From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 03:28:15 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 10:28:15 +0200 Subject: Looking for professional packaging in Stanford Message-ID: I'm working on getting a shipment of some 1980's computer equipment from Stanford, CA to the Netherlands arranged. I've sorted out the pickup, shipping, and delivery part of it, but the systems will need to be palletized prior to pickup. So, I'm looking for someone, or a business, in the area that can go to the location where the systems are with 5 40"x48" pallets and other packaging materials, and then load the cabinets (up to 500 lbs each) onto the pallets, cover them with which corrugated cardboard, secure them to the pallets with straps, and put shrink-wrap all around it. Recommendations for this kind of service are most welcome. Suggestions for alternate packaging options are also welcome. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 1 15:24:12 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 15:24:12 -0500 Subject: equipment available - NH Message-ID: <000001d21c21$c5ed7de0$51c879a0$@classiccmp.org> I have no idea how many people this person emailed, but I did get emailed directly about it so passing it on.. "Stuff" available (as of today for sure) in central NH. See a few pictures at www.ezwind.net/nh The person said it includes 2 or 3 systems (altos? PDP? Vax?), and a lot of documentation and media. Some other documentation is present for other systems (Honeywell, etc.). They also said some Prime manuals but not sure I buy that. Snippets in email I received: You would not want to see what I have go into the dump. My Dad was a programmer from day until . His life's work is in my basement. Includes a VAX and a Dec PC and an Altos. Also have numerous PDP and PDP material. Many VAX/VMS manuals, multitude of software and manuals. And. We have some PDP=10 and somePDP11 books and manuals. Prime. And. Still available. Location Central NH. Come get it or call me via telephone. Where do you want it shipped and can you pay for freight charge? Want it gone now as soon as possible. Thank you. And. Here are pics of the DEC machines and an Altos. All of the documentation goes with the computers and some is from other mid-range platforms. Some text books as well. I need to sell all of this stuff to an interested buyer. Moving and can't take it with me. If you are serious (and able) to get this equipment within a week or two, then contact me off-list and I'll send an introduction email. Whoever takes this on should be in the NorthEastern US at least.. Best, J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 2 09:04:07 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 10:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Datapoint Message-ID: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I just bought, and have been avidly reading: Lamont Wood, "Datapoint: The Lost Story of the Texans Who Invented the Personal Computer Revolution" and I was wondering what other people thought of it. (For those who aren't familiar with it, his thesis is in the sub-title. He reckons the first Datapoint machine, the 2200 - announced 1970, shipped 1971 - was the first personal computer, and a direct ancestor of all the PC's out there today. The Intel 8008 - base of the later 8080 and 8086 - was not actually related to the 4004, but instead was done persuant to a contract with Datapoint to provide a CPU for the 2200, to replace its inital CPU, which was built out of discrete chips.) It seems to be a reasonably scholarly work - he did a lot of interviewing of the principals, has made extensive use of archives of contempory written material, and it has some source footnotes (although not as many as would be optimal). So I think he might have a good case.... Any collectors of early Datapoint machines out there on the list? If his thesis is correct (and I think it is) these are very historic machines - up there with Altairs, etc. Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 10:27:16 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 17:27:16 +0200 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-10-02 16:04 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa : > So I just bought, and have been avidly reading: > > Lamont Wood, "Datapoint: The Lost Story of the Texans Who Invented the > Personal Computer Revolution" > > and I was wondering what other people thought of it. > > (For those who aren't familiar with it, his thesis is in the sub-title. He > reckons the first Datapoint machine, the 2200 - announced 1970, shipped > 1971 - > was the first personal computer, and a direct ancestor of all the PC's out > there today. The Intel 8008 - base of the later 8080 and 8086 - was not > actually related to the 4004, but instead was done persuant to a contract > with > Datapoint to provide a CPU for the 2200, to replace its inital CPU, which > was > built out of discrete chips.) > > It seems to be a reasonably scholarly work - he did a lot of interviewing > of > the principals, has made extensive use of archives of contempory written > material, and it has some source footnotes (although not as many as would > be > optimal). > > So I think he might have a good case.... > > Any collectors of early Datapoint machines out there on the list? If his > thesis is correct (and I think it is) these are very historic machines - up > there with Altairs, etc. > I think that Incoterm is worth mentioning in the same context as the Datapoint 2200. Incoterm was founded in 1968 and filed a number of patents for their Intelligent terminals in 1969. There are ads from 1972 showing their SPD line of terminals. From one perspective they are a little bit more than just a terminal. It could be programmed to do all sorts of jobs. It had diskette drives and there were simple games to run on them. Like the Datapoint it was an all TTL design. I am not sure when the Incoterm terminals were first put on the market. The information I have I gathered from various sources including Neil Frieband, one of the first employees: http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/incoterm-spd-20-20 Another early general purpose computer was the Q1 Corporation 8008 based computers apparently delivered in December 1971. Daniel Alroy (co-founder of Q1) writes about it on this webpage: http://www.philon.net/technology/ /Mattis > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 10:57:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 08:57:42 -0700 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <303533fd-2174-6ef3-cd28-3c2320920aa5@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/16 7:04 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Any collectors of early Datapoint machines out there on the list? I have a 2200 with screen rot (don't they all) Not a lot of activity, CHM has some machines, I've archived some cassettes and floppies along with docs. Some work was done on simulation. http://www.datapoint.org/cms/?q=node/12 (RIP) I think Austin Roche saved some of it https://www.flickr.com/photos/treyerice/5031224397 http://www.kuonlinedirectory.org/studygroups/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/The-Almost-Forgotten-Story-of-Computer-Terminal-Corporation_4_2_16_small.pdf http://www.datapoint.org/cms/?q=node/4 ARCnet came from them. Very little has survived from their later machines. Sellam had some stuff that was scattered to the winds. Ted Nelson worked for them for a while. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 11:01:25 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 09:01:25 -0700 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: <303533fd-2174-6ef3-cd28-3c2320920aa5@bitsavers.org> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <303533fd-2174-6ef3-cd28-3c2320920aa5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <69a69fbf-249b-d591-29b3-af084a2314f8@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/16 8:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Ted Nelson worked for them for a while. > > http://hyperland.com/TNvita 1981-82: Chief designer of office software, Datapoint Corporation, San Antonio, Texas. TN's "Vortext" design (December 1981) is adapted as Datapoint's next-generation text system. Datapoint's Advanced Technology division bundles this design into their proposed "Road Runner" software package. The Road Runner design is submitted to Datapoint management in April 1982. Datapoint backs away from this project and abandons further technical development in general, leading to the company's speedy demise. 1983-4: Media specialist, Datapoint. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 2 12:11:12 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 10:11:12 -0700 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <27242056-989C-4B96-8188-9F600D86BF21@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Oct-02, at 7:04 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I just bought, and have been avidly reading: > > Lamont Wood, "Datapoint: The Lost Story of the Texans Who Invented the > Personal Computer Revolution" > > and I was wondering what other people thought of it. > > (For those who aren't familiar with it, his thesis is in the sub-title. He > reckons the first Datapoint machine, the 2200 - announced 1970, shipped 1971 - > was the first personal computer, and a direct ancestor of all the PC's out > there today. The Intel 8008 - base of the later 8080 and 8086 - was not > actually related to the 4004, but instead was done persuant to a contract with > Datapoint to provide a CPU for the 2200, to replace its inital CPU, which was > built out of discrete chips.) > > It seems to be a reasonably scholarly work - he did a lot of interviewing of > the principals, has made extensive use of archives of contempory written > material, and it has some source footnotes (although not as many as would be > optimal). > > So I think he might have a good case.... > > Any collectors of early Datapoint machines out there on the list? If his > thesis is correct (and I think it is) these are very historic machines - up > there with Altairs, etc. Does he contrast it with the Viatron 21 ? - might be a contender. The 21 is mentioned in the this nice web article about LSI processor development around the late 60's (contenders for "first microprocessor") including the Datapoint involvement: http://www.righto.com/2015/05/the-texas-instruments-tmx-1795-first.html There's a Datapoint 1800 on ebay right now. Not sure where that fits in Datapoint's products, can't see enough of it to date it well, but the construction looks like it might be as early as mid-70's; http://www.ebay.com/itm/DataPoint-Terminal-Mdl-1800-ships-worldwide-/152262194087?hash=item237388b3a7:g:WiUAAOSwpDdVEXuQ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 12:51:17 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 10:51:17 -0700 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: <27242056-989C-4B96-8188-9F600D86BF21@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <27242056-989C-4B96-8188-9F600D86BF21@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 10/2/16 10:11 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > There's a Datapoint 1800 on ebay right now. No one loves printers, or terminals. Just their keyboards. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 12:55:32 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 13:55:32 -0400 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <27242056-989C-4B96-8188-9F600D86BF21@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I have a 3300 (with power supply issue) and I have the book/read it. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 2 13:03:42 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 14:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/35 on eBait Message-ID: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there's another 11/35 up on eBait: http://www.ebay.com/itm/142135416325 10-1/2 'desktop' cabinet. It does have the semi-mythical KE11-F, from what I can see. Not sure what the group of 4 quad cards is (none of the pictures show the numbers clearly) - maybe an RK11-D, if we can believe the tape along the edge? Does have a couple of DL11's, and one 16KB core memory group. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 15:31:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 16:31:24 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So there's another 11/35 up on eBait: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142135416325 > > 10-1/2 'desktop' cabinet. It does have the semi-mythical KE11-F, from what > I > can see. Not sure what the group of 4 quad cards is (none of the pictures > show the numbers clearly) - maybe an RK11-D, if we can believe the tape > along > the edge? Does have a couple of DL11's, and one 16KB core memory group. > > Noel > Interesting it has non-parity RAM. This is a simple system for an 11/35, probably used to send/receive data to peripherals, part of a larger system with more than one CPU unit. Just my initial impression. Some of the CPU options not present. Bill From isking at uw.edu Sun Oct 2 20:23:14 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 18:23:14 -0700 Subject: TeleVideo progress Message-ID: Hi all, I've posted looking for help with a TeleVideo TPC-1, and I've heard a lot of crickets - apparently this isn't a commonly held machine. :-) But I've made progress with it, which I want to share. When I first got it, the display would light up and ask me to insert a floppy. Doing so would promptly douse the display. I figured, 'power supply', and recapped the entire thing - after the venture of figuring out how to open the case! I found a post in netnews that strongly suggested TeleVideo had suppressed information about opening the case to protect their service centers' business.... It's an odd combination of 'push there, pull there and be bold', but I got it open. Recapping was a success, and the machine attempts to boot from disk 0 - and tries, and tries, and.... I figured that drive 0, being the most used, might have issues, but wasn't looking forward to pulling out the drive cage and swapping them as a test. But then I noticed that drive 1's circuit board was visible, and I rejumpered it to be drive 0 - and success, the machine booted into CP/M! Sure, I could just leave it as a single-drive machine, or swap the two and pray - but this is a restoration. I've ordered an exact, tested/guaranteed working replacement from ePay, and I'm going to have everything working to spec before I snap this thing back together. Yes, I'm having fun. :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 22:05:32 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:05:32 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 Model 550 sold on eBay Message-ID: I was wondering if this item would attract much attention. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262642624725 Sold for $787 this evening. I don't know anything about these systems. Looks interesting, but this bit of text didn't sound too encouraging: "The 550s have not held up particularly well over time. As of 2013, the museum had two units. Both units have non-functioning power supplies. The system control boards are also subject to damage from battery corrosion." http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=581 Also this bit of text about the HP-UX 5.0 Operating System: "The downloadable file is an image of the system software tape for HP-UX on 500 Series computers. It was made from a 150ft tape. We obtained 47 read errors while imaging the tape, so it's probably not entirely intact, and we don't have a working 500 Series machine to check. However, the file contents of the tape are readable by issuing the BASIC CAT command from a 300 Series computer." http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=534 Just curious if anyone knows much about these systems and if anyone has one in working condition. What might the chances be for whoever bought this system to get it into any sort of working setup? Does anyone else have software for these squirreled away in their collections? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 22:20:36 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:20:36 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 Model 550 sold on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <264d0ded-65c6-61f5-9747-2d81a5c74956@bitsavers.org> I was offered to CHM before it went up on eBay. I couldn't justify getting it because we just accepted a model 520 with disk subsystem. Many working systems passed through Crisis Computer. They are still in use in parts of the government, which is probably why it went for what it did. On 10/2/16 8:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Just curious if anyone knows much about these systems and if anyone > has one in working condition. What might the chances be for whoever > bought this system to get it into any sort of working setup? Does > anyone else have software for these squirreled away in their > collections? > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 2 22:20:43 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:20:43 -0700 Subject: TeleVideo progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64e31f4a-6e57-bedd-1dde-f0c4baea3b15@jwsss.com> On 10/2/2016 6:23 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Hi all, > > I've posted looking for help with a TeleVideo TPC-1, and I've heard a lot > of crickets I saw your FB posting, good job, and chirp chirp. > I've ordered an exact, tested/guaranteed > working replacement from ePay, Those were common drives, but be sure to do a careful inspection, as some of the drives had variants that were subtle. good job, great you got it working. thanks JIm > and I'm going to have everything working to > spec before I snap this thing back together. > > Yes, I'm having fun. :-) > -- Note change in email address. Please use reply-to address. TWC is changing their email and this may change again reply to is jwsmail at jwsss.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 22:53:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:53:27 -0700 Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense connectors Message-ID: <7cf54132-fe8b-abde-0fe0-d4dcfeb17f04@bitsavers.org> I'm working on documenting these supplies, since there seems to be almost nothing on them on the web of use. There is a list of what is on the 9 pin molex on the SM, but no actual pinout. Same for the 15 pin D on the MMA, but at least there are enough pictures around to be able to assume the sense lines are on 1 and 2. The general form of the part numbers for them starts with 2 or 3 letters (TM,MM,MMA,SM) a rough power rating code (1-7) and the number of outputs (1-5) a dash, then model number probably encoding supply outputs/amps. This is based on looking at a bunch of eBay pictures. They want waaaay too much money for them on there. This all started because I need to fix the MM72s for the Alto. I got the four I took a look at fixed by replacing all of the 19000uF/7.5v caps. All of them were dried out. Not a huge surprise since they were from around 1978. Measured the rest of the caps in them with an in circuit capacitance/ESR meter and they were all reasonable, even the 1400uf/200v ones, which I had some spares for, but are much harder to find in the right size than the 19mF ones. Switching supplies from the mid 70's are NOISY (10-20mV on all four supplies) From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 3 00:37:25 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 07:37:25 +0200 Subject: My H316 environment Message-ID: Hi folks, if you're interested... I have made available my Honeywell H316 environment. Consists of all you need to run the machine and more. Contains software to split and rearrange libraries. The Fortran IV compiler SOURCE. The assembler. Scripts that run compiler and assembler transparently on files (with help of SIMH). Plotter library. Mandelbrot program. Much more. Only SIMH is needed. The rest should be done by the Makefile. It's just all I have. http://gitweb.hachti.de/git/h316.git :-) -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de facebook.com/buchdruck UStdID DE 202668329 From spedraja at ono.com Mon Oct 3 03:47:10 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 10:47:10 +0200 Subject: My H316 environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks a lot, Philipp ! Sergio 2016-10-03 7:37 GMT+02:00 Philipp Hachtmann : > Hi folks, > > if you're interested... I have made available my Honeywell H316 environment. > Consists of all you need to run the machine and more. > > Contains software to split and rearrange libraries. The Fortran IV compiler > SOURCE. The assembler. Scripts that run compiler and assembler transparently > on files (with help of SIMH). > Plotter library. Mandelbrot program. Much more. Only SIMH is needed. The > rest should be done by the Makefile. It's just all I have. > > http://gitweb.hachti.de/git/h316.git > > > :-) > > > > -- > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover > Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 > Fax. 0511/3500439 > philipp at hachtmann.com > > www.tiegeldruck.de > facebook.com/buchdruck > > UStdID DE 202668329 From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 05:19:36 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 06:19:36 -0400 Subject: My H316 environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2016 4:47 AM, "SPC" wrote: > > Thanks a lot, Philipp ! > > Sergio > > 2016-10-03 7:37 GMT+02:00 Philipp Hachtmann : > > Hi folks, > > > > if you're interested... I have made available my Honeywell H316 environment. > > Consists of all you need to run the machine and more. > > > > Contains software to split and rearrange libraries. The Fortran IV compiler > > SOURCE. The assembler. Scripts that run compiler and assembler transparently > > on files (with help of SIMH). > > Plotter library. Mandelbrot program. Much more. Only SIMH is needed. The > > rest should be done by the Makefile. It's just all I have. > > > > http://gitweb.hachti.de/git/h316.git > > > > Philipp, Do you have hardware photos of your Honeywell systems, your 316 / 516 site link from your youtube video does not come up. In particular I wanted to see your 516 console card cage/cables. Thanks Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 3 08:41:46 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 15:41:46 +0200 Subject: My H316 environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, > Do you have hardware photos of your Honeywell systems, your 316 / 516 site > link from your youtube video does not come up. http://h316.org seems to work for me. Please confirm if it really does not work. > In particular I wanted to > see your 516 console card cage/cables. The 516 has been stowed away for years. I still have all the pieces including rack. But back then I was frustrated because I miss some hardware to put it all together (real hardware, for assembling the whole cabinet). What exactly do you want to see? Regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de facebook.com/buchdruck UStdID DE 202668329 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 3 10:08:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 11:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/35 on eBait Message-ID: <20161003150811.8ED3D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > Some of the CPU options not present. Huh? The KT11-D is there, as is the KE11-E and KE11-E, and even a KJ11-A of sorts (might be an after-market one, doesn't have the standard DEC handle). What other 11/40 CPU options are there? Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 3 10:12:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 08:12:13 -0700 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <20161003150811.8ED3D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161003150811.8ED3D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <451f01af-2751-9e83-ae4f-e7a4f34b6973@bitsavers.org> On 10/3/16 8:08 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > What other 11/40 CPU options are there? > Stack Limit and RTC From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 10:08:08 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 15:08:08 +0000 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <20161003150811.8ED3D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161003150811.8ED3D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Huh? The KT11-D is there, as is the KE11-E and KE11-E, and even a KJ11-A of > sorts (might be an after-market one, doesn't have the standard DEC handle). > What other 11/40 CPU options are there? KW11-L line time clock? -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 3 10:37:58 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 11:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/35 on eBait Message-ID: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > Stack Limit That's there - that's the KJ11. > From: Tony Duell > KW11-L line time clock? I don't really consider the LTC as a CPU option. It's on the actual UNIBUS, it's just in a specially wired UNIBUS slot that's only one slot wide, and only has BR/G6 and D6/7 wired to it. Yes, in this case that slot is in the CPU, so one can make an argument... Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 11:07:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 12:07:24 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > Stack Limit > > That's there - that's the KJ11. > > > From: Tony Duell > > > KW11-L line time clock? > > I don't really consider the LTC as a CPU option. It's on the actual UNIBUS, > it's just in a specially wired UNIBUS slot that's only one slot wide, and > only > has BR/G6 and D6/7 wired to it. Yes, in this case that slot is in the CPU, > so > one can make an argument... > > Noel > I should have been more precise, but my point is that this is a non-parity RAM basic 11/35 system useful for peripheral interfacing and communications. As is, not good for something like RT11. b From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 3 11:13:53 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 12:13:53 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <36B372D4-6A60-4A27-97B7-213FAE79EC6D@comcast.net> > On Oct 3, 2016, at 12:07 PM, william degnan wrote: > ... > I should have been more precise, but my point is that this is a non-parity > RAM basic 11/35 system useful for peripheral interfacing and > communications. As is, not good for something like RT11. I wouldn't look at it this way. Non-parity memory is fine for any application if you judge the risk of memory error to be low enough for that application. Peripheral interfacing or communications may or may not be such an application. An application running on RT11 may or may not be. The OS isn't what decides this, but rather the requirements of the application: the expected bit error rate for the memory technology in use vs. the failure rate that's tolerable for the application. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 11:46:37 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 12:46:37 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <36B372D4-6A60-4A27-97B7-213FAE79EC6D@comcast.net> References: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <36B372D4-6A60-4A27-97B7-213FAE79EC6D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 3, 2016, at 12:07 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > ... > > I should have been more precise, but my point is that this is a > non-parity > > RAM basic 11/35 system useful for peripheral interfacing and > > communications. As is, not good for something like RT11. > > I wouldn't look at it this way. Non-parity memory is fine for any > application if you judge the risk of memory error to be low enough for that > application. Peripheral interfacing or communications may or may not be > such an application. An application running on RT11 may or may not be. > The OS isn't what decides this, but rather the requirements of the > application: the expected bit error rate for the memory technology in use > vs. the failure rate that's tolerable for the application. > > paul > > 16K RAM does not make for much of an RT11 system. The industrial/beefy 11/40's all have parity RAM. My PDP 11/05 has the same core stack as this 11/35. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 12:37:13 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 13:37:13 -0400 Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense connectors Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:53:27 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense > connectors > Message-ID: <7cf54132-fe8b-abde-0fe0-d4dcfeb17f04 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I'm working on documenting these supplies, since there seems to be almost > nothing on them on > the web of use. There is a list of what is on the 9 pin molex on the SM, > but no actual pinout. > Same for the 15 pin D on the MMA, but at least there are enough pictures > around to be able to > assume the sense lines are on 1 and 2. > > The general form of the part numbers for them starts with 2 or 3 letters > (TM,MM,MMA,SM) a rough > power rating code (1-7) and the number of outputs (1-5) a dash, then model > number probably encoding > supply outputs/amps. This is based on looking at a bunch of eBay pictures. > Al, I have a MM65-E0506/115 that needs repair. This is also known as a DEC H7130C from a KS10. 5V at 30A 5V at 60A 12V at 10A 15V at 3A 5V at 5A I see lots of companies that advertise repair services for these supplies, so the documentation must exist. It would be great if you could find some documentation for these power supplies. -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 3 12:50:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 10:50:42 -0700 Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39045411-61f8-4eeb-61bb-640294ac7a85@bitsavers.org> On 10/3/16 10:37 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Al, > > I have a MM65-E0506/115 that needs repair. > This is also known as a DEC H7130C from a KS10. > 5V at 30A > 5V at 60A > 12V at 10A > 15V at 3A > 5V@ > I see lots of companies that advertise repair services for these supplies, > so the documentation must exist. It would be great if you could find some > documentation for these power supplies. > Pontus mentions it here http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16729704&sid=4d1bbd98156998f0128b5ce443c5097f&start=15#p7381694 If you have a capacitance/esr meter, I'd start there. I have a manual for a Super-Mite SM10 series coming. There was one shot of the schematic page in the eBay listing and I can recognize the general structure being similar to the MM, just beefier HV switching. I'll dump everything I've got so far up on bitsavers under LH_Research. That reminds me, the PS sense pinout should be in the KS10 engineering drawings From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 3 13:05:46 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 19:05:46 +0100 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <36B372D4-6A60-4A27-97B7-213FAE79EC6D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 03/10/2016 17:46, william degnan wrote: > On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Oct 3, 2016, at 12:07 PM, william degnan >> wrote: >>> ... >>> I should have been more precise, but my point is that this is a non-parity >>> RAM basic 11/35 system useful for peripheral interfacing and >>> communications. As is, not good for something like RT11. >> >> I wouldn't look at it this way. Non-parity memory is fine for any >> application if you judge the risk of memory error to be low enough > 16K RAM does not make for much of an RT11 system. The industrial/beefy > 11/40's all have parity RAM. My PDP 11/05 has the same core stack as this > 11/35. I agree with Paul. I've seen dozens of RT-11 systems and non-parity MOS memory has been more common in the ones I've seen. I see no reason to think it would be a problem. True, 16K is small even for RT-11, but I've seen plenty like that too. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 3 13:23:26 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 11:23:26 -0700 Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense connectors In-Reply-To: <39045411-61f8-4eeb-61bb-640294ac7a85@bitsavers.org> References: <39045411-61f8-4eeb-61bb-640294ac7a85@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/3/16 10:50 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > That reminds me, the PS sense pinout should be in the KS10 engineering drawings > it is, and I've added it to the lh_research stuff, but it's on barrier strips since it is a MM weird that it has two AC inputs I wonder if it's actually two supplies in a single package From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 3 13:27:19 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 14:27:19 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <36B372D4-6A60-4A27-97B7-213FAE79EC6D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 3, 2016, at 2:05 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > ... > I agree with Paul. I've seen dozens of RT-11 systems and non-parity MOS memory has been more common in the ones I've seen. I see no reason to think it would be a problem. True, 16K is small even for RT-11, but I've seen plenty like that too. 16 kwords? That's at least 2x the minimum for older versions. I did my honors work in college on an 11/20 with 8 kW... which was big enough not just for RT11, but for RT-BASIC and some reasonable sized applications. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 13:44:04 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 18:44:04 +0000 Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense connectors In-Reply-To: References: <39045411-61f8-4eeb-61bb-640294ac7a85@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: > weird that it has two AC inputs > I wonder if it's actually two supplies in a single package Probably not applicable to this PSU, but I've worked on SMPUs where there were separate AC Inputs for the power supply for the internal control circuitry (often feeding a little linear PSU in the unit) and for the main rectifier/smoothing caps/chopper. It was done for ease of servicing (they actually cared about such things back then) You could power up the control circuits and check waveforms. etc without any risk to the choppers, then power up the chopper circuit from a current-limited supply so that if anything went wrong the damage would be minimised (no traces blown off the PCB, etc). HP certainly did this in the PSU for the HP2100A mini. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 14:51:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 15:51:53 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161003153758.A638E18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <36B372D4-6A60-4A27-97B7-213FAE79EC6D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 3, 2016, at 2:05 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > > > > ... > > I agree with Paul. I've seen dozens of RT-11 systems and non-parity MOS > memory has been more common in the ones I've seen. I see no reason to > think it would be a problem. True, 16K is small even for RT-11, but I've > seen plenty like that too. > > 16 kwords? That's at least 2x the minimum for older versions. I did my > honors work in college on an 11/20 with 8 kW... which was big enough not > just for RT11, but for RT-BASIC and some reasonable sized applications. > > paul > > > fine. I am not going to win. Is it *possible* yes...Hoping you can take the spirit of my original comments - this is not a beefed up 11/35 is all I am trying to say. If you want to run some old copy of RT 11 on this machine by all means do it. From evan at snarc.net Mon Oct 3 15:15:48 2016 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 16:15:48 -0400 Subject: VCFed is restructuring Message-ID: <69a90807-8fcf-9b63-7ed2-7be3cd655d8b@snarc.net> Vintage Computer Federation has big dreams. We?re restructuring our organization to help make them come true. Our mission is to empower collectors, grow the community, and teach everyone about computer history. We especially want to raise interest in computer history among young people. To do so, we are planning many changes. For example, we want to expand the Vintage Computer Festival event series, offer new resources on the vcfed.org site, foster regional chapters, and improve our museum space. There are still other ideas that we hope to share in 2017 and beyond. We firmly believe these goals are attainable and imperative. However, as an all-volunteer unit, there simply isn?t enough time to devote to our cause without overly sacrificing time spent at our regular jobs, being with family, collecting vintage computers, and so on. As such, effective today, Vintage Computer Federation co-founder Evan Koblentz is stepping down as president and accepts the new position of part-time director. Evan is the Federation?s first employee. He reports to the board. Evan will continue day-to-day administration of the Federation and will embark on new fundraising initiatives. Erik Klein, formerly vice president, is now board chairman. Jeffrey Brace, also formerly a vice president, is now vice-chairman. Corey Cohen retains his role as business manager. We feel this new structure will help us gain resources, meet our goals, and continue to save and teach computer history for many years to come. Vintage Computer Federation Inc. is a 501(c) non-profit organization. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 3 15:17:55 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 22:17:55 +0200 Subject: pinouts for LH Research Super-Mite and Mighty-Mite-A sense connectors In-Reply-To: <39045411-61f8-4eeb-61bb-640294ac7a85@bitsavers.org> References: <39045411-61f8-4eeb-61bb-640294ac7a85@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161003201755.GM10521@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 03, 2016 at 10:50:42AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Pontus mentions it here > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16729704&sid=4d1bbd98156998f0128b5ce443c5097f&start=15#p7381694 Did you also find Jan-Jaaps personal gallery? Not sure it adds much, but there are some pictures of the inside of the MightyMITE: http://www.vdheijden-messerli.net/sgistuff/photos/2011.01.08-mightymite/ /Pontus (the same as on nekochan) From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Oct 3 16:24:20 2016 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 23:24:20 +0200 Subject: Datapoint In-Reply-To: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <77fd4e1a-a51c-e4ae-e701-678133ac588f@acc.umu.se> Den 2016-10-02 kl. 16:04, skrev Noel Chiappa: > Any collectors of early Datapoint machines out there on the list? I got a DP2200 version I with serial memory, missing pieces and screen rot. I got it in my teens, 30-35 years ago and along the way I picked off some pieces. The most visible things the keyboard (25 years ago) and the cover (10 years ago), then I realized just in time what I had before tossing it out as scrap. My plan is sometime to take the time to get it running again. To my help I got... Another DP2200 version II with random access memory, screenrot and one broken key but otherwise complete. It got issues with the power supply but is probably not too far from running condition. Anyone got a spare keyboard? :-) G?ran From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 19:53:31 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 20:53:31 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? Message-ID: I've got a half dozen different source trees for mc680x0 Unixen, but nothing for an mc68010 CPU + mc68451 MMU. I know Unisoft did some. I don't know if the Motorola ports (like for the VME/10) were Unisoft or done internally. Did any '010+'451 source trees survive to escape into the wild? KJ From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 3 20:25:56 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 20:25:56 -0500 Subject: uVAX system (mostly) that Ian King was interested in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57F30524.4050005@pico-systems.com> On 10/02/2016 08:23 PM, Ian S. King wrote: Back in July we corresponded about a uVAX system that was less than complete that you had expressed interest in. I sent a private email, but didn't get a response. So, I'm trying again here. What I have is the lower part of cabinet, power supply and main board, no mezzanine boards for DV-31ETA-A-A01 VaxStation 3100. The unit is 16 Lbs, and 20 x 15 x 6" without a box. I'd guess it would be at least 20 Lbs when boxed up. Are you still interested, Ian? (Sorry to have to send this to the whole list...) Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 3 21:21:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 19:21:13 -0700 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> the will probably be 68000 unisoft kernels i've used weren't 010 with the 451 i'll have to dig around for what bits of the 451 kernel i still have around. unisoft kept the mmu parts pretty well isolated since the did so many hw ports On 10/3/16 5:53 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > I've got a half dozen different source trees for mc680x0 Unixen, but > nothing for an mc68010 CPU + mc68451 MMU. I know Unisoft did some. I > don't know if the Motorola ports (like for the VME/10) were Unisoft or > done internally. > > Did any '010+'451 source trees survive to escape into the wild? > > KJ > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 3 21:36:18 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 19:36:18 -0700 Subject: IBM + misc Available in Sacramento CA In-Reply-To: <303533fd-2174-6ef3-cd28-3c2320920aa5@bitsavers.org> References: <20161002140407.0811218C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <303533fd-2174-6ef3-cd28-3c2320920aa5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7ceb5002-1798-c7c2-126e-7329821a17ff@sbcglobal.net> Got the following message from Daniel de Long. Please respond to him directly at: delong at ulink.net Dan de Long R&D Data Corp 2425 24th Street Sacramento Ca 95818 Phone 916 452 8233 He may be willing to ship stuff. Bob, Equipment available: Three new IBM 9518 Color Display in factory box, $85 each. IBM 3287-2 Printer IBM 552 Interpreter IBM 557 Interpreter 4 new IBM 4245 Print bands part number 1509724 2 EMC Symmetrix 16 and 24 drive 1 Telex 287 Printer (IBM 3287 type) 2 Telex 8020 Model 266 Tape Drive 9 track 1600/6250 BPI 1 Memorex line printer speed between 1200-1500 lines per minute 1 Memorex 1270Terminal Controller addresses 20-3F 2 Storagetek 4670 tape controller with built in tape drive 1600/6250 bpi, $125 each 11 Storagetek 4674 tape drive 9 track 1600/6250, $75 each 3 Control Data 9 track tape drives and PC controller card & cable, $275 each 2 Cipher 9 track tape drive, $250 each 1 Memorex 3693 Controller with Drive 3 Memorex 3690 Drive (IBM 3370) 2 Fujitsu M2485 (IBM 3480 type) tape drive 18 Track 1 Fujitsu M2485N CA01011-B063 36 Track with auto loader 1 Fujitsu 128 Track tape drive -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:09:37 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 23:09:37 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? References: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <83A8E8C96C42414A94CC774A6A1D8104@310e2> Did Unisoft distribution tapes normally include sources? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Monday, October 03, 2016 10:21 PM Subject: Re: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? > the will probably be 68000 > > unisoft kernels i've used weren't 010 with the 451 > > i'll have to dig around for what bits of the 451 kernel i still > have around. unisoft kept the mmu parts pretty well isolated since > the did so many hw ports > > > On 10/3/16 5:53 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: >> I've got a half dozen different source trees for mc680x0 Unixen, but >> nothing for an mc68010 CPU + mc68451 MMU. I know Unisoft did some. I >> don't know if the Motorola ports (like for the VME/10) were Unisoft or >> done internally. >> >> Did any '010+'451 source trees survive to escape into the wild? >> >> KJ >> > From phil at ultimate.com Mon Oct 3 22:19:46 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 23:19:46 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> References: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201610040319.u943JkZf085365@ultimate.com> A quick google search found: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.linux.m68k/-8iweTkxPNI/L2-hPrW_ryAJ mentions: I have an ancient Unix system made by ProComp in Switzerland that has a 68000 CPU, 4 MB RAM and that 68451 MMU. Unfortunately, I didn't get a hard disk or system media for this oldtimer :( It ran a port of 7th edition Unix as well as some System III variant. Would surely be nice to see Linux running on that machine ;) but I should better go and work on the MVME147 port ... https://books.google.com/books?id=cgHPkXYCnqwC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=68451+unix&source=bl&ots=3N-UfxlPsB&sig=bl0xSPSsEchjt91QMzTJV9xPcKY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjckJDulcDPAhXEOSYKHcI6AfYQ6AEIKzAD#v=onepage&q=68451%20unix&f=false has an announcement of the Fortune Systems "Multiplier" with the 68010 and 68451 https://books.google.com/books?id=MdBP83DW6g4C&pg=RA1-PA78&lpg=RA1-PA78&dq=68451+unix&source=bl&ots=quw5PrcI0f&sig=9Y9Q3y0k31-Nh5w9F269KbvbY5A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjckJDulcDPAhXEOSYKHcI6AfYQ6AEILTAE#v=onepage&q=68451%20unix&f=false mentions the DY-4 Systems Inc DSM-6816 with 68000 and 68451 at http://comp.sys.3b1.narkive.com/olPp7IM0/fs-cosmos-cms-16-unx-vintage-unix-computer-and-sun-multibus-boards Al Kossow writes that the COSMOS CMS-16/UNX has "a daughter card with 68000 and Motorola 68451 MMU is visible." From lyndon at orthanc.ca Mon Oct 3 22:34:28 2016 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 20:34:28 -0700 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: <201610040319.u943JkZf085365@ultimate.com> References: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> <201610040319.u943JkZf085365@ultimate.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:19 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > > I have an ancient Unix system made by ProComp in Switzerland that has a > 68000 CPU, 4 MB RAM and that 68451 MMU. Unfortunately, I didn't get a hard disk > or system media for this oldtimer :( It ran a port of 7th edition Unix as well > as some System III variant. Would surely be nice to see Linux running on > that machine ;) Please don't defile it like that. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 3 23:49:55 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 05:49:55 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. Message-ID: Hi All I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. It has the portable (weighs a ton) reader with it. On trying it out. I found the results were awful. A good clean of the light path and removal of some disintegrating foam improved things no end. That left two issues: 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff and clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Oct 4 00:10:57 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 22:10:57 -0700 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I could scan a fiche in about 10 min with an Epson transparency scanner. I think Al may have an actual digitizer but they are expensive. As to the fiche reader you got, I've never seen one with a plastic carrier. They always had glass in my case. On the one I have you can pop out the view screen, and the lens is about the size of a small microscope objective. Mine came with one for fiche, and one for aperture cards. The lenses were easy to slide out and swap. See if you find one for the scale you need for DEC on epay maybe? I am glad you have the magnification value, I've only had ones which were multiples of a base size, so 1x, 1.2x etc. The Epson I mentioned has the XP era driver to allow their software to create a template for scanning. Once you have identified the size of a page on the media, I found it easy to just move it to plop over top of each of the other images, then could scan the fiche as fast as the scanner could run. It was one of their Precision models which could do 5.7 transparancies. I created a small guide to position the fiche itself in the same spot, so I only had to build up the template once. Thanks Jim On 10/3/2016 9:49 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. > > 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff > and clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. -- Note change in email address. Please use reply-to address. TWC is changing their email and this may change again reply to is jwsmail at jwsss.com From other at oryx.us Tue Oct 4 00:16:30 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2016 00:16:30 -0500 Subject: Any updates on the 3b2 emulator? Message-ID: <57F33B2E.4060104@oryx.us> Hello Seth, Its been a few months, and I am wondering if the 3b2 emulator project is still moving forward, or put on the back burner for now? Thanks for any updates, Jerry From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 4 04:46:02 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 05:46:02 -0400 Subject: Getting Ready to the NeXT Adventure at SMECC Message-ID: <2ab457.1bcc86d2.4524d459@aol.com> Getting Ready to the NeXT Adventure at SMECC Found some of the boxes of cables, the mouse, trays for the laser printer. Another crate had these slipcases with lots of 8x11 NeXT Manuals in them... In addition there are CDs Located the CUBE, the Monitor and Keyboard need to find where the printer is. I know it is there! A couple weeks back I was given a copy of "Steve Jobs & the Next Big Thing" and started reading it. Very Interesting although it was done before apple got jobs back and from what I see in other sources adapted the NeXT software to be OS-X. I would interested in hearing from the group to how accurate they consider this book. I am also interested an any suggestions how I handle the initial power up... this whole machine is a new thing to me as Macs and NeXT are systems I never used back in the 'the day' Any advice on or off list appreciated! After I get it running, assuming it will I will set it in the display area and will need to look for some colorful advertising stuff to help decorate the display. If is totally roached and will not fire up then I guess it becomes a static display ( until some other parts units show up?) Thanks Ed# _www.smecc,org_ (http://www.smecc,org) From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Tue Oct 4 06:12:27 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 14:12:27 +0300 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> <201610040319.u943JkZf085365@ultimate.com> Message-ID: Motorola System V/68 Release 2 versions have been distributed as obj and source. They will run on MVME115 and MVME121. Both are using 68010 and 68451 MMU On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > > > On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:19 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > > > > I have an ancient Unix system made by ProComp in Switzerland that has a > > 68000 CPU, 4 MB RAM and that 68451 MMU. Unfortunately, I didn't get a > hard disk > > or system media for this oldtimer :( It ran a port of 7th edition Unix > as well > > as some System III variant. Would surely be nice to see Linux running on > > that machine ;) > > Please don't defile it like that. From isking at uw.edu Tue Oct 4 09:47:43 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 07:47:43 -0700 Subject: uVAX system (mostly) that Ian King was interested in In-Reply-To: <57F30524.4050005@pico-systems.com> References: <57F30524.4050005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/02/2016 08:23 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > Back in July we corresponded about a uVAX system that was less than > complete that you had expressed interest in. I sent a private email, but > didn't get a response. So, I'm trying again here. > > What I have is the lower part of cabinet, power supply and main board, no > mezzanine boards for DV-31ETA-A-A01 VaxStation 3100. The unit is 16 Lbs, > and 20 x 15 x 6" without a box. I'd guess it would be at least 20 Lbs when > boxed up. > > Are you still interested, Ian? > > (Sorry to have to send this to the whole list...) > > Jon > > Sorry for the delay in responding, Jon - I'm launching a spaceship this week. :-) (See www.blueorigin.com.) I'll reply privately. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From shaunhalstead at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 10:02:13 2016 From: shaunhalstead at gmail.com (Shaun Halstead) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 10:02:13 -0500 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Hi All > > I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. > > It has the portable (weighs a ton) reader with it. > > On trying it out. I found the results were awful. > A good clean of the light path and removal of some disintegrating foam > improved things no end. > That left two issues: > > 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. > This is not at all unusual. I do have a stock of microfilm reader lenses, if we can figure out who actually built the reader and which lens it takes. Is there a name or model on the lens or reader (other than DEC)? > > 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff and > clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. > Thin plastic is really unusual here because of the tendency to melt under the heat of the lamp. > > I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. > Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. This is exactly what my company does (and my previous, now defunct, employer as well). I have dedicated microfiche and microfilm scanners. The problem I ran into when trying to scan my DEC microfiche collection was that the fiche themselves were of very poor quality. Badly scratched and scuffed, and poor quality duplicates. Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. He's not kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a low end, heavily used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the lowest end. Flatbed photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but also slower. However, with some scripting and tools like the ImageMagick library, you can scan an entire fiche in one pass, then slice up the image into individual pages accordingly. --Shaun Halstead MSI Tech Services, LLC From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 10:10:10 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: uVAX system (mostly) that Ian King was interested in In-Reply-To: References: <57F30524.4050005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2016, Ian S. King wrote: >> Sorry for the delay in responding, Jon - I'm launching a spaceship this > week. :-) (See www.blueorigin.com.) I'll reply privately. > Best. Excuse. Ever. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 4 10:28:31 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 16:28:31 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> On 04/10/2016 16:02, Shaun Halstead wrote: > On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. >> >> It has the portable (weighs a ton) reader with it. >> >> On trying it out. I found the results were awful. >> A good clean of the light path and removal of some disintegrating foam >> improved things no end. >> That left two issues: >> >> 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. >> > This is not at all unusual. I do have a stock of microfilm reader > lenses, if we can figure out who actually built the reader and which lens > it takes. Is there a name or model on the lens or reader (other than DEC)? > > >> 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff and >> clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. >> > Thin plastic is really unusual here because of the tendency to melt under > the heat of the lamp. > > >> I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. >> Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. > > This is exactly what my company does (and my previous, now defunct, > employer as well). I have dedicated microfiche and microfilm scanners. > The problem I ran into when trying to scan my DEC microfiche collection was > that the fiche themselves were of very poor quality. Badly scratched and > scuffed, and poor quality duplicates. > > Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. He's not > kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a low end, heavily > used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the lowest end. Flatbed > photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but also slower. However, > with some scripting and tools like the ImageMagick library, you can scan an > entire fiche in one pass, then slice up the image into individual pages > accordingly. > > --Shaun Halstead > MSI Tech Services, LLC Thank you for your kind reply Reader is: MICROFICHE READER MODEL SC01-E SERIAL NO. 4573 MAGNIFICATION 42x VISIDYNE INC BURLINGTON MA USA UK model (yes I'm in the UK) 230 VOLTS AC 50/60Hz .75 AMPS Only Hi res setting works. Using my home made but clean fiche holder the few fiches I looked at seemed OK. When adjusted for sharp focus the text was clear but a bit small. -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 4 10:49:01 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2016 10:49:01 -0500 Subject: uVAX system (mostly) that Ian King was interested in In-Reply-To: References: <57F30524.4050005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <57F3CF6D.6020905@pico-systems.com> On 10/04/2016 09:47 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > > Sorry for the delay in responding, Jon - I'm launching a spaceship this > week. :-) (See www.blueorigin.com.) I'll reply privately. > Oh WELL! That's SERIOUS business, then! The uVax is just play stuff. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 10:53:03 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 16:53:03 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> > > Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. > > He's not kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a > > low end, heavily used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the > > lowest end. Flatbed photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but > > also slower. However, with some scripting and tools like the > > ImageMagick library, you can scan an entire fiche in one pass, then > > slice up the image into individual pages accordingly. > > Rod, I have an old(ish) scanner that will scan negatives. Not sure if it will scan you Fiche. How big are they? Dave Wade Manchester UK > > --Shaun Halstead > > MSI Tech Services, LLC > > Thank you for your kind reply > Reader is: > MICROFICHE READER MODEL SC01-E > SERIAL NO. 4573 > MAGNIFICATION 42x > VISIDYNE INC BURLINGTON MA USA > > UK model (yes I'm in the UK) > > 230 VOLTS AC 50/60Hz .75 AMPS > > Only Hi res setting works. > Using my home made but clean fiche holder the few fiches I looked at > seemed OK. > When adjusted for sharp focus the text was clear but a bit small. > > > > -- > PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i > Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 11:16:03 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 09:16:03 -0700 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a270e28-5849-b5ab-a0a1-13ce14c4a2e7@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/16 8:02 AM, Shaun Halstead wrote: >> I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. >> Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. > > > This is exactly what my company does (and my previous, now defunct, > employer as well). I have dedicated microfiche and microfilm scanners. > The problem I ran into when trying to scan my DEC microfiche collection was > that the fiche themselves were of very poor quality. Badly scratched and > scuffed, and poor quality duplicates. > > Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. He's not > kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a low end, heavily > used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the lowest end. Flatbed > photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but also slower. However, > with some scripting and tools like the ImageMagick library, you can scan an > entire fiche in one pass, then slice up the image into individual pages > accordingly. > many people have jousted at this particular windmill this is a huge time-consuming project I have literally thousands of sheets of DEC fiche from multiple sources scanning at that kind of volume doesn't scale. you have to clean an qc every sheet even with a production scanner. It took me most of a day to do the little bit of xxdp fiche a couple of weeks ago on a manual positioning Canon microfilm/microfiche scanner at CHM I just bought another high-end scanner, which isn't running yet. It uses glass carriers for each sheet and I have about 6 carriers. I was hoping it could handle IBM punched-card sized fiche, but I've not been able to find a carrier that big. I have a rather large backlog of those as well. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 4 11:38:27 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 17:38:27 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <1a270e28-5849-b5ab-a0a1-13ce14c4a2e7@bitsavers.org> References: <1a270e28-5849-b5ab-a0a1-13ce14c4a2e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <988341e0-7f9f-cd93-0762-996baf9837cf@btinternet.com> On 04/10/2016 17:16, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/4/16 8:02 AM, Shaun Halstead wrote: > >>> I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. >>> Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. >> >> This is exactly what my company does (and my previous, now defunct, >> employer as well). I have dedicated microfiche and microfilm scanners. >> The problem I ran into when trying to scan my DEC microfiche collection was >> that the fiche themselves were of very poor quality. Badly scratched and >> scuffed, and poor quality duplicates. >> >> Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. He's not >> kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a low end, heavily >> used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the lowest end. Flatbed >> photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but also slower. However, >> with some scripting and tools like the ImageMagick library, you can scan an >> entire fiche in one pass, then slice up the image into individual pages >> accordingly. >> > many people have jousted at this particular windmill > this is a huge time-consuming project > > I have literally thousands of sheets of DEC fiche from multiple sources > > scanning at that kind of volume doesn't scale. you have to clean an qc every sheet > even with a production scanner. It took me most of a day to do the little bit of xxdp > fiche a couple of weeks ago on a manual positioning Canon microfilm/microfiche scanner > at CHM > > I just bought another high-end scanner, which isn't running yet. It uses glass carriers > for each sheet and I have about 6 carriers. > > I was hoping it could handle IBM punched-card sized fiche, but I've not been able to > find a carrier that big. I have a rather large backlog of those as well. > > > Not a surprise. I have a box; fiche size front and about two feet deep marked xxdp. Perhaps we could avoid duplication of effort by knowing whats already been scanned. The other issue is access to the scanned data. I'm sure there are hardware hounds out there who could come up with cost effective way to scan DEC 52x fiches. Rod -- *PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now* From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 12:25:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 10:25:29 -0700 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <988341e0-7f9f-cd93-0762-996baf9837cf@btinternet.com> References: <1a270e28-5849-b5ab-a0a1-13ce14c4a2e7@bitsavers.org> <988341e0-7f9f-cd93-0762-996baf9837cf@btinternet.com> Message-ID: If you look in the cctlk archives there was work done on this in the recent past http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-11-diagnostic-database seems to be a pointer to many sources On 10/4/16 9:38 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 04/10/2016 17:16, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 10/4/16 8:02 AM, Shaun Halstead wrote: >> >>>> I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. >>>> Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. >>> >>> This is exactly what my company does (and my previous, now defunct, >>> employer as well). I have dedicated microfiche and microfilm scanners. >>> The problem I ran into when trying to scan my DEC microfiche collection was >>> that the fiche themselves were of very poor quality. Badly scratched and >>> scuffed, and poor quality duplicates. >>> >>> Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. He's not >>> kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a low end, heavily >>> used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the lowest end. Flatbed >>> photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but also slower. However, >>> with some scripting and tools like the ImageMagick library, you can scan an >>> entire fiche in one pass, then slice up the image into individual pages >>> accordingly. >>> >> many people have jousted at this particular windmill >> this is a huge time-consuming project >> >> I have literally thousands of sheets of DEC fiche from multiple sources >> >> scanning at that kind of volume doesn't scale. you have to clean an qc every sheet >> even with a production scanner. It took me most of a day to do the little bit of xxdp >> fiche a couple of weeks ago on a manual positioning Canon microfilm/microfiche scanner >> at CHM >> >> I just bought another high-end scanner, which isn't running yet. It uses glass carriers >> for each sheet and I have about 6 carriers. >> >> I was hoping it could handle IBM punched-card sized fiche, but I've not been able to >> find a carrier that big. I have a rather large backlog of those as well. >> >> >> > Not a surprise. > I have a box; fiche size front and about two feet deep marked xxdp. > Perhaps we could avoid duplication of effort by knowing whats already been scanned. > > The other issue is access to the scanned data. > > I'm sure there are hardware hounds out there who could come up with cost effective way to scan DEC 52x fiches. > > Rod > > From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Oct 5 03:16:24 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:16:24 +0200 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02995689-9f83-6191-3587-da1ea12a6e75@t-online.de> Hi, you surely found it on the web already, but if not: Two years ago I build an own scanning rig and scanned 50000+ pages of XXDP listings. The problem of enhancing very bad fiches is also addressed with an expensive "Filter Chain". http://retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches Joerg Am 04.10.2016 um 06:49 schrieb Rod Smallwood: > Hi All > > I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. > > It has the portable (weighs a ton) reader with it. > > On trying it out. I found the results were awful. > A good clean of the light path and removal of some disintegrating foam > improved things no end. > That left two issues: > > 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. > > 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff > and clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. > > I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. > Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. > > Rod > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:44:51 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 16:44:51 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> References: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > the will probably be 68000 > > unisoft kernels i've used weren't 010 with the 451 > > i'll have to dig around for what bits of the 451 kernel i still > have around. unisoft kept the mmu parts pretty well isolated since > the did so many hw ports I'd be interested in looking over something along these lines. I have some 80s hardware that we put a 68000 + 68451 on, but it would easily take a 68010. It was going to be a massive wad of async ports and some sort of WAN port (X.25 was one technique). It never made it out the door as a product, but I have the prototypes in the attic. Dual Z8530 serial cards (4 ports) with a Motorola DMA engine or 8-port PIO serial cards on top of a pedestrian 68000+68451 design w/2MB of 41256 DRAM and an early Sony 3.5" floppy drive - designed 1983 to 1984 ISTR. We used a Perkin-Elmer 7300 Uniplus box w/System III as our software design workstation because it was an inexpensive way to get 4 developers cranking out C code to 68000 object code to link into our own format for the hardware target. I still have the P-E 7300... tried to sell it at Hamfests 20 years ago and nobody was remotely interested. We never finished the app for this thing, but I always wanted to see about tossing UNIX on it - plenty of serial ports, and at least a few hundred KB of removable storage... just have to figure out what to put on it in the way of a mass storage device - perhaps hacking one of the DMA serial cards to add a 5380 SCSI chip in place of a serial chip. So... short form - I'd love to read over some 68K UNIX code to see what it would take to make it run on orphan hardware from 30 years ago. -ethan From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:02:10 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 18:02:10 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? Message-ID: From: Al Kossow > > the will probably be 68000 > > unisoft kernels i've used weren't 010 with the 451 > Dumb question...did the '451 have a mechanism to work around the instruction restart issue in the 68000? Or was there some other way that was handled? > i'll have to dig around for what bits of the 451 kernel i still > have around. unisoft kept the mmu parts pretty well isolated since > the did so many hw ports I'd be grateful. KJ From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:09:45 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 18:09:45 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? Message-ID: From: "Mike Stein" > >Did Unisoft distribution tapes normally include sources? > Good question. I don't recall that they did, but it's been a frighteningly lot of years since I've culled through a Unisoft distro tape. KJ From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:11:56 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 18:11:56 -0400 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? Message-ID: From: Phil Budne > >A quick google search found: > No source trees. But...thanks? KJ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 17:14:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 15:14:23 -0700 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/4/16 3:02 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > Dumb question...did the '451 have a mechanism to work around the > instruction restart issue in the 68000? no. the 68451 is a segmented mmu, so you wouldn't use it for demand paging. the normal way you use it in unix is setting up segents for text, data, and bss From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:19:58 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 18:19:58 -0400 Subject: To infinity and beyond: Re: uVAX system (mostly) that Ian King was interested in Message-ID: From: "Ian S. King" > Sorry for the delay in responding, Jon - I'm launching a spaceship this > week. :-) May I once in my life be able to say this and not be engaged in metaphor. :-) pssst...If Blue Origin is looking for a CSO/CISO, I'm in. KJ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Oct 4 19:25:27 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 17:25:27 -0700 Subject: Wanted: IBM 5324 Monitor Message-ID: <00d001d21e9e$f9ca3390$ed5e9ab0$@net> Hello Everyone, I was wondering if anyone out on the list has (or knows of someone who has) an IBM 5324 monitor? This would be the monitor that goes with the IBM 5324 system (the tower version of the 5322/System 23/DataMaster). I have spare parts from a 5322 including a working display unit which I can transplant into a nonworking external monitor case. However, my preference would be for a clean/working monitor > non-working but clean monitor > working beat up monitor > beggars can't be choosers! Thanks. -Ali From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 4 20:32:38 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2016 20:32:38 -0500 Subject: To infinity and beyond: Re: uVAX system (mostly) that Ian King was interested in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57F45836.7040207@pico-systems.com> On 10/04/2016 05:19 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: "Ian S. King" >> Sorry for the delay in responding, Jon - I'm launching a spaceship this >> week. :-) > May I once in my life be able to say this and not be engaged in metaphor. :-) > > pssst...If Blue Origin is looking for a CSO/CISO, I'm in. > > KJ > Well, I worked for NASA in 1972-73, and ran TV cameras from in the blockhouse when we launched MTS-D, a satellite that collected micrometeoroid data for a year or so. (It had big styrofoam "wings" with aluminum foil on them, the micrometeoroids punched through the two sheets leaving a plasma that momentarily shorted them out.) The guys who were supposed to close the blast door broke the handle off, so they couldn't get the door fully closed, and we got to really HEAR the rocket take off. So, I did actually get to participate in launching a rocket. Everything there was insanely cool! Jon From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 21:13:12 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 22:13:12 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 Message-ID: A buddy located this just in time, it was out at a scrapyard and we are about to get hit with a hurricane over here in florida. Picked up a commodore amiga 2000 with the keyboard, no mouse or monitor. I hooked it up to a tv via composite and get to the boot screen. It appears to have a scsi hard drive controller in it. I figured this would be the place to ask... It looks as if PC compatibility boards can be added to the machine, boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and some memory on a board, capable of running MS DOS. IF i were to install such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of things have? I just got started with the machine, im still trying to get it to boot up, but if it would be pretty capable with dos then i will keep an eye out for one of the cards. any suggestions to get started would be appreciated. --Devin From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 21:25:36 2016 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:25:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Unexpected Apple Lisa display - this is what it is In-Reply-To: <2u1krcqie3llifhlghgc41wb.1475130063146@email.android.com> References: <2u1krcqie3llifhlghgc41wb.1475130063146@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1113531188.4513535.1475634336843@mail.yahoo.com> This Lisa is a MacXL. It first asks where to boot from:http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa3.jpg If hard drive is selected, then happy Mac: http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa4.jpg Then the weird intermediate screen: http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa.jpg You get a Mac if you click on FINDER: http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa5.jpg Poor quality pics, I know. -------- Original message -------- > From: steven stengel > > What is this unusual Apple Lisa display - some sort of diagnostics? > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa.jpg From ethan at 757.org Tue Oct 4 21:35:51 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 22:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A buddy located this just in time, it was out at a scrapyard and we are > about to get hit with a hurricane over here in florida. Picked up a > commodore amiga 2000 with the keyboard, no mouse or monitor. I hooked it up > to a tv via composite and get to the boot screen. It appears to have a scsi > hard drive controller in it. > I figured this would be the place to ask... It looks as if PC compatibility > boards can be added to the machine, boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and > some memory on a board, capable of running MS DOS. IF i were to install > such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of things > have? I think the generic bridgecard might give you something like CGA, but the way the bizzare Amiga 2000 was created the bridge card (that is a PC on a board) sits in like the middle where there is a Zorro Slot and an ISA slot. So that bridge card then enables/drives all of the ISA slots, so you then add your VGA card into an ISA slot. Then connect a good monitor (Anything VGA is good compared to staring at a 15khz TV :-) and then you've got this crazy contraption on your desk with one keyboard, one computer that technically has a 2nd computer in it hooked to two monitors :-) This is just me, but the spirit of having an Amiga 2000 (which don't get me wrong, is cool, I gave mine away and slightly regret it!) is running Amiga software. I'd go for a NewTek Toaster before going for the bridgecard. There is also software (I don't think hardware is involved) to run Mac software on Amigas as well. SCSI card is a great start, none of mine ever had those. -- Ethan O'Toole From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 21:53:09 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 22:53:09 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The toaster looks interesting but i have a stockpile of sgi gear that keeps me busy in the whole CG department. the video toaster, interesting hardware, but not something practical i would end up using much...Thanks for the info. if i can just cram any old vga card in there then that is what i will do. i will admit it looks horrible on a tv screen, but im thankful i did not have to buy a commodore monitor just to see if the machine worked. --devin On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:35 PM, wrote: > A buddy located this just in time, it was out at a scrapyard and we are >> about to get hit with a hurricane over here in florida. Picked up a >> commodore amiga 2000 with the keyboard, no mouse or monitor. I hooked it >> up >> to a tv via composite and get to the boot screen. It appears to have a >> scsi >> hard drive controller in it. >> I figured this would be the place to ask... It looks as if PC >> compatibility >> boards can be added to the machine, boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and >> some memory on a board, capable of running MS DOS. IF i were to install >> such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of >> things >> have? >> > > I think the generic bridgecard might give you something like CGA, but the > way the bizzare Amiga 2000 was created the bridge card (that is a PC on a > board) sits in like the middle where there is a Zorro Slot and an ISA slot. > So that bridge card then enables/drives all of the ISA slots, so you then > add your VGA card into an ISA slot. Then connect a good monitor (Anything > VGA is good compared to staring at a 15khz TV :-) and then you've got this > crazy contraption on your desk with one keyboard, one computer that > technically has a 2nd computer in it hooked to two monitors :-) > > This is just me, but the spirit of having an Amiga 2000 (which don't get > me wrong, is cool, I gave mine away and slightly regret it!) is running > Amiga software. I'd go for a NewTek Toaster before going for the > bridgecard. There is also software (I don't think hardware is involved) to > run Mac software on Amigas as well. > > SCSI card is a great start, none of mine ever had those. > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 21:55:02 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2016, devin davison wrote: > I figured this would be the place to ask... It looks as if PC compatibility > boards can be added to the machine, boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and > some memory on a board, capable of running MS DOS. IF i were to install > such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of things > have? Depends on the board, and its bundled software. Not to be more flippant than usual, PC-DOS/MS-DOS has no graphics capability (80x25 text). But, it can launch programs that do access graphics hardware. (such as games, graphics oriented software, or Windoze) In order to get basic compatability, they probably implement the CGA capabilities that are in the PC BIOS, which goes to 640x200 B&W. If they want to, they could simulate the presence of Hercules (720x348), EGA (640x350) or VGA (640x480) hardware. If they really want, they could simulate a pseudo VGA up to whatever the hardware resolution is. From lists at sysop.ca Tue Oct 4 21:57:28 2016 From: lists at sysop.ca (Cody Swanson) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 20:57:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC 3000 model 400 memory Message-ID: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> A generous list member gifted me a DEC 3000 model 400 early alpha system. This is my first alpha and I'm excited to play around with VMS and Tru64 however he warned me that it was having some memory issues when he retired it several years ago. It does indeed appear to have some bad ram. I'm wondering if anyone on the list has memory modules they'd be willing to part with. From isking at uw.edu Tue Oct 4 22:28:04 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 20:28:04 -0700 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/4/16 3:02 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > > Dumb question...did the '451 have a mechanism to work around the > > instruction restart issue in the 68000? > > no. the 68451 is a segmented mmu, so you wouldn't use it for demand > paging. the normal way you use it in unix is setting up segents for > text, data, and bss > > > > I remember reading the spec sheets for a MMU of that type - for the 6809! That was one versatile little processor. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 4 23:32:00 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 00:32:00 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> Since you would be using the Amiga for video it would be emulated CGA or mono. I think you can install a VGA card in an ISA slot (and you can expand all the slots to 16 bit if you solder in the header). Most people used an ISA network card to get around the more expensive Zorro Amiga boards (100+ I think). Anyway the XT and 286 Bridgeboards are not that expensive but anything faster sure is. Not sure why you would want to turn an Amiga 2000 is into a DOS machine anyway, I had a 286 Bridgeboard and currently user an XT bridgeboard in one of my A2000's just for the heck of it. Mostly I use the Amiga for gaming. -----Original Message----- From: devin davison Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 10:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 A buddy located this just in time, it was out at a scrapyard and we are about to get hit with a hurricane over here in florida. Picked up a commodore amiga 2000 with the keyboard, no mouse or monitor. I hooked it up to a tv via composite and get to the boot screen. It appears to have a scsi hard drive controller in it. I figured this would be the place to ask... It looks as if PC compatibility boards can be added to the machine, boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and some memory on a board, capable of running MS DOS. IF i were to install such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of things have? I just got started with the machine, im still trying to get it to boot up, but if it would be pretty capable with dos then i will keep an eye out for one of the cards. any suggestions to get started would be appreciated. --Devin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Oct 4 23:58:38 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 21:58:38 -0700 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> Message-ID: <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> Congratulations on rescuing the 2000! I wanted one pretty badly when I was working in an Amiga dealership in the late 1980s, but had a 1000. I still don't have a 2000, but I've scratched that itch with a 3000 that I got a couple years ago. I still have my old 1000, but haven't powered it up for a very long time. It's overdue for a cleaning-up and resurrection. > On Oct 4, 2016, at 21:32, TeoZ wrote: > > Anyway the XT and 286 Bridgeboards are not that expensive but anything faster sure is. The Bridgeboards were indeed an odd kludge. I don't remember if we actually sold any in the store I worked in, but I think we had at least one installed in an Amiga 2000 for demo purposes. I quit looking for Bridgeboards over a year ago when eBay and I started seeing other people, but at the time I had little luck finding any. I wouldn't mind having any working Bridgeboard to try out in my Amiga 3000 just for kicks, but I wouldn't expect it to be of much practical use. So if there's a hidden source of cheap XT and 286 Bridgeboards out there, I might like to acquire one. Devin would get first dibs on any that turn up, of course. I do have something vaguely Bridgeboard-esque: I have one of the SunPCi cards in my Sun Ultra 60. I think I set up DOS and NT virtual disks for it, but I haven't found any practical use for it. It's just a neat example of the wacky things that were kludged together for folks such as engineers who needed a UNIX workstation for their main job, but also needed access to a PC for things like Word. Now that I think of it, I haven't exactly found a practical use for the Sun it's installed in, either. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Oct 5 00:08:49 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 01:08:49 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 Message-ID: <3097ce.27da4ecf.4525e4e1@aol.com> have a unit with toaster but we need a keyboard. it sets flat not a tower. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) fills history in 2 areas we cover - computers and video production In a message dated 10/4/2016 9:58:46 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, nf6x at nf6x.net writes: Congratulations on rescuing the 2000! I wanted one pretty badly when I was working in an Amiga dealership in the late 1980s, but had a 1000. I still don't have a 2000, but I've scratched that itch with a 3000 that I got a couple years ago. I still have my old 1000, but haven't powered it up for a very long time. It's overdue for a cleaning-up and resurrection. > On Oct 4, 2016, at 21:32, TeoZ wrote: > > Anyway the XT and 286 Bridgeboards are not that expensive but anything faster sure is. The Bridgeboards were indeed an odd kludge. I don't remember if we actually sold any in the store I worked in, but I think we had at least one installed in an Amiga 2000 for demo purposes. I quit looking for Bridgeboards over a year ago when eBay and I started seeing other people, but at the time I had little luck finding any. I wouldn't mind having any working Bridgeboard to try out in my Amiga 3000 just for kicks, but I wouldn't expect it to be of much practical use. So if there's a hidden source of cheap XT and 286 Bridgeboards out there, I might like to acquire one. Devin would get first dibs on any that turn up, of course. I do have something vaguely Bridgeboard-esque: I have one of the SunPCi cards in my Sun Ultra 60. I think I set up DOS and NT virtual disks for it, but I haven't found any practical use for it. It's just a neat example of the wacky things that were kludged together for folks such as engineers who needed a UNIX workstation for their main job, but also needed access to a PC for things like Word. Now that I think of it, I haven't exactly found a practical use for the Sun it's installed in, either. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 5 00:48:28 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 06:48:28 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> On 04/10/2016 16:53, Dave Wade wrote: >>> Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. >>> He's not kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a >>> low end, heavily used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the >>> lowest end. Flatbed photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but >>> also slower. However, with some scripting and tools like the >>> ImageMagick library, you can scan an entire fiche in one pass, then >>> slice up the image into individual pages accordingly. >>> > > Rod, > I have an old(ish) scanner that will scan negatives. Not sure if it will scan you Fiche. How big are they? > Dave Wade > Manchester > UK > > >>> --Shaun Halstead >>> MSI Tech Services, LLC >> Thank you for your kind reply >> Reader is: >> MICROFICHE READER MODEL SC01-E >> SERIAL NO. 4573 >> MAGNIFICATION 42x >> VISIDYNE INC BURLINGTON MA USA >> >> UK model (yes I'm in the UK) >> >> 230 VOLTS AC 50/60Hz .75 AMPS >> >> Only Hi res setting works. >> Using my home made but clean fiche holder the few fiches I looked at >> seemed OK. >> When adjusted for sharp focus the text was clear but a bit small. >> >> >> >> -- >> PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i >> Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now > I have been doing some searching on the web. There seem to be some Epson (Perfection range) that could scan fiche Epson Perfection V800 Photo A4 Flatbed Scanner * Scans Everything - slides, film, medium format & print * Dual Lens System - swaps between 6400dpi (for slides and film) and 4800dpi (for photos) * Removes Imperfections - digital ICE Technologies cleans-up old film and photos * Dynamic Range - accuratly reproduce tonal range and gradation of the original * Quick Start - warms-up in less than one second Suitable for DEC 52x Fiche Scanning ? Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 5 01:14:09 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 07:14:09 +0100 Subject: DEC 3000 model 400 memory In-Reply-To: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> References: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: <051101d21ecf$afd79350$0f86b9f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cody > Swanson > Sent: 05 October 2016 03:57 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DEC 3000 model 400 memory > > A generous list member gifted me a DEC 3000 model 400 early alpha system. > This is my first alpha and I'm excited to play around with VMS and Tru64 > however he warned me that it was having some memory issues when he > retired it several years ago. It does indeed appear to have some bad ram. I'm > wondering if anyone on the list has memory modules they'd be willing to part > with. Someone in France was offering some on Nekochan recently. Regards Rob From jason at smbfc.net Wed Oct 5 01:39:52 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 23:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC 3000 model 400 memory In-Reply-To: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> References: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2016, Cody Swanson wrote: > A generous list member gifted me a DEC 3000 model 400 early alpha system. This is my first alpha and I'm excited to play around with VMS and Tru64 however he warned me that it was having some memory issues when he retired it several years ago. It does indeed appear to have some bad ram. I'm wondering if anyone on the list has memory modules they'd be willing to part with. > Assuming this DEC 3000 is the model with the memory daughter boards populated with endless rows of (expensive and hard to find) proprietary 100 pin SIMMs,yes I have some extra memory and daughter boards. Though wikipedia tells me that the 400 model only has two such daughter boards, for a total of 8 sticks. For comparison, inside my 3000 700: http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/DEC3000_inside.jpg A couple of fully populated daughter boards: http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/DEC3000_mem.jpg I have to grab them from the garage, but I'm pretty sure I have a couple fully populated daughter boards ready to go, though I don't remember the capacty of the sticks that are in there. I do remember, that the way the SIMMs are banked is counter-intuitive, so be sure to read the docs as you swap memory round. Anyway, I'm happy to send them to you for testing. If they solve your problem, we can work something out. --Jason From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 03:13:14 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:13:14 -0600 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Epson Perfection V800 Photo A4 Flatbed Scanner > * Dual Lens System - swaps between 6400dpi (for slides and film) and > 4800dpi (for photos) > Suitable for DEC 52x Fiche Scanning ? If you wanted to scan 52x fiche at an effective resolution of 200dpi ("fine" fax quality, which isn't actually "fine" IMHO), you need 10400 dpi. 6400 dpi gets you effective 123 dpi, which might not be completely useless, but certainly wouldn't be very good. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 03:15:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:15:50 -0600 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > no. the 68451 is a segmented mmu, so you wouldn't use it for demand > paging. the normal way you use it in unix is setting up segents for > text, data, and bss On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I remember reading the spec sheets for a MMU of that type - for the 6809! > That was one versatile little processor. I've never heard of a segmented MMU for the 6809. The MC6829 MMU was paged, using 2KB pages. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 03:22:53 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 02:22:53 -0600 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > Dumb question...did the '451 have a mechanism to work around the > instruction restart issue in the 68000? Or was there some other way > that was handled? The MC68451 was just an MMU. The bus fault problem of the MC68000 can't really be solved by an MMU; solving it in the general case requires a LOT of external logic, and/or a second MC68000. The Apple Lisa solved it in a specialized way by writing the software to never perform accesses from which bus fault recovery might be needed, except using a specific instruction which yielded predictable bus fault results. The MC68010/012, MC68020, and MC68030 didn't support instruction restart, but they supported instruction continuation, by having a bus fault or address error dump a lot of internal processor state onto the stack (known lovingly as the "stack puke"), and having the RTE instruction reload it. IIRC, the MC68040 and MC68060 supported instruction restart. I once wrote an address error handler for the MC68020 so that I could execute misaligned code. Very very slowly. From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Oct 5 03:46:01 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 03:46:01 -0500 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161005084601.GA28026@lonesome.com> On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 02:22:53AM -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > I once wrote an address error handler for the MC68020 so that I could > execute misaligned code. Very very slowly. This cannot possibly be sufficiently funny except to anyone who was in the industry at the time. mcl From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 5 06:09:08 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 12:09:08 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <02995689-9f83-6191-3587-da1ea12a6e75@t-online.de> References: <02995689-9f83-6191-3587-da1ea12a6e75@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 05/10/2016 09:16, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hi, > > you surely found it on the web already, but if not: > Two years ago I build an own scanning rig and scanned 50000+ pages of > XXDP listings. > The problem of enhancing very bad fiches is also addressed with an > expensive "Filter Chain". > > http://retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches > > Joerg > > Am 04.10.2016 um 06:49 schrieb Rod Smallwood: >> Hi All >> >> I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. >> >> It has the portable (weighs a ton) reader with it. >> >> On trying it out. I found the results were awful. >> A good clean of the light path and removal of some disintegrating >> foam improved things no end. >> That left two issues: >> >> 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. >> >> 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff >> and clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. >> >> I'd like to work to-wards scanning all of the library into a system. >> Anybody know anything about fiche scanners. >> >> Rod >> > Thanks Joerg Very interesting - My camera is a Nikon D50 and doing that to it would not do it any good! My first stage is to over come the fact that the fiches are 52x and the reader is 42x. Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 5 06:22:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 12:22:23 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 05/10/2016 09:13, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:48 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: >> Epson Perfection V800 Photo A4 Flatbed Scanner >> * Dual Lens System - swaps between 6400dpi (for slides and film) and >> 4800dpi (for photos) >> Suitable for DEC 52x Fiche Scanning ? > If you wanted to scan 52x fiche at an effective resolution of 200dpi > ("fine" fax quality, which isn't actually "fine" IMHO), you need 10400 > dpi. 6400 dpi gets you effective 123 dpi, which might not be > completely useless, but certainly wouldn't be very good. Ah.. Good some numbers to work to. It helps identify two methods: Scan fiche as is: Magnify and photograph. In fact modern cameras are like a hi res TV system. Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 5 07:43:49 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 05:43:49 -0700 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <792c09a9-203a-db1f-4100-fc4ff5b1de06@jwsss.com> This is the one I have. It may be overkill because I think it goes to 8 x 10 transparency. A 5x7 format scanner will work just as well for fiche. If you plan to do aperture cards, you will need a longer dimension that 7" to cover that. The Epson 4990 apparently has that. i looked forward and saw Jorg's posting as well. If you find a good fiche reader that may work. Your current reader may work if you can get the image quality up enough. Here is one fiche I scanned, a WW2 unit war diary. It was done with the V800 scanner you mention and my method of a previous post. I think the results are pretty good. thanks Jim http://vpb208.org/diary/fiche1/page_01.htm On 10/4/2016 10:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 04/10/2016 16:53, Dave Wade wrote: >>>> Jim mentioned that dedicated microfilm scanners are expensive. >>>> He's not kidding. Used machines tend to start around $5k USD for a >>>> low end, heavily used scanner. New machines are generally $30k at the >>>> lowest end. Flatbed photographic film scanners are much cheaper, but >>>> also slower. However, with some scripting and tools like the >>>> ImageMagick library, you can scan an entire fiche in one pass, then >>>> slice up the image into individual pages accordingly. >>>> >> >> Rod, >> I have an old(ish) scanner that will scan negatives. Not sure if it >> will scan you Fiche. How big are they? >> Dave Wade >> Manchester >> UK >> >> >>>> --Shaun Halstead >>>> MSI Tech Services, LLC >>> Thank you for your kind reply >>> Reader is: >>> MICROFICHE READER MODEL SC01-E >>> SERIAL NO. 4573 >>> MAGNIFICATION 42x >>> VISIDYNE INC BURLINGTON MA USA >>> >>> UK model (yes I'm in the UK) >>> >>> 230 VOLTS AC 50/60Hz .75 AMPS >>> >>> Only Hi res setting works. >>> Using my home made but clean fiche holder the few fiches I looked at >>> seemed OK. >>> When adjusted for sharp focus the text was clear but a bit small. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i >>> Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now >> > I have been doing some searching on the web. > There seem to be some Epson (Perfection range) that could scan fiche > > Epson Perfection V800 Photo A4 Flatbed Scanner > > * Scans Everything - slides, film, medium format & print > * Dual Lens System - swaps between 6400dpi (for slides and film) and > 4800dpi (for photos) > * Removes Imperfections - digital ICE Technologies cleans-up old film > and photos > * Dynamic Range - accuratly reproduce tonal range and gradation of the > original > * Quick Start - warms-up in less than one second > > Suitable for DEC 52x Fiche Scanning ? > > Rod > > -- Note change in email address. Please use reply-to address. TWC is changing their email and this may change again reply to is jwsmail at jwsss.com From applecorey at optonline.net Wed Oct 5 08:33:57 2016 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 09:33:57 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival West 2016 Gaming Panel 1080p with perfect audio Message-ID: <57D091DA-1AB2-43C0-AB8A-F847918D7984@optonline.net> https://youtu.be/bS_qGy3Ei3s Finally got around to converting this down from 4k 100mbps to 1080p and uploaded it to youtube. Enjoy, Erik Kline did a great job moderating the panel. Cheers, Corey From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Oct 5 08:47:14 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 15:47:14 +0200 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39bda488-e96c-5890-56b5-8bda365cc6e6@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-04 06:49, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi All > I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. Just a stupid question, as we are on the microfiche again ;-) Is there no "modern" format of TIFF or similar, which could save the whole microfiche as one picture? Would save all the effort of cutting, positioning of the pages. And, I know of some fiches, which have drawings on them, which go bigger than the standard page ... From ethan at 757.org Wed Oct 5 09:29:12 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > Congratulations on rescuing the 2000! I wanted one pretty badly when I > was working in an Amiga dealership in the late 1980s, but had a 1000. I > still don't have a 2000, but I've scratched that itch with a 3000 that I > got a couple years ago. I still have my old 1000, but haven't powered it > up for a very long time. It's overdue for a cleaning-up and > resurrection. All you Amiga heads watch out for those motherboard batteries! Especially on the A3000! A3000s are probably going to be very rare due to all the destroyed motherboards (Someone should reproduce one with sockets for the original chips.) - Ethan -- Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 5 10:05:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 08:05:02 -0700 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <3b593a0f-354b-addb-bb09-17a2fb8c1473@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/16 10:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have been doing some searching on the web. > There seem to be some Epson (Perfection range) that could scan fiche > How many lifetimes do you have allocated for the project? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 5 10:08:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 08:08:41 -0700 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <39bda488-e96c-5890-56b5-8bda365cc6e6@e-bbes.com> References: <39bda488-e96c-5890-56b5-8bda365cc6e6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 10/5/16 6:47 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Is there no "modern" format of TIFF or similar, which could save the whole microfiche as one picture? > There are very few imaging programs that can handle an image that large. You run into this with scans of blueprints. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 5 10:09:42 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 08:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: from "ethan@757.org" at "Oct 5, 16 10:29:12 am" Message-ID: <201610051509.u95F9g4b25559182@floodgap.com> > > Congratulations on rescuing the 2000! I wanted one pretty badly when I > > was working in an Amiga dealership in the late 1980s, but had a 1000. I > > still don't have a 2000, but I've scratched that itch with a 3000 that I > > got a couple years ago. I still have my old 1000, but haven't powered it > > up for a very long time. It's overdue for a cleaning-up and > > resurrection. > > All you Amiga heads watch out for those motherboard batteries! Especially > on the A3000! A3000s are probably going to be very rare due to all the > destroyed motherboards (Someone should reproduce one with sockets for the > original chips.) I clipped out the battery on my A3000 the first day I got it, and replaced the A4000T's at the same time. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The E-mail Signature Who Loved Me ------------------------------ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Oct 5 10:16:12 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 08:16:12 -0700 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> > On Oct 5, 2016, at 07:29, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > All you Amiga heads watch out for those motherboard batteries! Especially on the A3000! A3000s are probably going to be very rare due to all the destroyed motherboards (Someone should reproduce one with sockets for the original chips.) Quite true! My A3000's motherboard was damaged by battery leakage, but luckily was repairable. I replaced the original battery with a remote battery holder to get the new battery away from the motherboard: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696269909014159360 -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 5 10:37:05 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 16:37:05 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: <3b593a0f-354b-addb-bb09-17a2fb8c1473@bitsavers.org> References: <6de61280-36e2-0265-d4a2-45b1c42755fe@btinternet.com> <2bd501d21e57$6463b610$2d2b2230$@gmail.com> <5c0410e8-684f-71a5-0636-252ca8e1a681@btinternet.com> <3b593a0f-354b-addb-bb09-17a2fb8c1473@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <968e1e8f-0ee5-6ce6-0e36-b179aed831c1@btinternet.com> On 05/10/2016 16:05, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/4/16 10:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> I have been doing some searching on the web. >> There seem to be some Epson (Perfection range) that could scan fiche >> > How many lifetimes do you have allocated for the project? > > Well its not so much scan to start with but I'd like to be able to read some fiches. A 52x fiche on a 42x reader is a bit of a strain. However pre-1989 I was involved in some work involving 8 x 10 sheets of micro filmed documents. Best answer then. Manual movement of the carrier and a foot switch to capture. Rod -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 11:15:19 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 12:15:19 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Yeah, on the note of that battery, it looks fine, but is going to be replaced asap. Ive had a couple of apple computers turn to trash over that battery going bad in there. I know it is not really practical to turn it into a dos machine, but it would be a nice setup to me. If i can find a 286 and a vga card I am all set then. That is not to say that i would use it strictly as a DOS machine, but it would be a useful feature to run a couple games or utilitys i use frequently that run on dos. Thanks for the advice, ill post back with some pictures once i get it all cleaned up and running. On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > On Oct 5, 2016, at 07:29, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > > > All you Amiga heads watch out for those motherboard batteries! > Especially on the A3000! A3000s are probably going to be very rare due to > all the destroyed motherboards (Someone should reproduce one with sockets > for the original chips.) > > Quite true! My A3000's motherboard was damaged by battery leakage, but > luckily was repairable. I replaced the original battery with a remote > battery holder to get the new battery away from the motherboard: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696269909014159360 > > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 12:10:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: <39bda488-e96c-5890-56b5-8bda365cc6e6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > There are very few imaging programs that can handle an image that large. > You run into this with scans of blueprints. There you have TWO size issues. The original may have enormous physical dimensions. A well chosen image format shouldn't have much problem with file size, since the blueprint ia all B&W single bit, made up of line segments and text. An uncompressed bitmap would be ridiculously large, but some format to store the text and positions, and the line segments should be able to bring it down to very manageable size. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 5 12:21:16 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 13:21:16 -0400 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: <39bda488-e96c-5890-56b5-8bda365cc6e6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <8D9B1578-0A21-40AD-BA40-A4858376808F@comcast.net> > On Oct 5, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote: >> There are very few imaging programs that can handle an image that large. >> You run into this with scans of blueprints. > > There you have TWO size issues. The original may have enormous physical dimensions. > > A well chosen image format shouldn't have much problem with file size, since the blueprint ia all B&W single bit, made up of line segments and text. An uncompressed bitmap would be ridiculously large, but some format to store the text and positions, and the line segments should be able to bring it down to very manageable size. That's true, but Al was talking about programs processing those images. While the file may be compressed, when opened and read into memory the full uncompressed image is generated. And it might well be a byte per pixel even for B&W images, because that makes the code simpler and much faster. That said, images in the 100 megapixel range are not much trouble for modern computers. Lots of gigapixels, that might be different. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 12:30:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, devin davison wrote: > I know it is not really practical to turn it into a dos machine, but it > would be a nice setup to me. If i can find a 286 and a vga card I am all > set then. Try for a 386, or at least 386SX. Too much "modern" software demands it. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 12:42:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 13:42:26 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, devin davison wrote: > >> I know it is not really practical to turn it into a dos machine, but it >> would be a nice setup to me. If i can find a 286 and a vga card I am all >> set then. >> > > Try for a 386, or at least 386SX. Too much "modern" software demands it. > > turning an Amiga 2000 into a DOS machine is like turning a car into a boat. you technically can do it, but then you're driving a car on the water not made for serious boating. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Oct 5 12:46:59 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:46:59 -0700 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: <0ec2467e-7b3f-fbd4-cf81-f50376e9fcc4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2016, at 1:44 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > So... short form - I'd love to read over some 68K UNIX code to see > what it would take to make it run on orphan hardware from 30 years > ago. If that?s your goal, I think NetBSD will run on 68000 & 68010 hardware with an MMU (Sun or 68451). -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Oct 5 12:50:16 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:50:16 -0700 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6571B4FA-A3B4-4748-88D6-C941F065C287@eschatologist.net> On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:13 PM, devin davison wrote: > > It looks as if PC compatibility > boards can be added to the machine, boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and > some memory on a board, capable of running MS DOS. IF i were to install > such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of things > have? Frankly, um, who cares? It?s an Amiga. You can install Amiga boards (including >) and run Amiga software and games on it. Way different than PC clones and honestly, way better, especially for the period. -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Oct 5 12:55:12 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:55:12 -0700 Subject: Unexpected Apple Lisa display - this is what it is In-Reply-To: <1113531188.4513535.1475634336843@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2u1krcqie3llifhlghgc41wb.1475130063146@email.android.com> <1113531188.4513535.1475634336843@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A Macintosh XL without the square-pixels modification! (The Lisa had a non-square aspect ratio.) Is the system actually badged as a Macintosh XL anywhere? -- Chris > On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:25 PM, steven stengel wrote: > > This Lisa is a MacXL. > > It first asks where to boot from:http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa3.jpg > > If hard drive is selected, then happy Mac: > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa4.jpg > > Then the weird intermediate screen: > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa.jpg > > You get a Mac if you click on FINDER: > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa5.jpg > > Poor quality pics, I know. > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- >> From: steven stengel > >> >> What is this unusual Apple Lisa display - some sort of diagnostics? >> >> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa.jpg > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 13:00:28 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 11:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >>> I know it is not really practical to turn it into a dos machine, but it >>> would be a nice setup to me. If i can find a 286 and a vga card I am all >>> set then. On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > turning an Amiga 2000 into a DOS machine is like turning a car into a boat. > you technically can do it, but then you're driving a car on the water not > made for serious boating. Totally impractical. But, sometimes it can be FUN! (cf. Amphicar, and the crazy guys 40 years ago who were cutting the roof off of VWs, waterproofing them and putting a propellor on the crank pulley!) From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 13:22:40 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 14:22:40 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I would by no means ignore the commodore amiga software side of things. IM pretty excited to get to mess around with workbench. That FPGA graphics card project is impressive. On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I know it is not really practical to turn it into a dos machine, but it >>>> would be a nice setup to me. If i can find a 286 and a vga card I am all >>>> set then. >>>> >>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > >> turning an Amiga 2000 into a DOS machine is like turning a car into a >> boat. >> you technically can do it, but then you're driving a car on the water not >> made for serious boating. >> > > Totally impractical. But, sometimes it can be FUN! > (cf. Amphicar, and the crazy guys 40 years ago who were cutting the roof > off of VWs, waterproofing them and putting a propellor on the crank pulley!) > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 13:22:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 14:22:15 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> <5A163E66-0AA8-4A70-BFF6-D985DE94EB04@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I know it is not really practical to turn it into a dos machine, but it >>>> would be a nice setup to me. If i can find a 286 and a vga card I am all >>>> set then. >>>> >>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > >> turning an Amiga 2000 into a DOS machine is like turning a car into a >> boat. >> you technically can do it, but then you're driving a car on the water not >> made for serious boating. >> > > Totally impractical. But, sometimes it can be FUN! > (cf. Amphicar, and the crazy guys 40 years ago who were cutting the roof > off of VWs, waterproofing them and putting a propellor on the crank pulley!) > > > Yup something like that. Illustrates my point nicely. But is that what the original poster really wants? I would think not. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Oct 5 13:35:01 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 19:35:01 +0100 Subject: Anyone in the UK wan 40 x PC Game CDROMS Win95/98 era for postage? Message-ID: Does anyone want a collection of 40 CDROMs with PC games on from around the Windows 95 and 98 era? All I want is to cover postage and save these from the bin. A paypal gift of $4.99 will cover Collect+ shipping. Please email me direct - first come first served! Regards, Mark. From lists+cctalk at loomcom.com Wed Oct 5 14:15:59 2016 From: lists+cctalk at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 14:15:59 -0500 Subject: Any updates on the 3b2 emulator? In-Reply-To: <57F33B2E.4060104@oryx.us> References: <57F33B2E.4060104@oryx.us> Message-ID: <20161005191559.GA3895@loomcom.com> * On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 12:16:30AM -0500, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Hello Seth, > > Its been a few months, and I am wondering if the 3b2 emulator project is > still moving forward, or put on the back burner for now? > > Thanks for any updates, > > Jerry Hi Jerry and the list, Unfortunately, it's been back-burnered for now. The key factor in deciding to postpone work on it is simply a lack of documentation. There was far too much guesswork involved in the emulator. If only I had some kind of description of the architecture -- even a block diagram that included interrupt sources would help -- I think I could have made it further. As it is, it almost half boots. Not bad for pure guesswork and reverse engineering from SVR3 source code, but not good enough to be usable. -Seth -- Seth Morabito seth at loomcom.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 5 14:28:27 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 14:28:27 -0500 Subject: equipment in NH Message-ID: <00cd01d21f3e$a62a9e50$f27fdaf0$@classiccmp.org> I forgot to post. the PDP/VAX/Altos stuff in NH has been claimed... J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 16:26:10 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:26:10 -0400 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <140A2DA8B616415CB2189B640F8910DA@TeoPC> <22C1809D-A331-4195-942B-EECE900F07F3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > All you Amiga heads watch out for those motherboard batteries! Especially on > the A3000! A3000s are probably going to be very rare due to all the > destroyed motherboards (Someone should reproduce one with sockets for the > original chips.) I have several motherboards in various states - many functional, one or two are probably total losses and will become parts donors. I also lost an A4000 to a leaky Varta battery - I thought I'd removed it. I was sadly wrong. I think it's repairable. The deconstruction is almost complete, then the cleaning and reconstruction can begin. And yet another one is a Commodore Colt - it _may_ be repairable, but I'm going to get some practice on a simpler repair first. Those 90s NiCd batteries have destroyed a lot of hardware. -ethan From lists at sysop.ca Wed Oct 5 21:57:40 2016 From: lists at sysop.ca (Cody Swanson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 20:57:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC 3000 model 400 memory In-Reply-To: <051101d21ecf$afd79350$0f86b9f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> <051101d21ecf$afd79350$0f86b9f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <493003145.2577.1475722660845.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> > > Someone in France was offering some on Nekochan recently. > Thanks Rob, I'll have a look. It's been a while since I've visited Nekochan (my SGI's are looking rather dusty). From lists at sysop.ca Wed Oct 5 22:26:59 2016 From: lists at sysop.ca (Cody Swanson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 21:26:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC 3000 model 400 memory In-Reply-To: References: <2110150092.2280.1475636248439.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> Message-ID: <1472113919.2602.1475724419289.JavaMail.zimbra@sysop.ca> > Assuming this DEC 3000 is the model with the memory daughter boards > populated with endless rows of (expensive and hard to find) proprietary > 100 pin SIMMs,yes I have some extra memory and daughter boards. > > Though wikipedia tells me that the 400 model only has two such daughter > boards, for a total of 8 sticks. Yes, it does have the proprietary unobtainium ram which is why I came to cctalk. :-) It has 4 long daughter boards, each with two rows of two modules. I was lucky enough to get the manuals with the system. The manuals state that the bottom rows of slots combine to form memory bank 1 and the top rows combine to form bank two. The memory test was failing after a considerable amount of time with an ECC error so I took a gamble and removed the memory from bank 2 (8x100 pin dimms) and now the machine boots to OpenVMS and appears to be stable. This has reduced the total memory to 32MB which I'd like to at least double. I gather these systems can hold up to 512MB. > For comparison, inside my 3000 700: > http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/DEC3000_inside.jpg Yours looks exactly like what the layout of my 400 looks like except I have a framebuffer card. http://www.sysop.ca/media/DEC3000/dec3000_memory.jpg > A couple of fully populated daughter boards: > http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/DEC3000_mem.jpg > > I have to grab them from the garage, but I'm pretty sure I have a couple > fully populated daughter boards ready to go, though I don't remember the > capacty of the sticks that are in there. I do remember, that the way the > SIMMs are banked is counter-intuitive, so be sure to read the > docs as you swap memory round. > > Anyway, I'm happy to send them to you for testing. If they solve your problem, > we can work something out. Excellent, thank you. I will mail you off-list. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 23:33:12 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2016 23:33:12 -0500 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 Message-ID: I don't get the lack of love here. Every good hacker knows the answer is because it can. I think it adds to the charm and shows the power of the Amiga quite well. Also it shows off the technology of a computer on a card technology.? For the architecture wars fans it also reflects that they don't need a dreaded "pee see". In any event I'm a fan of emulation and hardware emulation I think is pretty solid technology vs the software counterparts. In a demo story an Amiga employee in town said he did a demo of his Amiga 3000 tower on a tech TV show. While he was playing some music on the Amiga he started up his bridge board app and loaded Windows 3.x. Then while waiting for Windows to load switched windows to show a restore off an internal SCSI tape drive. Pretty amazing technology. Plus you could even run a dos game then see the difference in the Amiga version ?(that'd be a great VCF demo). -------- Original message --------From: Chris Hanson Date: 10/5/16 12:50 PM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:13 PM, devin davison wrote: > > It looks as if PC compatibility Frankly, um, who cares? From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 01:01:00 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 23:01:00 -0700 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > Here's a scan - and special bonus audio tracks - of a brochure and 7" > record I found on ebay recently: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/EG%26G > > "Data on a Platter" from a company called EG&G (anyone heard of them?) > describes their vinyl (as in analog audio record) data storage scheme > and how it will fit into your business. Groovy. "EG&G (anyone heard of them?)" The 'E' in "EG&G" is for Harold Eugene "Doc" Edgerton, who is famous for his pioneering work in strobe photography. He was quite a legend as a professor at MIT. From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 7 01:03:22 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 16:03:22 +1000 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33c9ffb6f50e4116dc50ae510f0514e2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Data on a Platter! From: "Jason T" Date: Fri, October 7, 2016 3:32 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Here's a scan - and special bonus audio tracks - of a brochure and 7" > record I found on ebay recently: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/EG%26G > > "Data on a Platter" from a company called EG&G (anyone heard of them?) > describes their vinyl (as in analog audio record) data storage scheme > and how it will fit into your business. There's no date anywhere but > the brochure is a great example of 60s typefaces, not to mention > language. The recording includes examples of how the data sounds if > played on a regular phonograph. Who's up for decoding it? > > -j > Wow! Grooooo-vy! And really for the (italics)now generation as it says. Surmising it was from no earlier than 1967 as the phrase 'Listen Here' could well allude to the popular (ok, awesome) jazz piece by Eddie Harris that came out in that year (it's on Youtube). It also mentions 'during later 1970 and 1971' so I'd say 1969/70 as a guess. I wonder if any of those devices still exist? Thanks for the interesting post, Steve. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 7 01:45:24 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 08:45:24 +0200 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: <33c9ffb6f50e4116dc50ae510f0514e2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20161007064523.GT10521@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Oct 07, 2016 at 01:14:06AM -0500, Jason T wrote: > > I was also going to ask if anyone knew of any other examples of > phonograph records used to store data. The only one I'm aware of is > the flexi-discs that came in early-80s computer magazines. Yes, there is a swedish band "Adolphson & Falk" which had a data-track on one of their records. It was the last track on the B side of "?ver tid och rum". They never mentioned it and likely left there as a sort of pussle. It turns out it is a program for Atari 800 [1]. Also, when I visited the Museum of Computer Games in Berlin [2], they had vinyl record with Basic. Turns out that floppies was hard to come by in the old east block and vinyl was used in some cases instead. [1] http://retro.faidros.net/af.html [2] http://www.computerspielemuseum.de/1210_Home.htm /P From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 13:31:29 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:31:29 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon Message-ID: Hi, Pictures can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/pdp11/ The system is located in Portland, Oregon. Local pick-up is preferred. Not sure if it still works. I have not tried to turn it on in years. I do not have any software of floppies for it. I'm not sure what it's worth. If you are interested in it, make me an offer. Regards, Scott From spereira1952 at comcast.net Sun Oct 9 12:07:36 2016 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 13:07:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 System available for sale in Bedford, NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3260A807-6148-4640-B1CB-C52629A054E7@comcast.net> Hello all, I have my PDP-11/23 system for sale in Bedford, NH. Please see this message thread at VCFED.ORG for my description: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54193-FS-Clean-fully-working-PDP-11-23-system I would greatly prefer local pickup, but if necessary, we can discuss what shipping to your location might cost, and how much time it might take me to get the equipment properly packaged for shipment. smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From trayres at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 12:33:58 2016 From: trayres at gmail.com (Travis Ayres) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 10:33:58 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm interested! I'm down in California and I also have no idea what it's worth, I'm new to the PDP scene. On Oct 9, 2016 10:00 AM, wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon (Scott Baker) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:31:29 -0700 > From: Scott Baker > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi, > > Pictures can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign. > ddns.net/temp/pdp11/ > > The system is located in Portland, Oregon. Local pick-up is preferred. > Not sure if it still works. I have not tried to turn it on in years. > I do not have any software of floppies for it. > I'm not sure what it's worth. If you are interested in it, make me an > offer. > > Regards, > Scott > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 > ************************************* > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 16:22:33 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 17:22:33 -0400 Subject: large Wire wrap cards Message-ID: I picked up 3 of these a while back, I am unsure of what kind of machine they go to. The plan was to use them to prototype on, but then I found some even better wire wrap boards and set these aside. I did not want to have to go through getting all the wire off of them. They are up for sale or trade if anyone is interested, I am just curious if anyone knows what they came out of. gallery : https://postimg.org/gallery/1tizoqomi/ --devin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 9 17:58:14 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 15:58:14 -0700 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-Oct-09, at 2:22 PM, devin davison wrote: > I picked up 3 of these a while back, I am unsure of what kind of machine > they go to. The plan was to use them to prototype on, but then I found some > even better wire wrap boards and set these aside. I did not want to have to > go through getting all the wire off of them. > > They are up for sale or trade if anyone is interested, I am just curious if > anyone knows what they came out of. > > gallery : > https://postimg.org/gallery/1tizoqomi/ Exactly what machine they came out of, who knows, but the two different-sized card edge connectors and the power supply pinout would suggest they are Multibus boards. e.g.: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/intel/_busSpec/9800683D_Intel_Multibus_Specification%20Jun82.pdf see page 85 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 18:16:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 16:16:06 -0700 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9336608b-376b-9cda-f1ba-17232f5c3de6@sydex.com> On 10/09/2016 03:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Exactly what machine they came out of, who knows, but the two > different-sized card edge connectors and the power supply pinout > would suggest they are Multibus boards. Agreed. --Chuck From Gary at realtimecomp.com Fri Oct 7 09:27:56 2016 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 14:27:56 +0000 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A89243AA6F1F@SERVER.RealTime.local> > The 'E' in "EG&G" is for Harold Eugene "Doc" Edgerton, who is famous > for his pioneering work in strobe photography. He was quite a legend > as a professor at MIT. I went to school with his grandson Eric, and his son Bob was my High School Physics teacher. Needless to say, we did *A LOT* of stroboscope experiments! I believe Bob went on to work for Stan Ovshinsky at Energy Conversion Devices (creator of NiMH batteries among other cool things.) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 7 09:59:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 07:59:40 -0700 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: <33c9ffb6f50e4116dc50ae510f0514e2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <38d8b60e-fe5d-159c-86c1-2de4691fddc9@bitsavers.org> On 10/6/16 11:14 PM, Jason T wrote: > I was also going to ask if anyone knew of any other examples of > phonograph records used to store data. Inner City Unit's "Spectrum Program" is mentioned on the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Spectrum_software I actually played it once on my radio show. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 7 10:04:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 08:04:45 -0700 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: <33c9ffb6f50e4116dc50ae510f0514e2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 10/6/16 11:14 PM, Jason T wrote: > It was > either Kilobaud of Interface Age that had them. Interface Age I have a couple that I just ran across again that I need to digitize There was just a discussion about these on the MAME developers list. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 7 10:57:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2016 10:57:34 -0500 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57F7C5EE.40609@pico-systems.com> On 10/07/2016 01:01 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 10:32 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Here's a scan - and special bonus audio tracks - of a brochure and 7" >> record I found on ebay recently: >> >> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/EG%26G >> >> "Data on a Platter" from a company called EG&G (anyone heard of them?) >> describes their vinyl (as in analog audio record) data storage scheme >> and how it will fit into your business. > Groovy. > > "EG&G (anyone heard of them?)" > > The 'E' in "EG&G" is for Harold Eugene "Doc" Edgerton, who is famous > for his pioneering work in strobe photography. He was quite a legend > as a professor at MIT. > Yup, I got a tour of MIT, and at one point the guide left me and my parents in a room. The walls were lined with glass-front cabinets, filled with hunting rifles. I was baffled for a bit, and then realized "WOW, this is Harold Edgerton's lab!!!" EG&G is Edgerton, Germeshausen and Grier, Inc. I don't know much about the other two guys. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 7 12:30:11 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 10:30:11 -0700 Subject: TI memory board Message-ID: <576417a6-e5b3-1427-815b-3c9404961dd1@bitsavers.org> wonder why all the interest. gold bugs, or do people realize there are i1103s on there? http://www.ebay.com/itm/262652558004 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 7 12:31:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 10:31:09 -0700 Subject: TI memory board In-Reply-To: <576417a6-e5b3-1427-815b-3c9404961dd1@bitsavers.org> References: <576417a6-e5b3-1427-815b-3c9404961dd1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <141f6be1-08f0-e0bb-91e5-8b29d9eb9765@bitsavers.org> oops, they aren't Intel On 10/7/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > wonder why all the interest. > gold bugs, or do people realize there are i1103s on there? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262652558004 > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 13:26:05 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 20:26:05 +0200 Subject: TI memory board In-Reply-To: <141f6be1-08f0-e0bb-91e5-8b29d9eb9765@bitsavers.org> References: <576417a6-e5b3-1427-815b-3c9404961dd1@bitsavers.org> <141f6be1-08f0-e0bb-91e5-8b29d9eb9765@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-10-07 19:31 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow : > oops, they aren't Intel > They are MIL. Micro Systems International: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/microsystems_international If someone are into repairing HP98x0A machines this would be a life time supply of spare chips provided they are good. /Mattis > > On 10/7/16 10:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > wonder why all the interest. > > gold bugs, or do people realize there are i1103s on there? > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262652558004 > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 7 14:02:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 12:02:30 -0700 Subject: TI memory board In-Reply-To: References: <576417a6-e5b3-1427-815b-3c9404961dd1@bitsavers.org> <141f6be1-08f0-e0bb-91e5-8b29d9eb9765@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17785578-e679-40b5-e330-213437330bb5@bitsavers.org> Guess I should look memory boards are inside my TI 960 and 980 The 990 used dual-wide verisons of that board form factor and used 4K and higher DRAMs > They are MIL. Micro Systems International: > https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/microsystems_international > > If someone are into repairing HP98x0A machines this would be a life time > supply of spare chips provided they are good. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 14:40:45 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 15:40:45 -0400 Subject: TI memory board In-Reply-To: <17785578-e679-40b5-e330-213437330bb5@bitsavers.org> References: <576417a6-e5b3-1427-815b-3c9404961dd1@bitsavers.org> <141f6be1-08f0-e0bb-91e5-8b29d9eb9765@bitsavers.org> <17785578-e679-40b5-e330-213437330bb5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Guess I should look memory boards are inside my TI 960 and 980 > The 990 used dual-wide verisons of that board form factor and used 4K and > higher DRAMs I have some of those TI memory boards loose (and one machine, a 960A, for which I'm (still) missing the key - http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104965575922594&w=2). I keep meaning to get a key to test it but the last one I spotted on eBay closed a day or so before I found it. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 18:28:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 19:28:03 -0400 Subject: 'Revolutionary Force' Bombs IBM Offices Message-ID: 'Revolutionary Force' Bombs IBM Offices Computer Word, March 18, 1970.. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=654 Does anyone have a stash of these old Computer World's? I have found very few online. I assume there is a complete set somewhere...? Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 19:48:21 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 20:48:21 -0400 Subject: 'Revolutionary Force' Bombs IBM Offices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 7, 2016 8:03 PM, "Jason T" wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:28 PM, william degnan wrote: > > Does anyone have a stash of these old Computer World's? I have found very > > few online. I assume there is a complete set somewhere...? > > There are many online via Google Books, though not the issue you have there: > > https://books.google.com/books/about/Computerworld.html?id=ph6vc1JYSAIC This is what I found too, not a lot 60's stuff. I have precious few. I would love a complete electronic archive of computerworld. Great resource for minicomputing news and ads, classifieds of off lease 1401s, univac systems, etc. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Oct 8 04:33:31 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 22:33:31 +1300 Subject: New acquisition. Ploycorp Poly 1. New Zealand school computer Message-ID: Hi guys, In case anyone is interested... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly-acquisition.htm This could have been the BBC of New Zealand schools... (-: Terry (Tez) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 8 05:18:47 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:18:47 +0100 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice Message-ID: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> I have an RD53 disk drive. When I plugged it in the other day something blew up, smoke etc. I found that it was a tantalum capacitor on the motor control board that had gone. I suppose I am wondering if just replacing it is a good idea, could the failure be a symptom of another problem, could it have damaged something else? I realise that without a schematic it may be difficult to comment, but I suppose it is more a question about what can cause these caps to fail? If anyone has a schematic, or a drive they can examine, it is C1 on the motor control board, quite close to the molex socket for power. Regards Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 8 06:18:04 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2016 12:18:04 +0100 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 08/10/2016 11:18, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > I have an RD53 disk drive. When I plugged it in the other day something blew > up, smoke etc. I found that it was a tantalum capacitor on the motor control > board that had gone. I suppose I am wondering if just replacing it is a good > idea, could the failure be a symptom of another problem, could it have > damaged something else? I realise that without a schematic it may be > difficult to comment, but I suppose it is more a question about what can > cause these caps to fail? > I plugged in the power supply from a NASCOM2 the other week and one of the tants exploded but the supply still worked so I just replaced it and all was well, similarly with the floppy drive in an IBM5150 a few years ago. I was told they can go short-circuit when they fail so explode in a similar manner to fitting one in reverse polarity. (*innocent whistle*). -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 07:15:37 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:15:37 -0400 Subject: New acquisition. Ploycorp Poly 1. New Zealand school computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool system. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 8, 2016 5:33 AM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Hi guys, > > In case anyone is interested... > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly-acquisition.htm > > This could have been the BBC of New Zealand schools... (-: > > Terry (Tez) > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 8 08:01:36 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2016 14:01:36 +0100 Subject: Executive desk phones anyone? Message-ID: Hi folks, I happened upon a rare beast last weekend and it finally dropped into my hands yesterday. Most folk know about the ICL One-Per-Desk which was essentially a Sinclair QL with re-engineered microdrives and sold massively well here in the UK (British Telecom rebranded it as the BT Merlin) and Australia (Computerphone) and I think it made it to the US too? People don't seem to know about its predecessor, me included. STC (Standard Telephone & Cable) had this designed in the late 70s but it didn't make it to market until 1984 - the STC Executel 3010. It's an AMD8085A powered desk phone with 5" monitor that could store your phone entries, diary appointments, autodial and connect to Viewdata services - PRESTEL in the UK. It was expensive and didn't sell, some googling seems to show that there are only maybe half a dozen in existence with 4 of them in the Cambridge area, apt since it was designed by PA Consulting who amongst other things redesigned the Tandy Coco for the UK and marketed it as the Dragon32. What's interesting from a US standpoint is that it apparently DID make it over the pond and was sold as the 'Buckingham' so the question is, anyone heard of it? http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutel01.jpg -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 10:42:58 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 17:42:58 +0200 Subject: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2016 at 04:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > Not to be more flippant than usual, PC-DOS/MS-DOS has no graphics capability > (80x25 text). Doesn't DOSShell count? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 8 11:39:47 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2016 11:39:47 -0500 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> References: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <57F92153.80207@pico-systems.com> On 10/08/2016 05:18 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have an RD53 disk drive. When I plugged it in the other day something blew > up, smoke etc. I found that it was a tantalum capacitor on the motor control > board that had gone. I suppose I am wondering if just replacing it is a good > idea, could the failure be a symptom of another problem, could it have > damaged something else? I realise that without a schematic it may be > difficult to comment, but I suppose it is more a question about what can > cause these caps to fail? > A WELL-KNOWN problem with Tantalum caps is that if run in equipment for some time, then put on the shelf for some years, then powered up again, the caps will fail, often spectacularly. Sometimes, in things like memory boards, you will have to replace many caps. Likely, just the cap is bad, if it is on an externally-supplied power rail. Supposedly, if you were to ramp up the supply voltage slowly, it would allow the cap's dielectric to reform gracefully. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 8 13:07:23 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 19:07:23 +0100 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: <57F92153.80207@pico-systems.com> References: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> <57F92153.80207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00be01d2218e$d2a447e0$77ecd7a0$@ntlworld.com> > A WELL-KNOWN problem with Tantalum caps is that if run in equipment for > some time, then put on the shelf for some years, then powered up again, > the caps will fail, often spectacularly. Sometimes, in things like memory > boards, you will have to replace many caps. Likely, just the cap is bad, if it is > on an externally-supplied power rail. Supposedly, if you were to ramp up the > supply voltage slowly, it would allow the cap's dielectric to reform gracefully. > I went ahead and replaced it. The drive spins up now, but sadly the drive doesn't actually work, after spinning up and making a few clunking noises, it spins down again. I suspect it is trying, and failing, to find track 0. Regards Rob From isking at uw.edu Sat Oct 8 15:18:08 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 13:18:08 -0700 Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I would love to acquire the Ultrix tapes, but I can't think of any proxies I have in Ottawa. Does Canada have anything like the USPS' 'express' boxes? Or hey, I can wait.... -- Ian On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Mouse wrote: > I've just dug out and inventoried two boxes of magnetic media. A > little of it is not mine; a little more is stuff I'd like copies of if > I can make it happen. > > But most of it is just going to leave soon, one way or another. I'd > rather see it go to someone who can actually use it, but it is not > worth the costs of keeping it around to me. I do not currently have > any system on which I can check the contents of any of these (while > it's possible I might get one or more set up, I can't count on it, and > it's unlikely to happen soon). So, while the labeling might be > accurate, it also might not. > > There are a bunch of TK50s (or something similar; I know there are > other, similar, tapes, some similar enough to fool a quick inspection; > I didn't look in detail to be sure every one is a TK50). They have > labels, some printed, some scribbled, some carefully handwritten. > Here, \ indicates a line break. > > SW/gnu \ Nov 28/91 > /usr/local \ 91/10/26 > 6.0 + 797493 > ULTRIX V4.2 \ SUPPORTED SUBSETS \ VOL. 1 > ULTRIX V4.2 \ SUPPORTED SUBSETS \ VOL. 2 > Sunclock \ 91/11/21 > AQ-PE1F0-01 C01 \ DEC FORT ULTRIX V3.2 BIN \ TK50 > AQ-PE1F0-01 \ DEC FORT ULTRIX V3.2 BIN \ TK50 > ULTRIX V4.2 \ MANDATORY UPGRADE > Kermit5A \ 91/11/21 > DEC FORTRAN \ V3.0 (crossed out and "obsolete" written in) > K2 /usr/local \ 1991/03/14 > LOTUS 1-2-3 \ 91/11/19 > /usr/users \ 91/10/20 > swTeX.tar.Z \ 91/11/02 > ULTRIX V4.2 \ UNSUPPORTED SUBSETS > > There are numerous quarter-inch cartridge tapes (the DC600 formfactor; > many are DC600s or DC600As, but some are other sizes/lengths/formats). > > Some have no label. Three of these have absolutely no label, not even > a manufacturer/brand label. Nine more have a brand label but no > indication of their contents. One has a printed label which has been > ripped off enough that all I'm sure of is that it had the usual > boilerplate text for US Government users. Two others have ripped-off > labels; on one, all that remains legible is "tix" at the end of a word; > the other, I can see enough of a logo to be fairly sure it was an > Accelr8 label. > > Four more have labels that are short and simple enough to fit on a > single line: > > 89/02/22(F) ISC0D0S0 > TO BE CHECKED > 89/02/17 ISC0D0S0 > /files! execlude ./digests & ./misc 90/10/08 cd /files > > Twenty-six tapes are labeled with just their sizes. These are written > in my hand, so I feel fairly sure they are the result of me > capcity-testing the tapes: > > SIZE: 30605 ?512 > SIZE: 30643 ?512 > SIZE: 30611 ?512 > SIZE: 30730 ?512 > SIZE: 30730 ?512 > SIZE: 114081 ?512 > SIZE: 115168 ?512 > SIZE: 116769 ?512 > SIZE: 118878 ?512 > SIZE: 119721 ?512 > SIZE: 119870 ?512 > SIZE: 119891 ?512 > SIZE: 120345 ?512 > SIZE: 120352 ?512 > SIZE: 120412 ?512 > SIZE: 120586 ?512 > SIZE: 120741 ?512 > SIZE: 120756 ?512 > SIZE: 121719 ?512 > SIZE: 121722 ?512 > SIZE: 121917 ?512 > SIZE: 122116 ?512 > SIZE: 122343 ?512 > SIZE: 122608 ?512 > SIZE: 122664 ?512 > 201796?512 > > Five more have sticky-notes (one on the box, one on the tape) and a > size sticker. I _think_ the 3.5 here refers to version 3.5 or > something (SunOS is a likely candidate). > > -- > sticky-note: 3.5 > sticky-note: Tape 1 > sticker: SIZE: 121372 ?512 > -- > sticky-note: 3.5 > sticky-note: Tape 2 > sticker: SIZE: 118586 ?512 > -- > sticky-note: 3.5 > sticky-note: Tape 3 > sticker: SIZE: 119293 ?512 > -- > sticky-note: 3.5 > sticky-note: Tape 4 > sticker: SIZE: 122624 ?512 > -- > sticky-note: 3.5 > sticky-note: Tape 5 > sticker: SIZE: 120216 ?512 > -- > > The rest are a grab-bag: > > -- > NESTAR SYSTEMS INCORPORATED > S.O. # INT4406 PLAN 5000 (tm) > Boot Utility Tape QIC24 > SERIAL # 6050221 SYSTEM RELEASE 5.2 > (C) 1982-1986 NESTAR SYSTEMS, INC. > -- > NESTAR SYSTEMS INCORPORATED > S.O. # INT4406 PLAN 000 (tm) > PLANPAK # 712 IA BACKUP TAPE QIC > SERIAL # 6060238 SYSTEM RELEASE 5 > (C) 1982-1986 NESTAR SYSTEMS, INC. > -- > Nestar Systems, Inc. > Subsidiary of DSC Communications Corporation > PLAN Series (tm) > Boot Uility Tape QIC-24 > FS# UPGRADE Star Plus FS Release 1.10 > 160-12676-002 > (c)1982-1988 DSC Nestar Inc > -- > various indistinct writing; legible bits include: > 90/2/19 > /FICRSI > 90/04/10 > DIGEST > NeXT, SUN-SPOTS, SUN-386i > 92/12/19 > -- > /HOME/ICH 10/10/90 , 11/17/90, 16/15/90 1/30/91 2/1/91 > 22.4.91 > -- > 3/15, 5/8, 7/26 (various further dates and words crossed out) > SUG89 (INTERESTING STUFF ONLY) 90/12/16 > -- > IFUJ1 IFUJ1 90/03/19 TAR HOME/ICH 92/12/10 > 89/3/8 MPAQUETT 90/04/30 > 89/5/1 MPAQUETT 90/05/25 > (indistinct) / 92/12/08 > -- > LAB B > YEAR END > 2/2 > -- > LAB J > A3 MAY 7/93 > -- > LAB F > YEAR END > 1/2 > -- > LAB F > YEAR END > 1/2 > -- > LAB F > YEAR END > 1/2 > -- > LAB F > YEAR END > 1/2 > -- > LAB B > YEAR END > 1/2b > -- > LAB B 4 OF 4 > LAB B > 4 4 HP > JAN 15 1993 n/u > -- > (crossed-out text omitted) > ABBOTT INCR DUMP > OCT-1-87 > 4 MAY 87 (1of2) > -- > NESTAR SYSTEMS INCORPORATED > PLAN 1000 (tm) Print Server Version 1.1 > IA BACKUP TAPE QIC- 11 P/N 160-12170-002 > (C) 1981,1982,1983,1984,1985,1986,1987 > NESTAR SYSTEMS, INC. Licensed Program > -- > SUPERSKETCH REL 6 > > ? A. PENTLAND 1985,1986,1987 > -- > LAB B > 3 4 HP > JAN 15 1993 > -- > Fall- 8AT > LAB B > 1 (unclear) > End of Semester backup > -- > Accelr8 > DESCRIPTION DCL8 (2,0) EDT8 (2,0) > PART NUMBER 8-812-001, 002 RELEASE #: > TAPE 1 OF 1 . NUMBER OF FILES BPI > SN: 000646 > -- > (SUN 3.2 SUNBIN EXPORT 68020 > logo) 1.4" Tape (boot format), 2 of 4 > Part Number: 700-1256-02 Rev. A > -- > box: KEE 3.1 > Genera 7.1 > tape: 3.5 EXPORT SUNBIN 68020 > 1.4" Tape (boot format), 3 of 5 > Part Number: 700-1600-02 Rev. A > -- > 13/3/89 > Relax 1of2 > LFRL system and > saved results > -- > 13/3/89 > Relax 2of2 > -- > LAB J > A2 MAY 7/93 > -- > LAB F > YEAR END > 2/2 > -- > LAB B > 2/4 > -- > LAB J > A1 MAY 7/93 > -- > > There are also a bunch of 5?" floppies. 34 of them are unlabeled, > possibly completely unused: > > 9x Sony branded, DSDD 48tpi > 6x Sony branded, "MD-2HD" > 6x 3M branded, DS, DD, RH, MARK Q > 9x BASF branded, 2S/2D 48tpi > 4x Unbranded > > The BASF floppies from the above list are marked as being for sale to > government and educational institutions only, not for resale; I don't > know whether that has any bearing. > > Of the remaining floppies, some have labels short enough to be > reasonably represented on a single line: > > QuickBasic 1of3 > QuickBasic 2of3 > QuickBasic 3of3 > FW Macros > d|i|g|i|t|a|l branded, unlabeled > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 28/28 85/10/28 (scratched out) > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 27/28 85/10/28 (scratched out) > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 26/28 85/10/28 (scratched out) > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 25/28 86/10/28 (scratched out) > ?ACKUP ????OVMS 4.1M 6/28 85/10/28 (partially ripped off) > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 5/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 4/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 3/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 2/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 1/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 9/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 8/28 85/10/28 > BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 7/28 85/10/28 > MS-DOS boot > AG2012 > Maxell branded, label ripped off, all that's legible is "FEB85" > QuickBasic 1 > QuickBasic 2 > QuickBasic 3 > Network Boot DOS 3.1 > > There is also a set of original Borland Turbo C diskettes: > > INSTALL/HELP A2B0427471 > INTEGRATED DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT > COMMAND LINE/UTILITIES > LIBRARIES > HEADER FILES/LIBRARIES > EXAMPLES/BGI/MISC > > and two sets of six which appear to be working copies of the above. > > There are three Microsoft-branded floppies: > > Microsoft Mouse Setup/Mouse Menus 1 > Microsoft Paintbrush Program/Mouse Menus 2 > Microsoft Paintbrush Utilities Disk > > and two that don't fit any of the above: > > -- > label partially ripped off: remaining text is > BL-N639C-BH > P/OS HARD DIS > DISPATCH > VOLUME LABEL "PROD > 1983 > ? Digital Equipmen > -- > BitFax for Windows V2.08A > (01/25/93) > > BitCom Deluxe with MNP5 v5.1 > (06/20/91) > -- > > This is all in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. In general, I suck at getting > things shipped; local pickup, either in person or by proxy, is much > preferred. I can try to find the round tuits to ship, but it's usually > a losing proposition (I have at least two boxes of stuff that have been > awaiting shipment for months at this point). > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 8 15:36:47 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 21:36:47 +0100 Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> > > This is all in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. In general, I suck at getting things > shipped; local pickup, either in person or by proxy, is much preferred. I can > try to find the round tuits to ship, but it's usually a losing proposition (I have > at least two boxes of stuff that have been awaiting shipment for months at > this point). > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I think the Ultrix and FORTRAN tapes have got to be worth saving whatever happens, and possibly the MicroVMS ones too, even though it appears the latter may have been overwritten. Sadly I am in the UK and don't have a proxy in Ottawa, but please don't get rid of those particular media without giving someone the opportunity to image them. Regards Rob From isking at uw.edu Sat Oct 8 15:39:01 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 13:39:01 -0700 Subject: TPC-I back in one piece (was Re: TeleVideo progress) Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 8:20 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 10/2/2016 6:23 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I've posted looking for help with a TeleVideo TPC-1, and I've heard a lot >> of crickets >> > I saw your FB posting, good job, and chirp chirp. > >> I've ordered an exact, tested/guaranteed >> working replacement from ePay, >> > Those were common drives, but be sure to do a careful inspection, as some > of the drives had variants that were subtle. > > good job, great you got it working. > thanks > JIm > >> and I'm going to have everything working to >> spec before I snap this thing back together. >> >> Yes, I'm having fun. :-) >> >> OK, my 'new' Teac drive arrived and passed inspection. I carefully jumpered it to match the original, reassembled just enough that I could plug it in, and... success! So to recap (pun intended), the machine had bad caps in the power supply (leaking goo) and a bad drive 0. What I want to record here for posterity is how to open one of these things. It was a real pain, which I've heard was intentional. Reassembly was challenging, too, but at least I could see what was happening. So here goes: To disassemble, you need to remove four screws. Facing the unit as it sits on the bench (i.e. operating position), there are two screws on the top of the machine at the front corners and two others on the rear, vertically centered and near each vertical edge (one of them is in the recess where you can store the power and keyboard cables). Now it gets fun. The unit disassembles into a top cover that wraps over side-to-side, and a rear piece that holds the majority of the electronics. The bottom piece of the main case holds the power supply, floppy cage and some of the video electronics. There are plastic 'teeth' that fit into indents at various point along those pieces. For the top cover, the 'teeth' are part of the cover, one per corner. For the back panel, the teeth snap into the top and bottom of the main part of the case. The teeth are also accompanied by a very thin indent in the case piece. It's sort of a muscle job to get these things separated. I got the back piece free before removing the top piece, with a little help from a putty knife in those indents. There are screws in the bottom of the case that hold in the power supply and the floppy cage One of the floppy case screws is located underneath the tilt 'foot'. Putting it back together: be sure you have the logic board *inside* the screw points for the back panel, but don't put in the screws yet. Seat the top cover with its teeth in place, and insert the two front screws (don't screw down tightly yet). Then, lever the back panel's teeth into their slots, watching the top cover to be sure it doesn't try to pop off. Insert the two rear screws and tighten. Now tighten the front two screws, and it's back together. It may take a little jostling to get everything to reseat completely. Now to go through the metric butt-ton of software I got with this thing - over a hundred floppies. Looking at the labels, some are duplicates, some are 'working' disks, and some are original TeleVideo floppies with system software. Fortunately, one of them is Kermit, which will make the archiving job a lot easier! OK, that was fun. Next! Probably the Kenwood TH-77A I bought that won't transmit. Cheers -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 16:23:35 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 14:23:35 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Scott Baker wrote: > Hi, > > Pictures can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/pdp11/ > > The system is located in Portland, Oregon. Local pick-up is preferred. > Not sure if it still works. I have not tried to turn it on in years. > I do not have any software of floppies for it. > I'm not sure what it's worth. If you are interested in it, make me an offer. > The boards appear to be the following in the photos: M8186 KDF11-A 11/23 CPU ????? 256KB parity RAM ????? DSD disk interface for the DSD-440? ????? bus grant card? M8028 DLV11-F Async interface M8012 BDV11 Bus terminator, bootstrap and diagnostic ROMs M8016 KPV11 Power fail, realtime clock, (termination) In some of the photos the M8012 BDV11 is installed upside down. Make sure you don't power it on that way. Should make a usable system for someone local to pickup. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 8 13:25:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2016 19:25:44 +0100 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: <00be01d2218e$d2a447e0$77ecd7a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 08/10/2016 19:07, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: >> A WELL-KNOWN problem with Tantalum caps is that if run in equipment for >> some time, then put on the shelf for some years, then powered up again, >> the caps will fail, often spectacularly. Sometimes, in things like memory >> boards, you will have to replace many caps. Likely, just the cap is bad, > if it is >> on an externally-supplied power rail. Supposedly, if you were to ramp up > the >> supply voltage slowly, it would allow the cap's dielectric to reform > gracefully. >> > > > I went ahead and replaced it. The drive spins up now, but sadly the drive > doesn't actually work, after spinning up and making a few clunking noises, > it spins down again. I suspect it is trying, and failing, to find track 0. You're aware of the infamous stiction problem with RD53s? The rubber buffer that the head rests against when it's parked turns to goo and the head sticks to it and can't move. Top off, unstick head and top back on again. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 8 13:27:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:27:30 -0700 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: <00be01d2218e$d2a447e0$77ecd7a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> <57F92153.80207@pico-systems.com> <00be01d2218e$d2a447e0$77ecd7a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6a54990d-5068-d45e-df5b-a82dce6128a1@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/16 11:07 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I went ahead and replaced it. The drive spins up now, but sadly the drive > doesn't actually work, after spinning up and making a few clunking noises, > it spins down again. I suspect it is trying, and failing, to find track 0. > EXTREMELY common problem with Micropolis 13xx series drives. If you're lucky the head is just stuck to the parking bumper. Unlucky if you ever want to put the drive back in use without a clean room. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 8 13:30:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:30:34 -0700 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: <6a54990d-5068-d45e-df5b-a82dce6128a1@bitsavers.org> References: <009001d2214d$5b73cd80$125b6880$@ntlworld.com> <57F92153.80207@pico-systems.com> <00be01d2218e$d2a447e0$77ecd7a0$@ntlworld.com> <6a54990d-5068-d45e-df5b-a82dce6128a1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0038c184-e7d5-d118-c021-762e9f248b60@bitsavers.org> And stuck Maxtor coaxial spindle motors (RK54) are no joy either. On 10/8/16 11:27 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/8/16 11:07 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> I went ahead and replaced it. The drive spins up now, but sadly the drive >> doesn't actually work, after spinning up and making a few clunking noises, >> it spins down again. I suspect it is trying, and failing, to find track 0. >> > > EXTREMELY common problem with Micropolis 13xx series drives. If you're lucky > the head is just stuck to the parking bumper. Unlucky if you ever want to put > the drive back in use without a clean room. > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 8 13:30:19 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 14:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! Message-ID: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> I've just dug out and inventoried two boxes of magnetic media. A little of it is not mine; a little more is stuff I'd like copies of if I can make it happen. But most of it is just going to leave soon, one way or another. I'd rather see it go to someone who can actually use it, but it is not worth the costs of keeping it around to me. I do not currently have any system on which I can check the contents of any of these (while it's possible I might get one or more set up, I can't count on it, and it's unlikely to happen soon). So, while the labeling might be accurate, it also might not. There are a bunch of TK50s (or something similar; I know there are other, similar, tapes, some similar enough to fool a quick inspection; I didn't look in detail to be sure every one is a TK50). They have labels, some printed, some scribbled, some carefully handwritten. Here, \ indicates a line break. SW/gnu \ Nov 28/91 /usr/local \ 91/10/26 6.0 + 797493 ULTRIX V4.2 \ SUPPORTED SUBSETS \ VOL. 1 ULTRIX V4.2 \ SUPPORTED SUBSETS \ VOL. 2 Sunclock \ 91/11/21 AQ-PE1F0-01 C01 \ DEC FORT ULTRIX V3.2 BIN \ TK50 AQ-PE1F0-01 \ DEC FORT ULTRIX V3.2 BIN \ TK50 ULTRIX V4.2 \ MANDATORY UPGRADE Kermit5A \ 91/11/21 DEC FORTRAN \ V3.0 (crossed out and "obsolete" written in) K2 /usr/local \ 1991/03/14 LOTUS 1-2-3 \ 91/11/19 /usr/users \ 91/10/20 swTeX.tar.Z \ 91/11/02 ULTRIX V4.2 \ UNSUPPORTED SUBSETS There are numerous quarter-inch cartridge tapes (the DC600 formfactor; many are DC600s or DC600As, but some are other sizes/lengths/formats). Some have no label. Three of these have absolutely no label, not even a manufacturer/brand label. Nine more have a brand label but no indication of their contents. One has a printed label which has been ripped off enough that all I'm sure of is that it had the usual boilerplate text for US Government users. Two others have ripped-off labels; on one, all that remains legible is "tix" at the end of a word; the other, I can see enough of a logo to be fairly sure it was an Accelr8 label. Four more have labels that are short and simple enough to fit on a single line: 89/02/22(F) ISC0D0S0 TO BE CHECKED 89/02/17 ISC0D0S0 /files! execlude ./digests & ./misc 90/10/08 cd /files Twenty-six tapes are labeled with just their sizes. These are written in my hand, so I feel fairly sure they are the result of me capcity-testing the tapes: SIZE: 30605 ?512 SIZE: 30643 ?512 SIZE: 30611 ?512 SIZE: 30730 ?512 SIZE: 30730 ?512 SIZE: 114081 ?512 SIZE: 115168 ?512 SIZE: 116769 ?512 SIZE: 118878 ?512 SIZE: 119721 ?512 SIZE: 119870 ?512 SIZE: 119891 ?512 SIZE: 120345 ?512 SIZE: 120352 ?512 SIZE: 120412 ?512 SIZE: 120586 ?512 SIZE: 120741 ?512 SIZE: 120756 ?512 SIZE: 121719 ?512 SIZE: 121722 ?512 SIZE: 121917 ?512 SIZE: 122116 ?512 SIZE: 122343 ?512 SIZE: 122608 ?512 SIZE: 122664 ?512 201796?512 Five more have sticky-notes (one on the box, one on the tape) and a size sticker. I _think_ the 3.5 here refers to version 3.5 or something (SunOS is a likely candidate). -- sticky-note: 3.5 sticky-note: Tape 1 sticker: SIZE: 121372 ?512 -- sticky-note: 3.5 sticky-note: Tape 2 sticker: SIZE: 118586 ?512 -- sticky-note: 3.5 sticky-note: Tape 3 sticker: SIZE: 119293 ?512 -- sticky-note: 3.5 sticky-note: Tape 4 sticker: SIZE: 122624 ?512 -- sticky-note: 3.5 sticky-note: Tape 5 sticker: SIZE: 120216 ?512 -- The rest are a grab-bag: -- NESTAR SYSTEMS INCORPORATED S.O. # INT4406 PLAN 5000 (tm) Boot Utility Tape QIC24 SERIAL # 6050221 SYSTEM RELEASE 5.2 (C) 1982-1986 NESTAR SYSTEMS, INC. -- NESTAR SYSTEMS INCORPORATED S.O. # INT4406 PLAN 000 (tm) PLANPAK # 712 IA BACKUP TAPE QIC SERIAL # 6060238 SYSTEM RELEASE 5 (C) 1982-1986 NESTAR SYSTEMS, INC. -- Nestar Systems, Inc. Subsidiary of DSC Communications Corporation PLAN Series (tm) Boot Uility Tape QIC-24 FS# UPGRADE Star Plus FS Release 1.10 160-12676-002 (c)1982-1988 DSC Nestar Inc -- various indistinct writing; legible bits include: 90/2/19 /FICRSI 90/04/10 DIGEST NeXT, SUN-SPOTS, SUN-386i 92/12/19 -- /HOME/ICH 10/10/90 , 11/17/90, 16/15/90 1/30/91 2/1/91 22.4.91 -- 3/15, 5/8, 7/26 (various further dates and words crossed out) SUG89 (INTERESTING STUFF ONLY) 90/12/16 -- IFUJ1 IFUJ1 90/03/19 TAR HOME/ICH 92/12/10 89/3/8 MPAQUETT 90/04/30 89/5/1 MPAQUETT 90/05/25 (indistinct) / 92/12/08 -- LAB B YEAR END 2/2 -- LAB J A3 MAY 7/93 -- LAB F YEAR END 1/2 -- LAB F YEAR END 1/2 -- LAB F YEAR END 1/2 -- LAB F YEAR END 1/2 -- LAB B YEAR END 1/2b -- LAB B 4 OF 4 LAB B 4 4 HP JAN 15 1993 n/u -- (crossed-out text omitted) ABBOTT INCR DUMP OCT-1-87 4 MAY 87 (1of2) -- NESTAR SYSTEMS INCORPORATED PLAN 1000 (tm) Print Server Version 1.1 IA BACKUP TAPE QIC- 11 P/N 160-12170-002 (C) 1981,1982,1983,1984,1985,1986,1987 NESTAR SYSTEMS, INC. Licensed Program -- SUPERSKETCH REL 6 ? A. PENTLAND 1985,1986,1987 -- LAB B 3 4 HP JAN 15 1993 -- Fall- 8AT LAB B 1 (unclear) End of Semester backup -- Accelr8 DESCRIPTION DCL8 (2,0) EDT8 (2,0) PART NUMBER 8-812-001, 002 RELEASE #: TAPE 1 OF 1 . NUMBER OF FILES BPI SN: 000646 -- (SUN 3.2 SUNBIN EXPORT 68020 logo) 1.4" Tape (boot format), 2 of 4 Part Number: 700-1256-02 Rev. A -- box: KEE 3.1 Genera 7.1 tape: 3.5 EXPORT SUNBIN 68020 1.4" Tape (boot format), 3 of 5 Part Number: 700-1600-02 Rev. A -- 13/3/89 Relax 1of2 LFRL system and saved results -- 13/3/89 Relax 2of2 -- LAB J A2 MAY 7/93 -- LAB F YEAR END 2/2 -- LAB B 2/4 -- LAB J A1 MAY 7/93 -- There are also a bunch of 5?" floppies. 34 of them are unlabeled, possibly completely unused: 9x Sony branded, DSDD 48tpi 6x Sony branded, "MD-2HD" 6x 3M branded, DS, DD, RH, MARK Q 9x BASF branded, 2S/2D 48tpi 4x Unbranded The BASF floppies from the above list are marked as being for sale to government and educational institutions only, not for resale; I don't know whether that has any bearing. Of the remaining floppies, some have labels short enough to be reasonably represented on a single line: QuickBasic 1of3 QuickBasic 2of3 QuickBasic 3of3 FW Macros d|i|g|i|t|a|l branded, unlabeled BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 28/28 85/10/28 (scratched out) BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 27/28 85/10/28 (scratched out) BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 26/28 85/10/28 (scratched out) BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 25/28 86/10/28 (scratched out) ?ACKUP ????OVMS 4.1M 6/28 85/10/28 (partially ripped off) BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 5/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 4/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 3/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 2/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 1/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 9/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 8/28 85/10/28 BACKUP MICROVMS 4.1M 7/28 85/10/28 MS-DOS boot AG2012 Maxell branded, label ripped off, all that's legible is "FEB85" QuickBasic 1 QuickBasic 2 QuickBasic 3 Network Boot DOS 3.1 There is also a set of original Borland Turbo C diskettes: INSTALL/HELP A2B0427471 INTEGRATED DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT COMMAND LINE/UTILITIES LIBRARIES HEADER FILES/LIBRARIES EXAMPLES/BGI/MISC and two sets of six which appear to be working copies of the above. There are three Microsoft-branded floppies: Microsoft Mouse Setup/Mouse Menus 1 Microsoft Paintbrush Program/Mouse Menus 2 Microsoft Paintbrush Utilities Disk and two that don't fit any of the above: -- label partially ripped off: remaining text is BL-N639C-BH P/OS HARD DIS DISPATCH VOLUME LABEL "PROD 1983 ? Digital Equipmen -- BitFax for Windows V2.08A (01/25/93) BitCom Deluxe with MNP5 v5.1 (06/20/91) -- This is all in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. In general, I suck at getting things shipped; local pickup, either in person or by proxy, is much preferred. I can try to find the round tuits to ship, but it's usually a losing proposition (I have at least two boxes of stuff that have been awaiting shipment for months at this point). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 18:48:45 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 18:48:45 -0500 Subject: Executive desk phones anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161008234845.GC40257@gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 08, 2016, Adrian Graham wrote: [...] > What's interesting from a US standpoint is that it apparently DID make it > over the pond and was sold as the 'Buckingham' so the question is, anyone > heard of it? > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutel01.jpg Deceptive subject line -- I thought you were giving some away! ;) -- Eric Christopherson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 9 10:55:32 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 11:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TPC-I back in one piece (was Re: TeleVideo progress) Message-ID: <20161009155532.C961518C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian S. King > What I want to record here for posterity is how to open one of these > things. I archived this to the Computer History wiki: http://gunkies.org/wiki/TeleVideo_TPC-1 Hope that was OK! Noel From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 12:29:45 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 19:29:45 +0200 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Rob, I'm quite sure that the tantalum explosion has nothing to do with the spin-up failure. Indeed the RD53 (Micropolis) is infamous for a problem in the head positioning shock absorber. The head positioning system is based on a voicecoil inserted in the magnetic field; the angle covered by the head arm is limited by two adjustable metal limits originally covered with rubber. At startup the mechanism is moved back and forth to check the two limits, and exactly at the ends a special magnetic pattern is recorded on the surface of the disks for calibration. Due to age, the rubber becomes goo, so the angle limits become wider, so during the calibration the head falls offer the calibration area and spin-up fails. The suggestion is to choose a clean room with few dust and a good lighting, carefully open the top cover of the disc, and remove the goo the more as possible using adsorbent sticks. Be sure not to touch the disc surface with the goo accidentally. Then try to insert some small pieces of paper over one limit (if I'm not wrong the failing is the left) in place of the missing rubber, and try the disc, and continue to add thickness until it works. Then you are sure about the right limit to move. Then remove the paper, loosen a little the screw, but just a little so the limit will not move unless pushed with some strength and a screwdriver. Then move a very small amount towards the center and try, then repeat trial and error until the disc starts. Then tight the screw and it is over. Close the disc and voila. Andrea From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 9 13:31:59 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 19:31:59 +0100 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014901d2225b$6d537500$47fa5f00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of shadoooo > Sent: 09 October 2016 18:30 > To: cctalk > Subject: RE: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice > > Hello Rob, > I'm quite sure that the tantalum explosion has nothing to do with the spin-up > failure. > Indeed the RD53 (Micropolis) is infamous for a problem in the head > positioning shock absorber. > The head positioning system is based on a voicecoil inserted in the magnetic > field; the angle covered by the head arm is limited by two adjustable metal > limits originally covered with rubber. > At startup the mechanism is moved back and forth to check the two limits, > and exactly at the ends a special magnetic pattern is recorded on the surface > of the disks for calibration. > Due to age, the rubber becomes goo, so the angle limits become wider, so > during the calibration the head falls offer the calibration area and spin-up > fails. > The suggestion is to choose a clean room with few dust and a good lighting, > carefully open the top cover of the disc, and remove the goo the more as > possible using adsorbent sticks. > Be sure not to touch the disc surface with the goo accidentally. > Then try to insert some small pieces of paper over one limit (if I'm not wrong > the failing is the left) in place of the missing rubber, and try the disc, and > continue to add thickness until it works. > Then you are sure about the right limit to move. > Then remove the paper, loosen a little the screw, but just a little so the limit > will not move unless pushed with some strength and a screwdriver. > Then move a very small amount towards the center and try, then repeat trial > and error until the disc starts. Then tight the screw and it is over. > Close the disc and voila. Thanks Andrea. I have done this with other RD53s, but not gone as far as loosening the screws. Unfortunately I have failed so far with this particular disk and will try again another day. I suspect though that in this case the goo has spread more widely in the mechanism and gummed it up elsewhere, making the whole thing a bit sticky. I'd like to find a way to clean it more thoroughly. Regards Rob From isking at uw.edu Sun Oct 9 16:08:00 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 14:08:00 -0700 Subject: TPC-I back in one piece (was Re: TeleVideo progress) In-Reply-To: <20161009155532.C961518C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161009155532.C961518C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Fine by me! My intent was to see the information shared. I've been helped by the experiences others have shared here and elsewhere, so I'm glad to return the favor. :-) On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > > What I want to record here for posterity is how to open one of these > > things. > > I archived this to the Computer History wiki: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/TeleVideo_TPC-1 > > Hope that was OK! > > Noel > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Sun Oct 9 16:20:00 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 14:20:00 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:31:29 -0700 > > From: Scott Baker > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon > > Message-ID: > > > gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > Hi, > > > > Pictures can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign. > > ddns.net/temp/pdp11/ > > > > The system is located in Portland, Oregon. Local pick-up is preferred. > > Not sure if it still works. I have not tried to turn it on in years. > > I do not have any software of floppies for it. > > I'm not sure what it's worth. If you are interested in it, make me an > > offer. > > > > Regards, > > Scott > > > > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 > > ************************************* > > > Hi Scott, I'm talking with my colleagues at the People's Computer Museum about perhaps making you an offer. We're in Seattle, so it's a quick roadtrip to pick up. Just FYI, I'll contact you privately to let you know what consensus we reach. Thanks -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 9 17:06:19 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 15:06:19 -0700 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/9/2016 2:22 PM, devin davison wrote: > I picked up 3 of these a while back, I am unsure of what kind of machine > they go to. The plan was to use them to prototype on, but then I found some > even better wire wrap boards and set these aside. I did not want to have to > go through getting all the wire off of them. > > They are up for sale or trade if anyone is interested, I am just curious if > anyone knows what they came out of. > > gallery : > https://postimg.org/gallery/1tizoqomi/ > > --devin > > The edge looks like Multibus, but the height looks too tall for standard Multibus form factor. A friend here in Southern California did custom boards, usually for prototypes, or one or a few off systems for such as Northrup, TRW and Douglas and the like that ranged from board like this up to some that were 24" x 24" and all medium scale DIP technology. This looks neat enough that it may have been machine wrapped, and is probably from some such custom system. The builder probably used the multibus backplane for interconnect if for no other reason than the backplanes would be cheap and available at the time (considering this was probably about a $15,000 to $20,000 job). Is the base board Augat? They had a huge line of different boards of all sorts and shapes and sizes. thanks Jim -- Note change in email address. Please use reply-to address. TWC is changing their email and this may change again reply to is jwsmail at jwsss.com From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 17:27:15 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 16:27:15 -0600 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They look like Multibus (I). From isking at uw.edu Sun Oct 9 19:13:54 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 17:13:54 -0700 Subject: New acquisition. Ploycorp Poly 1. New Zealand school computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:15 AM, william degnan wrote: > Cool system. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Oct 8, 2016 5:33 AM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > > > Hi guys, > > > > In case anyone is interested... > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly-acquisition.htm > > > > This could have been the BBC of New Zealand schools... (-: > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > Very cool indeed. I hope you fix the second system rather than using it as a parts beast - I think the daisy-chain connection of machines is a fascinating historical aspect. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Oct 9 19:33:46 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:33:46 +1300 Subject: New acquisition. Ploycorp Poly 1. New Zealand school computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Cool system Thanks Bill. >Very cool indeed. I hope you fix the second system rather than using it as >a parts beast - I think the daisy-chain connection of machines is a >fascinating historical aspect. Yes, I agree Ian. I've got everything I need for joining them together. My chief interest in this hobby is the historical aspect and a stand-alone poly (although they can be used that way) is not how they were used back in the day. I think the problem with the second one is just old capacitors. Just a matter of identifying and replacing. A good project for sometime next year. This year has been a busy one with many (non-computing) projects. I hope to get more time for THIS hobby next year. Terry (Tez) On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:15 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > Cool system. > > > > Bill Degnan > > twitter: billdeg > > vintagecomputer.net > > On Oct 8, 2016 5:33 AM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > In case anyone is interested... > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly- > acquisition.htm > > > > > > This could have been the BBC of New Zealand schools... (-: > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > Very cool indeed. I hope you fix the second system rather than using it as > a parts beast - I think the daisy-chain connection of machines is a > fascinating historical aspect. > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 9 19:52:42 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 20:52:42 -0400 Subject: New acquisition. Ploycorp Poly 1. New Zealand school computer Message-ID: <168273.6fee8322.452c405a@aol.com> Terry - - Congrats! I never knew about these systems! Thanks for sharing this history with us! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/9/2016 5:13:58 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, isking at uw.edu writes: On Oct 8, 2016 5:33 AM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > > > Hi guys, > > > > In case anyone is interested... > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly-acquisition.htm > > > > This could have been the BBC of New Zealand schools... (-: > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Oct 9 20:46:22 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 11:46:22 +1000 Subject: Data on a Platter! In-Reply-To: References: <33c9ffb6f50e4116dc50ae510f0514e2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: > On 8 Oct 2016, at 1:04 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> On 10/6/16 11:14 PM, Jason T wrote: >> It was >> either Kilobaud of Interface Age that had them. > > Interface Age > > I have a couple that I just ran across again that I need to digitize > There was just a discussion about these on the MAME developers list. > Pete Shelley's 1983 album XL1 had a data track for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum. It contained graphics to go along with all the music, kind of tricky to get it in sync. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 9 22:45:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 23:45:16 -0400 Subject: raytheon 706 computer users manual at SMECC Message-ID: <16aff3.3903a362.452c68cc@aol.com> We have in the library: "raytheon 706 computer users manual" at SMECC. Wanted to see if it was online somewhere. Nice shape tight binding with an additional errata and addendum pamphlet accompanying it. I see bitsavers has manual but not pmphlet.Also there is no color front and back cover, which if you have the computer is cool artwork for a display. - Anyone with a 706 out there? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 10 01:07:52 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 02:07:52 -0400 Subject: Need a case that has not turned to goo for a workslate Message-ID: <16daec.2b45b249.452c8a38@aol.com> Need a case that has not turned to goo for a WORKSLATE the case we have is NASTY!! thanks Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 04:06:29 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 10:06:29 +0100 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator Message-ID: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Folks, I am "playing" with a small VAX and want to install software onto it, some of which are in SIMH ".tap" format files. I was thinking it would be nice to have a SCSI Tape emulator that worked a bit like the USB floppy emulators that are about. So it would plug into the SCSI bus and allow ".TAP" (and other tape formats) stored on some kind of flash memory, say USB or SD card perhaps, to be read by real hardware. Does this sound usefull to any one? Any other thoughts on how this could be achieved? Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Oct 10 04:19:22 2016 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (cctech) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 22:19:22 +1300 Subject: New acquisition. Ploycorp Poly 1. New Zealand school computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-10-08 22:33, Terry Stewart wrote: > Hi guys, > > In case anyone is interested... > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2016-10-9-poly-acquisition.htm > > This could have been the BBC of New Zealand schools... (-: > > Terry (Tez) Thank-you for this; it brings back some memories. I visited Wellington Polytech late 1980 as part of a VUW school mathematics camp (for want of a better word). At that stage it was still called Polywog and wasn't the finished unit you have, just a set of boards. Lawrence From aswood at t-online.de Mon Oct 10 04:43:38 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 11:43:38 +0200 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This would be a quite useful device, not only for SCSI, but for other interfaces also. > Am 10.10.2016 um 11:06 schrieb Dave Wade : > > Folks, > > I am "playing" with a small VAX and want to install software onto it, some > of which are in SIMH ".tap" format files. I was thinking it would be nice to > have a SCSI Tape emulator that worked a bit like the USB floppy emulators > that are about. > > So it would plug into the SCSI bus and allow ".TAP" (and other tape formats) > stored on some kind of flash memory, say USB or SD card perhaps, to be read > by real hardware. > > > > Does this sound usefull to any one? Any other thoughts on how this could be > achieved? > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 09:41:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 07:41:38 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/16 2:43 AM, aswood at t-online.de wrote: >> So it would plug into the SCSI bus and allow ".TAP" (and other tape formats) >> stored on some kind of flash memory, say USB or SD card perhaps, to be read >> by real hardware. >> >> >> >> Does this sound usefull to any one? Any other thoughts on how this could be >> achieved? >> yes it would be useful. a firmware mod to the existing scsi disk emulator board? From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 12:32:22 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 10:32:22 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Hi Glen *>> The boards appear to be the following in the photos:>> M8186 KDF11-A 11/23 CPU>> ????? 256KB parity RAM>> ????? DSD disk interface for the DSD-440?>> ????? bus grant card?>> M8028 DLV11-F Async interface>> M8012 BDV11 Bus terminator, bootstrap and diagnostic ROMs>> M8016 KPV11 Power fail, realtime clock, (termination) ????? 256KB parity RAM >> Yes, the board was made by National Semiconductor Memory Systems but is has TI RAMs on it 9x4xTMS4164-150ns ????? DSD disk interface for the DSD-440? >> Yes :) ????? bus grant card? >> Yes :) >> In some of the photos the M8012 BDV11 is installed upside down. Make >> sure you don't power it on that way. I noticed that :P Thanks, Scott On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 10:00 AM, wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon (Scott Baker) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 11:31:29 -0700 > From: Scott Baker > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi, > > Pictures can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign. > ddns.net/temp/pdp11/ > > The system is located in Portland, Oregon. Local pick-up is preferred. > Not sure if it still works. I have not tried to turn it on in years. > I do not have any software of floppies for it. > I'm not sure what it's worth. If you are interested in it, make me an > offer. > > Regards, > Scott > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 > ************************************* > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 05:07:18 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 23:07:18 +1300 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2016 10:06 PM, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > Folks, > > I am "playing" with a small VAX and want to install software onto it, some > of which are in SIMH ".tap" format files. I was thinking it would be nice to > have a SCSI Tape emulator that worked a bit like the USB floppy emulators > that are about. > > So it would plug into the SCSI bus and allow ".TAP" (and other tape formats) > stored on some kind of flash memory, say USB or SD card perhaps, to be read > by real hardware. > > > > Does this sound usefull to any one? Any other thoughts on how this could be > achieved? > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM & EA7KAE Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? Mike From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 06:51:57 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 12:51:57 +0100 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 10 October 2016 11:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: SCSI Tape Emulator > > On Oct 10, 2016 10:06 PM, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > I am "playing" with a small VAX and want to install software onto it, > > some of which are in SIMH ".tap" format files. I was thinking it would > > be nice > to > > have a SCSI Tape emulator that worked a bit like the USB floppy > > emulators that are about. > > > > So it would plug into the SCSI bus and allow ".TAP" (and other tape > formats) > > stored on some kind of flash memory, say USB or SD card perhaps, to be > read > > by real hardware. > > > > > > > > Does this sound usefull to any one? Any other thoughts on how this > > could > be > > achieved? > > > > > > > > Dave Wade > > > > G4UGM & EA7KAE > > Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? I am not sure, it looks there is some code in there for tape but its very minimal. In addition there are no interfaces on the card to select the ".tap" file to be used. Dave > > Mike From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Oct 10 08:02:38 2016 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:02:38 +0100 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87mvic9x1t.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > I am "playing" with a small VAX and want to install software onto it, some > of which are in SIMH ".tap" format files. I was thinking it would be nice to > have a SCSI Tape emulator that worked a bit like the USB floppy emulators > that are about. It would be nice! Not the same, but there is a perl script you may use to write to the .tap file to a tape device. As I say, different but may still be useful to some. http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/tapcat.pl thanks to pjustice on #classiccmp irc for this link. Aaron. From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 10 09:48:55 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:48:55 +0200 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ba175f7-6220-a98a-fcf0-ab7c159075ac@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-10 12:07, Mike Ross wrote: > Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? Did anybody try if it works on a VAX? The SCSI2SD is the only one whioch I didn't try, now the newer version is out, and should even be faster. But didn't have the time to try. And, SCSI2SD was open-source? So it should be easy to add the .tap files ... From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 10:24:32 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 08:24:32 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:51 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? > > I am not sure, it looks there is some code in there for tape but its very > minimal. > In addition there are no interfaces on the card to select the ".tap" file > to be used. > > Not needed; copy the .tap file directly to the SD card, no partition tables, no file system: dd if=foo.tap of=/dev/sdx Fix up the firmwre (a SMOP) with a pointer to where you are in the .tap data; it starts at block 0, offset 0 at the location would be the first block size word of the .tap data. Treat the disk as a file; read reads the data at the pointer and moves the pointer to the end of the read. Assuming LBA, the pointer value maps directly to block number/offset. Fill out the SCSI tape commands to use the pointer and the data. -- Charles From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 10 11:11:42 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 09:11:42 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <454ca4b8-0b79-8e5f-9772-3d9fccaf3df5@jwsss.com> On 10/10/2016 8:24 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:51 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >>> Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? >> I am not sure, it looks there is some code in there for tape but its very >> minimal. >> In addition there are no interfaces on the card to select the ".tap" file >> to be used. >> >> > Not needed; copy the .tap file directly to the SD card, no partition > tables, no file system: > > dd if=foo.tap of=/dev/sdx > > Fix up the firmwre (a SMOP) with a pointer to where you are in the .tap > data; it starts at block 0, offset 0 at the location would be the first > block size word of the .tap data. Treat the disk as a file; read reads the > data at the pointer and moves the pointer to the end of the read. Assuming > LBA, the pointer value maps directly to block number/offset. > > Fill out the SCSI tape commands to use the pointer and the data. > > -- Charles > > The only thing I might mention was that the brand name was used on some initiators to either behave differently or not at all. We had an emulation in our SCSI development package that emulated an ST-150 and it worked on most initiators, but there were some who didn't like it, and once we found out what the identification had to be things were good. I don't recall what behavior was expected in the off cases, other than possibly the block sizes of the transfers. One could also emulate a half inch drive, vs. a QIC, which can have variable block sizes. Emulating QIC is a bit simpler as you don't have to deal with retrieving excess data commands which you might with half inch. Our system was Peer Protocols 5000 and 7000. We also had a 0550 narrow capture card. Would be interested if anyone worked with it. thanks Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 12:23:49 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 13:23:49 -0400 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> > On Oct 10, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:51 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >>> Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? >> >> I am not sure, it looks there is some code in there for tape but its very >> minimal. >> In addition there are no interfaces on the card to select the ".tap" file >> to be used. >> >> > Not needed; copy the .tap file directly to the SD card, no partition > tables, no file system: > > dd if=foo.tap of=/dev/sdx > > Fix up the firmwre (a SMOP) with a pointer to where you are in the .tap > data; it starts at block 0, offset 0 at the location would be the first > block size word of the .tap data. Treat the disk as a file; read reads the > data at the pointer and moves the pointer to the end of the read. Assuming > LBA, the pointer value maps directly to block number/offset. > > Fill out the SCSI tape commands to use the pointer and the data. I don't understand how that would work. A tape device implements SCSI tape commands, not block device (disk) commands. A tape block corresponds to the chunk of data in a .TAP file between block header and trailer, and its length is given by that header. If you put a .TAP fie into a raw block device, it's still 512 byte sector data on a block device; a tape driver would not understand it. It seems like a straightforward task to take such a TAP file image and emulate SCSI tape commands on it, but it definitely sounds like real work. paul From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:16:25 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 08:16:25 +1300 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <4ba175f7-6220-a98a-fcf0-ab7c159075ac@e-bbes.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <4ba175f7-6220-a98a-fcf0-ab7c159075ac@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2016 3:48 AM, "emanuel stiebler" wrote: > > On 2016-10-10 12:07, Mike Ross wrote: > >> Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? > > > Did anybody try if it works on a VAX? > The SCSI2SD is the only one whioch I didn't try, now the newer version is out, and should even be faster. But didn't have the time to try. > I have booted my VAX-11/730 from a SCSI2SD connected to an Emulex UC17 without any problems. Mike From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:53:28 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 12:53:28 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 10, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Charles Anthony < > charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:51 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > >>> Would it not be a SMOP to get a SCSI2SD device to emulate a tape drive? > >> > >> I am not sure, it looks there is some code in there for tape but its > very > >> minimal. > >> In addition there are no interfaces on the card to select the ".tap" > file > >> to be used. > >> > >> > > Not needed; copy the .tap file directly to the SD card, no partition > > tables, no file system: > > > > dd if=foo.tap of=/dev/sdx > > > > Fix up the firmwre (a SMOP) with a pointer to where you are in the .tap > > data; it starts at block 0, offset 0 at the location would be the first > > block size word of the .tap data. Treat the disk as a file; read reads > the > > data at the pointer and moves the pointer to the end of the read. > Assuming > > LBA, the pointer value maps directly to block number/offset. > > > > Fill out the SCSI tape commands to use the pointer and the data. > > I don't understand how that would work. A tape device implements SCSI > tape commands, not block device (disk) commands. A tape block corresponds > to the chunk of data in a .TAP file between block header and trailer, and > its length is given by that header. > > If you put a .TAP fie into a raw block device, it's still 512 byte sector > data on a block device; a tape driver would not understand it. > Yes; the firmware needs to parse the .tap data to extract the tape records; my point was that it was not necessary to add the ability to handle file systems and file name specification -- if suffices to put the content of the .tap file on the SD device. Details: The .tap format is a series of tape records; each record is stored as a 2 byte byte count, the data (sometimes rounded to an even number of bytes), and a repeat of the 2 byte byte count. This format supports the basic tape record operations; you need to keep a pointer to the current record. A 'tape read' retrieves the byte count from the record pointed to by the pointer, retrieves the data, and advances the pointer to the next block. Tape marks are stored as 2 bytes of zeros. Skipping records forward is done by retrieving the byte count and calculating the new pointer value. Skipping backward is done by backing the pointer up 2 bytes, and retrieving the 2nd copy of the byte count of the previous record, and calculating how far back to move the pointer. Rewind sets the pointer to 0. A SCSI tape read command reads the record from the tape file, recovering the byte count and data, and leaving the pointer pointing to the next record. If the byte count is 0, the SCSI reply is "tape mark"; otherwise the reply contains the byte length and the data. This is more complex then seek/read_block of the disk, but not horribly so. The bigger problem is the idiosyncratic behavior of SCSI tape drives with respect to identification, status information and assumed command sequences, as implemented by the drive manufacturer based on the Very Own interpretation of the standards. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 14:56:49 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 12:56:49 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> Message-ID: Don't tape emulator boxes already exist, both for SCSI and Pertec interfaces? It seems to me that I've seen a few. --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 10 15:06:23 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 21:06:23 +0100 Subject: Chip info reqd: MR9736-002 CRT controller? Message-ID: Hi folks, The restoration of the STC Executel 3910 I mentioned the other day continues with picture help from another collector who bought one at the same time I did. I've got it powering up and the tiny monitor is trying to display something but the horizontal hold has gone so I'm suspecting dry joints given the state of the back of the monitor board and the microcassette drive next to it when I opened it up for the first time. It's been cleaned and the leaky battery removed since then, fortunately there's no trace damage from the alkali. The display board is powered by the chip in the subject line and neither myself or google has heard of it. It's a 40 pin DIP that doesn't seem to be pin compatible with any CRTC I'm aware of. Anyone? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 10 15:38:20 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:38:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ISO Table from ENIAC Technical Manual References: <36598724.1497608.1476131900026.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36598724.1497608.1476131900026@mail.yahoo.com> I know this is a very long shot, but I'm looking for Table 6-13 from the ENIAC Technical Manual Part 1 by Adele Goldstine. In the table of tables at the front of the manual, it's listed as being "in an envelope attached to the back cover." Neither the scan on archive.org nor the printed copy from Periscope Film (which appears to be produced from the scan on archive.org) appear to have this table. Does anyone know where a scan of this table might exist? Thanks in advance, BLS From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:02:12 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 22:02:12 +0100 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 10 October 2016 20:57 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: SCSI Tape Emulator > > Don't tape emulator boxes already exist, both for SCSI and Pertec > interfaces? It seems to me that I've seen a few. > > --Chuck Do you have any links, I couldn't turn any up? Are they affordable? Dave G4UGM From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:08:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 15:08:08 -0600 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted Message-ID: Would anyone care to donate floppy disk flux-transition images for use in development of utility software and for regression-testing the same? It would be much appreciated. Images from "normal" floppy formats (IBM FM and MFM, e.g., TRS-80, IBM PC, or almost anything using 177x/179x/279x or 765/8272 family controllers) and obscure formats (DEC RX02, Victor 9000) would be welcome. I'd especially like to get IBM 23FD "Minnow" disk images, but I'm not holding my breath for that. If you send me any images, a brief description of what they might contain and/or what system they're from would be helpful. I don't need to be able to do anything with the content; I just want to verify that I can extract the content from flux images into sector images. If you send me any images that you don't want made public, let me know. Thanks! Eric From kurtk7 at centurylink.net Mon Oct 10 16:20:27 2016 From: kurtk7 at centurylink.net (Kurt K) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:20:27 -0500 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> Anyone know how you can locate a Discferret and Catweasel? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Would anyone care to donate floppy disk flux-transition images for use > in development of utility software and for regression-testing the > same? It would be much appreciated. > > Images from "normal" floppy formats (IBM FM and MFM, e.g., TRS-80, IBM > PC, or almost anything using 177x/179x/279x or 765/8272 family > controllers) and obscure formats (DEC RX02, Victor 9000) would be > welcome. I'd especially like to get IBM 23FD "Minnow" disk images, but > I'm not holding my breath for that. > > If you send me any images, a brief description of what they might > contain and/or what system they're from would be helpful. I don't need > to be able to do anything with the content; I just want to verify that > I can extract the content from flux images into sector images. > > If you send me any images that you don't want made public, let me know. > > Thanks! > Eric From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:33:53 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:33:53 -0700 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a pile of RX50 images at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/VAX8200/ in SCP format if that helps... - Josh On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Would anyone care to donate floppy disk flux-transition images for use > in development of utility software and for regression-testing the > same? It would be much appreciated. > > Images from "normal" floppy formats (IBM FM and MFM, e.g., TRS-80, IBM > PC, or almost anything using 177x/179x/279x or 765/8272 family > controllers) and obscure formats (DEC RX02, Victor 9000) would be > welcome. I'd especially like to get IBM 23FD "Minnow" disk images, but > I'm not holding my breath for that. > > If you send me any images, a brief description of what they might > contain and/or what system they're from would be helpful. I don't need > to be able to do anything with the content; I just want to verify that > I can extract the content from flux images into sector images. > > If you send me any images that you don't want made public, let me know. > > Thanks! > Eric > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 16:41:22 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:41:22 -0700 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> I see a CW 4 and Discferret sitting on my bench, along with a Supercard Pro. I've got a dead CW 3 and a working one ..somewhere that I wanted to do A/B comparisons with. Eric, I had been trying to find time to set up the diskferret, since that was what you originally asked for, but I can more easily do CW right now, though I should go through the exercise of getting it running under Linux, which is a pain because they stole someone elses PCI ID for the card, so you have to blacklist the other device. Do you have a prefered CW transition image format? On 10/10/16 2:20 PM, Kurt K wrote: > Anyone know how you can locate a Discferret and Catweasel? > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 17:07:23 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 15:07:23 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> Don't tape emulator boxes already exist, both for SCSI and Pertec >> interfaces? It seems to me that I've seen a few. >> >> --Chuck > > Do you have any links, I couldn't turn any up? > Are they affordable? Sure, they exist. Can you actually buy one, or afford to buy one? Probably not. Looks like a few stale web pages out there for tape drive emulators with no sales and pricing information => if you can find someone that will tell you how much they cost the answer is you can't afford one. Of course I'd be happy to be proven wrong with hard data on actual pricing and availability... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 17:27:28 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 15:27:28 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/2016 02:02 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Do you have any links, I couldn't turn any up? Are they affordable? Only an echo of a name rattling around in my brainpan--AVAX. Maybe a google search will turn up something. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 17:34:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 15:34:04 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41eca4f1-aab6-d15c-7473-fa53e29d1452@bitsavers.org> "9-track tape emulator" brings up the usual suspects on G they are ~10k dollar devices. http://www.arraid.com/ et. al. On 10/10/16 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/10/2016 02:02 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> Do you have any links, I couldn't turn any up? Are they affordable? > > > Only an echo of a name rattling around in my brainpan--AVAX. > > Maybe a google search will turn up something. > > --Chuck > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 10 17:31:23 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 22:31:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ISO Figure from ENIAC Technical Manual References: <2081565007.1480572.1476138683647.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2081565007.1480572.1476138683647@mail.yahoo.com> I know this is a very long shot, but I'm looking for Figure 6-13 from the Part I Technical Manual on the ENIAC by Adele Goldstine. In the table of tables at the front of the manual, this table is one of three listed as "in an envelope attached to the back cover." Neither the scan on archive.org, nor the printed manual from Periscope Film, appear to include these tables. Does anyone by any chance know where a scan of any of those three tables (6-13, 7-4, and 8-13) might exist? Thanks in advance, BLS From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 17:46:51 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:46:51 -0600 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2016 3:33 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > I have a pile of RX50 images at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/VAX8200/ > in SCP format if that helps... Thanks! I'm not familiar with SCP, but if the file format is documented, I'll add support for it to fluxtoimd. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 17:48:12 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:48:12 -0600 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2016 3:41 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > Do you have a prefered CW transition image format? No preference, as I haven't dealt with them at all yet. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:12:09 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:12:09 -0400 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Eric, I am a newbie to Kryoflux (it just arrived this past Friday) but I did manage to set it up and try a couple of regular disks. The following link is to my Victor 9000 CP/M-86 boot disk, if I did it correctly. I also included the log file. http://vintagecomputer.ca/download/victor_9000/CP-M-86. Victor9000-Kryoflux.Stream.zip I wasn't familiar with your tool but a quick search turned it up on GitHub. I also have an FDADAP floppy disk adapter for 8" disks but haven't tried that yet. I also haven't figured out how to determine disk characteristics to make floppies yet but I'll learn. I also have several disk formats in 3.5", 5.25" and 8" with equipment to match in most cases. So, in this case, I could try out the resulting IMD file by recreating it and running it on my Victor 9000, if that is helpful. I bought the Kryoflux to save my disks so I'm happy to help with whatever you need. Santo On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Oct 10, 2016 3:41 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > Do you have a prefered CW transition image format? > > No preference, as I haven't dealt with them at all yet. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 18:22:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:22:56 -0700 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> You haven't actually decoded it, you've just captured flux changes. How do you know what is there is actually correct? I'm also puzzled when you refer to "IMD" Dave Dunfield's utility? That won't work on a Victor 9000 disk On 10/10/16 4:12 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > http://vintagecomputer.ca/download/victor_9000/CP-M-86. > Victor9000-Kryoflux.Stream.zip From north at alum.mit.edu Mon Oct 10 18:25:41 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:25:41 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <41eca4f1-aab6-d15c-7473-fa53e29d1452@bitsavers.org> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> <41eca4f1-aab6-d15c-7473-fa53e29d1452@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5a16eb2b-efef-364b-b694-bb6a424c0d94@alum.mit.edu> Something new: http://embedded-computing.com/news/launch-scsiflash-tape-replacement-obsolete-end-of-life-tape-drives/ but no price listed. Not targeted at the classic computing hobbyist, so probably going to be expensive. On 10/10/2016 3:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > "9-track tape emulator" brings up the usual suspects on G > > they are ~10k dollar devices. > > http://www.arraid.com/ > > et. al. > > > On 10/10/16 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10/10/2016 02:02 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> >>> Do you have any links, I couldn't turn any up? Are they affordable? >> >> Only an echo of a name rattling around in my brainpan--AVAX. >> >> Maybe a google search will turn up something. >> >> --Chuck >> From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 18:49:10 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:49:10 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <5a16eb2b-efef-364b-b694-bb6a424c0d94@alum.mit.edu> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> <41eca4f1-aab6-d15c-7473-fa53e29d1452@bitsavers.org> <5a16eb2b-efef-364b-b694-bb6a424c0d94@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: brochure http://www.ssd.gb.com/SCSIFlash/SCSIFlash-Tape/SCSIFlash-Tape%E2%84%A2.pdf On 10/10/16 4:25 PM, Don North wrote: > > Something new: http://embedded-computing.com/news/launch-scsiflash-tape-replacement-obsolete-end-of-life-tape-drives/ > but no price listed. > Not targeted at the classic computing hobbyist, so probably going to be expensive. > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Oct 10 18:49:12 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 23:49:12 +0000 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC2565@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Charles Anthony Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 12:53 PM > Details: The .tap format is a series of tape records; each record is > stored as a 2 byte byte count, the data (sometimes rounded to an even > number of bytes), and a repeat of the 2 byte byte count. This format > supports the basic tape record operations; you need to keep a pointer > to the current record. A 'tape read' retrieves the byte count from the > record pointed to by the pointer, retrieves the data, and advances the > pointer to the next block. Tape marks are stored as 2 bytes of > zeros. Skipping records forward is done by retrieving the byte count > and calculating the new pointer value. Skipping backward is done by > backing the pointer up 2 bytes, and retrieving the 2nd copy of the > byte count of the previous record, and calculating how far back to > move the pointer. Rewind sets the pointer to 0. Correction: .tap format uses 4 byte counters, in little-endian order. Order is not relevant for the EOF tape marks, of course, since they're 4 bytes of 0. The older DECUS .tpc format uses a 2 byte counter, also little endian, but only at the front of the record (no read backwards capability). Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 18:53:20 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:53:20 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <000c01d22339$92c7c780$b8575680$@gmail.com> <41eca4f1-aab6-d15c-7473-fa53e29d1452@bitsavers.org> <5a16eb2b-efef-364b-b694-bb6a424c0d94@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: http://www.reactivedata.com/Products/SCSI_Bridge_Emulators_to_CF/imgs/SCSI(LRG).JPG This looks like another (german) product. Will keep digging. On 10/10/16 4:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > brochure > http://www.ssd.gb.com/SCSIFlash/SCSIFlash-Tape/SCSIFlash-Tape%E2%84%A2.pdf > > > On 10/10/16 4:25 PM, Don North wrote: >> >> Something new: http://embedded-computing.com/news/launch-scsiflash-tape-replacement-obsolete-end-of-life-tape-drives/ >> but no price listed. >> Not targeted at the classic computing hobbyist, so probably going to be expensive. >> > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:58:18 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:58:18 -0400 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > You haven't actually decoded it, you've just captured flux changes. > If I am not mistaken, I thought that's what Eric was requesting in his original message. > How do you know what is there is actually correct? > I don't because I am new to the Kryoflux but the log looks okay so I was hoping Eric would know if this was useful. I do know the disk that the flux stream was taken from works because it's original and works in my Victor 9000. > I'm also puzzled when you refer to "IMD" > Dave Dunfield's utility? > I am referring to what the "fluxtoimd" GitHub page README file states. It says "fluxtoimd.py is a Python 3 program to read floppy disk flux transitions images, demodulate the data, and write the data to an ImageDisk image file". > That won't work on a Victor 9000 disk > I was curious about that but I'm willing to give anything a try if it helps the preservation process. Santo From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 19:40:46 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 17:40:46 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC2565@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC2565@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Rich Alderson < RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > From: Charles Anthony > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 12:53 PM > > > Correction: .tap format uses 4 byte counters, in little-endian order. > Order is not relevant for the EOF tape marks, of course, since they're > 4 bytes of 0. > > Stupid memory of mine. Sigh. Anyway, IIUC, the SCSI2SD is like $70; the firmware appears to be closed, but I wonder if an NDA with them would allow adding tape emulation capability to their code base? (Given that I have no knowledge of how SCSI2D works inside, I may be vastly underestimating the scope of the project.) -- Charles From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 19:42:25 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> You haven't actually decoded it, you've just captured flux changes. On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, Santo Nucifora wrote: > If I am not mistaken, I thought that's what Eric was requesting in his > original message. Yes, I believe that what Eric is working on IS the decoding of flux-transition disk images. In particular, those from disk recording systems other than WD/NEC FDC compatible MFM. >> How do you know what is there is actually correct? Until software is created to write it back to disk in its original format, and test it in the original machine, we can not be sure. HOWEVER, if Eric succeeds in decoding the Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) recording format, then we can look at the content of the disk and get reasonable assumptions. > I don't because I am new to the Kryoflux but the log looks okay so I was > hoping Eric would know if this was useful. I do know the disk that the > flux stream was taken from works because it's original and works in my > Victor 9000. I would not have too much confidence in that log. But, those files, if they turn out to be good, seem to be what Eric is asking for! >> I'm also puzzled when you refer to "IMD" >> Dave Dunfield's utility? > I am referring to what the "fluxtoimd" GitHub page README file states. It > says "fluxtoimd.py is a Python 3 program to read floppy disk flux > transitions images, demodulate the data, and write the data to an ImageDisk > image file". >> That won't work on a Victor 9000 disk > I was curious about that but I'm willing to give anything a try if it helps > the preservation process. Therein lies the confusion. IMD is a program, by David Dunfield, to extract the sector contents from disks that are compatible with WD/NEC FDC. It appends the content from the second sector to the end of the first sector, etc. to create a file containing all of the user content, but stripping out all of the sector headers. (The inter-sector material and the track format is already stripped out by the NEC FDC). It is the content of all of the sectors, in a documented file format. What Eric is working on is software that can decode disk formats that are NOT necessarily WD/NEC FDC compatible! And writing a file similar to the one created by IMD. That will most certainly NOT then be convertible by IMD into a Victor 9000 disk! However, OTHER software, that understands the file systems could then extract files. For example, if it is successful, then it might be possible to take the Victor9000 IMD file produced by fluxtoimd, run it through IMD to write that content onto a disk in a WD/NEC compatible format with similarities of parameters other than encoding (eg. Chromemco?), and then read files from that disk using XenoCopy or equivalent. Sorry, but I am not likely to get around to adding IMD file support, nor flux transition support, to XenoCopy. Eric is far more productive than I am. Perhaps one day, he might write something with those capabilities. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 20:11:45 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 18:11:45 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC2565@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <184e0cbb-4550-fb0e-95e5-a3f1f161bb84@gmail.com> On 10/10/16 5:40 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Rich Alderson < > RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > >> From: Charles Anthony >> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 12:53 PM >> >> >> Correction: .tap format uses 4 byte counters, in little-endian order. >> Order is not relevant for the EOF tape marks, of course, since they're >> 4 bytes of 0. >> >> > Stupid memory of mine. Sigh. Anyway, IIUC, the SCSI2SD is like $70; the > firmware appears to be closed, but I wonder if an NDA with them would allow > adding tape emulation capability to their code base? (Given that I have no > knowledge of how SCSI2D works inside, I may be vastly underestimating the > scope of the project.) > > -- Charles > The SCSI2SD firmware (and hardware) are open source, see the "Files" section of the scsi2sd site for the git repo information. Additionally, the guy behind the project is very receptive to feature requests and bug reports... - Josh From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Oct 10 20:19:01 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 18:19:01 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <184e0cbb-4550-fb0e-95e5-a3f1f161bb84@gmail.com> References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC2565@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <184e0cbb-4550-fb0e-95e5-a3f1f161bb84@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 10/10/16 5:40 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Rich Alderson < >> RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: >> >>> From: Charles Anthony >>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 12:53 PM >>> >>> >>> Correction: .tap format uses 4 byte counters, in little-endian order. >>> Order is not relevant for the EOF tape marks, of course, since they're >>> 4 bytes of 0. >>> >>> >> Stupid memory of mine. Sigh. Anyway, IIUC, the SCSI2SD is like $70; the >> firmware appears to be closed, but I wonder if an NDA with them would allow >> adding tape emulation capability to their code base? (Given that I have no >> knowledge of how SCSI2D works inside, I may be vastly underestimating the >> scope of the project.) >> >> -- Charles >> > > The SCSI2SD firmware (and hardware) are open source, see the "Files" section of the scsi2sd site for the git repo information. > > Additionally, the guy behind the project is very receptive to feature requests and bug reports... I was going to point this out as well. My only misgiving would be whether SCSI2SD prior to v6 is powerful or fast enough for any particular use, not whether sufficient resources are available to hack it. -- Chris -- who still needs a JTAG cable to reprogram the boot loader on his bricked SCSI2SD From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 20:45:16 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 18:45:16 -0700 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <017701d222d5$96d44d80$c47ce880$@gmail.com> <02fc01d222ec$b4b82940$1e287bc0$@gmail.com> <602AF6A5-EBA6-4ED8-95F3-BCFD7708F951@comcast.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC2565@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <184e0cbb-4550-fb0e-95e5-a3f1f161bb84@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/16 6:19 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Oct 10, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> On 10/10/16 5:40 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Rich Alderson < >>> RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Charles Anthony >>>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 12:53 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> Correction: .tap format uses 4 byte counters, in little-endian order. >>>> Order is not relevant for the EOF tape marks, of course, since they're >>>> 4 bytes of 0. >>>> >>>> >>> Stupid memory of mine. Sigh. Anyway, IIUC, the SCSI2SD is like $70; the >>> firmware appears to be closed, but I wonder if an NDA with them would allow >>> adding tape emulation capability to their code base? (Given that I have no >>> knowledge of how SCSI2D works inside, I may be vastly underestimating the >>> scope of the project.) >>> >>> -- Charles >>> >> The SCSI2SD firmware (and hardware) are open source, see the "Files" section of the scsi2sd site for the git repo information. >> >> Additionally, the guy behind the project is very receptive to feature requests and bug reports... > I was going to point this out as well. > > My only misgiving would be whether SCSI2SD prior to v6 is powerful or fast enough for any particular use, not whether sufficient resources are available to hack it. For *any* particular use? No -- I wouldn't put it it to use in a datacenter :). I have, however, used it on a wide variety of machines. Right now I have them in a Sun 3/60, a VAX-11/750, a VaxStation 3540, an AT&T 3B2/600 and a Symbolics XL1200 where they work flawlessly. There are certainly vintage machines where the SCSI2SD V4 would be noticeably slower than a real drive, but many vintage machines are simply not fast enough to come close to the peak throughput of the SCSI2SD. - Josh > > -- Chris > -- who still needs a JTAG cable to reprogram the boot loader on his bricked SCSI2SD > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 11 05:32:58 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 11:32:58 +0100 Subject: Front Panels - Update. Message-ID: <14d74358-fd7b-143e-c3da-c7279e835b29@btinternet.com> Hi Firstly I am pleased to be able to say I have five different PDP-8 front panels all in stock. Secondly a big thank you to Jack Rubin for mentioning my panels in his presentation at the Chicago show. I have the artwork for the PDP-8/L done and I'll get a run done as soon as I get enough interested parties. Thanks to Vince I have been able to make a working PDP-8/i lights board. As we all know the 8/i is made up of a wire wrap back plane and loads of flip chip modules. I am only mad not totally insane. So reproducing that lot is not possible. So its the Raspberry Pi and simH route for me. First job is to go and have another look at what Oscar did/is doing. I know he muxed the lamps on his board. He usually open sources everything. In keeping with my plug compatible philosophy I'll go as far as paddle cards and DEC style edge connectors on my PiBoard The switches are the butterfly rocker type. I should be able to pick up an odd one as a sample. I know Oscar is looking at this whole question so I'll get an update from him. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 11 11:17:03 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 09:17:03 -0700 Subject: ADM 3A in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> On Craigslist. Has bad screen rot. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/atq/5817891157.html Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From pete at pski.net Tue Oct 11 11:33:52 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 12:33:52 -0400 Subject: ADM 3A in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> References: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> > > On Oct 11, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > On Craigslist. Has bad screen rot. > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/atq/5817891157.html > > Bob > > That?s an understatement! Anyone know how difficult is it to source a replacement CRT for these? From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 11:43:29 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 11:43:29 -0500 Subject: ADM 3A in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> References: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > > On Oct 11, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Bob Rosenbloom > wrote: > > > > On Craigslist. Has bad screen rot. > > > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/atq/5817891157.html > > > > Bob > > > > > > That?s an understatement! Anyone know how difficult is it to source a > replacement CRT for these? I don't have one of these yet, but Sark on IRC told me you can use pretty much any tube of the right size, and if you want to just clean the cataracts off the existing tube, that isn't hard either. -- Eric Christopherson From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 11 12:14:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 10:14:01 -0700 Subject: ADM 3A in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: References: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> Message-ID: <0a646d04-5bce-b76e-d295-1e77f751faf1@bitsavers.org> On 10/11/16 9:43 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Sark on IRC told me you can use pretty > much any tube of the right size Depending on the length of the HV lead, you may need side or bottom anode button. VT100 is bottom, newer terminals tend to have it on the side. I've got an ADM3 in storage nearby, there are probably pics of the insides on the web, though. From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:33:26 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 13:33:26 -0500 Subject: ADM 3A in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> References: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > > On Oct 11, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Bob Rosenbloom > wrote: > > > > On Craigslist. Has bad screen rot. > > > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/atq/5817891157.html > > > > Bob > > > > > > That?s an understatement! Anyone know how difficult is it to source a > replacement CRT for these? I wonder what the deal is with different ones. Mine has a perfect CRT on it, and as far as I know it is original (I acquired mine from the guy that built it). From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 15:41:16 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 16:41:16 -0400 Subject: SCSI Tape Emulator Message-ID: I thought this sort of thing was what the various target-mode SCSI frameworks were designed for? I seem to remember at least one of them had emulated tape drives backed by files. KJ From rlloken at telus.net Tue Oct 11 23:23:11 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 22:23:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation Message-ID: While rooting through the shop I found the user's manual for the original Sun Workstation. The computer is long gone but the manual returned to haunt me. It is devoid of pictures, logos, and fancy fonts and labelled revision C December 1982. Anybody want it for the cost of postage? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anyone can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** tech at athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston -- This communication is intended for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed, and may contain confidential, personal, and or privileged information. Please contact us immediately if you are not the intended recipient of this communication, and do not copy, distribute, or take action relying on it. Any communications received in error, or subsequent reply, should be deleted or destroyed. --- -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Tue Oct 11 23:26:00 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 22:26:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DECwriter II and Decwriter III engineering drawings Message-ID: I have fallen a across a bound set of LA36 and LA120 engineering drawings. Anybody want them for the cost of mailing them? Remember the good old days when you not only got a printer but detailed service information including a big set of engineering drawings? Sigh. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Tue Oct 11 23:29:29 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 22:29:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Remember Data Printer Corp? Message-ID: While falling over Sun and DEC manuals I also found a complete set of manuals for a great and massive Data Printer Corporation line printer in four volumes: Data Printer Corp Chaintrain Line Printer Models CT-4964 CT-6644 CT-7484 parts and diagrams operating maintenance principles of operation Yours for the postage but I doubt anybody wants them. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Oct 11 23:38:26 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:38:26 -0700 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question Message-ID: <031801d22442$7a3104c0$6e930e40$@bettercomputing.net> I asked this on vcfed and I don't know how much overlap there is here so I apologize if this is hitting all the same people over again. As some are aware I recently won an auction for 9 original Mark-8 boards (it has 4 1k RAM boards). To say I was elated would be an understatement - I certainly have some unusual stuff in my collection but this is something truly rare. And these are rare both in their own right and for what they are - unused. Pretty much spotless. I feel kind of in a bind about it now though. As an amateur historian, my first impulse is to stick em in a frame and hang em. Not even lay a finger on them. But I've a stubborn practical side. Like that guy that has an original AC Shelby Cobra and actually drives the thing. He was asked why he'd actually drive such a rare and valuable vehicle and he said 'What's the point of a car you don't drive?'. But then he can say that - that Shelby doesn't have zero miles on it. Realistically, I'm never likely to own a complete, vintage Mark-8. There are simply too few of them and I couldn't afford one even if one popped up (I could afford the computer, just not the divorce afterwards :)). So here I am with one path to having one that would be, by virtue of the boards, way more legit than a clone, but still have that 'built in 2016' asterisk beside its name for serious collectors. Anyway, I'm just soliciting opinions from those I haven't already heard from. This is just for the purpose of discussion, because I'm sure this isn't the first and won't be the last time somebody buying vintage gear runs into a situation like this. Whatever I end up doing, it will not happen for years anyway. I'm not at a skill level yet to pull it off, and I'd still like to build that clone first and see what I achieve before touching priceless originals. From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 12 00:02:17 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:02:17 +1000 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question In-Reply-To: <031801d22442$7a3104c0$6e930e40$@bettercomputing.net> References: <031801d22442$7a3104c0$6e930e40$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Mark-8 opinion question From: "Brad H" Date: Wed, October 12, 2016 2:38 pm To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I asked this on vcfed and I don't know how much overlap there is here so I > apologize if this is hitting all the same people over again. As some are > aware I recently won an auction for 9 original Mark-8 boards (it has 4 1k > RAM boards). To say I was elated would be an understatement - I certainly > have some unusual stuff in my collection but this is something truly rare. > > > > And these are rare both in their own right and for what they are - unused. > Pretty much spotless. > > > > I feel kind of in a bind about it now though. As an amateur historian, my > first impulse is to stick em in a frame and hang em. Not even lay a finger > on them. But I've a stubborn practical side. Like that guy that has an > original AC Shelby Cobra and actually drives the thing. He was asked why > he'd actually drive such a rare and valuable vehicle and he said 'What's the > point of a car you don't drive?'. But then he can say that - that Shelby > doesn't have zero miles on it. > > > > Realistically, I'm never likely to own a complete, vintage Mark-8. There > are simply too few of them and I couldn't afford one even if one popped up > (I could afford the computer, just not the divorce afterwards :)). So here > I am with one path to having one that would be, by virtue of the boards, way > more legit than a clone, but still have that 'built in 2016' asterisk beside > its name for serious collectors. > > > > Anyway, I'm just soliciting opinions from those I haven't already heard > from. This is just for the purpose of discussion, because I'm sure this > isn't the first and won't be the last time somebody buying vintage gear runs > into a situation like this. Whatever I end up doing, it will not happen for > years anyway. I'm not at a skill level yet to pull it off, and I'd still > like to build that clone first and see what I achieve before touching > priceless originals. > It sounds like you've already made your mind up. If it were me, I would not build on the originals. I would engage someone to repop the boards, their labour cost would be recouped with the sale of a few sets. What I would do is make sure the repops are easily identifiable as such so that they are not in future passed off as orignals at the same time as preserving your investment in the real thing. I recall seeing photos of a WWI biplane fighter being restored by the Smithsonian, and on the new pieces of wood they used to replace damaged or missing fillets, longerons and other parts of the airframe they had clearly stamped 'REPRODUCTION' so that future conservators would know what was original and what was not. Steve. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Oct 12 00:19:22 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 22:19:22 -0700 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: steven at malikoff.com Date: 2016-10-11 10:02 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mark-8 opinion question ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Mark-8 opinion question From:??? "Brad H" Date:??? Wed, October 12, 2016 2:38 pm To:????? "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I asked this on vcfed and I don't know how much overlap there is here so I > apologize if this is hitting all the same people over again.? As some are > aware I recently won an auction for 9 original Mark-8 boards (it has 4 1k > RAM boards).? To say I was elated would be an understatement - I certainly > have some unusual stuff in my collection but this is something truly rare. > > > > And these are rare both in their own right and for what they are - unused. > Pretty much spotless. > > > > I feel kind of in a bind about it now though.? As an amateur historian, my > first impulse is to stick em in a frame and hang em.? Not even lay a finger > on them.? But I've a stubborn practical side.? Like that guy that has an > original AC Shelby Cobra and actually drives the thing.? He was asked why > he'd actually drive such a rare and valuable vehicle and he said 'What's the > point of a car you don't drive?'.??? But then he can say that - that Shelby > doesn't have zero miles on it. > > > > Realistically, I'm never likely to own a complete, vintage Mark-8.? There > are simply too few of them and I couldn't afford one even if one popped up > (I could afford the computer, just not the divorce afterwards :)).? So here > I am with one path to having one that would be, by virtue of the boards, way > more legit than a clone, but still have that 'built in 2016' asterisk beside > its name for serious collectors. > > > > Anyway, I'm just soliciting opinions from those I haven't already heard > from.? This is just for the purpose of discussion, because I'm sure this > isn't the first and won't be the last time somebody buying vintage gear runs > into a situation like this.? Whatever I end up doing, it will not happen for > years anyway.? I'm not at a skill level yet to pull it off, and I'd still > like to build that clone first and see what I achieve before touching > priceless originals. > It sounds like you've already made your mind up. If it were me, I would not build on the originals. I would engage someone to repop the boards, their labour cost would be recouped with the sale of a few sets. What I would do is make sure the repops are easily identifiable as such so that they are not in future passed off as orignals at the same time as preserving your investment in the real thing. I recall seeing photos of a WWI biplane fighter being restored by the Smithsonian, and on the new pieces of wood they used to replace damaged or missing fillets, longerons and other parts of the airframe they had clearly stamped 'REPRODUCTION' so that future conservators would know > what was original and what was not. > Steve. Thanks Steve. No honestly.. I just like to talk about stuff like this. ?My mind is nowhere near made up. Regarding repopping.. I thought this had already been done by Obtronix or someone? I saw repop boards on ebay that I think the seller was trying to pass off as original. ?I'm wondering now how they made theirs and if in repopping mine I'd just be reinventing the wheel, or if someone could make them look that much more like the original. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 01:34:14 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 23:34:14 -0700 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2016 11:03 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > So there's another 11/35 up on eBait: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142135416325 > Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. Buy it this time before it goes up to $6500 next time??? http://www.ebay.com/itm/142146207101 From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 12 01:45:26 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:45:26 +1000 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4cd5450b61f80c74e8d540a450e8bced.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > On Oct 2, 2016 11:03 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >> >> So there's another 11/35 up on eBait: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/142135416325 >> > > Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. > > Buy it this time before it goes up to $6500 next time??? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142146207101 In the original listing a polite enquiry had been made to list the module numbers but the seller's reply was basically 'figure it out yourself from photo x'. Surely if someone asks a simple question like that then how difficult could it be to accomodate? Obviously too much effort for that seller it seems. Steve. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 02:29:13 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 00:29:13 -0700 Subject: Remember Data Printer Corp? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <955ec8c5-7020-14fe-c914-d5fc95015fda@jwsss.com> I had a 133 column line printer, and an 80 column Data Printer, Data products interfaces. Both drums. They could both move 3 x 5 cards at 10000+ lines / min when printing < 20 columns. They were variable speed, so when something fired on the first 20 columns, such as for addressing, the thing move like lighting. Very nice printers. wish I could have held onto them, but they were sold for good $$. the 80 column one probably printed some junk mail for you, was bought by a labeling company for a mass mailer of technical journals here in Orange Country. thanks Jim On 10/11/2016 9:29 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > While falling over Sun and DEC manuals I also found a complete set of > manuals for a great and massive Data Printer Corporation line printer > in four volumes: > > Data Printer Corp Chaintrain Line Printer > Models CT-4964 CT-6644 CT-7484 > > parts and diagrams > operating > maintenance > principles of operation > > Yours for the postage but I doubt anybody wants them. > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 02:57:18 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 00:57:18 -0700 Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface Message-ID: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> I found an interface I've never seen, a Fisher Rosemont Highway interface. I don't know much in the history of Dec / VMS, but am guessing this is for Vax system only. HIGHWAY-INTERFACE-49A8569X052-62-FISHER-ROSEMOUNT-DC6450X1-HA5-40B1745-W-CABKIT-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/371645465846 I found this flyer sheet about it with the info on the interface. I'm guessing if you don't have one of the central boxes, you have some expensive gold scrap in these boards. http://emersonprocess.com/systems/support/documentation/provox/docvue/Product%20Data%20Sheets/Communications/buDH6032.pdf The fact this reference is where it is suggests there must be embedded systems using it to justify the price though. Also the other manual referred to indicates that there is something that runs on NT, as well as a mention of AIX. http://emersonprocess.com/systems/support/documentation/provox/docvue/CHIP/P4_0/pnCHIP_NTp4.pdf thanks Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 03:01:03 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 01:01:03 -0700 Subject: PDP 8/A H221A 8K word memory Message-ID: <5cc08c4e-0e1e-5e13-5696-86c736dce3ad@jwsss.com> I won't bother posting a link to the auction, but have a question. Why would someone want $3,500 for this board over what H219's go for which are also 8K words? Just curious. Only obvious difference is a different core stack. thanks Jim From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 03:44:56 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 04:44:56 -0400 Subject: PDP 8/A H221A 8K word memory In-Reply-To: <5cc08c4e-0e1e-5e13-5696-86c736dce3ad@jwsss.com> References: <5cc08c4e-0e1e-5e13-5696-86c736dce3ad@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <014301d22464$e8f05600$bad10200$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 4:01 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PDP 8/A H221A 8K word memory I won't bother posting a link to the auction, but have a question. Why would someone want $3,500 for this board over what H219's go for which are also 8K words? Just curious. Only obvious difference is a different core stack. thanks Jim ----- Irrational Exuberance. It's also 18-bit and goes into a PDP-11. But that's not any concern of the seller, evidently :->. ----- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 04:02:56 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:02:56 +0100 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <4cd5450b61f80c74e8d540a450e8bced.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4cd5450b61f80c74e8d540a450e8bced.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <00e301d22467$6c873f40$4595bdc0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > steven at malikoff.com > Sent: 12 October 2016 07:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: 11/35 on eBait > > > On Oct 2, 2016 11:03 AM, "Noel Chiappa" > wrote: > >> > >> So there's another 11/35 up on eBait: > >> > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/142135416325 > >> > > > > Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. > > > > Buy it this time before it goes up to $6500 next time??? > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142146207101 > > In the original listing a polite enquiry had been made to list the module > numbers but the seller's reply was basically 'figure it out yourself from photo > x'. I think that most are pretty visible. When you sell something you get enough trolls as it is... > Surely if someone asks a simple question like that then how difficult could it > be to accomodate? Obviously too much effort for that seller it seems. I just wonder if they have seen that PDP/11 panels fetch stupid amounts and hoping a panel collector will buy it.... > > Steve. > > Dave From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 04:42:36 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 03:42:36 -0600 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:06 PM, jim stephens wrote: > The edge looks like Multibus, but the height looks too tall for standard > Multibus form factor. True, but it's not entirely uncommon for there to be over-height prototyping cards. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 04:44:12 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 03:44:12 -0600 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Do you have a prefered CW transition image format? My preference is Discferret. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 04:46:07 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 02:46:07 -0700 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <00e301d22467$6c873f40$4595bdc0$@gmail.com> References: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4cd5450b61f80c74e8d540a450e8bced.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <00e301d22467$6c873f40$4595bdc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489602cd-a2e7-174d-465f-7bc2b85d937a@jwsss.com> On 10/12/2016 2:02 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >>> > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/142146207101 >> >> >Surely if someone asks a simple question like that then how difficult could it >> >be to accomodate? Obviously too much effort for that seller it seems. > I just wonder if they have seen that PDP/11 panels fetch stupid amounts and hoping a panel collector will buy it.... > > > Dave I think he expected a bidding war to end up @ 5k. I think he does not realize what an auction kill that no shipping is. There are also two nice RL02's that are pickup only in New Jersey I'd probably bid on, but no ship. No interest in what the hands off Freighters and Craters would add to the cost. I recommended them to a previous list member's query, and the quote was $8500 for his quote. I didn't hear if they'd do part of the work only, or not, or give a breakdown, but in the RL02 case I suspect I'd have to have it all done for a huge price. Probably the same with the 11/35. I did get one of three 11/84's that sold recently and it was shipped in a box, but the weight may be lower on that system box than the 11/35 is. I may let him simmer and maybe sell it and make an offer near the end if it just sits there. The 11/04 is still sitting as well at the price they want for it several months on, and it isn't anywhere near as high, so these listings do sit around. thanks jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 04:53:57 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 02:53:57 -0700 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/12/2016 2:42 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:06 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> The edge looks like Multibus, but the height looks too tall for standard >> Multibus form factor. > True, but it's not entirely uncommon for there to be over-height > prototyping cards. I was at a friend's scrap operation, and in a 40 gallon drum of breakage there were three multibus boards in the pile. If one of them had not had a number of pins badly clobbered, I might have carried them off. FWIW the DIPs are not worth salvaging, going in the gold scrap bin now. with the boards. He has 6 bin boxes completely full of many years of salvage, starting to get to that backlog. thanks Jim BTW, toy du jour http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/10/part-of-satellite-spectral-analyzer.html From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 05:06:07 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 04:06:07 -0600 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > What Eric is working on is software that can decode disk formats that are > NOT necessarily WD/NEC FDC compatible! And writing a file similar to the > one created by IMD. > > That will most certainly NOT then be convertible by IMD into a Victor 9000 > disk! That's a good explanation. I was thinking of it as non-standard use of IMD format; the resulting IMD file would contain the logical contents of the Victor 9000 disk, but because the IMD format doesn't (yet) have suitable definitions for Victor 9000 format, the file would purport to contain IBM-compatible MFM sectors. I don't really have any plan for a way to convert these Victor 9000 pseudo-IMD files back into actual diskettes. I could write an imdtoflux program as a counterpart to the fluxtoimd program, which would help with a portion of the problem. > However, OTHER software, that understands the file systems could then > extract files. For example, if it is successful, then it might be possible > to take the Victor9000 IMD file produced by fluxtoimd, run it through IMD to > write that content onto a disk in a WD/NEC compatible format with > similarities of parameters other than encoding (eg. Chromemco?), and then > read files from that disk using XenoCopy or equivalent. I'm not sure how flexible XenoCopy is, but Victor 9000 format used Zoned CAV, so tracks have varying numbers of sectors, from 11 to 19. The pseudo-IMD file will preserve that organization. If the IMDU program doesn't get upset by the variable number of sectors per track, it might be able to extract the sector data into a raw binary filesystem image. Assuming that MS-DOS on the Victor 9000 uses the obvious mapping of FAT cluster numbers to track/head/sector, the resulting raw binary filesystem image might be usable with existing utilities for FAT filesystems, such as mtools. There's always been such a bewildering variety of mappings of CP/M blocks to track/head/sector that I wouldn't put any money on the same conversion working for Victor 9000 CP/M-86 disks. In both cases (MS-DOS and CP/M-86), if it proves necessary I'll whip up another simple utility to convert the pseudo-IMD file into a usable raw binary filesystem image. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 07:18:26 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 05:18:26 -0700 Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> References: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/2016 12:57 AM, jim stephens wrote: > I found an interface I've never seen, a Fisher Rosemont Highway > interface. I don't know much in the history of Dec / VMS, but am > guessing this is for Vax system only. > > HIGHWAY-INTERFACE-49A8569X052-62-FISHER-ROSEMOUNT-DC6450X1-HA5-40B1745-W-CABKIT-/ > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/371645465846 > > I found this flyer sheet about it with the info on the interface. I'm > guessing if you don't have one of the central boxes, you have some > expensive gold scrap in these boards. > > http://emersonprocess.com/systems/support/documentation/provox/docvue/Product%20Data%20Sheets/Communications/buDH6032.pdf > > > The fact this reference is where it is suggests there must be embedded > systems using it to justify the price though. Also the other manual > referred to indicates that there is something that runs on NT, as well > as a mention of AIX. > > http://emersonprocess.com/systems/support/documentation/provox/docvue/CHIP/P4_0/pnCHIP_NTp4.pdf > > > thanks > Jim I found an Allen Bradley box which uses this, not sure if it needs a hub, but points to the use of the hardware. Allen-Bradley-Data-Highway-Communication-Interface-1770-KF2-Ser-B-Rev-D-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/391591793086 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 07:51:38 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:51:38 +0100 Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: References: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I used to service a VAX 4000-200 that had one of those in, monitoring 17,000 endpoints in an oil refinery and crunching the numbers for a daily report to the site manager. If you don't have the peerway at the other end and the custom software it won't do anything. That machine's probably still in its home behind the panels in the control room. I had to head over there every january to do a PM on it even after the chap who ran it left and they didn't replace him. One year I 'serviced' it (not much to do, it was clean and dust free) then went back the next year to find the Dead Sergeant prompt (>>>). Booting it back up I discovered it had crashed 3 days after my previous visit and nobody noticed. Not much point in going back after that! On 12 October 2016 at 13:18, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 10/12/2016 12:57 AM, jim stephens wrote: > >> I found an interface I've never seen, a Fisher Rosemont Highway >> interface. I don't know much in the history of Dec / VMS, but am guessing >> this is for Vax system only. >> >> HIGHWAY-INTERFACE-49A8569X052-62-FISHER-ROSEMOUNT-DC6450X1-HA5-40B1745-W-CABKIT-/ >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/371645465846 >> >> I found this flyer sheet about it with the info on the interface. I'm >> guessing if you don't have one of the central boxes, you have some >> expensive gold scrap in these boards. >> >> http://emersonprocess.com/systems/support/documentation/prov >> ox/docvue/Product%20Data%20Sheets/Communications/buDH6032.pdf >> >> The fact this reference is where it is suggests there must be embedded >> systems using it to justify the price though. Also the other manual >> referred to indicates that there is something that runs on NT, as well as a >> mention of AIX. >> >> http://emersonprocess.com/systems/support/documentation/prov >> ox/docvue/CHIP/P4_0/pnCHIP_NTp4.pdf >> >> thanks >> Jim >> > I found an Allen Bradley box which uses this, not sure if it needs a hub, > but points to the use of the hardware. > > Allen-Bradley-Data-Highway-Communication-Interface-1770-KF2-Ser-B-Rev-D-/ > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/391591793086 > > > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 09:09:25 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:09:25 -0400 Subject: Remember Data Printer Corp? In-Reply-To: <955ec8c5-7020-14fe-c914-d5fc95015fda@jwsss.com> References: <955ec8c5-7020-14fe-c914-d5fc95015fda@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 12, 2016, at 3:29 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > I had a 133 column line printer, and an 80 column Data Printer, Data products interfaces. Both drums. They could both move 3 x 5 cards at 10000+ lines / min when printing < 20 columns. They were variable speed, so when something fired on the first 20 columns, such as for addressing, the thing move like lighting. The early PDP11 line printers were like that (20 column buffer for the 80 column model; 24 column buffer for the 132 column model). Later on they apparently went to full line buffering because the performance oddity you mentioned disappeared. Speaking of printer widths, the Dutch computer company Electrologica was odd in that their systems came with line printers that were 144 columns wide. I've never seen that anywhere else. paul From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 09:14:09 2016 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:14:09 -0500 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question In-Reply-To: <031801d22442$7a3104c0$6e930e40$@bettercomputing.net> References: <031801d22442$7a3104c0$6e930e40$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: I have built as reproduction Mark8, as accurate as possible. Check the link out below to see photos. Would be happy to help you in your journey to building a complete system, let me know I can help! https://goo.gl/photos/X6rXFrVMoJvRXGAe7 -Nick From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 09:33:56 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:33:56 -0400 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question In-Reply-To: References: <031801d22442$7a3104c0$6e930e40$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: My opinion...build it right using a reasonable set of parts from the era or just leave the boards alone. I would be wary of winging it. b From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Oct 12 09:56:31 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 07:56:31 -0700 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question Message-ID: That's pretty much my attitude. ?I would never even consider building these without correct, vintage parts. ?And I can already see a number of show stoppers.. including the 8263s. ?I have some of those but they're all 1977 vintage, which is okay for a clone but totally wrong otherwise.? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-10-12 7:33 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mark-8 opinion question My opinion...build it right using a reasonable set of parts from the era or just leave the boards alone.? I would be wary of winging it. b From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Oct 12 09:59:09 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 07:59:09 -0700 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question Message-ID: Nice! ?I see you even got fab house marks! ?Where did you get the PCB stock? ?I hate how modern the stuff I've found looks. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Nick Allen Date: 2016-10-12 7:14 AM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Mark-8 opinion question I have built as reproduction Mark8, as accurate as possible.? Check the link out below to see photos.? Would be happy to help you in your journey to building a complete system, let me know I can help! https://goo.gl/photos/X6rXFrVMoJvRXGAe7 -Nick From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 10:03:30 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 11:03:30 -0400 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-10-12 7:33 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Mark-8 opinion question My opinion...build it right using a reasonable set of parts from the era or just leave the boards alone. I would be wary of winging it. b On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > > > That's pretty much my attitude. I would never even consider building > these without correct, vintage parts. And I can already see a number of > show stoppers.. including the 8263s. I have some of those but they're all > 1977 vintage, which is okay for a clone but totally wrong otherwise. > > > Basically you're in the position of having to source all of the parts from that boards year, or earlier. Then buy solder from 1974. When will it end? How perfect? Then what do you have? This subject has come up before. If I was really into this project (I already have plenty!)...I'd make an exhibit featuring the unpopulated boards next to a replica that is running with a teletype.. b From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Oct 12 10:26:14 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:26:14 -0700 Subject: Mark-8 opinion question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <034d01d2249c$f97c3290$ec7497b0$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 8:04 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mark-8 opinion question -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-10-12 7:33 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Mark-8 opinion question My opinion...build it right using a reasonable set of parts from the era or just leave the boards alone. I would be wary of winging it. b On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > > > That's pretty much my attitude. I would never even consider building > these without correct, vintage parts. And I can already see a number > of show stoppers.. including the 8263s. I have some of those but > they're all > 1977 vintage, which is okay for a clone but totally wrong otherwise. > > > >Basically you're in the position of having to source all of the parts from that boards year, or earlier. Then buy solder >from 1974. When will it end? How perfect? Then what do you have? This subject has come up before. >If I was really into this project (I already have plenty!)...I'd make an exhibit featuring the unpopulated boards next to a >replica that is running with a teletype.. >b I think there is a tiny bit of leeway. I have read of Mark-8s that were built as late as 1976. This is kind of where all this stuff gets fuzzy. Is a 1974 Mark-8 project built in 1976 an 'original'? Then supposing you have a 1974 unit and one of the hard to replace chips dies.. I think standard practice is to replace it with whatever is available to get it working while keeping the original for show. So there's a bit of wiggle room there also. But taking a soldering iron to those pristine boards. That's where I feel a line being drawn. I kind of like your idea. As a matter of fact, I just bought an ASR33 which is arriving today. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 12 12:21:02 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:21:02 -0700 Subject: large Wire wrap cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/12/2016 02:42 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:06 PM, jim stephens > wrote: >> The edge looks like Multibus, but the height looks too tall for >> standard Multibus form factor. > > True, but it's not entirely uncommon for there to be over-height > prototyping cards. Indded. The rationale was that when it was time to go from WW to PCB, you'd get the same functionality in a standard-sized PCB. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 16:08:39 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:08:39 -0400 Subject: power supply DEC Expansion Interface RZ5X Message-ID: WTB $$ power supply DEC Expansion Interface RZ5X. I guess I'd take a busted RZ5X that has a good supply too. Located Landenberg, PA contact me via vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm if you have one for sale Here is a pic of the back, it's part of my MicroVAX 3100 system. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/MicroVAX-3100/DEC_StorageExpansion_RZ5X-AA_rear.JPG I did not see anything on Ebay that was a for-sure match. b From w.f.j.mueller at retro11.de Wed Oct 12 16:22:26 2016 From: w.f.j.mueller at retro11.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:22:26 +0200 Subject: Where are the cctech archives before November 2014 ? Message-ID: Hi, I detected that links I had to previous postings where invalid. Looking at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ I see that the archives before November 2014 are lost. When I look into the WayBackMachine I see https://web.archive.org/web/20141025062159/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150103042513/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ that between October 25th. 2014 and January 3rd, 2015 some incident happened which wiped out the archives before November 2014. How comes that the 'classical computing' lost it's memory ?? With best regards, Walter P.S.: It's a bit astonishing to me that a list like cctech, which is in some ways about history, has lost it's own history, and even doesn't seem to care about it. From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 19:45:23 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:45:23 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon Message-ID: Update: After removing all the boards, checking jumper settings, etc. and reinstalling everything again. I am please to announce some progress. The PDP-11/23 now boots up to the diagnostic monitor. Thanks very much to people who replied with technical help and particularly to Glen Slick who helped with board identification and configuration and help me fix the QBUS slot assignments. The original slot assignments were wrong and the bus termination was not at the end of the QBUS. The current slot assignments are: Row 1: AB - M8186, CD - 256KB memory Row 2: AB - DSD disk interface, CD - grant continuity Row 3: AB - M8028 DLV11-F async interface / console port Row 4: Row 5: Row 6: Row 7: AB - M8016 KPV11 power fail / line clock Row 8: Row 9: ABCD - M8012 BDV11 diag ROM / QBUS termination I have added a few pictures here: http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/pdp11/ Next Steps 1) Find the manual for the diagnostic monitor to figure out how to run some test. 2) Locate some 8" floppies with RT-11 loaded and connect the floppy drive From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 12 21:29:25 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:29:25 -0500 Subject: Where are the cctech archives before November 2014 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d224f9$9dc118a0$d94349e0$@classiccmp.org> Walter.... I think you need to ask a few questions before you toss that kind of nonsense out. For your info - this is a hobby. It is done in spare time. The time period you speak of - the archives have NOT been lost. Because unlike what you intone - we do care. Those archives are safe and sound, just not in a publicly accessible format. One of our kind listmembers has been working for eons to reconstruct the publicly viewable content from them. I will tell him that you are going to volunteer to help him. J -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Walter F.J. Mueller Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 4:22 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Where are the cctech archives before November 2014 ? Hi, I detected that links I had to previous postings where invalid. Looking at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ I see that the archives before November 2014 are lost. When I look into the WayBackMachine I see https://web.archive.org/web/20141025062159/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150103042513/http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ that between October 25th. 2014 and January 3rd, 2015 some incident happened which wiped out the archives before November 2014. How comes that the 'classical computing' lost it's memory ?? With best regards, Walter P.S.: It's a bit astonishing to me that a list like cctech, which is in some ways about history, has lost it's own history, and even doesn't seem to care about it. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Oct 12 14:07:59 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! Message-ID: Everyone should experience the joy of connecting to an authentic dial-up bulletin board service. That?s our story here at Vintage Computer Federation and we?re sticking to it. :) It?s why we ordered an 8-port analog PBX with a GSM module today: http://www.excelltel.com/en/enproductslist.asp?id=612 Our plan is to connect this to a PC running the MajorBBS software. Visitors at our NJ museum and at Vintage Computer Festival East (or heck, why not bring it with us to VCF West too?) will get to pick from a selection of vintage computers, hear a dial tone, hear the handshake, and be productive at 300-2400 bps. People could also telnet in over the Internet and, in phase two, dial in through the GSM connection. We?ll share an update this winter when the PBX arrives. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 14:09:30 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:09:30 -0500 Subject: DECwriter II and Decwriter III engineering drawings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Richard, Are they spoken for? Thanks, Paul On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 11:26 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > I have fallen a across a bound set of LA36 and LA120 engineering drawings. > Anybody want them for the cost of mailing them? > > Remember the good old days when you not only got a printer but detailed > service information including a big set of engineering drawings? Sigh. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those > Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Oct 12 14:17:04 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 19:17:04 +0000 Subject: Remember Data Printer Corp? In-Reply-To: References: <955ec8c5-7020-14fe-c914-d5fc95015fda@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC3123@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:09 AM > Speaking of printer widths, the Dutch computer company Electrologica was > odd in that their systems came with line printers that were 144 columns > wide. I've never seen that anywhere else. The IBM 1443 printer, originally part of the 1440 system but available on the 1800 system as well, was 144 columns wide. Type bar rather than a train like the 1403; moved back and forth as hammers struck the desired letter. Ugly ugly type face. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 12 14:46:30 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 20:46:30 +0100 Subject: Micro Fiche Library. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57FE9316.8070905@ntlworld.com> On 04/10/16 05:49, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi All > > I have just had a huge DEC Miro Fiche library given to me. > > It has the portable (weighs a ton) reader with it. > > On trying it out. I found the results were awful. > A good clean of the light path and removal of some disintegrating foam > improved things no end. > That left two issues: > > 1. The reader was for x 42 but the fiches are x52. > > 2. The plastic fiche holder consisting of two sheets of stiff > and clear plastic connected together at one end is scratched to hell. > Any idea eactly which fiche reader you have? I have one that DEC FS used to lug around on site visits. I'll dig it out tomorrow (if I remember) and make a note of exactly which one I have. I've never noticed an issue with reading the fiche I have - but then most of my fiche came with the reader and so obviously matched up. But I do have some fiche that came to me separately (not all DEC fiche, but all DEC-related) and that all looks good too. How can you tell whether fiche is intended for 42x or 52x or whatever? (I had a quick look at one or two and I couldn't see anythig obvious ...) BTW: I did semi-catalogue what I have (i.e. listing the fiche part number and the documents contained therein). Has anyone thought of putting together some sort of registry? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ethan at 757.org Wed Oct 12 15:32:04 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> References: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I found an interface I've never seen, a Fisher Rosemont Highway interface. I > don't know much in the history of Dec / VMS, but am guessing this is for Vax > system only. > HIGHWAY-INTERFACE-49A8569X052-62-FISHER-ROSEMOUNT-DC6450X1-HA5-40B1745-W-CABKIT-/ > http://www.ebay.com/itm/371645465846 > I found this flyer sheet about it with the info on the interface. I'm > guessing if you don't have one of the central boxes, you have some expensive > gold scrap in these boards. Some years ago I was talking to Virginia DOT about access to camera feeds in the Hampton Roads (Southeastern Virginia) region. I eventually got access to the ftp site where the pics were dumped out every 5 minutes. The listing of cameras was screen shots taken from an OpenVMS control application that had the camera names and locations on maps, as well as digital signage and some other functions. I was kind of surprised since this was late in the VMS game, perhaps mid 2000's. And the system was still being built. Not sure if that board is a part of that setup but it was VMS. Probably still have the screenshots somewhere. -- Ethan O'Toole From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 15:56:22 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:56:22 -0700 Subject: Video clip from ABC Nightline 1981 with Steve Jobs Message-ID: If you read further, I decided to post because of the number of machines I've either worked on or owned which were in this. I think for instance the terminals @ about 1:29 are Datamedia. I had several of the beasts. "Academic researchers... is the narration" https://youtu.be/3H-Y-D3-j-M Laughed at some of the discussions in the last half, but worth watching. Has about as much of Job's in it as one can stomach. And is probably before the cult of the Fruit company thing was taking hold. Scenes showing the Apple2 or ][ as some will want, and the Apple3 are shown from the factory. Also appears that Apple was operating out of a hive of buildings, not a central one at the time. Five years into Apple's operation. Thanks jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 16:38:48 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: References: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Could Traf-o-data be revived? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 20:09:02 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:09:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/23 system for sale in Portland Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ba137e-cb58-588f-ec8d-4ef20eac4271@jwsss.com> On 10/12/2016 5:45 PM, Scott Baker wrote: > Update: After removing all the boards, checking jumper settings, etc. and > reinstalling everything again. I am please to announce some progress. The > PDP-11/23 now boots up to the diagnostic monitor. Very nice. I think you might be in ODT. Not sure that there are a lot of diagnostics there but great progress. thanks jim From chd at chdickman.com Wed Oct 12 20:14:48 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:14:48 -0400 Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: References: <5dd54e52-6492-96eb-220f-9955478cc34b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 8:18 AM, jim stephens wrote: > I found an Allen Bradley box which uses this, not sure if it needs a hub, > but points to the use of the hardware. > > Allen-Bradley-Data-Highway-Communication-Interface-1770-KF2-Ser-B-Rev-D-/ > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/391591793086 > > Data Highway brings back memories that aren't that old really. Its an industrial communications network produced by Allen Bradley. I've used it mostly for what would be called a machine cell: HMI connected to a machine controller and then some ancillary equipment. It was 156k bps (there were other speeds too depending on cable length), token passing, multi-drop network over shielded twisted pair. The 1770-KF2 is sort of AUI for Data Highway. It allowed a computer or PLC with a serial port to communicate on the network. I remember the Pyramid Integrator advertisements that include VAX connections. PLC programming software was offered for VMS. That was all too high end for the industries we were involved in. We used Compaq Portable 3 with 1784-KT cards in the 3 slot ISA box that plugged on the back. Data Highway was still reasonably current with Rockwell until ethernet became dirt cheap and ubiquitous. -chuck From rlloken at telus.net Wed Oct 12 20:28:47 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 19:28:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: uB4VbJK9ufdZcuB4WbAB2X References: uB4VbJK9ufdZcuB4WbAB2X Message-ID: I received seven requests for the Sun Workstation manual. I guess I will draw a name from a hat or something... -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Wed Oct 12 20:30:48 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 19:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DECwriter II and Decwriter III engineering drawings In-Reply-To: uB7FbJL8tfdZcuB7HbABVo References: uB7FbJL8tfdZcuB7HbABVo Message-ID: And five requests for these manuals. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Wed Oct 12 20:33:38 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 19:33:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Remember Data Printer Corp? In-Reply-To: uBAcbjCNIrAHpuBAdbdw5K References: uBAcbjCNIrAHpuBAdbdw5K Message-ID: The offer of DPC manuals led to many happy reminscenses but only one request for the manuals (with a promise to scan them). Are there scans of these manuals available on-line? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Oct 12 21:24:30 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 19:24:30 -0700 Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pick someone who will scan it and put it on a public site, bitsavers etc -pete On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > I received seven requests for the Sun Workstation manual. I guess I will > draw a name from a hat or something... > > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those > Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black > > From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Wed Oct 12 22:09:35 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:09:35 -0400 Subject: DECwriter II and Decwriter III engineering drawings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/12/2016 9:30 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > And five requests for these manuals. > Is someone going to scan them? Have they been scanned already? I guess I should look :-P I just picked up a LA120 that's been in a storage unit since the mid 90's and I 'll need to debug it. John H. Reinhardt From rlloken at telus.net Wed Oct 12 22:40:25 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:40:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DECwriter II and Decwriter III engineering drawings In-Reply-To: uWOqbz9H4EcWquWOrbwkjx References: uWOqbz9H4EcWquWOrbwkjx Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2016, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > On 10/12/2016 9:30 PM, Richard Loken wrote: >> And five requests for these manuals. >> > Is someone going to scan them? Have they been scanned already? I guess I > should look :-P I too would like to know if these manuals have been scanned already. If good scans are already available I can send them off to somebody without any guilt but otherwise I should send them who intends to see them scanned. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 12 23:13:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:13:19 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions Message-ID: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 someone needs to grab those 11/45's! From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 23:37:53 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:37:53 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> On 10/12/16 9:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 > > someone needs to grab those 11/45's! > > Thanks for the tip! Against my better judgement I put in a bid on the one without the trim on the faceplate... - Josh From other at oryx.us Wed Oct 12 23:47:33 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:47:33 -0500 Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: References: uB4VbJK9ufdZcuB4WbAB2X Message-ID: <57FF11E5.4010801@oryx.us> any chance that it could be scanned, then shared that way? Thanks, Jerry On 10/12/16 08:28 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > I received seven requests for the Sun Workstation manual. I guess I will > draw a name from a hat or something... > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 23:53:30 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:53:30 -0700 Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: <57FF11E5.4010801@oryx.us> References: <57FF11E5.4010801@oryx.us> Message-ID: <21210f5e-1fca-4218-c634-390398a43e77@jwsss.com> On 10/12/2016 9:47 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > any chance that it could be scanned, then shared that way? > > Thanks, > > Jerry Something like what is on this page? http://www.solivant.com/sun100/ Bitsavers: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sun/sun1/ thanks Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 13 00:05:33 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 22:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: from "ethan@757.org" at "Oct 12, 16 04:32:04 pm" Message-ID: <201610130505.u9D55Y6J39125416@floodgap.com> > Some years ago I was talking to Virginia DOT about access to camera feeds > in the Hampton Roads (Southeastern Virginia) region. I eventually got > access to the ftp site where the pics were dumped out every 5 minutes. > > The listing of cameras was screen shots taken from an OpenVMS control > application that had the camera names and locations on maps, as well as > digital signage and some other functions. I was kind of surprised since > this was late in the VMS game, perhaps mid 2000's. And the system was > still being built. > > Not sure if that board is a part of that setup but it was VMS. Probably > still have the screenshots somewhere. I'm sure there are fellow roadgeeks on this list, so I find VMS(*) in this context to be thoroughly ambiguous. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-message_sign From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 00:08:43 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 22:08:43 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/2016 9:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On 10/12/16 9:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 >> >> someone needs to grab those 11/45's! >> >> > > Thanks for the tip! Against my better judgement I put in a bid on the > one without the trim on the faceplate... > > - Josh > > Will you help get one of the 747 full motion boxes back to my house? they have several of those, plus several DC-9 simulators. :-) Anyone interested in Gould or in Evans & Sutherland should look thru all the listings. There is one tall cabinet that appears full of E&S equipment. thanks Jim From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 13 00:37:02 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 22:37:02 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent, poorly, from my iPad. > On Oct 12, 2016, at 10:08 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > >> On 10/12/2016 9:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> On 10/12/16 9:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 >>> >>> someone needs to grab those 11/45's! >> >> Thanks for the tip! Against my better judgement I put in a bid on the one without the trim on the faceplate... >> >> - Josh > Will you help get one of the 747 full motion boxes back to my house? they have several of those, plus several DC-9 simulators. :-) > > Anyone interested in Gould or in Evans & Sutherland should look thru all the listings. There is one tall cabinet that appears full of E&S equipment. > > thanks > Jim How about the General Precision Link simulator computer? I have the front panel, but here is the whole computer. Too bad it would cost a fortune to ship otherwise I'd go for it. Bob From ed at groenenberg.net Thu Oct 13 00:54:53 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 07:54:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <59979.81.30.38.129.1476338093.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Thu, October 13, 2016 06:13, Al Kossow wrote: > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 > > someone needs to grab those 11/45's! > > There are a few DEC terminals & printers too, as well as a Documentum M200 punchcard reader. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 01:04:43 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:04:43 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> On 10/12/16 10:08 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 10/12/2016 9:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> On 10/12/16 9:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 >>> >>> someone needs to grab those 11/45's! >>> >>> >> >> Thanks for the tip! Against my better judgement I put in a bid on >> the one without the trim on the faceplate... >> >> - Josh >> >> > Will you help get one of the 747 full motion boxes back to my house? > they have several of those, plus several DC-9 simulators. :-) > > Anyone interested in Gould or in Evans & Sutherland should look thru > all the listings. There is one tall cabinet that appears full of E&S > equipment. > > thanks > Jim > Sure thing :) Any idea what this might be? Looks interesting, but not a lot of information to go by apart from the "Display Systems Incorporated" badges... https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Portable-simulator-display-screens/32464587/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464587 - Josh From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 01:07:02 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:07:02 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> Message-ID: someone should enquire about the raised floor On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 10/12/16 10:08 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > >> >> On 10/12/2016 9:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> >>> On 10/12/16 9:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>>> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 >>>> >>>> someone needs to grab those 11/45's! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Thanks for the tip! Against my better judgement I put in a bid on the >>> one without the trim on the faceplate... >>> >>> - Josh >>> >>> >>> Will you help get one of the 747 full motion boxes back to my house? >> they have several of those, plus several DC-9 simulators. :-) >> >> Anyone interested in Gould or in Evans & Sutherland should look thru all >> the listings. There is one tall cabinet that appears full of E&S equipment. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> > Sure thing :) > > Any idea what this might be? Looks interesting, but not a lot of > information to go by apart from the "Display Systems Incorporated" badges... > > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Portable-simulator-di > splay-screens/32464587/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464587 > > - Josh > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 13 01:11:40 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 02:11:40 -0400 Subject: NWA auctions Message-ID: <606ef.20e0e407.45307f9c@aol.com> I suspect the bidding will be brisk with the peripherals... also be shure to see the frame with the documstion card reader In a message dated 10/12/2016 9:38:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, derschjo at gmail.com writes: On 10/12/16 9:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 > > someone needs to grab those 11/45's! > > Thanks for the tip! Against my better judgement I put in a bid on the one without the trim on the faceplate... - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 01:44:48 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:44:48 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013054950.GA28140@lonesome.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013054950.GA28140@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <56b2e2c5-bef0-fdd0-7791-029875e5224c@gmail.com> On 10/12/16 10:49 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > please someone tell me they are going to bid on the 11/45, and the > Printronix as well, to stop me from driving all the way up there > from Austin. Thanks. > > mcl > I bid on one of the 11/45s (the ugly one in the single rack), but feel free to drive up for the other one and the Printronix :). - Josh From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 13 01:46:18 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 01:46:18 -0500 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013054950.GA28140@lonesome.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013054950.GA28140@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20161013064618.GA28324@lonesome.com> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 12:49:50AM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote: > Printronix Printronixes, plural. fwiw I also went through the "day 2" auction and although there are some open-frame aluminum racks, most of the items of interest to this list are in the "day 1" auction. No, I'm not just saying this because there's something really cool I want to bid on in the "day 2" auction :-) mcl From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 02:10:59 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:10:59 -0700 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> Session 9 here gets us into microcode RAM trouble: https://youtu.be/VWQ7hbV7bN0 Ken?s corresponding blog article http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day-9-tracing.html Marc And it finally boots on session 8! https://youtu.be/9OQMhvArI9g > On Sep 10, 2016, at 7:46 PM, CuriousMarc > wrote: > > Video of session 6 is up: > https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 > Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. > > > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long > why: https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr > > Marc > > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc > wrote: > Next Episode: > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html > Marc > > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto > machines > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc > wrote: > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 > Should be up in a few minutes. > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC > (former Xerox Parc) at the session. Marc > > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try > that this week-end. Marc > > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On > the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > Marc > > There are only two entries right now: > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > Marc > > > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 13 02:11:49 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:11:49 +0200 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 09:13:19PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 > > someone needs to grab those 11/45's! > What are those modern looking peripherals? Looks like storage, it might be the real find here. Also don't miss out on the VT330 (color graphics terminal!) and Documation card reader. I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. /P From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 02:19:39 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:19:39 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <0b0a16ef-4e13-9d75-2244-8e9a5b10b06c@gmail.com> On 10/13/16 12:11 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 09:13:19PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 >> >> someone needs to grab those 11/45's! >> > What are those modern looking peripherals? Looks like storage, it might > be the real find here. > > Also don't miss out on the VT330 (color graphics terminal!) and > Documation card reader. > > I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. > > /P > The WBC 3000s in the 11/45 rack are RK05 emulators, from what I've been able to determine. The Systems 32/77 is a Gould/SEL machine. 32-bit, ECL. I don't know too much about it, but it's cool looking. Wish I had the space... - Josh From malcolm at avitech.com.au Thu Oct 13 02:25:30 2016 From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (malcolm at avitech.com.au) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 18:25:30 +1100 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway Message-ID: <007901d22522$fbe74840$f3b5d8c0$@avitech.com.au> I have a collection of DEC items available for sale, swap or giveaway. They are mostly VAX or MicroVAX items, as well as a few PDP-11 items. These are in Melbourne, Australia. I appreciate this may not be of much interest to the rest of the world. If interested, please take a look here -> http://avitech.com.au/?p=1285 Thanks. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 02:27:37 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:27:37 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013064618.GA28324@lonesome.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013054950.GA28140@lonesome.com> <20161013064618.GA28324@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/2016 11:46 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 12:49:50AM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote: >> Printronix > Printronixes, plural. > > fwiw I also went through the "day 2" auction and although there are some > open-frame aluminum racks, most of the items of interest to this list are > in the "day 1" auction. > > No, I'm not just saying this because there's something really cool I want > to bid on in the "day 2" auction :-) > > mcl > There appears to be a Documation M200 card reader in one photo, though not called out. thanks Jim From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 13 02:28:48 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 03:28:48 -0400 Subject: NWA auctions Message-ID: <62ea0.356bad3e.453091b0@aol.com> they were pretty famous for running simulators for pilot training Ed# _www.smacc.org_ (http://www.smacc.org) In a message dated 10/13/2016 12:19:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, derschjo at gmail.com writes: The Systems 32/77 is a Gould/SEL machine. 32-bit, ECL. I don't know too much about it, but it's cool looking. Wish I had the space... From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 02:28:47 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:28:47 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 10/13/2016 12:11 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Also don't miss out on the VT330 (color graphics terminal!) and > Documation card reader. > > I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? > /P > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 02:33:47 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:33:47 -0700 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway In-Reply-To: <007901d22522$fbe74840$f3b5d8c0$@avitech.com.au> References: <007901d22522$fbe74840$f3b5d8c0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: <9dc4bb81-f9c7-5e56-6a8f-3c556d2c4b4b@jwsss.com> On 10/13/2016 12:25 AM, malcolm at avitech.com.au wrote: > I have a collection of DEC items available for sale, swap or giveaway. > > They are mostly VAX or MicroVAX items, as well as a few PDP-11 items. > > These are in Melbourne, Australia. I appreciate this may not be of much > interest to the rest of the world. > > If interested, please take a look here -> http://avitech.com.au/?p=1285 > > Thanks. I passed this along to a friend who is local to you, Dave Rose. I don't know if he has any interest, but he may know some old fart collectors in his circle of friends around you that would be interested. I'd love to make some deals if we were closer. thanks Jim From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 13 00:49:50 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:49:50 -0500 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161013054950.GA28140@lonesome.com> please someone tell me they are going to bid on the 11/45, and the Printronix as well, to stop me from driving all the way up there from Austin. Thanks. mcl From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 02:35:51 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:35:51 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8072d018-a1c6-7475-3a3a-b44c18611e7f@jwsss.com> On 10/12/2016 11:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Any idea what this might be? Looks interesting, but not a lot of > information to go by apart from the "Display Systems Incorporated" > badges... > > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Portable-simulator-display-screens/32464587/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464587 > > > - Josh There is a horribly stylized some set of letters in front of the Display Systems Incorporated. I don't know if I could figure it out even if the photo was close up and focused. I hate designers. Typical crap they pull, make logos with letter you can't figure out if you tried. The blurry blob to the left the tie first "D" is some set of letters or a word, can't tell. thanks Jim From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Oct 13 03:20:01 2016 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 08:20:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <318589712.9314001.1476346801034@mail.yahoo.com> >https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 > >someone needs to grab those 11/45's! Again on the wrong side of the pond :((( ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From gerardcjat at free.fr Thu Oct 13 07:40:12 2016 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:40:12 +0200 Subject: IBM 6715 / actionwriter "daizy" typewriter "RS232" port ?? Message-ID: I know it is a long shoot ! The IBM 6715 / Actionwriter was one of the last daizy wheel typewriter made by IBM Germany. ( said to be made to last at least half century, German design ;-) ) It has "kind" of a RS232 port on the back, I was unable to find any information on this port which was intended to support two "extremely rare" !!! IBM options one beeing a REAL RS232 port, the other some kind of display of the two last line typed. I wonder if someone has even connected this typewriter to a computer. It would be fun to use it like a "modern" TTY but I think the problem is probably that this typewriter expect a "lot of" (??) proprietary commands to set type spacing, margins, baud rate etc .... Any advice ?? Any help ?? From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 18:14:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 19:14:26 -0400 Subject: 1966-68 Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516 Console Message-ID: I recently came upon the console for a Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516, which is the older brother of the Honeywell Kitchen computer (DDP-316). Took a lot of photos: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655 Bill From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 12:53:08 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 10:53:08 -0700 Subject: Bootable 8" floppy needed for PDP-11/23 Message-ID: Hi, I have a PDP-11/23 system with a DSD-440 dual 8" floppy drive. On reset, it prints: 28 START? and waits for the operator to insert a bootable 8" floppy and type DY0. The problem is I do not have a bootable 8" floppy. The DSD-440 should be compatible with either RX01 or RX02. Can anyone on this list help me out with a bootable 8" floppy? I will gladly pay for the floppy + shippng costs. Thanks, Scott PS: Pictures of the system can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/pdp11 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Oct 13 03:44:22 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:44:22 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 12 Oct 2016 22:05:33 -0700 (PDT)" <201610130505.u9D55Y6J39125416@floodgap.com> References: Message-ID: <01Q627RRF7U20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> > > I'm sure there are fellow roadgeeks on this list, so I find VMS(*) in this > context to be thoroughly ambiguous. :) > Well, at least you can be fairly sure it's not this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_milking I wonder if this has any hardware in common with VAX vacuum cleaners? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 13 04:41:25 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 05:41:25 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! Message-ID: <66c28.457f63b3.4530b0c5@aol.com> Great! 110 dial up for those of us with our teletype? Heck with free nationwide long distance cross country connects will not be financially painful! sounds fun.... In a message dated 10/13/2016 12:35:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at snarc.net writes: Everyone should experience the joy of connecting to an authentic dial-up bulletin board service. That?s our story here at Vintage Computer Federation and we?re sticking to it. :) It?s why we ordered an 8-port analog PBX with a GSM module today: http://www.excelltel.com/en/enproductslist.asp?id=612 Our plan is to connect this to a PC running the MajorBBS software. Visitors at our NJ museum and at Vintage Computer Festival East (or heck, why not bring it with us to VCF West too?) will get to pick from a selection of vintage computers, hear a dial tone, hear the handshake, and be productive at 300-2400 bps. People could also telnet in over the Internet and, in phase two, dial in through the GSM connection. We?ll share an update this winter when the PBX arrives. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Thu Oct 13 05:07:41 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:07:41 +0100 Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: <01Q627RRF7U20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <201610130505.u9D55Y6J39125416@floodgap.com> <01Q627RRF7U20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: For a moment there I thought I was getting work emails sent to my personal account! I happen to work for a company that is contracted to build and maintain Highway Control systems for Highways England (Formerly Highways Agency) I can't say I've seen anything that old in production now, but we used to have PDP-8s and 11s long before I joined the company. Until fairly recently we were using Alphastation DS10s and DS15s to control Variable Message Signs (a staple of British motorways, basically a large orange dot-matrix display on an overhead gantry for anyone who hasn't seen them, they privide traffic and weather information, and are used to set speed limits and close lanes), MIDAS systems (Inductive loops in the road for measuring the flow of traffic), traffic cameras, and I believe the Tamar Bridge and Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing too. There's a new-ish HP Integrity server running OpenVMS still, no idea what it's for. We're mainly a x86 + Linux shop now. We still have 7 of these Alphas on the scrap pile, which I've spent a couple of weeks trying to get permission to save. -Tom On 13 October 2016 at 09:44, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > I'm sure there are fellow roadgeeks on this list, so I find VMS(*) in > this > > context to be thoroughly ambiguous. :) > > > > Well, at least you can be fairly sure it's not this one: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_milking > > I wonder if this has any hardware in common with VAX vacuum cleaners? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 05:14:44 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:14:44 +0100 Subject: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface In-Reply-To: References: <201610130505.u9D55Y6J39125416@floodgap.com> <01Q627RRF7U20000G3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 13 October 2016 at 11:07, Tom Moss wrote: > Until fairly recently we were using Alphastation DS10s and DS15s to control > Variable Message Signs (a staple of British motorways, basically a large > orange dot-matrix display on an overhead gantry for anyone who hasn't seen > them, they privide traffic and weather information, and are used to set > speed limits and close lanes), MIDAS systems (Inductive loops in the road > for measuring the flow of traffic), traffic cameras, and I believe the > Tamar Bridge and Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing too. > That sounds like the company I nearly joined in 2001 but didn't because I'd have had to commute to Guisborough every day. They wanted VMS people for new highway info systems for the new managed motorways they're still building now. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 13 05:26:31 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 06:26:31 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! Message-ID: <68475.4ed3e71a.4530bb57@aol.com> Please add 100 Baud Evan! Ed# In a message dated 10/13/2016 12:35:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at snarc.net writes: 300-2400 bps From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 13 05:27:02 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 06:27:02 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! Message-ID: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> I mean please add 110 Baud Evan! Ed# In a message dated 10/13/2016 12:35:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at snarc.net writes: 300-2400 bps From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 05:27:48 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 06:27:48 -0400 Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Pick someone who will scan it and put it on a public site, bitsavers etc > > -pete > I believe what Richard has is a later published revision of this document on Bitsavers already. This one is a draft copy : http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sun/sun1/800-0345_Sun-1_System_Reference_Manual_Jul82.pdf I will absolutely be willing to scan it and I was one of the one's who originally requested it as well, Santo From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 05:39:27 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 06:39:27 -0400 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Eric, First off, thanks for attempting this. I spent last night trying to recreate a disk using the CP/M-86 streams I had posted with the Kryoflux and failed. I'm going to play with it a little until I can get a working reproduction so I would not rely on those Kryoflux streams just yet. I am guessing the only way I can reproduce a disk is through the Kryoflux streams written back to a disk but I can't seem to do that. I noticed that Discferret had a wiki page on the Victor 9000 format. It looks like it handled the format but it looks like it is a dead project and I'm guessing you can't get Discferret boards anymore. I was thinking of trying some of the Commodore GCR formats to see if that might do it (being that it is theoretically close except for the vartiable speed track part) but it looks like you can't write back IMG files that it creates. I'll have to do some playing around first but once I figure it out, I'll let you know. Since this is the very first disk I am trying on the Kryoflux, I'll pick something easy and try to reproduce the disk. Santo On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > What Eric is working on is software that can decode disk formats that are > > NOT necessarily WD/NEC FDC compatible! And writing a file similar to the > > one created by IMD. > > > > That will most certainly NOT then be convertible by IMD into a Victor > 9000 > > disk! > > That's a good explanation. I was thinking of it as non-standard use > of IMD format; the resulting IMD file would contain the logical > contents of the Victor 9000 disk, but because the IMD format doesn't > (yet) have suitable definitions for Victor 9000 format, the file would > purport to contain IBM-compatible MFM sectors. > > I don't really have any plan for a way to convert these Victor 9000 > pseudo-IMD files back into actual diskettes. I could write an > imdtoflux program as a counterpart to the fluxtoimd program, which > would help with a portion of the problem. > > > However, OTHER software, that understands the file systems could then > > extract files. For example, if it is successful, then it might be > possible > > to take the Victor9000 IMD file produced by fluxtoimd, run it through > IMD to > > write that content onto a disk in a WD/NEC compatible format with > > similarities of parameters other than encoding (eg. Chromemco?), and then > > read files from that disk using XenoCopy or equivalent. > > I'm not sure how flexible XenoCopy is, but Victor 9000 format used > Zoned CAV, so tracks have varying numbers of sectors, from 11 to 19. > The pseudo-IMD file will preserve that organization. If the IMDU > program doesn't get upset by the variable number of sectors per track, > it might be able to extract the sector data into a raw binary > filesystem image. Assuming that MS-DOS on the Victor 9000 uses the > obvious mapping of FAT cluster numbers to track/head/sector, the > resulting raw binary filesystem image might be usable with existing > utilities for FAT filesystems, such as mtools. > > There's always been such a bewildering variety of mappings of CP/M > blocks to track/head/sector that I wouldn't put any money on the same > conversion working for Victor 9000 CP/M-86 disks. > > In both cases (MS-DOS and CP/M-86), if it proves necessary I'll whip > up another simple utility to convert the pseudo-IMD file into a usable > raw binary filesystem image. > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 13 06:42:17 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 12:42:17 +0100 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! In-Reply-To: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> References: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> Message-ID: <3d080362-799b-654a-9bd2-84f9f33012ef@btinternet.com> On 13/10/2016 11:27, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I mean please add 110 Baud Evan! > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 10/13/2016 12:35:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > cctalk at snarc.net writes: > > 300-2400 bps Fido on a Rainbow of course Rod Smallwood - Sysop FidoUK1 1984 -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Oct 13 07:32:36 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 07:32:36 -0500 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Check out this video of a flight simulator running on some PDP-11s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-DpcvY4aBk Those rack mounted zip drives look like the same devices in the "Decpack avionics cabinet" auction. They're calling them "avionics," so I wonder if these are from a flight simulator? On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 > > someone needs to grab those 11/45's! > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Oct 13 09:57:00 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:57:00 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! In-Reply-To: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> References: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> Message-ID: <0628c6b0-78c8-0426-35cc-343555d6b0bb@snarc.net> > I mean please add 110 Baud Evan! I was giving examples, not carved-in-stone specifications. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Oct 13 10:02:54 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:02:54 +0200 Subject: Sage II Message-ID: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> Hi all, finally found myself a SAGE II. (no software) Anybody could help me out with the floppies for it? Was there a kermit version for it? Cheers & thanks From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Oct 13 07:34:55 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 07:34:55 -0500 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I just now realized that these auctions are out of a Delta Airlines facility! Plus they are in MN, so within range of myself. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Check out this video of a flight simulator running on some PDP-11s: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-DpcvY4aBk > > Those rack mounted zip drives look like the same devices in the "Decpack > avionics cabinet" auction. > > They're calling them "avionics," so I wonder if these are from a flight > simulator? > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 >> >> someone needs to grab those 11/45's! >> >> > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 13 07:45:17 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 13:45:17 +0100 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 13/10/16 11:39, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Hi Eric, > > First off, thanks for attempting this. I spent last night trying to > recreate a disk using the CP/M-86 streams I had posted with the Kryoflux > and failed. I'm going to play with it a little until I can get a working > reproduction so I would not rely on those Kryoflux streams just yet. I am > guessing the only way I can reproduce a disk is through the Kryoflux > streams written back to a disk but I can't seem to do that. > > I noticed that Discferret had a wiki page on the Victor 9000 format. It > looks like it handled the format but it looks like it is a dead project and > I'm guessing you can't get Discferret boards anymore. I have about a dozen bare DiscFerret boards in my cupboard if anyone wants one. The board house ran them as hot-air levelled instead of silver-plated, so they need the SMD pads for the RAM and FPGA (and ideally the PIC too) cleaning with desolder wick before having those parts installed. Electrically they're fine. If you'd prefer to run your own boards (maybe you really like the gold on purple that OSH Park do?), I have no problem with someone downloading Eagle, running CAM and uploading the resulting Gerber files to a board house. Student Me would have appreciated it if you'd have kicked him a few quid for doing that, but these days... screw it, go have fun. It's GPLv2 / open hardware. If we ever meet in person, say thank-you. That'll do. :) Heck, go make a box full of DiscFerrets for you and your friends. I'd actually like to see people getting something out of it more than I'd like to see money from it :) There's even an ATE program (FerretTest) which can give you a rough idea where to look for bad solder joints and things. Lots of things to help you DIY boards (though I actually wrote it because I had a run of boards with solder bridges on the RAM and FPGA which were causing read/write issues). As far as "dead project" goes, it's only dead in the sense that I have no inclination to buy parts and assemble boards again. Anyone who's been following DiscFerret for long enough knows the tale. The record's been stuck so long it's worn through, so I won't repeat it :P Regarding the API and microcode, they're not "dead", they're "stable"! I can't think of anything else to add. What more does it need than read and write? Tell me! TL/DR: it was a university final year project that kinda escaped the lab. I'm glad you all still like it and talk about it. I never saw that coming. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 07:56:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 05:56:59 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <58d60cdb-cf89-20a3-ad56-00db9401c4d8@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/16 12:11 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > What are those modern looking peripherals? Looks like storage, it might > be the real find here. > They are Wilson Labs disk emulators. Like I said, someone needs to get these. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Oct 13 09:33:43 2016 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 07:33:43 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions (GP-4, SEL 32) Message-ID: <002c01d2255e$d0c76e10$72564a30$@pacbell.net> This looks like a GP-4, though I am suspicious that parts of it have been modernized. The GP-4 had a drum memory. https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Genal-Precision-Systems-2-door-avionics-cabinets/32464723/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464723 Someone should grab the SEL machines: https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Simulator-avionics-cabinet/32464645/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464645 There are a few 3C cards in the pallets of parts, and a few can be seen in the 7th photo here: https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/2-door-avionics-cabinets/32464736/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464736 Computer Control Company machines (e.g. DDP-124) were widely used in simulators in the mid/late 1960s, when many simulators for aircraft of that vintage were built. The computer itself is nowhere in sight, however. Probably, all that remains are specialized simulator interfaces, with the PC in the last photo doing the computing. :( --Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 10:16:32 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:16:32 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:02 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > finally found myself a SAGE II. > (no software) > > Anybody could help me out with the floppies for it? > > Was there a kermit version for it? > > Cheers & thanks > Did you get this from Ebay? http://www.thebattles.net/sage/ From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Thu Oct 13 10:31:31 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:31:31 -0500 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway Message-ID: It's too bad it's out in Australia, I qualify for the top priority of the list, 'under 21 years of age' Especially this is too bad: "Anything not sold, swapped or given away by early December will likely go to recycling." Joe From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 10:51:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 08:51:02 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot Message-ID: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> the perennial '937' problem just installed 6085 XDE 5.0 from floppies but there is no option in the installer to load and setup to boot settimedove.boot from the copilot volume someone must have figured this out on the other hand, since none of the compilers or actual useful stuff is installed, since you're SUPPOSED to fetch this off the XNS network, maybe not. I should post this on comp.sys.xerox :-) From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 10:55:16 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:55:16 -0400 Subject: Any Kryoflux, Discferret, Catweasel, or other floppy flux images wanted In-Reply-To: References: <429E5003-A208-40FF-9B75-4E6C4AE02049@centurylink.net> <12f7ae61-9340-ebdb-19be-4b343c393c8a@bitsavers.org> <4726f561-759c-c6fa-ad85-9d3a50e36240@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: HI Phil, Sorry, I guess "dead" was a little harsh. Sorry for that. I'm glad to know that it's still alive. I appreciate your reply and I'd love to have a DiscFerret board (actually, if I could request two, that would be great in case I mess one up). I do have a hot air solder station and have done surface mount before so that shouldn't be a problem. I'd be happy to report back as well. I will email you off-list. Santo On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:45 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 13/10/16 11:39, Santo Nucifora wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > > First off, thanks for attempting this. I spent last night trying to > > recreate a disk using the CP/M-86 streams I had posted with the Kryoflux > > and failed. I'm going to play with it a little until I can get a working > > reproduction so I would not rely on those Kryoflux streams just yet. I > am > > guessing the only way I can reproduce a disk is through the Kryoflux > > streams written back to a disk but I can't seem to do that. > > > > I noticed that Discferret had a wiki page on the Victor 9000 format. It > > looks like it handled the format but it looks like it is a dead project > and > > I'm guessing you can't get Discferret boards anymore. > > I have about a dozen bare DiscFerret boards in my cupboard if anyone > wants one. > The board house ran them as hot-air levelled instead of silver-plated, > so they need the SMD pads for the RAM and FPGA (and ideally the PIC too) > cleaning with desolder wick before having those parts installed. > Electrically they're fine. > > If you'd prefer to run your own boards (maybe you really like the gold > on purple that OSH Park do?), I have no problem with someone downloading > Eagle, running CAM and uploading the resulting Gerber files to a board > house. Student Me would have appreciated it if you'd have kicked him a > few quid for doing that, but these days... screw it, go have fun. It's > GPLv2 / open hardware. If we ever meet in person, say thank-you. That'll > do. :) > > Heck, go make a box full of DiscFerrets for you and your friends. I'd > actually like to see people getting something out of it more than I'd > like to see money from it :) > > There's even an ATE program (FerretTest) which can give you a rough idea > where to look for bad solder joints and things. Lots of things to help > you DIY boards (though I actually wrote it because I had a run of boards > with solder bridges on the RAM and FPGA which were causing read/write > issues). > > > As far as "dead project" goes, it's only dead in the sense that I have > no inclination to buy parts and assemble boards again. Anyone who's been > following DiscFerret for long enough knows the tale. The record's been > stuck so long it's worn through, so I won't repeat it :P > > > Regarding the API and microcode, they're not "dead", they're "stable"! I > can't think of anything else to add. What more does it need than read > and write? Tell me! > > > TL/DR: it was a university final year project that kinda escaped the > lab. I'm glad you all still like it and talk about it. I never saw that > coming. > > > Cheers, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Oct 13 10:56:50 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:56:50 +0200 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-13 17:16, william degnan wrote: > Did you get this from Ebay? Nope, just waited few years until it popped up ;-) > http://www.thebattles.net/sage/ Yes, I know that one. I also got some documentation with it, checked already if it is all on the web and it is. Weirdly, some documents have a different first page, but the rest is the same ... From rickb at bensene.com Thu Oct 13 11:01:09 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:01:09 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> > I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. >Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture. Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time) floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching power available The machines were mainly intended for real-time control applications (as used in the flight sim applications in the auction) The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32. More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm Years ago, I had some experience with these machines. They were quite powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and ran. Very robust design. These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 11:14:16 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:14:16 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On 10/13/16 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of > someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. > hope h****t was one of us :-) From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Oct 13 11:23:50 2016 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:23:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/16 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of >> someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. >> > > hope h****t was one of us :-) That's what I said when I quit bidding at $180. I had one of those moments where I went "You know, I'd like to spend more, but I have a building full of computers, I can't really fit any more, and at $200+ it starts getting harder to justify it to the wife." Which is usually a sign it's getting harder to justify to myself and my conscience is telling me it's time to fold. But I sure hope it went to a collector. (It's not often I find computer stuff within 2.5 hours of my home, too.) - JP From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:30:17 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:30:17 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> On 10/13/16 9:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/13/16 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of >> someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. >> > hope h****t was one of us :-) > > > > I ended up with the TI-980. The 11/45's got out of range for me... 9 minutes left on the other Gould 32/77; hope someone here ends up with it... - Josh From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:39:40 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:39:40 -0500 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looks like one person got both the 11/45s for $4500 total. Too much for me, but that didn't seem like a bad deal. Kyle From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Oct 13 12:07:08 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:07:08 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04ba01d22574$3c39ca20$b4ad5e60$@bettercomputing.net> $4500! Is it likely a collector or someone that would be using these things somewhere? I don't know my PDP stuff well.. the 11/45 is from around the early 70s right? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 9:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) Looks like one person got both the 11/45s for $4500 total. Too much for me, but that didn't seem like a bad deal. Kyle From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 13 12:19:45 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 12:19:45 -0500 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <20161013071149.GA31553@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <57FFC231.3060408@pico-systems.com> On 10/13/2016 02:11 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. /P SEL (Systems Engineering Labs) 32 bit minicomputer. I think they were bought out by Gould. Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 13 12:20:09 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:20:09 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <8072d018-a1c6-7475-3a3a-b44c18611e7f@jwsss.com> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> <8072d018-a1c6-7475-3a3a-b44c18611e7f@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8F5BFF7E-6EF4-43E8-84AE-787D6F5DF5AA@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Oct-13, at 12:35 AM, jim stephens wrote: > On 10/12/2016 11:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Any idea what this might be? Looks interesting, but not a lot of information to go by apart from the "Display Systems Incorporated" badges... >> >> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Portable-simulator-display-screens/32464587/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464587 >> >> - Josh > > There is a horribly stylized some set of letters in front of the Display Systems Incorporated. I don't know if I could figure it out even if the photo was close up and focused. I hate designers. Typical crap they pull, make logos with letter you can't figure out if you tried. > > The blurry blob to the left the tie first "D" is some set of letters or a word, can't tell. The blurry blob logo is the letters "dsi" in lowercase, done in a kind of stencil font or font with a widely varying line width. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 12:27:34 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:27:34 +0000 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <04ba01d22574$3c39ca20$b4ad5e60$@bettercomputing.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> , <04ba01d22574$3c39ca20$b4ad5e60$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > I don't know my PDP stuff well.. the 11/45 is from around the early 70s right? 1972 I think. It's a very nice machine, all TTL (over 1000 ICs in CPU, MMU and floating point processor). I suppose the 11/70 is even more fun (with 22 bit addressing, etc) but the 11/45 is one of my all-time favourites. -tony From brain at jbrain.com Thu Oct 13 12:39:42 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 12:39:42 -0500 Subject: Fwd: CBM edge connectors pitch? In-Reply-To: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl> References: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl> Message-ID: <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> I thought the question about the prevalence of .156" connectors in early systems was interesting and I assume someone here has the detail on the rationale. Jim -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 19:31:47 +0200 From: silverdr at wfmh.org.pl Reply-To: cbm-hackers at musoftware.de To: cbm-hackers at musoftware.de Do we know what is the norm used in the CBM edge connectors? Like the IEEE, USER PORT or CASSETTE? I found out mentions that it uses a 0.156" pitch. Where the heck does that come from? Nothing "round" in either metric or imperial.. -- SD! Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 12:48:35 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:48:35 +0000 Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? In-Reply-To: <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> References: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl>, <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > I thought the question about the prevalence of .156" connectors in early > systems was interesting and I assume someone here has the detail on the > rationale. I have wondered if it's an approximation to 0.15625" -- 5/32" pitch. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:00:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:00:58 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:56 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-10-13 17:16, william degnan wrote: > > Did you get this from Ebay? >> > > Nope, just waited few years until it popped up ;-) > > http://www.thebattles.net/sage/ >> > > Yes, I know that one. I also got some documentation with it, > checked already if it is all on the web and it is. > > Weirdly, some documents have a different first page, but the rest is the > same ... > > I may have some software that is missing from that site, if so I will image and upload will let you know bill From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:06:48 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:06:48 -0400 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <04ba01d22574$3c39ca20$b4ad5e60$@bettercomputing.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> <04ba01d22574$3c39ca20$b4ad5e60$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <048101d2257c$917b3930$b471ab90$@gmail.com> But then add the "Internet Fee" and Sales Tax (read the Terms and Conditions) for a ~26% mark-up from the closing price. So ~$5670. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 1:07 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) $4500! Is it likely a collector or someone that would be using these things somewhere? I don't know my PDP stuff well.. the 11/45 is from around the early 70s right? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 9:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) Looks like one person got both the 11/45s for $4500 total. Too much for me, but that didn't seem like a bad deal. Kyle From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 13:27:29 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:27:29 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <8F5BFF7E-6EF4-43E8-84AE-787D6F5DF5AA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <36e94bae-4a72-91ce-82b8-466c6523947e@bitsavers.org> <8e3ac22c-23a8-c862-80f1-d9f6395cf349@gmail.com> <1c4f8bd9-7233-25d6-fc03-d9334aa8c7c3@gmail.com> <8072d018-a1c6-7475-3a3a-b44c18611e7f@jwsss.com> <8F5BFF7E-6EF4-43E8-84AE-787D6F5DF5AA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 10/13/2016 10:20 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Oct-13, at 12:35 AM, jim stephens wrote: >> On 10/12/2016 11:04 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Any idea what this might be? Looks interesting, but not a lot of information to go by apart from the "Display Systems Incorporated" badges... >>> >>> https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Portable-simulator-display-screens/32464587/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464587 >>> >>> - Josh >> There is a horribly stylized some set of letters in front of the Display Systems Incorporated. I don't know if I could figure it out even if the photo was close up and focused. I hate designers. Typical crap they pull, make logos with letter you can't figure out if you tried. >> >> The blurry blob to the left the tie first "D" is some set of letters or a word, can't tell. > > The blurry blob logo is the letters "dsi" in lowercase, done in a kind of stencil font or font with a widely varying line width. > Went for a quarter. I looked at the photography of the interior of several of the 747 simulator heads, and there appear to be some with bare CRTs mounted on edge like the ones on this unit. There are a couple of other "portable screens" as well. I suspect when they were working on the simulations in the machine room they used these as temporary hookups to see what was appearing in the cockpits by hooking them up to the actual machines. Also, I found another complete Evans and Sutherland machine here. Mr H*****t got it as well, rather cheap. I hope as others have said this is not a scrapper, since a large price was paid for the 11/45 that buyer seems to have purchased. The two bay 11/45 went for twice the bid, since it was listed as 2 pcs @ 1500 each == $3000 total. https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Assorted-avionics-cabinets-and-computer-equipment/32464904/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464904 thanks Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 13 14:56:54 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 12:56:54 -0700 Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? In-Reply-To: <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> References: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl> <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <051C4F7B-40F6-429F-95C3-CC86C6A61DEC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Oct-13, at 10:39 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I thought the question about the prevalence of .156" connectors in early systems was interesting and I assume someone here has the detail on the rationale. > > Jim > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 19:31:47 +0200 > From: silverdr at wfmh.org.pl > Reply-To: cbm-hackers at musoftware.de > To: cbm-hackers at musoftware.de > > Do we know what is the norm used in the CBM edge connectors? Like the IEEE, USER PORT or CASSETTE? > > I found out mentions that it uses a 0.156" pitch. Where the heck does that come from? Nothing "round" in either metric or imperial.. > -- > SD! > Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list The 0.156" is presumably the oldest PCB edge connector, I have an example in tube equipment going back to 1959. Very common in all sorts of equipment through the 60s and 70s. As Tony suggests, it matches up with 5/32" spacing, just as 0.125 is 1/8". Where the rounding of the 1/4 thou (0.00025) took place - in the name or the implementation - I'm not sure. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 13 15:35:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) Message-ID: <20161013203510.F10AC18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brad H > the 11/45 is from around the early 70s right? First released in '72, if memory serves. It was in production for a _long_ time, though - no later model really replaced it (if you wanted a mid-sized machine with a lot of crunch), unlike many of the other -11's (e.g. /05, /40, etc). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 13 15:37:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NWA auctions Message-ID: <20161013203751.E9E6118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim Stephens > The two bay 11/45 went for twice the bid, since it was listed as 2 pcs > @ 1500 each Yeah, I couldn't quite work that out - did it mean there were two mostly identical ones, and they only had pictures of one, or did it mean 'two racks'? Noel From steve.maresca at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 15:47:19 2016 From: steve.maresca at gmail.com (Steven Maresca) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:47:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/23 System available for sale in Bedford, NH In-Reply-To: <3260A807-6148-4640-B1CB-C52629A054E7@comcast.net> References: <3260A807-6148-4640-B1CB-C52629A054E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Stephen Pereira wrote: > Hello all, > > I have my PDP-11/23 system for sale in Bedford, NH. > > Please see this message thread at VCFED.ORG for my > description: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54193-FS-Clean- > fully-working-PDP-11-23-system showthread.php?54193-FS-Clean-fully-working-PDP-11-23-system> > > I would greatly prefer local pickup, but if necessary, we can discuss what > shipping to your location might cost, and how much time it might take me to > get the equipment properly packaged for shipment. > > smp > -- > Stephen M. Pereira > Bedford, NH 03110 > KB1SXE > > > Stephen, Many thanks again for offering your 11/23. I wanted to publicly share my appreciation here on the list. It was a pleasure meeting with you and chatting, and I hope that you continue to enjoy your Rainbow, Altair, FPGAs, and other fun acquisitions in the future. Looking forward to a first boot, Steve From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 15:50:20 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 13:50:20 -0700 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013203751.E9E6118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161013203751.E9E6118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2b122f1b-7d27-6ca7-4f12-1e5c53fccde4@gmail.com> On 10/13/16 1:37 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jim Stephens > > > The two bay 11/45 went for twice the bid, since it was listed as 2 pcs > > @ 1500 each > > Yeah, I couldn't quite work that out - did it mean there were two mostly > identical ones, and they only had pictures of one, or did it mean 'two racks'? > > Noel > It means (as far as I can tell) "two items" where the items in this case are the two racks. You're buying the lot, but bidding on the cost of a single item. The TI 980B I got (https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464722) was sold as three items (the rack, the printer on the small rack, and some weird readout on a rolling pedstal). No, it doesn't make an incredible amount of sense for some of this... - Josh From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 13 16:00:03 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:00:03 -0400 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Oct 2016 13:50:20 -0700.) <2b122f1b-7d27-6ca7-4f12-1e5c53fccde4@gmail.com> References: <2b122f1b-7d27-6ca7-4f12-1e5c53fccde4@gmail.com> <20161013203751.E9E6118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161013210003.8F0ECA58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > No, it doesn't make an incredible amount of sense for some of this... Considering how many cabinets full of computer equipment were labelled "avionics rack", it's clear the auctioneers had no clue what most of this stuff was. De From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 17:07:16 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:07:16 -0600 Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? In-Reply-To: <051C4F7B-40F6-429F-95C3-CC86C6A61DEC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl> <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> <051C4F7B-40F6-429F-95C3-CC86C6A61DEC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > As Tony suggests, it matches up with 5/32" spacing, just as 0.125 is 1/8". > Where the rounding of the 1/4 thou (0.00025) took place - in the name or the implementation - I'm not sure. Implementation. Years ago I verified with several vendors that the connectors really were engineered for 0.156" or 3.96mm, not 5/32" or 3.97mm. (I'm not 100% certain that was always true, but it was when I inquired.) It doesn't make much difference in practice. The highest pin-count .156" connector I've ever dealt with was 86 pin (43x2), and the difference in the nominal first-to-last position is only 10.5 mils, which is on the order of the non-cumulative position tolerance. I just happened to look at the drawing for a TE 2-530666-1 connector, and they specified the pitch in one place as 0.156/3.96 (in/mm), and in another place in the same drawing as 0.156/3.175. Oops! From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 17:12:57 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:12:57 -0700 Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? In-Reply-To: References: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl> <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> <051C4F7B-40F6-429F-95C3-CC86C6A61DEC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <05df6681-c6e9-09da-89b2-f132562ff859@jwsss.com> On 10/13/2016 3:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > It doesn't make much difference in practice. The highest pin-count > .156" connector I've ever dealt with was 86 pin (43x2), and the > difference in the nominal first-to-last position is only 10.5 mils, > which is on the order of the non-cumulative position tolerance. If these are the connectors that can have keys inserted between every connector, the small difference would be significant as those would not align between a metric connector and an English (inch) board. The electrical connections would line up w/o any keying as you say. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 17:17:19 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 11:17:19 +1300 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > the perennial '937' problem > > just installed 6085 XDE 5.0 from floppies but there is no option in the > installer to load and setup to boot settimedove.boot from the copilot volume > > someone must have figured this out > > on the other hand, since none of the compilers or actual useful stuff is installed, > since you're SUPPOSED to fetch this off the XNS network, maybe not. > > I should post this on comp.sys.xerox :-) Assuming you've installed this to an emulated disk... if you can chuck the disk image over to me there's a few things I could try... I have a 6085 running VP & Lisp images from Dave's MFM emulator. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 17:38:28 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:38:28 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/13/16 3:17 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Assuming you've installed this to an emulated disk... if you can chuck > the disk image over to me there's a few things I could try... I have a > 6085 running VP & Lisp images from Dave's MFM emulator. > I only have one emulator right now, and I've been busy dumping MFM disks. I did take a snapshot of XDE 5.0 though. I'll put that up on bitsavers/bits/Xerox/6085 Today's project is trying to get Smalltalk installed. Minor detour getting a HxC floppy emulator working correctly. It turns out OSX disk utility doesn't make a FAT32 fs the HxC understands, so I had to use Rufus on WinXP. Also, if anyone needs it, I made a high resolution scan of the Xerox optical mousepad which is up under pdf/xerox/mouse From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 17:40:28 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:40:28 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <36f3ded5-ac78-a3df-20b1-d8425cd3c9cc@bitsavers.org> Oh, and a HUGE thank you to Dave for getting 6085 sector extraction working this past week! On 10/13/16 3:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/13/16 3:17 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> Assuming you've installed this to an emulated disk... if you can chuck >> the disk image over to me there's a few things I could try... I have a >> 6085 running VP & Lisp images from Dave's MFM emulator. >> > > I only have one emulator right now, and I've been busy dumping MFM > disks. > > I did take a snapshot of XDE 5.0 though. I'll put that up on bitsavers/bits/Xerox/6085 > > Today's project is trying to get Smalltalk installed. Minor detour getting a HxC floppy > emulator working correctly. It turns out OSX disk utility doesn't make a FAT32 fs the HxC > understands, so I had to use Rufus on WinXP. > > Also, if anyone needs it, I made a high resolution scan of the Xerox optical mousepad > which is up under pdf/xerox/mouse > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 18:04:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:04:09 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <10b824ff-4787-697a-8572-595e6961699d@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/16 3:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Today's project is trying to get Smalltalk installed. requirements 8k control store, 3.7mb memory and it turns out you can't have anything higher than a rev C IOP board, I assume it doesn't know how to deal with the changes made for the bigger disks From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 18:11:18 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:11:18 -0700 Subject: ADM 3A in Sunnyvale, CA In-Reply-To: <0a646d04-5bce-b76e-d295-1e77f751faf1@bitsavers.org> References: <7adbd2ff-1634-6527-9a72-7ae5d004f608@sbcglobal.net> <0B5B766E-6C91-46D7-8EE3-25117CC9F00B@pski.net> <0a646d04-5bce-b76e-d295-1e77f751faf1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4cf1a805-9603-cadb-362d-a22e0a277755@bitsavers.org> On 10/11/16 10:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Depending on the length of the HV lead, you may need side or > bottom anode button. VT100 is bottom, newer terminals tend to > have it on the side. > Took a look this morning and the anode is on the top, but swapping tubes will be a bit of a hassle because the mounting is pop riveted to a frame in four places. The frame bolts onto the expansion foam top cover of the terminal. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Oct 13 18:14:19 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:14:19 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing Message-ID: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is a clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put it to Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like something's stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. Wondering if there's any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 13 18:21:31 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 00:21:31 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <010e01d225a8$87fb9130$97f2b390$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H > Sent: 14 October 2016 00:14 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: ASR 33 buzzing > > Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. > > > > I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is a clicking in the > power supply area and nothing else. If I put it to Off or Local, there is a loud > buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse on the back left side of the machine > blows. It's like something's stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. > Wondering if there's any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :) Greenkeys is really the place for this, although I am sure there are people here who know too. Give Greenkeys time to respond, I have found people on that list to be extremely helpful. Regards Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 18:28:07 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 19:28:07 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. > > > > I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is a clicking > in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put it to Off or Local, > there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse on the back left side > of the machine blows. It's like something's stuck but the noise is kind of > hard to pin down. Wondering if there's any Model 33 experienced guys out > there. :) > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the motor by hand to confirm. paul From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Thu Oct 13 18:37:04 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 16:37:04 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <057601d225aa$b565c760$20315620$@bettercomputing.net> The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a plastic tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a 'reset'. But yeah.. not today. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. > > > > I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is a > clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put it to > Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse > on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like something's > stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. Wondering if there's > any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :) > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the motor by hand to confirm. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 13 20:11:43 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 20:11:43 -0500 Subject: Gould 32/77 In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <89cd23e4-7844-5f6c-3e6f-48eb69428f33@gmail.com> , <04ba01d22574$3c39ca20$b4ad5e60$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <580030CF.50106@pico-systems.com> On 10/13/2016 12:27 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> I don't know my PDP stuff well.. the 11/45 is from around the early 70s right? > 1972 I think. It's a very nice machine, all TTL (over 1000 ICs in CPU, MMU > and floating point processor). I suppose the 11/70 is even more fun > (with 22 bit addressing, etc) but the 11/45 is one of my all-time favourites. > > -tony > Yup, we got an 11/45 used and ran RSX-11M with about 4 users on it, it worked VERY well, given the limited memory we had on it. But, of course, when we moved up to a VAX, that was even better! Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 13 20:38:51 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 21:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gould 32/77 Message-ID: <20161014013851.0220118C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > we got an 11/45 used and ran RSX-11M with about 4 users on it, it > worked VERY well About when I first got to MIT ('74), they were running the main introductory programming course for CS students (6.031, for those to whom that means something) on an 11/45; it had (IIRC) about 30+ Decwriters hooked up to it. It ran a home-rolled OS called 'Delphi' (written in Macro-11, I suspect); the course covered assembler, Algol (compiled, I think - but it may have been interpreted, I'd have to check) and LISP (interpreted). ISTR that the response time on the machine was usually pretty good. By a very odd chance, some years later I got that very machine in a trade, and it became the main time-sharing machine (running Unix V6) for our group (CSR) at LCS (545 Tech Sq). We beefed it up with an Able ENABLE and I think 1MB of memory, and IIRC the optional Able cache for the ENABLE, and it was _quite_ zippy - I think 'mips' returned about 3.0, about as fast as the DSSR 11/70 on the other side of the 5th floor at TS. Of course, it didn't have the mass storage I/O bandwidth of the /70, but we were very happy with it. > of course, when we moved up to a VAX, that was even better! Heh. Give me an 11/45 with an Able ENABLE any day! :-) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 21:42:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 19:42:30 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/13/16 3:17 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Assuming you've installed this to an emulated disk... if you can chuck > the disk image over to me there's a few things I could try... I have a > 6085 running VP & Lisp images from Dave's MFM emulator. > the way that the script works for viewpoint is it is installed in the Scavenger partition, which doesn't exist in an XDE 5.0 install w/o ViewPoint (see below) from the VP install script: Request 6085 VP Standalone: Common Software Comment Installing Standalone Common Software... Online RD0 Data User Standalone and Remote Data User Terminal Emulation Common Software Erase Scavenger Fetch Scavenger SetTimeDove.boot Set Physical Scavenger Y Set Boot Scavenger . Comment Installation of Standalone Common Software is complete Close -- the XDE install script --XDE5.0InstallationFor80MBDisk.script -- Created by J. Luis Clavijo -- Last edited by J. Luis Clavijo 18-Dec-86 14:40:50 \Partition 80 MB disk into 2 volumes for XDE only Comment Partition 80 MB disk into 2 volumes for XDE only Comment WARNING - PARTITIONING DISK DESTROYS ALL CONTENT Confirm Continue? Pause 4 Comment SECOND CONFIRMATION REQUIRED Confirm Continue? Comment Partitioning.... Takes approximately 5 minutes. Please wait. Physical RD0 Y Online RD0 Create RD0 XDE 2 Tajo 60000 normal CoPilot debugger -- 2 SP between CoPilot & debugger for default size Check RD0 Y Comment Disk partitioned \Partition 80 MB disk into 4 volumes: 2 for XDE and 2 for ViewPoint Comment Partition 80 MB disk into 4 volumes: 2 for XDE and 2 for ViewPoint Comment WARNING - PARTITIONING DISK DESTROYS ALL CONTENT Confirm Continue? Pause 4 Comment SECOND CONFIRMATION REQUIRED Confirm Continue? Comment Partitioning.... Takes approximately 5 minutes. Please wait. Physical RD0 Y Online RD0 Create RD0 XDE 4 User 45000 normal Scavenger 3300 normal Tajo 20000 normal CoPilot debugger -- 2 SP between CoPilot & debugger for default size Check RD0 Y Comment Disk partitioned \Partition 80 MB disk into 4 volumes: 2 for XDE and 2 for Interlisp Comment Partition 80 MB disk into 4 volumes: 2 for XDE and 2 for Interlisp Comment WARNING - PARTITIONING DISK DESTROYS ALL CONTENT Confirm Continue? Pause 4 Comment SECOND CONFIRMATION REQUIRED Confirm Continue? Comment Partitioning.... Takes approximately 5 minutes. Please wait. Physical RD0 Y Online RD0 Create RD0 XDE 4 Lisp 20000 normal LispFiles 20000 normal Tajo 20000 normal CoPilot debugger -- 2 SP between CoPilot & debugger for default size Check RD0 Y Comment Disk partitioned \Partition 80 MB disk into 6 volumes: 2 each for XDE, ViewPoint, and Interlisp Comment Partition 80 MB disk into 6 volumes: 2 each for XDE, ViewPoint, and Interlisp Comment WARNING - PARTITIONING DISK DESTROYS ALL CONTENT Confirm Continue? Pause 4 Comment SECOND CONFIRMATION REQUIRED Confirm Continue? Comment Partitioning.... Takes approximately 5 minutes. Please wait. Physical RD0 Y Online RD0 Create RD0 XDE 6 Lisp 20000 normal LispFiles 20000 normal User 30000 normal Scavenger 2700 normal Tajo 15000 normal CoPilot debugger -- 2 SP between CoPilot & debugger for default size Check RD0 Y Comment Disk partitioned \Install XDE Boot Files only Online RD0 Comment Ready to Install XDE Boot Files Confirm Continue? Request XDEBoot1 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 1)... Fetch CoPilot CoPilotDove.boot Close Request XDEBoot2 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 2)... Fetch CoPilot CoPilotDove.boot Close Request XDEBoot3 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 3)... Fetch CoPilot CoPilotDove.boot Close Request XDEBoot4 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 4)... Fetch CoPilot CoPilotDove.boot Fetch Tajo TajoDove.boot Close Request XDEBoot5 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 5)... Fetch Tajo TajoDove.boot Close Request XDEBoot6 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 6)... Fetch Tajo TajoDove.boot Close Request XDEBoot7 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 7)... Fetch Tajo TajoDove.boot Initial RD0 DiskInitialDove.db Close Request XDEBoot8 Comment Installing Boot Files (part 8)... Pilot CoPilot MesaDove.db Y Germ CoPilot Dove.germ Y Diagnostic CoPilot MoonRise.db Y Comment XDE Boot Files Completed Close --- so you can boot setTime if you partition w XDE and VP partitions From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 13 21:42:15 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 21:42:15 -0500 Subject: Gould 32/77 In-Reply-To: <20161014013851.0220118C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161014013851.0220118C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <58004607.6020102@pico-systems.com> On 10/13/2016 08:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > > of course, when we moved up to a VAX, that was even better! > > Heh. Give me an 11/45 with an Able ENABLE any day! :-) > > Noel > No, the 11/45 was pretty good, but not great for image processing and other programs with a lot of data. Once we got the VAX, I rewrote NASA's Mini-VICAR image processing program and we were able to run the TeX typesetting program, among others. Those were not so practical on the 11, mostly due to the address size. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 22:08:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 20:08:34 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46a98843-0721-16c1-ef7f-27bcdbe4e32d@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/16 7:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > from the VP install script: > > Request 6085 VP Standalone: Common Software > Comment Installing Standalone Common Software... > Online RD0 > Data User Standalone and Remote > Data User Terminal Emulation Common Software > Erase Scavenger > Fetch Scavenger SetTimeDove.boot > Set Physical Scavenger Y > Set Boot Scavenger . > Comment Installation of Standalone Common Software is complete > Close > the other thing if there is a setTime tool is disable the hang at boot by setting the switch \200 \Initialize 6085 PCS with XDE and ViewPoint Confirm Ready to start? Online RD0 Set Physical CoPilot YYYY Set Boot User Odu}\370 Set Boot CoPilot W <-- \200 Boot CoPilot W <-- \200 Close From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 13 22:34:30 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 20:34:30 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> On 10/13/2016 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. >> Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? > > The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on > earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture. > > Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time) > floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the > main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching power available > > The machines were mainly intended for real-time control applications (as > used in the flight sim applications in the auction) > > The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32. > > More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm > > Years ago, I had some experience with these machines. They were quite > powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and ran. > Very robust design. > > These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of > someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. > > -- > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > Well... with a momentary lapse of reason, I bought the Gould / SEL system. It won't go to scrap. No idea how I'm going to get it, and what I'm going to do with it, but after reading about it last night, I thought it might be fun to play with. We'll see... Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 13 22:39:52 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 23:39:52 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Flight Sim. love Mysteries at the Museum but misuse of HP PROP Message-ID: <649597.8a18dd.4531ad88@aol.com> I love this Mysteries at the Museum show but sometimes some of the pros they use are a bit off! FACT checking props on Mysteries at the Museum! Why is link using a 200 A or B HP audio Oscillator! there he is at a work bench with this HP thing and a set of bellows allegedly 1929 era. I laughed my ass off..... Ed# from history... The Origin of the Link Trainer. Today in aviation history, on April 14, 1929, Edwin A. Linkfiled his patent application for his first Link Trainer, and what of HP first product? the 200a and the special one for Disney? 1938 * Work begins * HP invents first product * Oscillators for Walt Disney ====================================================== ok.... there we go! just can't be near 1929.. now I am sure some time Link Had or his people used early HP stuff... but not in the time frame as presented in 29 or neat 29. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 13 23:10:59 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 23:10:59 -0500 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20161014041058.GA32663@lonesome.com> congrats! mcl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 23:34:07 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 04:34:07 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <057601d225aa$b565c760$20315620$@bettercomputing.net> References: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> , <057601d225aa$b565c760$20315620$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a plastic > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. Should the motor be running in the 'Off' positon of the switch, though? If the motor is buzzing and taking a high current (which blows the fuse), what about the motor run capacitor (the one on the mechanism chassis itself, wired to the motor)? Maybe it has failed. -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 23:48:27 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 21:48:27 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <951bf2a1-d726-08ee-b2d5-a789130c771a@gmail.com> On 10/13/16 8:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 10/13/2016 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. >>> Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? >> >> The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on >> earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture. >> >> Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time) >> floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the >> main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching power available >> >> The machines were mainly intended for real-time control applications (as >> used in the flight sim applications in the auction) >> >> The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32. >> >> More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm >> >> Years ago, I had some experience with these machines. They were quite >> powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and ran. >> Very robust design. >> >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of >> someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. >> >> -- >> Rick Bensene >> The Old Calculator Museum >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com >> > > > Well... with a momentary lapse of reason, I bought the Gould / SEL > system. It won't go to scrap. > No idea how I'm going to get it, and what I'm going to do with it, but > after reading about it last night, > I thought it might be fun to play with. We'll see... Very nice! Glad it's not going to scrappers, I was seriously debating bidding on one of the two systems but I just don't have the room. I'd love to see pictures of this thing once you manage to get it back to your place. - Josh > > > Bob > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 00:17:39 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 00:17:39 -0500 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <057101d225a7$87d539f0$977fadd0$@bettercomputing.net> <057601d225aa$b565c760$20315620$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Tony's suggestion is the best at this point - look for issues with the motor start and/or run caps. A shorted (or open..) cap can certainly cause this issue. Shorted and it draws excess current in the cap, open and it may prevent motor starting / running which likewise draws excess (stall) current, but in the motor windings. Also, it shouldn't be too hard to isolate the motor assy. itself from the rest of the circuit - lift the correct lead(s) from the AC power distribution system. It may be much easier if you can deal with the motor / cap assy. as a single entity, rather than within the rest of the complexity. This is just generic advice from a guy who's never fixed a 33. But assuming yours has the standard AC synchronous motor, it should all apply. Motors only draw excess current for a very few reasons - overload / stall, shorted windings, bad start / run caps and possibly associated start / run relays. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:34 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a > plastic > > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by > > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. > > Should the motor be running in the 'Off' positon of the switch, though? > > If the motor is buzzing and taking a high current (which blows the fuse), > what about the motor run capacitor (the one on the mechanism chassis > itself, wired to the motor)? Maybe it has failed. > > -tony > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 14 00:30:30 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 01:30:30 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing Message-ID: <64c8c9.50731724.4531c776@aol.com> did you get the links we sent you over on the greenkeys list for sources on 33 manuals and paperwork we sent you? We did not get an acknowledgment. thanks Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a plastic tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a 'reset'. But yeah.. not today. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. > > > > I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is a > clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put it to > Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse > on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like something's > stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. Wondering if there's > any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :) > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the motor by hand to confirm. paul From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 00:56:33 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 22:56:33 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing Message-ID: I missed those somehow.. thank you. ?Got a lot to learn with this beast! Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com Date: 2016-10-13 10:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing did? you? get the? links? we? sent you? over on the greenkeys? list? for? sources on 33 manuals and paperwork we? sent you?? We did not get an acknowledgment.? thanks? Ed#? www.smecc.org ? In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.? I put a plastic tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a 'reset'.? But yeah.. not today. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > direction.? I tried greenkeys but no response. > > > > I have an ASR 33 I got.? When I plug it in on Line mode there is a > clicking in the power supply area and nothing else.? If I put it to > Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse > on the back left side of the machine blows.? It's like something's > stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down.? Wondering if there's > any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :) > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled and you're getting overcurrent.? Try turning the motor by hand to confirm. ? ? paul From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 01:02:38 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 23:02:38 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing Message-ID: Yeah I'm sure we must have bad cap(s) here. ?I think pretty much everything is original on this thing. ?I've no idea how old it is. I'll have to read through the manuals and figure out where the cap is. ?I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a little black box connected to it. ? I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a telegraph. I was rotating the motor and seeing how things work (hard to believe it doesn't just fly apart given how intricate it is). ?I was able to push keys.. however now I have the top row locked down and the keyboard cover won't fit back on.. heh. ?Hoping I'm not breaking things as I go. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: "drlegendre ." Date: 2016-10-13 10:17 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing Tony's suggestion is the best at this point - look for issues with the motor start and/or run caps. A shorted (or open..) cap can certainly cause this issue. Shorted and it draws excess current in the cap, open and it may prevent motor starting / running which likewise draws excess (stall) current, but in the motor windings. Also, it shouldn't be too hard to isolate the motor assy. itself from the rest of the circuit - lift the correct lead(s) from the AC power distribution system. It may be much easier if you can deal with the motor / cap assy. as a single entity, rather than within the rest of the complexity. This is just generic advice from a guy who's never fixed a 33. But assuming yours has the standard AC synchronous motor, it should all apply. Motors only draw excess current for a very few reasons - overload / stall, shorted windings, bad start / run caps and possibly associated start / run relays. On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:34 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.? I put a > plastic > > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by > > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. > > Should the motor be running in the 'Off' positon of the switch, though? > > If the motor is buzzing and taking a high current (which blows the fuse), > what about the motor run capacitor (the one on the mechanism chassis > itself, wired to the motor)? Maybe it has failed. > > -tony > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 14 01:16:41 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 02:16:41 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing Message-ID: <64e7b7.7b7f352c.4531d249@aol.com> ok ! there are a set on ebay also but not cheap if you can live with the electronic stuff and occasionally print a page you will do fine with the links... I like to have hard copies of manuals here in the museum's library and while I like searching things electronically I really appreciate something that is bound paper to sit and an arm chair and read.... now If I am gonna take the paper to the greasy machine to work, I make a copy of page needed or print from the online one! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/13/2016 10:58:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: I missed those somehow.. thank you. Got a lot to learn with this beast! Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com Date: 2016-10-13 10:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing did you get the links we sent you over on the greenkeys list for sources on 33 manuals and paperwork we sent you? We did not get an acknowledgment. thanks Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a plastic tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working. It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a 'reset'. But yeah.. not today. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H wrote: > > Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. > > > > I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is a > clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put it to > Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse > on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like something's > stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. Wondering if there's > any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :) > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the motor by hand to confirm. paul From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 01:46:31 2016 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:46:31 +1100 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load up the mechanism and stall it. It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement. You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time. The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran ok. If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a bad or missing start cap may be your issue. David Collins HP Computer Museum > On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H wrote: > > > > I missed those somehow.. thank you. Got a lot to learn with this beast! > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Date: 2016-10-13 10:30 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > did you get the links we sent you over > on the greenkeys list for sources on 33 manuals and paperwork > we sent you? We did not get an acknowledgment. thanks > Ed# www.smecc.org > > > In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: > The > buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a > plastic > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn > it by > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms > working. > > It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a > 'reset'. But > yeah.. not today. > > -----Original > Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf > Of Paul Koning > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM > To: General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > >> > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H > > wrote: >> >> Posting > around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right >> > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. >> >> >> > >> I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is > a >> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put > it to >> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A > fuse >> on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like > something's >> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. > Wondering if there's >> any Model 33 experienced guys out there. > :) >> > > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the > motor is stalled > and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the > motor by hand to confirm. > > > paul > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 02:13:08 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 02:13:08 -0500 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: " I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a little black box connected to it. I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a telegraph." The start/run caps can be tubular, rectangular or 'bathtub' shaped. Again, this is just generic advice and I can't say which shape(s) were used by TTY Corp. As for the one clack vs. telegraph-like clacks, that sounds an awful lot like a relay or solenoid that sometimes acts OK, and other times, sits there fluttering as it lacks sufficient current to pull-in or hold the relay armature. Bad filter caps in a DC supply (to the solenoid coil..) is classic for this. Ever seen a one of the cheap, obnoxious 120 AC buzzers they used in old stoves and so on, as a "done" signal? They're just an AC relay designed such that the coil cannot hold the armature between cycles - so it just buzzes like mad to alert you to the status of yr Pizza rolls. =P On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:46 AM, David Collins wrote: > You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the > operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the > keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load > up the mechanism and stall it. > > It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that > will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement. > > You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to > be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time. > > The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start > cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to > need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran > ok. > > If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a > bad or missing start cap may be your issue. > > David Collins > HP Computer Museum > > > On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H > wrote: > > > > > > > > I missed those somehow.. thank you. Got a lot to learn with this beast! > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com > > Date: 2016-10-13 10:30 PM (GMT-08:00) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > > > > did you get the links we sent you over > > on the greenkeys list for sources on 33 manuals and paperwork > > we sent you? We did not get an acknowledgment. thanks > > Ed# www.smecc.org > > > > > > In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > > vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: > > The > > buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a > > plastic > > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn > > it by > > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms > > working. > > > > It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a > > 'reset'. But > > yeah.. not today. > > > > -----Original > > Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf > > Of Paul Koning > > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM > > To: General > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > > > >> > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Posting > > around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right > >> > > direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. > >> > >> > >> > > > >> I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is > > a > >> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put > > it to > >> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A > > fuse > >> on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like > > something's > >> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. > > Wondering if there's > >> any Model 33 experienced guys out there. > > :) > >> > > > > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the > > motor is stalled > > and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the > > motor by hand to confirm. > > > > > > paul > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Oct 14 02:48:11 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 09:48:11 +0200 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-13 20:00, william degnan wrote: > I may have some software that is missing from that site, if so I will image > and upload will let you know Thanks! From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 02:56:45 2016 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 18:56:45 +1100 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> The start cap on mine was meant to be under the metalwork that holds the single fuse at the rear of the printer on the left side (looking from the front of the printer). But don't be surprised if there isn't one. Try the turning by hand first... it's quite possible one of the control bars has popped out into the guts of it and jammed things up. David Collins Client Engagement Manager Dimension Data Tel: +61 3 9626 0593 Mob: +61 424 785 131 e-mail: david.collins at dimensiondata.com (Sent from out of office) > On 14 Oct. 2016, at 6:13 pm, drlegendre . wrote: > > " I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a > little black box connected to it. > I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack > from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a > telegraph." > > The start/run caps can be tubular, rectangular or 'bathtub' shaped. Again, > this is just generic advice and I can't say which shape(s) were used by TTY > Corp. > > As for the one clack vs. telegraph-like clacks, that sounds an awful lot > like a relay or solenoid that sometimes acts OK, and other times, sits > there fluttering as it lacks sufficient current to pull-in or hold the > relay armature. Bad filter caps in a DC supply (to the solenoid coil..) is > classic for this. > > Ever seen a one of the cheap, obnoxious 120 AC buzzers they used in old > stoves and so on, as a "done" signal? They're just an AC relay designed > such that the coil cannot hold the armature between cycles - so it just > buzzes like mad to alert you to the status of yr Pizza rolls. =P > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:46 AM, David Collins > wrote: > >> You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the >> operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the >> keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load >> up the mechanism and stall it. >> >> It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that >> will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement. >> >> You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to >> be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time. >> >> The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start >> cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to >> need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran >> ok. >> >> If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a >> bad or missing start cap may be your issue. >> >> David Collins >> HP Computer Museum >> >>> On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I missed those somehow.. thank you. Got a lot to learn with this beast! >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung device >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com >>> Date: 2016-10-13 10:30 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net >>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing >>> >>> >>> did you get the links we sent you over >>> on the greenkeys list for sources on 33 manuals and paperwork >>> we sent you? We did not get an acknowledgment. thanks >>> Ed# www.smecc.org >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, >>> vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: >>> The >>> buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a >>> plastic >>> tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn >>> it by >>> hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms >>> working. >>> >>> It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a >>> 'reset'. But >>> yeah.. not today. >>> >>> -----Original >>> Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf >>> Of Paul Koning >>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM >>> To: General >>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing >>> >>> >>>> >>> On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Posting >>> around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right >>>> >>> direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is >>> a >>>> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put >>> it to >>>> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A >>> fuse >>>> on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like >>> something's >>>> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. >>> Wondering if there's >>>> any Model 33 experienced guys out there. >>> :) >>>> >>> >>> Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the >>> motor is stalled >>> and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the >>> motor by hand to confirm. >>> >>> >>> paul >>> >> From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 14 05:06:52 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 11:06:52 +0100 Subject: Panelman Update. Message-ID: <5aafff85-c605-7444-daec-9d6dccaaaadc@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Having established a good stock of panels. I now have got a little time to move my PDP-8/i project along a bit. The front I already had . A kind list member let me have a lights board. I built and and tested it It is compatible with the original /i in form, fit and function. This means you could attach wires and paddle (Filip Chip Type ) boards to it and plug it into a real /i and it should run. As I have said before the /i is a wire wrap back plane and loads of flip chip boards. It would not be possible to duplicate it. So modern technology front and center please! The Raspberry Pi is cheap, available and I have one. I also found a 32 port Pi I/O expansion board that you can have up four of on one Pi. SimH runs on a Pi and it does do 8/i emulation. It looks like SimH is written in C. Not a language I have used but I'm sure the hundreds of different versions are all very good ! Hopefully you can declare and call SimH functions under Python. The four 32 port Pi I/O expansion boards I ordered should be here to-day or Monday. They are accessed using the I2C bus from the Raspberry Pi The switch panel is a bit more of a problem. I'm sure copies of the DEC butterfly rocker switch will become available. in the meantime commonly available rocker switches will suffice for development purposes. Although Oscar multiplexed his lamps I may be able to find out how the system signaled it needed to update the lamp display. Rod Panelman Smallwood -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From tacoman656 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 06:30:28 2016 From: tacoman656 at gmail.com (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 07:30:28 -0400 Subject: NWA auctions In-Reply-To: <20161013203751.E9E6118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161013203751.E9E6118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161014113028.GM7362@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Noel Chiappa [161013 16:37]: > > From: Jim Stephens > > > The two bay 11/45 went for twice the bid, since it was listed as 2 pcs > > @ 1500 each > > Yeah, I couldn't quite work that out - did it mean there were two mostly > identical ones, and they only had pictures of one, or did it mean 'two racks'? > > Noel Well, I have to confess that I won both those auctions. I thought originally when I was bidding that it was two identical systems (of two racks each) but now I think it just meant the two racks pictured. So I got half of what I was expecting for my bid. Not to mention I really shouldn't have been bidding at all in the first place. It was just too tempting to pass up. Todd From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 07:43:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:43:35 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> I have been given an lot of SEL software and documentation, along with a simulator Now, I need to get off my butt and put it all on line. Thank you for saving the system, Bob. On 10/13/16 8:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 10/13/2016 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. >>> Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? >> >> The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on >> earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture. >> >> Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time) >> floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the >> main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching power available >> >> The machines were mainly intended for real-time control applications (as >> used in the flight sim applications in the auction) >> >> The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32. >> >> More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm >> >> Years ago, I had some experience with these machines. They were quite >> powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and ran. >> Very robust design. >> >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of >> someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. >> >> -- >> Rick Bensene >> The Old Calculator Museum >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com >> > > > Well... with a momentary lapse of reason, I bought the Gould / SEL system. It won't go to scrap. > No idea how I'm going to get it, and what I'm going to do with it, but after reading about it last night, > I thought it might be fun to play with. We'll see... > > > Bob > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 08:07:07 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 06:07:07 -0700 Subject: booting 6085 XDE 5.0 settime.boot In-Reply-To: <10b824ff-4787-697a-8572-595e6961699d@bitsavers.org> References: <05e8fee7-c7bd-1b09-7efa-a8d7b2f282be@bitsavers.org> <10b824ff-4787-697a-8572-595e6961699d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7e1aff20-7cda-0fae-e3fb-143af763e288@bitsavers.org> what I just posted on comp.sys.xerox I probably should just email Don Woodward or Dave Curbow. ---- On 10/13/16 11:03 AM, Huge wrote: > Has *no-one* implemented an XNS time-server on, say, Linux? > There are Unix implementations of XNS from way back, but as far as I know no one has moved these forward to modern systems. My first message was a bit cryptic, mainly to target folks who would be familiar with the problem to reply. The problem is the designers of the OS wisely knew that running with the clock not set was a bad idea, so unless the software boot switch "\200" is set, the system will hang at MP code 937 waiting for the network time server to reply. There are a couple of ways around the problem. Provide a modern clock service on the net, install a boot program that forces the user to enter the time and date, then jump to the OS boot, or boot without setting the date and either have a program run at startup manually or in the startup script to do it. There isn't a general solution to installing the time setting boot program, since it requires a partition separate from the OS to install the boot file into, and I'm not sure how it knows which partition to reboot into. The only example I've seen of that was reusing the Scavenger partition in ViewPoint when installing a Standalone system. I'm not sure yet how Interlisp-D sets the time (have to pull my installation disks out of storage). So what I was looking for was if this was solved back in the day in a general fashion From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 08:49:55 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 08:49:55 -0500 Subject: AWA - Raised Floor Message-ID: Someone asked yesterday if the raised floor was being sold. Looks like bidding ends this morning. https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Quantity-static-flooring-throughout-building/32465315/LotDetail.asp?lid=32465315 -Cory From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 14 10:16:46 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:16:46 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> References: , <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Check that all the clutches lock up. You can do this by hand. If they drag it can stall the motor. Rotate and push on the tab on each. You have to hold the one from the input coil as the last one. The tension from rotating should hold them all. Always start it in local to reduce the load. If there is a problem with one of the clutches, you'll need to rebuild that one. Tinker Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of David Collins Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:56:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing The start cap on mine was meant to be under the metalwork that holds the single fuse at the rear of the printer on the left side (looking from the front of the printer). But don't be surprised if there isn't one. Try the turning by hand first... it's quite possible one of the control bars has popped out into the guts of it and jammed things up. David Collins Client Engagement Manager Dimension Data Tel: +61 3 9626 0593 Mob: +61 424 785 131 e-mail: david.collins at dimensiondata.com (Sent from out of office) > On 14 Oct. 2016, at 6:13 pm, drlegendre . wrote: > > " I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a > little black box connected to it. > I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack > from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a > telegraph." > > The start/run caps can be tubular, rectangular or 'bathtub' shaped. Again, > this is just generic advice and I can't say which shape(s) were used by TTY > Corp. > > As for the one clack vs. telegraph-like clacks, that sounds an awful lot > like a relay or solenoid that sometimes acts OK, and other times, sits > there fluttering as it lacks sufficient current to pull-in or hold the > relay armature. Bad filter caps in a DC supply (to the solenoid coil..) is > classic for this. > > Ever seen a one of the cheap, obnoxious 120 AC buzzers they used in old > stoves and so on, as a "done" signal? They're just an AC relay designed > such that the coil cannot hold the armature between cycles - so it just > buzzes like mad to alert you to the status of yr Pizza rolls. =P > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:46 AM, David Collins > wrote: > >> You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the >> operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the >> keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load >> up the mechanism and stall it. >> >> It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that >> will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement. >> >> You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to >> be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time. >> >> The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start >> cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to >> need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran >> ok. >> >> If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a >> bad or missing start cap may be your issue. >> >> David Collins >> HP Computer Museum >> >>> On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I missed those somehow.. thank you. Got a lot to learn with this beast! >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung device >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com >>> Date: 2016-10-13 10:30 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net >>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing >>> >>> >>> did you get the links we sent you over >>> on the greenkeys list for sources on 33 manuals and paperwork >>> we sent you? We did not get an acknowledgment. thanks >>> Ed# www.smecc.org >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, >>> vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net writes: >>> The >>> buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor. I put a >>> plastic >>> tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn >>> it by >>> hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms >>> working. >>> >>> It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a >>> 'reset'. But >>> yeah.. not today. >>> >>> -----Original >>> Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf >>> Of Paul Koning >>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM >>> To: General >>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing >>> >>> >>>> >>> On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Posting >>> around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right >>>> >>> direction. I tried greenkeys but no response. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> I have an ASR 33 I got. When I plug it in on Line mode there is >>> a >>>> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else. If I put >>> it to >>>> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A >>> fuse >>>> on the back left side of the machine blows. It's like >>> something's >>>> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down. >>> Wondering if there's >>>> any Model 33 experienced guys out there. >>> :) >>>> >>> >>> Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the >>> motor is stalled >>> and you're getting overcurrent. Try turning the >>> motor by hand to confirm. >>> >>> >>> paul >>> >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 12:38:04 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:38:04 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: , <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > Check that all the clutches lock up. You can do this by hand. If > > they drag it can stall the motor. It may be worth removing the belt from the motor : If an air deflector is fitted over the fan remove it by loosening thw 2 screws between the fan and the motor and removing the screw on top. Then unhook it from under the 2 screws and take it out. Undo the 2 screws on the clamps at each end of the motor (2 are the 2 screws refered to above) and lift off the clamps. Lift out the motor and free the belt from the sprocket. Hold the belt out of the way (with a bit of wire or something), put the motor back in place and fit the clamps to hold it. You can now get the motor running with no load, if there is a problem in the rest of the mechanism it can't stall the motor. The motor is fed via 2 pins of plug 4 at the back of the control unit. You can try disconnecting this to see if the control unit behaves. According to the diagrams I have, the motor is not powered with the switch in the 'Off' position. So you may have a problem with the switch or a shorted snubber network in parallel with it. There were various motors fitted to the Model 33 over the years. Some had a current-operated relay to disconnect the starter winding when the motor was up to speed (and drawing less current), If this is not closing at switch-on, the starter winding will not be powered, the motor can't run. The relay is a black plastic box on the mechanism chassis (IIRC to the left of the motor) with 3 wires going to it. -tony From bill.phillips at christovalisd.org Fri Oct 14 14:38:34 2016 From: bill.phillips at christovalisd.org (Bill Phillips) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 14:38:34 -0500 Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed Message-ID: I have a Comdyna GP-6 analog computer that I need repaired ASAP. Anyone available to help me out? Bill Phillips wcphillips at verizon.net From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 14:53:53 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 12:53:53 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: , <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> Okay here's an interesting one. With the 2A fuse near the motor currently blown, I tried plugging in with the switch in the Off position, just trying to see what's going on with the PSU. To my surprise, the motor started buzzing as though there were a fuse in. But there's nothing?! Something's messed up here. I might just swallow hard and buy the darned books. I hate trying to read on my ipad or computer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 10:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing > Check that all the clutches lock up. You can do this by hand. If > > they drag it can stall the motor. It may be worth removing the belt from the motor : If an air deflector is fitted over the fan remove it by loosening thw 2 screws between the fan and the motor and removing the screw on top. Then unhook it from under the 2 screws and take it out. Undo the 2 screws on the clamps at each end of the motor (2 are the 2 screws refered to above) and lift off the clamps. Lift out the motor and free the belt from the sprocket. Hold the belt out of the way (with a bit of wire or something), put the motor back in place and fit the clamps to hold it. You can now get the motor running with no load, if there is a problem in the rest of the mechanism it can't stall the motor. The motor is fed via 2 pins of plug 4 at the back of the control unit. You can try disconnecting this to see if the control unit behaves. According to the diagrams I have, the motor is not powered with the switch in the 'Off' position. So you may have a problem with the switch or a shorted snubber network in parallel with it. There were various motors fitted to the Model 33 over the years. Some had a current-operated relay to disconnect the starter winding when the motor was up to speed (and drawing less current), If this is not closing at switch-on, the starter winding will not be powered, the motor can't run. The relay is a black plastic box on the mechanism chassis (IIRC to the left of the motor) with 3 wires going to it. -tony = From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 14:53:22 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 19:53:22 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> References: , <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com>, , <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > With the 2A fuse near the motor currently blown, I tried plugging in with Well, that fuse must have been carrying current in order to blow. And yet something happens without it in place? I think you need to check the wiring very carefully. And check for shorts or leakage to ground. > the switch in the Off position, just trying to see what's going on with the > PSU. To my surprise, the motor started buzzing as though there were a fuse > in. But there's nothing?! Something's messed up here. Are you sure it's the motor that's buzzing? Pull out plug 4 from the back of the control unit (this is one of the 15 pin molex plugs, I think it is in the top row at the end nearest the mechanism) Does the motor still buzz? > I might just swallow hard and buy the darned books. I hate trying to read > on my ipad or computer. Can't you print out the sections you need? -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:04:48 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:04:48 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? Bill From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 15:12:20 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 13:12:20 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise was from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against the outer casing, I could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering about that paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it did kinda sound like it might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 15:13:12 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:13:12 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> , <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise was > from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against the outer casing, I > could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering about that paper tape reader.. > when I listened to the noise again it did kinda sound like it might be coming > from over there. It's kind of diffuse. I would start disconnecting plugs in an attempt to silence the noise (and thus determine the faulty section). Pull out plug 4, which will isolate the motor and receiving magnet coil There should be a PSU for the reader in the stand. Unplug the cable from it. Unplug the cable from the control unit that handles reader control. I think that's plug 3. It's certainly not 6, 7, 8 and I think that only leaves one in a normal machine. If it still buzzes it pretty much has to be something in the call control unit chassis. Maybe the transformer for the magnet driver power (shorted rectifier or something?) Or the line relay (but that should not be powered in 'off' or 'local' -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:18:28 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:18:28 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader. The motor for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply). You have to follow the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis. B On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H wrote: > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise was > from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against the outer casing, I > could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering about that paper tape > reader.. when I listened to the noise again it did kinda sound like it > might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not the > reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? > Bill > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 15:25:47 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 13:25:47 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> I found it. It`s this thing: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in. That is *definitely* where the noise is from. If I rotate the motor with it on, the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader. The motor for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply). You have to follow the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis. B On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H wrote: > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise > was from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against the outer > casing, I could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering about that > paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it did kinda > sound like it might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > william degnan > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not > the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? > Bill > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 15:30:26 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:30:26 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> , <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > I found it. It`s this thing: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE That is the receive magnet. An electromagnet coil that is supposed to be turned on an off by the incoming serial bits The complex camshaft arrangement samples the state of that in the middle of every bit-time and effectively does the serial to parallel conversion. OK, it should be being fed by a DC current. There is a subchassis on the call control unit wiht a 9 pin (I think) molex plug on the side. It contains a plug-in PCB, a transformer and a capacitor. That's where you should be looking. Perhaps the capacitor has dried up so there is excessive ripple on the supply lines. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:45:08 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:45:08 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: If you put a clothes pin as this photo shows, does the buzzing go away? http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype/teletype_ASR33_clothespin-test.jpg If so, then you may need to adjust a screw somewhere. You may have an "incomplete" ready mode (just a little chattering when current loop is closed). Bill On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Brad H wrote: > I found it. It`s this thing: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE > > I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in. That is > *definitely* where the noise is from. If I rotate the motor with it on, > the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader. The motor for > the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on one) or > somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply). You have to follow the cable > that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis. > B > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H bettercomputing.net > > wrote: > > > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise > > was from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against the outer > > casing, I could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering about that > > paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it did kinda > > sound like it might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > william degnan > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not > > the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? > > Bill > > > > > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 15:57:59 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 13:57:59 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> My eyes must be going.. I can't see any clothespin in that photo. I see an arrow and a dark space between that cylinder and the back of the magnet.. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing If you put a clothes pin as this photo shows, does the buzzing go away? http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype/teletype_ASR33_clothespin-test.jpg If so, then you may need to adjust a screw somewhere. You may have an "incomplete" ready mode (just a little chattering when current loop is closed). Bill On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Brad H wrote: > I found it. It`s this thing: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE > > I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in. That is > *definitely* where the noise is from. If I rotate the motor with it on, > the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > william degnan > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader. The motor > for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on > one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply). You have to follow > the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis. > B > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H bettercomputing.net > > wrote: > > > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the > > noise was from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against > > the outer casing, I could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering > > about that paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it > > did kinda sound like it might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > william degnan > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and > > not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? > > Bill > > > > > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 16:06:27 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 14:06:27 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> Think I understand.. I didn't have a clothespeg.. I took some heavy cardboard paper and folded it and then stuffed into the space between the cylinder and the back of the magnet. Still buzzes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:58 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing My eyes must be going.. I can't see any clothespin in that photo. I see an arrow and a dark space between that cylinder and the back of the magnet.. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing If you put a clothes pin as this photo shows, does the buzzing go away? http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype/teletype_ASR33_clothespin-test.jpg If so, then you may need to adjust a screw somewhere. You may have an "incomplete" ready mode (just a little chattering when current loop is closed). Bill On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Brad H wrote: > I found it. It`s this thing: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE > > I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in. That is > *definitely* where the noise is from. If I rotate the motor with it on, > the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > william degnan > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader. The motor > for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on > one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply). You have to follow > the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis. > B > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H bettercomputing.net > > wrote: > > > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the > > noise was from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against > > the outer casing, I could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering > > about that paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it > > did kinda sound like it might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > william degnan > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and > > not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? > > Bill > > > > > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 16:10:29 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 14:10:29 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net> Okay so, a bit more playing around. The buzzing stops if I rotate the motor. And then after rotating the motor if I power on and off, it just makes a single click. Every so many turns though it starts buzzing again. So maybe we need to get back to the motor and why it's not doing anything? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 2:06 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing Think I understand.. I didn't have a clothespeg.. I took some heavy cardboard paper and folded it and then stuffed into the space between the cylinder and the back of the magnet. Still buzzes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:58 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing My eyes must be going.. I can't see any clothespin in that photo. I see an arrow and a dark space between that cylinder and the back of the magnet.. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing If you put a clothes pin as this photo shows, does the buzzing go away? http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype/teletype_ASR33_clothespin-test.jpg If so, then you may need to adjust a screw somewhere. You may have an "incomplete" ready mode (just a little chattering when current loop is closed). Bill On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Brad H wrote: > I found it. It`s this thing: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE > > I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in. That is > *definitely* where the noise is from. If I rotate the motor with it on, > the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > william degnan > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader. The motor > for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on > one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply). You have to follow > the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis. > B > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H bettercomputing.net > > wrote: > > > Good question. I only thought motor because it seemed like the > > noise was from back there. And when I put a plastic tool against > > the outer casing, I could feel a vibration. But now I'm wondering > > about that paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it > > did kinda sound like it might be coming from over there. It's kind of diffuse. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > william degnan > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > > > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and > > not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6? > > Bill > > > > > > From jason at smbfc.net Fri Oct 14 17:42:46 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 15:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 370 Hard Drive Message-ID: Came across this in the local craigslist today: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sop/5820161303.html I don't know if this is of interest to the Big Iron IBM guys, but if there's any interest from folks not in the Seattle Area, I'm happy to help faciliate. --Jason From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 17:48:48 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 19:48:48 -0300 Subject: IBM 370 Hard Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580160D0.6090707@gmail.com> On 2016-10-14 7:42 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > Came across this in the local craigslist today: > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sop/5820161303.html > > I don't know if this is of interest to the Big Iron IBM guys, but if > there's any interest from folks not in the Seattle Area, I'm happy to > help faciliate. > > --Jason That is a 62PC I don't know of any 370 systems that used them, I think the closed they came to a mainframe was they where used in the 8130 and 8140 systems. There was also at least one in every S/38, in the later days of S/38 it was usually only one with the system microcode on it and it was run isolated from the rest of the disk storage because of their tendency to die suddenly. I believe that 62PCs where also used in S/34 and Series/1. Paul. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 18:03:00 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 00:03:00 +0100 Subject: IBM 370 Hard Drive In-Reply-To: <580160D0.6090707@gmail.com> References: <580160D0.6090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005901d2266f$1cf6d710$56e48530$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Berger > Sent: 14 October 2016 23:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 370 Hard Drive > > On 2016-10-14 7:42 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > Came across this in the local craigslist today: > > > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sop/5820161303.html > > > > I don't know if this is of interest to the Big Iron IBM guys, but if > > there's any interest from folks not in the Seattle Area, I'm happy to > > help faciliate. > > > > --Jason > That is a 62PC I don't know of any 370 systems that used them, I think the > closed they came to a mainframe was they where used in the 8130 and > 8140 systems. There was also at least one in every S/38, in the later days of > S/38 it was usually only one with the system microcode on it and it was run > isolated from the rest of the disk storage because of their tendency to die > suddenly. I believe that 62PCs where also used in S/34 and Series/1. > > Paul. I was going to say it didn't look like any S/370 drive I had seen. Its also only the Head and Disk assembly (HAD) and if the spindle has been turned and who wouldn't turn the spindle, its probably toast. It would make a nice museum exhibit, provided it was donated, but I think $185 is optimistic...] Dave G4UGM From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 18:32:25 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 16:32:25 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <063101d22673$392905d0$ab7b1170$@bettercomputing.net> So I've got the machine being quiet now (no buzz). And I've confirmed the unit does not try to engage the motor unless switched to Line or Local mode. The second you turn the switch, the motor does about a 1/4 turn and then there's a visible spark from the bottom of the fuse holder. So I'm guessing this must be caps or something drawing too much power somewhere. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 14 20:00:03 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 18:00:03 -0700 Subject: 1966-68 Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516 Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/14/2016 4:14 PM, william degnan wrote: > I recently came upon the console for a Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516, which is > the older brother of the Honeywell Kitchen computer (DDP-316). Took a lot > of photos: > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655 > > Bill Very nice photos. Reminds me of Sherman's 440 console a lot The two empty slots may be for connector cards for the cabling from the panel into the system? thanks Jim From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 20:30:57 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 18:30:57 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <063101d22673$392905d0$ab7b1170$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net> <063101d22673$392905d0$ab7 b1170$@betterc omputing.net> Message-ID: <065701d22683$c82adff0$58809fd0$@bettercomputing.net> Got a little further. The keyboard was definitely jammed. I pulled the carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering something. Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck. At any rate, I put the metal piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action). I then wound the motor some more and got a bell sound. After that, the keys started to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing as each key is pressed. Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but still blows out fuses. AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of. The seller mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before shipping. I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 21:05:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:05:49 -0600 Subject: CBM edge connectors pitch? In-Reply-To: <05df6681-c6e9-09da-89b2-f132562ff859@jwsss.com> References: <435C1F3B-A3D9-4785-8901-D3DAC6F328DF@wfmh.org.pl> <24436847-5f73-831a-5c22-29158a581d55@jbrain.com> <051C4F7B-40F6-429F-95C3-CC86C6A61DEC@cs.ubc.ca> <05df6681-c6e9-09da-89b2-f132562ff859@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 4:12 PM, jim stephens wrote: > If these are the connectors that can have keys inserted between every > connector, the small difference would be significant as those would not > align between a metric connector and an English (inch) board. The > electrical connections would line up w/o any keying as you say. Assuming you use the center as your reference point, on the maximum width (86-pin) connector, nothing is going to be off by more than 5.25 mils. That's not enough to cause a problem with keying. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 21:11:29 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 22:11:29 -0400 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Joseph Zatarski wrote: > It's too bad it's out in Australia, I qualify for the top priority of the > list, 'under 21 years of age' > > Especially this is too bad: "Anything not sold, swapped or given away by > early December will likely go to recycling." > > > Joe > Malcolm - The power supplies for things like the MicroVAX...these are not compatible with US units, correct? From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 21:29:23 2016 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 22:29:23 -0400 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I used most of the SEL/Gould/Encore machines. The 32/77 was an original SEL design, from before Gould bought them. It ran MPX-32, their real-time OS. TTL based. The 32/87 was ECL, in a much bigger cabinet. They made slight hardware changes to the 32/77 and 32/75 and released them as the PowerNode PN7000 and PN5000, which ran UTX-32, their Unix port. IIRC, we took a few 77's and changed one board in the chassis to turn them into PowerNodes. The instruction set was more RISC-y than CISC-y. The floating point was base 16 exponent rather than base 2. Because of the way they did normalization, there were a lot of bit patterns which were impossible results. I made a lot of use of those to represent special values. I'm glad it was saved. Bob: I may have a lot of software for it, if I can find the tapes and they are still readable. I even got hold of their secret C compiler port. On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have been given an lot of SEL software and documentation, along with a > simulator > Now, I need to get off my butt and put it all on line. > > Thank you for saving the system, Bob. > > On 10/13/16 8:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > On 10/13/2016 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > >>> I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. > >>> Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? > >> > >> The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on > >> earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture. > >> > >> Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time) > >> floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the > >> main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching power available > >> > >> The machines were mainly intended for real-time control applications (as > >> used in the flight sim applications in the auction) > >> > >> The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32. > >> > >> More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm > >> > >> Years ago, I had some experience with these machines. They were quite > >> powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and ran. > >> Very robust design. > >> > >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands of > >> someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. > >> > >> -- > >> Rick Bensene > >> The Old Calculator Museum > >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > >> > > > > > > Well... with a momentary lapse of reason, I bought the Gould / SEL > system. It won't go to scrap. > > No idea how I'm going to get it, and what I'm going to do with it, but > after reading about it last night, > > I thought it might be fun to play with. We'll see... > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > From jason at smbfc.net Fri Oct 14 21:32:04 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 19:32:04 -0700 Subject: IBM 370 Hard Drive In-Reply-To: <005901d2266f$1cf6d710$56e48530$@gmail.com> References: <580160D0.6090707@gmail.com> <005901d2266f$1cf6d710$56e48530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ecc8a99-be8e-4343-9678-1231fd432043@smbfc.net> On 10/14/2016 04:03 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >> Berger >> Sent: 14 October 2016 23:49 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: IBM 370 Hard Drive >> >> On 2016-10-14 7:42 PM, Jason Howe wrote: >>> Came across this in the local craigslist today: >>> >>> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sop/5820161303.html >>> >>> I don't know if this is of interest to the Big Iron IBM guys, but if >>> there's any interest from folks not in the Seattle Area, I'm happy to >>> help faciliate. >>> >>> --Jason >> That is a 62PC I don't know of any 370 systems that used them, I think the >> closed they came to a mainframe was they where used in the 8130 and >> 8140 systems. There was also at least one in every S/38, in the later > days of >> S/38 it was usually only one with the system microcode on it and it was > run >> isolated from the rest of the disk storage because of their tendency to > die >> suddenly. I believe that 62PCs where also used in S/34 and Series/1. >> >> Paul. > I was going to say it didn't look like any S/370 drive I had seen. Its also > only the Head and Disk assembly (HAD) and if the spindle has been turned and > who wouldn't turn the spindle, its probably toast. It would make a nice > museum exhibit, provided it was donated, but I think $185 is optimistic...] > > Dave > G4UGM > Interesting. I know nothing about older IBM stuff other than people say that it's a little hard to come by, hence why I relayed the find to the list -- just in case it was worth it. --Jason From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 14 21:36:14 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 02:36:14 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <065701d22683$c82adff0$58809fd0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net> <063101d22673$392905d0$ab7 b1170$@betterc omputing.net>,<065701d22683$c82adff0$58809fd0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: I see you didn't bother to check the clutches. You'd have found that the clutch that reset the keyboard could be released. The buzzing may also be related to your fuse blowing the supply that feeds the receiving coil may have a shorted diode or capacitor. That would both explain the fuse and the buzz. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 6:30:57 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing Got a little further. The keyboard was definitely jammed. I pulled the carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering something. Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck. At any rate, I put the metal piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action). I then wound the motor some more and got a bell sound. After that, the keys started to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing as each key is pressed. Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but still blows out fuses. AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of. The seller mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before shipping. I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 21:43:36 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 15:43:36 +1300 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway In-Reply-To: <007901d22522$fbe74840$f3b5d8c0$@avitech.com.au> References: <007901d22522$fbe74840$f3b5d8c0$@avitech.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:25 PM, wrote: > I have a collection of DEC items available for sale, swap or giveaway. > > They are mostly VAX or MicroVAX items, as well as a few PDP-11 items. > > These are in Melbourne, Australia. I appreciate this may not be of much > interest to the rest of the world. > > If interested, please take a look here -> http://avitech.com.au/?p=1285 I'm in NZ. I'd certainly be interested in the VAX 750 & 730s I'd certainly consider an -8 swap - most likely an 8/e and maybe some peripherals - teletype? Cheers Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 14 21:51:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 21:51:59 -0500 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580199CF.3030603@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2016 09:11 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Joseph Zatarski > wrote: > >> It's too bad it's out in Australia, I qualify for the top priority of the >> list, 'under 21 years of age' >> >> Especially this is too bad: "Anything not sold, swapped or given away by >> early December will likely go to recycling." >> >> >> Joe >> > Malcolm - The power supplies for things like the MicroVAX...these are not > compatible with US units, correct? > I think anything of MicroVAX vintage should have power supplies that can run off 120 or 240. They MIGHT need a voltage range switch to be flipped. Jon From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 14 22:15:26 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:15:26 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6fe345db-4bcf-c91a-dff2-35efec690406@sbcglobal.net> On 10/14/2016 7:29 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > I used most of the SEL/Gould/Encore machines. The 32/77 was an original > SEL design, from before Gould bought them. It ran MPX-32, their real-time > OS. TTL based. The 32/87 was ECL, in a much bigger cabinet. They made > slight hardware changes to the 32/77 and 32/75 and released them as the > PowerNode PN7000 and PN5000, which ran UTX-32, their Unix port. IIRC, we > took a few 77's and changed one board in the chassis to turn them into > PowerNodes. > > The instruction set was more RISC-y than CISC-y. The floating point was > base 16 exponent rather than base 2. Because of the way they did > normalization, there were a lot of bit patterns which were impossible > results. I made a lot of use of those to represent special values. > > I'm glad it was saved. > > Bob: I may have a lot of software for it, if I can find the tapes and they > are still readable. I even got hold of their secret C compiler port. That's great! Might actually end up being a useful system. It will be interesting to see if any peripherals are in the cabinets. Are they multiprocessor capable? The photos had two control panels on one of the cabinets implying two systems, or two CPU's in the cabinet. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From chd at chdickman.com Fri Oct 14 22:25:23 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 23:25:23 -0400 Subject: Unibus controller for MFM disks Message-ID: I don't know that Digital ever had a Unibus disk controller for ST412 interface disks, but were there any third party controllers? I'm in need of disk controllers for PDP-11/40 and think that might be an option given the availability of reliable MFM disk emulators. -chuck From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Oct 14 22:25:00 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:25:00 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing Message-ID: It's not a matter of bothering.. it's a matter of not knowing what I'm looking at yet. ?I was checking what I thought were all the clutches in the back.. they all seemed good. I guess changing caps would be a smart idea right off given they look original. ?I'll check the diodes too. ?I am just nosing around.. given it wasnt shorting out when it left.. I'm concerned something might have shifted in transit. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: dwight Date: 2016-10-14 7:36 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing I see you didn't bother to check the clutches. You'd have found that the clutch that reset the keyboard could be released. The buzzing may also be related to your fuse blowing the supply that feeds the receiving coil may have a shorted diode or capacitor. That would both explain the fuse and the buzz. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 6:30:57 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing Got a little further.? The keyboard was definitely jammed.? I pulled the carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering something.? Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck.? At any rate, I put the metal piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action).? I then wound the motor some more and got a bell sound.? After that, the keys started to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing as each key is pressed. Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but still blows out fuses. AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of.? The seller mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before shipping.? I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 14 22:48:09 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:48:09 -0700 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway In-Reply-To: <580199CF.3030603@pico-systems.com> References: <580199CF.3030603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/2016 7:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/14/2016 09:11 PM, william degnan wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Joseph Zatarski >> wrote: >> >>> It's too bad it's out in Australia, I qualify for the top priority >>> of the >>> list, 'under 21 years of age' >>> >>> Especially this is too bad: "Anything not sold, swapped or given >>> away by >>> early December will likely go to recycling." >>> >>> >>> Joe >>> >> Malcolm - The power supplies for things like the MicroVAX...these are >> not >> compatible with US units, correct? >> > I think anything of MicroVAX vintage should have power supplies that > can run off 120 or 240. They MIGHT need a voltage range switch to be > flipped. > > Jon This is an 11/23 chassis, certainly is. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/search/label/pdp11%2F23 The BA23 is as well. I did see some systems such as the 11/84 that I have that list a wired 115 voltage, and no obvious way to rewire or strap it though, so some may not be. thanks Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 22:57:28 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 20:57:28 -0700 Subject: DEC items for sale, swap or giveaway In-Reply-To: References: <580199CF.3030603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 8:48 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > The BA23 is as well. I did see some systems such as the 11/84 that I have > that list a wired 115 voltage, and no obvious way to rewire or strap it > though, so some may not be. > The H7204 in the 11/84-E has a plug that is removed and rotated 180-degrees to change between 120V and 240V. The selected voltage is printed on either side of the plug and visible though a small window on the back of the supply. The 11/84-E that I recently acquired came configured for 240V and I rotated the plug to 120V. That's all I had to do in addition to replacing the hardwired AC cord with one with a plug for a 120V receptacle. Don't know about the supplies on the earlier versions of the 11/84. From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 23:21:06 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 23:21:06 -0500 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brad, Sounds like you're on the path to ultimate success - keep at it, and you'll get to the heart of it. There's no better guarantee for success than simply refusing (aka failing) to give up at any time. Take needed breaks, review docs, listen to suggestions - but never, ever quit until it's licked. It's only then that you lose, and that's what separates the accomplished from the pikers! =) On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > > > It's not a matter of bothering.. it's a matter of not knowing what I'm > looking at yet. I was checking what I thought were all the clutches in the > back.. they all seemed good. > I guess changing caps would be a smart idea right off given they look > original. I'll check the diodes too. I am just nosing around.. given it > wasnt shorting out when it left.. I'm concerned something might have > shifted in transit. > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: dwight > Date: 2016-10-14 7:36 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing > > I see you didn't bother to check the clutches. You'd have found that the > > clutch that reset the keyboard could be released. > > The buzzing may also be related to your fuse blowing the supply > > that feeds the receiving coil may have a shorted diode or capacitor. > > That would both explain the fuse and the buzz. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Brad H < > vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 6:30:57 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing > > Got a little further. The keyboard was definitely jammed. I pulled the > carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a > piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering > something. Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck. At any rate, I put the metal > piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action). I then > wound the motor some more and got a bell sound. After that, the keys > started to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing > as each key is pressed. > > Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but > still blows out fuses. > > AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of. The seller > mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before > shipping. I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 23:46:33 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 04:46:33 +0000 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: <063101d22673$392905d0$ab7b1170$@bettercomputing.net> References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net>, <063101d22673$392905d0$ab7b1170$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: > So I've got the machine being quiet now (no buzz). And I've confirmed the unit does > not try to engage the motor unless switched to Line or Local mode. The second you > turn the switch, the motor does about a 1/4 turn and then there's a visible spark from > the bottom of the fuse holder. So I'm guessing this must be caps or something > drawing too much power somewhere. I assume this is with a good fuse in the holder. Without it, the motor should not be powered at all. I would try removing the belt so as to remove the load from the motor. And then check the motor capacitor and starter relay (if there is one). -tony From rlloken at telus.net Sat Oct 15 00:05:51 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 23:05:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: uY1RbQEB8mDGquY1Sb4q6W References: <57FF11E5.4010801@oryx.us> uY1RbQEB8mDGquY1Sb4q6W Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2016, jim stephens wrote: > On 10/12/2016 9:47 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: >> any chance that it could be scanned, then shared that way? I think this manual should be scanned for posterity but cannot do that. > Something like what is on this page? > http://www.solivant.com/sun100/ Nothing similar there. > Bitsavers: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sun/sun1/ the one above is the previous version to the manual I have. According to the first page, the single volume Sun-1 System Reference Manual from July 1982 was replaced by two volumes the User Guide, which I have, and the Programmer's Reference Manual which I do not have. The older manual is probably more useful but this one is expanded (according to revision page) to include 1/2" and 1/4" tape drives and Fujitsu disk drives. I see that the CDC Lark operation is in here, the Sun-1 that I dealt with had a CDC Lark cartridge unit and I still have some of the old Lark cartridges and no possible way to read them. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Sat Oct 15 00:21:29 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 23:21:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: LA36, LA120 prints In-Reply-To: uboDbW1nGfdZcuboEbILEI References: uboDbW1nGfdZcuboEbILEI Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2016, Paul Anderson wrote: > If they are not scanned, I'll pay to ship them to Al or whoever. > > Thanks, Paul Paul, I went to the bitsavers site and found a fairly good selection of LA120 docs (which may or may not contain all that I have) but they don't seem to have much on the LA36. There Sun-1 and DPC manuals that I have do not seem to be there either. I looked for contact information on the sitev but I cannot find any, I am willing to send these for scanning but I do not know how to make contact, I have not the time, skill, or tools to scan them myself. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 02:37:36 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 08:37:36 +0100 Subject: IBM 370 Hard Drive In-Reply-To: <6ecc8a99-be8e-4343-9678-1231fd432043@smbfc.net> References: <580160D0.6090707@gmail.com> <005901d2266f$1cf6d710$56e48530$@gmail.com> <6ecc8a99-be8e-4343-9678-1231fd432043@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <00f301d226b7$00294120$007bc360$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason > Howe > Sent: 15 October 2016 03:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 370 Hard Drive > > On 10/14/2016 04:03 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > >> Berger > >> Sent: 14 October 2016 23:49 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: IBM 370 Hard Drive > >> > >> On 2016-10-14 7:42 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > >>> Came across this in the local craigslist today: > >>> > >>> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sop/5820161303.html > >>> > >>> I don't know if this is of interest to the Big Iron IBM guys, but if > >>> there's any interest from folks not in the Seattle Area, I'm happy > >>> to help faciliate. > >>> > >>> --Jason > >> That is a 62PC I don't know of any 370 systems that used them, I > >> think the closed they came to a mainframe was they where used in the > >> 8130 and > >> 8140 systems. There was also at least one in every S/38, in the > >> later > > days of > >> S/38 it was usually only one with the system microcode on it and it > >> was > > run > >> isolated from the rest of the disk storage because of their tendency > >> to > > die > >> suddenly. I believe that 62PCs where also used in S/34 and Series/1. > >> > >> Paul. > > I was going to say it didn't look like any S/370 drive I had seen. Its > > also only the Head and Disk assembly (HAD) and if the spindle has been > > turned and who wouldn't turn the spindle, its probably toast. It would > > make a nice museum exhibit, provided it was donated, but I think $185 > > is optimistic...] > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > Interesting. I know nothing about older IBM stuff other than people say that > it's a little hard to come by, hence why I relayed the find to the list -- just in > case it was worth it. > > --Jason Jason, Should have said thanks. It is interesting to see such items, and its also nice to remember that in the 370 days IBM made many systems, not just 370. Some of this was fall out from the "abandoned" "Future Systems" project but it was also coupled with the Anti-Trust legislation. I was told by an IBM'er that IBM was Worried it would be split in two, and as such had engineered the product line such that in this event, both halves would have kit to sell that they could make themselves. So while System/3 and System/36 could use some S/370 peripherals they had a complete range of different devices, such as twin-ax terminals. Weird... In the event it didn't happen and IBM was left with multiple incompatible designs... Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 15 06:55:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 07:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) Message-ID: <20161015115556.D3CD018C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rick Bensene > Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the time) > floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in tandem with the > main CPU I wonder if the machines in the auction had this? Noel From abs at absd.org Sat Oct 15 07:08:19 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 13:08:19 +0100 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 15 October 2016 at 03:29, Tony Aiuto wrote: > I used most of the SEL/Gould/Encore machines. The 32/77 was an original > SEL design, from before Gould bought them. It ran MPX-32, their real-time > OS. TTL based. The 32/87 was ECL, in a much bigger cabinet. They made > slight hardware changes to the 32/77 and 32/75 and released them as the > PowerNode PN7000 and PN5000, which ran UTX-32, their Unix port. IIRC, we > took a few 77's and changed one board in the chassis to turn them into > PowerNodes. > Random Gould side reference. We had a PN9080 and PN6040 at City University as the main systems in the late 90's (accessed via the usual mix of ADM3As, ADM5s, some Sun3s and a whole bunch of Whitechapel MG-1s, ans some colour terminals of which I cannot recall the name, but I remember them having a setting where they would auto colour characters based on their clas - alpha one colour, numbers another, and two or three other colours for the rest of ASCII) I remember looking at the filesystem and thinking "Mmm, on disk formats with 32 bit timestamps but with padding ready to be taken to 64 bit when needed, nice future proofing". When the CS department finally moved away from their own 6040 it was left forgotten in a room over the summer - in the autumn the aircon was found to have failed, overflowed and the machine was sitting there with water all over the floor and in a steam bath. Still running fine. Quite robust that ECL :) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 15 09:33:43 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 07:33:43 -0700 Subject: Unibus controller for MFM disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can only think of one, the AED WINC-08 RL02 system, but that used 8" drives Good luck finding one, and the matching interface card. I don't think Qualogy Emulex or Dilog ever made MFM for Unibus. MFM controllers were mainly a QBus market. I suppose some day I should make a list of all of the Unibus/Qbus disk and tape controller vendors I can think of. There is a project going on right now in support of the Y-Combinator Alto restoration to create a Diablo model 30 drive emulator. Given how many RK11's there are in the world, that might be an option once it's working. There is also the German RL02 drive emulator, which seems to have stalled again. I hope someone gets a Q/Unibus non-mscp small disk emulator PCB built some day. I wonder if Guy has had any time to work on his. On 10/14/16 8:25 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I don't know that Digital ever had a Unibus disk controller for ST412 > interface disks, but were there any third party controllers? I'm in > need of disk controllers for PDP-11/40 and think that might be an > option given the availability of reliable MFM disk emulators. > > -chuck > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 15 09:35:39 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 07:35:39 -0700 Subject: Manuaal for the original Sun Workstation In-Reply-To: References: <57FF11E5.4010801@oryx.us> Message-ID: I may have scanned other versions, no time to look right now. and.. people are STILL trying to find a good copy of the Sun Microsystems 68000 boot prom, as far as I know. On 10/14/16 10:05 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > the one above is the previous version to the manual I have. According > to the first page, the single volume Sun-1 System Reference Manual from > July 1982 was replaced by two volumes the User Guide, which I have, and > the Programmer's Reference Manual which I do not have. The older > manual is probably more useful but this one is expanded (according to > revision page) to include 1/2" and 1/4" tape drives and Fujitsu disk > drives. I see that the CDC Lark operation is in here, the Sun-1 that > I dealt with had a CDC Lark cartridge unit and I still have some of the > old Lark cartridges and no possible way to read them. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 15 09:37:36 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 07:37:36 -0700 Subject: LA36, LA120 prints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9eaf4b03-550c-77ec-9f36-cf17224d137f@bitsavers.org> scanned.. no time to post-process right now If someone REALLY needs this, LMK For the couple of people that have been to my new office, there is a 3ft high 4ft long pile of paper in front of the scanner right now that I haven't had time to even look at. On 10/14/16 10:21 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > but they don't > seem to have much on the LA36. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 15 09:58:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 07:58:59 -0700 Subject: DRAM for the 6085/1186 Message-ID: FYI www.ebay.com/itm/112167073659 This guy was the second listing he's put up. I suspect he has more. I tried the two sets he put up the first time, and they work fine on the 6085. They are hard enough to find at that price, I thought I'd let people know. He also has the Fujitsu MB8266A nibble-mode 64k used on the video board still listed at a really good price www.ebay.com/itm/111235545807 From rlloken at telus.net Sat Oct 15 11:13:39 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 10:13:39 -0600 (MDT) Subject: LA36, LA120 prints In-Reply-To: vQ4obrgY8fdZcvQ4pbZKsx References: vQ4obrgY8fdZcvQ4pbZKsx Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > scanned.. no time to post-process right now > If someone REALLY needs this, LMK My read of this is that have all the Sun-1 and DECwriter II and III docs that matter so I will pass on all this paper to somebody else without thinking furter about scanning them. As for the Data Printer Corporation docs, I never expected them to be a sought after item and I have one candidate so I will send them them there. I have access to a lot of old Sun and DEC documentation, is there anything from those two sources that you are looking for? (Aside from Sun proms which I do not have.) I have until January 1 to find homes for a lot of this stuff before it stops being available to me and starts to be destroyed. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Oct 15 11:29:30 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 12:29:30 -0400 Subject: 1966-68 Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516 Console Message-ID: <5ca74.35cbd6cd.4533b36a@aol.com> Nice Find Bill! The mention of the kitchen computer makes me wonder how many of those still exist or... how many were sold? Has anyone dome a detailed write up on it? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/14/2016 4:14:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, writes: I recently came upon the console for a Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516, which is the older brother of the Honeywell Kitchen computer (DDP-316). Took a lot of photos: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655 Bill From andy.holt at tesco.net Sat Oct 15 12:07:16 2016 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:07:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <251806066.123311.1476551236942.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Brownlee" > > We had a PN9080 and PN6040 at City University as the main systems in the > late 90's Ah, yes, "The Magic Roundabout" - was three 6040s and one 9080. I still possess the Gould nameplate from the 9000. They were the last machines we had that we though of as mainframes (even if many would call them minis - but I think the racks were wider than 19" so they clearly weren't minis!) There's some interest in the story of how this system came together: we did have a Honeywell dual 66/60 which was supplemented by the 9000 as a time-sharing system when we had had it 5 years. After two more years we calculated that we could buy and maintain the trio of 6000s for less than the maintenance cost for the three years that the Honeywell was due to remain and gain a noiceable increase in computing power (and a noticeable decrease in power consumption) by doing so ? and actually managed to convince the bean counters of this. > (accessed via the usual mix of ADM3As, ADM5s, some Sun3s and a > whole bunch of Whitechapel MG-1s, ans some colour terminals of which I > cannot recall the name, but I remember them having a setting where they > would auto colour characters based on their clas - alpha one colour, > numbers another, and two or three other colours for the rest of ASCII) I also forget what those colour terminals were. The first Sun came along when it turned out that it was cheaper to buy it and an Ada* compiler than the Ada for the Honeywell. * Computer Science /insisted/ they needed an Ada compiler. They never used it - but the Sun was useful :-) > When the CS department finally moved away from their own 6040 it was left > forgotten in a room over the summer - in the autumn the aircon was found to > have failed, overflowed and the machine was sitting there with water all > over the floor and in a steam bath. Still running fine. Don't remember that - but certainly believable > Quite robust that ECL :) Um, I don't think the 6000s were ECL - think they were a reimplementation of the 9000 using cheaper technology - probably whatever was the current "state of the art" TTL (don't think CMOS had taken-over for speed yet) Thanks, Abs, for reminding me of those times. Andy From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 15 12:17:11 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 10:17:11 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A457@mail.bensene.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Aiuto Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 7:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) I used most of the SEL/Gould/Encore machines. The 32/77 was an original SEL design, from before Gould bought them. It ran MPX-32, their real-time OS. TTL based. The 32/87 was ECL, in a much bigger cabinet. They made slight hardware changes to the 32/77 and 32/75 and released them as the PowerNode PN7000 and PN5000, which ran UTX-32, their Unix port. IIRC, we took a few 77's and changed one board in the chassis to turn them into PowerNodes. The instruction set was more RISC-y than CISC-y. The floating point was base 16 exponent rather than base 2. Because of the way they did normalization, there were a lot of bit patterns which were impossible results. I made a lot of use of those to represent special values. I'm glad it was saved. Bob: I may have a lot of software for it, if I can find the tapes and they are still readable. I even got hold of their secret C compiler port. On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I have been given an lot of SEL software and documentation, along with > a simulator Now, I need to get off my butt and put it all on line. > > Thank you for saving the system, Bob. > > On 10/13/16 8:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > On 10/13/2016 9:01 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > >>> I'm curious what the Systems 32/77 is.. > >>> Wasn't Gould SEL? maybe an SEL system? > >> > >> The 32/77-series was a 32-bit machine implemented in ECL, based on > >> earlier SEL designs, but is definitely Gould in design/manufacture. > >> > >> Some of the machines in the series had a very powerful (for the > >> time) floating point unit (known as the IPU) that operated in > >> tandem with the main CPU that vastly increased the number-crunching > >> power available > >> > >> The machines were mainly intended for real-time control > >> applications (as used in the flight sim applications in the > >> auction) > >> > >> The machine ran a real-time executive called MPX-32. > >> > >> More information: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_77.htm > >> > >> Years ago, I had some experience with these machines. They were > >> quite powerful for their time, and were also workhorses that just ran and ran. > >> Very robust design. > >> > >> These are neat machines, and I hope that they end up in the hands > >> of someone that can care for them rather than ending up scrap. > >> > >> -- > >> Rick Bensene > >> The Old Calculator Museum > >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > >> > > > > > > Well... with a momentary lapse of reason, I bought the Gould / SEL > system. It won't go to scrap. > > No idea how I'm going to get it, and what I'm going to do with it, > > but > after reading about it last night, > > I thought it might be fun to play with. We'll see... > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 12:39:35 2016 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 13:39:35 -0400 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <251806066.123311.1476551236942.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <251806066.123311.1476551236942.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: Yes. The 8 & 9 machines were ECL, the rest were TTL. IIRC, those were the 32/87, 9780, PN9600. David mentioned disks on the PN (Unix) series. Those were formatted with multiple of 512 byte sectors. The RTM/MPX machines used 768 byte sectors, which was super optimal for the disks they happened to ship with their earliest machines, but then a right PITA for everyone who used the machines for decades beyond that. It was not just the strange size, but I think the minimal disk allocation unit was something like 16K, and you only got 8 or 16 chances to add new segments to that. You better know how big your file would grow before you started writing. It's all slowly leaking back into my brain. The early machines, were number 32/xx and ran RTM, their Real Time Monitor. The xx was, IIRC, 27, 75, 77, 87. Very much process control oriented. A terminal *could* be hooked up to an editor task that could edit code and submit jobs, but then it could not detach and let you interact with another program. The company I worked for hacked up a task swapping capability on top of it so we could actually get work done. That was 1976 or so. Around 1982?, they added an MMU and introduced MPX, the Mapped Programming Executive. That was much more usable, but still with the problematic disk layout. I think the numbering changed then to x7nn, where X was the overall technology and nn was a size within that. I know there was an 8750, 8780, 9780, 6780, 2750, and 7750. Those were the MPX machines. The UTX (Unix) machines replaced the 7 with a 0, giving David his PN9080 and PN6050. For unrelated reasons, I have to clean my basement today. Who knows what I will dig up. On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 1:07 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Brownlee" > > > > > We had a PN9080 and PN6040 at City University as the main systems in the > > late 90's > Ah, yes, "The Magic Roundabout" - was three 6040s and one 9080. I still > possess the Gould nameplate from the 9000. > They were the last machines we had that we though of as mainframes (even > if many would call them minis - but I think the racks were wider than 19" > so they clearly weren't minis!) > > There's some interest in the story of how this system came together: > we did have a Honeywell dual 66/60 which was supplemented by the 9000 as > a time-sharing system when we had had it 5 years. > After two more years we calculated that we could buy and maintain the > trio of 6000s for less than the maintenance cost for the three years > that the Honeywell was due to remain and gain a noiceable increase in > computing power (and a noticeable decrease in power consumption) by > doing so ? and actually managed to convince the bean counters of this. > > > (accessed via the usual mix of ADM3As, ADM5s, some Sun3s and a > > whole bunch of Whitechapel MG-1s, ans some colour terminals of which I > > cannot recall the name, but I remember them having a setting where they > > would auto colour characters based on their clas - alpha one colour, > > numbers another, and two or three other colours for the rest of ASCII) > > I also forget what those colour terminals were. The first Sun came along > when it turned out that it was cheaper to buy it and an Ada* compiler than > the Ada for the Honeywell. > * Computer Science /insisted/ they needed an Ada compiler. > They never used it - but the Sun was useful :-) > > > When the CS department finally moved away from their own 6040 it was left > > forgotten in a room over the summer - in the autumn the aircon was found > to > > have failed, overflowed and the machine was sitting there with water all > > over the floor and in a steam bath. Still running fine. > > Don't remember that - but certainly believable > > > Quite robust that ECL :) > Um, I don't think the 6000s were ECL - think they were a reimplementation > of > the 9000 using cheaper technology - probably whatever was the current > "state of the art" TTL (don't think CMOS had taken-over for speed yet) > > Thanks, Abs, for reminding me of those times. > > Andy > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Oct 15 13:56:19 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:56:19 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? Message-ID: <86EC1EC9-B2F6-428A-BFAB-11F907262B51@nf6x.net> I have an opportunity to make a "reasonable offer" on a fairly complete SOL-20 system. It would include a floppy drive cabinet and some software, but no monitor. It's a "working when retired" system, so I assume that the keyboard has died of old age and some capacitors might have dried out; none of that bothers me, but it implies that it's probably not a turnkey system. I have to make the offer or not by tonight, based on when the owner is leaving on a road trip that will pass near me, with or without the system loaded up in his RV. Now the problem is that I haven't been following SOL-20 prices, so I don't know what a reasonable offer might be. The only prices I'm aware of are the various buy-it-now prices I see on eBay, some or all of which I suspect are from sellers looking for top dollar and then some. If any of y'all can help me figure out a reasonable price range for a complete-ish but not necessarily running SOL-20 system, I would appreciate that. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jsw at ieee.org Sat Oct 15 14:04:45 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:04:45 -0500 Subject: Bootable 8" floppy needed for PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E8AA9FF-AD71-4F13-830D-488158A27241@ieee.org> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:53 PM, Scott Baker wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a PDP-11/23 system with a DSD-440 dual 8" floppy drive. > On reset, it prints: > > 28 > START? > > and waits for the operator to insert a bootable 8" floppy and type DY0. > The problem is I do not have a bootable 8" floppy. > > The DSD-440 should be compatible with either RX01 or RX02. > > Can anyone on this list help me out with a bootable 8" floppy? > I will gladly pay for the floppy + shippng costs. > > Thanks, > Scott > > PS: Pictures of the system can be found here: > http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/pdp11 Hi Scott, Congrats. If no-one can get you one faster, I can probably do one later in the week. I need to setup my RX02, not having used it since February. What version of RT11 do you want? I?ll include a copy of Kermit to make sure you can download other files. Regards, Jerry jsw at ieee.org From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sat Oct 15 14:04:05 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 12:04:05 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? Message-ID: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> SOL-20s have been all over the map. ?Ive seen similar units diverge by as much as $500 for nothing obvious I can see. ?The average for unknown, complete, decent cosmetic condition seems to be around $900. With extras probably $1300? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: "Mark J. Blair" Date: 2016-10-15 11:56 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? I have an opportunity to make a "reasonable offer" on a fairly complete SOL-20 system. It would include a floppy drive cabinet and some software, but no monitor. It's a "working when retired" system, so I assume that the keyboard has died of old age and some capacitors might have dried out; none of that bothers me, but it implies that it's probably not a turnkey system. I have to make the offer or not by tonight, based on when the owner is leaving on a road trip that will pass near me, with or without the system loaded up in his RV. Now the problem is that I haven't been following SOL-20 prices, so I don't know what a reasonable offer might be. The only prices I'm aware of are the various buy-it-now prices I see on eBay, some or all of which I suspect are from sellers looking for top dollar and then some. If any of y'all can help me figure out a reasonable price range for a complete-ish but not necessarily running SOL-20 system, I would appreciate that. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Oct 15 14:08:50 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 12:08:50 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:04, Brad H wrote: > > > > SOL-20s have been all over the map. Ive seen similar units diverge by as much as $500 for nothing obvious I can see. The average for unknown, complete, decent cosmetic condition seems to be around $900. With extras probably $1300? Thanks for your data point! That's not as expensive as I was worried it might be. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From AppleCorey at optonline.net Sat Oct 15 14:42:42 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 15:42:42 -0400 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> Message-ID: <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 3:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:04, Brad H wrote: >> >> >> >> SOL-20s have been all over the map. Ive seen similar units diverge by as much as $500 for nothing obvious I can see. The average for unknown, complete, decent cosmetic condition seems to be around $900. With extras probably $1300? > > Thanks for your data point! That's not as expensive as I was worried it might be. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > Keep in mind since it's not currently confirmed working that effects the price. If there is no scratches or rust on the system it will be worth more can be a lot more, minimum 1000 to 1500 in non working condition. Early Sol-20 were rust buckets both on the case and the chassis. I usually can find non working rust bucket for about $500. I can usually get them working on a few hours. A really good condition with manuals and confirmed working Sol-20 currently sell for more than 2k. Monitors don't count and can be found cheaply. Heck I used a $100 LCD screen mounted on the wall for the longest time with one so I wouldn't scratch the perfect top on one of. One. The disk drive can really affect value. If it's a Northstar system, then maybe add 400 bucks the most. If it's a Helios. A working drive can be priceless if the drive is still the original Persci one. Non-working Helios can be like a trip to vegas. They have a glass voice coil which tend to damage if not shipped correctly and plastic eject gears that split. I would pay about 1k to 1500 for a non-working Helios including the two cards depending on the condition of the case. I generally assume a non working drive as a core drive for parts and if the glass isn't broken and the gears aren't split it's a candidate for a complete overhaul including bearings and that takes time and skill. I've been working on one on and off for about a year now, putting a few hours in every few weeks or so. I couldn't even venture to guess the price of a working Helios. There are less of them around than fingers on my hand and toes on my feet. A few more things to note. Assume the keyboard needs new foam, no big deal. Check the wood to make sure it's not cracked. And make sure you have the personality module included. Good luck, Cheers, Corey From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 15:04:20 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 15:04:20 -0500 Subject: NWA auctions (GP-4, SEL 32) In-Reply-To: <002c01d2255e$d0c76e10$72564a30$@pacbell.net> References: <002c01d2255e$d0c76e10$72564a30$@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <8CEFEC03-443C-48D7-B71C-02749D0E19EF@gmail.com> On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:33 AM, William Maddox wrote: > This looks like a GP-4, though I am suspicious that parts of it have been modernized. The GP-4 had a drum memory. > > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Genal-Precision-Systems-2-door-avionics-cabinets/32464723/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464723 > > Someone should grab the SEL machines: > > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/Simulator-avionics-cabinet/32464645/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464645 > > There are a few 3C cards in the pallets of parts, and a few can be seen in the 7th photo here: > > https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/aspr/2-door-avionics-cabinets/32464736/LotDetail.asp?lid=32464736 > > Computer Control Company machines (e.g. DDP-124) were widely used in simulators in the mid/late 1960s, when many simulators for aircraft of that vintage were built. > The computer itself is nowhere in sight, however. Probably, all that remains are specialized simulator interfaces, with the PC in the last photo doing the computing. :( > > --Bill > > Did anyone on the list grab the GP-4? I just returned from the NWA center and while claiming my Documation reader I had a chance to look around the room (and there are LOTS of computer rooms there). That GP is an absolute beast, 3 rows of interconnected cabinets full of circuit cards and power supplies. The name plate says it was originally sold to Continental Airlines. The drum has been replaced with a solid state emulator and it looks like the core may have also been upgraded. What I also noticed were piles of books, binders, and file cabinets full of system documentation including original schematics and system diagrams. I sure hope those weren't sold as separate lots. There also appeared to be more DEC related equipment than I recall on the auction site, or perhaps sold under ambiguous lot names. Any PDP buyer(s) should have a good look around that computer room for associated documents, PCBs, binders, etc. for the sold systems before the paperwork gets tossed. -C From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 16:31:05 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Corey Cohen wrote: > A few more things to note. Assume the keyboard needs new foam, no big > deal. Check the wood to make sure it's not cracked. And make sure you > have the personality module included. Does the disk system include a boot disk? Minus a few hundred, if not! What documentation comes with it? Some manuals, such as Digital Research CP/M manuals add only a little. But any original ProcTology (not the official nickname) manuals are to be prized. I've heard that a lot of that is now available online. NO idea about price(s). My first Apple2 was a home lashup where somebody put an Apple motherboard into a Sol case, with an RCA membrane keyboard connected by a cable hanging out the front. He sold it to me for $150 when he finally got a "REAL" Apple2 in a REAL Apple case. WHY did I give that away? Later, I was given a Sol-20, without disk drive. After it had been hanging around for years, I loaned it to a colleague, for him to try to get his going. But then, the college tried to FIRE him for, among other things, retrieving computers from college dumpsters and having too much old computer stuff. The judge of the arbitration reversed the firing, but the college had already dumpstered ALL of "that junk" from his office. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From isking at uw.edu Sat Oct 15 16:41:13 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:41:13 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > But then, the college tried to FIRE him for, among other things, > retrieving computers from college dumpsters and having too much old > computer stuff. The judge of the arbitration reversed the firing, but the > college had already dumpstered ALL of "that junk" from his office. > > Please tell me that said institution has since been burned to the ground. "That junk", indeed. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 16:53:28 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Ian S. King wrote: > Please tell me that said institution has since been burned to the ground. > "That junk", indeed. WHEN they burn to the ground (there are four campuses and a small complex of administration buildings), I will lose my retirement health benefits. But, my pension is managed by the state, so I would get by. From AppleCorey at optonline.net Sat Oct 15 17:27:18 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 18:27:18 -0400 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> Message-ID: corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 15, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Corey Cohen wrote: >> A few more things to note. Assume the keyboard needs new foam, no big deal. Check the wood to make sure it's not cracked. And make sure you have the personality module included. > > Does the disk system include a boot disk? Minus a few hundred, if not! > > What documentation comes with it? > Some manuals, such as Digital Research CP/M manuals add only a little. > But any original ProcTology (not the official nickname) manuals are to be prized. I've heard that a lot of that is now available online. > > > NO idea about price(s). > > My first Apple2 was a home lashup where somebody put an Apple motherboard into a Sol case, with an RCA membrane keyboard connected by a cable hanging out the front. He sold it to me for $150 when he finally got a "REAL" Apple2 in a REAL Apple case. WHY did I give that away? > > Later, I was given a Sol-20, without disk drive. After it had been hanging around for years, I loaned it to a colleague, for him to try to get his going. But then, the college tried to FIRE him for, among other things, retrieving computers from college dumpsters and having too much old computer stuff. The judge of the arbitration reversed the firing, but the college had already dumpstered ALL of "that junk" from his office. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Boot disk is easy if it's a Northstar. There are enough of us who can help out with that. Micropolis are also easy. I can also help if it's a Helios. Cheers, Corey From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Oct 15 18:37:02 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 16:37:02 -0700 Subject: Unibus controller for MFM disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007F95EB-2A2E-4C43-9A46-9894653CDE71@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 7:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > I hope someone gets a Q/Unibus non-mscp small disk emulator PCB built > some day. I wonder if Guy has had any time to work on his. > No, I haven?t had any time to work on stuff. I still have the prototype MEM11A only half built. > > On 10/14/16 8:25 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> I don't know that Digital ever had a Unibus disk controller for ST412 >> interface disks, but were there any third party controllers? I'm in >> need of disk controllers for PDP-11/40 and think that might be an >> option given the availability of reliable MFM disk emulators. >> >> -chuck >> > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 18:53:05 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 12:53:05 +1300 Subject: Unibus controller for MFM disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 3:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I can only think of one, the AED WINC-08 RL02 system, but that used 8" drives > Good luck finding one, and the matching interface card. I don't think Qualogy > Emulex or Dilog ever made MFM for Unibus. MFM controllers were mainly a QBus > market. I suppose some day I should make a list of all of the Unibus/Qbus disk > and tape controller vendors I can think of. > > There is a project going on right now in support of the Y-Combinator > Alto restoration to create a Diablo model 30 drive emulator. > Given how many RK11's there are in the world, that might be an option > once it's working. There is also the German RL02 drive emulator, which > seems to have stalled again. > > I hope someone gets a Q/Unibus non-mscp small disk emulator PCB built > some day. I wonder if Guy has had any time to work on his. A plug-compatible Massbus disk/tape emulator would be a Good Thing; there are things like pdp-10s that rely exclusively on Massbus and rare finicky power-hungry beasts like RP06. I kinda heard that LCM were working on something like that but don't know how far they got. Setasi had a disk emulator system based on a PC with a Massbus-on-FPGA card but they're rare and pretty unmaintainable too; I have one but not got it working yet. IBM channel-attached DASD would be another good one. It exists - the FlexCub. I know LCM use those too - but the price is commercial and way way up there. A hobbyist license for that would be helpful! I have a System/3 pretty much ready to boot - but it never will unless I can find or emulate the 3340 disks which are the only things it can use. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Oct 15 19:02:47 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:02:47 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> Message-ID: <8F232106-C8B1-47DB-BF7F-209004BE9E69@nf6x.net> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:42, Corey Cohen wrote: > > The disk drive can really affect value. If it's a Northstar system, then maybe add 400 bucks the most. If it's a Helios. A working drive can be priceless if the drive is still the original Persci one. I believe that it has a Morrow Disk Jockey controller, and one or two external Morrow drives marked "Thinker Toys" on the back (not sure whether one or two are part of the offer yet). Anyway, thanks for the input, everybody! I've made an offer, and I'll post an update after the seller and I either reach a deal or decide we're too far apart on price. Either way, this is fun! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Oct 15 20:13:27 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 18:13:27 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <8F232106-C8B1-47DB-BF7F-209004BE9E69@nf6x.net> References: <2kadyaekb9qqu1as7h8jrl6w.1476558245961@email.android.com> <385B62F7-BDED-4119-AE38-52FC2F086E9E@optonline.net> <8F232106-C8B1-47DB-BF7F-209004BE9E69@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <74C1DA77-9722-490B-8963-46A2A3E3E60F@nf6x.net> As promised, I have an update: The seller and I have finished haggling, with the deal to be completed in a little over a week, for an undisclosed sum to be paid in small, unmarked bills. Thanks for the help, folks! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 20:55:16 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 21:55:16 -0400 Subject: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66? Message-ID: I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It has a 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something. Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do not hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to power on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a huge pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare keyboard and mouse too. Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers. I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just not interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have plenty of DOS machines here and did not bother. I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can sit on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for grabs too. I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to make a spot on my desk and fire them up. --Devin From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 21:02:17 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 21:02:17 -0500 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? Message-ID: Congratulations! Fun to find some of the wooden generation of computers. Keep us posted on the restoration efforts (if any) :-) -------- Original message --------From: "Mark J. Blair" ?the deal to be completed in a little over a week From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Oct 15 21:25:28 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 19:25:28 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:02, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Congratulations! Fun to find some of the wooden generation of computers. Keep us posted on the restoration efforts (if any) :-) I don't think I have any other wooden computers yet. The seller had an interesting tale about the origin of the wood in these particular computers. As the legend goes, the father of one of the principals of Processor Technology had a contract to remove wharfs from along the Mississippi river, which happened to be made of black walnut. And thus, the SOL-20 received stylish black walnut side panels, hopefully without too much lingering wharf smell. I don't know if the tale is true, but I have chosen to believe it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 22:28:22 2016 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 20:28:22 -0700 Subject: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 6:55 PM, devin davison wrote: > I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It has a > 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something. > Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do not > hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to power > on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a huge > pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare > keyboard and mouse too. > > Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers. > > I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just not > interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a > machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have plenty > of DOS machines here and did not bother. > > I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can sit > on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for > grabs too. > > I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to make a > spot on my desk and fire them up. > > --Devin > I am interested if you are close to Oregon? Where is the computer located? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 22:43:00 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (killingsworth.todd at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 23:43:00 -0400 Subject: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FDBD687-8E8A-4400-A1C1-DD2A593916D5@gmail.com> Or Atlanta perhaps? Todd Killingsworth Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 6:55 PM, devin davison wrote: >> >> I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It has a >> 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something. >> Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do not >> hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to power >> on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a huge >> pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare >> keyboard and mouse too. >> >> Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers. >> >> I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just not >> interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a >> machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have plenty >> of DOS machines here and did not bother. >> >> I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can sit >> on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for >> grabs too. >> >> I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to make a >> spot on my desk and fire them up. >> >> --Devin > > I am interested if you are close to Oregon? Where is the computer located? > > Paxton > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 23:14:51 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 00:14:51 -0400 Subject: any interest in a power macintosh 6100/66? In-Reply-To: <0FDBD687-8E8A-4400-A1C1-DD2A593916D5@gmail.com> References: <0FDBD687-8E8A-4400-A1C1-DD2A593916D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Located in Vero Beach Florida, 32967 Sorry, forgot to mention location --Devin On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:43 PM, wrote: > Or Atlanta perhaps? > Todd Killingsworth > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 15, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Paxton Hoag > wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 6:55 PM, devin davison > wrote: > >> > >> I picked up a bit of an odball power macintosh 6100 a while back. It > has a > >> 486 cpu at 66 mhz in it as well, so you can run dos on it or something. > >> Overall looks to be in somewhat working shape, but does not boot. I do > not > >> hear the hard drive spinning, I am guessing it is bad.I can get it to > power > >> on to the little flashing icon with the question mark. It came with a > huge > >> pile of cables for connecting extra monitors, and i should have a spare > >> keyboard and mouse too. > >> > >> Anyone want this thing? I am open to offers. > >> > >> I can't absorb another world. I have too much on the table, and am just > not > >> interested in the PPC mac stuff. I thought it would be cool to have a > >> machine that would run both mac software and dos, but I already have > plenty > >> of DOS machines here and did not bother. > >> > >> I have a couple of other tiny performa PPC machines that a monitor can > sit > >> on top of as well, those I know to be fully functional. those are up for > >> grabs too. > >> > >> I can get pictures and specs upon request, that would require me to > make a > >> spot on my desk and fire them up. > >> > >> --Devin > > > > I am interested if you are close to Oregon? Where is the computer > located? > > > > Paxton > > > > -- > > Paxton Hoag > > Astoria, OR > > USA > From AppleCorey at optonline.net Sun Oct 16 05:54:41 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 06:54:41 -0400 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 15, 2016, at 10:25 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:02, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >> Congratulations! Fun to find some of the wooden generation of computers. Keep us posted on the restoration efforts (if any) :-) > > I don't think I have any other wooden computers yet. The seller had an interesting tale about the origin of the wood in these particular computers. As the legend goes, the father of one of the principals of Processor Technology had a contract to remove wharfs from along the Mississippi river, which happened to be made of black walnut. And thus, the SOL-20 received stylish black walnut side panels, hopefully without too much lingering wharf smell. I don't know if the tale is true, but I have chosen to believe it. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > That's a new story to me, I always heard they came across a bunch of gunstock wood and were looking for a project. The wood is very good condition for reclaimed wood that made up a dock that was near water and in sun. I have seen old docks and that wood is good for kindling and not furniture. Still would be good to try to confirm the story. Cheers. Corey From AppleCorey at optonline.net Sun Oct 16 05:54:41 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 06:54:41 -0400 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 15, 2016, at 10:25 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:02, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >> Congratulations! Fun to find some of the wooden generation of computers. Keep us posted on the restoration efforts (if any) :-) > > I don't think I have any other wooden computers yet. The seller had an interesting tale about the origin of the wood in these particular computers. As the legend goes, the father of one of the principals of Processor Technology had a contract to remove wharfs from along the Mississippi river, which happened to be made of black walnut. And thus, the SOL-20 received stylish black walnut side panels, hopefully without too much lingering wharf smell. I don't know if the tale is true, but I have chosen to believe it. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > That's a new story to me, I always heard they came across a bunch of gunstock wood and were looking for a project. The wood is very good condition for reclaimed wood that made up a dock that was near water and in sun. I have seen old docks and that wood is good for kindling and not furniture. Still would be good to try to confirm the story. Cheers. Corey From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 08:19:28 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 09:19:28 -0400 Subject: 1966-68 Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516 Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 16, 2016 6:12 AM, "jim stephens" wrote: > > > > On 10/14/2016 4:14 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> I recently came upon the console for a Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516, which is >> the older brother of the Honeywell Kitchen computer (DDP-316). Took a lot >> of photos: >> >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655 >> >> Bill > > Very nice photos. Reminds me of Sherman's 440 console a lot > > The two empty slots may be for connector cards for the cabling from the panel into the system? > thanks > Jim The schematics available include console data and power paths. Basically there is a Teletype interface and a computer interface, similar to a front panel cable to the computer. That's where all that happens, plus power connectors. B From js at cimmeri.com Sun Oct 16 11:01:38 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 11:01:38 -0500 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> On 10/16/2016 5:54 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> On Oct 15, 2016, at 10:25 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> >> I don't think I have any other wooden computers yet. The seller had an interesting tale about the origin of the wood in these particular computers. As the legend goes, the father of one of the principals of Processor Technology had a contract to remove wharfs from along the Mississippi river, which happened to be made of black walnut. And thus, the SOL-20 received stylish black walnut side panels, hopefully without too much lingering wharf smell. I don't know if the tale is true, but I have chosen to believe it. >> >> -- >> Mark J. Blair, NF6X >> http://www.nf6x.net/ >> > That's a new story to me, I always heard they came across a bunch of gunstock wood and were looking for a project. The wood is very good condition for reclaimed wood that made up a dock that was near water and in sun. I have seen old docks and that wood is good for kindling and not furniture. > > Still would be good to try to confirm the story. > > Cheers. > Corey I agree. Even if the wharfwood was useable, the amount of working it would need over other forms would not usually be considered worth the time, especially for such small pieces. Also, walnut is not a preferred wood for dock building. - J. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Oct 16 12:22:33 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 10:22:33 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56879306-88E6-4142-8C9F-49FDCDCF765C@nf6x.net> The gunstock wood origin story sounds more plausible, but less fragrant. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 08:10:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 09:10:03 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! In-Reply-To: <0628c6b0-78c8-0426-35cc-343555d6b0bb@snarc.net> References: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> <0628c6b0-78c8-0426-35cc-343555d6b0bb@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2016 5:52 AM, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: >> >> I mean please add 110 Baud Evan! > > > I was giving examples, not carved-in-stone specifications. If the system is simple it'll be easier to support, 110b is not, given the number of persons coming in from the other end so slowly. No one barely has a phone line anymore as it is, most (95%) of the external traffic will be telnet. If the bbs allows those few of us with phone lines to connect at 300 to 1200b to get to a handshake and resolve to a simple welcome screen for hardware testing purposes, that would be a good start. Get that running see what kind of traffic results, and plan phase ii from there. I imagine it will be best once this system is up and running that people call in on Sunday afternoon so visitors to the museum hear the inbound calls in real time like a sys op would running a bbs from his basement. Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 16 09:28:53 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 14:28:53 +0000 Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Where are you at and what seems to be the problem? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Phillips Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:38:34 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed I have a Comdyna GP-6 analog computer that I need repaired ASAP. Anyone available to help me out? Bill Phillips wcphillips at verizon.net From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 16 13:15:50 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 14:15:50 -0400 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! Message-ID: <795b9.62c9d7c1.45351dd6@aol.com> ??? from the modem end a Hayes or anything else that does 300/1200 also did 110 as I remember as that was under the bell 103 spec. (110 adn 300 baud) I suppose just a matter of your uart being able to talk to the modem at that speed ( which should not be a problem??!) Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/16/2016 6:10:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, billdegnan at gmail.com writes: On Oct 16, 2016 5:52 AM, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: >> >> I mean please add 110 Baud Evan! > > > I was giving examples, not carved-in-stone specifications. If the system is simple it'll be easier to support, 110b is not, given the number of persons coming in from the other end so slowly. No one barely has a phone line anymore as it is, most (95%) of the external traffic will be telnet. If the bbs allows those few of us with phone lines to connect at 300 to 1200b to get to a handshake and resolve to a simple welcome screen for hardware testing purposes, that would be a good start. Get that running see what kind of traffic results, and plan phase ii from there. I imagine it will be best once this system is up and running that people call in on Sunday afternoon so visitors to the museum hear the inbound calls in real time like a sys op would running a bbs from his basement. Bill From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Sun Oct 16 13:37:08 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 11:37:08 -0700 Subject: ASR 33 buzzing In-Reply-To: References: <36DBC079-DFC5-4D5A-8038-F6F4AA2F9DE1@gmail.com> <05fd01d22654$b2265290$1672f7b0$@bettercomputing.net> <05fe01d22657$46161bf0$d24253d0$@bettercomputing.net> <060301d22659$26bf45e0$743dd1a0$@bettercomputing.net> <060d01d2265d$a62285a0$f26790e0$@bettercomputing.net> <061001d2265e$d5161060$7f423120$@bettercomputing.net> <061401d2265f$65737620$305a6260$@bettercomputing.net>, <063101d22673$392905d0$ab 7b1170$@better computing.net> Message-ID: <06d401d227dc$4e535c20$eafa1460$@bettercomputing.net> So I've been having fun going over this 33, trying to follow the schematics I've found. Still like visiting an alien world but, I did manage to get the keyboard functioning properly and fixed a couple of broken keys, so that's progress at least. I've tested the caps and they seem to come back okay, as do resistors. I've looked around for any stray/frayed wires. I figure if the thing was working before it left Toronto something might have gotten loose or broken. There were also three machine screws installed for transport, I don't think they would have accidentally touched anything they shouldn't, but who knows. Anyway I'm looking again at the three fuses up top .. 1/2, 3/8 and 8a. They're intact but they look a bit rusty inside: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4pq0-BHd2x6bjY3MTRZbGRCQmM I don't know how much rust affects these fuses - I would have assumed they'd just blow if they were compromised. But I'll order some new ones in case. From isking at uw.edu Sun Oct 16 14:07:24 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 12:07:24 -0700 Subject: Unibus controller for MFM disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > A plug-compatible Massbus disk/tape emulator would be a Good Thing; > there are things like pdp-10s that rely exclusively on Massbus and > rare finicky power-hungry beasts like RP06. I kinda heard that LCM > were working on something like that but don't know how far they got. > When I left in 2014, LCM's Massbus disk emulator was working quite well indeed, and was running in 'production' to keep down the hours on the RP06 drives. ISTR the plan was always to open-source the hardware and firmware, too. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 16 14:14:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 20:14:49 +0100 Subject: LA36, LA120 prints In-Reply-To: References: vQ4obrgY8fdZcvQ4pbZKsx Message-ID: <006901d227e1$90c2b510$b2481f30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Loken > Sent: 15 October 2016 17:14 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: LA36, LA120 prints > > On Sat, 15 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > > > scanned.. no time to post-process right now If someone REALLY needs > > this, LMK > > My read of this is that have all the Sun-1 and DECwriter II and III docs that > matter so I will pass on all this paper to somebody else without thinking > furter about scanning them. > > As for the Data Printer Corporation docs, I never expected them to be a > sought after item and I have one candidate so I will send them them there. > > I have access to a lot of old Sun and DEC documentation, is there anything > from those two sources that you are looking for? (Aside from Sun proms > which I do not have.) I have until January 1 to find homes for a lot of this > stuff before it stops being available to me and starts to be destroyed. > I would say that at least anything listed on Manx as not being online would be worth saving. Regards Rob From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 16 15:10:47 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 22:10:47 +0200 Subject: HP 9826A on Epay Message-ID: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> I was jusy crawling ePay and found this one. For who is interested, about one hour left, 1 bid $100,- at this moment. I'm not the seller or affiliated with him or her. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-9826-Hewlett-Packard-With-Catalog-parts-Or-Repair -Only-/172369586516 -Rik From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 16 15:49:53 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 13:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > I don't think I have any other wooden computers yet. The seller had an > interesting tale about the origin of the wood in these particular > computers. As the legend goes, the father of one of the principals of > Processor Technology had a contract to remove wharfs from along the > Mississippi river, which happened to be made of black walnut. And thus, > the SOL-20 received stylish black walnut side panels, hopefully without > too much lingering wharf smell. I don't know if the tale is true, but I > have chosen to believe it. "This was real. This was more real even than reality. This was history. It might not be true, but that had nothing to do with it." - Terry Pratchett "Wyrd Sisters" On the other hand, the wood top for the Northstar Horizon was plywood from Ashby Lumber. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 15:51:23 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 21:51:23 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2016 Message-ID: <00dc01d227ef$0e691380$2b3b3a80$@gmail.com> A few pics. I know is a facebook link but you should be able to view without signing up. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10211268710019994.1073741835.14268 00809 &type=1&l=7dbd490379 Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 16:22:36 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 14:22:36 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <2a4b2625-973f-6f69-509e-8adc82ff8f2c@sydex.com> On 10/16/2016 01:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "This was real. This was more real even than reality. This was > history. It might not be true, but that had nothing to do with it." - > Terry Pratchett "Wyrd Sisters" > > > On the other hand, the wood top for the Northstar Horizon was > plywood from Ashby Lumber. Fred, you're forgetting the "People's World Computer", out of Berkeley, I believe. Wood case complete with brass plaque. I had a chance years ago to get one and I passed it up. I still have the boot disk, however. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 16 17:16:34 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 15:16:34 -0700 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> 48 min to go at 315 PDT Bit thing not in listing is an SA-1004 disk. And I'm suspicious it is an 8086, but who knows. Certainly has many serials on the back. Moore-Business-Systems-Altos-ASC-8000-10A-Zilog-Z80-CP-M-Multi-user-Computer http://www.ebay.com/itm/311713600878 From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 17:38:39 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 15:38:39 -0700 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2016 3:19 PM, "jim stephens" wrote: > > > 48 min to go at 315 PDT > > Bit thing not in listing is an SA-1004 disk. And I'm suspicious it is an 8086, but who knows. Certainly has many serials on the back. > > Moore-Business-Systems-Altos-ASC-8000-10A-Zilog-Z80-CP-M-Multi-user-Computer > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/311713600878 I had one of those that I gave to Josh. It was mostly working at the time. It was Z80 based. Has the one in the listing here had the hard drive platter brutally removed? Didn't take a close look at all of the photos to be sure. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 16 17:41:19 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 15:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <2a4b2625-973f-6f69-509e-8adc82ff8f2c@sydex.com> References: <9ED7A65C-6710-41DB-81FF-EFA4079AC5B0@nf6x.net> <5803A462.4070700@cimmeri.com> <2a4b2625-973f-6f69-509e-8adc82ff8f2c@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> "This was real. This was more real even than reality. This was >> history. It might not be true, but that had nothing to do with it." - >> Terry Pratchett "Wyrd Sisters" >> On the other hand, the wood top for the Northstar Horizon was >> plywood from Ashby Lumber. On Sun, 16 Oct 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Fred, you're forgetting the "People's World Computer", out of Berkeley, > I believe. Wood case complete with brass plaque. I had a chance years > ago to get one and I passed it up. > I still have the boot disk, however. Don't know that one. There was also "Community Memory" (Lee Felsenstein), which had a coin-op wood housed terminal, but the computer that it communicated with wasn't wood. There were a LOT of tiny computer companies that got started in Berkeley, such as "Thinker Toys" (Morrow) and "Kentucky Fried Computers" (Northstar). Once they started to grow, they moved out of Berkeley as fast as they could. (My business never grew that much) From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 16 19:04:18 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 17:04:18 -0700 Subject: Xerox 6085 IOP firmware Message-ID: <61aed726-34b3-e435-8e6c-0074b774db16@bitsavers.org> On messftp/uploads/6085_IOP_Firmware.zip I have been working on trying to get Smalltalk running on it, so I went through and checked all of my IOP boards for different revs of firmware. There are only two that I found, the later one added support for >80mb disks. The 6085 has a 80186 instead of the 8085 in the 8010, and there is much more code running on it than what was on the 8010. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 16 19:11:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 17:11:08 -0700 Subject: Xerox 6085 IOP firmware In-Reply-To: <61aed726-34b3-e435-8e6c-0074b774db16@bitsavers.org> References: <61aed726-34b3-e435-8e6c-0074b774db16@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1115ee2a-c8a7-eeb3-2d15-daa9480a5df3@bitsavers.org> oops. anyway, just put it up on bitsavers/pdf/xerox/6085 as well On 10/16/16 5:04 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On messftp/uploads/6085_IOP_Firmware.zip > > I have been working on trying to get Smalltalk running on it, so I went through and checked > all of my IOP boards for different revs of firmware. There are only two that I found, the later > one added support for >80mb disks. > > The 6085 has a 80186 instead of the 8085 in the 8010, and there is much more code running on it > than what was on the 8010. > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 20:38:55 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 01:38:55 +0000 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 16, 2016 3:19 PM, "jim stephens" wrote: > > > > > > 48 min to go at 315 PDT > > > > Bit thing not in listing is an SA-1004 disk. And I'm suspicious it is an > 8086, but who knows. Certainly has many serials on the back. > > > > > Moore-Business-Systems-Altos-ASC-8000-10A-Zilog-Z80-CP-M- > Multi-user-Computer > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/311713600878 > > I had one of those that I gave to Josh. It was mostly working at the time. > It was Z80 based. > > Has the one in the listing here had the hard drive platter brutally > removed? Didn't take a close look at all of the photos to be sure. > I think this is one page from the manual related to the 8500 board vintagecomputer.net/altos/8000 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Oct 16 20:39:36 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 02:39:36 +0100 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! In-Reply-To: References: <68487.147c1eb0.4530bb76@aol.com> <0628c6b0-78c8-0426-35cc-343555d6b0bb@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 16/10/2016 14:10, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 16, 2016 5:52 AM, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: >>> I mean please add 110 Baud Evan! >> >> I was giving examples, not carved-in-stone specifications. > If the system is simple it'll be easier to support, 110b is not, given the > number of persons coming in from the other end so slowly. No one barely > has a phone line anymore as it is, most (95%) of the external traffic will > be telnet. If the bbs allows those few of us with phone lines to connect > at 300 to 1200b to get to a handshake and resolve to a simple welcome > screen for hardware testing purposes, that would be a good start. Get that > running see what kind of traffic results, and plan phase ii from there. > > I imagine it will be best once this system is up and running that people > call in on Sunday afternoon so visitors to the museum hear the inbound > calls in real time like a sys op would running a bbs from his basement. > Bill Speaking as a former Sysop from the 1980's. What would be nice is a couple of DEC Rainbows running FidoBBS and connected via a phone line simulator. Enter your mail message on one and see it get transferred to the other where it can be read. Rod Smallwood -- *PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now* From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Oct 16 21:06:27 2016 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 22:06:27 -0400 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20161016220627.3fe258c8@verticle> On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 01:38:55 +0000 william degnan wrote: > On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Glen Slick > wrote: > > > On Oct 16, 2016 3:19 PM, "jim stephens" wrote: > > > > > > > > > 48 min to go at 315 PDT > > > > > > Bit thing not in listing is an SA-1004 disk. And I'm suspicious > > > it is an > > 8086, but who knows. Certainly has many serials on the back. > > > > > > > > Moore-Business-Systems-Altos-ASC-8000-10A-Zilog-Z80-CP-M- > > Multi-user-Computer > > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/311713600878 > > > > I had one of those that I gave to Josh. It was mostly working at > > the time. It was Z80 based. > > > > Has the one in the listing here had the hard drive platter brutally > > removed? Didn't take a close look at all of the photos to be sure. > > > > I think this is one page from the manual related to the 8500 board > vintagecomputer.net/altos/8000 > My ACS8000-10 was a Z80 system with MP/M installed. Working condition, but lost along with an ADDS Regent 25 terminal, a DS50 disk, the left hand door to a DS990 rack, and other items, to the higher imperatives of crackheads needing scrap to peddle, some time back. Moral of the story is along the lines of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", or maybe "money talks but bs walks", when it comes to secure storage or shop facilities, but then patronage always comes at a price, too. C'est la guerre, er, vie. Sorry to wax philosophical. jbdigriz From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Oct 16 22:45:35 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 20:45:35 -0700 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1406e0ec-3b9a-734d-19f4-51decac3b320@crash.com> On 10/16/2016 15:38, Glen Slick wrote: > > Has the one in the listing here had the hard drive platter brutally > removed? Didn't take a close look at all of the photos to be sure. By my previous viewing of the pics in that auction - yes, somebody ripped the platters out of the HDD, breaking the arms the R/W heads were mounted on. Said heads were left dangling. IIRC the auction copy indicated something had been done to the PSU as well. There was a close-up of some wires soldered to some spade lugs, but I don't recall seeing a good photo of the PSU itself. It didn't sell, so there's a good chance it'll be listed again in a few days. They tend to give things a few shots before they stop relisting. --S. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 16 22:52:05 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 20:52:05 -0700 Subject: One last epay for the day, TEC terminal Message-ID: <72e62b74-92e5-36e1-8a0c-2212f2a9936a@jwsss.com> Since some need to possibly use current loop, I was searching and thought it useful to bring this to people's attention. The TEC is also one of the terminals in the video I posted a few days ago related to "Jobs" if you care to look. I've used these and at the time the only problem I had was dropping them on your foot, they are not light. the vendor says that Bitsavers has the manual, which may make this a bit attractive as well, saving looking all over the place for documentation. The screen doesn't look great, but might be usable w/o a huge amount of work. Another thing that ones here may be able to use is that it has the video output option installed, so one could drive a modern monitor, or presentation projector in a display situation with this one. I think the ones we had were a bit fancier, and had a block of indicators on one side or the other that you could blink, this one does not. 1972-TEC-440-Serial-Terminal-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/262674442502 no affiliation, just wish I had room for it, hope someone can use it. i'll throttle myself for a few days unless I see a random 360/50 or so for sale so I am not bothering those who don't like these. Apologies in advance. thanks Jim From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Oct 16 23:16:01 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 21:16:01 -0700 Subject: VCFed, the BBS! Message-ID: I could care less about telnet... I want to make the teletype ?clack! ? Ed# Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Rod Smallwood Date: 10/16/16 18:39 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VCFed, the BBS! On 16/10/2016 14:10, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 16, 2016 5:52 AM, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: >>> I mean? please add 110? Baud? Evan! >> >> I was giving examples, not carved-in-stone specifications. > If the system is simple it'll be easier to support, 110b is not, given the > number of persons coming in from the other end so slowly.? No one barely > has a phone line anymore as it is, most (95%) of the external traffic will > be telnet.? If the bbs allows those few of us with phone lines to connect > at 300 to 1200b to get to a handshake and resolve to a simple welcome > screen for hardware testing purposes, that would be a good start. Get that > running see what kind of traffic results, and plan phase ii from there. > > I imagine it will be best once this system is up and running that people > call in on Sunday afternoon so visitors to the museum hear the inbound > calls in real time like a sys op would running a bbs from his basement. > Bill Speaking as a former Sysop from the 1980's. What would be nice is a couple of DEC Rainbows running FidoBBS and connected via a phone line simulator. Enter your mail message on one and see it get transferred to the other where it can be read. Rod Smallwood -- *PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now* From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Oct 16 23:52:03 2016 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 21:52:03 -0700 Subject: One last epay for the day, TEC terminal Message-ID: These things came in all sorts of colors !Ec# Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jim stephens Date: 10/16/16 20:52 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: One last epay for the day, TEC terminal Since some need to possibly use current loop, I was searching and thought it useful to bring this to people's attention.? The TEC is also one of the terminals in the video I posted a few days ago related to "Jobs" if you care to look.? I've used these and at the time the only problem I had was dropping them on your foot, they are not light. the vendor says that Bitsavers has the manual, which may make this a bit attractive as well, saving looking all over the place for documentation.? The screen doesn't look great, but might be usable w/o a huge amount of work. Another thing that ones here may be able to use is that it has the video output option installed, so one could drive a modern monitor, or presentation projector in a display situation with this one. I think the ones we had were a bit fancier, and had a block of indicators on one side or the other that you could blink, this one does not. 1972-TEC-440-Serial-Terminal-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/262674442502 no affiliation, just wish I had room for it, hope someone can use it. i'll throttle myself for a few days unless I see a random 360/50 or so for sale so I am not bothering those who don't like these. Apologies in advance. thanks Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 00:25:59 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 22:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone with a CDC disk pack reader that can help Paul Vixie? Message-ID: <201610170525.u9H5PxUZ19857536@floodgap.com> Apparently Paul Vixie's got a CDC Hawk disk pack from an Alpha Micro AM-100/T that he'd like to get the bits off of (he'll worry about the file system separately). I have a controller card in an unknown state but I don't have any way of reading the disk pack, so it will probably be easier to do this in a separate working system, which does not need to be Alpha Micro. If you've got a means of doing this, I'll get you in touch with him. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- One learns to itch where one can scratch. -- Ernest Bramah ----------------- From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 03:03:33 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 01:03:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone built or had any experience with this (or any other) RL02 emulator? http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html Thanks, Scott From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Oct 17 03:58:39 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 09:58:39 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy 2016 In-Reply-To: <00dc01d227ef$0e691380$2b3b3a80$@gmail.com> References: <00dc01d227ef$0e691380$2b3b3a80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79e3fcc0-6b82-8085-22bc-9e7667f21e60@wickensonline.co.uk> Thanks for the photos Dave. Regards, Mark. On 10/16/2016 9:51 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10211268710019994.1073741835.1426 > 800809&type=1&l=7dbd490379 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 17 04:54:08 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 02:54:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/17/2016 1:03 AM, Scott Baker wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone built or had any experience with this (or any other) RL02 > emulator? > > http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html > > Thanks, > Scott I think that is the project that Al refers to in a posting Friday: "There is also the German RL02 drive emulator, which seems to have stalled again" http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-October/028417.html It sounded like the fellow did a lot of good research, but I didn't see a completed state of the project. And he had questions about the electronics that I didn't see clear answers posted to. thanks Jim From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 05:00:36 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 06:00:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d2285d$4f383940$eda8abc0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 5:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation On 10/17/2016 1:03 AM, Scott Baker wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone built or had any experience with this (or any other) RL02 > emulator? > > http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html > > Thanks, > Scott I think that is the project that Al refers to in a posting Friday: "There is also the German RL02 drive emulator, which seems to have stalled again" http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-October/028417.html It sounded like the fellow did a lot of good research, but I didn't see a completed state of the project. And he had questions about the electronics that I didn't see clear answers posted to. thanks Jim ----- See this thread - Lou got one working using a DE0 Nano: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?40147-Improved-RL01-RL02-disc-simulator-available Also: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?44728-Request-for-comment-Modifed-circuit-of-RL01-RL02-disc-emu-I-F-(mod-from-pdp11gy-com) ----- From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 17 05:03:51 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 03:03:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation (project info links posted to list) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/17/2016 2:54 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > > Has anyone built or had any experience with this (or any other) RL02 > emulator? This is the end status of the page. in update 1.1B, he states that the board is not available, but shows the board: http://www.pdp11gy.com/doneE.html In update 1.1C there are some project files. I have saved them to look at, but don't know if enough is there to try to duplicate his work, or if it will result in a working drive emulation. Project information Technical information: MFM decoder http://www.pdp11gy.com/MFM-D.html MFM encoder http://www.pdp11gy.com/MFME-D.html Project information: The beginning http://www.pdp11gy.com/hist2D.html Architecture http://www.pdp11gy.com/hist3D.html Flow chart http://www.pdp11gy.com/hist1D.html perhaps someone can contact him. I won't put his email address or name here for archival, but it is on this page: http://www.pdp11gy.com/0E.html Looks like a nice project to help with, or pick up. thanks Jim From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 17 07:39:59 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 07:39:59 -0500 Subject: very cheap eBay.de Apple offerings Message-ID: <01d501d22873$933bde10$b9b39a30$@com> http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html/?_saslop=1 &_sasl=tom201513 Scroll down for a box of 5.25" floppies for Apple with no bids yet. Cindy Croxton From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 09:03:14 2016 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (SilverCreekValley) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 15:03:14 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Sun Enterprise Exxxx Message-ID: <28ED42E7-FDF4-4817-8AFC-1850585C0B92@yahoo.com> Hi all, Looking for a Sun Enterprise E3xxx/E4xxx ? any model really. I have a few CPU modules and it would be great to have one of these machines up and running again. I?m in the UK ? and can collect. Reasonable price paid J PM if you have anything . Cheers Ian From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Oct 17 09:20:27 2016 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:20:27 -0400 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: <1406e0ec-3b9a-734d-19f4-51decac3b320@crash.com> References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> <1406e0ec-3b9a-734d-19f4-51decac3b320@crash.com> Message-ID: <20161017102027.3030802b@verticle> On Sun, 16 Oct 2016 20:45:35 -0700 Steven M Jones wrote: > IIRC the auction copy indicated something had been done to the PSU as > well. There was a close-up of some wires soldered to some spade lugs, > but I don't recall seeing a good photo of the PSU itself. IIRC, mine had a big, heavy transformer for the linear power supply. The pictures showing the innards seem to be gone now, but that would be low-hanging fruit. Fe, Cu, Al. I hope the seller merely received the unit in this condition, and didn't gut it themselves. C'est la guerre, though, in either case. jbdigriz From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 17 10:01:50 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 16:01:50 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Sun Enterprise Exxxx In-Reply-To: <28ED42E7-FDF4-4817-8AFC-1850585C0B92@yahoo.com> References: <28ED42E7-FDF4-4817-8AFC-1850585C0B92@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <280e17aa-a431-5f6f-6eab-624f7cef587d@btinternet.com> Hi I have a Sun Enterprise 3000 surplus to requirements. It did boot last time I tried it. I'm near Newbury UK Rod Smallwood On 17/10/2016 15:03, SilverCreekValley wrote: > Hi all, > > > > Looking for a Sun Enterprise E3xxx/E4xxx ? any model really. I have a few CPU modules and it would be great to have one of these machines up and running again. I?m in the UK ? and can collect. > > > > Reasonable price paid J > > > > PM if you have anything . > > > > Cheers > > > > Ian > -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 17 10:38:36 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 08:38:36 -0700 Subject: Anyone with a CDC disk pack reader that can help Paul Vixie? In-Reply-To: <201610170525.u9H5PxUZ19857536@floodgap.com> References: <201610170525.u9H5PxUZ19857536@floodgap.com> Message-ID: There's one on eBay, don't know if I'd trust it. www.ebay.com/itm/152238200965 They were sold with Intel MDS's I've got one or two from a TI 990 They are HEAVY They are basically IBM 5440 media. The format is in the queue to read, along with about a dozen others of more importance. Be warned, Billy Pettit told me CDC/MPI built dozens of variants of that drive for people, so you may have to wait until bit-level recovery is running somewhere. The good news is they are low density low speed single platter media, so the chances are good the data can be recovered if the platter is clean. On 10/16/16 10:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Apparently Paul Vixie's got a CDC Hawk disk pack from an Alpha Micro AM-100/T > that he'd like to get the bits off of (he'll worry about the file system > separately). I have a controller card in an unknown state but I don't have > any way of reading the disk pack, so it will probably be easier to do this > in a separate working system, which does not need to be Alpha Micro. > > If you've got a means of doing this, I'll get you in touch with him. > From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 17 10:58:18 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 17:58:18 +0200 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM Message-ID: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody has any experience with that: http://www.drem.info/ ? From fulivi at tiscali.it Mon Oct 17 11:02:59 2016 From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 18:02:59 +0200 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com> References: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com> Message-ID: <093066ca-582a-c259-94fb-1a99626be357@tiscali.it> Hi everyone, does anyone of you happen to have the images of the firmware ROM of HP98034 module and/or of the HP9895 disk drive, please? I'm working on implementing these devices on my MAME-based simulator of HP9845B systems. Thank you. -- F.Ulivi From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Oct 17 11:16:00 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 09:16:00 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 17, 2016, at 08:58, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > anybody has any experience with that: > > http://www.drem.info/ There's a very recent thread at VCF about using one with a Tandy model 6000: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54511-Tandy-6000-HD-with-DREM-HD-Emulator -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 17 11:16:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 12:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) Message-ID: <20161017161610.EDCE618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian S. King > When I left in 2014, LCM's Massbus disk emulator was working quite well > indeed, and was running in 'production' ... ISTR the plan was always to > open-source the hardware and firmware, too. I'm interested in this (as I suspect are lots of other people with machines that can use MASSBUS disks). Can you briefly describe what it was? Does anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source it? Noel From cube1 at charter.net Mon Oct 17 11:23:15 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 11:23:15 -0500 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <29d06cb1-bed8-2405-aa7d-16ffc840b302@charter.net> The back label says 8000-10A, which should indeed be a Z80 system with a hard disk. I have an Altos 1004 disk for the thing (and experience with its power supply ;) ), but when I bought mine, my seller (not the same as this one) mis-listed the CPU unit as having the disk controller, which was not actually present - he used a stock photo to sell multiple units. (I did receive some compensation for that). The disk controller on this unit looks to be correct. On 10/16/2016 5:16 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > 48 min to go at 315 PDT > > Bit thing not in listing is an SA-1004 disk. And I'm suspicious it is > an 8086, but who knows. Certainly has many serials on the back. > > Moore-Business-Systems-Altos-ASC-8000-10A-Zilog-Z80-CP-M-Multi-user-Computer > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/311713600878 > From pete at pski.net Mon Oct 17 11:18:13 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 12:18:13 -0400 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > anybody has any experience with that: > > http://www.drem.info/ > > ? Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a Tandy 6000 and Xenix. I can format and I can do MFM reads but I am currently having an issue with CRC checks during writes which are failing for the Tandy's WD1010 controller. I think it's an easy fix so I'm in contact with the DREM team and hopefully it will be going well soon. I'll keep you updated. Overall, I think it's a pretty solid product and a great solution to the dwindling supply of working MFM drives. Plus, backups are super easy with the SD card support. And the detailed logging allowed me to easily pinpoint the issue with the CRC checks. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Oct 17 11:24:50 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 09:24:50 -0700 Subject: One last epay for the day, TEC terminal In-Reply-To: <72e62b74-92e5-36e1-8a0c-2212f2a9936a@jwsss.com> References: <72e62b74-92e5-36e1-8a0c-2212f2a9936a@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <074c01d22892$fce184e0$f6a48ea0$@bettercomputing.net> I was going to grab that but I've tested my wife's patience enough this month, between the Mark-8 boards and this teletype I have. I would like to one day have a good example of a 1973 or earlier glass terminal just to show people the alternative to the TVT I'm building. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: One last epay for the day, TEC terminal Since some need to possibly use current loop, I was searching and thought it useful to bring this to people's attention. The TEC is also one of the terminals in the video I posted a few days ago related to "Jobs" if you care to look. I've used these and at the time the only problem I had was dropping them on your foot, they are not light. the vendor says that Bitsavers has the manual, which may make this a bit attractive as well, saving looking all over the place for documentation. The screen doesn't look great, but might be usable w/o a huge amount of work. Another thing that ones here may be able to use is that it has the video output option installed, so one could drive a modern monitor, or presentation projector in a display situation with this one. I think the ones we had were a bit fancier, and had a block of indicators on one side or the other that you could blink, this one does not. 1972-TEC-440-Serial-Terminal-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/262674442502 no affiliation, just wish I had room for it, hope someone can use it. i'll throttle myself for a few days unless I see a random 360/50 or so for sale so I am not bothering those who don't like these. Apologies in advance. thanks Jim From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 11:36:12 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> anybody has any experience with that: >> >> http://www.drem.info/ The device may be great, but their website is a script-laden dumpster fire. According to Lynx it has no non-script text to even render. Firefox with NoScript enabled renders a blank page as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 11:47:13 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 09:47:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: <093066ca-582a-c259-94fb-1a99626be357@tiscali.it> References: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com> <093066ca-582a-c259-94fb-1a99626be357@tiscali.it> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:02 AM, F.Ulivi wrote: > Hi everyone, > > does anyone of you happen to have the images of the firmware ROM of > HP98034 module and/or of the HP9895 disk drive, please? > I'm working on implementing these devices on my MAME-based simulator of > HP9845B systems. > Where is the firmware on the 9895A? Is it in a 24-pin DIP package mask ROM near the lower right corner of this picture? http://www.hpmuseum.net/images/09895-66500-26.jpg Hmm, looking in the service manual it appears there were several versions of the controller board. Some with multiple PROMs and some with a single ROM, and some with a Z80 and some with an MC2 (micro-CPU, the '2' is a superscript). http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07902-90030_7902_9895_Svc_Jan81.pdf I have a 9895A. Don't know which version of the controller PCB it has without digging it out to take a look. From js at cimmeri.com Mon Oct 17 11:58:16 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 11:58:16 -0500 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> On 10/17/2016 11:18 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> anybody has any experience with that: >> >> http://www.drem.info/ >> >> ? > Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a Tandy 6000 and Xenix. ... About $250? Wish it were half that. Seems like they could sell more than twice as many at half the price, and more than 4 times as many at 1/4th the price. - J. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 17 12:21:37 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:21:37 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:58 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > On 10/17/2016 11:18 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> anybody has any experience with that: >>> >>> http://www.drem.info/ >>> >>> ? >> Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a Tandy 6000 and Xenix. ... > > About $250? Wish it were half that. Seems like they could sell more than twice as many at half the price, and more than 4 times as many at 1/4th the price. Really? Come on guys, this stuff costs $$?s to produce and they may actually want to make some profit. If you?re doing small volume stuff (10?s-100?s vs 100,000?s - 1,000,000?s) it?s going to be a bit pricey. Frankly, to get the price to drop to half ($125), you?d probably have to get 10x-100x quantity increase. I know because I face the same thing when trying to produce my boards. Assembly will typically double the cost of the board + components. I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 for my Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics 3640). TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 12:23:53 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:23:53 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:58 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > > > > > On 10/17/2016 11:18 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> anybody has any experience with that: > >>> > >>> http://www.drem.info/ > >>> > >>> ? > >> Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a > Tandy 6000 and Xenix. ... > > > > About $250? Wish it were half that. Seems like they could sell more > than twice as many at half the price, and more than 4 times as many at > 1/4th the price. > > Really? Come on guys, this stuff costs $$?s to produce and they may > actually want to make some profit. If you?re doing small volume stuff > (10?s-100?s vs 100,000?s - 1,000,000?s) it?s going to be a bit pricey. > Frankly, to get the price to drop to half ($125), you?d probably have to > get 10x-100x quantity increase. I know because I face the same thing when > trying to produce my boards. Assembly will typically double the cost of > the board + components. > > I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 for my > Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics 3640). > Don't, at least not for the Symbolics gear. The DREM only works with hard drive controllers it knows about, and the Symbolics ain't one of them. I chatted with the developers about what it would take to support them and they see it as being possible, but couldn't commit to it without having hardware on hand to test with. And given how hard it is to get a Symbolics machine to even format a disk once you have a working machine, it's not likely to happen anytime soon. - Josh > > TTFN - Guy > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 17 12:28:21 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:28:21 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 17, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > >> >>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:58 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/17/2016 11:18 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >>>>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> anybody has any experience with that: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.drem.info/ >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>> Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a >> Tandy 6000 and Xenix. ... >>> >>> About $250? Wish it were half that. Seems like they could sell more >> than twice as many at half the price, and more than 4 times as many at >> 1/4th the price. >> >> Really? Come on guys, this stuff costs $$?s to produce and they may >> actually want to make some profit. If you?re doing small volume stuff >> (10?s-100?s vs 100,000?s - 1,000,000?s) it?s going to be a bit pricey. >> Frankly, to get the price to drop to half ($125), you?d probably have to >> get 10x-100x quantity increase. I know because I face the same thing when >> trying to produce my boards. Assembly will typically double the cost of >> the board + components. >> >> I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 for my >> Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics 3640). >> > > Don't, at least not for the Symbolics gear. The DREM only works with hard > drive controllers it knows about, and the Symbolics ain't one of them. I > chatted with the developers about what it would take to support them and > they see it as being possible, but couldn't commit to it without having > hardware on hand to test with. And given how hard it is to get a Symbolics > machine to even format a disk once you have a working machine, it's not > likely to happen anytime soon. > Sad. :-( That probably means it won?t work with the 3174 either. It sounds like they?re not doing bit level capture/replay but actually trying to emulate the actual format (ie knowing about how sectors and addressing are laid out). It make the end result (ie what?s on the SD card) a bit more usable but it also makes the emulation dependent upon what controller is being used. TTFN - Guy From jason at smbfc.net Mon Oct 17 12:42:14 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> >>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> anybody has any experience with that: >>> >>> http://www.drem.info/ > > The device may be great, but their website is a script-laden dumpster fire. > According to Lynx it has no non-script text to even render. Firefox with > NoScript enabled renders a blank page as well. > I noticed that too, I keep a copy of Chrome around for just such horrid sites. There's really no reason for it. Regardless, this looks pretty exciting to me, as I get ready to repair the board on my ST251-1, I wonder how much longer the old drive can realistically last. I wonder if they can put a small speaker on the board to emulate the sounds of an ST251, because damn, this drive sure does like to talk to you. Much like an AirCooled Volkswagen, the first time you use it, you think it's going to blow up, then the crazy noises become the thing that let you know everything is working as it should....but I digress. Agree it's a little pricey, but, in the end almost certainly worth it. I spent far more on my first 20GB 7200RPM IDE Drive. Also, have you priced a NOS MFM hard drive lately? Can you find one? There's joy in keeping all the original stuff running, but at some point that becomes unfeasable -- we're not there yet, but in 10 or 15 years this may prove to have been a good investment. --Jason From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 12:45:43 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 14:45:43 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: References: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com> <093066ca-582a-c259-94fb-1a99626be357@tiscali.it> Message-ID: <58050E47.7080709@gmail.com> On 2016-10-17 1:47 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:02 AM, F.Ulivi wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> does anyone of you happen to have the images of the firmware ROM of >> HP98034 module and/or of the HP9895 disk drive, please? >> I'm working on implementing these devices on my MAME-based simulator of >> HP9845B systems. >> > Where is the firmware on the 9895A? Is it in a 24-pin DIP package mask > ROM near the lower right corner of this picture? > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/images/09895-66500-26.jpg > > Hmm, looking in the service manual it appears there were several > versions of the controller board. Some with multiple PROMs and some > with a single ROM, and some with a Z80 and some with an MC2 > (micro-CPU, the '2' is a superscript). > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07902-90030_7902_9895_Svc_Jan81.pdf > > I have a 9895A. Don't know which version of the controller PCB it has > without digging it out to take a look. Yes that would be it the unpopulated positions would be for versions of the controller using smaller ROMs, The one I have is the 4 ROM version and I am pretty sure I dumped them, I just need to find out where. Paul. From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Oct 17 12:48:59 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:48:59 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <65946577-1897-49B4-A345-F566CF888DBE@nf6x.net> Does anybody here have experience with both the DREM and David Gesswein's MFM emulator? I'm wondering how they compare. I have one of David's emulators. I have only played with it a bit, but I have been pleased with it so far. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 12:59:26 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 10:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Jason Howe wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> anybody has any experience with that: >>>> >>>> http://www.drem.info/ >> >> The device may be great, but their website is a script-laden dumpster fire. >> According to Lynx it has no non-script text to even render. Firefox with >> NoScript enabled renders a blank page as well. >> > I noticed that too, I keep a copy of Chrome around for just such horrid > sites. There's really no reason for it. > Considering there's now JavaScript versions of Cryptolocker out in the wild, I won't even touch it with Chrome. :) > Regardless, this looks pretty exciting to me, as I get ready to repair the > board on my ST251-1, I wonder how much longer the old drive can realistically > last. > The price doesn't bother me much - that's simply a reflection of small-volume production. It would be nice if they'd offer it as a kit though. Maybe release the firmware so folks could add support for other machines. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From js at cimmeri.com Mon Oct 17 13:15:57 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 13:15:57 -0500 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5805155D.2060206@cimmeri.com> On 10/17/2016 12:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:58 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/17/2016 11:18 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >>>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:58 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> anybody has any experience with that: >>>> >>>> http://www.drem.info/ >>>> >>>> ? >>> Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a Tandy 6000 and Xenix. ... >> About $250? Wish it were half that. Seems like they could sell more than twice as many at half the price, and more than 4 times as many at 1/4th the price. > Really? Come on guys, this stuff costs $$?s to produce and they may actually want to make some profit. If you?re doing small volume stuff (10?s-100?s vs 100,000?s - 1,000,000?s) it?s going to be a bit pricey. Frankly, to get the price to drop to half ($125), you?d probably have to get 10x-100x quantity increase. I know because I face the same thing when trying to produce my boards. Assembly will typically double the cost of the board + components. > > ... > > TTFN - Guy Just saying, it'd be nice if the price could be much lower, as it's way beyond my budget at this point in life. Realized after posting that it doesn't scale down pricewise linearly due to the fixed materials cost + well-deserved profit margin. Without knowing those numbers, can't accurately speculate. But I do think that in some cases, more *total profit* could be had by a lower pricepoint. - J. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 13:32:31 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 14:32:31 -0400 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <65946577-1897-49B4-A345-F566CF888DBE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Blair" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 1:48 PM Subject: Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM Does anybody here have experience with both the DREM and David Gesswein's MFM emulator? I'm wondering how they compare. I have one of David's emulators. I have only played with it a bit, but I have been pleased with it so far. ---------------- No experience myself, but FWIW several Cromemco owners have used David's unit successfully with Cromemco's non-standard whole-track-at-a-time controller and have said good things about his willingness to work with non-standard formats. (It's also cheaper, but apparently not available at the moment, unfortunately). m From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 14:55:48 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 15:55:48 -0400 Subject: Unibus controller for MFM disks Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 12:07:24 -0700 > From: "Ian S. King" > Subject: Re: Unibus controller for MFM disks > > When I left in 2014, LCM's Massbus disk emulator was working quite well > indeed, and was running in 'production' to keep down the hours on the RP06 > drives. ISTR the plan was always to open-source the hardware and firmware, > too. > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > I never got the Massbus disk emulator that I was promised for loaning the LCM a board from my KS10. -- Michael Thompson From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Mon Oct 17 14:23:00 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:23:00 +0300 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <65946577-1897-49B4-A345-F566CF888DBE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > Does anybody here have experience with both the DREM and David Gesswein's > MFM emulator? I'm wondering how they compare. I have one of David's > emulators. I have only played with it a bit, but I have been pleased with > it so far. I don't have any experience with DREM, but I recommend David's MFM emulator. I use it on regular basis attached to MVME320 controller. On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:32 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark J. Blair" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 1:48 PM > Subject: Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM > > > Does anybody here have experience with both the DREM and David Gesswein's > MFM emulator? I'm wondering how they compare. I have one of David's > emulators. I have only played with it a bit, but I have been pleased with > it so far. > ---------------- > No experience myself, but FWIW several Cromemco owners have used David's > unit successfully with Cromemco's non-standard whole-track-at-a-time > controller and have said good things about his willingness to work with > non-standard formats. > > (It's also cheaper, but apparently not available at the moment, > unfortunately). > > m > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 17 15:08:02 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 21:08:02 +0100 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <65946577-1897-49B4-A345-F566CF888DBE@nf6x.net> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <65946577-1897-49B4-A345-F566CF888DBE@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <00f701d228b2$2a32d5b0$7e988110$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > Blair > Sent: 17 October 2016 18:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM > > Does anybody here have experience with both the DREM and David > Gesswein's MFM emulator? I'm wondering how they compare. I have one of > David's emulators. I have only played with it a bit, but I have been pleased > with it so far. I have been using David's emulator with some success. I needed to modify it a bit to make it work with a MicroVAX 2000 and it may still need a bit of software work, but I am happy with it. I have the Rev A board, I believe David is planning a new run of updated boards which have some worthwhile convenience changes. Regards Rob From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 17 15:09:07 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:09:07 +0200 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161017161610.EDCE618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161017161610.EDCE618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161017200907.GN26355@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:16:10PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > > When I left in 2014, LCM's Massbus disk emulator was working quite well > > indeed, and was running in 'production' ... ISTR the plan was always to > > open-source the hardware and firmware, too. > > I'm interested in this (as I suspect are lots of other people with machines > that can use MASSBUS disks). Can you briefly describe what it was? Does > anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source it? > > Noel Yes! While I intend to get my Massbus disks running. An emulator would be a great stepping stone. /P From james at attfield.co.uk Mon Oct 17 16:20:17 2016 From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:20:17 +0100 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? Message-ID: <004d01d228bc$43706dd0$ca514970$@attfield.co.uk> > From: "Mark J. Blair" > Subject: Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? > > The gunstock wood origin story sounds more plausible, but less fragrant. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X Not to rain on anyone's parade, but speaking as an owner of probably one of the first Sol-20's in the UK I would have to comment that the wood (which we always thought was a nice touch) was actually quite light in appearance and weight and if anyone had suggested wharf wood at that time I am fairly sure the suggestion would have been met with a degree of scepticism as would the suggestion of gun stock wood (I had achieved my marksman status by then and had some small experience of the feel of the stock in the hand and shoulder). For all that, I liked the SOL-20 as the best word processor on the planet at that time (with the Electric Pencil ROM) as it took great advantage of the VDM-1 memory-mapped display board to achieve what products like WordStar struggled for years to do. In fact, we often used to marry the VDM-1 to the Horizon for that very reason - that and the fact that we could then play ATC (Air Traffic Controller) on the North* which was a great mapped video game unavailable to serial terminals. It was also liked because it had a great keyboard with a good feel and, turn and turn about, could also have the North* drives bolted on to make a great little twin drive system. Another advantage was that we didn't have to solder up all the boards and assemble it like the IMSAI and some of the North* boards. I did love my IMSAI though, but the 8080 CPU was a drag as everyone was gung-ho for the 'new-ish' Z80 even though CP/M was still in 8080-land. Then came Cromemco and everything changed with CDOS and Cromix. People still wanted CP/M though - I recall even now assisting with porting CP/M to a Cromemco Z2 I took down to the Byte Shop in London one weekend. Of course, my IMSAI never flew better than when it was filled with Cromemco boards and a 299B drive on the side :) - those lovely blinkenlighten! Anyhoo - back to the SOL-20 - we always figured that the reason that the wooden side panels were featured was simply because the Horizon (the Big Dog at that time) was available with a very attractive wooden case cover for those who preferred something other than a functional blue metal case (in fact strangely remarkably similar to the blue of the SOL-20). Of course, although opinion may vary, either was arguably more attractive in an office than the metal mesh that SWTPC went with. I say this with some affection since as I write this my foot leans against the case of my old SWTPC AC-30 cassette interface. The innards gave up the ghost long ago but I can't bring myself to skip it as it brings back too many fond memories of a basement, an SWTPC processor, a lovely dual 8" drive unit and FLEX. In summary, if you don't mind an 8080 and you can get some decent drives for it (we were never very fond of the Helios drives) a SOL-20 is a very nice, well designed integrated system. I would have one again in a trice. James From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 16:37:17 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 17:37:17 -0400 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? References: <004d01d228bc$43706dd0$ca514970$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Attfield" To: Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? >... Then came Cromemco and everything changed with CDOS and Cromix. > People still wanted CP/M though - I recall even now assisting with porting > CP/M to a Cromemco Z2 I took down to the Byte Shop in London one weekend. Of > course, my IMSAI never flew better than when it was filled with Cromemco > boards and a 299B drive on the side :) - those lovely blinkenlighten! > ... > James Any chance you still have a copy of that CP/M port buried somewhere? We're sort of collecting the various Cromemco ports and emulators. m From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:31:26 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 21:31:26 +0100 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> > > > > I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 > > for my Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics 3640). > > I gather that some one has the Dave Gershwin board working with a 3174. Was that you. You also need 2.88 format for the 3174 floppies. Any one modified any of the floppy emulators To work at this density. > > Don't, at least not for the Symbolics gear. The DREM only works with hard > drive controllers it knows about, and the Symbolics ain't one of them. I > chatted with the developers about what it would take to support them and > they see it as being possible, but couldn't commit to it without having > hardware on hand to test with. And given how hard it is to get a Symbolics > machine to even format a disk once you have a working machine, it's not > likely to happen anytime soon. > > - Josh > > > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > Dave Wade From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 17 15:38:19 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 13:38:19 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 17, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >>> >>> I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 >>> for my Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics 3640). >>> > > I gather that some one has the Dave Gershwin board working with a 3174. Was that you. > You also need 2.88 format for the 3174 floppies. Any one modified any of the floppy emulators > To work at this density. Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up reliably so that the 3174 boots. Actually, the format is 2.4MB (2x 1.2MB). It?s a 5-1/4? format instead of a 3-1/2? format. TTFN - Guy From jtp at chinalake.com Tue Oct 18 11:34:50 2016 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:34:50 -0400 Subject: FS (cost of shipping): AS/400 8-port twinax concentrator/adapter cables Message-ID: <003c01d2295d$8c004150$a400c3f0$@chinalake.com> I have two IBM 21F5093 AS/400 8-port twinax to DB25 adapters with clip mounts. Looks like the coil is about 14-16 feet of cable. Pics on request. Free for the cost of shipping (01888 metro-west Boston,MA , about 3 lbs each) Need the space, gotta go. From cruff at ruffspot.net Tue Oct 18 12:14:53 2016 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:14:53 -0600 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 18, 2016, at 11:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > does anyone of you happen to have the images of the firmware ROM of > HP98034 module and/or of the HP9895 disk drive, please? I?ve sent F.Ulivi the contents of the single ROM version from my 9895A, along with some preliminary reverse engineering work on the contents that I?ve done in conjunction with Eric Smith. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 16:42:11 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:42:11 +0100 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor Jr > Sent: 17 October 2016 21:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM > > > > On Oct 17, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > >>> > >>> I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 > >>> for my Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics > 3640). > >>> > > > > I gather that some one has the Dave Gershwin board working with a 3174. > Was that you. > > You also need 2.88 format for the 3174 floppies. Any one modified any > > of the floppy emulators To work at this density. > > Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up reliably so > that the 3174 boots. > So still not fixed? > Actually, the format is 2.4MB (2x 1.2MB). It?s a 5-1/4? format instead of a 3- > 1/2? format. > Sorry been working on my PC Server 500, I assume the data rate is double, so the existing devices are not easily modified? > TTFN - Guy Dave From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 17 16:54:45 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 14:54:45 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <82625AC7-0978-4A6A-BD05-DFEDDE971156@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 17, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy >> Sotomayor Jr >> Sent: 17 October 2016 21:38 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM >> >> >>> On Oct 17, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> I?ll likely be getting at least 3 of them (1 for the IBM 3174 and 2 >>>>> for my Symbolics 3640 and possible another 2 for my other Symbolics >> 3640). >>>>> >>> >>> I gather that some one has the Dave Gershwin board working with a 3174. >> Was that you. >>> You also need 2.88 format for the 3174 floppies. Any one modified any >>> of the floppy emulators To work at this density. >> >> Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up reliably so >> that the 3174 boots. >> > > So still not fixed? Nope. Lots of other projects (including work and a major kitchen remodel). ;-) > >> Actually, the format is 2.4MB (2x 1.2MB). It?s a 5-1/4? format instead of a 3- >> 1/2? format. >> > > Sorry been working on my PC Server 500, I assume the data rate is double, so the existing devices are not easily modified? I don?t know. One of my other distractions is trying to get OS/2 (any version) installed on my xSeries 232 so that I can run it as a P/390 and everything is fighting me on that (bad RAID controller, to it not wanting to boot off of a floppy). I finally gave up and purchased a copy of eComStation but that kernel panic?d somewhere during installation. I haven?t even had time to put in a support call. :-( Oh and did I mention that I?ve acquired (just need to move it) an IBM 4331 mainframe including *all* of the peripherals (3340 disk drives + lots of packs, 1403 printer, IBM tape drives, card reader/punch, 029 keypunch, manuals, terminals, etc, etc)? TTFN - Guy From jason at smbfc.net Mon Oct 17 17:08:35 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 15:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 4331 [Was: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM] In-Reply-To: <82625AC7-0978-4A6A-BD05-DFEDDE971156@shiresoft.com> References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> <82625AC7-0978-4A6A-BD05-DFEDDE971156@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > Oh and did I mention that I?ve acquired (just need to move it) an IBM > 4331 mainframe including *all* of the peripherals (3340 disk drives + > lots of packs, 1403 printer, IBM tape drives, card reader/punch, 029 > keypunch, manuals, terminals, etc, etc)? > > TTFN - Guy That seems incredibly cool. Can I ask how one comes by one of these and if they paid you to take it away or vice versa? Some quick research tells me these cost about $70,000 new in '79-'80, the same as the average cost of a house at the time! --Jason From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 17 17:18:15 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 15:18:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 4331 [Was: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM] In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> <82625AC7-0978-4A6A-BD05-DFEDDE971156@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7CCDD3DC-F4A5-400F-9264-E92C34A14D89@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 17, 2016, at 3:08 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >> Oh and did I mention that I?ve acquired (just need to move it) an IBM 4331 mainframe including *all* of the peripherals (3340 disk drives + lots of packs, 1403 printer, IBM tape drives, card reader/punch, 029 keypunch, manuals, terminals, etc, etc)? >> >> TTFN - Guy > > That seems incredibly cool. Can I ask how one comes by one of these and if they paid you to take it away or vice versa? I?ve been on the lookout for IBM mainframes for a while. I did manage to acquire a fully functional Multiprise 3000 that was taken out of service and stored. I was incredibly lucky with that one as it was unmolested (it even came to me in its original IBM shipping crate!). I learned about the 4331 a few years ago and I?d been asking if they were interested in ?getting rid of it?. Every 6 months or so I would ask if they?d made a decision about getting rid of it. Finally about 2 months ago I got an email saying that they had decided to get rid of it. It?s been stored for a number of years even before I found out about it but it has been stored properly. I still imagine that there?s going to be a fair amount of work to get it running again. We?re still working out arranging getting it shipped. TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:29:35 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 18:29:35 -0400 Subject: IBM 4331 [Was: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM] In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> <82625AC7-0978-4A6A-BD05-DFEDDE971156@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Oh and did I mention that I?ve acquired (just need to move it) an IBM 4331 >> mainframe including *all* of the peripherals (3340 disk drives + lots of >> packs, 1403 printer, IBM tape drives, card reader/punch, 029 keypunch, >> manuals, terminals, etc, etc)? Nice. We had a 4331 at Software Results from some time in the early 80s (it was already set up when I started in 1984) until it went off-lease in the late 1980s. We used it for, essentially two things - debugging connectivity to our own products (3780, HASP, and SNA connections) and for circuit boards design for our products (using PADS?) It was the smallest machine we could get that was an SNA PU Type 5 with a PU Type 4 I/O front end. We didn't even come close to making it work hard. Ours just had a couple of disks, some sort of interface for the printer and some 3278 tubes (3174?), and a tape drive. No punchcards. It had the same datacenter footprint as our largest VAX system that ran 50+ users. Fun! -ethan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 17 18:20:28 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 16:20:28 -0700 Subject: IBM 4331 [Was: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM] In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> <58050328.10707@cimmeri.com> <8AC8F279-F12D-46EA-A075-79DD14F28F2F@shiresoft.com> <018901d228b5$70aaa970$51fffc50$@gmail.com> <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> <022e01d228bf$52431bc0$f6c95340$@gmail.com> <82625AC7-0978-4A6A-BD05-DFEDDE971156@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/2016 3:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> Oh and di A friend @ UMSL worked when they had 2 4341s there. All of the campus workload had moved to UMC (Columbia) from St. Louis, so they were idle for 2 or 3 years. he had them as PC's They were stacked on on top of the other, but powered and running. If one wanted the ideal small footprint setup, the best would be the 4361, 4320, and a 3370. The 4361 was I think the only system with a builtin storage director, and the 4320 could connect directly to a channel w/o any controller. The 3370 IIRC correctly was FBA, and I think the controller was FBA (someone corrected me which one it was last time this came up). But any 43xx would be fun to work with. I worked with a maintenance group in the mid 80's and we got 3 or 4 of them scrap, and they all just turned up and worked. almost all the stuff that anyone had had running worked if it was properly de-installed and move in my experience. Might have been unique, but very solid designs and good documents with that hardware. thanks Jim From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 19:07:31 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 19:07:31 -0500 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction Message-ID: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> For those curious about the equipment that sold last week, I put together an album from my brief stop on Saturday. Let me know if you have trouble viewing it. https://goo.gl/photos/yb83SJSj67gS96n39 On closer inspection it appears the documentation for that GP-4, as well as some of the other computers, sold to different parties (the value being in the shelving and cabinets). I'm still losing sleep over that GP-4. From all appearances it was a turn-key setup (in theory). Unfortunately, the auction site immediately removes closed lots from their webpage so no idea what it sold for, or if it went to a scrapper. I suspect it was billed as 'cabinets of aviation equipment'. Being 3 hours away I can't exactly run over there and pin a note on it. Some further digging on the net revealed a photo in the Motorola Annual Report 1965 featuring the machine touting Moto's new ECL logic. Apparently it was designed for aviation simulation but included facilities for being a general purpose machine. -C From isking at uw.edu Mon Oct 17 19:59:46 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 17:59:46 -0700 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161017200907.GN26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161017161610.EDCE618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161017200907.GN26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I've made some inquries, stay tuned.... On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:16:10PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Ian S. King > > > > > When I left in 2014, LCM's Massbus disk emulator was working quite > well > > > indeed, and was running in 'production' ... ISTR the plan was > always to > > > open-source the hardware and firmware, too. > > > > I'm interested in this (as I suspect are lots of other people with > machines > > that can use MASSBUS disks). Can you briefly describe what it was? Does > > anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source it? > > > > Noel > > > Yes! While I intend to get my Massbus disks running. An emulator would > be a great stepping stone. > > /P > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 17 21:20:58 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) Message-ID: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian S. King >> Does anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source >> it? > I've made some inquries, stay tuned.... OK, thanks! >> Can you briefly describe what it was? I'm still curious about what it was: was it a stand-alone board with a separate power supply, or did it plug into some sort of backplane? Did it use something like SD cards for storage? And what was the MASSBUS connection like: a set of 3 Berg headers into which one plugged the flat cables, or was there some oddball connector that wound up connected to a standard MASSBUS connector? Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 23:37:49 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 21:37:49 -0700 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51b53b3e-5ea4-bcf6-3757-9d8eb0a000a3@gmail.com> On 10/17/16 5:07 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > For those curious about the equipment that sold last week, I put together an album from my brief stop on Saturday. Let me know if you have trouble viewing it. > https://goo.gl/photos/yb83SJSj67gS96n39 > > On closer inspection it appears the documentation for that GP-4, as well as some of the other computers, sold to different parties (the value being in the shelving and cabinets). > > I'm still losing sleep over that GP-4. From all appearances it was a turn-key setup (in theory). Unfortunately, the auction site immediately removes closed lots from their webpage so no idea what it sold for, or if it went to a scrapper. I suspect it was billed as 'cabinets of aviation equipment'. Being 3 hours away I can't exactly run over there and pin a note on it. > > Some further digging on the net revealed a photo in the Motorola Annual Report 1965 featuring the machine touting Moto's new ECL logic. Apparently it was designed for aviation simulation but included facilities for being a general purpose machine. -C Thanks for taking the pictures! Now that I can see a clear picture of the front panel on those SEL/Gould machines, I *really* wish I'd bid on one... Thanks for getting a picture of the TI-980 -- do you recall if photo IMG_5542 is from the same rack as the TI? I'm curious what was behind that door on the top and I can't wait until it gets here to find out :). I hope that most of this stuff will end up in the hands of people who won't shred it for gold content, but... - Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 18 00:58:03 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:58:03 +0200 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161018055802.GO26355@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:20:58PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > >> Does anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source > >> it? > > > I've made some inquries, stay tuned.... > > OK, thanks! > > >> Can you briefly describe what it was? > > I'm still curious about what it was: was it a stand-alone board with a > separate power supply, or did it plug into some sort of backplane? Did it use > something like SD cards for storage? And what was the MASSBUS connection > like: a set of 3 Berg headers into which one plugged the flat cables, or was > there some oddball connector that wound up connected to a standard MASSBUS > connector? > > Noel I recall seing a picture of it long ago in someones online album. It was a separate 19 inch box a few RUs high with at least one pcb and a jumble of wires :) Obviously in some sort of development stage and I'm not sure it was working at that point. I think it might even be the compaq rackbox shown here: http://www.panix.com/~alderson/LivingComputerMuseum/07_Storage_comparison_in_open_space.jpg Of course this is just speculation :) /P From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 01:18:41 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 02:18:41 -0400 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161018055802.GO26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161018055802.GO26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <01de01d22907$78f619f0$6ae24dd0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:20:58PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ian S. King > > >> Does anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source > >> it? > > > I've made some inquries, stay tuned.... > > OK, thanks! > > >> Can you briefly describe what it was? > > I'm still curious about what it was: was it a stand-alone board with a > separate power supply, or did it plug into some sort of backplane? Did > it use something like SD cards for storage? And what was the MASSBUS > connection > like: a set of 3 Berg headers into which one plugged the flat cables, > or was there some oddball connector that wound up connected to a > standard MASSBUS connector? > > Noel I recall seing a picture of it long ago in someones online album. It was a separate 19 inch box a few RUs high with at least one pcb and a jumble of wires :) Obviously in some sort of development stage and I'm not sure it was working at that point. I think it might even be the compaq rackbox shown here: http://www.panix.com/~alderson/LivingComputerMuseum/07_Storage_comparison_in _open_space.jpg Of course this is just speculation :) /P ------ Maaaaaybe there are three ribbon cables back there .... What is the big white disk (platters plus heads?) near the front end of the table? ----- paul From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 03:44:39 2016 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:44:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly References: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*************? Contact Rick below if interested.? *************-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Rick Bunker????Contact: rick at bunker.us ????Location: Jenkintown, PA??? I have a computer collection that I have to sell. My wife and I have separated, and the house is being sold, and I have no place to keep the computers in my new apartment. It is a pretty nice collection. Altair 8800, two IMSAI 8080's, an Apple ][ (not ][+ or e or anything, the first one), a TRS-80 (the real first revision, with no numeric keypad, with the original cassette drive, monitor) an LSI monitor, a KIM-1, an original IBM PC (not an XT -- original 2-floppys, original bios), an SwTPC 6800 box, with no innards. Similarly, a Cromemco box with no innards. A Northstar Horizon. Some 8-inch drives, a bunch of S-100 boards, a luggable Kaypro portable, an odd and an end or two. Lots of documentation. Some old disks which may have readable software on them. I don't power these things up, since they have power supplies that you can weld with, with 40-year-old capacitors on them. Is there anybody in striking distance of Philadelphia suburbs, who would consider buying and picking up this collection? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 07:33:22 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:33:22 -0500 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: <51b53b3e-5ea4-bcf6-3757-9d8eb0a000a3@gmail.com> References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> <51b53b3e-5ea4-bcf6-3757-9d8eb0a000a3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 11:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 10/17/16 5:07 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > For those curious about the equipment that sold last week, I put together >> an album from my brief stop on Saturday. Let me know if you have trouble >> viewing it. >> https://goo.gl/photos/yb83SJSj67gS96n39 >> >> On closer inspection it appears the documentation for that GP-4, as well >> as some of the other computers, sold to different parties (the value being >> in the shelving and cabinets). >> >> I'm still losing sleep over that GP-4. From all appearances it was a >> turn-key setup (in theory). Unfortunately, the auction site immediately >> removes closed lots from their webpage so no idea what it sold for, or if >> it went to a scrapper. I suspect it was billed as 'cabinets of aviation >> equipment'. Being 3 hours away I can't exactly run over there and pin a >> note on it. >> >> Some further digging on the net revealed a photo in the Motorola Annual >> Report 1965 featuring the machine touting Moto's new ECL logic. Apparently >> it was designed for aviation simulation but included facilities for being a >> general purpose machine. -C >> > > Thanks for taking the pictures! Now that I can see a clear picture of the > front panel on those SEL/Gould machines, I *really* wish I'd bid on one... > > Thanks for getting a picture of the TI-980 -- do you recall if photo > IMG_5542 is from the same rack as the TI? I'm curious what was behind that > door on the top and I can't wait until it gets here to find out :). > > I hope that most of this stuff will end up in the hands of people who > won't shred it for gold content, but... > > - Josh > Hey Josh, I'm pretty sure you're right about IMG_5542 being the TI. One nice thing about that outboard display unit is that you've got some great I/O to play with. Is someone picking the unit up for you? To Jason's question, I noticed one or two bidders put a low bid (a few cents) in on EVERY lot, so if it had a sticker, it probably sold. That said, there were lots of (computer related) manuals and paperwork strewn about and the contents of the cabinets will likely get tossed, so I'm sure that's fair game. Looked like all the hardware had been claimed, one way or another. -C From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Oct 18 07:57:16 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:57:16 -0500 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great photos! I'm curious as to how long ago this equipment was in operation. The photos here and on the auction site almost looked like someone just got up and walked away, at least from the desks and office supplies, etc. that I saw. On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > For those curious about the equipment that sold last week, I put together > an album from my brief stop on Saturday. Let me know if you have trouble > viewing it. > https://goo.gl/photos/yb83SJSj67gS96n39 > > On closer inspection it appears the documentation for that GP-4, as well > as some of the other computers, sold to different parties (the value being > in the shelving and cabinets). > > I'm still losing sleep over that GP-4. From all appearances it was a > turn-key setup (in theory). Unfortunately, the auction site immediately > removes closed lots from their webpage so no idea what it sold for, or if > it went to a scrapper. I suspect it was billed as 'cabinets of aviation > equipment'. Being 3 hours away I can't exactly run over there and pin a > note on it. > > Some further digging on the net revealed a photo in the Motorola Annual > Report 1965 featuring the machine touting Moto's new ECL logic. Apparently > it was designed for aviation simulation but included facilities for being a > general purpose machine. -C -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 18 08:39:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) Message-ID: <20161018133939.246ED18C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > Maaaaaybe there are three ribbon cables back there Sure looks like it, and running to a standard MASSBUS connector, to boot. (Not that I have any use for the latter - absolutely no MASSBUS cables at all. But one could just run flat cables from this, to one's RH11/RH70.) I don't see a second MASSBUS connector, wonder what they do about termination? Maybe it's onboard? So I guess one could only have one of these things per MASSBUS port? Not really a problem, of course! ;-) We _definitely_ need to put these things in 'production'. Noel From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Tue Oct 18 10:32:59 2016 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? Message-ID: OK, I have a fairly large collection of VAX 4000 and VAXStation 3000 systems which I have fun with and use with both OpenVMS and OpenBSD over the years.... But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used. Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are software installations, etc. etc. In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached disks or netbooted. Should I just throw these things out? Do any collectors consider them to be valuable? Since it's now 2016 and I think the last TK tapes were made in the 1990s, I'm getting the urge to toss them. Opinions? Comments? --------------- Thomas "PDP-11" Dzubin Vancouver, Calgary, or Saskatoon; CANADA From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Tue Oct 18 10:32:59 2016 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? Message-ID: OK, I have a fairly large collection of VAX 4000 and VAXStation 3000 systems which I have fun with and use with both OpenVMS and OpenBSD over the years.... But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used. Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are software installations, etc. etc. In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached disks or netbooted. Should I just throw these things out? Do any collectors consider them to be valuable? Since it's now 2016 and I think the last TK tapes were made in the 1990s, I'm getting the urge to toss them. Opinions? Comments? --------------- Thomas "PDP-11" Dzubin Vancouver, Calgary, or Saskatoon; CANADA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 10:33:59 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:33:59 -0400 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161018133939.246ED18C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161018133939.246ED18C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Birkel > > > Maaaaaybe there are three ribbon cables back there > > We _definitely_ need to put these things in 'production'. I would consider one for my VAX/11-750 since Unibus disk emulation solutions aren't plentiful (but I think I'd have to get a DR750 (L0014) first). -ethan From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 10:38:02 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:38:02 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 October 2016 at 16:32, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are > software installations, etc. etc. > Hi Thomas, Have you got an install media set for VAX Dibol 4.2? Someone here was looking for a copy a few weeks ago. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 11:05:22 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:05:22 -0700 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161018133939.246ED18C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161018133939.246ED18C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <13003bfa-5ac5-67aa-4a49-92ea15f10114@gmail.com> On 10/18/16 6:39 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Birkel > > > Maaaaaybe there are three ribbon cables back there > > Sure looks like it, and running to a standard MASSBUS connector, to boot. > (Not that I have any use for the latter - absolutely no MASSBUS cables at > all. But one could just run flat cables from this, to one's RH11/RH70.) > > I don't see a second MASSBUS connector, wonder what they do about > termination? Maybe it's onboard? So I guess one could only have one > of these things per MASSBUS port? Not really a problem, of course! ;-) I can shed a bit of light here. There are two components involved. On the emulation end, there is a PCI card with an FPGA that implements the interface logic; and there is software on a PC that deals with device logic and storage. Between the PC and the MASSBUS interface on the host machine, there is a driver/receiver board that adapts signal levels between MASSBUS and the FPGA. > > We _definitely_ need to put these things in 'production'. Agreed. - Josh > > Noel > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 18 11:27:45 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 17:27:45 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019801d2295c$8f093100$ad1b9300$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 18 October 2016 16:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? > > On 18 October 2016 at 16:32, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > > Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some > > are software installations, etc. etc. > > > > Hi Thomas, > > Have you got an install media set for VAX Dibol 4.2? Someone here was > looking for a copy a few weeks ago. > I realise it is a big task to ask you to do, but if you could inventory the tapes it would really help. Regards Rob From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Oct 18 13:26:06 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 7:21 PM >> From: Ian S. King >>> Does anyone know anything about the status of the plans to open-source >>> it? >> I've made some inquries, stay tuned.... > OK, thanks! >>> Can you briefly describe what it was? > I'm still curious about what it was: was it a stand-alone board with a > separate power supply, or did it plug into some sort of backplane? Did it > use something like SD cards for storage? And what was the MASSBUS > connection like: a set of 3 Berg headers into which one plugged the flat > cables, or was there some oddball connector that wound up connected to a > standard MASSBUS connector? There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM. The one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the museum years later. This was a breadboarded prototype which supported 4 emulated RP06 disks, represented by directories of track files, each representing 20 sectors of 128 36-bit words. These mimicked the physical layout of the data on disk, where each 18 bits of data has an associated parity bit; this was stored as 3 8-bit bytes (3rd byte being 2 data + overall parity). The MDE itself was made up of a Rabbit and 3 PICs; the driver/receiver portion of the board terminated the Massbus. Standard Massbus cables connected it to the 2065 running Tops-10. Data was transferred via FTP over a 100baseT crossover cable connected to a Slackware server; the Rabbit was able to keep up with 4 drives at this speed, but a 5th drive (MDE could in theory represent an entire 8-drive string) would cause data dropouts on all units. Various improvements were attempted on this (work with Unibus on a 2020, for example), but it was never quite stable enough. MDE 2.0 was created by a different engineer with lots of resources thrown at him. He replaced the Rabbit and PICs with a Mesa 5i22 Anything I/O card (includes a Xilinx Spartan-III FPGA) that plugs directly into the PCI bus in a server-class X86-64 box, and used a revision of a separate driver/receiver card designed for MDE 1.0 to connect to the Massbus, still via standard cables. An outside contractor wrote a control program for the PC side which runs under Windows 2008/2012 Server. MDE 2.0 supports SimH-format RP07 and RP06 disk drive images. There is also a variant for tape drive emulation called the MTE, which reads and writes to SimH-format tape files. We currently run the DECSYSTEM-2065 (public Tops-10 v7.04), DECsystem-1070 (public Tops-10 v6.03A), PDP-11/70 (public Unix v7), and DECSYSTEM-1095 (under development: WAITS operating system from Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) using MDEs. The two KL-10 systems also have an MTE apiece; we haven't needed tape service on the KI-10 or the 11/70 so far. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 18 13:51:09 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) Message-ID: <20161018185109.8306818C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM. Thanks for the bits... very interesting. > Data was transferred via FTP over a 100baseT crossover cable connected > to a Slackware server; the Rabbit was able to keep up with 4 drives at > this speed Were the bits actually stored on the Slackware server, or was it just used to put bits on the 'drive' to start with? If the latter, what were the actual bits stored on? (I know, not that relevant, since this is the prior rev, but I'm curious.) > a Mesa 5i22 Anything I/O card (includes a Xilinx Spartan-III FPGA) that > plugs directly into the PCI bus in a server-class X86-64 box, and used > a revision of a separate driver/receiver card designed for MDE 1.0 to > connect to the Massbus Let me make sure I understand this; was there some sort of cable or somehow a connection from the Mesa 5i22 directly to the driver/receiver card, which was purely 'level conversion', with the Mesa doing the 'protocol' on the MASSBUS? (I.e. they didn't communicate over the PCI bus?) > a control program for the PC side which runs under Windows 2008/2012 > Server. So the actual bits are stored on something (disk?) controlled by the PC? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 14:03:48 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 15:03:48 -0400 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: References: <20161018133939.246ED18C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would consider one for my VAX/11-750 since Unibus disk emulation > solutions aren't plentiful (but I think I'd have to get a DR750 > (L0014) first). Correction: RH750 (L0007). The DR750 is a CMI-bus "interprocessor interface". -ethan From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Tue Oct 18 14:55:54 2016 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 21:55:54 +0200 Subject: RK8E Plessey Clone and Data Break Error Message-ID: Hello all together, i restore a rk05 disk drive in combination with an Plessey RK8E clone controller. Now the drive itself is restored, and the connection cables are built. My problem is that the rk8e diskless controll test (dhrka) fails with an data break error. The diskless controlltest is running throug all register and also the databuffer test. But in the first data break routine it fails. Then i toggled in the Example program from the maintanence vol.III, Single Cycle Data Break Transfers (Write than Read). With this program the content of the SwitchRegister is written through the data buffer registers and read back to the memory. Afterwards it is compared to the original SR content. I found out that the routine is running if SR=7777. Deeper investigation results that the bits 0, 1, 4, 6 and 9 have to be one`s to run the routine. The other SR bits are switchable while running the program. Next thing i did is trying read data with futil. i could read data form the disk. But with many read errors. Because i do not know anything about the allignment between my diskpack and the drive, i formated the pack with the RK8E Formater (dhrkd). The write part of the format is running. In the disk checking part the formater fails. Anyway. Then i used futil and scanned the whole surface off the diskpack. On the whole disk are 5 bad blocks left. Now i am able to dump blocks from the disk. But it seems that no matter witch block i dump out, it is the same block all over the disk. Afterwards i tried to modifie some words in block 0. And this is working. When i write the modified block i see the modification also in every other block of the disk. Have anyone the lightning idea? On a Google search i found a post of Rick Bensene from 2014 on this list witch described a similiar problem. In this discussion where talked about an spike in the load signal of the current address register. I checked that and see that this was not my problem. Thanks in advance Marco Rauhut From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 15:05:47 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:05:47 -0400 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > OK, I have a fairly large collection of VAX 4000 and VAXStation 3000 > systems which I have fun with and use with both OpenVMS and OpenBSD > over the years.... > > But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic > meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used. > > Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are > software installations, etc. etc. > > In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used > my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached > disks or netbooted. > > Should I just throw these things out? Do any collectors consider them > to be valuable? Since it's now 2016 and I think the last TK tapes were > made in the 1990s, I'm getting the urge to toss them. > > Opinions? Comments? > > > Good question, there are those capstans that may not hold their shape, ruining the tapes. I have a box of RK05s, one has VMS 4.6 label, no idea if it works. But there it is. b From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 15:42:52 2016 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:42:52 -0600 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thomas, I could use a few TK50 tapes, especialy it it has install for VMS! I am currently looking for a Microvax II system :-) Thanks! --barrym On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 2:05 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > > > > OK, I have a fairly large collection of VAX 4000 and VAXStation 3000 > > systems which I have fun with and use with both OpenVMS and OpenBSD > > over the years.... > > > > But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic > > meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used. > > > > Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are > > software installations, etc. etc. > > > > In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used > > my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached > > disks or netbooted. > > > > Should I just throw these things out? Do any collectors consider them > > to be valuable? Since it's now 2016 and I think the last TK tapes were > > made in the 1990s, I'm getting the urge to toss them. > > > > Opinions? Comments? > > > > > > > Good question, there are those capstans that may not hold their shape, > ruining the tapes. I have a box of RK05s, one has VMS 4.6 label, no idea > if it works. But there it is. > b > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:23:34 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 20:23:34 -0500 Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Assuming the OP is an employee of the Christoval ISD.. Christoval Independent School District is a public school district based in the community of Christoval, Texas. Christoval ISD has two schools - Christoval High and Christoval Elementary. Address: 20065 3rd St, Christoval, TX 76935 Phone: (325) 896-2520 Christoval is in west-central Texas. Too far from me to be any help, at least in a local sense! On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 9:28 AM, dwight wrote: > Where are you at and what seems to be the problem? > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Phillips < > bill.phillips at christovalisd.org> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:38:34 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed > > I have a Comdyna GP-6 analog computer that I need repaired ASAP. Anyone > available to help me out? > > Bill Phillips > wcphillips at verizon.net > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 18 15:45:39 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:45:39 +0000 Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I've emailed Philip and hope to debug it by email. I have access to a Comdyna 6 here and can walk him through it. I'm in California. Remote trouble shooting it tough but usually easier when the person at the other end doesn't know part of what they are doing. If they know too much, they tend to try to interpret too much, rather than just give me the readings. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre . Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 6:23:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed Assuming the OP is an employee of the Christoval ISD.. Christoval Independent School District is a public school district based in the community of Christoval, Texas. Christoval ISD has two schools - Christoval High and Christoval Elementary. Address: 20065 3rd St, Christoval, TX 76935 Phone: (325) 896-2520 Christoval is in west-central Texas. Too far from me to be any help, at least in a local sense! On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 9:28 AM, dwight wrote: > Where are you at and what seems to be the problem? > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Phillips < > bill.phillips at christovalisd.org> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:38:34 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Repairs Needed > > I have a Comdyna GP-6 analog computer that I need repaired ASAP. Anyone > available to help me out? > > Bill Phillips > wcphillips at verizon.net > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Oct 18 19:18:44 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 17:18:44 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> If any of those tapes are relevant to my VAX-11/730, then they might interest me. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From djg at pdp8online.com Tue Oct 18 19:21:12 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:21:12 -0400 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161019002112.GA5896@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 02:32:31PM -0400, Mike Stein wrote: > No experience myself, but FWIW several Cromemco owners have used David's > unit successfully with Cromemco's non-standard whole-track-at-a-time > controller and have said good things about his willingness to work > with non-standard formats. > > (It's also cheaper, but apparently not available at the moment, > unfortunately). > More are on order so bare boards end of the month and assembled hopefully in a couple weeks more. From djg at pdp8online.com Tue Oct 18 19:27:26 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:27:26 -0400 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> References: <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20161019002726.GB5896@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 01:38:19PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up > reliably so that the 3174 boots. > I haven't had any recent reports of this problem. If you wish assistance with it let me know. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:44:11 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:44:11 -0700 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: References: <20161002180342.E8F6618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2016 11:34 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Oct 2, 2016 11:03 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > > So there's another 11/35 up on eBait: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142135416325 > > > > Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. > > Buy it this time before it goes up to $6500 next time??? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/142146207101 For the curious who were following along, there was a taker for that 11/35 at $5000 today.... From ethan at 757.org Tue Oct 18 18:47:11 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 19:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Wonder if anyone got the actual simulators/cockpits? Fun toys but > won't fit in your average basement... There were bids on them, hopefully they go to home flight simulator nerds that will entertain us with videos on youtube of them running inside their houses! -- Ethan O'Toole From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Oct 18 18:55:14 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 23:55:14 +0000 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161018185109.8306818C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161018185109.8306818C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7FEB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:51 AM >> From: Rich Alderson >> Data was transferred via FTP over a 100baseT crossover cable connected >> to a Slackware server; the Rabbit was able to keep up with 4 drives at >> this speed > Were the bits actually stored on the Slackware server, or was it just used > to put bits on the 'drive' to start with? If the latter, what were the > actual bits stored on? (I know, not that relevant, since this is the prior > rev, but I'm curious.) Stored on a big honking JBOD array (set up as RAID 5 in Linux), since an RP06 stored as described is nigh on 900MB, and served up on that FTP link from Slackware. >> a Mesa 5i22 Anything I/O card (includes a Xilinx Spartan-III FPGA) that >> plugs directly into the PCI bus in a server-class X86-64 box, and used >> a revision of a separate driver/receiver card designed for MDE 1.0 to >> connect to the Massbus > Let me make sure I understand this; was there some sort of cable or > somehow a connection from the Mesa 5i22 directly to the driver/receiver > card, which was purely 'level conversion', with the Mesa doing the > 'protocol' on the MASSBUS? (I.e. they didn't communicate over the PCI > bus?) Yes, the d/r card is strictly level conversion, and the microcode in the Xilinx does all the Massbus protocol. >> a control program for the PC side which runs under Windows 2008/2012 >> Server. > So the actual bits are stored on something (disk?) controlled by the PC? Again using RAID 5 arrays on the PC servers, but PCI makes it a lot faster than Ethernet. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 18 19:31:09 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161019003109.86D7518C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I'm trying to do what VTServer was invented for - load Unix into an actual PDP-11, over its serial line, when one doesn't have machine-readable Unix on any mass storage for the machine. However, all the initial code that VTServer loads ('mkfs', etc) is V7-specific (V6 has a slightly different file system format) - and I want to install V6. Has anyone ever tweaked the programs which VTServer loads to do V6-format filesystems? I did a quick Google, but didn't see anything. No biggie if not, it won't be much work to adapt them all, but I figured I'd try to avoid re-inventing the wheel... Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 18 19:32:22 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 17:32:22 -0700 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: <20161019002726.GB5896@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <5C14CB85-36C1-4144-9020-17F75D6A89D4@shiresoft.com> <20161019002726.GB5896@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <1BC7058F-CB09-4E97-B024-52C2359B18D8@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 18, 2016, at 5:27 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 01:38:19PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >> Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up >> reliably so that the 3174 boots. >> > I haven't had any recent reports of this problem. If you wish assistance > with it let me know. I haven?t had any time to work with it. When I get a chance to get back to it and still have problems, I?ll let you know. TTFN - Guy From classiccmp at crash.com Tue Oct 18 19:37:38 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 17:37:38 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> On 10/18/2016 08:32, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic > meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used. > > In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used > my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached > disks or netbooted. Nothing wrong if that's what's worked for you. Glad to hear you've used and enjoyed the machines. > Should I just throw these things out? Do any collectors consider them > to be valuable? Since it's now 2016 and I think the last TK tapes were > made in the 1990s, I'm getting the urge to toss them. > > Opinions? Comments? I think it would be a shame to just thrown them out, though ultimately it's your call. I don't know if anybody considers them "valuable," if you mean "can I make some sweet cash selling them on eBay?" Which doesn't mean you couldn't sell them on eBay, I just wouldn't expect much from it. I think they're useful to folks who have drives that can use them, and they aren't nearly as fragile as QIC or helical scan drives (4mm, 8mm) of a similar age. If you're amenable, perhaps somebody within BC might be interested in them and willing to pick them up? I would, if I were close to one of the cities you listed... --S. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 18 19:42:36 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 20:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/35 on eBait Message-ID: <20161019004236.EC11E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick >> Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. > there was a taker for that 11/35 at $5000 today.... Smack me with a wet halibut. They must not have seen the original listing? I can't come up with any other explanation why someone would pass up a chance to buy it for $3.5K, and pay $1.5 more for the priviledge... Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 18 19:46:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 17:46:21 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> Message-ID: <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> On 10/18/16 5:37 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > I think they're useful to folks who have drives that can use them, and > they aren't nearly as fragile as QIC or helical scan drives (4mm, 8mm) > of a similar age. > The drives, maybe, but the tape sheds like nuts. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 19:48:27 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 19:48:27 -0500 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Don't store ur tapes in a damp basement will help with sticky shed syndrom... Keep em dry a food dehydrator helps... On Oct 18, 2016 7:46 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: On 10/18/16 5:37 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > I think they're useful to folks who have drives that can use them, and > they aren't nearly as fragile as QIC or helical scan drives (4mm, 8mm) > of a similar age. > The drives, maybe, but the tape sheds like nuts. From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Oct 18 19:50:19 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 19:50:19 -0500 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: I posted a link to it on a cockpit builder forum I visit. I don't do that any more, otherwise I might have a 747 cockpit in my garage right now! The prices were so low (at least when I checked), that I hoped someone would grab them and build a nice sim. On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 6:47 PM, wrote: > Wonder if anyone got the actual simulators/cockpits? Fun toys but >> won't fit in your average basement... >> > > There were bids on them, hopefully they go to home flight simulator nerds > that will entertain us with videos on youtube of them running inside their > houses! > > > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From isking at uw.edu Tue Oct 18 20:41:01 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 18:41:01 -0700 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <20161019003109.86D7518C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161019003109.86D7518C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I'm trying to do what VTServer was invented for - load Unix into an > actual > PDP-11, over its serial line, when one doesn't have machine-readable Unix > on > any mass storage for the machine. > > However, all the initial code that VTServer loads ('mkfs', etc) is > V7-specific > (V6 has a slightly different file system format) - and I want to install > V6. > > Has anyone ever tweaked the programs which VTServer loads to do V6-format > filesystems? I did a quick Google, but didn't see anything. > > No biggie if not, it won't be much work to adapt them all, but I figured > I'd > try to avoid re-inventing the wheel... > > Noel > I did this once upon a time and, while I've slept since then, I'll try to dredge up some memories. This was putting 6th Edition on a PDP-11/34, which still runs except for the RK05 I need to fix One Of These Days. ISTR that one can generate a 'tape' config file with whatever components you want/need. That was true for tools, too - I didthis with v6, so I know there are v6-specific tools somewhere, perhaps on some machine I still have (and I think I know which one). I recall finding documentation for it, too, and I think I even know where it is. I'm hoping it might have a URL in the header/footer, which might still be extant - if not, I can scan it. I think it's somewhere in the TUHS site, and not completely obvious so you have to hunt a bit. Cheers -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 18 21:56:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161019025622.8414618C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "Ian S. King" > ISTR that one can generate a 'tape' config file with whatever components > you want/need. Right, I saw that, but I need the V6 components... > I know there are v6-specific tools somewhere ... I think it's somewhere > in the TUHS site, and not completely obvious so you have to hunt a bit. Any hints you could provide would be most gratefully received. I looked in the source tree, and doing a search for "mkfs" only turned up the normal V6 mkfs. (Note that for the V7 one, the source for the standalone and Unix versions is one file, which has #ifdefs. That seems to be the one that's in the VTServer tree.) I had a pretty extensive walk through the archive 'back when' I first found out about TUHS, and I don't think I saw V6 versions (I would likely have grabbed them, if I had); I did find (and grab) VTServer, along with a bunch of other stuff. I just took another quick skim, couldn't find them. I would have guessed that they didn't exist, since that whole method of putting Unix on a machine didn't exist until V7, so it wouldn't have been written 'back in the day'. Noel From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Oct 19 00:13:19 2016 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:13:19 +1000 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161019051319.GA22415@minnie.tuhs.org> Hi all, an early version of VTServer is still at: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/ I think some others took it and extended; Fred van Kempen springs to mind. To load V6, you need to build a virtual tape which replicates the V6 tape. Hopefully this is easy to do. However, the problem is that both "boot" and "vtboot.pdp" contain the client-side code to talk to the server, and it seems that I didn't supply the source code for this. I'll go home and dig through my old stuff and see what I can find. Cheers, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Oct 19 00:17:29 2016 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:17:29 +1000 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161019051729.GA23010@minnie.tuhs.org> Hah, the file http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/v7_standalone.tar.gz has the source code for the standalone tools including boot and vtboot.pdp. So, given a working V7 environment, you should be able to rebuild these and possibly make them work in a V6 environment. Alternatively, if you have a working V6 environment (e.g. a simulator), you could bring in the vtclient.c code and integrate it into the V6 boot binary. Cheers, Warren From isking at uw.edu Wed Oct 19 00:18:16 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:18:16 -0700 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <20161019051319.GA22415@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20161019051319.GA22415@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hi all, an early version of VTServer is still at: > http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/ > > I think some others took it and extended; Fred van Kempen springs to > mind. > > To load V6, you need to build a virtual tape which replicates the > V6 tape. Hopefully this is easy to do. > > However, the problem is that both "boot" and "vtboot.pdp" contain the > client-side code to talk to the server, and it seems that I didn't > supply the source code for this. > > I'll go home and dig through my old stuff and see what I can find. > > Cheers, Warren > My plan too, Warren, but I haven't quite made it 'home' yet. Writing a paper for a workshop next month.... :-) I know I made it work and booted V6 on my 11/34. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 19 01:44:40 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 08:44:40 +0200 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > > There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM. The > one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created > when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the > museum years later. > Ah, thanks for clarifying :) Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average? /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 19 01:44:40 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 08:44:40 +0200 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > > There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM. The > one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created > when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the > museum years later. > Ah, thanks for clarifying :) Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average? /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 19 02:00:21 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:00:21 +0200 Subject: FS (cost of shipping): AS/400 8-port twinax concentrator/adapter cables In-Reply-To: <003c01d2295d$8c004150$a400c3f0$@chinalake.com> References: <003c01d2295d$8c004150$a400c3f0$@chinalake.com> Message-ID: <20161019070021.GT26355@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:34:50PM -0400, J wrote: > I have two IBM 21F5093 AS/400 8-port twinax to DB25 adapters with clip > mounts. Maybe! I've been on the lookout for a 72X5645 which is a 4-port twinax break out box. I supposedly need it for my AS/400 9406-170. (I have the pig-tail and terminal). I'm fairly new to this, do you know if the 21F5093 performs the same function as the 72X5645 and if the connector will go on my 170? Thanks in advance, Pontus. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 02:08:37 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 02:08:37 -0500 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: That should be in the site prep documents, or the installing documentation. On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > > > > There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM. The > > one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created > > when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the > > museum years later. > > > > Ah, thanks for clarifying :) > > Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average? > > /P > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 19 02:24:43 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:24:43 +0200 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20161019072443.GU26355@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 02:08:37AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > That should be in the site prep documents, or the installing documentation. Certainly, I think I've even looked it up. But I was curious if LCM has measured their specific configuration. /P From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Oct 19 02:46:26 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 08:46:26 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >From a preservation perspective the best option would be to list the tape labels. I have a friend with an extensive backup collection not yet on bitsavers who could identify if anything I'd unique. You might find there are only a couple not yet archived. Thanks Mark On 19 Oct 2016 01:48, "Adrian Stoness" wrote: > Don't store ur tapes in a damp basement will help with sticky shed > syndrom... Keep em dry a food dehydrator helps... > > On Oct 18, 2016 7:46 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > > > On 10/18/16 5:37 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > > > I think they're useful to folks who have drives that can use them, and > > they aren't nearly as fragile as QIC or helical scan drives (4mm, 8mm) > > of a similar age. > > > > The drives, maybe, but the tape sheds like nuts. > From mspproductions at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 10:26:37 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:26:37 -0500 Subject: FS (cost of shipping): AS/400 8-port twinax concentrator/adapter cables In-Reply-To: <003c01d2295d$8c004150$a400c3f0$@chinalake.com> References: <003c01d2295d$8c004150$a400c3f0$@chinalake.com> Message-ID: Hello, Is the AS-400 stuff still avalable?I would be interested. Thank you On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:34 AM, J wrote: > I have two IBM 21F5093 AS/400 8-port twinax to DB25 adapters with clip > mounts. > > Looks like the coil is about 14-16 feet of cable. > > Pics on request. > > Free for the cost of shipping (01888 metro-west Boston,MA , about 3 lbs > each) > > Need the space, gotta go. > > > > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG From james at attfield.co.uk Wed Oct 19 11:17:28 2016 From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:17:28 +0100 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? Message-ID: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> > From: "Mike Stein" > Subject: Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Any chance you still have a copy of that CP/M port buried somewhere? > We're sort of collecting the various Cromemco ports and emulators. > Sorry Mike, I didn't think so but went through my diskettes anyway and no go - all CDOS. I do believe that there was a Cromemco CP/M in the Don Maslim archives and another in the classicmp Dave Dunfield archives here http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/system.htm. If all else fails, I have found a CROMCPM.TD0 file in my archives which is Teledisk format and is 607Kb but I don't have a functional Teledisk at the moment so can't tell what it represents. I'm not sure of the source but would be happy to forward it to someone with a functional Teledisk, or Dave Dunfield's converter from TD0 to his IMD ImageDisk format. James From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:48:18 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 00:48:18 +0200 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I read several posts about Unibus disk interfaces and emulation. One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. The real storage could be based on SD card, so very easy to be moved to a PC for imaging and data transfer. Probably a low level emulation would be quite easy, while a more complex solution (MSCP) could be more difficult. The board itself wouldn't be cheap at all, because PCB would be big, and because FPGA aren't cheap either. Probably it would be anyway cheaper than an MSCP-SCSI, and it would be far more flexible. From what I understand, there could be a great demand of a such interface here around? Andrea From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:07:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:07:58 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OH yah Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 19, 2016 6:48 PM, "shadoooo" wrote: > Hello, > I read several posts about Unibus disk interfaces and emulation. > One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, > probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, > to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. > The real storage could be based on SD card, so very easy to be moved > to a PC for imaging and data transfer. > Probably a low level emulation would be quite easy, while a more complex > solution (MSCP) could be more difficult. > The board itself wouldn't be cheap at all, because PCB would be big, > and because FPGA aren't cheap either. > Probably it would be anyway cheaper than an MSCP-SCSI, and it would be far > more > flexible. > > From what I understand, there could be a great demand of a such interface > here around? > > Andrea > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 19 21:15:39 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:15:39 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-10-19 6:48 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > I read several posts about Unibus disk interfaces and emulation. > One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, > probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, > to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. > The real storage could be based on SD card, so very easy to be moved > to a PC for imaging and data transfer. > Probably a low level emulation would be quite easy, while a more complex > solution (MSCP) could be more difficult. > The board itself wouldn't be cheap at all, because PCB would be big, > and because FPGA aren't cheap either. > Probably it would be anyway cheaper than an MSCP-SCSI, and it would be > far more > flexible. > > From what I understand, there could be a great demand of a such > interface here around? Been thinking about this for more than 10 years :-( Isn't Noel working on something related? Btw, MSCP isn't really as complex as its reputation... While I'm not an expert, the hard parts of this project seem to be the boring bits -- the mechanical interface, the drivers/transceivers, and all that. Once that's taken care of, the software/fpga is the fun bit. Imho, etc. --Toby > > Andrea > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 22:35:37 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 23:35:37 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > >> From what I understand, there could be a great demand of a such >> interface here around? >> > > Been thinking about this for more than 10 years :-( > > Isn't Noel working on something related? > > Btw, MSCP isn't really as complex as its reputation... While I'm not an > expert, the hard parts of this project seem to be the boring bits -- the > mechanical interface, the drivers/transceivers, and all that. Once that's > taken care of, the software/fpga is the fun bit. Imho, etc. > > --Toby > > > >> a starting point might be simH, carving out the drive/storage component from there and building some sort of stand-alone simH drive using a Raspberry Pi or something. That's what comes to mind if it were me making a drive for a UNIBUS system. A card to interface with simH as a real drive would, not just a serial port. b From u.tagge at gmx.de Thu Oct 20 06:14:09 2016 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:14:09 +0200 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> Hi, I search some time for TK50/TK70 media for my MVII, and 3600 so I'm Interested. By now I have the need for the following tapes, if you have them. >>>>biggest need>>> - MVII DIAG MAINT TK50 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - MVII DIAG CUST TK50 - VMS V5.5-1 BIN TK50 - VMX XYZ BIN TK50 xx/nn - VMS LIC KEY BIN TK50 - MICROVMS xyz BIN TK50 - DEC TCP/IP SER VMS xyz TK50 And any other MVII or Microvax 3600 TK70 related Tape ;-). I know, that there is only a 50% chance, that they are still readable, but with view onto my QIC and other old media, it looks like I have some luck, in using old tape media. Many Greetings Ulrich From shatle at nfldinet.com Thu Oct 20 09:04:10 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 07:04:10 -0700 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction Message-ID: <20161020070410.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.7971992f0c.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Photos from the NWA Auction From: ethan at 757.org Date: Tue, October 18, 2016 6:47 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Wonder if anyone got the actual simulators/cockpits? Fun toys but > won't fit in your average basement... There were bids on them, hopefully they go to home flight simulator nerds that will entertain us with videos on youtube of them running inside their houses! -- I was at the facility briefly to help out another lister with prepping his lot for shipment. The GP4 is being dismantled for scrap. About half the racks are already empty. With a little bit of cash beer money and some wrench work, the panel you see in IMG_5535 is now in the backseat of my car. It will likely be all gone by EOD on Friday. From wmachacek at q.com Thu Oct 20 13:18:12 2016 From: wmachacek at q.com (wmachacek) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 12:18:12 -0600 Subject: Stanford Computers Message-ID: <002e01d22afe$51d180f0$f57482d0$@q.com> Does anyone on this list have any information on Stanford Computers? I have 2 of them that I saved from being recycled many years ago. I have finally gotten around to looking at them more closely. I have a model ?640? and a model ?XT-10?. The 640 has 2 ? 5 ?? floppy drives plus a Conner CP-344, 42MB HD (the HD may have been a later add-on to the original configuration). The XT-10 has 1 ? 5 ?? floppy drive and a NEC D5186, 25MB HD. I could not see a name on the MB in the 640, but the name ?80 Data? was on the XT-10 MB. I believe these to be from the mid to late ?80s time frame. They both have the 9 DB pin video connectors. The XT-10 has an EGA Graphics card, I could not tell what kind of card is in the 640. I am being very reluctant to start pulling cards on a machine this old for fear of breaking something. The ribbon cable seemed somewhat brittle on the 640. Can ribbon cables break due to age? If anyone has any information on these systems, I would appreciate hearing from you. I believe this company was in the bay area somewhere. With the name Stanford Computer, that seems very likely. Thanks for any information you can give me. I am in Colo. Springs. Bill Machacek From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 04:39:04 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:39:04 +1300 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM. The >> one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created >> when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the >> museum years later. >> > > Ah, thanks for clarifying :) > > Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average? > > /P Bye some enormous coincidence I was just looking through some DEC pdp-10 brochures I have. DEC advertised the 2020 as drawing no more power that a hairdryer; the quoted figure was 1400w as I recall. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 19 08:09:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161019130944.6A93718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Warren Toomey wkt at tuhs.org > To load V6, you need to build a virtual tape which replicates the V6 > tape. Err, there's the problem. The V6 boot tape consists of 3 'dd' images of RK05 V6 file systems (one each root, source, and doc), with a 'boot block' on the tape which can copy them to RK05 packs; there is no standalone 'mkfs', etc. Now, if I were willing to wait for the transfer of the entire 4K blocks, I could use that approach, but... my only working mass storage device (currently - more on the way, at some point) is an RX02 - much smaller. So I _can't_ go that way, my only choice is to replicate the V7-type process (stand-alone 'mkfs', etc), for V6. Although I suppose I could use an emulator (I have been using Ersatz-11 to run V6 for quite a while now) to produce a RX02-sized file system, with just the stuff it needs to boot ('init', 'sh', etc), and use VTServer to transfer that over. And I'd probably have to tweak the client-side code to write raw images to disk (not sure if it already knows how to do that). > the problem is that both "boot" and "vtboot.pdp" contain the > client-side code to talk to the server, and it seems that I didn't > supply the source code for this. > ... > Hah, the file .. v7_standalone.tar.gz has the source code for the > standalone tools Yup, found that some years back when I first found VTServer. > Alternatively, if you have a working V6 environment (e.g. a simulator), > you could bring in the vtclient.c code and integrate it into the V6 > boot binary. The only V6 boot mechanisms are 1-block programs that go into block 0 of device 0 and which boot Unix directly from that file-system (type a file name, and it loads that file and starts it). So there is no second-stage boot program to integrate the VT client into (although obviously I could port the second-stage bootstrap to V6). > From: Ian S. King > I know I made it work and booted V6 on my 11/34. I'll start with getting VTServer to run under V6 (my only Unix, don't have anything later :-), so if you turn up whatever you used to boot V6, it would probably still be useful. Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:41:54 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:41:54 -0400 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04803619-CA7D-44EA-866C-16B431EB8405@gmail.com> If you have not gotten the HP 98034 ROM image yet, I can try to dump mine when I'm back from travel next week. I suspect you want the "revised" version, which is the interface that works with the HP 9895. I have both versions. Craig, I'd be interested in your 9895 ROM dump and reverse engineering info too. Marc > On Oct 18, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Craig Ruff wrote: > > >> On Oct 18, 2016, at 11:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >> does anyone of you happen to have the images of the firmware ROM of >> HP98034 module and/or of the HP9895 disk drive, please? > > I?ve sent F.Ulivi the contents of the single ROM version from my 9895A, along with some preliminary reverse engineering work on the contents that I?ve done in conjunction with Eric Smith. From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 19 09:46:20 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:46:20 -0400 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:09:44 -0400.) <20161019130944.6A93718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161019130944.6A93718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161019144620.5EC8CA58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > I know I made it work and booted V6 on my 11/34. > I'll start with getting VTServer to run under V6 (my only Unix, don't > have anything later :-), so if you turn up whatever you used to boot > V6, it would probably still be useful. The sources for the V6 versions of the tmrk et al programs seem to be here: http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/source/mdec De From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 19 10:49:29 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) Message-ID: <20161019154929.B06E118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > Yes, the d/r card is strictly level conversion, and the microcode in > the Xilinx does all the Massbus protocol. So if you don't mind continuing to indulge my curiousity (thanks for all the indulgence so far :-), is the D/R card a daughtercard that mounts on the Mesa (my guess)? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 19 10:54:01 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161019155401.09EB918C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dennis Boone > The sources for the V6 versions of the tmrk et al programs seem to be > here: Yes, I have those, thanks; those are the 1-block programs I mentioned to Warren: >> The only V6 boot mechanisms are 1-block programs that go into block 0 >> of device 0 and which boot Unix directly from that file-system Well, to be technical, also there are the programs to copy the disk images from tape to disk - mcopy.s does that - etc. In case anyone looks at mcopy.s and wonders how R5 (which contains a pointer to the console print/input routines) gets set up, mboot.s, which will have run previously (to load the appropriate disk-controller-specific version of mcopy off the tape) does that. One can't actually boot V6 Unix directly from a V6 distribution tape, all one can do is copy the disk images from the tape to the disk; one then boots from the disk. (Although now that I look, there is tpboot.s, which claims to boot from a file on a 'tp' format tape. But I don't think V6 was ever distributed in that form - and in any case, it would still need a disk with a Unix file system, with appropriate files - init, sh, etc - already on it, to be able to boot Unix that way.) Noel From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 11:12:07 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:12:07 -0500 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > Great photos! I'm curious as to how long ago this equipment was in > > operation. The photos here and on the auction site almost looked like > > someone just got up and walked away, at least from the desks and office > > supplies, etc. that I saw. > > Perhaps more recently than one would think. It's not like there were > newer systems they could have used to keep their simulators running > (tho I did see some PCs in the room that may have been performing the > tasks of the older machines?) > > I would have loved to have been there at the clean-out. A nice > example of a proper old datacenter, preserved. > > Wonder if anyone got the actual simulators/cockpits? Fun toys but > won't fit in your average basement... > The auction website is a real piece of work, all traces to completed lots disappeared within hours, but I'm pretty sure I caught the final bid on most of the simulators and I didn't see anything that went for over $7k.. and those prices included the massive hydraulic pumps and supporting equipment. According to this article, it sounds like the facility was closed in 2012. http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/07/remnants-of-northwest-airlines-pilot-training-center-up-for-grabs/ Whether or not all the computers were still in use at that time is tough to say, but I was surprised at how clean and orderly most of the equipment was that was left. Has anyone been in to claim their prize(s)? Did anyone happen to catch the final bid on the GP-4? From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 11:54:27 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:54:27 +0200 Subject: Xerox Alto restoration, part 10 Message-ID: It boots, and with a borrowed mouse, GUI apps work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMp5EAq-Elo -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:11:52 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:11:52 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto restoration, part 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Saw the latest episode within hrs of it being posted :D then started exploring the other videos that guys got some cool toys wi I've had people coming to me asking if I had seen these videos yet here in Winnipeg that I would.least of expected to know about this project pritty cool ;) tdk on IRC On Oct 19, 2016 11:54 AM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > It boots, and with a borrowed mouse, GUI apps work > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMp5EAq-Elo > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven > Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 19 12:23:51 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:23:51 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5807AC27.1010306@ntlworld.com> On 18/10/16 16:32, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > > But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic > meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used. > > Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are > software installations, etc. etc. > > In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used > my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached > disks or netbooted. > I don't use TK50 tapes very often, but when I do, it's either to boot a VAX from cold (and install VMS) or to make a standalone backup. As for the value of the tapes, I've no idea about monetary value, but - in my view - they are part of the culture associated with the machines. I probably wouldn't use TK50 to install software as I already have it on CD and can set up an infoserver on the home network if needed, but back in the day there were plenty of machines which had no easy way to talk to a CD-ROM. When I worked in DEC that wasn't an issue, again because there were infoservers around. When I was a customer, tapes were the only viable option for a few of the machines (and for one it had to be 9-track tapes). I expect that you'll get a few offers to take the carts off your hands. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 19 12:24:26 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:24:26 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5807AC4A.8070300@ntlworld.com> On 18/10/16 16:38, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi Thomas, Have you got an install media set for VAX Dibol 4.2? > Someone here was looking for a copy a few weeks ago. Wasn't it ALL-IN-1? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 19 12:25:52 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:25:52 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> On 19/10/16 01:18, Mark J. Blair wrote: > If any of those tapes are relevant to my VAX-11/730, then they might interest me. > I know that there was a Unibus TK50 interface but I would have thought either TU58 or 9-track would have been a more likely software delivery mechanism for a VAX-11/730 back in the day. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 19 12:29:04 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:29:04 +0100 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> On 19/10/16 08:46, Mark Wickens wrote: > >From a preservation perspective the best option would be to list the tape > labels. I have a friend with an extensive backup collection not yet on > bitsavers who could identify if anything I'd unique. You might find there > are only a couple not yet archived. > > Thanks Mark > I looked under /bits/DEC but I don't see a lot . Is there a stash I'm not seeing? I suppose I should get around to archiving my TK50s. Is there a standard way of doing this and what metadata should one record? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:45:34 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:45:34 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have the following 12 TK50 tape cartridges with original DEC labels on them: AQ-FP13C-BN MICROVMS V4.4 FULL BIN TK50 (2 copies) AQ-FY80B-BN MICROVMS V4.4 BIN TK50 MANDATORY UPDATE (2 copies) AQ-FP15C-BN MICROVMS V4.4 NET END/N TK50 AQ-JP22F-BE VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 1/2 AQ-LC99C-BE VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 2/2 AQ-NJ58B-BE VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 WARRANTY MANDATORY UPDATE AQ-LX08H-BE VMS V5.4-1 BIN TK50 AW-FT37D-BN MICROVMS/WS V3.1 BIN TK50 AQ-FP58A-BN MICROVMS LIC KEY TK50 1-8 AQ-FP86C-BN VAX FORTRAN V4.4 BIN TK50 FORT044 FORT Are there already images of these tapes archived somewhere available on the net? I wouldn't mind having images of these tapes but don't really want to try to read them myself, if they are still currently readable. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 19 12:51:58 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 13:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox Alto restoration, part 10 Message-ID: <20161019175159.4324F18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > It boots, and with a borrowed mouse, GUI apps work There was a new blog post which I don't think was mentioned here yet: http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day-10-new.html but it doesn't cover the borrowed mouse; does cover getting the CPU 100% working, though. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 19 12:52:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:52:55 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/16 10:29 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 19/10/16 08:46, Mark Wickens wrote: >> >From a preservation perspective the best option would be to list the tape >> labels. I have a friend with an extensive backup collection not yet on >> bitsavers who could identify if anything I'd unique. You might find there >> are only a couple not yet archived. >> >> Thanks Mark >> > > I looked under /bits/DEC but I don't see a lot . Is there a stash I'm not seeing? > I have been hesitant to put much VMS software up since it was (is) still a supported product. I don't know if the situation has changed for VAX VMS. There are other sites that have put tapes up, though. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Oct 19 12:58:03 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 10:58:03 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <046A4937-D4A4-4028-97A3-6AF7A8AE3006@nf6x.net> > On Oct 19, 2016, at 10:25 , Antonio Carlini wrote: > > On 19/10/16 01:18, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> If any of those tapes are relevant to my VAX-11/730, then they might interest me. >> > I know that there was a Unibus TK50 interface but I would have thought either > TU58 or 9-track would have been a more likely software delivery mechanism > for a VAX-11/730 back in the day. I would much rather use either emulated TU58 or real 9-track for installation. I think I would need to boot from TU58 in any case. But I don't have any 9-track installation media, and I've had no luck yet getting real TU58 tapes working. I would certainly be interested in getting my hands on probably-good TU58 and 9-track installation media relevant to my 11/730. I'm only expressing interest in the TK50 media (which I've also had poor luck with) because I haven't tripped over better options yet. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Oct 19 13:05:06 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:05:06 +0000 Subject: 2020 Power consumption Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC9431@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Mike Ross Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 2:39 AM > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average? > Bye some enormous coincidence I was just looking through some DEC > pdp-10 brochures I have. > DEC advertised the 2020 as drawing no more power that a hairdryer; the > quoted figure was 1400w as I recall. Umm, are you sure about that? That was how we advertised the Toad-1 System in the 1990s, but the Mighty Mite power supply in the 2020 draws a lot more than that. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Oct 19 13:22:00 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:22:00 +0000 Subject: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks) In-Reply-To: <20161019154929.B06E118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161019154929.B06E118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC9480@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 8:49 AM >> From: Rich Alderson >> Yes, the d/r card is strictly level conversion, and the microcode in >> the Xilinx does all the Massbus protocol. > So if you don't mind continuing to indulge my curiousity (thanks for all > the indulgence so far :-), is the D/R card a daughtercard that mounts on > the Mesa (my guess)? Actually, due to the board real estate required for all those transceiver chips, we couldn't make it all fit on a card that fit inside a PC. There is a separate box with the Massbus connector on one side and ribbon cables going to the server on the other. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 13:41:19 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:41:19 -0600 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In the US, the 2020 was sold with a NEMA 5-20P plug, so 120V at less than 20A, but likely more than 15A for a maximum configuration. Of course, that's only for the actual 2020 box, and does not include disk and tape drives, terminals, printers, card readers or punches, etc. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Oct 19 15:02:27 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 16:02:27 -0400 Subject: VCF East: March 31-April 2, 2017 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only five and a half months until VCF East XII. :) March 31-April 2, InfoAge Science Center, Wall, New Jersey. http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 19 15:44:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)] In-Reply-To: References: <20161018022058.E65F618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC7CA3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20161019064439.GS26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <9D3FE202-BEDB-4A20-9A26-071FF4EFB619@comcast.net> > On Oct 19, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > In the US, the 2020 was sold with a NEMA 5-20P plug, so 120V at less than > 20A, Less than 16, in fact. NEC requires branch circuits to be loaded to at most 80% of the circuit breaker setting, so 16 amps on a "20 amp" circuit. paul From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 15:52:12 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:52:12 +1300 Subject: 2020 Power consumption In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC9431@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDC9431@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 7:05 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Mike Ross > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 2:39 AM > >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >>> Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average? > >> Bye some enormous coincidence I was just looking through some DEC >> pdp-10 brochures I have. > >> DEC advertised the 2020 as drawing no more power that a hairdryer; the >> quoted figure was 1400w as I recall. > > Umm, are you sure about that? That was how we advertised the Toad-1 System > in the 1990s, but the Mighty Mite power supply in the 2020 draws a lot more > than that. Remarkably the same text as in the DEC sales brochure I have is available online! "Operating in a cabinet five feet high, two and a half feet wide and two feet deep, and using about as much electricity (1,400 watts) as a hair drier held up by John Leng, a Digital vice president, the basic model of the Decsystem 2020 will sell for $150,000 when shipments begin in July." http://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/01/archives/technology-more-computer-for-less-money-technology-computer.html Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 19 16:21:05 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> References: <795b4e5a-127c-012e-5be3-26478fd2dc47@crash.com> <6fa1cd16-8656-765b-17bd-41cf2201d47a@bitsavers.org> <5807AD60.2060408@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I've long since lost track of the OP for this thread, but I could use a few TK70 scratch tapes. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 19 18:46:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 19:46:43 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 19, 2016, at 6:48 PM, shadoooo wrote: > > Hello, > I read several posts about Unibus disk interfaces and emulation. > One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, > probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, > to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. > The real storage could be based on SD card, so very easy to be moved > to a PC for imaging and data transfer. > Probably a low level emulation would be quite easy, while a more complex > solution (MSCP) could be more difficult. > The board itself wouldn't be cheap at all, because PCB would be big, > and because FPGA aren't cheap either. > Probably it would be anyway cheaper than an MSCP-SCSI, and it would be far more > flexible. Actually, Unibus has very straightforward timing. It certainly should be a breeze with an FPGA, but the original designs (nicely spelled out in the back of the early Peripherals Handbooks, or later on in the Unibus Handbook) take just a handful of MSI ICs. Yes, a non-MSCP disk would be a good choice. I'd suggest the Massbus series, they are just about as simple as anything and that's where you find the largest capacities short of MSCP devices. And even an RP07 fits comfortably on a small SD card. Or 8 of them, for that matter. Apart from MSCP, avoid RL emulation also. SD is actually the hardest part, at least the initialization. If there's off the shelf IP that handles that state machine, the rest is simple. Alternatively, is CompactFlash still around? That's just an ATA interface, really easy. How small is the smallest possible Unibus DMA card? Quad, if I remember right, because of where the NPR/NPG wires live? paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 19:04:14 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 20:04:14 -0400 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 19/10/16 01:18, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> If any of those tapes are relevant to my VAX-11/730, then they might >> interest me. >> > I know that there was a Unibus TK50 interface TUK50 - M7547. Very rare (not many people really wanted to read or write TK50 tapes when they could so easily use 9-track from a Unibus machine). > ... but I would have thought > either TU58 or 9-track would have been a more likely software delivery > mechanism for a VAX-11/730 back in the day. Indeed (or RL02... that was a valid distribution medium choice, especially since most of the 11/730s had an RL02 on top not a magtape drive. -ethan From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 19:23:39 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:23:39 -0600 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 4:48 PM, shadoooo wrote: > The board itself wouldn't be cheap at all, because PCB would be big, > True. From a Chinese vendor such as PCBway, a DEC quad size double-sided PCB without ENIG (immersion) gold surface finish but without hard-gold edge fingers costs $15.10 each in quantity 10, and a hex side PCB costs $20.40 each. However, the ENIG gold is quite thin and won't withstand very many backplane insertions. The cheap PCB vendors don't offer hard gold edge fingers. Jon Elson pointed out that E-TekNet in Arizona does offer hard gold at better prices than some fab houses, but still a lot more than the cheap Chinese PCBs. I prefer NOT to use ENIG, as I find HASL tin-lead better for hand assembly, though the lead is a problem due to RoHS regulations in much of the world (but not in USA). I haven't tried HASL lead-free. > and because FPGA aren't cheap either. > Xilinx XC6SLX9-2TQG144C is probably big enough for such things, and only costs $16.52 in quantity 1 from Digi-Key. It's in a TQFP, so not *too* difficult to deal with. It has essentially 11,440 logic cells (5-LUT with FF)*, 32 block RAMs of 18 Kbits each, and 102 3.3V I/O pins. It's not 5V tolerant, but no modern parts are. 5V tolerance can be achieved in many cases by the use of series resistors, but I like using the TI SN74CBTD3861DGVR bus switch/voltage clamp, which can make 10 I/O pins 5V tolerant at a cost of $0.62 in quantity 1. The bus switch is advantageous over series resistors because it doesn't add much series resistance to pins that are being used as outputs, and it has a maximum propagation delay of 0.25ns. If you need more FPGA capability, the XC7A15T-1FTG256C has substantially more resources, and costs $25.69 in quantity 1. It's in a 256 ball BGA, so somewhat harder to deal with, and needs at least a four layer board, possibly even six layer. However, it has 20,800 logic cells (5-LUT with FF), 25 block RAMs of 36 Kbits each, and 170 3.3V I/O pins. If you need more resources than that, it turns out that the XC7A15T, XC7A35T, and XC7A50T are actually all the same die, just factor-programmed with a different device ID. The 35T and 50T have double and triple the logic cells and block RAMs of the 15T. The Vivado FPGA toolchain artificially limits the resource usage of the two smaller parts, but doesn't actually restrict which specific logic cells and block RAMs are used, which means that the 15T and 35T have silicon that passes the factory testing for ALL resources, not just 1/3 or 2/3 of them. It's been verified that one can change the device ID in the bitstream, disable bitstream CRC checking, and use the smaller part as a larger part. I don't like disabling the CRC, because it serves to protect the FPGA from damage if the bitstream has been corrupted, so I wrote a program that can both change the device ID and recompute the CRC. I don't yet have a board with a 15T or 35T to test with, but I'll release the program as open source once I do. Because going to a 4 layer or 6 layer board is quite expensive when the board size is large, e.g., DEC quad or hex size, I think it makes sense to put the FPGA, its configuration flash, voltage regulators, and the bus switches for 5V tolerance on a daughterboard. I've been working on such a design, with two 96-pin DIN connectors for connection to the main board, and at least 160 GPIOs available. The main board can then be just double-sided, and possibly even 100% through-hole, for people that don't want to hand-assemble boards with surface-mount components. The drawback is that it will occupy more than one backplane slot due to the height. There's still the problem that no current production bus interface ICs meet Unibus, Qbus, or Omnibus specifications. Surplus DS8641 chips are technically the best choice. With modern chips, it's necessary to use separate drivers and receivers, and still difficult to meet the full specs. Compromising the specs is possible but may make things unreliable in a large system (multiple backplanes with cables, and many other cards). Eric * Xilinx has some other confusing definition of a "logic cell" for marketing purposes, which is not the same as a LUT+FF. Oddly enough, their marketing logic cell count is actually lower than a sensible accounting, which is the opposite of how FPGAs used to be rated in exaggerated gate counts, which we derided as "marketing gates". The 6-series and 7-series actually have 6-LUTs with 2 FF each, but they can be used as two 5-LUTs with 1 FF each, which is how I count them for assessing the FPGA's logic capacity. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Oct 19 19:51:06 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 17:51:06 -0700 Subject: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto? In-Reply-To: References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> > On Oct 19, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> ... but I would have thought >> either TU58 or 9-track would have been a more likely software delivery >> mechanism for a VAX-11/730 back in the day. > > Indeed (or RL02... that was a valid distribution medium choice, > especially since most of the 11/730s had an RL02 on top not a magtape > drive. I?m especially interested in accumulating good RL02 packs. I?m even working on a project to add a USB interface to one of my RL02 drives for imaging and writing packs. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Oct 19 20:20:12 2016 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 11:20:12 +1000 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <20161019051729.GA23010@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20161019051729.GA23010@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20161020012012.GA20301@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I had a look at the docs on V6 Unix. This doc: http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/doc/start/start describes a way to install from tape, but it seems like it does a block copy of a tape image to the disk. Also, in http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/ there is a v6.tape.gz file. Unfortunately, I have no documentation on this. It could be raw blocks, or it could be a TAP file, who knows. Hopefully this is of some help. Cheers, Warren From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 19 20:20:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:20:44 -0700 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head Message-ID: I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from. On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is really stuck on. Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the obvious things (gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot of surface area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck. From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Oct 19 20:24:25 2016 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:24:25 -0700 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <272e05dd-0ddc-60be-17f1-868ab15734de@fritzm.org> On Oct 19, 2016 6:48 PM, "shadoooo" wrote > Hello, > I read several posts about Unibus disk interfaces and emulation. > One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, > probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, > to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. > The real storage could be based on SD card, so very easy to be moved > to a PC for imaging and data transfer. > Probably a low level emulation would be quite easy, while a more complex > solution (MSCP) could be more difficult. > The board itself wouldn't be cheap at all, because PCB would be big, > and because FPGA aren't cheap either. > Probably it would be anyway cheaper than an MSCP-SCSI, and it would be far > more > flexible. A good way to go on this might be just a small paddle card with Unibus drivers, level conversion, and some shift-register chains, which could then be interfaced easily to any number of off-the-shelf FPGA prototyping boards (the latter having the advantage of being quite cheap, with many integrated peripherals like ethernet, SD slots, USB serial, etc. and having tool chain support out of the box). I've seen a few projects started like this out in the wilds, but none seem to have made it past the debug stage. It would be super useful -- you could emulate all sorts of peripherals as well as memory, or you could configure it as a Unibus analyzer, or emulate a CPU to debug peripherals. --FritzM. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:25:53 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 23:25:53 -0200 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A good bang in the side with the heavy side of a screwdriver uses to work flawlessly ;) (sometimes 2 or 3 bangs :D ) 2016-10-19 23:20 GMT-02:00 Al Kossow : > I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from. > On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is > really stuck on. > Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the > obvious things > (gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot of > surface > area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck. > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:40:30 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:40:30 -0400 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2016 9:25 PM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > > A good bang in the side with the heavy side of a screwdriver uses to work > flawlessly ;) (sometimes 2 or 3 bangs :D ) > > > 2016-10-19 23:20 GMT-02:00 Al Kossow : > > > I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from. > > On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is > > really stuck on. > > Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the > > obvious things > > (gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot of > > surface > > area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck. > > > > > > Put in the oven, 150 degrees, 2 mins on a Side for 8 minutes total Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 19 21:08:13 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161020020813.9605318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Warren Toomey > This doc: .. describes a way to install from tape, but it seems like it > does a block copy of a tape image to the disk. Yup, that's the standard V6 install from tape. It uses the two programs I mentioned in the last message; first mboot (which produces the '=' prompt), and then mcopy (assembled with the appropriate disk and tape drivers), which is used to copy disk images to the disk. > Also .. there is a v6.tape.gz file. Unfortunately, I have no > documentation on this. It could be raw blocks, or it could be a TAP > file, who knows. I looked into this previously. The other three files: root.v6.tar.gz doc.v6.tar.gz usr.v6.tar.gz are just TAR dumps of the 3 disk images on the V6 distribution tape: the root (includes kernel source, and most of the binaries), usr (source for all commands), and documentation. The v6.tape seems to be an image of V6 distribution tape. Here are some notes I made a while back, when I looked at it: The first 100 512-byte tape blocks contain the tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image. .. The most recent timestamp on any file in /usr and /doc is July 19th 1975, as with Dennis' copy. However, the most recent file timestamp on root is October 11th, 1975 Block 0 on tape - mboot (tm tape booter) Block 1 on tape - hboot (ht tape booter) Block 2-xx - gubbish, apparently inodes, code, etc? Block 98 on tape - hpuboot Block 99 on tape - rpuboot Block 100 on tape - rkuboot HTH. Noel From pete at pski.net Wed Oct 19 22:50:39 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 23:50:39 -0400 Subject: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM In-Reply-To: References: <1f98b375-9b96-0fdf-ad2d-d375c0134f2d@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <19D31051-F8AE-41B0-ABBE-81A13C41D678@pski.net> > On Oct 17, 2016, at 12:18 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > Yes, I'm currently in the process of getting the DREM working with a Tandy 6000 and Xenix. I can format and I can do MFM reads but I am currently having an issue with CRC checks during writes which are failing for the Tandy's WD1010 controller. I think it's an easy fix so I'm in contact with the DREM team and hopefully it will be going well soon. I'll keep you updated. Overall, I think it's a pretty solid product and a great solution to the dwindling supply of working MFM drives. Plus, backups are super easy with the SD card support. And the detailed logging allowed me to easily pinpoint the issue with the CRC checks. After receiving an update to the firmware from the incredibly helpful DREM team I?ve been able to install XENIX on my Tandy 6000 with the DREM HD emulator! https://youtu.be/L12mL1IC11g From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 19 23:19:47 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 00:19:47 -0400 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:54:01 -0400.) <20161019155401.09EB918C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161019155401.09EB918C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161020041948.12E98A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Yes, I have those, thanks; those are the 1-block programs I mentioned > to Warren: > One can't actually boot V6 Unix directly from a V6 distribution tape, > all one can do is copy the disk images from the tape to the disk; one > then boots from the disk. (Although now that I look, there is > tpboot.s, which claims to boot from a file on a 'tp' format tape. But > I don't think V6 was ever distributed in that form - and in any case, > it would still need a disk with a Unix file system, with appropriate > files - init, sh, etc - already on it, to be able to boot Unix that > way.) Well yes, the discussion already seemed to have established that it would be necessary to convert vt.s from vtserver to work with the v6 mdec bits, and to use an emulator to do the rk install using the tape, then figure out how to reduce the setup to fit on the rx. De From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 20 01:38:39 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 08:38:39 +0200 Subject: RL02 packs available [Was: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?] In-Reply-To: <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 05:51:06PM -0700, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > I?m especially interested in accumulating good RL02 packs. I?m even > working on a project to add a USB interface to one of my RL02 drives > for imaging and writing packs. > I have more RL01 and RL02 packs than I need, some still in original packaging. If you are seriously interested I could muster up the energy to test them and put them in the mail. /P From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 19 21:33:40 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161020023340.EE1E918C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Here are some notes I made a while back, when I looked at it: > ... > Block 2-xx - gubbish, apparently inodes, code, etc? So I just realized something's incomplete here. There's an intermediate stage (loading 'xxyy', where 'xx' is "tm" or "ht", and 'yy' is "rk", "rp" or "hp"). Those must be in stored in that block "2-xx" area, but I'm not up for grokking the assembler ("tpboot.s") that loads them to see how it works (it takes a file-name, 'xxyy' as above, entered at the console). And I got the tape files slightly wrong: mcopy.s is indeed the tape copier program (assembled with either tm.s or ht.s, and one of rk.s, rp.s and hp.s), to produce the 'xxyy' files above. However, the first stage booter is "tpboot.s", not "mboot.s" (didn't look closely enough); again, assembled with either tm.s or ht.s - that produces the first-stage bootstrap that goes in blocks 0 and 1 of the tape. Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 20 01:51:11 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 08:51:11 +0200 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161020065110.GW26355@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:48:18AM +0200, shadoooo wrote: > > From what I understand, there could be a great demand of a such interface > here around? > I think so yes, not everyone is so lucky as to have massbus or SDI disks lying arround. Loose CPU boxes seems far more common. /P From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Oct 20 02:04:40 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 00:04:40 -0700 Subject: RL02 packs available [Was: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?] In-Reply-To: <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <895AF3BA-0B7E-41C6-B0A1-12187DF21D12@nf6x.net> > On Oct 19, 2016, at 11:38 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 05:51:06PM -0700, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> I?m especially interested in accumulating good RL02 packs. I?m even >> working on a project to add a USB interface to one of my RL02 drives >> for imaging and writing packs. >> > > I have more RL01 and RL02 packs than I need, some still in original > packaging. > > If you are seriously interested I could muster up the energy to test > them and put them in the mail. I have a small pile of packs, some of which look unused. I keep my eyes open for more, since I don?t know it I have more than I need yet. :) Do any of your extra RL02 packs have potentially interesting contents, such as software that might be useful for my VAX-11/730 or my future PDP-11/44 restoration? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 20 02:09:49 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:09:49 +0200 Subject: RL02 packs available [Was: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?] In-Reply-To: <895AF3BA-0B7E-41C6-B0A1-12187DF21D12@nf6x.net> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> <895AF3BA-0B7E-41C6-B0A1-12187DF21D12@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <20161020070949.GX26355@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:04:40AM -0700, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > I have a small pile of packs, some of which look unused. I keep my > eyes open for more, since I don?t know it I have more than I need yet. > :) > > Do any of your extra RL02 packs have potentially interesting contents, > such as software that might be useful for my VAX-11/730 or my future > PDP-11/44 restoration? My packs come from a PDP-11/34 system. So there are some XXDP and RT-11 packs. I look to image them before I ship them off. /P From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 20 04:05:31 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 02:05:31 -0700 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> I actually years ago unstuck drives by removing them, hooking them to cables long enough to allow me to have access to them external to the system with power, and just holding them in the air and giving them a sharp twist around the axis of the drive. That was enough to unstick most. I also had ready a drive on the systems to drain or recover data immediately prepped on the system in advance (Windows 95 and NT days). Never forced or heated them, may work as well. I thought the force if applied quickly would cause not only "stiction" to be be overcome from heads temporarily stuck to the drive, but it also gives a bit of a boost in case the poles on the motor were not working well enough to give a kick to start the spin, which is a different problem. The latter seemed to be the problem of at least a couple of drives, as they would start if you gave them a prod, but otherwise were either silent or humming (from the pole forces oscillating rather than causing successive action to spin the platters). thanks Jim On 10/19/2016 6:40 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 19, 2016 9:25 PM, "Alexandre Souza" > wrote: >> A good bang in the side with the heavy side of a screwdriver uses to work >> flawlessly ;) (sometimes 2 or 3 bangs :D ) >> >> >> 2016-10-19 23:20 GMT-02:00 Al Kossow : >> >>> I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from. >>> On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is >>> really stuck on. >>> Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the >>> obvious things >>> (gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot > of >>> surface >>> area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck. >>> >>> >>> > Put in the oven, 150 degrees, 2 mins on a > Side for 8 minutes total > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > > From lars at nocrew.org Thu Oct 20 07:23:10 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:23:10 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> (Ulrich Tagge's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:14:09 +0200") References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> Message-ID: <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Hello, I'm looking for old versions of Emacs. I want to preserve them for the future. By "old", I mean roughly released before 1990. Or before GNU Emacs 19.7. I'm interested in having the most complete set of GNU Emacs release there can be. Tarballs are great, but diffs are also good. These releases are missing so far: - 19.0-19.6; these were never released publicly. - 18.56, 18.50-18.42, and everything before 18.41. - All 17.x except 17.61 and 17.60. - All 16.x except 16.56. - Everything older, except 13.8. I also have a few versions of TECO EMACS (MIT/ITS/TOPS-20), Lisp Machine Zwei/Zmacs, Multics Emacs, and Gosling Emacs. And a pretty complete set of Lucid Emacs and XEmacs releases. Best From dab at froghouse.org Thu Oct 20 08:45:59 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:45:59 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/19/2016 06:48 PM, shadoooo wrote: > > One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, > probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, > to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. > The real storage could be based on SD card You mean, perhaps, something like this? http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html Noel and I started working on this project about a year ago. I've been away all summer, working in the wilds in Alaska, so the project stalled for the last six months. I'm home now and getting back into normal life so it's time to restart. Here's a quick status report on how far we got. Noel wire-wrapped two prototype boards with the bus drivers and level converters. We have those cabled to a ZTEX FPGA module for development. I was working on the Verilog in the FPGA. We got to the point where we had all the basic QBUS bus cycles working: device register reads and writes, bus grant, DMA reads and writes, and interrupt cycles. We hacked up a quick and dirty RK11 using just internal FPGA memory for the "disk" storage and wrote some C code to exercise all those QBUS operations. It seems solid. The short video of the indicator panel on that website above is running that exerciser program. Where we're sitting now is that the next step is to wire up an SD card and start writing the Verilog to access it. It's a little daunting though not as daunting as implementing the USB protocols in the FPGA. I'm hoping that doing the SD card will pave the way for more complex things like USB. Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 20 09:07:14 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 07:07:14 -0700 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> On 10/20/16 2:05 AM, jim stephens wrote: > I actually years ago unstuck drives by removing them, hooking them to cables long enough to allow me to have access to > them external to the system with power, and just holding them in the air and giving them a sharp twist around the axis > of the drive. That was enough to unstick most. I will probably just set this one aside for the day I have access to a spin stand and a pair of heads moved with D/As. The simple tricks work if the spindle bearing is gummy, or the head is slightly stuck. This one is bad enough you can see the flexure twist. It is going to have to be disassembled. It is out of a pair of Gould 68000 development systems that I got from Erik Klein. Very unusual boxes built out of Valid Logic 68K multibus boards, with their own SASI and serial interface cards and 3com ethernet, running Valid's 4.1BSD. So far, I've been able to recover most of the root file system disk. The usr disk is the one with the stuck head. I have one more pair of drives from the other unit, I'm hoping either they come up, or there are enough sectors that aren't bad that I can piece together the file system. I can see the header files, so at least I have some information on how you talk to their boards. David Gesswein has been a huge help through this whole effort. The Adaptec 4000 was set up for 18 sectors/trk, and he modified mfm_read to get that working with these drives. From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Oct 20 10:17:31 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 08:17:31 -0700 Subject: RL02 packs available [Was: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?] In-Reply-To: <20161020070949.GX26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> <895AF3BA-0B7E-41C6-B0A1-12187DF21D12@nf6x.net> <20161020070949.GX26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <17432CF0-7833-432D-B319-21AA9E370FC4@nf6x.net> > On Oct 20, 2016, at 00:09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > My packs come from a PDP-11/34 system. So there are some XXDP and RT-11 > packs. I look to image them before I ship them off. I have an XXDP 2.5 pack, but I don't think I have any with RT-11 on them. One or two RT-11 packs could be useful to help me get bootstrapped. No hurry, though. It'll still be quite a while before my PDP-11/44 project bubbles to the top. If anybody listening has RL02 packs with installation stuff suitable for my VAX-11/730, that would really interest me. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From hachti at hachti.de Thu Oct 20 10:19:00 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:19:00 +0200 Subject: 1966-68 Honeywell u-COMP DDP-516 Console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e9d737f-023d-34e8-efac-c1808ad03392@hachti.de> On 10/15/2016 03:00 AM, jim stephens wrote: > The two empty slots may be for connector cards for the cabling from the > panel into the system? Yes, they are for the cables. -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 philipp at hachtmann.com www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 20 11:23:24 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:23:24 -0700 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The two disks this morning went much better. I tried using a heat gun on the outside of the hda and VERY gently freed the heads and got the spindle to turn. Then I pulled the top board and coaxed the spindle motor back up to speed. The root disk read without errors, usr has a consistent 28. The same experiment didn't work on the usr disk from the first system though :-( At least now I have a good root image and probably usuable usr > On 10/20/16 2:05 AM, jim stephens wrote: >> I actually years ago unstuck drives by removing them, hooking them to cables long enough to allow me to have access to >> them external to the system with power, and just holding them in the air and giving them a sharp twist around the axis >> of the drive. That was enough to unstick most. > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 11:46:46 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 12:46:46 -0400 Subject: WD1793 FDC versions Message-ID: <08CE61DF1D32406CAE9FC30C7E136405@310e2> Anybody know what the differences are among the WD1793, WD1793A, WD1793B-02 etc., or where I could find this info? Thanks, mike From ethan at 757.org Thu Oct 20 13:59:07 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: > According to this article, it sounds like the facility was closed in 2012. > http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/07/remnants-of-northwest-airlines-pilot-training-center-up-for-grabs/ > Whether or not all the computers were still in use at that time is tough to > say, but I was surprised at how clean and orderly most of the equipment was > that was left. I would figure the data center rooms and stuff might of had other racks of more modern server equipment that might have been sold off separately or relocated to other sites. Didn't see holes in the floor for cabling but wouldn't be surprised. I didn't see video projection hardware on the auction and usually that is used to project the stuff outside the cockpits no? What was left is the interesting stuff :-) -- Ethan O'Toole From shatle at nfldinet.com Thu Oct 20 14:35:04 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 12:35:04 -0700 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction Message-ID: <20161020123504.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.5fd6442d91.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Photos from the NWA Auction From: ethan I would figure the data center rooms and stuff might of had other racks of more modern server equipment that might have been sold off separately or relocated to other sites. Didn't see holes in the floor for cabling but wouldn't be surprised. I didn't see video projection hardware on the auction and usually that is used to project the stuff outside the cockpits no? What was left is the interesting stuff :-) ------- There were a number of ex-NWA/Delta employees that were in the building during the inspection phase. Talking to them, the sentiment was that after the merger, Delta took "anything that was worth anything" and sent it down to their facilities in Atlanta. There were a number of simulator bays where the cockpits had been removed, and the attendant server rooms were fairly bare. I saw a bunch of Sun-3 "operator manuals" laying around, but no Suns. One of the guys said they had a bunch of "old" Sun gear at one time, but that all went south. The PDPs and GP4 were part of what was the oldest DC-9 sim in the country up until they walked away from it, so we were told. I agree - the "interesting" stuff was left behind, but maybe not all of it :-) Steve From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 11:42:20 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 12:42:20 -0400 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1E1C2C2523274F85A31968831F13F676@310e2> I've got several ST251-1s that spin up just fine, no funny noises, but then do a bunch of back-and-forth seeks and shut down again. It's the usual, "they worked fine the last time;" any ideas what the problem is and if there's anything that can be done? Presumably it's having trouble finding the sync track; weak signal? Any ideas? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head > The two disks this morning went much better. I tried using a heat gun on the outside of the hda and VERY > gently freed the heads and got the spindle to turn. Then I pulled the top board and coaxed the spindle motor > back up to speed. The root disk read without errors, usr has a consistent 28. > > The same experiment didn't work on the usr disk from the first system though :-( > > At least now I have a good root image and probably usuable usr > > > >> On 10/20/16 2:05 AM, jim stephens wrote: >>> I actually years ago unstuck drives by removing them, hooking them to cables long enough to allow me to have access to >>> them external to the system with power, and just holding them in the air and giving them a sharp twist around the axis >>> of the drive. That was enough to unstick most. >> > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:21:38 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 09:21:38 +1300 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 2:45 AM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 10/19/2016 06:48 PM, shadoooo wrote: >> >> One of my retrocomputing dream is to design an Unibus universal board, >> probably based on FPGA because of precise timing requirements, >> to emulate one or more disk/tape interfaces, and possibly something more. >> The real storage could be based on SD card > > You mean, perhaps, something like this? > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html Oh that blinkenlights panel is excellent! All emulators should have one! :-) I'm not really into Qbus much but would probably buy a production example anyway. I'd certainly fork out for several Unibus devices if you make them! One tip from someone with same issue in a parallel endeavor (IBM System/360 panel): they look much better and more authentic with 'warm white' LEDs. These are the ones I'm using: https://octopart.com/l5-n55n-fuv-sloanled-29855005 Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:14:55 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:14:55 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Actually, Unibus has very straightforward timing. It certainly should be a breeze with an FPGA, but the original designs (nicely spelled out in the back of the early Peripherals Handbooks, or later on in the Unibus Handbook) take just a handful of MSI ICs. Then there's the interminable wrestling with "what driver ICs to use". I have an abundance of the real thing (DC013 and NS8641, because I used to make a peripheral), but modern equivalents all fall short in one way or another. You _can_ get away with a variety of substitutions, but the question then becomes when those compromises sum up to bite you. > Yes, a non-MSCP disk would be a good choice. I'd suggest the Massbus series, they are just about as simple as anything and that's where you find the largest capacities short of MSCP devices. With widespread driver support (because who wants to write a wad of drivers for different operating systems and different _versions_ of operating systems - VMS4 vs VMS5 w/SMP anyone? Done that already!). The worst thing about rolling your own controller is needing to write all the drivers, thus the interest in something universal, like MSCP - the interface to the bus, the register model, is all set and somewhat clear. Implementation details are invisible to the bus or OS. OTOH, rolling your own MSCP device is hardly a starter project. > ... Apart from MSCP, avoid RL emulation also. While RL emulation is complex, one advantage is that the OS support for the RL is nearly ubiquitous. > How small is the smallest possible Unibus DMA card? Quad, if I remember right, because of where the NPR/NPG wires live? The RX211 (M8256) is a quad-height card that does DMA. There are various quad-height tape controllers that should too, IIRC. Mostly, DMA peripherals are hex height because they can be and there's plenty of silicon to fill a hex card, but that's about real estate not about reaching certain Unibus pins. -ethan From mspproductions at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:24:28 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:24:28 -0500 Subject: RL02 packs available [Was: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?] In-Reply-To: <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hello, I would be interested in a few RL-02 packs with DDXP or RT-11 on them. Any idea what you would want for them? Matt On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:38 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 05:51:06PM -0700, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > > I?m especially interested in accumulating good RL02 packs. I?m even > > working on a project to add a USB interface to one of my RL02 drives > > for imaging and writing packs. > > > > I have more RL01 and RL02 packs than I need, some still in original > packaging. > > If you are seriously interested I could muster up the energy to test > them and put them in the mail. > > /P > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions KD8AMG From jason at smbfc.net Thu Oct 20 15:25:21 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: <1E1C2C2523274F85A31968831F13F676@310e2> References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> <1E1C2C2523274F85A31968831F13F676@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > I've got several ST251-1s that spin up just fine, no funny noises, but then do a bunch of back-and-forth seeks and shut down again. > > It's the usual, "they worked fine the last time;" any ideas what the problem is and if there's anything that can be done? Presumably it's having trouble finding the sync track; weak signal? Any ideas? > > m I'm actually trying to bring an ST251-1 back to life right now. It worked, then was intermitently not recongnized by the controller after being powered on for a while, now not recognized at all. When you apply power it runs through whatever standard head-sweep routine (self-test?), but there seems to be a communication breakdown between the Drive electronics and controller board. Various sources on the interwebs suggest me that the small SMD tant caps by the power connector are a known issue on these drives and can lead to all sorts of flaky behavior. I've orderd a few from digikey, hopefully will have them by this weekend to attempt a repair. See my forum post here, where my shoot-in-the dark analsys is disagreed with: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54516-Caps-for-an-ST251-1: --Jason From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 20 15:27:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage Message-ID: <20161020202731.A406618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > I'd suggest the Massbus series, they are just about as simple as > anything and that's where you find the largest capacities short of MSCP > devices. If you want to exactly emulate only DEC controllers, yes. (Of course, such a project should do that, for binary compatability.) However, as I think I have mentioned before, I'm actually enamoured of taking a very simple controller like an RP11, which has lots of spare disk address bits, and defining an 'RP11-E' which maxes out the virtual drive size without changing _anything_ about the register format other than using unused bits in the cyclinder address register. That will produce disks with 2^28 blocks, or 2^36 bytes, or 64GB. That's most of a large SD card... :) Not too useful to those without the ability to tweak drivers, but... there's another issue with the older controllers, which is that they only support 18-bit addressing, and for use on QBUS machines, where one would really like to be able to do DMA to anywhere in the 22-bit space (for Unix, this would be for swapping, and raw I/O - buffered I/O would be fine with 18 bits). So maybe an updated version of those old, simple controllers would actually have some use. (I'd certainly want them for my Unix boxes.) > Apart from MSCP, avoid RL emulation also. Why avoid RL's? Not the greatest controller, I agree, but it is a 'lowest common denominator' drive for a certain era of gear. > From: Toby Thain > Isn't Noel working on something related? I think Dave B gave a pretty good update. In addition to what he mentioned, I'd like to mention the indicator panels (like the DEC ones for the RF11, RP11, etc). Dave has designed the new indicator PCB, and we have a couple of prototype PCB's in hand, stuffed and working. I think there's a video clip of it doing its thing on the Web page he pointed to. Our concept is that we'll be able to drive more than one of these panels, by connecting them together serially - that way a machine could have, say, both RK11 and RP11 indicator panels, driven from a single QSIC board. That will slow down the refresh rate a bit, but our numbers indicate it should still be acceptably fast. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 20 15:27:42 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:27:42 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <768FFE6E-D5A3-43A1-8F7E-4D9296A4F3F9@comcast.net> > On Oct 20, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Actually, Unibus has very straightforward timing. It certainly should be a breeze with an FPGA, but the original designs (nicely spelled out in the back of the early Peripherals Handbooks, or later on in the Unibus Handbook) take just a handful of MSI ICs. > > Then there's the interminable wrestling with "what driver ICs to use". > I have an abundance of the real thing (DC013 and NS8641, because I > used to make a peripheral), but modern equivalents all fall short in > one way or another. You _can_ get away with a variety of > substitutions, but the question then becomes when those compromises > sum up to bite you. I would treat this as an analog problem, putting some op amps and comparators to work. It doesn't seem to rise to the level where D/A devices are needed. :-) > >> Yes, a non-MSCP disk would be a good choice. I'd suggest the Massbus series, they are just about as simple as anything and that's where you find the largest capacities short of MSCP devices. > > With widespread driver support (because who wants to write a wad of > drivers for different operating systems and different _versions_ of > operating systems - VMS4 vs VMS5 w/SMP anyone? Done that already!). > > The worst thing about rolling your own controller is needing to write > all the drivers, thus the interest in something universal, like MSCP - > the interface to the bus, the register model, is all set and somewhat > clear. Implementation details are invisible to the bus or OS. OTOH, > rolling your own MSCP device is hardly a starter project. Right. I meant an existing non-MSCP non-RL device. Most other disks have extremely straightforward register command sets; RK05, RP06, the details differ but the general approach is very easy. Any non-DEC disk would be a problem. Writing drivers is a pain if it's even possible; for some operating systems like RSTS it flat out isn't supported. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 20 15:31:12 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:31:12 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <20161020202731.A406618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161020202731.A406618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57C088C2-3F7F-445D-90C9-AE324D997788@comcast.net> > On Oct 20, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> I'd suggest the Massbus series, they are just about as simple as >> anything and that's where you find the largest capacities short of MSCP >> devices. > > If you want to exactly emulate only DEC controllers, yes. (Of course, such a > project should do that, for binary compatability.) > > However, as I think I have mentioned before, I'm actually enamoured of taking > a very simple controller like an RP11, which has lots of spare disk address > bits, and defining an 'RP11-E' which maxes out the virtual drive size without > changing _anything_ about the register format other than using unused bits in > the cyclinder address register. That will produce disks with 2^28 blocks, or > 2^36 bytes, or 64GB. That's most of a large SD card... :) That's fine if your target is an OS for which you can write drivers. It wouldn't help RSTS users. > > Not too useful to those without the ability to tweak drivers, but... there's > another issue with the older controllers, which is that they only support > 18-bit addressing, and for use on QBUS machines, where one would really like > to be able to do DMA to anywhere in the 22-bit space (for Unix, this would be > for swapping, and raw I/O - buffered I/O would be fine with 18 bits). So maybe > an updated version of those old, simple controllers would actually have some > use. (I'd certainly want them for my Unix boxes.) Q22 disks existed on MSCP, of course. And RL02 also, if I remember right. > >> Apart from MSCP, avoid RL emulation also. > > Why avoid RL's? Not the greatest controller, I agree, but it is a 'lowest > common denominator' drive for a certain era of gear. Significantly uglier program interface, so more complex emulation compared to RK05 or RP06. Not nearly as hard as MSCP, of course. A possible answer for a lot of this is to do the actual emulation algorithms in software, in an embedded CPU inside the FPGA. For MSCP that's obvious, but it would work for the others as well I suspect. The main trick is to have the register side effects done right. That can get complicated, as the DMC-11 example illustrates. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:38:44 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:38:44 -0400 Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> <1E1C2C2523274F85A31968831F13F676@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, Mike Stein wrote: > > I've got several ST251-1s that spin up just fine, no funny noises, but >> then do a bunch of back-and-forth seeks and shut down again. >> >> It's the usual, "they worked fine the last time;" any ideas what the >> problem is and if there's anything that can be done? Presumably it's having >> trouble finding the sync track; weak signal? Any ideas? >> >> m >> > I'm actually trying to bring an ST251-1 back to life right now. It > worked, then was intermitently not recongnized by the controller after > being powered on for a while, now not recognized at all. When you apply > power it runs through whatever standard head-sweep routine (self-test?), > but there seems to be a communication breakdown between the Drive > electronics and controller board. > > Various sources on the interwebs suggest me that the small SMD tant caps > by the power connector are a known issue on these drives and can lead to > all sorts of flaky behavior. > > I've orderd a few from digikey, hopefully will have them by this weekend > to attempt a repair. > > See my forum post here, where my shoot-in-the dark analsys is disagreed > with: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54516-Caps-for-an-ST251-1: > > --Jason > Can you swap the controller board of the drive with another drive's? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:40:10 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:40:10 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <57C088C2-3F7F-445D-90C9-AE324D997788@comcast.net> References: <20161020202731.A406618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57C088C2-3F7F-445D-90C9-AE324D997788@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Q22 disks existed on MSCP, of course. And RL02 also, if I remember right. There is the 2 board RLV11, which is 18-bit, and the preferred 22-bit single-board RLV12. I have both. I started with a BA11-N box in 1986 and didn't mind one bit paying $100 for an RLV11 and taking up two slots (the RLV12 was still full price at the time). For any MicroVAX or a MicroPDP in a BA23, can't beat the RLV12. I have one in a bag waiting for me to have some time to build up an RL02 image slurping box (having recently repaired the line filter caps in a BA23). -ethan From jonelson126 at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:44:09 2016 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:44:09 -0500 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58092C99.1020602@pico-systems.com> On 10/19/2016 07:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I prefer NOT to use ENIG, as I find HASL tin-lead better for hand > assembly, though the lead is a problem due to RoHS regulations in much > of the world (but not in USA). I haven't tried HASL lead-free. I did **ONE** board with some kind of gold flash that a PCB house recommended. If the solder on the board didn't flow, it was a colossal disaster. You had to lift the pin, scrape the black crud down to bare copper and re-tin, then solder the lead back down. Since then, I have used pure tin HASL, and had little trouble. Jon From jason at smbfc.net Thu Oct 20 15:47:31 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head In-Reply-To: References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> <1E1C2C2523274F85A31968831F13F676@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, Mike Stein wrote: >> >> I've got several ST251-1s that spin up just fine, no funny noises, but >>> then do a bunch of back-and-forth seeks and shut down again. >>> >>> It's the usual, "they worked fine the last time;" any ideas what the >>> problem is and if there's anything that can be done? Presumably it's having >>> trouble finding the sync track; weak signal? Any ideas? >>> >>> m >>> >> I'm actually trying to bring an ST251-1 back to life right now. It >> worked, then was intermitently not recongnized by the controller after >> being powered on for a while, now not recognized at all. When you apply >> power it runs through whatever standard head-sweep routine (self-test?), >> but there seems to be a communication breakdown between the Drive >> electronics and controller board. >> >> Various sources on the interwebs suggest me that the small SMD tant caps >> by the power connector are a known issue on these drives and can lead to >> all sorts of flaky behavior. >> >> I've orderd a few from digikey, hopefully will have them by this weekend >> to attempt a repair. >> >> See my forum post here, where my shoot-in-the dark analsys is disagreed >> with: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54516-Caps-for-an-ST251-1: >> >> --Jason >> > > > Can you swap the controller board of the drive with another drive's? > I would if I had a spare ST251-1 hanging around. I've been tempted to order one from the flea-bay for just such an experiment. --Jason From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 20 15:50:59 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> According to this article, it sounds like the facility was closed in 2012. >> http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/07/remnants-of-northwest-airlines-pilot-training-center-up-for-grabs/ >> Whether or not all the computers were still in use at that time is tough to >> say, but I was surprised at how clean and orderly most of the equipment was >> that was left. > > I would figure the data center rooms and stuff might of had other racks of > more modern server equipment that might have been sold off separately or > relocated to other sites. Didn't see holes in the floor for cabling but > wouldn't be surprised. I didn't see video projection hardware on the auction > and usually that is used to project the stuff outside the cockpits no? > > What was left is the interesting stuff :-) > The computers you guys are frothing :) over were either driving the cockpit avionics or were driving the scene generators. I haven't seen pics of those simulators, but all of that era either use WAC (wide angle collimation) displays or cross-cockpit collimated displays like the one I built a few years ago. The screens (WAC) or projectors (CCC) are mounted directly to the simulator cabs - either on top or for the WACs, one on each window. By splitting up the computers from the sims, they've basically rendered the simulators useless scrap metal. Those simulators are backed by MANY file cabinets full of nothing but wiring diagrams, diagnostic processes, and software listings. I'm pretty sure all of that is either on it's way to being paper pulp or is in a landfill. Had those materials been saved, it _might_ have been possible to use the sims as-is with new computers. Now? Not a chance. Any collector would have to develop wiring diagrams from scratch before the could even begin any kind of restoration. It would be more cost effective to strip it to the frame and create new wiring harnesses from scratch. When I heard about the place going up for auction, I knew exactly what the outcome was going to be and I avoided the auction site completely. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From dab at froghouse.org Thu Oct 20 15:55:33 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:55:33 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40b1b1f1-e76b-a2f2-22a2-15df013bc7f1@froghouse.org> > Oh that blinkenlights panel is excellent! All emulators should have > one! :-) Yeah, isn't that fun? Once I got it running, I just sat and watched it for about fifteen minutes while it ran our disk exercising program. And then I noticed a bug. It apparently wasn't causing a problem but the address line 00 was lighting up each time it did a DMA. That didn't seem right. I looked through the Verilog and figured out what was going on. It probably wouldn't have caused a problem, maybe, but I got to fix it anyway. See? 'Dem blinkenlights are useful! > I'm not really into Qbus much but would probably buy a > production example anyway. I'd certainly fork out for several Unibus > devices if you make them! Our plan was to do a Unibus version of the same thing as a follow-on. It ought to be reasonably straightforward. > One tip from someone with same issue in a parallel endeavor (IBM > System/360 panel): they look much better and more authentic with 'warm > white' LEDs. These are the ones I'm using: > https://octopart.com/l5-n55n-fuv-sloanled-29855005 Yeah. You can see in this picture that the LEDs I picked have this yellow lens. I was hoping that would warm up the output but obviously it didn't. I looked through the list of 1206 and 0805 LEDs on DigiKey and didn't find any that were obviously what I wanted. I'll take suggestions from anyone. Or, I suppose, I could re-spin the board for through-hole LEDs. I've actually come to prefer surface-mount though and I'm hoping that one of these days I'll have my own pick and place machine (or I'll talk our soon to exist MakerSpace into getting one). http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indp.jpg From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 20 16:08:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:08:41 -0700 Subject: ST-251 [was Re: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head] In-Reply-To: References: <9cbf13e1-68a7-66dc-4f14-251bb1815d3b@jwsss.com> <794c4025-2cff-29b5-f6a6-14b242d14c5d@bitsavers.org> <1E1C2C2523274F85A31968831F13F676@310e2> Message-ID: <1ac2c226-249d-d87f-c515-3ced2a676598@bitsavers.org> On 10/20/16 1:25 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > I'm actually trying to bring an ST251-1 back to life right now. It worked, then was intermitently not recongnized by > the controller after being powered on for a while, now not recognized at all. When you apply power it runs through > whatever standard head-sweep routine (self-test?), but there seems to be a communication breakdown between the Drive > electronics and controller board. > Just did my usual sweep for schematics, and there is one up now http://www.dasarodesigns.com/schematics-and-resources/ There was a guy on ebay selling off individual sheets of reverse-engineered schematics, and he bought them all and put them on line! From dab at froghouse.org Thu Oct 20 16:21:59 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:21:59 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <768FFE6E-D5A3-43A1-8F7E-4D9296A4F3F9@comcast.net> References: <768FFE6E-D5A3-43A1-8F7E-4D9296A4F3F9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1a9bdae7-b2a0-2b9f-def3-88ce91010eb5@froghouse.org> On 10/20/2016 04:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I would treat this as an analog problem, putting some op amps and comparators to work. It doesn't seem to rise to the level where D/A devices are needed. :-) Clearly op amps and comparators could do the job, probably really nicely, but it seems like you'd end up with a rather large and expensive bus interface. I've wondered if this might be solvable with just a couple FETs. I'm thinking something like in this schematic. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/drivers-drivers.pdf The resistor to the base of the driver FET is to limit the slew rate (depending on the gate capacitance of the FET and maybe current limiting from the FPGA). An appropriate FET would have to be found, having the right threshold voltage to meet the receiver spec, also a small enough gate capacitance (one friend suggested that a series resistor on that side too might help with that). > Right. I meant an existing non-MSCP non-RL device. Most other disks have extremely straightforward register command sets; RK05, RP06, the details differ but the general approach is very easy. I'd planned to implement an RK first, followed by an RP. I didn't realize the RL was any more complex than those but I'll come asking questions of you if/when I get to that. > Any non-DEC disk would be a problem. Writing drivers is a pain if it's even possible; for some operating systems like RSTS it flat out isn't supported. Our plan was to first emulate the DEC disk controllers as closely as possible. Well, as closely as people tell us is necessary (like, do we have to insert delays to slow our "disks" down to match the real ones?). Then we'd have options for various extensions like 22-bit addresses and larger disk sizes for those people who were able to take advantage. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 20 16:32:07 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage Message-ID: <20161020213207.815AC18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > That's fine if your target is an OS for which you can write drivers. It > wouldn't help RSTS users. Right, they're stuck with exact clones of DEC controllers. (For Unix, tweaking the RP11 driver to handle the extended RP11 should take all of 12 minutes, tops! :-) > Q22 disks .. RL02 also, if I remember right. Oh, right, the RLV12 - forgot about that. Still, it would be nice to be able to run RK11's and RP11's in 22-bit mode! :-) Especially since there will be replicas of DEC's indicator panels for them, whereas an RL11 indicator panel would definitely be... an anachronism! ;-) > A possible answer for a lot of this is to do the actual emulation > algorithms in software, in an embedded CPU inside the FPGA. For MSCP > that's obvious, but it would work for the others as well I suspect. Dave B is a wizard with Verilog, so until it gets to the complexity level of MSCP we'd probably do it all in Verilog. > From: Jon Elson > I did **ONE** board with some kind of gold flash that a PCB house > recommended. ... it was a colossal disaster. You had to lift the pin > ... Since then, I have used pure tin HASL, and had little trouble. I think gold came into the discussion in the context of the contact fingers where the board plugs into the backplane. I've never seen a QBUS/UNIBUS board with tin fingers, although they were common on SIMM memory cards; no idea if tin would work for QBUS/UNIBUS - although now that I think about it, SIMM cards didn't slide into position, but kind of rotated, so maybe tin would work there. Noel From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Oct 20 16:46:17 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:46:17 -0600 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Any chance you can share your archive? I went looking for emacs 17 years ago and couldn't find it... I have several ancient CDROMs that have "internet archives" that have random versions of stuff on them, including emacs. I'll see if I can help you, but it will be emacs the 18 stuff only (maybe) Warner On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 6:23 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Hello, > > I'm looking for old versions of Emacs. I want to preserve them for the > future. By "old", I mean roughly released before 1990. Or before GNU > Emacs 19.7. > > I'm interested in having the most complete set of GNU Emacs release > there can be. Tarballs are great, but diffs are also good. These > releases are missing so far: > > - 19.0-19.6; these were never released publicly. > - 18.56, 18.50-18.42, and everything before 18.41. > - All 17.x except 17.61 and 17.60. > - All 16.x except 16.56. > - Everything older, except 13.8. > > I also have a few versions of TECO EMACS (MIT/ITS/TOPS-20), Lisp Machine > Zwei/Zmacs, Multics Emacs, and Gosling Emacs. And a pretty complete set > of Lucid Emacs and XEmacs releases. > > Best From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 20 16:51:14 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:51:14 -0500 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <20161020213207.815AC18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161020213207.815AC18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161020215114.GA32261@lonesome.com> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 05:32:07PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > For Unix, tweaking the RP11 driver to handle the extended RP11 should > take all of 12 minutes, tops! :-) well played. mcl From lars at nocrew.org Thu Oct 20 16:58:14 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 23:58:14 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: (Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:46:17 -0600") References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <86lgxipts9.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Warner Losh wrote: > Any chance you can share your archive? Oh, sure! For now, my most ethical repository is this: https://gitlab.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history But I'd be happy to mirror it on savannah. > I went looking for emacs 17 years ago and couldn't find it... Turns out 4.3BSD had a copy! > I have several ancient CDROMs that have "internet archives" that have > random versions of stuff on them, including emacs. I'll see if I can > help you, but it will be emacs the 18 stuff only (maybe) Those CDs sound exactly like where random versions of Emacs might turn up. 18 is fine. I'm especially irked that I haven't found 18.56. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 20 17:05:50 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:05:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: Unibus disk controller with modern storage Message-ID: <20161020220550.EC9F618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: David Bridgham > the right threshold voltage to meet the receiver spec The UNIBUS spec says the 4 crucial receiver parameters are input thresholds (high and low), and the input currents (high and low); the crucial transmitter parameters are the output low voltage (at 50 mA sink), and the output high leakage current. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:06:41 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:06:41 -0600 Subject: WD1793 FDC versions In-Reply-To: <08CE61DF1D32406CAE9FC30C7E136405@310e2> References: <08CE61DF1D32406CAE9FC30C7E136405@310e2> Message-ID: On Oct 20, 2016 10:47 AM, "Mike Stein" wrote: > Anybody know what the differences are among the WD1793, WD1793A, WD1793B-02 etc., or where I could find this info? A and B are the package material. -00, or no numeric suffix, is the early version, which will not compare the side value in the sector ID; -02 adds that ability. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 17:39:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:39:27 -0700 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <86lgxipts9.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86lgxipts9.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <0a6a4bc1-debd-54d6-ce9f-37a7c35f0786@sydex.com> On 10/20/2016 02:58 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Turns out 4.3BSD had a copy! It goes back before then--I can remember using it on early BSD around 1983. I can look around, if you're really curious. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:28:51 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:28:51 -0500 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> References: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No idea why this ended up in my spam folder, but replying just to get it one more look as-if it needed any help ;-) I'm surprised he doesn't ebay it to be honest. The last sentence, is that Rick asking or you Steven asking? On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 3:44 AM, steven stengel wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --------------------------------------------************* Contact Rick > below if interested. *************----------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --------------------------- > Name: Rick Bunker Contact: rick at bunker.us Location: Jenkintown, > PA > I have a computer collection that I have to sell. My wife and I have > separated, and the house is being sold, and I have no place to keep the > computers in my new apartment. > It is a pretty nice collection. Altair 8800, two IMSAI 8080's, an Apple ][ > (not ][+ or e or anything, the first one), a TRS-80 (the real first > revision, with no numeric keypad, with the original cassette drive, > monitor) an LSI monitor, a KIM-1, an original IBM PC (not an XT -- original > 2-floppys, original bios), an SwTPC 6800 box, with no innards. Similarly, a > Cromemco box with no innards. A Northstar Horizon. > > Some 8-inch drives, a bunch of S-100 boards, a luggable Kaypro portable, > an odd and an end or two. > > Lots of documentation. > Some old disks which may have readable software on them. I don't power > these things up, since they have power supplies that you can weld with, > with 40-year-old capacitors on them. > > Is there anybody in striking distance of Philadelphia suburbs, who would > consider buying and picking up this collection? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------------------------------- > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:34:43 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:34:43 -0700 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: References: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > No idea why this ended up in my spam folder, but replying just to get it > one more look as-if it needed any help ;-) That's a common gmail / yahoo thing. Ended up in my gmail spam folder too. "Why is this message in Spam? It has a from address in yahoo.com but has failed yahoo.com's required tests for authentication." Good thing I'm not in Philadelphia to blow some money on that collection... From isking at uw.edu Thu Oct 20 19:09:11 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:09:11 -0700 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: References: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > Good thing I'm not in Philadelphia to blow some money on that collection... > Word. I still want an IMSAI one of these days - but I wouldn't say no to an Altair if it dropped in my lap. But I just paid tuition... so I'll just play with my SWTPC 6800 for now. (Oh, I want a 6809, too.) -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 12:17:29 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:17:29 -0500 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: Does that archive on classiccmp.org have the infected images removed or cleaned? (Just curious as I remember this came up in a couple other forums that I think one or two of the images did have a virus). On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:17 AM, James Attfield wrote: > > From: "Mike Stein" > > Subject: Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > Any chance you still have a copy of that CP/M port buried somewhere? > > We're sort of collecting the various Cromemco ports and emulators. > > > Sorry Mike, I didn't think so but went through my diskettes anyway and no > go > - all CDOS. I do believe that there was a Cromemco CP/M in the Don Maslim > archives and another in the classicmp Dave Dunfield archives here > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/system.htm. If all else > fails, I > have found a CROMCPM.TD0 file in my archives which is Teledisk format and > is > 607Kb but I don't have a functional Teledisk at the moment so can't tell > what it represents. I'm not sure of the source but would be happy to > forward > it to someone with a functional Teledisk, or Dave Dunfield's converter from > TD0 to his IMD ImageDisk format. > > James > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 18:55:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, Sam O'nella wrote: > Does that archive on classiccmp.org have the infected images removed or > cleaned? (Just curious as I remember this came up in a couple other forums > that I think one or two of the images did have a virus). an 8080/Z80 compatible CP/M virus??? Or are you talking about a virus in some sort of MS-DOS image? Or an MS-DOS boot sector virus that wrote itself onto the "boot sector" of a non-MS-DOS format? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 19:17:51 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Maslin archive "virus"? (Was: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: > On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, Sam O'nella wrote: >> Does that archive on classiccmp.org have the infected images removed or >> cleaned? (Just curious as I remember this came up in a couple other forums >> that I think one or two of the images did have a virus). > > an 8080/Z80 compatible CP/M virus??? > Or are you talking about a virus in some sort of MS-DOS image? > Or an MS-DOS boot sector virus that wrote itself onto the "boot sector" of a > non-MS-DOS format? OK, answering my own query, I did a trivial amount of GOOGLEing, and found discussion that said that "Stoned" was found in TD0 images of PC-7000 MS-DOS 2.11. That is an EXTREMELY common MS-DOS boot sector virus. And was apparently in an image of an MS-DOS disk. However, some "anti-virus" software would not find it, since it might ONLY look in the boot sector for that virus, not within an archive image. Many other "anti-virus" software will get a lot of false positives, since it is only looking for a short "signature" - meaning that the staff in the anti-virus company extracts a short sequence from an infected disk, and then triggers whenever it encounters that particular sequence of bytes. Are they skilled enough to extract a significant "signature" that would only occur in that virus, or do they grab a random sequence within the infected disk? In any case, it is NOT likely to be a problem for any sort of Cromemco disk. And the discussion that GOOGLE turned up was specifically referring to MS-DOS 2.11 of PC-7000. Do NOT boot an 80x86 machine from one of those images. BTW, ANY versions of MS-DOS 2.11 or 3.31 should be saved! Even if it means manually "disinfecting". Those were the most customized versions of MS-DOS, and included 3.5" disk formats that were not PC-DOS compatible, special versions of MODE.COM (for non-80x25 screens, and laptop externals), etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 20:37:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:37:22 -0400 Subject: Maslin archive "virus"? (Was: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: Yes, I discovered the virus years ago. I thought I posted a cleaned version somewhere is not on my site somewhere. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 20, 2016 8:17 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >>> Does that archive on classiccmp.org have the infected images removed or >>> cleaned? (Just curious as I remember this came up in a couple other >>> forums >>> that I think one or two of the images did have a virus). >>> >> >> an 8080/Z80 compatible CP/M virus??? >> Or are you talking about a virus in some sort of MS-DOS image? >> Or an MS-DOS boot sector virus that wrote itself onto the "boot sector" >> of a non-MS-DOS format? >> > > OK, answering my own query, I did a trivial amount of GOOGLEing, and found > discussion that said that "Stoned" was found in TD0 images of PC-7000 > MS-DOS 2.11. > > That is an EXTREMELY common MS-DOS boot sector virus. And was apparently > in an image of an MS-DOS disk. However, some "anti-virus" software would > not find it, since it might ONLY look in the boot sector for that virus, > not within an archive image. > Many other "anti-virus" software will get a lot of false positives, since > it is only looking for a short "signature" - meaning that the staff in the > anti-virus company extracts a short sequence from an infected disk, and > then triggers whenever it encounters that particular sequence of bytes. > > Are they skilled enough to extract a significant "signature" that would > only occur in that virus, or do they grab a random sequence within the > infected disk? > > > In any case, it is NOT likely to be a problem for any sort of Cromemco > disk. And the discussion that GOOGLE turned up was specifically referring > to MS-DOS 2.11 of PC-7000. > Do NOT boot an 80x86 machine from one of those images. > BTW, ANY versions of MS-DOS 2.11 or 3.31 should be saved! Even if it > means manually "disinfecting". Those were the most customized versions of > MS-DOS, and included 3.5" disk formats that were not PC-DOS compatible, > special versions of MODE.COM (for non-80x25 screens, and laptop > externals), etc. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From lars at nocrew.org Thu Oct 20 23:17:17 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 06:17:17 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <0a6a4bc1-debd-54d6-ce9f-37a7c35f0786@sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:39:27 -0700") References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <86lgxipts9.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <0a6a4bc1-debd-54d6-ce9f-37a7c35f0786@sydex.com> Message-ID: <86a8dypc8i.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> Turns out 4.3BSD had a copy! > It goes back before then--I can remember using it on early BSD around > 1983. I can look around, if you're really curious. I am! I looked in 4.2BSD, but didn't find any Emacs. Emacs in 1983 would have been Gosling Emacs, I guess. RMS started working on GNU Emacs in September 1984. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 20 23:23:38 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:23:38 -0700 Subject: Photos from the NWA Auction In-Reply-To: References: <47FF1031-F81C-4D8E-AA14-5BB110CCA3CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/20/2016 11:59 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> According to this article, it sounds like the facility was closed in >> 2012. >> http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/07/remnants-of-northwest-airlines-pilot-training-center-up-for-grabs/ >> >> Whether or not all the computers were still in use at that time is >> tough to >> say, but I was surprised at how clean and orderly most of the >> equipment was >> that was left. > > I would figure the data center rooms and stuff might of had other > racks of more modern server equipment that might have been sold off > separately or relocated to other sites. Didn't see holes in the floor > for cabling but wouldn't be surprised. I didn't see video projection > hardware on the auction and usually that is used to project the stuff > outside the cockpits no? > There were video tubes and testing units for same in the auction. Also if you looked at the simulator cockpits, since most were gutted, some had large 25" or so tubes on their sides in the cockpits. the screens seemed to be set up so that they were front, not rear projected, and the projectors in the cockpits would be below the line of sight out of the cockpits, and may or may have not been there. There were cockpits, and most I looked at were stripped, and there were skids and lots of "avionics". One that was obvious was one for a DC-9 marked as such, and was a bunch of boxes with some amount of steam gauge instruments in the lot. The pages seem to still be up here: https://grafeauction.proxibid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=117590&gl=288#288 Unrefreshed page link from my browser, YMMV I don't know if the lots will show up here with th thanks Jim > What was left is the interesting stuff :-) > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 01:53:34 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 00:53:34 -0600 Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:51 PM, dwight wrote: > > From: spacewar at gmail.com > > > > Before I write my own, does anyone happen to have an assembler and/or > > a disassembler for the Intel 8089 I/O processor? > > You just may have to write your own. > Most don't even know what a 8089 is. > Wrote my own disassembler in Python. No assembler yet. https://github.com/brouhaha/i89 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 05:25:36 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 11:25:36 +0100 Subject: More DEC Alpha kit available, Newmarket UK Message-ID: Folks, We have another pedestal ES40 and rackmount ES45 to give away, as well as a half-height Compaq rack (20U?). Has to be collected from CB8 7NY before the end of next week otherwise they get recycled. Anyone fancy an early xmas present? :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mark.darvill at mac.com Fri Oct 21 05:28:56 2016 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 11:28:56 +0100 Subject: More DEC Alpha kit available, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D172957-543C-4A7B-9183-AC8591353533@mac.com> Hi Adrian, Can I put my hand up to claim the systems and rack to add to my collection? Thanks, Mark > On 21 Oct 2016, at 11:25, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Folks, > > We have another pedestal ES40 and rackmount ES45 to give away, as well as a > half-height Compaq rack (20U?). Has to be collected from CB8 7NY before the > end of next week otherwise they get recycled. > > Anyone fancy an early xmas present? :) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 21 06:11:40 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 07:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old versions of Emacs Message-ID: <20161021111140.7DFFD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > Emacs in 1983 would have been Gosling Emacs, I guess. Prior to that one, someone else at BBN (whose name I have forgotten, alas) did an Emacs intended for PDP-11's running Unix. It wasn't programmable (the way 'real' Emacs is), perhaps because there was not enough room for that on a PDP-11. I should have that on my MIT-CSR backup tapes, but if you're interested in a copy, it will be a while before I can excavate it; the tapes had some dropouts, which may have made the dump (a straight 'dd' of a 4.3 filesystem) unreadable. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Fri Oct 21 07:07:04 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 14:07:04 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <20161021111140.7DFFD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Fri, 21 Oct 2016 07:11:40 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20161021111140.7DFFD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86k2d1oqhj.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa writes: > > Emacs in 1983 would have been Gosling Emacs, I guess. > > Prior to that one, someone else at BBN (whose name I have forgotten, > alas) did an Emacs intended for PDP-11's running Unix. It wasn't > programmable (the way 'real' Emacs is), perhaps because there was not > enough room for that on a PDP-11. Sounds vaguely like MicroEMACS by Dave Conroy, but I suppose this is something else? Unix V6 you say? Was it BBN PEN by David Barach, David Taenzer, and Robert Wells? > I should have that on my MIT-CSR backup tapes, but if you're > interested in a copy, it will be a while before I can excavate it Yes, I am! I don't think I can take on every single variation of Emacs, but a version this early is interesting. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 21 07:33:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old versions of Emacs Message-ID: <20161021123317.23CCC18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff >> someone else at BBN (whose name I have forgotten, alas) > Sounds vaguely like MicroEMACS by Dave Conroy, but I suppose this is > something else? Unix V6 you say? Was it BBN PEN by David Barach, David > Taenzer, and Robert Wells? None of those names rang a bell. I just read the entire backup tape (in file form) into an editor, and searched for "Emacs", and I found some things which indicate the version I'm thinking of was written by Warren Montgomery, of Bell Laboratories (that's what I get for relying on memory, sigh). It was apparently written in the 1980 to early-1981 timeframe. Googling 'Emacs Warren Montgomery' turns up some interesting early things, including this: http://org.ntnu.no/emacs/implementations.html https://www.finseth.com/emacs.html Perhaps you already have this content, though? > Yes, I am! I don't think I can take on every single variation of Emacs, > but a version this early is interesting. OK, I will keep this in mind if/when I ever manage to read the dump. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Fri Oct 21 07:53:11 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 14:53:11 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <20161021123317.23CCC18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's message of "Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:33:17 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20161021123317.23CCC18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86a8dxooco.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > I found some things which indicate the version I'm thinking of was > written by Warren Montgomery, of Bell Laboratories I found this reference, which makes your copy very interesting indeed: CCA EMACS is Zimmermans EMACS which is an extension of Warren Montgomery's EMACS (the EMACS available from AT&T). > https://www.finseth.com/emacs.html > > Perhaps you already have this content, though? Yes, I'm in touch with Craig Finseth. > OK, I will keep this in mind if/when I ever manage to read the dump. Thank you! From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Oct 21 07:53:52 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 13:53:52 +0100 Subject: More DEC Alpha kit available, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <5D172957-543C-4A7B-9183-AC8591353533@mac.com> References: <5D172957-543C-4A7B-9183-AC8591353533@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi Adrian, I would also be interested, should Mark be unable to collect them for any reason. Regards, -Tom On 21 October 2016 at 11:28, Mark Darvill wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > Can I put my hand up to claim the systems and rack to add to my collection? > > Thanks, Mark > > > On 21 Oct 2016, at 11:25, Adrian Graham > wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > We have another pedestal ES40 and rackmount ES45 to give away, as well > as a > > half-height Compaq rack (20U?). Has to be collected from CB8 7NY before > the > > end of next week otherwise they get recycled. > > > > Anyone fancy an early xmas present? :) > > > > -- > > adrian/witchy > > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 09:09:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 07:09:23 -0700 Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is 8089 support in MAME, if you want to try to simulate something with an integrated debugger On 10/20/16 11:53 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:51 PM, dwight wrote: > >>> From: spacewar at gmail.com >>> >>> Before I write my own, does anyone happen to have an assembler and/or >>> a disassembler for the Intel 8089 I/O processor? >> >> You just may have to write your own. >> Most don't even know what a 8089 is. >> > > Wrote my own disassembler in Python. No assembler yet. > > https://github.com/brouhaha/i89 > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 09:37:46 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:37:46 +0200 Subject: Burroughs B5000 emulator Message-ID: A friend of mine is working on an emulator for this Burroughs Large Systems beast. There is an existing one -- https://github.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500 But it's web-based and in Javascript. Mark wants one that can be run as a proper local binary, under Linux. I believe he's using part of this emulator but trying to port it to either C, FreePascal or a mixture of both. I have suggested to him that it might be easier to work under an existing mini/mainframe emulator, such as SimH or maybe even MESS/MAME, but he is highly resistant to this idea, for reasons I do not really understand. I'm interested in opinions: do folk think that it would help, or not? Also, anyone who might have any info that would aid him and are interested, I can put you in touch. He claims the system was influential in the design of the original Intel 8088/8086, which is news to me. Comments? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 10:29:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:29:03 -0700 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <86a8dxooco.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <20161021123317.23CCC18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <86a8dxooco.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Did anyone mention MINCE--a micro version of Emacs? I recall a few friends using it back in the day... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 12:16:39 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:16:39 -0700 Subject: HP 7945 disk format Message-ID: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> for anyone wanting to try David's MFM emulator in an HP MFM 7945 disk box, here is the format, determined from reading a Vertex V170 drive from one --sectors 32,0 --heads 7 --cylinders 987 --header_crc 0xffff,0x1021,16,0 --data_crc 0xffffffff,0x140a0445,32,5 --format WD_1006 --sector_length 256 The 7945 is notoriously flaky because of the Vertex drives. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Oct 21 12:24:46 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:24:46 -0500 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> Do you have any of the ?GNU? emacs versions that were derived from Unipress/Gosling emacs, prior to the clean-room rewrite of the Gosmacs code? (Were those ever widely distributed?) ? Chris From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 12:32:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:32:15 -0700 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <34f793c0-4989-6d4a-6451-e71b8b4548dd@bitsavers.org> the 7941 used a V130 so for that substitute --heads 3 for --heads 7 On 10/21/16 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > for anyone wanting to try David's MFM emulator in an HP MFM 7945 disk box, here is the > format, determined from reading a Vertex V170 drive from one > > --sectors 32,0 --heads 7 --cylinders 987 --header_crc 0xffff,0x1021,16,0 --data_crc 0xffffffff,0x140a0445,32,5 --format > WD_1006 --sector_length 256 > > The 7945 is notoriously flaky because of the Vertex drives. > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Oct 21 12:49:44 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 18:49:44 +0100 Subject: More DEC Alpha kit available, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <5D172957-543C-4A7B-9183-AC8591353533@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, 3 minutes, that was impressive :) When can you head over to pick things up? Office hours are 9-5:30 every day, obviously you'd need a flatbed truck or van for everything. Cheers Adrian On 21/10/2016 11:28, "Mark Darvill" wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > Can I put my hand up to claim the systems and rack to add to my collection? > > Thanks, Mark > >> On 21 Oct 2016, at 11:25, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> We have another pedestal ES40 and rackmount ES45 to give away, as well as a >> half-height Compaq rack (20U?). Has to be collected from CB8 7NY before the >> end of next week otherwise they get recycled. >> >> Anyone fancy an early xmas present? :) >> >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From isking at uw.edu Fri Oct 21 13:02:06 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 11:02:06 -0700 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <20161021111140.7DFFD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161021111140.7DFFD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Lars Brinkhoff > > > Emacs in 1983 would have been Gosling Emacs, I guess. > > Prior to that one, someone else at BBN (whose name I have forgotten, alas) > did an Emacs intended for PDP-11's running Unix. It wasn't programmable > (the > way 'real' Emacs is), perhaps because there was not enough room for that > on a > PDP-11. > > I should have that on my MIT-CSR backup tapes, but if you're interested in > a > copy, it will be a while before I can excavate it; the tapes had some > dropouts, which may have made the dump (a straight 'dd' of a 4.3 > filesystem) > unreadable. > > Noel > I would love to have an Emacs I could run on my Pro-380. Then I can do some real work with it. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 21 13:41:26 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 14:41:26 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <20161020220550.EC9F618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161020220550.EC9F618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0B5B939A-0522-40AC-B9C2-A99BB33879E1@comcast.net> > On Oct 20, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: David Bridgham > >> the right threshold voltage to meet the receiver spec > > The UNIBUS spec says the 4 crucial receiver parameters are input thresholds > (high and low), and the input currents (high and low); the crucial > transmitter parameters are the output low voltage (at 50 mA sink), and > the output high leakage current. Where did you find those specs? I see a Unibus Spec on Bitsavers, but it doesn't appear to mention the electrical specs. paul From lars at nocrew.org Fri Oct 21 13:48:45 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 20:48:45 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> (Chris Hanson's message of "Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:24:46 -0500") References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Chris Hanson wrote: > Do you have any of the ?GNU? emacs versions that were derived from > Unipress/Gosling emacs, prior to the clean-room rewrite of the Gosmacs > code? (Were those ever widely distributed?) I seem to have stumbled upon a GNU Emacs 13.8. I'll post this src/display.c snippet as evidence: /-------------\ / \ / \ / \ | XXXX XXXX | | XXXX XXXX | | XXX XXX | \ X / --\ XXX /-- | | XXX | | | | | | | I I I I I I I | | I I I I I I | \ / -- -- \-------/ XXX XXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXX XXX ************** * BEWARE!! * ************** All ye who enter here: Most of the code in this module is twisted beyond belief! Tread carefully. If you think you understand it, You Don't, So Look Again. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Oct 21 13:50:39 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 11:50:39 -0700 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <0B5B939A-0522-40AC-B9C2-A99BB33879E1@comcast.net> References: <20161020220550.EC9F618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0B5B939A-0522-40AC-B9C2-A99BB33879E1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <532BB774-8A94-4991-9F3E-BFE0DC099372@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 21, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 20, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> From: David Bridgham >> >>> the right threshold voltage to meet the receiver spec >> >> The UNIBUS spec says the 4 crucial receiver parameters are input thresholds >> (high and low), and the input currents (high and low); the crucial >> transmitter parameters are the output low voltage (at 50 mA sink), and >> the output high leakage current. > > Where did you find those specs? I see a Unibus Spec on Bitsavers, but it doesn't appear to mention the electrical specs. > They exist in various DEC handbooks. I don?t recall which one had them. The specs are fairly stringent in order to meet the max unibus bus lengths (my 11/40 is close to max). TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 21 14:11:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:11:00 -0400 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <532BB774-8A94-4991-9F3E-BFE0DC099372@shiresoft.com> References: <20161020220550.EC9F618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0B5B939A-0522-40AC-B9C2-A99BB33879E1@comcast.net> <532BB774-8A94-4991-9F3E-BFE0DC099372@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > >> On Oct 21, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 20, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> >>>> From: David Bridgham >>> >>>> the right threshold voltage to meet the receiver spec >>> >>> The UNIBUS spec says the 4 crucial receiver parameters are input thresholds >>> (high and low), and the input currents (high and low); the crucial >>> transmitter parameters are the output low voltage (at 50 mA sink), and >>> the output high leakage current. >> >> Where did you find those specs? I see a Unibus Spec on Bitsavers, but it doesn't appear to mention the electrical specs. >> > > They exist in various DEC handbooks. I don?t recall which one had them. Found it. 1976 Peripherals Handbook, page 6-4. It specifies the driver output low voltage at 70 mA sink, not 50... paul From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Oct 21 14:14:14 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:14:14 -0700 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <532BB774-8A94-4991-9F3E-BFE0DC099372@shiresoft.com> References: <20161020220550.EC9F618C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0B5B939A-0522-40AC-B9C2-A99BB33879E1@comcast.net> <532BB774-8A94-4991-9F3E-BFE0DC099372@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: To solve the loading problem a division of Tektronix built their own Unibus repeater. We not only had a lot of stuff attached to the Unibus but was in multiple rack instruments. We also went with round cables the Tektronix made internally. We also made our own Unibus cables and added a few LEDs to the paddle boards, power status was one of them. Can't remember what the others were far. A picture of the first generation of the system http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?doc_id=1320717&image_number=1 By the time I ended up at Tek the PDP11 had been renamed CP-1160 and came in custom colors of light and dark blue. The Unibus had to make it from the PDP to a couple of the boxes near the lower left. On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > On Oct 21, 2016, at 11:41 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > > > >> On Oct 20, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > >>> From: David Bridgham > >> > >>> the right threshold voltage to meet the receiver spec > >> > >> The UNIBUS spec says the 4 crucial receiver parameters are input > thresholds > >> (high and low), and the input currents (high and low); the crucial > >> transmitter parameters are the output low voltage (at 50 mA sink), and > >> the output high leakage current. > > > > Where did you find those specs? I see a Unibus Spec on Bitsavers, but > it doesn't appear to mention the electrical specs. > > > > They exist in various DEC handbooks. I don?t recall which one had them. > > The specs are fairly stringent in order to meet the max unibus bus lengths > (my 11/40 is close to max). > > TTFN - Guy > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 14:16:11 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:16:11 -0700 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Starting my trek through old tape archives, I can find EMACS (all caps) mentioned in 1978. (MIT labs). Is there any earlier mention? --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 21 14:23:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage Message-ID: <20161021192333.F244818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > 1976 Peripherals Handbook, page 6-4. It specifies the driver output > low voltage at 70 mA sink, not 50... Differing editions give slightly different numbers. I was looking at the 1972 edition (which was the one that was closest to hand, no other reason); the number I gave is on pg. 204. I haven't checked later ones to see if there were further revisions. The later 70mA sink spec is probably a slightly more robust number to work with. Noel From lars at nocrew.org Fri Oct 21 14:51:35 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 21:51:35 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: (Chuck Guzis's message of "Fri, 21 Oct 2016 12:16:11 -0700") References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <867f91mqew.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Chuck Guzis write: > Starting my trek through old tape archives, I can find EMACS (all caps) > mentioned in 1978. (MIT labs). Is there any earlier mention? Yes. Files in MIT's ITS systems documents the early EMACS history well. For example, MC:EAK;EMACS LORE. David Moon: > In August 1976, a bunch of hackers decided it was time to write a new > editor, using the sharable-library and named-commands (MM) technology > developed by Tmacs, but intended for general use. Tmacs was not > really set up to be used by anyone but its maintainers, and I think > every user had a different set of key bindings, although by that time > it was in use by perhaps eight or ten people. The new editor, which > was initially called "?" because that was a command name which could > not be typed to DDT, was supposed to take full advantage of the TV > keyboards, to have a more sensible and consistent set of commands, to > have good self-documentation, and to be faster than Tecmac. ? was > intended to woo people away from Tecmac. > > The initial work, up to the point of a semi-usable system, was done by > GLS. Later, RMS got interested in his indefatigible fashion, put in a > large number of features, and made Teco changes to greatly increase > the efficiency and flavorfulness. The editor was renamed to Emacs > (abbreviated E) in imitation of the name of the Stanford editor, which > it otherwise does not resemble. Notes: Tmacs, Tecmac, etc were several competing macro packages for TECO. GLS = Guy Steele. RMS = Richard Stallman. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 16:15:07 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:15:07 -0400 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: Any disk or archive you come upon from the early 90's should be scanned for viruses before use on a vintage machine. USe a modern PC as it's no biggie to clean old viruses that way. Scan before you use on an older machine, scan inside of ZIP files not just the zip itself. There were three viruses that I found years ago on the most-often seen Maslin archive set. Old stuff that's not an issue for modern machines. b On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Does that archive on classiccmp.org have the infected images removed or > cleaned? (Just curious as I remember this came up in a couple other forums > that I think one or two of the images did have a virus). > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:17 AM, James Attfield > wrote: > > > > From: "Mike Stein" > > > Subject: Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > > > Any chance you still have a copy of that CP/M port buried somewhere? > > > We're sort of collecting the various Cromemco ports and emulators. > > > > > Sorry Mike, I didn't think so but went through my diskettes anyway and no > > go > > - all CDOS. I do believe that there was a Cromemco CP/M in the Don Maslim > > archives and another in the classicmp Dave Dunfield archives here > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/system.htm. If all else > > fails, I > > have found a CROMCPM.TD0 file in my archives which is Teledisk format and > > is > > 607Kb but I don't have a functional Teledisk at the moment so can't tell > > what it represents. I'm not sure of the source but would be happy to > > forward > > it to someone with a functional Teledisk, or Dave Dunfield's converter > from > > TD0 to his IMD ImageDisk format. > > > > James > > > > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 21 15:22:52 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 22:22:52 +0200 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 19:17 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: HP 7945 disk format > > for anyone wanting to try David's MFM emulator in an HP MFM 7945 disk box, > here is the format, determined from reading a Vertex V170 drive from one > > --sectors 32,0 --heads 7 --cylinders 987 --header_crc 0xffff,0x1021,16,0 -- > data_crc 0xffffffff,0x140a0445,32,5 --format > WD_1006 --sector_length 256 > > The 7945 is notoriously flaky because of the Vertex drives. I know they are, I've three of those and just one works. But do you know the cause of failure of these drive's, except of cause the obvious shorting tantalium caps? I used hpdrive to backup the working one. -Rik From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 21 15:31:48 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 22:31:48 +0200 Subject: RL02 packs available [Was: Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?] In-Reply-To: References: <9A2EA638-42C3-4FB7-9016-B03FFD147D81@nf6x.net> <5807ACA0.5050308@ntlworld.com> <38725D44-A099-4E0F-9BFB-AD82A17C58E0@nf6x.net> <20161020063838.GV26355@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20161021203148.GA5280@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 03:24:28PM -0500, Matt Patoray wrote: > Hello, > > I would be interested in a few RL-02 packs with DDXP or RT-11 on them. Any > idea what you would want for them? Not really :) A bit of patience is necessary though. I don't know if the RL drives I have access to is working. But seeing that at least two persons care I'll bump it up the TODO-list. /P > > Matt > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:38 AM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 05:51:06PM -0700, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > > > > I?m especially interested in accumulating good RL02 packs. I?m even > > > working on a project to add a USB interface to one of my RL02 drives > > > for imaging and writing packs. > > > > > > > I have more RL01 and RL02 packs than I need, some still in original > > packaging. > > > > If you are seriously interested I could muster up the energy to test > > them and put them in the mail. > > > > /P > > > > > > -- > Matt Patoray > Owner, MSP Productions > KD8AMG From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 21 15:33:47 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:33:47 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B5000 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 21, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > A friend of mine is working on an emulator for this Burroughs Large > Systems beast. > > There is an existing one -- https://github.com/pkimpel/retro-b5500 The current SIMH appears to have a B5500, I don't know its status. You might take a look at that. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 16:12:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 14:12:38 -0700 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <15218542-c1a6-5412-c6d6-ad935e8a67fc@bitsavers.org> I suspect it's the head servo. I've been trying to get a solid read out of the v170 I've been experimenting with all morning. It chugs along, recals, then a seek failure. I'd also like to understand the failure mode of Maxtor positioners. I had a 2190 croak (literally) as I was trying to read it. click, click, click, CROWKKKKKKKKK, clunk. On 10/21/16 1:22 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > But do you know the cause of failure of these drive's, except of cause the obvious shorting tantalium caps? > I used hpdrive to backup the working one. > > -Rik > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 16:14:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 14:14:44 -0700 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: <20161021192333.F244818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161021192333.F244818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'd trust the later documents. They went through a lot of pain in the 70's pushing the limits of what the bus could do. If it were me, I'd build the stuff on Eurocards with a cable running to a Unibus paddle. On 10/21/16 12:23 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > 1976 Peripherals Handbook, page 6-4. It specifies the driver output > > low voltage at 70 mA sink, not 50... > > Differing editions give slightly different numbers. I was looking at the 1972 > edition (which was the one that was closest to hand, no other reason); the > number I gave is on pg. 204. I haven't checked later ones to see if there > were further revisions. > > The later 70mA sink spec is probably a slightly more robust number to work > with. > > Noel > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 21 16:32:52 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:32:52 +0200 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <15218542-c1a6-5412-c6d6-ad935e8a67fc@bitsavers.org> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> <15218542-c1a6-5412-c6d6-ad935e8a67fc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000001d22be2$aef8a620$0ce9f260$@xs4all.nl> The ones I have (except of cause the working) seem to find trk0 and generates a drive not ready after that point. I've done some measurement on the drives but they aren?t very consistent with the service manual. There seems to be a jumper configuration which places the drive in a test mode, I've seen it somewhere but can't find it online anymore. I seem to have a hardcopy of it somewhere, I'll look it up, maybe it is of some help. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 23:13 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 7945 disk format > > I suspect it's the head servo. > I've been trying to get a solid read out of the v170 I've been experimenting with > all morning. > It chugs along, recals, then a seek failure. > > > I'd also like to understand the failure mode of Maxtor positioners. I had a 2190 > croak (literally) as I was trying to read it. > > click, click, click, CROWKKKKKKKKK, clunk. > > On 10/21/16 1:22 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > But do you know the cause of failure of these drive's, except of cause the > obvious shorting tantalium caps? > > I used hpdrive to backup the working one. > > > > -Rik > > From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Oct 21 17:05:51 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:05:51 -0700 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 10/21/2016 14:15, william degnan wrote: > Any disk or archive you come upon from the early 90's should be scanned for > viruses before use on a vintage machine. USe a modern PC as it's no biggie > to clean old viruses that way. Scan before you use on an older machine, > scan inside of ZIP files not just the zip itself. There were three viruses > that I found years ago on the most-often seen Maslin archive set. Old > stuff that's not an issue for modern machines. I didn't think modern A/V products included complete historical sets of signatures. I'm sure they can deal with ancient, simple bootloader infections and such, but at some point I'd be concerned there's a gap where something might be too new to be detected by the simplest heuristics, but too old for a more sophisticated signature to be in your common modern products. But this isn't something I've had to deal with. Is this an imagined problem, or has somebody run into this? Thx, --S. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 17:41:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:41:49 -0700 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <000001d22be2$aef8a620$0ce9f260$@xs4all.nl> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> <15218542-c1a6-5412-c6d6-ad935e8a67fc@bitsavers.org> <000001d22be2$aef8a620$0ce9f260$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <82ccb549-ce16-1690-63cf-2509998c3dcc@bitsavers.org> is your copy better than the one at http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/vertex/disk/VERTEX%20V100%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf ? On 10/21/16 2:32 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > The ones I have (except of cause the working) seem to find trk0 and generates a drive not ready after that point. > I've done some measurement on the drives but they aren?t very consistent with the service manual. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 17:43:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:43:23 -0700 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <82ccb549-ce16-1690-63cf-2509998c3dcc@bitsavers.org> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> <15218542-c1a6-5412-c6d6-ad935e8a67fc@bitsavers.org> <000001d22be2$aef8a620$0ce9f260$@xs4all.nl> <82ccb549-ce16-1690-63cf-2509998c3dcc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I also forgot that I found the schematics last year. Up under /pdf/vertex On 10/21/16 3:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > is your copy better than the one at > http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/vertex/disk/VERTEX%20V100%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf > ? > > On 10/21/16 2:32 PM, Rik Bos wrote: >> The ones I have (except of cause the working) seem to find trk0 and generates a drive not ready after that point. >> I've done some measurement on the drives but they aren?t very consistent with the service manual. >> > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 18:34:22 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 01:34:22 +0200 Subject: Burroughs B5000 emulator Message-ID: On 21 October 2016 at 16:37, Liam Proven wrote: > A friend of mine is working on an emulator for this Burroughs Large > Systems beast. [..] > I have suggested to him that it might be easier to work under an > existing mini/mainframe emulator, such as SimH or maybe even > MESS/MAME, but he is highly resistant to this idea, for reasons I do > not really understand. > > I'm interested in opinions: do folk think that it would help, or not? I fully understand. Not everything is easily tweaked to fit into those frameworks. When I wrote my two minicomputer emulators I couldn't see how on earth I could get that working inside simh without increasing the work needed ten or fifty times. There wasn't anything there that would help me for what I had in mind. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:28:25 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:28:25 -0400 Subject: Stanford Computers Message-ID: <29d882.25eb2af6.453a66c9@aol.com> I read something in THE NeXT Best Thing book about Stanford col.. actually making some? or they were in on a design of some book not handy now and my memory may also be flawed on this issue... Ed# In a message dated 10/20/2016 11:18:19 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, wmachacek at q.com writes: Does anyone on this list have any information on Stanford Computers? I have 2 of them that I saved from being recycled many years ago. I have finally gotten around to looking at them more closely. I have a model ?640? and a model ?XT-10?. The 640 has 2 ? 5 ?? floppy drives plus a Conner CP-344, 42MB HD (the HD may have been a later add-on to the original configuration). The XT-10 has 1 ? 5 ?? floppy drive and a NEC D5186, 25MB HD. I could not see a name on the MB in the 640, but the name ?80 Data? was on the XT-10 MB. I believe these to be from the mid to late ?80s time frame. They both have the 9 DB pin video connectors. The XT-10 has an EGA Graphics card, I could not tell what kind of card is in the 640. I am being very reluctant to start pulling cards on a machine this old for fear of breaking something. The ribbon cable seemed somewhat brittle on the 640. Can ribbon cables break due to age? If anyone has any information on these systems, I would appreciate hearing from you. I believe this company was in the bay area somewhere. With the name Stanford Computer, that seems very likely. Thanks for any information you can give me. I am in Colo. Springs. Bill Machacek From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 19:34:27 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:34:27 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation Message-ID: Hi, The author of this project http://www.pdp11gy.com built a wire-wrapped board to interface an RL02 controller (RL11, RLV21, or RL8A) and an FPGA development board (which does all the heavy lifting for the disk emulation). I decided to build one of these emulators and to design a printed circuit board rather than using wire wrap. The schematics and layout of my RL02 interface board can be found here: http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/RL02 I made changes to the original design (e.g. I used different driver and receiver chips) but I think it should be plug compatible with the original wire-wrapped design. Feedback on this project is most welcome. Regards, Scott From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 21 20:09:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 18:09:34 -0700 Subject: HP 7945 disk format In-Reply-To: <000001d22be2$aef8a620$0ce9f260$@xs4all.nl> References: <9db904e3-9ee0-d495-770e-c1163bf600b9@bitsavers.org> <007401d22bd8$e74a6b30$b5df4190$@xs4all.nl> <15218542-c1a6-5412-c6d6-ad935e8a67fc@bitsavers.org> <000001d22be2$aef8a620$0ce9f260$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <45163979-4c3f-a12c-5230-5280c8e1879b@bitsavers.org> On 10/21/16 2:32 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > There seems to be a jumper configuration which places the drive in a test mode, I've seen it somewhere but can't find it online anymore. > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/priam/V130-26MB-5-25-FH-MFM-ST506.html anyone know of a not-mangled-into-html version of these pages? PRIAM V130/V150/V170/V185 OEM SERVICE MANUAL 308100 REV LTR A J6 Auto Access (for factory use) --------------------------------- Plug x Auto Access 2-15 OPEN CLOSED The drive will perform a repeating series of predetermined seek oper- ations with no signals required on the interface upon power up. This is normally used in the Priam factory to provide dynamic exercise of the during manufacturing burn-in. Auto Access is also referred to as "Self Test" From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 20:22:42 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 21:22:42 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2016 8:30 PM, "Steven M Jones" wrote: > > On 10/21/2016 14:15, william degnan wrote: > > Any disk or archive you come upon from the early 90's should be scanned for > > viruses before use on a vintage machine. USe a modern PC as it's no biggie > > to clean old viruses that way. Scan before you use on an older machine, > > scan inside of ZIP files not just the zip itself. There were three viruses > > that I found years ago on the most-often seen Maslin archive set. Old > > stuff that's not an issue for modern machines. > > I didn't think modern A/V products included complete historical sets of > signatures. I'm sure they can deal with ancient, simple bootloader > infections and such, but at some point I'd be concerned there's a gap > where something might be too new to be detected by the simplest > heuristics, but too old for a more sophisticated signature to be in your > common modern products. > > But this isn't something I've had to deal with. Is this an imagined > problem, or has somebody run into this? > > Thx, > --S. > Stoned Monk is still detectable by modern anti virus software, 25 or whatever years later, at least last time I tested using a win 7 machine. So, that was maybe 4 or 5 years ago. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 20:43:38 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 18:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2016, Steven M Jones wrote: > I didn't think modern A/V products included complete historical sets of > signatures. I'm sure they can deal with ancient, simple bootloader > infections and such, but at some point I'd be concerned there's a gap > where something might be too new to be detected by the simplest > heuristics, but too old for a more sophisticated signature to be in your > common modern products. > But this isn't something I've had to deal with. 1) WHY would they delete older threats from their database? You are NOT talking about a shortage of storage space! 2) Are you going to boot your machine from that image? > Is this an imagined problem? YES. The media panic over the Michaelangelo virus revealed much about the anti-virus "industry". Let's start with the NAME. There was no name IN the virus. It was a copy of the "Stoned" virus that somebody added a nasty payload to (overwrite 100 sectors of disk). WHY was it named "Michaelangelo"? Because somebody in the "anti-virus industry" looked at a calendar to see what was special about March 6. If they had been in Texas, instead of using a KQED calendar, it would have been named "Alamo", which is a far more credible event to name a virus after. 'course it could have been completely random choice, or termination date of somebody's employment. Wikipedia says, "There is no reference to the artist in the virus, but due to the name and date of activation it is very likely that the virus writer intended Michelangelo to be referenced to the virus." Hmmmm. Named after the date (by anti-virus people); because it was named that, that confirms the accuracy of the name. Certain college administrators declared that every machine that was infected would have to be destroyed; "it is impossible to remove the virus". Have I mentioned a colleague whom they tried to terminate for removing machines from dumpsters? At UC Berkeley, agressive scanning was done in student computer labs, and "hundreds" of infected disks were found and DESTROYED. ZERO copies were retained for ANY analysis. Nor was even a count kept, nor followup to try to get students with infected disks to scan their home machines. John McAfee predicted that 5 million computers would be wiped out. The press were called in. On March 6, there were apparently DOZENS of drives wiped. Few, if any records kept to verify numbers. McAfee, as expected, took full credit, and declared that the REASON why it was dozens, instead of millions, was because his warnings were heeded. Six months later, when he took his company public, he raised 42 million dollars. He is currently a fugitive as the "prime suspect" in the murder of his neighbor in Belize (apparently NOT virus related) The "Alameda" virus, with some similarities, but no payload, was discovered at Merritt College. At sister campus, College Of Alameda, an employee who is the brother of an ant-virus author requested naming rights, and we all were glad to let him have that moment of family glory. Later, after one of our students transferred to Yale, it was discovered again, and named "Yale" virus. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Oct 21 21:01:02 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 22:01:02 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> On 10/21/2016 09:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Certain college administrators declared that every machine that was > infected would have to be destroyed; "it is impossible to remove the > virus". Have I mentioned a colleague whom they tried to terminate for > removing machines from dumpsters? > At UC Berkeley, agressive scanning was done in student computer labs, > and "hundreds" of infected disks were found and DESTROYED. ZERO > copies were retained for ANY analysis. Nor was even a count kept, nor > followup to try to get students with infected disks to scan their home > machines. Fred, You nailed it, panic in the streets by people that should know better. Back when I always though he was a criminal and behind it. Also if anyone destroyed a drive or media with it it was out of shear stupidity as a wipe/reformat was all that was needed as the boot-block was not special it was just another block on the media. Floppies with it were bulk erased and reformatted. My favorite formatter was my S100 crate with CP/M, Its impossible to give a single user OS without background processing a virus. I got a lot of free drives around then. A few are still in use. Allison From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Oct 21 21:16:10 2016 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 19:16:10 -0700 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 10/21/2016 18:22, william degnan wrote: > > Stoned Monk is still detectable by modern anti virus software, 25 or > whatever years later, at least last time I tested using a win 7 machine. > So, that was maybe 4 or 5 years ago. Well, glad to hear there's nothing to worry about. Like I said, not an area I've had to deal with (not since the 80s/early 90s, anyway). Thanks for indulging me. --S. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 21:24:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 22:24:23 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: > > John McAfee predicted that 5 million computers would be wiped out. > The press were called in. > > On March 6, there were apparently DOZENS of drives wiped. Few, if any records kept to verify numbers. > McAfee, as expected, took full credit, and declared that the REASON why it was dozens, instead of millions, was because his warnings were heeded. > > Six months later, when he took his company public, he raised 42 million dollars. > > He is currently a fugitive as the "prime suspect" in the murder of his neighbor in Belize (apparently NOT virus related) > > Side note...maybe 6 or 12 months before the big virus scare I called McAfee on the phone and spoke with him about a virus I found on a GRID laptop that I found was copied to 4000 similar machines out in the field where I wokred. He emailed me his latest test iteration of his software, a copy on a scratch disk. It was a very early version. I had no idea of course of his future, but I was impressed with his software because it was light, no install disks and he knew his stuff. We were talking about how to inject his antivirus prpgram into a program I wrote to update laptops remotely by modem, and how we could send virus updates via this process. It was getting impractical to keep sending me disks and we needed a better way. You could not buy his software Viruses were starting to get more numerous. I don't know if he had just started his company, it was not public or anything yet. In fact I got his number inmformally from a manager at a company called Sales Tchnologies out of Atlanta, I w as working with their sales tracking program they were already using my "mass update" system to manage their software and data updates. That's where the virus came from. Fun times all MS DOS based, btrieve database, Sprint Internet exchange for free phine calls inbound from anywhehre in the USA... I also remember building and compiling Sales Tech software version updates on a xerox workstation. When I left they offered me the Xerox but I remember thinking what would I ever do with *that* old piece of junk? "Well Bill you're the only one who knows how to use it so we will just throw it away then, are you sure".."yah, my apartment is too small...." At least that's how I remember it. Bill From fulivi at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 03:50:14 2016 From: fulivi at gmail.com (F.Ulivi) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:50:14 +0200 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: <04803619-CA7D-44EA-866C-16B431EB8405@gmail.com> References: <04803619-CA7D-44EA-866C-16B431EB8405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2cec2f46-9133-60ce-4f69-d108ea2c9e19@tiscali.it> Thanks, I'd appreciate it if you could dump the "revised" 98034 firmware. By the way, I'm working on R.E. of the 9895 hardware. I should have something useful in a few days. Is anyone interested in it? It would be a sort of "dump" of my notes on the hardware, nothing very polished. --F.Ulivi From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 03:53:12 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 02:53:12 -0600 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Craig Ruff wrote: > I?ve sent F.Ulivi the contents of the single ROM version from my 9895A, > along with some preliminary reverse engineering work on the contents that > I?ve done in conjunction with Eric Smith. I've put the partially reverse-engineered 9895A firmware on Github: https://github.com/brouhaha/hp9895fw So far we've figured out some of the Amigo command parsing and some of the PHI chip accesses. (PHI was an HP custom SOS chip for HP-IB.) From fulivi at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 03:55:00 2016 From: fulivi at gmail.com (F.Ulivi) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:55:00 +0200 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: <2cec2f46-9133-60ce-4f69-d108ea2c9e19@tiscali.it> References: <2cec2f46-9133-60ce-4f69-d108ea2c9e19@tiscali.it> Message-ID: Ah, by the way, I've already asked for 98034 firmware to the owner of hp9845.net site. He should be working on the dump. --F.Ulivi From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 22 08:45:28 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <201610221345.JAA24877@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I seem to have stumbled upon a GNU Emacs 13.8. I'll post this > src/display.c snippet as evidence: > [...skull-and-crossbones with text warning...] That looks identical to the comment at the head of display.c from the Gosling derivative I use. Presumably one is derived from the other...? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:12:45 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:12:45 -0400 Subject: MOTD: It is amazing how many ways you can make mistakes with 32-bit instructions Message-ID: <0a4201d22c7f$20625670$61270350$@gmail.com> Published in the National Computer Conference, 1976. Full quote: "He bought an RPC-4000 "at a graveyard-type disposal sale," and later noted, "My RPC is working but I can't get an assembly program more than two-thirds loaded. This produces lots of messages telling me my programs are bad" I suspect some memory aberrations, but the memory print routine won't print either. So I have been trying to write a simpler routine of my own in machine language. That is a drag. It is amazing how many ways you can make mistakes with 32-bit instructions." " Also memorable: "An Indiana hobbyist bought a Univac 0 File Computer as scrap, with arithmetic unit, program-control unit, 90-column reader/punch, sort-collate unit, tape-drive program controller, and six magnetic-tape units. The new owner says, "I had figured to use the outside winter air to get it turned on and see what I've got, and just close down in summer. As to space, not too bad: only about 400 or 500 square feet, pretty compact. I'm presently having 220 V installed to begin to turn on some of it." And *we* think that we have it tough :->. From: https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1976/5084/00/50840235.pdf ----- From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:24:12 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:24:12 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 22 October 2016 at 00:05, Steven M Jones wrote: > I didn't think modern A/V products included complete historical sets of > signatures. I I would certainly expect them to, yes! I used to work for AVG; I can ask if you like. But yes. Also, they include malware signatures from other systems, in case of attachments etc. which can't infect the host machine but could if passed on to one of the target OS. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:44:14 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:44:14 +0200 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dave, exactly! But in place of a plain FPGA, nowadays I would choose a FPGA-ARM board, for example the ZedBoard MicroZed or the Myirtech Z-turn, both of them have a Zynq onboard, and they can run linux for the software side and programmable logic for the interface side. Very nice and flexible. For the development, I'm trying to figure if an hybrid QBUS / UNIBUS solution is possible. Of course one have to switch some jumper to avoid conflicts, but hey, in the end you would have a true universal board. What kind of bus transceivers did you used for the QSIC, specially because you have to go from 5V open-drain logic to 3.3V logic? Thanks Andrea On 10/21/2016 07:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > You mean, perhaps, something like this? > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:44:23 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:44:23 +0200 Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e1aa0d9-76ab-3df2-a291-3b0a97b13836@gmail.com> Hello Dave, exactly! But in place of a plain FPGA, nowadays I would choose a FPGA-ARM board, for example the ZedBoard MicroZed or the Myirtech Z-turn, both of them have a Zynq onboard, and they can run linux for the software side and programmable logic for the interface side. Very nice and flexible. For the development, I'm trying to figure if an hybrid QBUS / UNIBUS solution is possible. Of course one have to switch some jumper to avoid conflicts, but hey, in the end you would have a true universal board. What kind of bus transceivers did you used for the QSIC, specially because you have to go from 5V open-drain logic to 3.3V logic? Thanks Andrea On 10/21/2016 07:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > You mean, perhaps, something like this? > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Oct 22 11:54:26 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 05:54:26 +1300 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: > I used to work for AVG; I can ask if you like. My copy of AVG detected the stoned virus on an old floppy on my WinXP machine a couple of years ago. Terry (Tez) From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 12:09:09 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:09:09 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 22 October 2016 at 18:54, Terry Stewart wrote: > My copy of AVG detected the stoned virus on an old floppy on my WinXP > machine a couple of years ago. :-) A good 5-6y or more ago I restored an old Mac Classic II a friend gave me. I got it dual-booting System 6.0.8 and 7.1 and had both of them online via an Asant? EtherSCSI interface. To do this involved downloading a lot of ancient Mac software on my B&W G3 under OS X, and putting it on Zip disk, then putting the Zip media in the Classic II's SCSI Zip drive. One of the Systems on the Classic was repurposed from another Mac and included some ancient Mac antivirus program -- I forget which one, maybe Disinfectant. I was glad of it, though, as it triggered and found one of my downloads was infected with an equally ancient Mac virus. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Oct 22 12:36:32 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:36:32 -0700 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> > > I didn't think modern A/V products included complete historical sets > > of signatures. I > > > I would certainly expect them to, yes! Just wondering are you guys not running AV SW on your old HW? I personally run period specific AV SW on my older machines. Granted I have mostly IBM 51xx series machines and later Macs so AV SW is easier to find. Since I get most of my stuff for these machines from dubious sources (e-bay, garage sales, some random FTP, etc.) I never know what I am getting. So all of my computers run AV of SW of some form. Biggest issue is finding the latest signature DB that works on older versions of the SW. F-Prot had a DOS version available until a few years ago. I am not sure if any of the AV makers still have an up to date AV SW for DOS... From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 22 12:43:50 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:43:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unibus disk controller with modern storage Message-ID: <20161022174350.C013718C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: shadoooo > they can run linux for the software side Maybe it's just me, but running Linux on an interface card strike me as somewhat grotesque. It's bad enough running a far faster chip than the vintage CPU, but... a majorly complex operating system to boot? > I'm trying to figure if an hybrid QBUS / UNIBUS solution is possible. > Of course one have to switch some jumper to avoid conflicts Lots and lots and lots and lots of jumpers. The two buses are completely unlike, pinout-wise. And the UNIBUS board has to be a quad, and there are some QBUS chassis which only take duals... > What kind of bus transceivers did you used for the QSIC We used a mix of DS8641 quad transceivers (they're still available in reasonably good numbers for a reasonable price) and AM2908 octal latching transceivers with a tri-state output (to allow us to have a bidirectional internal bus for BDAL00-BDAL21 - we were trying to minimize the number of pins needed on the FPGA to interfaces to the QBUS). But we probably will use a different FPGA on the production boards, and all DS8641's. > you have to go from 5V open-drain logic to 3.3V logic? We do that with separate 74LVC7T245 level converter chips. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 12:48:04 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:48:04 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> Message-ID: On 22 October 2016 at 19:36, Ali wrote: > > Just wondering are you guys not running AV SW on your old HW? I personally run period specific AV SW on my older machines. Granted I have mostly IBM 51xx series machines and later Macs so AV SW is easier to find. > > Since I get most of my stuff for these machines from dubious sources (e-bay, garage sales, some random FTP, etc.) I never know what I am getting. So all of my computers run AV of SW of some form. Biggest issue is finding the latest signature DB that works on older versions of the SW. F-Prot had a DOS version available until a few years ago. I am not sure if any of the AV makers still have an up to date AV SW for DOS... Well, no. My vintage machines are, TBH, rarely powered on and I'm considering getting rid of almost everything. I don't have my own house any more. Most of the collection had gone already. My vague plan is to mostly restrict it to portable/battery-powered kit from now on -- as they're much smaller! For things like Cambridge Z88, Psions, Amstrad NC100, Sinclair Spectrums etc., it's academic. I'm not aware of either malware or antimalware for them. Most don't support disk drives anyway -- or as in the Spectrum, there were dozens and no standard, so software couldn't adapt and none were so dominant as to be worth targeting. I don't have more than 1-2 vintage machines able to run DOS or Windows and mostly wouldn't want to! The Macs should do, yes -- but then most of those are going, I'm afraid. I don't have the space any more, and when I did, I never used them except when fixing them up to sell. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lars at nocrew.org Sat Oct 22 12:49:06 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:49:06 +0200 Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <201610221345.JAA24877@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> (mouse@rodents-montreal.org's message of "Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:45:28 -0400 (EDT)") References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <201610221345.JAA24877@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <86r378l1f1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Mouse writes: >> I seem to have stumbled upon a GNU Emacs 13.8. I'll post this > >> [...skull-and-crossbones with text warning...] > > That looks identical to the comment at the head of display.c from the > Gosling derivative I use. Presumably one is derived from the other...? Yes, it's the same in the copy of Gosling Emacs I got. I asked Gosling himself, and he referred me to Brian Reid. He got it from Gosling in 1983, and it was modified at DEC over the years. What pedigree is your copy? From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Oct 22 13:53:58 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:53:58 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> Message-ID: <16bc0ec5-f904-ccd2-3ccb-b6f6681dba80@verizon.net> On 10/22/2016 01:36 PM, Ali wrote: >>> I didn't think modern A/V products included complete historical sets >>> of signatures. I >> >> I would certainly expect them to, yes! > > Just wondering are you guys not running AV SW on your old HW? I personally run period specific AV SW on my older machines. Granted I have mostly IBM 51xx series machines and later Macs so AV SW is easier to find. > If its a PC and running M$ it has it... I don't collect them but have a few oldies for the utility they present. Even the mainstay PCs in use are linux based. For those times I need winders VMware/Openbox virtualization keeps it well contained. The rest of the hardware is DEC PDP-8f, Qbus PDP11s (11/03 through 11/73) and Qbus VAX plus 3100series. The S100 gear runs CP/M as do the 8080/8085/z80 SBCs so no risk there the remainder are odd things like IMSAI 3035 control computer Ti9900, 6502 and others that virus/trogans mean nothing. I can't Imagine malware for my AmproLB+ or Kaypro4/84 would look like. In general if its not internet connected its very low risk and if it can't run M$ OS on intel its even less risk. When I find a bug using the PDP-11 running RT11 or the Vax running VMS makes it really easy to dissect the code without worry of it escaping. For those times I wish to visit a site that is flagged as dropping malware using an expendable virtual machine (copy of one) has proven both safe and handy. Allison From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 14:18:14 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 21:18:14 +0200 Subject: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, we are discussing on separate thread about doing an universal interface for PDP11. I'm taking all the relevant documentation about Unibus and Qbus busses, aiming to check the possibility of doing a board compatible, with some adjustments, with both worlds. I started to read the 1979 specifications, however it's not all clear to me, specially about Unibus. What I understood: - Qbus is complete on A and B connectors, so a dual card could be done. Some backplanes have a true serpentine, while some other has C and D with other signals, but those are of particular usage with dual-board interfaces. Basically both dual and quad boards can be done, with the latter using A and B and simply propagating grant on C and D, supposedly connected in standard serpentine. Unibus: the specifications are describing A and B, but backplanes are complicate than that, and can have Unibus, Modified Unibus, Extended Unibus, SPC... What for? If all the signals are in AB, why they are connected again in CDEF? There's some complete documentation about the different backplane types, and the standard approach for an Unibus board? Thanks Andrea From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Oct 22 15:08:34 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:08:34 -0400 Subject: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> On 10/22/2016 03:18 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > we are discussing on separate thread about doing an universal interface for > PDP11. > I'm taking all the relevant documentation about Unibus and Qbus busses, > aiming to check the possibility of doing a board compatible, with some > adjustments, with both worlds. > I started to read the 1979 specifications, however it's not all clear to > me, specially about Unibus. > > What I understood: > - Qbus is complete on A and B connectors, so a dual card could be done. > Some backplanes have a true serpentine, while some other has C and D with > other signals, but those are of particular usage with dual-board interfaces. > Basically both dual and quad boards can be done, with the latter using A > and B and simply propagating grant on C and D, supposedly connected in > standard serpentine. > > Unibus: the specifications are describing A and B, but backplanes are > complicate than that, and can have Unibus, Modified Unibus, Extended > Unibus, SPC... > What for? > If all the signals are in AB, why they are connected again in CDEF? > There's some complete documentation about the different backplane types, > and the standard approach for an Unibus board? > > Thanks > Andrea > There are later DEC databooks on the net that give a more complete picture. The biggest total difference is the QBUS the address (a0-15) and data d0-15 are multiplexed. So separate boards make more sense for the buses when you allow for the Qbus being AB and Unibus minimally quad or hex size. FYI the CD and some cases EF width for Qbus was to allow for quad wide and hex wide cards for large peripherals or memories (PDP-11 Qbus CORE is hex wide) and many board sets for Qbus like RLV-11 (two boards) need CD interconnect to ty both together but not for CPU access where the single board version RLV21 is only a single quad wide. So a Qbus mass storage could be a dual width and can be very simple for IDE/CF or maybe SD. Often the larger problem is not building hardware (there was an IDE design out there for QBUS VAX or PDP11 using PIO transfers) but a driver for VMS, Ultrix, RT11, RSX11, RSTS was a totally larger project. So to do that you have two project the hardware is fairly straight forward (see the applicable Bus interfacing books put out by DEC) but the software to use it is a project. FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software protocol MSCP as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. Allison From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 22 17:05:44 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:05:44 -0400 Subject: MSCP - was Re: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-10-22 4:08 PM, allison wrote: > ... > FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software > protocol MSCP > as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. It's been implemented in simh, afaik. Its reputation is a little more imposing than the reality. --Toby > > > Allison > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 06:39:41 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 07:39:41 -0400 Subject: MSCP - was Re: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 10/22/16 6:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-10-22 4:08 PM, allison wrote: >> ... >> FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software >> protocol MSCP >> as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. > > It's been implemented in simh, afaik. Its reputation is a little more > imposing than the reality. > > --Toby > > That may be so but putting it on a board to accept a IDE drive is far more useful to us that run hardware. Why IDE, It can use CF and I also have a large supply of drives from 20-512mb. Fortunately I have a large supply of MFM drives and two SCSI controllers for the larger supply of SCSI drives. However, I feel I'm the exception and many Qbus users are not so fortunate. Where is the source code to for that? That is the drive side of that. Allison From agrier at poofygoof.com Sat Oct 22 14:59:49 2016 From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:59:49 -0700 Subject: turbochannel available Message-ID: <20161022195949.GE4810@arwen.poofy.goof.com> I have pmaz SCSI controller, a couple lofis, and a bunch of 8MB pmax+ modules that are being threatened with the local electronics recycler. send me the address of your good home or place of business in the continental US states, and I'll spare them that fate. -- Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 22 13:44:24 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:44:24 -0700 Subject: Blown Tantalum Capacitor Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2222ed00-f948-2a0e-3cd4-55d98db04858@bitsavers.org> sigh.. found a series of posts in comp.sys.perq and Tony and RD Davis (RIP) were discussing this twenty years ago :-( where did you find the information about the guard band pattern at the ends? On 10/9/16 10:29 AM, shadoooo wrote: > Then try to insert some small pieces of paper over one limit (if I'm not > wrong the failing is the left) in place of the missing rubber, and try the > disc, and continue to add thickness until it works. > Then you are sure about the right limit to move. > Then remove the paper, loosen a little the screw, but just a little so the > limit will not move unless pushed with some strength and a screwdriver. > Then move a very small amount towards the center and try, then repeat trial > and error until the disc starts. Then tight the screw and it is over. > Close the disc and voila. > > Andrea > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 22 13:55:18 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:55:18 -0700 Subject: Altos 686/886 (i286) MFM drive parameters Message-ID: <5022c159-1478-e6a6-7e12-d11dcd775919@bitsavers.org> micropolis 1325 --sectors 16,0 --heads 8 --cylinders 1024 --header_crc 0xffff,0x1021,16,0 --data_crc 0xffffffff,0x140a0445,32,5 --format WD_1006 --sector_length 512 40 meg disk in the system used a 1323, 4 heads instead of 8 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 14:21:42 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > :-) > A good 5-6y or more ago I restored an old Mac Classic II a friend gave > me. I got it dual-booting System 6.0.8 and 7.1 and had both of them > online via an Asant? EtherSCSI interface. To do this involved > downloading a lot of ancient Mac software on my B&W G3 under OS X, and > putting it on Zip disk, then putting the Zip media in the Classic II's > SCSI Zip drive. > One of the Systems on the Classic was repurposed from another Mac and > included some ancient Mac antivirus program -- I forget which one, > maybe Disinfectant. I was glad of it, though, as it triggered and > found one of my downloads was infected with an equally ancient Mac > virus. But "Marketing" convinced the public that Macs were IMMUNE TO GETTING VIRUSES! :-) From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 15:29:31 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 15:29:31 -0500 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_Archived_viruses,_was_Re:_Reasonab?= =?US-ASCII?Q?le_price_for_a_complete_SOL-20=0D__system=3F?= Message-ID: <7b7vlbkie14veb09jccak2ck.1477168171391@email.android.com> I wouldn't dismiss it if you're using images or any used software. Yes some platforms are more susceptible than others but unless you have no hard drive, power your system off after every use, and never switch disks while system is running it's still something that can infest your originals or archive. Dan's great collection of cpm is a good example of something that ended up passed around the community and had a few infected images. ?Depending on whether it's a file, boot sector, MBr or TSR it will different and potentially detrimental impact. I stopped archiving my Amiga disks but at a place I worked that had Amiga systems some kids brought in lots of games (some cracked) and while we didn't allow that it was spring break and they had finished their work. What's the worst that could happen? Kids slowly starting to walk up and say their computer says it's infected with a virus. Probably one disk but who knows how many were infected after that. Took me longer just to find an antivirus for the Amiga than to get the systems cleaned lol but still, an unexpected pain. One of the best preventative methods if the software doesn't need to write to the originals is write protect the floppy. ?But buying used, who knows if the previous owner was computer savvy or safe. -------- Original message --------From: Steven M Jones Well, glad to hear there's nothing to worry about.? From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 15:29:31 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 15:29:31 -0500 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_Archived_viruses,_was_Re:_Reasonab?= =?US-ASCII?Q?le_price_for_a_complete_SOL-20=0D__system=3F?= Message-ID: <7b7vlbkie14veb09jccak2ck.1477168171391@email.android.com> I wouldn't dismiss it if you're using images or any used software. Yes some platforms are more susceptible than others but unless you have no hard drive, power your system off after every use, and never switch disks while system is running it's still something that can infest your originals or archive. Dan's great collection of cpm is a good example of something that ended up passed around the community and had a few infected images. ?Depending on whether it's a file, boot sector, MBr or TSR it will different and potentially detrimental impact. I stopped archiving my Amiga disks but at a place I worked that had Amiga systems some kids brought in lots of games (some cracked) and while we didn't allow that it was spring break and they had finished their work. What's the worst that could happen? Kids slowly starting to walk up and say their computer says it's infected with a virus. Probably one disk but who knows how many were infected after that. Took me longer just to find an antivirus for the Amiga than to get the systems cleaned lol but still, an unexpected pain. One of the best preventative methods if the software doesn't need to write to the originals is write protect the floppy. ?But buying used, who knows if the previous owner was computer savvy or safe. -------- Original message --------From: Steven M Jones Well, glad to hear there's nothing to worry about.? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 22 16:10:58 2016 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 22:10:58 +0100 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <1d81f417-009d-0cf0-aa25-eaf7dcfd5da5@philpem.me.uk> On 22/10/16 20:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > But "Marketing" convinced the public that Macs were IMMUNE TO GETTING > VIRUSES! :-) And "Engineering" (aka some teenager playing on their parents' Mac) decided to convince Marketing that they were wrong? And the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability... ;) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 22 16:13:05 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 17:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old versions of Emacs In-Reply-To: <86r378l1f1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> References: <8c07738f-6abb-45f4-9810-17b52e14120b@gmx.de> <864m47ryz5.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <1A98E60A-52D6-450B-BD56-EE3B3C81DFC5@eschatologist.net> <86funpmtbm.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <201610221345.JAA24877@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <86r378l1f1.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <201610222113.RAA19737@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...skull-and-crossbones with text warning...] >> That looks identical to the comment at the head of display.c from >> the Gosling derivative I use. > Yes, it's the same in the copy of Gosling Emacs I got. I asked > Gosling himself, and he referred me to Brian Reid. He got it from > Gosling in 1983, and it was modified at DEC over the years. What > pedigree is your copy? I got it from a prerelase of Eunice, obtained because one of the people behind Eunice personally knew some people at the lab I was then hanging out at. ("Then" is mid-'80s sometime.) Once I started using a real Unix (4.2c, then 4.3 shortly after that, then SunOS, then....) I ripped out the special-case Eunice code and have been maintaining (and slowly evolving) it over the years since then. Incidentally (and only partially releatedly), the comment means what it says. I once tried to rewrite that module, to teach myself how it worked, and succeeded in nothing but slowing it down by about a factor of some 2 to 3 and introducing assorted bugs as well. Someday I'm going to find the time to really figure it out. I don't know how to usefully describe what sort of version it is; that is, I don't know what information would be useful to you. If you can describe a useful test, I can see what it gives.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 22 16:21:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:21:09 -0700 Subject: Altos 686/886 (i286) MFM drive parameters In-Reply-To: <5022c159-1478-e6a6-7e12-d11dcd775919@bitsavers.org> References: <5022c159-1478-e6a6-7e12-d11dcd775919@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: also, did the Altos Xenix 3.2F distribution floppies ever surface. It is installed on the disks, but the images I wrote would have to be scrubbed of the user stuff on there. On 10/22/16 11:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > micropolis 1325 > > --sectors 16,0 --heads 8 --cylinders 1024 --header_crc 0xffff,0x1021,16,0 --data_crc 0xffffffff,0x140a0445,32,5 > --format WD_1006 --sector_length 512 > > 40 meg disk in the system used a 1323, 4 heads instead of 8 > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 22 16:39:12 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 23:39:12 +0200 Subject: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6e04fcd5-9244-6773-66a1-dfb14a20bff6@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-22 22:08, allison wrote: > So to do that you have two project the hardware is fairly straight > forward (see the > applicable Bus interfacing books put out by DEC) but the software to use > it is a project. > FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software > protocol MSCP > as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. Every time I thought about it, or even started, I gave up, because there aren't simply enough people who would buy such a thing. The prices for an old working Qbus SCSI controller are low enough, to just wait until you get one on ebay for a decent price. So all of my machines have SCSI in the meantime, and the headache of making my own is gone ;-) From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 16:46:28 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:46:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for HP98034 / HP9895 ROM images In-Reply-To: <2cec2f46-9133-60ce-4f69-d108ea2c9e19@tiscali.it> References: <04803619-CA7D-44EA-866C-16B431EB8405@gmail.com> <2cec2f46-9133-60ce-4f69-d108ea2c9e19@tiscali.it> Message-ID: <7A18A081-AE15-486D-B46C-55DF7EC20190@gmail.com> Very interested, I have one in the restore queue Marc Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:50 AM, F.Ulivi wrote: > > Thanks, I'd appreciate it if you could dump the "revised" 98034 firmware. > By the way, I'm working on R.E. of the 9895 hardware. I should have > something useful in a few days. Is anyone interested in it? It would be > a sort of "dump" of my notes on the hardware, nothing very polished. > --F.Ulivi From dab at froghouse.org Sat Oct 22 17:40:59 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:40:59 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers (was Re: Unibus disk controller with modern storage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/22/2016 12:44 PM, shadoooo wrote: > What kind of bus transceivers did you used for the QSIC, specially > because you have > to go from 5V open-drain logic to 3.3V logic? To add to Noel's answer, here's a picture of our current prototype board. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/qsic-wirewrap.jpg Coming up from the QBUS, the first two rows of chips are the bus transceivers. The next row and a half are the level-converters. Then the two large ribbon cables run off to the FPGA module we're using for development. The two small ribbon cables go to the indicator panel. Just the bus interface takes over half the area of a dual-height board! I've played around with laying out what might be the production board (when I get tired of Verilog and want a mindless break, I doodle with kicad) and I've got it down to a row of 8641 bus transceivers and a row or two of the level-converter chips. It's better but still a good fraction of the entire board. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/proto-pcb.jpg Now I thought, what if my idea of that two MOSFET bus transceiver would work? What would the board look like then? http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/qsic-smt.jpg Obviously that could be squeezed down a lot more. Even another transistor or two per bus line would still be fairly small. Doing the bus transceiver and level-conversion in one step makes a big difference. For the QSIC, we're going to have sufficient room and we're able to find enough old bus transceivers to continue on as we're going. Still, I'd sure love to have an option that used production parts and took up less board space. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Oct 22 18:52:26 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:52:26 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers (was Re: Unibus disk controller with modern storage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05fdd589-2f07-e69b-1d68-087aa9d603e9@verizon.net> On 10/22/2016 06:40 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 10/22/2016 12:44 PM, shadoooo wrote: > >> What kind of bus transceivers did you used for the QSIC, specially >> because you have >> to go from 5V open-drain logic to 3.3V logic? > To add to Noel's answer, here's a picture of our current prototype board. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/qsic-wirewrap.jpg > > Coming up from the QBUS, the first two rows of chips are the bus > transceivers. The next row and a half are the level-converters. Then > the two large ribbon cables run off to the FPGA module we're using for > development. The two small ribbon cables go to the indicator panel. > Just the bus interface takes over half the area of a dual-height board! > I've played around with laying out what might be the production board > (when I get tired of Verilog and want a mindless break, I doodle with > kicad) and I've got it down to a row of 8641 bus transceivers and a row > or two of the level-converter chips. It's better but still a good > fraction of the entire board. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/proto-pcb.jpg > > Now I thought, what if my idea of that two MOSFET bus transceiver would > work? What would the board look like then? > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/qsic-smt.jpg > > Obviously that could be squeezed down a lot more. Even another > transistor or two per bus line would still be fairly small. Doing the > bus transceiver and level-conversion in one step makes a big difference. > > For the QSIC, we're going to have sufficient room and we're able to find > enough old bus transceivers to continue on as we're going. Still, I'd > sure love to have an option that used production parts and took up less > board space. > > For bus to card LS241, LS244 and LS245 were used in the day by heathkit (H11) For bus to card with hysteresis LS14 was a common choice along with LS13 or maybe LS132. Other considerations the DEC specs were based on available devices of the day (late 70s) and in the last 40 years there are a plethora of better devices that replace those easily. The key being Schmidt input (bus to card level) for noise immunity and robust drive for the output devices. Many of those were also used for S100 (less well thought out and often noisier.) with good success. I've copied and used those for making boards as needed for Qbus and Omnibus as those represent the common DEC buses outside of SCSI in the hardware I own. One thing I'm adverse to is bus to CMOS without buffering or the reverse even if the CMOS can drive the bus. Unexpected ringing or spikes on the bus can play havoc with those as well as poor ESD practices. Now the problems of board space and available parts may force SMT and CMOS for the internal circuits and also power conservation (and thermal management). Allison From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 23:02:01 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 23:02:01 -0500 Subject: Maslin archive "virus"? (Was: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <20161023040201.GA13759@gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, Sam O'nella wrote: > > > Does that archive on classiccmp.org have the infected images removed or > > > cleaned? (Just curious as I remember this came up in a couple other forums > > > that I think one or two of the images did have a virus). > > > > an 8080/Z80 compatible CP/M virus??? > > Or are you talking about a virus in some sort of MS-DOS image? > > Or an MS-DOS boot sector virus that wrote itself onto the "boot sector" > > of a non-MS-DOS format? > > OK, answering my own query, I did a trivial amount of GOOGLEing, and found > discussion that said that "Stoned" was found in TD0 images of PC-7000 MS-DOS > 2.11. Where is this image? I found what I think is the Maslin archive at http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ but I don't see any Sharp stuff there. -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 23 00:12:53 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 22:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Maslin archive "virus"? (Was: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <20161023040201.GA13759@gmail.com> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <20161023040201.GA13759@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Where is this image? I found what I think is the Maslin archive at > http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ but I don't see any Sharp stuff > there. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-34683.html includes a post: MasawVx July 30th, 2014, 08:59 PM beware!!! there are 3 viruses detected on the archive. i scanned it using f-prot windows. [Found virus] C:\AARDVARK_Tape_Backups\25jul96\sydex\dos\pc-7000.td0->(TeleDisk) [Found virus] C:\AARDVARK_Tape_Backups\maslin_c_d_10apr97\ddrive \sydex\dos\pc-7000.td0->(TeleDisk) [Found virus] C:\AARDVARK_Tape_Backups\maslin_c_d_3oct95\ddrive\ sydex\dos\pc-7000.td0->(TeleDisk) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 23 08:02:52 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:02:52 +0100 Subject: ASTEC 8151 PSU (TRS80, Osborne etc) Message-ID: Hi folks, Now that the bouncing has calmed down I've got a question about this here triple output pretty ubiquitous power supply. This one had some burst caps so naturally wasn't working and was probably why the machine it came out of was taken out of use. I've replaced all of them because why not, along with the .1uF mains filtering cap that would also burst at some point and I still get low output on all rails. I've tested all the major components out of circuit and checked for shorts; in Apple ][ power supplies (also Astec, apart from the ones that aren't) low output is mostly caused by a feedback capacitor (C7) going out of spec, but these are all new and as close a match to the originals I could find. One thing I've not done is reflowed all connections so I'll do that later, but has anyone got experience of common failure modes with these things? Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 08:07:19 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 09:07:19 -0400 Subject: Maslin archive "virus"? (Was: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <20161023040201.GA13759@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2016 1:13 AM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> >> Where is this image? I found what I think is the Maslin archive at >> http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/ but I don't see any Sharp stuff >> there. > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-34683.html > includes a post: > > MasawVx > July 30th, 2014, 08:59 PM > beware!!! > there are 3 viruses detected on the archive. i scanned it using f-prot windows. > [Found virus] C:\AARDVARK_Tape_Backups\25jul96\sydex\dos\pc-7000.td0->(TeleDisk) > [Found virus] C:\AARDVARK_Tape_Backups\maslin_c_d_10apr97\ddrive \sydex\dos\pc-7000.td0->(TeleDisk) > [Found virus] C:\AARDVARK_Tape_Backups\maslin_c_d_3oct95\ddrive\ sydex\dos\pc-7000.td0->(TeleDisk) > > Yup that was me. It would be easy enough for anyone with this archive to locate the above referenced files and clean them out. I don't have the cleaned Maslin archive on my site but I could post. I think I took it down after a while. Don't remember. My site is not geared to be an all inclusive archive for things like that. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 09:36:40 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 16:36:40 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 22 October 2016 at 21:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> :-) >> A good 5-6y or more ago I restored an old Mac Classic II a friend gave >> me. I got it dual-booting System 6.0.8 and 7.1 and had both of them >> online via an Asant? EtherSCSI interface. To do this involved >> downloading a lot of ancient Mac software on my B&W G3 under OS X, and >> putting it on Zip disk, then putting the Zip media in the Classic II's >> SCSI Zip drive. >> One of the Systems on the Classic was repurposed from another Mac and >> included some ancient Mac antivirus program -- I forget which one, >> maybe Disinfectant. I was glad of it, though, as it triggered and >> found one of my downloads was infected with an equally ancient Mac >> virus. > > > But "Marketing" convinced the public that Macs were IMMUNE TO GETTING > VIRUSES! :-) No no no -- hang on. Classic MacOS was appallingly vulnerable. It had no user-account security at all, and every disk had a tiny bit of code read and executed when it was mounted, AIUI, to customise the icon etc. Personal computer viruses more or less originated on the classic Mac. But OS X is effectively immune to all of them, and AFAIK there are no true viruses for OS X even now. But you need to use a narrow strict definition. There are many Trojans, but they need to social-engineer or trick the user into agreeing, clicking OK and entering a password. That's not a virus if it requires user interaction to propagate. Ditto there are sploits and worms that attack OS X servers, but since OS X servers are fairly rare, so are the sploits. And OS X has a much-modified FreeBSD userland underneath it, and some of those componets are vulnerable too. So it's a bit of a hair-splitting argument. What it is _not_ is plain marketing lies, such as "Windows NT is a microkernel". -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 23 10:04:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161023150420.C6CC318C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> The fact that the installation procedures for V6 and V7 are wholly different, in their technical detail, was apparently not well known. The 'Setting up Unix' documents are more checklists, they don't go into a lot of detail as to what is actually happening, so I have prepared two pages on the Computer History wiki: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Sixth_Edition http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Seventh_Edition which go into more detail on what is actually happening. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 23 10:08:30 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation Message-ID: <20161023150830.0C81E18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Scott Baker > Feedback on this project is most welcome. Any chance it could be put into 'production'? It just seems to me that rather than having 53 people send in individual orders for boards, etc it would be better (and also perhaps get a price break due to volume) to do a small run. (You may not want to produce complete boards, but even kits would be useful.) I think an RL02 simulator is a great idea; those of us with RL0x controllers could use this most of the time, avoiding potential damage to our old drives/disks; I know I would buy several if they were available. Also, what FPGA board are you using? I assume it's one that has an SD card socket or something, for actually storing the bits on? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 10:09:36 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:09:36 -0400 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <20161023150420.C6CC318C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161023150420.C6CC318C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > The fact that the installation procedures for V6 and V7 are wholly > different, > in their technical detail, was apparently not well known. > > The 'Setting up Unix' documents are more checklists, they don't go into a > lot > of detail as to what is actually happening, so I have prepared two pages on > the Computer History wiki: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Sixth_Edition > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Seventh_Edition > > which go into more detail on what is actually happening. > > Noel > Thanks, this is useful information. Bill From sales at elecplus.com Sun Oct 23 11:03:16 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:03:16 -0500 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <077201d22d46$f7ad0e00$e7072a00$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 9:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? On 22 October 2016 at 21:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 22 Oct 2016, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> :-) >> A good 5-6y or more ago I restored an old Mac Classic II a friend >> gave me. I got it dual-booting System 6.0.8 and 7.1 and had both of >> them online via an Asant? EtherSCSI interface. To do this involved >> downloading a lot of ancient Mac software on my B&W G3 under OS X, >> and putting it on Zip disk, then putting the Zip media in the Classic >> II's SCSI Zip drive. >> One of the Systems on the Classic was repurposed from another Mac and >> included some ancient Mac antivirus program -- I forget which one, >> maybe Disinfectant. I was glad of it, though, as it triggered and >> found one of my downloads was infected with an equally ancient Mac >> virus. > > > But "Marketing" convinced the public that Macs were IMMUNE TO GETTING > VIRUSES! :-) No no no -- hang on. Classic MacOS was appallingly vulnerable. It had no user-account security at all, and every disk had a tiny bit of code read and executed when it was mounted, AIUI, to customise the icon etc. Personal computer viruses more or less originated on the classic Mac. But OS X is effectively immune to all of them, and AFAIK there are no true viruses for OS X even now. But you need to use a narrow strict definition. There are many Trojans, but they need to social-engineer or trick the user into agreeing, clicking OK and entering a password. That's not a virus if it requires user interaction to propagate. Ditto there are sploits and worms that attack OS X servers, but since OS X servers are fairly rare, so are the sploits. And OS X has a much-modified FreeBSD userland underneath it, and some of those componets are vulnerable too. So it's a bit of a hair-splitting argument. What it is _not_ is plain marketing lies, such as "Windows NT is a microkernel". -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) I still have sealed packs of installation software for very early laptops with DOS. Some of them probably have the Stoned virus on them. I used to have factory original CD install disks from Zip drives, but I threw them all out, because they were all infected with viruses. Iomega was kind enough to send me clean install disks, after I mailed them back one of the infected disks. That prompted a huge recall, back in the 90s. I remember seeing web screens in the early 2000s from viruses; one was a picture of Zeus holding a lightning bolt with the caption "Watch out for Zeus, he will kick your ass!" Another was a picture of the old Kilroy was here, but had the caption of Kiljoy was here. Kiljoy would stay on for about 5 seconds, and then gradually all the network services would be stopped and then deleted from the computer. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 11:35:40 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 12:35:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation In-Reply-To: <20161023150830.0C81E18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161023150830.0C81E18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Scott Baker > > > Feedback on this project is most welcome. > > Any chance it could be put into 'production'? It just seems to me that > rather than having 53 people send in individual orders for boards, etc > it would be better (and also perhaps get a price break due to volume) > to do a small run. (You may not want to produce complete boards, but > even kits would be useful.) > > I think an RL02 simulator is a great idea; those of us with RL0x > controllers > could use this most of the time, avoiding potential damage to our old > drives/disks; I know I would buy several if they were available. > > Also, what FPGA board are you using? I assume it's one that has an SD > card socket or something, for actually storing the bits on? > > Noel > Would also be useful for testing unknown controllers and RL02 packs. b From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 23 12:12:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 10:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: >> But "Marketing" convinced the public that Macs were IMMUNE TO GETTING >> VIRUSES! :-) On Sun, 23 Oct 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > No no no -- hang on. > Classic MacOS was appallingly vulnerable. It had no user-account > security at all, and every disk had a tiny bit of code read and > executed when it was mounted, AIUI, to customise the icon etc. > Personal computer viruses more or less originated on the classic Mac. > > But OS X is effectively immune to all of them, and AFAIK there are no > true viruses for OS X even now. I can believe that. It is not impossible to redesign an OS to be immune to boot sector viruses (especially if you aren't booting from the floppies!), and reasonably resistant to most executable file viruses. "Social engineering" will always be a threat, and virtually impossible to counter, so long as there are college administrators. But, I was explicitly referring to the time BEFORE OS-X! (<1999?) Assholes who proclaimed themselves to be "experts" kept pushing our college administration to SWITCH ALL of our our student computer labs from PC to Mac, mostly using the LIE that "Macs are immune to viruses". But, we stuck to 80-90% PCs. 1) We had a dozen Macs (mostly SE?) and 5 dozen PCs. We were getting higher incidence of viurses on the Macs than the PCs, due to student disks. 2) At the time, certain key pieces of software that we needed (such as COBOL and FORTRAN compilers) were not as readily available on Mac. 3) We had only needed a tiny handful of machines with performance. PC-DOS, Win3.1, and Win95 on 386SX were PERFECTLY suited for homework of programming classes. (small homework assignments, NOT all day production!) Think about anybody who would claim to NEED performance to write "Hello, world". And low performance created BETTER sort programs, by NOT giving the opportunity to "throw hardware at it". Even the "remedial job training for the digital sweatshop" classes (WordPervert, Lotus, dBase, Weird, Office) were well suited for a large number of 386SX machines. 4) At the time, one dozen Macs cost us as much as five dozen PCs! List prices for Macs might have been close to list prices of OEM PCs from IBM, but we were willing to run cheap generic clones, and assemble them ourselves. THAT was significant, when you have a lab FULL of students (and rarely a waiting queue). But, by about the time that OS-X came out, enough students had their own machines that we no longer needed as many. Our administration ceased having the Computer Information Systems department run the labs for Business, Math, etc., and hired IT (mostly grossly incompetents from "trade schools"). They were no longer "our labs". Machines started being down for a week or two for a bad floppy or need for Windoze reinstallation, waiting for IT to get around to them. They hired an extremely expensive outside firm ("because they are experts", and because the college "IT" had no idea how to do it!) to run a public domain test program for Y2K compatibility, and dumpstered the few machines that would have had to have their date manually set [ONCE!] after Y2K. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Oct 23 13:16:24 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:16:24 -0400 Subject: MSCP - was Re: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@ telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > On Oct 22, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2016-10-22 4:08 PM, allison wrote: >> ... >> FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software >> protocol MSCP >> as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. > > It's been implemented in simh, afaik. Its reputation is a little more imposing than the reality. Well, it certainly is vastly more complex than the older CSR-based controllers. That's not to say it's undoable; compared to, say, SCSI it's not that painful. (In fact, you might say it's a natural predecessor of SCSI.) Proprietary, yes. Copyrighted? perhaps so, but copyright is irrelevant if you want to build implementations. (It only matters if you want to make copies of the document.) I assume MSCP was patented, but any patents have expired long ago so those aren't relevant any longer either. The main question is whether a sufficiently accurate spec is available. In the case of MSCP (and TMSCP, which is a close relative) the answer is yes (on Bitsavers). And unlike some other standards sources, DEC standards generally are written to the level of quality that conformance implies interoperability -- in other words, do what the spec says and it will work correctly. paul From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 13:50:30 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 20:50:30 +0200 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, surely the old transceivers are the most compatible solution, however you still need to convert the voltages back and forth... Plus the solution is not the cheaper, and a little uncomfortable too, as you need to find these old chips, hoping not to buy fake chinese duplicates (it happened to me more time unfortunately). So I was searching a solution with modern components, but not using components too much specific and difficult to be found. As we need 3.3v logic, but able to work in 5v bus, I'm thinking about 5v tolerant standard logic as TI LVC or LVT. The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. So identifying one or maybe two codes would be enough for all the components needed for the board. The idea of using bare transistors seems to me too much simple. Not that it couldn't work, but it would be almost impossible to satisfy all the specifications of the bus in this way... unless you use a more complex circuit with precise current sources and resistors to grant correct voltage biases, impedances and slew rates, which in the end is a logic integrated circuit. Andrea From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 23 13:59:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:59:46 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> On 10/23/16 11:50 AM, shadoooo wrote: > The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the > problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, > connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. > The reason for using the old parts is the logic thresholds are unique to the Unibus to handle worst-case bus loading and the termination voltage they used. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sun Oct 23 14:49:53 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 20:49:53 +0100 Subject: Free - IBM PS/2 model 30-286, 50, and 77 for spares/repairs. (Bristol, England) Message-ID: Hi All, I have a few IBM PS/2s in various states of disrepair that are free to anyone willing to collect from Yatton (Near Bristol), or arrange a courier. Systems as follows: Model 30-286 - powers on to BASIC prompt, bad floppy drive, missing hard drive. A few minor scuffs, should make an easy restoration. Model 50 - Boots from HDD to DOS, has bad sectors but might be OK after a low level format, haven't tried it because the FDD is bad. Includes untested tape drive in the second 3.5" drive bay. Some rust spots on case. Model 77 - Very good cosmetic condition but doesn't power on, corrosion around the BIOS chip so I'm guessing it's because of that. If anyone's interested I can take photos and find out the system specs. I also have one of the later IBM PS/2 mice. Regards, -Tom From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 23 15:57:06 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 16:57:06 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d396c70-2bb8-e77a-8183-58c01b4246fb@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-10-23 2:50 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > surely the old transceivers are the most compatible solution, however you > still need to convert the voltages back and forth... > Plus the solution is not the cheaper, and a little uncomfortable too, as > you need to find these old chips, hoping not to buy fake chinese duplicates > (it happened to me more time unfortunately). > > So I was searching a solution with modern components, but not using > components too much specific and difficult to be found. > > As we need 3.3v logic, but able to work in 5v bus, I'm thinking about 5v > tolerant standard logic as TI LVC or LVT. > The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the > problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, > connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. > So identifying one or maybe two codes would be enough for all the > components needed for the board. > > The idea of using bare transistors seems to me too much simple. > Not that it couldn't work, but it would be almost impossible to satisfy all > the specifications of the bus in this way... unless you use a more complex > circuit with precise current sources and resistors to grant correct voltage > biases, impedances and slew rates, which in the end is a logic integrated > circuit. > > Andrea > As an electronics noob, I'm really waiting for somebody to publish their findings on this, comprehensively, so I can steal their labour. Has anyone done so? Is anyone planning to do so? I know that this topic flares up on the list every 6 months ago in a series of disjointed posts and observations. The gold is hard to find (especially for aforesaid noobs). --Toby From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 23 16:35:25 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:35:25 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <8d396c70-2bb8-e77a-8183-58c01b4246fb@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8d396c70-2bb8-e77a-8183-58c01b4246fb@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 10/23/2016 04:57 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-10-23 2:50 PM, shadoooo wrote: >> Hello, >> surely the old transceivers are the most compatible solution, however >> you >> still need to convert the voltages back and forth... >> Plus the solution is not the cheaper, and a little uncomfortable too, as >> you need to find these old chips, hoping not to buy fake chinese >> duplicates >> (it happened to me more time unfortunately). >> >> So I was searching a solution with modern components, but not using >> components too much specific and difficult to be found. >> >> As we need 3.3v logic, but able to work in 5v bus, I'm thinking about 5v >> tolerant standard logic as TI LVC or LVT. >> The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the >> problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only >> components, >> connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. >> So identifying one or maybe two codes would be enough for all the >> components needed for the board. >> >> The idea of using bare transistors seems to me too much simple. >> Not that it couldn't work, but it would be almost impossible to >> satisfy all >> the specifications of the bus in this way... unless you use a more >> complex >> circuit with precise current sources and resistors to grant correct >> voltage >> biases, impedances and slew rates, which in the end is a logic >> integrated >> circuit. >> >> Andrea >> > > As an electronics noob, I'm really waiting for somebody to publish > their findings on this, comprehensively, so I can steal their labour. > > Has anyone done so? Is anyone planning to do so? I know that this > topic flares up on the list every 6 months ago in a series of > disjointed posts and observations. The gold is hard to find > (especially for aforesaid noobs). > > --Toby > Toby, I've watched many flail on this when simple solutions work. They seem to read into the driver/receiver specs a lot of imagined should be x when its simple. The specs are those of Utilogic and TTL of the day. DEC buses relied on two things; pull-ups to assert the high voltage level and a strong pull down to ground at low cost. All of this was developed in the late 60s and early 70s. To add to that the idea of open collector was to prevent damage if two drivers asserted the same line. Also in some cases to allow wired OR logic. We forget that a transceiver in 1970 was the level of complex logic and the only thing more complex was a flipflop as around then the tech was not there for more than a handful of transistors on the die. By time the tech could do more the parts were firmly entrenched and provided the basic bits often needed. DEC always suggested their part for the base reason is they work, there were examples in use to study and internal engineering was expected to! That and if a customer needed DEC support it was easier. I keep my supply of those for board repair. For new boards I make for myself (QBUS or Omnibus) I use bog simple 74LS14, 74LS240, 74LS241, 74LS245 and occasionally a open collector part like 7438. The 3.3 volt problem is modern logic and not modern in conflict. The trick in engineering around that is to keep the interfaces limited to reduce the needed transitions back and forth. Allison Former MilRat From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 18:30:25 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:30:25 -0500 Subject: ASTEC 8151 PSU (TRS80, Osborne etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580D4811.3080401@gmail.com> On 10/23/2016 08:02 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Now that the bouncing has calmed down I've got a question about this here > triple output pretty ubiquitous power supply. This one had some burst caps > so naturally wasn't working and was probably why the machine it came out of > was taken out of use. > > I've replaced all of them because why not, along with the .1uF mains > filtering cap that would also burst at some point and I still get low output > on all rails. Low output in-circuit? If not, are you using a large enough dummy load (probably just necessary on whichever output rail is deemed to be the main one)? Without enough load the regulation on switchers often doesn't work, and low outputs are a typical result... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 23 19:00:30 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 01:00:30 +0100 Subject: ASTEC 8151 PSU (TRS80, Osborne etc) In-Reply-To: <580D4811.3080401@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 24/10/2016 00:30, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > On 10/23/2016 08:02 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> Now that the bouncing has calmed down I've got a question about this here >> triple output pretty ubiquitous power supply. This one had some burst caps >> so naturally wasn't working and was probably why the machine it came out of >> was taken out of use. >> >> I've replaced all of them because why not, along with the .1uF mains >> filtering cap that would also burst at some point and I still get low output >> on all rails. > > Low output in-circuit? If not, are you using a large enough dummy load > (probably just necessary on whichever output rail is deemed to be the main > one)? > > Without enough load the regulation on switchers often doesn't work, and low > outputs are a typical result... Yep, and I hear this all the time about Apple ][s, but the PSUs from the last few machines I've done have worked without a load, and these PSUs also normally work without load also. Maybe it's a US/UK thing. I'm learning as I go on.... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 23 20:11:24 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 21:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <029a01d22c8a$d6bd12b0$84373810$@net> Message-ID: <201610240111.VAA24521@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...anti-virus...] >> [...] > Just wondering are you guys not running AV SW on your old HW? I am not. But then, because of my interests, the old hardware I keep is stuff like Sun SPARCs that are powerful enough to run a real operating system. These are (a) inherently invulnerable to most of the malware (including viruses) out there because they're not x86 Windows and (b) difficult to attack with targeted malware because they are real OSes with real interprocess protection, file protection, and the like. Probably not impossible; all nontrivial software has bugs. But I have no reason to think I'm likely to be targeted by anyone with the resources (= skills, mostly) to effectively attack my OSes. And I'm familiar enough with their operation that most successful malware is likely to be noticed relatively soon. And if I am somehow targeted by the likes of letter agencies, there are much weaker links in the chains for them than the things malware attacks. And "AV SW", even if someone produced one that ran on what I run and I were willin gto run it, generally isn't going to notice custom-designed malware anyway. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 23 20:15:03 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 21:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > My favorite formatter was my S100 crate with CP/M, [it's] impossible > to give a single user OS without background processing a virus. I disagree. I see nothing about "a single-user OS without background processing" that would prevent a virus from infecting other programs, even including the OS, when it's run, and potentially doing something else as well. Perhaps you are using some meaning of "virus" other than "piece of software that infects other software to propagate itself"? That's the only meaning that makes any sense to me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 23 21:03:04 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 22:03:04 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> On 10/23/2016 09:15 PM, Mouse wrote: >> My favorite formatter was my S100 crate with CP/M, [it's] impossible >> to give a single user OS without background processing a virus. > I disagree. I see nothing about "a single-user OS without background > processing" that would prevent a virus from infecting other programs, > even including the OS, when it's run, and potentially doing something > else as well. > > Perhaps you are using some meaning of "virus" other than "piece of > software that infects other software to propagate itself"? That's the > only meaning that makes any sense to me. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Its highly unlikely as first it would have to install itself and do so without corrupting the OS. CP/M-80 is a machine monitor with a file system and lacking most of the usual read the disk and "do something" automation. The only automation in CP/M is logging a drive which is reading the directory and mapping used blocks. So the initial load would have to be performed by the user. Trogan maybe, social engineered for sure, virus no. The key is you have to actually execute a file for action to happen. In CP/M you can disk dump sectors and never execute them, formatting is even more benign, the disk is never read save for a post format verify. There is no boot block save for system tracks and even then the OS is not wired to write them without a utility so other than boot in rom(usually) its kinda hard to pollute the disk though powering off with it in the drive usually will kill a sector making it unreadable. There are many other OSs that equally as crude such as Northstar Dos or for that fact OS/8. Old machines do not evaluate like current winders, linux, OSX in that perspective. The extreme opposing end of the spectrum is a VAX running VMS/OVMS the level of protection is high enough that you would spend much time and effort to find the way to get something above the user account level. In that case you can pollute your self maybe share with friends assuming you don't user crash first. Allison From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 23 21:15:16 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 02:15:16 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users Message-ID: I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 old daughter was plotting a cat face. https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal computer, and find additional resources. Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime clock and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE interface working. There was a DC300 tape in the machine: biorithm craps blackjack artillery tanks weatherwar The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will transplant the tape. Any resources will be welcome! Randy From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 24 06:12:50 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:12:50 +0200 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <20161019004236.EC11E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161019004236.EC11E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6a648c49-932d-a0ab-a81f-0792bdeb030b@hachti.de> On 10/19/2016 02:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Glen Slick > > >> Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. > > > there was a taker for that 11/35 at $5000 today.... > > Smack me with a wet halibut. They must not have seen the original listing? > > I can't come up with any other explanation why someone would pass up a chance > to buy it for $3.5K, and pay $1.5 more for the priviledge... Was it really sold? I can't figure that out from here. Only "listing has ended". And when I try to search for it, the website doesn't show it :-( From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 07:51:04 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 08:51:04 -0400 Subject: MSCP - was Re: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <9CF7A17B-AF0B-425B-80F9-C7D8B1090FD1@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 7:39 AM, allison wrote: > > On 10/22/16 6:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-10-22 4:08 PM, allison wrote: >>> ... >>> FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software >>> protocol MSCP >>> as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. >> >> It's been implemented in simh, afaik. Its reputation is a little more imposing than the reality. >> ... > That may be so but putting it on a board to accept a IDE drive is far more useful to us that run hardware. > Why IDE, It can use CF and I also have a large supply of drives from 20-512mb. Fortunately I have a > large supply of MFM drives and two SCSI controllers for the larger supply of SCSI drives. However, I > feel I'm the exception and many Qbus users are not so fortunate. > > Where is the source code to for that? That is the drive side of that. There's pdp11_rq.c. If you were to do a bus interface with microprocessor behind it for the protocol work, that code could be adapted for the job. And that would be the obvious way to build an MSCP controller -- that's how MSCP was designed to be implemented and how it was done in DEC's controllers. A BeagleBone Black or the like would be more than ample for the job, given that early implementations such as the UDA50 were done with 2901 bitslice engines (and very odd looking microcode). paul From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 07:51:12 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 14:51:12 +0200 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <6a648c49-932d-a0ab-a81f-0792bdeb030b@hachti.de> References: <20161019004236.EC11E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6a648c49-932d-a0ab-a81f-0792bdeb030b@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20161024125112.GB17430@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 01:12:50PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > On 10/19/2016 02:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Glen Slick > > > > >> Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. > > > > > there was a taker for that 11/35 at $5000 today.... > > > >Smack me with a wet halibut. They must not have seen the original listing? > > > >I can't come up with any other explanation why someone would pass up a chance > >to buy it for $3.5K, and pay $1.5 more for the priviledge... > > > Was it really sold? I can't figure that out from here. Only "listing has > ended". And when I try to search for it, the website doesn't show it :-( > Looks like it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-35-COMPUTER-/142146207101? (ebay will usually tell you "the seller has relisted this item" and if you click it you get the above url) /P From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 24 08:05:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/35 on eBait Message-ID: <20161024130546.E306818C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Was it really sold? I can't figure that out from here. Only "listing > has ended". And when I try to search for it, the website doesn't show > it :-( ??? If you go to the listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/142146207101 the image has 'Sold' emblazoned across it. And if you click on that image, it takes you to the original listing, which says "Sold for: US$5,000". Noel From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 08:08:31 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:08:31 -0400 Subject: 11/35 on eBait In-Reply-To: <20161024125112.GB17430@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161019004236.EC11E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6a648c49-932d-a0ab-a81f-0792bdeb030b@hachti.de> <20161024125112.GB17430@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <89268bd6-8ed9-19a1-077b-9dcbfdfc134e@verizon.net> On 10/24/16 8:51 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 01:12:50PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> >> On 10/19/2016 02:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Glen Slick >>> >>> >> Went unsold at $3500. Relisted, this time at $5000. >>> >>> > there was a taker for that 11/35 at $5000 today.... >>> >>> Smack me with a wet halibut. They must not have seen the original listing? >>> >>> I can't come up with any other explanation why someone would pass up a chance >>> to buy it for $3.5K, and pay $1.5 more for the priviledge... >> >> Was it really sold? I can't figure that out from here. Only "listing has >> ended". And when I try to search for it, the website doesn't show it :-( >> > Looks like it: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-35-COMPUTER-/142146207101? > > (ebay will usually tell you "the seller has relisted this item" and if > you click it you get the above url) > > /P I peeked at it and who knows on that... Along with that there was a Robin [vt180] so they claim for 262$ save for its missing the keyboard, disk drives and cables and compared to mine it looks rough. The funny part is they claim it works without keyboard and disks it can't be tested except for as a vt100 as it will default to that. The other was a 11/23 or a box marked as such untested and unknown what boards if any are in it. I have two of them sitting... maybe time to sell. Ebait, still full of hilarity. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 11:34:26 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 12:34:26 -0400 Subject: MSCP - was Re: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: <9CF7A17B-AF0B-425B-80F9-C7D8B1090FD1@comcast.net> References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> <9CF7A17B-AF0B-425B-80F9-C7D8B1090FD1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/24/16 8:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 7:39 AM, allison wrote: >> >> On 10/22/16 6:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 2016-10-22 4:08 PM, allison wrote: >>>> ... >>>> FYI I have never heard of any one recreating the RQDX1/2/3 software >>>> protocol MSCP >>>> as it was nontrivial, proprietary, and copyrighted. >>> It's been implemented in simh, afaik. Its reputation is a little more imposing than the reality. >>> ... >> That may be so but putting it on a board to accept a IDE drive is far more useful to us that run hardware. >> Why IDE, It can use CF and I also have a large supply of drives from 20-512mb. Fortunately I have a >> large supply of MFM drives and two SCSI controllers for the larger supply of SCSI drives. However, I >> feel I'm the exception and many Qbus users are not so fortunate. >> >> Where is the source code to for that? That is the drive side of that. > There's pdp11_rq.c. If you were to do a bus interface with microprocessor behind it for the protocol work, that code could be adapted for the job. And that would be the obvious way to build an MSCP controller -- that's how MSCP was designed to be implemented and how it was done in DEC's controllers. A BeagleBone Black or the like would be more than ample for the job, given that early implementations such as the UDA50 were done with 2901 bitslice engines (and very odd looking microcode). > > paul And the RQDX1/2/3 used T11 for the job so its not that intense save for speed. The other part of it is much of the code is likely the interface to the MFM disk and thats speed intensive and likely more hardware than software. I'll have to scratch at the code and see. Allison > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 12:10:21 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:10:21 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202d1c4c-1339-d78f-473b-a869fc345996@verizon.net> On 10/23/16 2:50 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > surely the old transceivers are the most compatible solution, however you > still need to convert the voltages back and forth... > Plus the solution is not the cheaper, and a little uncomfortable too, as > you need to find these old chips, hoping not to buy fake chinese duplicates > (it happened to me more time unfortunately). > > So I was searching a solution with modern components, but not using > components too much specific and difficult to be found. > > As we need 3.3v logic, but able to work in 5v bus, I'm thinking about 5v > tolerant standard logic as TI LVC or LVT. > The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the > problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, > connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. > So identifying one or maybe two codes would be enough for all the > components needed for the board. > > The idea of using bare transistors seems to me too much simple. > Not that it couldn't work, but it would be almost impossible to satisfy all > the specifications of the bus in this way... unless you use a more complex > circuit with precise current sources and resistors to grant correct voltage > biases, impedances and slew rates, which in the end is a logic integrated > circuit. To the last point.... The output of the DEC drivers are simply bare transistors that had to meet a minimum spec for saturation current/voltage and minimum speed for the votlage and power of the device. Modern transistor arrays would be the first choice for that. To make it more complex than that is unrealistic and misses what those old devices were (hint: dirt simple, and somewhat slow, best of the norm for the day). Just look at the internal circuits for the devices They are not complex and look much like open collector TTL on the bus side. They did not include current sources, and bias systems. They are not impedence controlled nor slew rate controlled save for they were fast for the day and there were slower! Line receivers any of the devices like LS241 or LS241 have hysteris on the inputs and are a good match to acceptable bus voltages. I believe there are CMOS equivilents for that as well. I've used the bipolar LS TTL parts rather than CMOS as they have immunity to latchup and are somewhat more resistant to ESD. Allison > > Andrea > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 12:37:14 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:37:14 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> On 10/23/16 2:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/23/16 11:50 AM, shadoooo wrote: > >> The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the >> problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, >> connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. >> > The reason for using the old parts is the logic thresholds are unique to > the Unibus to handle worst-case bus loading and the termination voltage they > used. > > The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? The key was limited leakage current and input current to not load the bus by inserting or removing current from a node (there is a specified maximum in per node and total nodes). That cover input to card devices and bus driver leakage. Logic low voltage is typical of TTL and the driver device has to sink that current and meet that value. Logic High was set by the terminator devices at 3.36V but the threshold is lower based on the bus receivers. By late 1970 it was an easy spec to meet, When first used (pdp8e) it was new and the ICs were not so great with leakage current and output device saturation current. Every time this comes up the world is supposed to stop if not met. The LSI-11 bus (qbus) was actually harder as it was 120 ohm terminated and HeathKit did it with common TTL and the CPU was DEC standard LSI-11 and it worked out to 18 slot backplanes. Allison From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:28:05 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:28:05 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation Message-ID: Hi Noel, >> Any chance it could be put into 'production'? Sure, if there is interest, I could make a run of boards. >> Also, what FPGA board are you using? I assume it's one that has an SD >> card socket or something, for actually storing the bits on? My project is just an interface board for an existing RL02 emulator project: www.pdp11gy.com There are a multiple project revisions listed on the pdp11gy.com site that use different Altera FPGA dev boards: DE0 Nano, DE0 Nano SOC, and BeMicro CV. I was planning to use a Terasic DE0 Nano dev board since these boards can be found on eBay from $50 to $100. The DE0 nano does not have an micro-SD card socket which is why there is a socket on my interface board. http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/RL02 The DE0 Nano SOC, and BeMicro CV dev boards have micro-SD card sockets, so if you used one of those, then you would not need to populate the micro-SD socket on the interface board. According to the author of the www.pdp11gy.com RL02 project, the 40-pin headers on DE0 Nano, DE0 Nano SOC, and BeMicro CV are compatible, so you could use my interface board with any of these boards. Regards, Scott From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 24 08:34:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers (was Re: Unibus disk controller with modern storage) Message-ID: <20161024133433.C219618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: David Bridgham > Just the bus interface takes over half the area of a dual-height board! In part because the level converters are SMD, and we had to mount them on (modified) wide DIP carriers to use them in a wire-wrap board. > I've played around with laying out what might be the production board > ... and I've got it down to a row of 8641 bus transceivers and a row or > two of the level-converter chips. > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/proto-pcb.jpg For those looking at that picture, it's not our current plan for 'producton' QSIC's; the one in the picture uses a daughter-card with an FPGA on it, but that makes the card to high to fit into a single slot. So the current plan is to do a card with an FPGA on it directly. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 11:01:50 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 12:01:50 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2016, at 2:50 PM, shadoooo wrote: > > ... > The idea of using bare transistors seems to me too much simple. > Not that it couldn't work, but it would be almost impossible to satisfy all > the specifications of the bus in this way... unless you use a more complex > circuit with precise current sources and resistors to grant correct voltage > biases, impedances and slew rates, which in the end is a logic integrated > circuit. I don't know about the receiver part, but I'd expect that the drivers could very easily be done with a simple transistor circuit. After all, that's what an open collector (or open drain) driver is, in essence. And the spec is quite straightforward, it demands an adequate current sinking capacity which is easy to meet. As for slew rates, unless you have antique transistors, that's not going to be an issue given that you meet the current sink spec; the slew rate of an OC circuit is determined by the system capacitance and the sink current of the driver. Some fiddling with SPICE should yield simple answers here. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 11:46:57 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 12:46:57 -0400 Subject: MSCP - was Re: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> <1dffa8b0-bf37-3582-58df-c815063e239b@telegraphics.com.au> <9CF7A17B-AF0B-425B-80F9-C7D8B1090FD1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4865C4ED-2DA2-461A-BE93-1F03C680700C@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 12:34 PM, allison wrote: > >> ... > And the RQDX1/2/3 used T11 for the job so its not that intense save for speed. > The other part of it is much of the code is likely the interface to the MFM disk and thats > speed intensive and likely more hardware than software. FWIW, microcontroller based disk controllers existed well before MSCP. For example, the CDC 7054 disk controller (for 844 disks, which are basically RP04s, among other things) uses a small 16 bit computer for the top level control, with a magic data mover engine to construct the detailed bit-level track / sector layout. If you needed a better disk controller, you could modify the firmware (it was downloaded to the disk controller at system boot), though not many people were skilled enough to do so. But I worked with one, the famous Don Lee at CERL (PLATO development) at the University of Illinois. paul From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 24 11:58:08 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 12:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: > But, I was explicitly referring to the time BEFORE OS-X! (<1999?) > Assholes who proclaimed themselves to be "experts" kept pushing our college > administration to SWITCH ALL of our our student computer labs from PC to Mac, > mostly using the LIE that "Macs are immune to viruses". Jumping in here late. When I was much younger I remember being on BBSes that were H/P/A/V (Hacking, Phreaking, Anarchy and Viruses.) The first 3 just being old textfiles that are lovingly preserved by people like Jason Scott. We had a local guy that shook up the DOS Virus group NuKE. Later he became a coworker. Early Macs definitely had viruses, a few that I got from thrift stores still have the viruses on them. I don't think there is any memory protection at all. Software selection for MacOS was pretty crappy, and it was hard to get under the hood. So protecting yourself from them would be very difficult on the Mac platform. All the file fork BS, dev tools hard to get. Also, just like the iPhone pretty much everything was shareware/commercial, less community stuff than the PC. I feel bad for the people that grew up on MAcOS versus MS-DOS. I *DO* remember that in the local BBS wars, people who were toying with MS-DOS viruses would make them then submit them to the AV companies to get them on "the list." The huge list of viruses that the software would defend against. But in reality, they were never in the wild. I think there was at least 8 of these from one author who was just a bored Navy guy. So take the # of viruses with a grain of salt. But BBSes did have collections of them, and I'm sure you can still find the huge zip files of them somewhere. There were utilities like Virus Creation Lab that had checkboxes and would crap out assembly code or something that you would then take the output over to MASM or the Borland Assembler and compile. So who knows how many of the DOS viruses came from this. I remember doing a lot of BBSing, and trading stuff with friends and never saw a virus. There was a case where the computers at Sears had the stoned virus or something and everyone in the area was excited to go over there and get a disk infected with it. Of course BBSes always had the virus scan door. Ahhh fprot. And also the zip files that never stop expanding :-) Oh and the local guy that was involved at a high level with the DOS Virus group, he said at a party that had a bunch of DOS virus authors John MacAffee was there partying with them. No proof and he probably wouldn't admit saying that today (was told to me in the early 2000s). From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Oct 24 12:28:17 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:28:17 -0700 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <043d01d22e1c$035e9d60$0a1bd820$@bettercomputing.net> Can't see the video (access denied).. but that looked like an exceptionally nice unit, with the stand to boot! Some day I'd like to have one of those to go with my Tektronix 6800 board bucket.. but shipping will always be an issue. If you decide to put a video up somewhere public please let me know.. love watching vids of these ones in action. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy Dawson Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 7:15 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tek 40xx computer users I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 old daughter was plotting a cat face. https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal computer, and find additional resources. Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime clock and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE interface working. There was a DC300 tape in the machine: biorithm craps blackjack artillery tanks weatherwar The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will transplant the tape. Any resources will be welcome! Randy From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Oct 24 12:42:15 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:42:15 -0700 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: <043d01d22e1c$035e9d60$0a1bd820$@bettercomputing.net> References: <043d01d22e1c$035e9d60$0a1bd820$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: The ROM cart your going to want to get never left Tek, it had the capacity to hold all the packs, another one is very high (for a 6800) performance graphics. To use multiple ROMs you will need a 4051 Toaster. That's what we called it. Can't remember if it was a product or not. I may have a couple original packs if I find them I'll extract the contents and put them on bitsavers On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > Can't see the video (access denied).. but that looked like an exceptionally > nice unit, with the stand to boot! Some day I'd like to have one of those > to go with my Tektronix 6800 board bucket.. but shipping will always be an > issue. > > If you decide to put a video up somewhere public please let me know.. love > watching vids of these ones in action. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy > Dawson > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 7:15 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Tek 40xx computer users > > I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it > works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 > old > daughter was plotting a cat face. > > > https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ > > > I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal > computer, and find additional resources. > > > Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? > > > Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime > clock > and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. > > > I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE > interface working. > > > There was a DC300 tape in the machine: > > > biorithm > > craps > > blackjack > > artillery > > tanks > > weatherwar > > > The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will > transplant the tape. > > > Any resources will be welcome! > > > Randy > > > > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Oct 24 12:58:42 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:58:42 -0700 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: <043d01d22e1c$035e9d60$0a1bd820$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Start with this http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?33684-Tek-4051-BASIC-Simulator Read the thread carefully, forget about the threads title/subject and you will get close to all the information you need On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > The ROM cart your going to want to get never left Tek, it had the capacity > to hold all the packs, another one is very high (for a 6800) performance > graphics. > > To use multiple ROMs you will need a 4051 Toaster. That's what we called > it. Can't remember if it was a product or not. > > I may have a couple original packs if I find them I'll extract the > contents and put them on bitsavers > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Brad H bettercomputing.net> wrote: > >> Can't see the video (access denied).. but that looked like an >> exceptionally >> nice unit, with the stand to boot! Some day I'd like to have one of those >> to go with my Tektronix 6800 board bucket.. but shipping will always be an >> issue. >> >> If you decide to put a video up somewhere public please let me know.. love >> watching vids of these ones in action. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy >> Dawson >> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 7:15 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Subject: Tek 40xx computer users >> >> I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it >> works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 >> old >> daughter was plotting a cat face. >> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ >> >> >> I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal >> computer, and find additional resources. >> >> >> Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? >> >> >> Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime >> clock >> and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. >> >> >> I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE >> interface working. >> >> >> There was a DC300 tape in the machine: >> >> >> biorithm >> >> craps >> >> blackjack >> >> artillery >> >> tanks >> >> weatherwar >> >> >> The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will >> transplant the tape. >> >> >> Any resources will be welcome! >> >> >> Randy >> >> >> >> >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 24 13:08:48 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:08:48 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <202d1c4c-1339-d78f-473b-a869fc345996@verizon.net> References: <202d1c4c-1339-d78f-473b-a869fc345996@verizon.net> Message-ID: having half of this conversation not making it from cctech to cctalk is really starting to piss me off -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: DEC bus transceivers Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:10:21 -0400 From: allison Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts On 10/23/16 2:50 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > surely the old transceivers are the most compatible solution, however you > still need to convert the voltages back and forth... > Plus the solution is not the cheaper, and a little uncomfortable too, as > you need to find these old chips, hoping not to buy fake chinese duplicates > (it happened to me more time unfortunately). > > So I was searching a solution with modern components, but not using > components too much specific and difficult to be found. > > As we need 3.3v logic, but able to work in 5v bus, I'm thinking about 5v > tolerant standard logic as TI LVC or LVT. > The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the > problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, > connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. > So identifying one or maybe two codes would be enough for all the > components needed for the board. > > The idea of using bare transistors seems to me too much simple. > Not that it couldn't work, but it would be almost impossible to satisfy all > the specifications of the bus in this way... unless you use a more complex > circuit with precise current sources and resistors to grant correct voltage > biases, impedances and slew rates, which in the end is a logic integrated > circuit. To the last point.... The output of the DEC drivers are simply bare transistors that had to meet a minimum spec for saturation current/voltage and minimum speed for the votlage and power of the device. Modern transistor arrays would be the first choice for that. To make it more complex than that is unrealistic and misses what those old devices were (hint: dirt simple, and somewhat slow, best of the norm for the day). Just look at the internal circuits for the devices They are not complex and look much like open collector TTL on the bus side. They did not include current sources, and bias systems. They are not impedence controlled nor slew rate controlled save for they were fast for the day and there were slower! Line receivers any of the devices like LS241 or LS241 have hysteris on the inputs and are a good match to acceptable bus voltages. I believe there are CMOS equivilents for that as well. I've used the bipolar LS TTL parts rather than CMOS as they have immunity to latchup and are somewhat more resistant to ESD. Allison > > Andrea > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 24 13:09:20 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:09:20 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> References: <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5c48ca8b-4f91-1bbd-65be-9bac98ef88b8@bitsavers.org> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: DEC bus transceivers Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:37:14 -0400 From: allison Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts On 10/23/16 2:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/23/16 11:50 AM, shadoooo wrote: > >> The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the >> problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, >> connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. >> > The reason for using the old parts is the logic thresholds are unique to > the Unibus to handle worst-case bus loading and the termination voltage they > used. > > The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? The key was limited leakage current and input current to not load the bus by inserting or removing current from a node (there is a specified maximum in per node and total nodes). That cover input to card devices and bus driver leakage. Logic low voltage is typical of TTL and the driver device has to sink that current and meet that value. Logic High was set by the terminator devices at 3.36V but the threshold is lower based on the bus receivers. By late 1970 it was an easy spec to meet, When first used (pdp8e) it was new and the ICs were not so great with leakage current and output device saturation current. Every time this comes up the world is supposed to stop if not met. The LSI-11 bus (qbus) was actually harder as it was 120 ohm terminated and HeathKit did it with common TTL and the CPU was DEC standard LSI-11 and it worked out to 18 slot backplanes. Allison From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 24 13:13:23 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:13:23 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f 9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <02B299C5-B5F3-4145-B16E-23502C13AC13@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 10:37 AM, allison wrote: > > On 10/23/16 2:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 10/23/16 11:50 AM, shadoooo wrote: >> >>> The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the >>> problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only components, >>> connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional pins. >>> >> The reason for using the old parts is the logic thresholds are unique to >> the Unibus to handle worst-case bus loading and the termination voltage they >> used. >> >> > The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? > > The key was limited leakage current and input current to not load the bus by inserting or removing > current from a node (there is a specified maximum in per node and total nodes). That cover input > to card devices and bus driver leakage. > > Logic low voltage is typical of TTL and the driver device has to sink that current and meet that value. > Logic High was set by the terminator devices at 3.36V but the threshold is lower based on the bus > receivers. > > By late 1970 it was an easy spec to meet, When first used (pdp8e) it was new and the ICs > were not so great with leakage current and output device saturation current. > > Every time this comes up the world is supposed to stop if not met. The LSI-11 bus (qbus) > was actually harder as it was 120 ohm terminated and HeathKit did it with common TTL > and the CPU was DEC standard LSI-11 and it worked out to 18 slot backplanes. > > The biggest concern is when interfacing to UNIBUS. In the PDP-11 UNIBUS Design Description document on Bitsavers, page 4-1 indicates what the Unibus interface chips are and what are *not* recommended (8640, 8641 and 8881 are the only ones recommended). There are a number of rules that must be adhered to when building out a Unibus system. These include: Maximum cable length must be < 50? Maximum DC loading < 20 Maximum lumped loading < 20 There are rules where cable lengths must be *increased* to avoid reflections. A single Unibus can be divided into multiple segments. Each segment must adhere to the above rules, so you can see that a Unibus can be quite large. For example, my PDP-11/40 resides in 2 BA11-F boxes (23? tall) and are fully populated with Unibus backplanes (5 9 slot backplanes each) with a BA11-15 (15? cable) connecting the two. My point here is that the Unibus has a very different electrical environment than Q-bus or Omnibus and what may work for them will probably have troubles on a Unibus. TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 24 13:20:46 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: from "ethan@757.org" at "Oct 24, 16 12:58:08 pm" Message-ID: <201610241820.u9OIKkva5374146@floodgap.com> > Early Macs definitely had viruses, a few that I got from thrift stores > still have the viruses on them. I don't think there is any memory > protection at all. Software selection for MacOS was pretty crappy, and it > was hard to get under the hood. So protecting yourself from them would be > very difficult on the Mac platform. All the file fork BS, dev tools hard > to get. Also, just like the iPhone pretty much everything was > shareware/commercial, less community stuff than the PC. I feel bad for the > people that grew up on MAcOS versus MS-DOS. Lest this turn into another chapter in Mac vs DOS: - Yes, classic Macs did get viruses. But as a user of a classic Mac since 1987, I think I encountered one exactly once and my experience was not unusual. They just weren't all that common and nearly everyone ran Virex anyway until Mac OS 8 days when the platform had little or no relevance to virus authors. - You may not have had a command line, but it was perfectly possible to get under the hood. You could mess with resources in MacsBug or ResEdit, shuffle INITs and CDEVs, whatever you like. Such tools were easy to get and freely available. Whether you *liked* the resource/data fork split is a matter of preference but they certainly didn't prohibit mucking around by the knowledgeable and the structured nature of the resource fork in some ways makes it easier. - No, pretty much everything was *not* just shareware/commercial. Look at UMich or Info-Mac for a nearly total refutation of your statement. Freeware existed in quantity commensurate with the platform's penetration and Apple certainly did not discourage it in those days. I have mirrors of them which you can check out: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/archive -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin -------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 13:24:56 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I *DO* remember that in the local BBS wars, people who were toying with > MS-DOS viruses would make them then submit them to the AV companies to get > them on "the list." The huge list of viruses that the software would defend > against. But in reality, they were never in the wild. At the time of the "Michelangelo" panic, it did not appear to be in the wild. (ZERO of the "hundreds" of disks destroyed during scanning at UC Berkeley student computer labs were retained for analysis) The AV companies had copies, and they provided them to each other and to the media. It wasn't until later that copies started to leak out into the wild. In fact, we speculated that what was being found were wannabe variants, created from "Stoned", and INSPIRED by and after the panic. The ones that we finally ran into were blatently obviously simply slightly modified versions of "Stoned", but THAT aspect was never mentioned by the AV companies nor the media during the panic. > Oh and the local guy that was involved at a high level with the DOS Virus > group, he said at a party that had a bunch of DOS virus authors John > MacAffee was there partying with them. No proof and he probably wouldn't > admit saying that today (was told to me in the early 2000s). Wouldn't be surprising. I knew one fellow, with journalistic ties, who partied with both groups. He threw a Comdex party at the Landmark Hotel with a lot of strange people. There were rumors at the time, that McAfee was involved in creating "Michelangelo" and the panic. But, until there is some evidence, I would give him the benefit of the doubt; and there's no way to ask him now (he's currently a murder suspect fugitive). Creation of the "Michelangelo" variants that we saw did not require any expertise, just some disassembly of "Stoned" and some trivial patching. Creation of the PANIC was an impressive feat of showmanship. THAT (creation of the "Michelangelo" panic), and Harold Hill of Meredith Wilson's "Music Man" ("You've got TROUBLE, right here in River City") really helped train a lot of people how to make money off of Y2K. The college probably spent more than $300 average PER MACHINE testing and preparing for Y2K! (Since there were friends and relatives of upper officials working with the contractors, exact amounts spent were not clearly revealed) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Mon Oct 24 14:48:43 2016 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 21:48:43 +0200 Subject: RK8E Plessey Clone and Data Break Error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <697840db-e796-0b0a-52e7-8b215041cