2 = 0010 * >>> 3 = 0011 * >>> 4 = 0100 >>> 5 = 0101 >>> 6 = 0110 * >>> 7 = 0111 * >>> >>> The front panel uses a 7447 BCD to 7 Segment decoder to drive the LED >>> modules. If pin 1 (B) on this is not being set when required then the >>> behaviour will be what I am seeing..... it isn't that the keypad is >>> getting it wrong... but the display is showing the wrong value due to >>> a missing bit. >>> >>> Need to do a bit more digging here but given that this line is pulled >>> to +5V via a resistor on the front panel board I am hoping that the >>> problem is either >>> a connection problem on the front panel board with the line not being >>> pulled up or the 7447 needs to be replaced. If there was a break in >>> the ribbon table to the controller board then the bit would always be >>> set and a different set of incorrect values would be displayed. >>> >>> Hopefully there isn't a fault on the controller board that is pulling >>> the pin to ground. >> >> It's likely there's a driver chip on the controller board with an open >> collector output (something like a 7438). That output could very well >> be shorted to ground. That would in fact be my first suspect for this >> error. >> >> Camiel. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 21:51:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 23:51:59 -0300 Subject: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> <20120723193313.I6740@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: It was a head fart...ETHERNET card :oP --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs (Re: XT-IDE V2 PCBs) >> On 07/23/2012 11:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> > Sure I am. I'm creating a simple and cheap internet card for an old >> > computer. If Wizchip works, why would I use Lantronix? > On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> [head explodes] >> "Internet card"?! > > I was too embarrassed to admit that I have noi idea what an "internet > card" IS > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 23 22:17:41 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GA SPC-16 (was: GNT tech docs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1343099861.13617.YahooMailClassic@web181504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/23/12, Christian Corti wrote: > From: Christian Corti > Subject: GA SPC-16 (was: GNT tech docs) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, July 23, 2012, 1:31 AM > On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, Bob Rosenbloom > wrote: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/GNT/ > > That reminds me that I still have a GA SPC-16 without any > bit of software and without technical manuals/schematics. Do > you happen to have these? I could need some scans/dumps > because our machine needs repair and a memory board > (missing). I've always wanted to ask but forgot... > > Christian > I have some docs for later model SPC-16 systems, and a box of paper tapes. I believe most of the tapes are for the SPC-12, but I think some wee for the 16. Problem is they are in storage at my ranch and I don't expect to get there any time soon. Bob From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 24 01:38:28 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 08:38:28 +0200 Subject: Ethernet solutions for the Jr (was Re: jr-IDE for PCjrs ... In-Reply-To: <500DEC15.90304@brutman.com> References: <201207231527.q6NFRa3k5636334@floodgap.com> <563DC28488704EBCBB5504A83F6DA48B@tababook> <500DE516.7040605@neurotica.com> <500DEC15.90304@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20120724083828.bfff4f98.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:28:05 -0500 "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > Having an external device that does the > TCP/IP work for me is nice for machines that are more limited, but a > PCjr or PC clone doesn't need it. > > I haven't looked at the Ethernet chipset solutions recently but the last > time I looked around I got hung up on the interfacing to an 8 bit PC > bus. A lot of them seemed to require a 16 bit bus. The WIZnet W5100 does TCP/IP in hardware. It can send / receive raw packets as well, if you wane do TCI/IP in software. It offers a variaty of bus options. (8-Bit MCU bus, SPI) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From microcode at zoho.com Tue Jul 24 05:38:34 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:38:34 +0000 Subject: Anybody have 1991 BYTE scans? Message-ID: <20120724103834.GA8976@zoho.com> Does anybody have scans of the 1991 BYTE magazine? I'd like to get copies if you have them. Thank you. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 24 05:42:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:42:22 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <500DB0C6.4060901@neurotica.com> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120723180452.GA48797@beast.freibergnet.de> <500DB0C6.4060901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120724104222.GB23117@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/23/2012 02:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > This monday the Tek has finally arrived. > > There was no real function, it seemed that only the flood system was > > working. Measured something here and there and found an non working OPV > > in the HV Circuit (?A709), > > Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a while! Hmm, repaired an Tek 7904 last week, for sure they are in there too. Since Tek used his own part numbers (156-0015-00), one only searches what that beast really is if it is broken.. I have many such things in my parts boxes. > > > replaced it but still not working. > > Finally decided to desolder the wires from the HV Transformer to heater > > from the wirting gun and measured no connection. O shit.! > > 8-< > > > Dismounted the fan on the back and looked inside towards the tubes socket, > > ...hmm crooked???? Pulled on the wires and the socked was loose. > > I've found some bent Pins on the tube strigthened them carefully and took > > the socket back in Place, switched on the Power and voila! The tube > > pictured the test spiral... > > Excellent!! > > > The Tube has some small burns, but really isn't that bad. I think I'll > > never see another Tek 6110 Storage Tube, so that thing must work as is. > > (or has someone another in stock and wants to sell it into a good home?) > > I have a "basket case" 611 here. It was raped for parts. Since I > recently got a copy of the documentation (thanks Richard!) I can now dig > into it and see what's missing. I hope to be able to repair it, but if > it's not repairable, I may not have much reason to keep it. (If it uses > the same CRT as my Tek 4012 terminal, which I think it might, then I'd > probably keep it for that reason.) Nebraska Surplus does list such a tube: (TUC) 154-0624-11 CRT Tek, GC1029,4012-599-220 $95 actually, but I think $95 and additional shipping costs overseas to the really, really bad conditions of your american shipping companies pretty much prevents me from buying that tube.., they also don't state that the tube is new, so nobody knows what I would get for my money :-| Tek used different versions depending on the serial no. in the service manual. Maybe the same tube is in your 4012.. I think it will fit anyways, good for your 4012, bad for me ... The SM for the 611 lists the following Versions: 154-0518-00 until SN B129999 154-0624-00 between B130000 and B199999 154-0624-11 between B200000 and B227329 154-0624-12 B227330, B226520 ?? I know an -01 also exists. Maybe the -12 has a different phosphor, whow knows... > > > I think tests with the PDP11 and D/A converters have to wait until winter, > > thats getting too much warmt in here... > > You'll have to take a lot of pics of that! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Yea, I know. :-) Does someone have some Vector Maps to display? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 05:53:01 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 03:53:01 -0700 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 23, 2012 11:29 PM, "Kevin Reynolds" wrote: > > I have tried and failed to get a successful connection between my uvax II and a pc rs-232 serial port. The H8751-B didn't seem to work, so I pulled it off and wired my own MMJ-DB9 connector. I have tested the MMJ cable, and it works flawlessly. > If you have double checked a couple different cable options already, have you double checked that the bulkhead panel for the KA630 is working correctly? Is it possible that the battery leaked and corroded the PCB traces on the bulkhead panel? I've used both a homemade KA630 DB9 - PC DB9 cable and also an H8571-B MMJ cable without any issues. It shouldn't be difficult if the KA630 panel is working correctly and cabled to the KA630 correctly. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jul 24 05:53:34 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:53:34 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B Message-ID: <01OI86FZ0Z3M000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> > >I have tried and failed to get a successful connection between my uvax II and > a pc rs-232 serial port. The H8751-B didn't seem to work, so I pulled it of >f and wired my own MMJ-DB9 connector. I have tested the MMJ cable, and it >works flawlessly. > >[snip] > I didn't really follow your description of what you have tried. I suspect the DE9 connector you have is not wired for plugging into a pc serial port but is intended for a DE9 connector on some DEC equipment which is wired differently (a VAX 2000 for example). My suggestion for an MMJ to other serial device connection is as follows: Cut an MMJ to MMJ cable in two. Take one end and strip off a bit of the outer insulation. Strip back the two centre conductors and join them together and to signal ground on the pc side. Strip back the next two outer conductors and connect one to TX on the pc and the other to RX on the pc. Ignore the two outer conductors. Plug in and test. If it doesn't work, swap the conductors going to TX and RX and try again. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 24 06:44:16 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:44:16 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120723180452.GA48797@beast.freibergnet.de> <500DB0C6.4060901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120724114416.GC23117@beast.freibergnet.de> Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a TEK611 I'll probably be willing to part with when I dig it > out in a few months. > > Paul, or Bruce, or whatever..... ...should I kick you for the tube again in some time? Kind Regards, Holm > > > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 07/23/2012 02:04 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> This monday the Tek has finally arrived. > >> There was no real function, it seemed that only the flood system was > >> working. Measured something here and there and found an non working OPV > >> in the HV Circuit (???709), > > > > Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a while! > > > >> replaced it but still not working. > >> Finally decided to desolder the wires from the HV Transformer to heater > >> from the wirting gun and measured no connection. O shit.! > > > > 8-< > > > >> Dismounted the fan on the back and looked inside towards the tubes socket, > >> ...hmm crooked???? Pulled on the wires and the socked was loose. > >> I've found some bent Pins on the tube strigthened them carefully and took > >> the socket back in Place, switched on the Power and voila! The tube > >> pictured the test spiral... > > > > Excellent!! > > > >> The Tube has some small burns, but really isn't that bad. I think I'll > >> never see another Tek 6110 Storage Tube, so that thing must work as is. > >> (or has someone another in stock and wants to sell it into a good home?) > > > > I have a "basket case" 611 here. It was raped for parts. Since I > > recently got a copy of the documentation (thanks Richard!) I can now dig > > into it and see what's missing. I hope to be able to repair it, but if > > it's not repairable, I may not have much reason to keep it. (If it uses > > the same CRT as my Tek 4012 terminal, which I think it might, then I'd > > probably keep it for that reason.) > > > >> I think tests with the PDP11 and D/A converters have to wait until winter, > >> thats getting too much warmt in here... > > > > You'll have to take a lot of pics of that! > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > > New Kensington, PA -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 07:19:50 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:19:50 +0200 Subject: Unibus termination Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm looking for a decent primer on Unibus termination. I'm a little confused about M9300, M9301, M9302 and M9312. Which is to be used where? Camiel. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 24 14:08:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20120724120210.D27912@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Its cool, but would be far better if the mech was available with it.... > never heard of 4 1/2 media before. I have tons of the Amdek 3 1/4 disks > for its amdisk drives, those a neat, like the hard plastic shells on > them. THOSE are called "THREE INCH". In addition to being used in Amstrad computers, Amdek peddled external drive units for Apple][! and for Coco. They are nice. Many of us prefer them over the 3.5" The ones that are called "3 1/4" were floppy cased disk from Dysan. Despite betting the company on it, and spending a lot, Dysan failed to get them to become the standard - Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine to make it to market with those drives. I wonder how many of them they actually sold? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 24 14:28:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20120724122513.P27912@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, jim s wrote: > Wonder if anyone is interested in this? > 4 1/2 inch floppy prototype supposedly from IBM > htttp://www.ebay.com/itm/251110295055 > really pricy, but if you are into weird media this might not be > something to miss. WHERE do you get "4 1/2 inch" from? The eBay listing calls it 4", and it it's what I remember with Tabor drive and Brown Disk media, I remember it being called "3.9 inch" That particular sample is explicitly labelled "NON-FUNCTIONAL", which makes it very over-priced, unless the drive comes with it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 24 14:38:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120724123656.Q27912@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > wow and there's only one! Thanks for telling me!! Gotta have that! Except that as soon as it sold, he "relisted" to sell another of them. Once you get it, then you can start the process of trying to find one of the DRIVES! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 24 13:59:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:59:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <051068D4-6D3F-4CD7-9762-B32588CCF42D@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Jul 23, 12 04:22:31 pm Message-ID: > > You're right, it is an emitter follower with a full-wave rectifier. > The ripple is quite bad, I figure it at 3.5%. I'll have to hunt down an > appropriate capacitor. Is that ripple on the input or output? If on the output, you need to do some reapirs. If o nthe input, it migth be OK. Provided the input votlage to the regualtor circuit doesn't drop too low, the output will be stable. What is 'too low? Well, the zenner still ahs to pass enough current to regulates, the emitter follower needs enough votlage o nthe3 collector for the emiter to be able to remain at 5V. But I would hav eguessed that if the input always stays about, say, 7V, you won't have problems. > > Sent from my iPad Why does anyone need ot know this? -tony (Sent from a classic IBM 5170) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 24 14:36:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:36:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Jul 23, 12 10:11:13 pm Message-ID: > > Is a microcode listing for the DEC RX02 floppy controller available > anywhere? I'e neve seen an official version of it..... YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 24 14:49:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:49:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unibus termination In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jul 24, 12 02:19:50 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Everyone, > > I'm looking for a decent primer on Unibus termination. I'm a little > confused about M9300, M9301, M9302 and M9312. Which is to be used There are actually more terminaorts than that ;-). I seem to recall seeing a combined terminator and Unbius jumper, I think that goes in an 11/40 Anyway... Unibus is done properly. What I mman by that is that both ends of the bus are terminated. So there should alway be 2 terminators, no more and no less, in the system. The original scheme was to use M930 cards. These are dual-height boards of short length Originally they used discrete resistors, later on, they used DIL resisotr packs. But they're much the same thing. In an 11/45, for example, one goes at hte front of the CPU backplane, another goes in the Unibus Out slot of the last backplane/device on the Unibus. FWIW, this terminator is also used on the RK05 The M9301 and M9312 are bootstrap/terminator boards. As well as containign the termination resisotrs, they also ahve boot ROMs on them. One of these goes at the CPU end of the bus in soemthing like an 11/34 The M9302 goes at the 'far end' fo the bus in such a machine. Again it carries the termination resisotrs, but alos a little logic to assert SACK f ia grant signal gets to it. I forget the reaosn for this, but it is the reason why machines with such a termintor will give bus errors if the grant chain is open. One trick i didn't metnion (and which the guy with the 11/04 might try) si to replace the M9302 with aan M930 ans ee if the bus error goes away. If it does, then you have a grant problem (not necessarily an open connection on the backplane). Actually, for small systems, just thje CPU backplane or the CPU and 1 device backplane, you cna often get away with not fitting that terminator, at least for testing. So if you have this bus error probklem, just pul lthe M9302 and see what happens. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 24 13:12:51 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:12:51 -0400 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com> Its cool, but would be far better if the mech was available with it.... never heard of 4 1/2 media before. I have tons of the Amdek 3 1/4 disks for its amdisk drives, those a neat, like the hard plastic shells on them. I used to have, I'm gonna say Toshiba??? 2" or 2 1/2" disks for a while, but someone had a working portable, so we made a trade, but those were really interesting. Chris Tofu wrote: > wow and there's only one! Thanks for telling me!! Gotta have that! > > > > ________________________________ > From: jim s > > > Wonder if anyone is interested in this? > > 4 1/2 inch floppy prototype supposedly from IBM > > htttp://www.ebay.com/itm/251110295055 > > really pricy, but if you are into weird media this might not be something to miss. > > Jim > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 24 13:32:22 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:32:22 +0200 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:20:08 -0600 Kevin Reynolds wrote: > I have tried and failed to get a successful connection between my > uvax II and a pc rs-232 serial port. The H8751-B didn't seem to work, > so I pulled it off and wired my own MMJ-DB9 connector. The MVII "bulkhead" uses a non-PeeCee DE9 RS232 pinout. So your MMJ-DE9 adapters can't work. Just solder a DE9-to-DE9 cable as described on "chucks house of vax". -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 13:47:36 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:47:36 +0200 Subject: Ready to Power up the 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: > Correction to that.... it should read: > > The 7417 needs to pull this to ground to get the display segments to switch off. > > So what I am seeing is the line coming in to the front panel from the > control board is pulled to ground and does not change. > > So it could be: > 1. The pullup resistor on the front panel board has failed. > 2. The 7417 on the controller board has failed and is pulling the > line to ground. > 3. Something feeding the 7417 on the controller board has failed. Number 2 is a very common mode of failure for open-collector 7400's like the 7417. My money's still on that one. Time to desolder it and put in a new one. Camiel. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 24 13:51:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:51:55 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com>, <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <500E8C5B.20100.AFC12A@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2012 at 14:12, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Its cool, but would be far better if the mech was available with > it.... never heard of 4 1/2 media before. I have tons of the Amdek 3 > 1/4 disks for its amdisk drives, those a neat, like the hard plastic > shells on them. I used to have, I'm gonna say Toshiba??? 2" or 2 > 1/2" disks for a while, but someone had a working portable, so we made > a trade, but those were really interesting. IBM DemiDisk? Never saw production. I believe that the mech itself was made by Tabor. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 13:57:39 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:57:39 -0700 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2012 11:36 AM, "Jochen Kunz" wrote: > > The MVII "bulkhead" uses a non-PeeCee DE9 RS232 pinout. So your MMJ-DE9 > adapters can't work. Just solder a DE9-to-DE9 cable as described on > "chucks house of vax". > -- MMJ adapters work fine with the KA630/650/655 bulkhead panel DB9 connector if you use the MMJ adapter that is specific for that purpose. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/vmsfaq_025.html 14.27 What connectors and wiring adapters are available? H8575-B - Older MicroVAX (other than the MicroVAX 2000) DB9 EIA232 serial port. Functionally similar to the H8571-B, though the H8575-B has better ESD shielding. Note: Cannot be used on a PC, Alpha nor Integrity DB9 9-pin connector. From james at machineroom.info Tue Jul 24 14:37:47 2012 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:37:47 +0100 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <20120724120210.D27912@shell.lmi.net> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com> <1343153210.59493.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com> <20120724120210.D27912@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <500EF98B.1080709@machineroom.info> On 24/07/2012 20:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Its cool, but would be far better if the mech was available with it.... >> never heard of 4 1/2 media before. I have tons of the Amdek 3 1/4 disks >> for its amdisk drives, those a neat, like the hard plastic shells on >> them. > THOSE are called "THREE INCH". In addition to being used in Amstrad > computers, Amdek peddled external drive units for Apple][! and for Coco. > They are nice. Many of us prefer them over the 3.5" > > The ones that are called "3 1/4" were floppy cased disk from Dysan. > Despite betting the company on it, and spending a lot, Dysan failed to get > them to become the standard - Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine to > make it to market with those drives. I wonder how many of them they > actually sold? > 3" also used in the Tatung Einstein which came with 1 internal drive as standard but there was space to take another internal drive and expansion port for an external drive too! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 24 15:01:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:01:39 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <20120724120210.D27912@shell.lmi.net> References: <500E2C47.8050106@jwsss.com>, <500EE5A3.9020400@atarimuseum.com>, <20120724120210.D27912@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <500E9CB3.5971.EF98DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2012 at 12:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > The ones that are called "3 1/4" were floppy cased disk from Dysan. > Despite betting the company on it, and spending a lot, Dysan failed to > get them to become the standard - Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only > machine to make it to market with those drives. I wonder how many of > them they actually sold? I wonder how many of the 325's were converted to use 3.5" drives? It wouldn't be a difficult mod--the drives are the same physical size and have the same pinout. --Chuck From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 15:06:08 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:06:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets Message-ID: <500F0030.7080201@gmail.com> > On 7/23/12 1:12 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article<500BAEE9.2090102 at gmail.com>, >> Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: >> >>> The Tech manual on bitsavers ( >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-TM-001_VK100_Technica >> l_Manual_Apr82.pdf >>> ) is missing a lot of information I need, and is also rife with errors! >> It would be good to have an errata to the technical manual. Can you >> email up a list of the errors you've spotted so far? > that would be a good thing > > GIGI documentation is very hard to find. I'm working on a list of errata (which are currently just pencil notes on a printout of the tech manual), I'll post it when I'm done. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 24 22:49:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <500F45AD.2000502@gmail.com> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> <500F45AD.2000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120724204856.C39960@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote: > I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No way they just made 4. > Those parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99 > plus shipping soon. Will they have USB ports? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 23:08:31 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 00:08:31 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <20120724204856.C39960@shell.lmi.net> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> <500F45AD.2000502@gmail.com> <20120724204856.C39960@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No way they just made 4. >> Those parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99 >> plus shipping soon. > > Will they have USB ports? A rosewood enclosure? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 24 23:14:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags In-Reply-To: <6755C246-05DB-4F37-9FC9-2895E6184EFB@me.com> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> <"CANij+dfKZHTvOuWorLD2918 6ftbrejBENp0675TSidTa+CLLvA"@mail.gmail.com> <500F58C9.5020704@gorge.net> <6E58CFF2DFC7429F8DFBB13256B2812C@tababook> <500F63BD.10903@gorge.net> <16617152-2F93-453C-B2A4-C35491C84D58@me.com> <500F6B47.7060800@gorge.net> <6755C246-05DB-4F37-9FC9-2895E6184EFB@me.com> Message-ID: <20120724211322.S42192@shell.lmi.net> > >> Wait wait. You run into a random, unidentified fluid in an unexpected > >> place... and your instinct is to taste it? Is there an easier way to decide whether it is safe to use in the radiator of your car? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 24 16:07:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:07:22 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> On 07/24/2012 03:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Is a microcode listing for the DEC RX02 floppy controller available >> anywhere? > > I'e neve seen an official version of it..... > > YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and > disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing > to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can > stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl > machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you. Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? My old company in Maryland hired the guy who designed that board. I didn't see much of him, unfortunately...it seems he didn't really make the transition from big-company (DEC) to small-company (SkyCache ~30 employees) very well. I should see if I can find him. His name was Paul Kotchenruther. (sp?) Nice guy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Tue Jul 24 16:16:01 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:16:01 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <277B47C2-F287-45FD-8897-F44217EDD4BF@me.com> The ripple is on the output. I figure the filter cap is causing the problem. As for the "sent from my iPad" bit, that's just a signature the iPad adds as a default. I've been too lazy so far to change it. I've updated it with my name and callsign. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-07-24, at 2:59 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> You're right, it is an emitter follower with a full-wave rectifier. >> The ripple is quite bad, I figure it at 3.5%. I'll have to hunt down an >> appropriate capacitor. > > Is that ripple on the input or output? If on the output, you need to do > some reapirs. If o nthe input, it migth be OK. Provided the input votlage > to the regualtor circuit doesn't drop too low, the output will be stable. > What is 'too low? Well, the zenner still ahs to pass enough current to > regulates, the emitter follower needs enough votlage o nthe3 collector > for the emiter to be able to remain at 5V. But I would hav eguessed that > if the input always stays about, say, 7V, you won't have problems. > >> >> Sent from my iPad > > Why does anyone need ot know this? > > -tony > > (Sent from a classic IBM 5170) From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Jul 24 16:27:43 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:27:43 -0600 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: , <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Message-ID: Jochen, I actually have the H8571-B. I traced it out with a meter and found 5 connections, so there should be some combo that works with the DB9-MMJ going to RS-232 on the other end, right? I could see there being an issue with the MMJ-DB9 if there were more than 6 wires involved that I would need the DE9, but since the B8571-B has MMJ coming out the other side, there has to be a solution. I would use the H8571-B on the vax bulkhead side, not the pc side. The pc side would have the DB9-MMJ. Kevin > Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:57:39 -0700 > Subject: Re: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Jul 24, 2012 11:36 AM, "Jochen Kunz" wrote: > > > > The MVII "bulkhead" uses a non-PeeCee DE9 RS232 pinout. So your MMJ-DE9 > > adapters can't work. Just solder a DE9-to-DE9 cable as described on > > "chucks house of vax". > > -- > > MMJ adapters work fine with the KA630/650/655 bulkhead panel DB9 connector > if you use the MMJ adapter that is specific for that purpose. > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/vmsfaq_025.html > > 14.27 What connectors and wiring adapters are available? > > H8575-B - Older MicroVAX (other than the MicroVAX 2000) DB9 EIA232 serial > port. Functionally similar to the H8571-B, though the H8575-B has better > ESD shielding. Note: Cannot be used on a PC, Alpha nor Integrity DB9 9-pin > connector. From chd at chdickman.com Tue Jul 24 18:28:31 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:28:31 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? > Yes. There is a flowchart in the RX02 technical manual, but no listing. The RX01 TM does have a listing. I have no RX02 from which I can get a ROM dump. -chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Jul 24 19:30:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:30:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > Hey guys and gals, > > I have tried and failed to get a successful connection between my uvax > II and a pc rs-232 serial port. The H8751-B didn't seem to work, so I > pulled it off and wired my own MMJ-DB9 connector. I have tested the MMJ > cable, and it works flawlessly. > > For my connectors I have followed "The Cable" documentation at > http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm (chucks house of > vax), under "The MicroVAX II" section but it hasn't helped. I have > tested the MMJ-DB9 connection from my uvax III consoles and from the > microvax 3100 and it works fine, so I think the PC side is working > correctly. The pinout for the cable at Chuck's House of VAX is correct. I just opened up the connector shells on my own cable which I assembled more than 10 years ago and verified that it matches the information given there. Your other option would be to use a H8571-B on the VAX side connected with an MMJ cable to a H8571-J (or equiv.) on the PC side. While the two adapters are both DE-9, the pinouts for each are very different. I've used both solutions for my own systems, and I used to make and sell H8571-J "work alike" adapter cables on eBay (DE-9F adapter with crimpped pins to 6P6C jack, wired the same as a H8571-H, along with a 6P6C to MMJ modular cable; I sold 100s of those things). If you'd rather not butcher an MMJ cable, I'd suggest finding an H8571-J adapter (useful with an MMJ cable for many other purposes as well). If someone else can't supply you with a second hand H8571-J, I do still have some NOS inventory (still in the original DEC bags) stored away (but not /too/ difficult to get to) but I paid a good bit for them so I can't just give those away. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Jul 24 19:50:06 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:50:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > I've used both solutions for my own systems, and I used to make and sell > H8571-J "work alike" adapter cables on eBay (DE-9F adapter with crimpped pins > to 6P6C jack, wired the same as a H8571-H, along with a 6P6C to MMJ modular > cable; I sold 100s of those things). ...wired the same as a H8571-J... From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 24 20:04:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:04:36 -0400 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B Message-ID: <5f7xlax7q7tm8nmewya97ykg.1343178276630@email.android.com> Tothwolf wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jul 2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > >> Hey guys and gals, >> >> I have tried and failed to get a successful connection between my uvax >> II and a pc rs-232 serial port. The H8751-B didn't seem to work, so I >> pulled it off and wired my own MMJ-DB9 connector. I have tested the MMJ >> cable, and it works flawlessly. >> >> For my connectors I have followed "The Cable" documentation at >> http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm (chucks house of >> vax), under "The MicroVAX II" section but it hasn't helped. I have >> tested the MMJ-DB9 connection from my uvax III consoles and from the >> microvax 3100 and it works fine, so I think the PC side is working >> correctly. > >The pinout for the cable at Chuck's House of VAX is correct. I just opened >up the connector shells on my own cable which I assembled more than 10 >years ago and verified that it matches the information given there. > >Your other option would be to use a H8571-B on the VAX side connected with >an MMJ cable to a H8571-J (or equiv.) on the PC side. While the two >adapters are both DE-9, the pinouts for each are very different. > >I've used both solutions for my own systems, and I used to make and sell >H8571-J "work alike" adapter cables on eBay (DE-9F adapter with crimpped >pins to 6P6C jack, wired the same as a H8571-H, along with a 6P6C to MMJ >modular cable; I sold 100s of those things). > >If you'd rather not butcher an MMJ cable, I'd suggest finding an H8571-J >adapter (useful with an MMJ cable for many other purposes as well). If >someone else can't supply you with a second hand H8571-J, I do still have >some NOS inventory (still in the original DEC bags) stored away (but not >/too/ difficult to get to) but I paid a good bit for them so I can't just >give those away. From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 00:58:38 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 01:58:38 -0400 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets Message-ID: <500F8B0E.8000602@gmail.com> > On 7/23/12 1:12 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article<500BAEE9.2090102 at gmail.com>, >> Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: >> >>> The Tech manual on bitsavers ( >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-TM-001_VK100_Technica >> l_Manual_Apr82.pdf >>> ) is missing a lot of information I need, and is also rife with errors! >> It would be good to have an errata to the technical manual. Can you >> email up a list of the errors you've spotted so far? > that would be a good thing > > GIGI documentation is very hard to find. Ok here's a quick rundown of the errata so far (there's probably a lot more I haven't noticed), some stuff might need to be done as images/drawings due to errors in some figures: page 4-19 subheading 4.4.4.1: Omission: PEEK(address) is perfectly valid code and isn't in the list of valid basic operators. (Tested on emulation and 10 print peek(0256) then run does print 194 (0xC2 appears at offset 0x100 in address space).) page 5-3 figure 5-2: Error/Omission: the "DIP SELECTION" box next to "SYSTAT A" should have a second arrow pointing to it from the address bus (since DIP selection is based on the low 3 bits of the address (offsets 0x40-0x47)) page 5-10: Error: the rom 3 extends from 6000-67ff, not 6000-63ff as listed. The chip contains 6000-6fff but the area between 6800 and 6fff is blank, 0x00s. page 5-14: Table 5-3 I/O Register Addresses: Error: the write register decode for address 0x47 does not have the read bit set to 1 (this is an obvious typo) Error: The KYBDW write register is listed as if it is at offset 0x78; it is actually at offset 0x68. Error/Omission: the read register for SYSTAT A is listed as 0x40; it is actually mirrored to 0x40-0x47 but the dipswitch bit read to d2 for each of those addresses is different. (the switches read for each of the addresses from 0x40 to 0x47 in d2 is, base-0, so switch 1 is 0, 2 is 1, etc: 1,3,5,7,6,4,2,0 ) page 5-15: Table 5-4 Program RAM addresses: Omission: the c000-ffff ram area is not populated on the vk100 board, though ram is refreshed as if it was there. (it may have been intended as an expansion kit by DEC but was never sold as far as I'm aware) Error: Table 5-5 I/O ROM Microcode Address: the address for the row read/column drive mapping of the keyboard ranges from 7000-700F, not 700. (actually it mirrors to the whole 7000-7fff area every 16 bytes, and the firmware reads it at 7ff0-7fff) page 5-27: Figure 5-17: the "translator input" left side of this figure has some major row/column offset/duplication issues. The correct contents should be: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 (000) TA200 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (001) TA200 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 (002) TA200 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 (003) TA200 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 --------------------------- (004) TA201 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 (005) TA201 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 (006) TA201 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 (007) TA201 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 --------------------------- (010) TA202 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 (011) TA202 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 (012) TA202 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 (013) TA202 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 --------------------------- (014) TA203 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 (015) TA203 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 (016) TA203 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 (017) TA203 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 --------------------------- The right table in the figure is correct. Page 5-29, Table 5-7: Error: The equation for "Overlay" should be M=AT(P+N) instead of M=A+(P+N) Page 5-30, Figure 5-19: Error: The labels on the two lines coming from the "SOPS" block are transposed; The top one should be "WHAT COLOR IS THE SCREEN" and the bottom one regarding the bit 0 reverse video bit. Omission: the line which SHOULD be "what color is the screen" (the one going to input B on the MUX) should have a note on the line noting that it is 4 bits wide, not one bit as is implied by the figure. The "What color is the data" line should have such a marking as well. Page 5-32 Figure 5-21: Error: the clock source for the down counter is NOT the "CHAR CLK" as listed, but the "DOT CLK". (This had me confused for a good 15 minutes before I spotted the error) Page 5-35: Omission/Ambiguity: The description of the "Screen Options (SOPS)" register is missing the bit numbers for each part of the described functions, and there are FOUR functions, not three. This could be better written as: 1. Blink Control/Mask (bit 3) 2. Background Color + Blink (bits 7,6,5,4) 3. I/O port control (EIA, 20 mA, hardcopy and self-test) (bits 2,1) 4. Normal/Reverse Video (bit 0) Page 5-38, Figure 5-23 Arbitrary Waveform Timing: Error: The Vector rom addresses listed at the top have address 23 missing and 33 duplicated twice; the correct pattern from left to right should be: 34 23 22 21 20 25 24 33 32 31 30 35 34 23 22 21 20 25 24 33 32 31 30 35 Page 5-42, Figure 5-26: Error/Ambiguity: the lines from "SOPS" to "I/O PORT SELECTOR" are labeled SL1 and SL0; the actual bits in the SOPS register these represent are bits d2 and d1. Page 5-53, Figure 5-33 and Table 5-10: the same ambiguity with SOPS bit labels SL1 and SL0 appears here. Nowhere in the tech reference does it mention they are bits d2 and d1. Page 5-57 Figure 5-37: Omission: the line from "ADDRESS LATCH" to "DECODER" (which is labeled A6-A0) is missing its (7016) marking; on figure 5-36 on the previous page (page 5-56) the marking is present. Page 5-62: Omission/Ambiguity: the description of SYSTAT A does not note anywhere in the tech reference that the bits read appear in SYSTAT A bits 6,5,4,3 for bits 3,2,1,0 of the nybble the current X and Y registers point to in VRAM. One possible error (I need to test this more), which appears on two successive pages: Page 5-66 Figure 5-42: *POSSIBLE* (Needs verify with keyboard and meter) the pins for SHIFT and CAPS LOCK are reversed; capslock should be pin 35 and shift pin 33 Page 5-67 Figure 5-43: *POSSIBLE* the KBD-R latch implies that capslock is D6 and shift is D7, when in reality they are the other way round. Hope that helps, If I run into more I'll send to the list as well. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 25 01:39:43 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:39:43 +0200 Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120725083943.588bcf94.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:57:39 -0700 Glen Slick wrote: > MMJ adapters work fine with the KA630/650/655 bulkhead panel DB9 connector > if you use the MMJ adapter that is specific for that purpose. OK. Then it should work - in theory. (I googled H8751-B and didn't find any substantial information like a pinout.) But obviously it doesn't work in practice. So - at least for me - thats the point where I heat my soldering iron and solder a cable where I _know_ that it has the correct wiring. Getting out a meter and mesuring the actual wiring of the MMJ setup is a good idea also. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Jul 25 02:25:27 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 02:25:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Serial Connection for UVax II with H8571-B In-Reply-To: References: , <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > I actually have the H8571-B. I traced it out with a meter and found 5 > connections, so there should be some combo that works with the DB9-MMJ > going to RS-232 on the other end, right? > > I could see there being an issue with the MMJ-DB9 if there were more > than 6 wires involved that I would need the DE9, but since the B8571-B > has MMJ coming out the other side, there has to be a solution. > I would use the H8571-B on the vax bulkhead side, not the pc side. > The pc side would have the DB9-MMJ. ^^^^^^^ You mean the H8571-J on the PC side. The H8571-B would indeed be correct on the VAX side. I suppose I need to take photos since the two adapters do actually look quite different from each other... From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 25 02:51:04 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 01:51:04 -0600 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets In-Reply-To: <500DC0C2.6050301@bitsavers.org> References: <500BAEE9.2090102@gmail.com> <500DC0C2.6050301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <500DC0C2.6050301 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 7/23/12 1:12 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article<500BAEE9.2090102 at gmail.com>, > > Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > > > >> The Tech manual on bitsavers ( > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-TM-001_VK100_Techn ica > > l_Manual_Apr82.pdf > >> ) is missing a lot of information I need, and is also rife with errors! > > > > It would be good to have an errata to the technical manual. Can you > > email up a list of the errors you've spotted so far? > > that would be a good thing > > GIGI documentation is very hard to find. I haven't created a GIGI page on the terminals wiki yet, but it was on my todo list... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 24 19:40:44 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:40:44 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues Message-ID: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 down to cloning the Christies box gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 19:52:33 2012 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:52:33 +1000 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <500f4353.23bd440a.74ed.0c7e@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 10:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 > down to cloning the Christies box > gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from He does point out multiple times it's a replica - no-one could be confused that it's an original. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 20:11:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:11:30 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be from the > mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. Can any of you > get a good date code from what you see there? It is a replica. No shenanigans. -- Will From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 20:14:59 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:14:59 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <500F4893.6070407@gmail.com> On 7/24/2012 5:54 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be > from the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. > Can any of you get a good date code from what you see there? > I dont think they are claiming it as anything but, a replica. Still they didn't even try very hard. Not $2500 hard anyway. Most of the IC's look to be late from the 80's and many don't match what you would see on an Apple I. That's about $100-$150 worth of replica there and expect a lot more of them soon. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 24 20:19:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:19:34 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <500EE736.11619.212A96D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2012 at 17:54, David Griffith wrote: > The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be > from the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. > Can any of you get a good date code from what you see there? The date codes are all over the place, from what I can see, 78 to 84 at least. But being in China, I'm sure he can find a place that will give him any date code he wants. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Jul 24 22:44:04 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 22:44:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 >> >> down to cloning the Christies box >> >> gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from > > The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be from the > mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. Can any of you > get a good date code from what you see there? There looks to be a date of 2012 etched into the solder side of the board... From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Jul 24 22:55:17 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 22:55:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <500F45AD.2000502@gmail.com> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> <500F45AD.2000502@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 7/24/2012 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 >> >> down to cloning the Christies box >> >> gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from > > I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No way they just made 4. Those > parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99 plus > shipping soon. It isn't hard to see where he bought the parts... 2504 shift registers: http://www.ebay.com/itm/390121272376 http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&_trksid=p4340.l2564&rt=nc&item=390121272376 l***i (29) Accepted 140 May-24-12 20:50:48 PDT l***i (29) Accepted 70 Feb-09-12 10:14:47 PST 14.31818MHz crystals: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120905838701 http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&rt=nc&item=120905838701 l***i (29) US $5.00 May-07-12 11:05:44 PDT 1N914 diodes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/180785976164 http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&_trksid=p4340.l2564&rt=nc&item=180785976164 l***i (29) Accepted 3 May-15-12 09:17:18 PDT 0.1uF 50V ceramic capacitors: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190654524066 http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&_trksid=p4340.l2564&rt=nc&item=190654524066 l***i (29) US $7.50 7 May-05-12 03:27:55 PDT .... No doubt about it, he is gearing up for production. Too bad he didn't use the right solder. "No-Clean" lead-free solder didn't exist back then. From tom94022 at comcast.net Wed Jul 25 01:18:14 2012 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 23:18:14 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BD0FE473D004E2A8FA9365B354E45A6@U260> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251110295055 looks to me like a prototype cartridge for the IBM 0341 Four-Inch Diskette Drive (aka 3.9-inch) which was announced by IBM in 1983 but shortly thereafter withdrawn in favor of the MIC (Microfloppy Industry Consortium) adaptation of the Sony 3.5-inch design. I don't think any production units ever shipped but evaluation units may have shipped. FWIW, it was a single sided 358 kilobyte FM zone recorded device. The media spec is at bitsavers and promotional material is at the CHM. I have a drive photo in my files Tom From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 11:40:28 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <500FB32C.11293.26578D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org>, , <50101111.5010000@bitsavers.org> <500FB32C.11293.26578D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120725093745.K58237@shell.lmi.net> > > There are SO many wrong things about this copy. Machine-tooled > > sockets, modern monolythic ceramic caps. I'm surprised he bothered > > with carbon comp resistors. On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Weren't Augat machine-pin sockets available back then? I remember > using them around 1977 or so. Expensive buggers then. They were available. And expensive. I used to have a "Eur-apple][" in which all the sockets had been replaced with Augat! And LOTS of jumper wires all over the place in a previous owner's futile attempts to convert it to a USA Apple][. But, Apple always used single-wipe POS sockets. The worst ones available. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 12:16:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags In-Reply-To: <500FDFA1.5040001@update.uu.se> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> <500FDFA1.5040001@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20120725101608.H58237@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Pontus wrote: > You are missing the point though. This is a _replica_, and by the looks > of it, a very good one. I suppose the apple 1 was shipped in pink plastic? > (I don't know though, but I would bet on it) Seems logical, considering how many corners were cut (such as the bad sockets) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 25 10:33:47 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:33:47 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <0BD0FE473D004E2A8FA9365B354E45A6@U260> References: <0BD0FE473D004E2A8FA9365B354E45A6@U260> Message-ID: <501011DB.3000608@bitsavers.org> On 7/24/12 11:18 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251110295055 looks to me like a prototype cartridge > for the IBM 0341 Four-Inch Diskette Drive (aka 3.9-inch) which was announced > by IBM in 1983 but shortly thereafter withdrawn in favor of the MIC > (Microfloppy Industry Consortium) adaptation of the Sony 3.5-inch design. > I don't think any production units ever shipped but evaluation units may > have shipped. FWIW, it was a single sided 358 kilobyte FM zone recorded > device. > > The media spec is at bitsavers and promotional material is at the CHM. I > have a drive photo in my files > > Tom > > > CHM has several media examples, and at least one drive that came from one I bought off eBay a while ago http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=demidisk&type=all&t=objects http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/floppy/DemiDiskette/IBM_DemiDiskette_Drive_and_Media.pdf is a photo of the one I donated. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 25 10:39:53 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zenith Minisports revelations Message-ID: <1343230793.95514.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> someone kindly sent me a picture of the power supplies diagram/sticker. the connector has 9vdc output, 6vdc charge, a grounded shield, and a 5 v signal. what is the "5 v signal"? It's not labeled as an output, nor ac or dc. Is it a pin by which the p/s reads the voltage of the battery, so as to know when to stop charging? The specs state "Output 9V, 2 A max at supply, 6V, 1 A max at charging". ?Anyone have a spare that's surplus to their needs? From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jul 25 10:54:34 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:54:34 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <501011DB.3000608@bitsavers.org> References: <0BD0FE473D004E2A8FA9365B354E45A6@U260> <501011DB.3000608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <501016BA.9090608@jwsss.com> On 7/25/2012 8:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > is a photo of the one I donated. http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115923599 I should have known the other photo was lifted from bitsavers. I had guessed IBM provided the photo. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/floppy/DemiDiskette/IBM_DemiDiskette_Drive_and_Media.jpg But the reference in his text is even lifted from the bitsavers name. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 25 11:05:05 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:05:05 +0200 Subject: DR11-W and DRV11-WA ... related? Message-ID: <20120725160505.GB46611@beast.freibergnet.de> As you already know I got this Tek 611 Thing working lately and now I think about connecting that Beast to one of the PDP11 systems I have. They all are QBUS 11's, (12,53,83). Joachim gave me the hint to use a DRV11 or an DRV11-WA to connect the needed D/A Converters to supply the Tek611. I do have both DRV11 Variants. Now I'm looked in the 2.11BSDs sources and found a driver for DR11 boards, which looks like a similar parallel interface for the UNIbus. (I'm a Unix guy, and using BSD may be the fastest way for me to get this to work). How similar are the 3 interaces to each other? Is is worth to begin with the DR11 driver..? I've don't looked deep in the DR11 Manual and I dont even have one for the DRV11 Boards (...has someone a Hardware/Programming Manual?) so I'm primarely asking here for some experiences from other people.. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 25 12:31:11 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:31:11 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120725173111.GC20907@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (07/24/2012 at 07:28PM -0400), Charles Dickman wrote: > On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? > > > > Yes. There is a flowchart in the RX02 technical manual, but no listing. The > RX01 TM does have a listing. > > I have no RX02 from which I can get a ROM dump. I do! I have several actually and one was mamed horribly in an accident with mice. Many of the PCB traces were etched off the board by the liquid substance emitted by said mice. However, the PROMs are probably still good. I'll see what I can get out of them... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 25 12:33:27 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:33:27 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <20120725173111.GC20907@n0jcf.net> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120725173111.GC20907@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120725173327.GD20907@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/25/2012 at 12:31PM -0500), Chris Elmquist wrote: > was mamed sorry, that's a game emulator. My RX02 was maimed. -- Chris Elmquist From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:12:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:12:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <500EF98B.1080709@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jul 24, 12 08:37:47 pm Message-ID: > 3" also used in the Tatung Einstein which came with 1 internal drive as True, I can see one from here. > standard but there was space > to take another internal drive and expansion port for an external drive too! The floppy controller could handle 5 drives (as most contorllers could befor the IBM 5150). You could connect 2 extrnal drives. Adn AFAIK you could have 3.5" or 5.25" extrenal drives if you wanted to. The einstein was a curious machine. It was clearly pitched as a competitor to the BBC nicro [1]. In some respects it was superior -- it had 64K user RAM, none of which was taken for video, it always had a disk drive, in others it was inferior (the video system, based round the 50Hz versio nof the 9918 (is that a 9927 or something?) could only do 40 column text. Both the Beeb and the Einstein had a serial port [2], parallel printer port, and user port as standard. Of course the Beeb was a 6502-based machine, the Einstein was Z80A-based, I refust to start that flamewar ;-) [1] As you may know, there was an interface on the BBC micro called the 'Tube', noramlly used to conenct to second processors. The official reason for the name was that it was a thing oyou oculd push datat down, but it was clear that the obvious (to a Brit) pun was intentional [The Tube is a common name for the London Underground railway (==subway), which is, of course an alternative form of public transprot to a bus (omnibus). The Einstein expansion bus is called the 'Pipe', presumably related to a 'tube'. [2] Both the Beeb and the Einstein have a quincuncial 5 pin DIN connector for the serial port. This connector fits either way up. Plugging it in the wrong way up on a BBC micro does nothing useful,. doing that on an Einstein swaps TxD and Rxd, and alos RTS with CTS -- effecively giving an null modem swap. One very odd feature o the Einstein serial port is that the DSR and DTR signals are avaialble on labelled solder pads o nthe PCB. I can't believe anyone ever used them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:15:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:15:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Sent from my iPad", was Re: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <500EFF55.1080706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 24, 12 04:02:29 pm Message-ID: > The "Sent from my iPad" thing is the default signature in the iOS mail Actually, I think I did know that. > client. Most people don't know enough to change it, even though it > takes like 20 seconds. In fact, I'd wager most people don't even know > they're sending it. I would hope people here were clueful enough to set their signature correctly. If I ever write a mail client (which is unlikely), I am liable to make the default signature soemthing like 'I am too clueless to read the fine manaul and configure this mail program' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:19:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:19:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 24, 12 05:07:22 pm Message-ID: > > I've neve seen an official version of it..... > > > > YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and > > disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing > > to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can > > stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl > > machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you. > > Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? My old company I certinly am. The upper board in the drive chassis, the oen that hinges open. It contains a couple of 2901s and some 2911 sequencers IIRC. Writing a disassembler for the mcirocode wasn't hard once I'd understood the hardware. Thgen figuring out what the code did wasn't that hard either, I think it took 3 or 4 train jouneys :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:23:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:23:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <277B47C2-F287-45FD-8897-F44217EDD4BF@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Jul 24, 12 05:16:01 pm Message-ID: > > The ripple is on the output. I figure the filter cap is causing the > problem. Right. I think that is a problem. Firstly, what is the ripple freuqency? If the capcitor is the problem it will be twice the mains frequency (so 120Hz for you I guess). If it's at mains frequency, the problem is likely to be that half of the full-wave rectifier isn't working, maybe an O/C diode, less pleasantly an open-circuit in half of the transformer secondary. As for the capacitor, I think you said the original was 4000uF [1]. I would fit a 4700uF, the extra capacitance won't matter and it'll be easier to get. [1] Why this is _necer_ [2] written as 4mF is beyond me [2] Actually, 'never' is too strong. I am pretty sure I've seen at least one schematic that does thta, maybe an HP one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:56:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:56:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags In-Reply-To: <500F27E6.22916.30F591C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 24, 12 10:55:34 pm Message-ID: > I remember when early MOSFETs were shipped with the leads connected > together by a small jumper. You installed the FET and then clipped > the jumper, Odd and disastrous things could happen if you forgot to > remove the jumper. I've fitted CD laser pickup units where the laser diode was shorted out (for ESD proteciton) by a blob of solder between 2 pads on the fleixprint. After fitting the assembly and connecting the flexiprint to the CD player PCB, you used desolder braid to remvoe this bridge and thus enable the laser. If you forget, it doens't work (but normally no other damage is done). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:42:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:42:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Jul 24, 12 10:44:04 pm Message-ID: > There looks to be a date of 2012 etched into the solder side of the > board... > If this is a mutli-layer board (or could eb a multi-layer board), I think I'd put the date on an internal layer with clear regions on all the other layers so it's visible if you shine light through the PCB. That can't be scraped off. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 15:14:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:14:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: DR11-W and DRV11-WA ... related? In-Reply-To: <20120725160505.GB46611@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Jul 25, 12 06:05:05 pm Message-ID: > > As you already know I got this Tek 611 Thing working lately > and now I think about connecting that Beast to one of the PDP11 systems I > have. They all are QBUS 11's, (12,53,83). > Joachim gave me the hint to use a DRV11 or an DRV11-WA to connect the > needed D/A Converters to supply the Tek611. > I do have both DRV11 Variants. > > Now I'm looked in the 2.11BSDs sources and found a driver for DR11 boards= > , > which looks like a similar parallel interface for the UNIbus. The DR11s are parallel interfacess for Unibus, and there are at least 5 of them : DR11-A was the first one. Originally it was a dual-height card which you used along with an M105 address selector and M782 interrupt logic board. The device conencotr was a dual DEC edge conenctor block o nteh top edge of the card. IIRC this looks to software much like a DL11 -- transmit and receiver data registers (16 bits each I think) and a CSR for each. DR11-B was the first DMA parallel itnerface. It was a custom-wired 4-slot system unit backplane DR11-C was an improved DR11-A I think. DR11-K was part of the 'lab peripherals' set, I can't rememebr waht it did that the otehrs didn't, I would have to dig out the docs DR11-W was an improved DR11-B on one hex card. I think it added some more featrues. It was certianly a DMA device. > > (I'm a Unix guy, and using BSD may be the fastest way for me to get this = > to > work). > > How similar are the 3 interaces to each other? Is is worth to begin with > the DR11 driver..? > I've don't looked deep in the DR11 Manual and I dont even have one for th= > e > DRV11 Boards (...has someone a Hardware/Programming Manual?) so I'm > primarely asking here for some experiences from other people.. IIRC a plain DRV11 is the Q-bus veraion of a DR11-C. A DRV11-W is a Qbus DR11-W. There prgramming interface fo the Unibus and Qbus versions is much the same. but the non-DMA and DMA cards are very different to program. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 25 14:47:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:47:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags In-Reply-To: <20120724211322.S42192@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 24, 12 09:14:21 pm Message-ID: > > > >> Wait wait. You run into a random, unidentified fluid in an unexpected > > >> place... and your instinct is to taste it? > > Is there an easier way to decide whether it is safe to use in the radiator > of your car? Let a cat or dog lap it up. If they seem to enjoy it and then die painfully from kideny failure, it prabably was ethylene glycol antifreeze, and thus OK for your engine coolant. More seriously, anitfreeze _is_ deadly to many animals, and as it tastes sweet they do lap it up. I am always very careful when I work on the car cooling system to be sure there's no spilt coolant left around. I do not want to poison any animal, even accidentally. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 15:59:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 13:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120725135417.S60919@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > The floppy controller could handle 5 drives (as most contorllers could > befor the IBM 5150). Is that a typo (and you meant 4)? (I'm starting to learn to try to differentiate typos from arguable points, and learning that many things are possible that I've never heard about before!)) A friend was trying to figure out how to rework the drive select lines of the TRS-80 to try to access 7 or 14 drives. Fortunately, he switched over to 5160 and hard disks before he invested too much time into that project. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 16:03:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Sent from my iPad", was Re: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120725140211.L60919@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I would hope people here were clueful enough to set their signature > correctly. If I ever write a mail client (which is unlikely), I am liable > to make the default signature soemthing like 'I am too clueless to read > the fine manaul and configure this mail program' :-) OK, so if I ever start sending stuff from a PHONE, I'll set it to: "Sent from somebody too cleless to configure signature" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 25 17:23:50 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:23:50 -0600 Subject: "Sent from my iPad", was Re: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: <20120725140211.L60919@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120725140211.L60919@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <501071F6.70807@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/25/2012 3:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I would hope people here were clueful enough to set their signature >> correctly. If I ever write a mail client (which is unlikely), I am liable >> to make the default signature soemthing like 'I am too clueless to read >> the fine manaul and configure this mail program' :-) > > OK, so if I ever start sending stuff from a PHONE, I'll set it to: > "Sent from somebody too cleless to configure signature" How about ... "One ringie dingie" Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 21:40:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <50100C49.23211.1827317@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120725135417.S60919@shell.lmi.net> <50100C49.23211.1827317@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120725193835.C71109@shell.lmi.net> > > A friend was trying to figure out how to rework the drive select lines > > of the TRS-80 to try to access 7 or 14 drives. Fortunately, he > > switched over to 5160 and hard disks before he invested too much time > > into that project. On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Depending on the vintage of the TRS-80, that's not as silly as it > sounds at first. Didn't most of the early 8" drives (e.g. SA-800) > have a configurable option for either radial or binary select? Model 1, before doubler, nor even external data separator. Shugart SA400 and MPI B-51 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 24 19:54:14 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 > > down to cloning the Christies box > > gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be from the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. Can any of you get a good date code from what you see there? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nekonoko at mac.com Tue Jul 24 21:44:16 2012 From: nekonoko at mac.com (Pete Plank) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:44:16 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8D04F5CC-3A51-46D8-B1A9-890350C856A9@mac.com> On Jul 24, 2012, at 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 > > down to cloning the Christies box > > gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from > Could it be one of these? http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-kit.htm From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Jul 25 03:00:04 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 03:00:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <8D04F5CC-3A51-46D8-B1A9-890350C856A9@mac.com> References: <500F408C.7020409@bitsavers.org> <8D04F5CC-3A51-46D8-B1A9-890350C856A9@mac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Pete Plank wrote: > On Jul 24, 2012, at 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 >> >> down to cloning the Christies box >> >> gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from >> > > Could it be one of these? > > http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-kit.htm The board on eBay certainly looks similar to Mike's board: http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-process.htm I wish Mike had a photo of the solder side of his reproduction boards though. It could be that the seller on eBay based his board design on [read: closely copied] Mike's reproduction board design. Wanna bet we see some Rev 0 Apple II replica boards from this eBay guy before too long too? http://www.ebay.com/itm/280909884952 http://www.willegal.net/appleii/appleii-recreation.htm Hrm... From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 25 15:08:16 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:08:16 -0600 Subject: Looking for DEC VK100 'GIGI' Maintenance print sheets In-Reply-To: <500F8B0E.8000602@gmail.com> References: <500F8B0E.8000602@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <500F8B0E.8000602 at gmail.com>, Jonathan Gevaryahu writes: > Hope that helps, If I run into more I'll send to the list as well. That is awesome! I will get that added to the GIGI page on the terminals wiki when I create it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 15:23:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:23:22 -0400 Subject: AT&T/Western Electric Transmission Module available Message-ID: (apologies for long lines; posting from phone) Is anyone interested in the above mentioned machine, chock full of DS0 modules and a few other things? My employer is moving office and is looking to offload it. It's in the Germantown, MD area (near Washington, DC). I have pictures which I can post publicly once I'm back at an actual computer. If you're interested, you'll probably need to get it by the end of the month, since that's when the old lease is done. Feel free to contact me off-list. - Dave From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 16:01:09 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:01:09 -0500 Subject: AT&T/Western Electric Transmission Module available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2012 1:26 PM, "David Riley" wrote: > > (apologies for long lines; posting from phone) > > Is anyone interested in the above mentioned machine, chock full of DS0 modules and a few other things? My employer is moving office and is looking to offload it. > > It's in the Germantown, MD area (near Washington, DC). I have pictures which I can post publicly once I'm back at an actual computer. > > If you're interested, you'll probably need to get it by the end of the month, since that's when the old lease is done. > Would definitely like to see pics of it! How large a machine are we taking about? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 17:10:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:10:01 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <20120725135417.S60919@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120725135417.S60919@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50100C49.23211.1827317@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2012 at 13:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > A friend was trying to figure out how to rework the drive select lines > of the TRS-80 to try to access 7 or 14 drives. Fortunately, he > switched over to 5160 and hard disks before he invested too much time > into that project. Depending on the vintage of the TRS-80, that's not as silly as it sounds at first. Didn't most of the early 8" drives (e.g. SA-800) have a configurable option for either radial or binary select? --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 25 20:54:23 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:54:23 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/25/2012 at 08:19PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've neve seen an official version of it..... > > > > > > YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and > > > disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing > > > to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can > > > stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl > > > machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you. > > > > Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? My old company > > I certinly am. The upper board in the drive chassis, the oen that hinges > open. It contains a couple of 2901s and some 2911 sequencers IIRC. (2) 2901's and (3) 2909... > Writing a disassembler for the mcirocode wasn't hard once I'd understood > the hardware. Thgen figuring out what the code did wasn't that hard > either, I think it took 3 or 4 train jouneys :-) I find (4) ROM-like substances on the RX02 controller in front of me. Three are MMI 7643-5 devices which are 1024x4 bipolar PROMs at locations E67, E60, E48. One is a TI TBP24S41 which is also a 1024x4 bipolar PROM at location E53. RX02 print set here, http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rx02/MP00629_RX02_Sep78.pdf page 22, shows them all as 7643 type so the TI part is a later substitute I suppose. E67 is labled "229F1". E60 is labled "230F1". E53 is labled "431F1". E48 is labled "232F1". These are not socketed so will need to be desoldered and then fed into a programmer/reader. It looks like my DataIO System 19 will do 24S41/74S476 so I think I can read them there. If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits? If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else, that's good enough reason for me. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jul 25 21:30:29 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:30:29 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <50100C49.23211.1827317@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120725135417.S60919@shell.lmi.net> <50100C49.23211.1827317@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0797F170-40CA-436D-A5AB-9319973880A0@zipcon.net> On Jul 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jul 2012 at 13:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> A friend was trying to figure out how to rework the drive select lines >> of the TRS-80 to try to access 7 or 14 drives. Fortunately, he >> switched over to 5160 and hard disks before he invested too much time >> into that project. > > Depending on the vintage of the TRS-80, that's not as silly as it > sounds at first. Didn't most of the early 8" drives (e.g. SA-800) > have a configurable option for either radial or binary select? > > --Chuck > > > > some of the aftermarket disk controllers allowed up to 4 devices internally and 4 externally at the same time. if i can get in touch with the person who has it i have a model 4 with one of those controllers in it. From chd at chdickman.com Wed Jul 25 21:45:45 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:45:45 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits? > > If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else, > that's good enough reason for me. > > My original request for the listing was to aid in debugging an RX02 emulator that I wrote. -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 22:14:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:14:27 -0700 Subject: prototype floppy media In-Reply-To: <0797F170-40CA-436D-A5AB-9319973880A0@zipcon.net> References: , <50100C49.23211.1827317@cclist.sydex.com>, <0797F170-40CA-436D-A5AB-9319973880A0@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <501053A3.25850.2992AA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2012 at 19:30, Geoff Reed wrote: .> some of the aftermarket disk controllers allowed up to 4 devices > internally and 4 externally at the same time. if i can get in touch > with the person who has it i have a model 4 with one of those > controllers in it. If you had some 8" drives that allowed binary select, some controllers, depending on how drive select was implmented (demux vs. simple latch) could probably select up to 16 drives. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 22:19:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 23:19:57 -0400 Subject: AT&T/Western Electric Transmission Module available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C1BC7BB-829F-47A9-8736-10AE454ACBC5@gmail.com> On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Jul 25, 2012 1:26 PM, "David Riley" wrote: >> >> Is anyone interested in the above mentioned machine, chock full of DS0 >> modules and a few other things? My employer is moving office and is looking >> to offload it. >> >> It's in the Germantown, MD area (near Washington, DC). I have pictures >> which I can post publicly once I'm back at an actual computer. >> >> If you're interested, you'll probably need to get it by the end of the >> month, since that's when the old lease is done. >> > Would definitely like to see pics of it! How large a machine are we taking > about? It's about a half rack tall, I'd guess about 3-4 feet? Generally a bit wider than a 19" rack, since there's an outer cabinet. Probably pretty heavy. You could probably get it onto a pickup truck bed, and there's a loading dock in the back; I don't know the best way to get the unit out of the building, but a hand truck might do the trick with some straps. I know nothing about the working condition, though it appears pretty clean. It was working before, but hasn't been used in a very long time. Here's a gallery of images: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fraveydank/sets/72157630754621502/ Hopefully that should be enough for anyone interested. Just let me know, and I'll put you in touch with the right folks to arrange pickup. - Dave From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 02:36:30 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:36:30 +0200 Subject: TU58 emulator Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm thinking of a way to move as many of the PDP11 systems I have into my attic office to a) get them going, and then b) run them occasionally. I've stripped the two low corporate racks to the chassis, and if I can find a helping hand, I'm sure I can get them into the attic, then put the tabletop of my electronics workbench on top of it (I'm a little short on space). I'm thinking of bolting two pieces of rack profile to one side of each rack, which would turn them into a single unit comprising three racks. That way, I should be able to mount 6 10.5" PDP's and 6 5.25" PDP's, and have them conveniently close to my oscilloscope and logic analyzer to work on them. Now for storage... I have some RL02 drives, but I'm a bit reluctant to drag those upstairs. I have Emulex scsi controllers for three of the PDP's (2 x UC18, 1 x UC08), but the rest is without mass storage. I read about the TU58 emulator that runs on Linux, and I'm thinking of putting a DECserver into the rack with the PDP11's, and use virtual TTY's on a Linux box that connect to the PDP11's over the DECserver, then run multiple instances of the emulator so each PDP has one or more emulated TU58's. I know the "real" TU58 tapes can hold something like 256K of data. Are the operating systems aware of this limit, or could you get by with emulating a larger tape? Thanks for any insight you may have to offer. Warnings like "That's a really bad idea, because..." are also very welcome. Cheers, Camiel From lists at loomcom.com Thu Jul 26 03:13:35 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 04:13:35 -0400 Subject: TU58 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120726081335.GA12218@mail.loomcom.com> * On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:36:30AM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I know the "real" TU58 tapes can hold something like 256K of data. Are > the operating systems aware of this limit, or could you get by with > emulating a larger tape? Hi Camiel, Yes, what you want to do is totally possible. I just did something similar a few days ago, so I'm happy to share what I learned about TU58 emulation with you. But first, be warned that as far as I know this only works with XXDP and RT11. I made use of two pieces of software. 1. tu58em v1.4e, available here in source form: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/ NB: It did NOT compile out of the box on Ubuntu 12.04. I had to edit the Makefile, and change line 22 from this: $(CC) $(LFLAGS) -o $@ main.o tu58.o file.o serial.o to this: $(CC) -o $@ main.o tu58.o file.o serial.o $(LFLAGS) and then it compiled fine. 2. The DOS RT11 image utilities available in a self-extracting archive here: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/rt11arc.exe Documentation is available on the main page here: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm Don't be alarmed - those DOS programs work just fine in Linux under the 'dosemu' environment. That's how I run them. It's not ideal, I wish there were native Linux versions, but they do work. The DOS programs are useful for manipulating RT11 images, and tu58em is what actually serves the image. If all you're doing is READING from the simulated tape, you can make the image any size you want. RT11 only cares about the size of the TU58 when writing to it. This is very useful. If you do want to make a read/write tape, that second webpage I linked to has two modified DD.SYS drivers, one for RT11 and one for XXDP. They allow writing to large tape images if you want. You can put them onto the tape image using the DOS tools. For more information, I found this page helpful as well: http://www.pdp11.co.uk/blog/2008/12/07/building-an-rt-11-tape-for-a-tu58-emulator/ I hope this helps you get started. If you have any questions I'll be happy to try to answer. But yes, it does work! I just installed RT11 5.3 onto a virgin ESDI disk using an image I built in SIMH. I didn't have any other way of getting it onto the PDP-11 except through tu58em. -Seth From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jul 26 03:56:20 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:56:20 +0200 Subject: DR11-W and DRV11-WA ... related? In-Reply-To: References: <20120725160505.GB46611@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120726085620.GB7928@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > As you already know I got this Tek 611 Thing working lately > > and now I think about connecting that Beast to one of the PDP11 systems I > > have. They all are QBUS 11's, (12,53,83). > > Joachim gave me the hint to use a DRV11 or an DRV11-WA to connect the > > needed D/A Converters to supply the Tek611. > > I do have both DRV11 Variants. > > > > Now I'm looked in the 2.11BSDs sources and found a driver for DR11 boards= > > , > > which looks like a similar parallel interface for the UNIbus. > > The DR11s are parallel interfacess for Unibus, and there are at least 5 > of them : > > DR11-A was the first one. Originally it was a dual-height card which you > used along with an M105 address selector and M782 interrupt logic board. > The device conencotr was a dual DEC edge conenctor block o nteh top edge > of the card. IIRC this looks to software much like a DL11 -- transmit and > receiver data registers (16 bits each I think) and a CSR for each. > > DR11-B was the first DMA parallel itnerface. It was a custom-wired 4-slot > system unit backplane > > DR11-C was an improved DR11-A I think. > > DR11-K was part of the 'lab peripherals' set, I can't rememebr waht it > did that the otehrs didn't, I would have to dig out the docs > > DR11-W was an improved DR11-B on one hex card. I think it added some more > featrues. It was certianly a DMA device. > > > > > > (I'm a Unix guy, and using BSD may be the fastest way for me to get this = > > to > > work). > > > > How similar are the 3 interaces to each other? Is is worth to begin with > > the DR11 driver..? > > I've don't looked deep in the DR11 Manual and I dont even have one for th= > > e > > DRV11 Boards (...has someone a Hardware/Programming Manual?) so I'm > > primarely asking here for some experiences from other people.. > > IIRC a plain DRV11 is the Q-bus veraion of a DR11-C. A DRV11-W is a Qbus > DR11-W. There prgramming interface fo the Unibus and Qbus versions is > much the same. but the non-DMA and DMA cards are very different to program. > > -tony THX Tony, what I wanted to know is pretty much that what you wrote in your last sentence. I don't think that I want to fiddle with the DMA capable Interface at the first time. The Speed isn't that much interresting for use with the Tek Display. Thank you very much. Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jul 26 05:27:15 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:27:15 +0200 Subject: TU58 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120726122715.bff8aa8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:36:30 +0200 Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I've stripped the two low corporate racks to the chassis, and if > I can find a helping hand, I'm sure I can get them into the attic Have a look at the racks. Are the posts welded or is it riveted? I had a similar problem with two DEC racks. I removed the rivets with a drill and a chisel. There are only 28 of them. Then I put the parts (the four posts, top and bottom) upstaris and put it back together with M6 screws and hex-nuts. Easy to do, made transportation of the racks much, much easier and the M6 screws hold it together just as well as the rivets. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 05:51:10 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:51:10 +0200 Subject: TU58 emulator In-Reply-To: <20120726122715.bff8aa8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120726122715.bff8aa8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 7/26/12, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:36:30 +0200 > Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > >> I've stripped the two low corporate racks to the chassis, and if >> I can find a helping hand, I'm sure I can get them into the attic > Have a look at the racks. Are the posts welded or is it riveted? > I had a similar problem with two DEC racks. I removed the rivets with a > drill and a chisel. There are only 28 of them. Then I put the parts > (the four posts, top and bottom) upstaris and put it back together with > M6 screws and hex-nuts. Easy to do, made transportation of the racks > much, much easier and the M6 screws hold it together just as well as > the rivets. They are riveted, so this would be feasible. It would make future transportation easier too. Let me think about it... From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Jul 25 16:12:11 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 17:12:11 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 Clock Not Working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7474B90F-3337-437E-B454-4C87C3002B5C@me.com> The frequency of the ripple is indeed 120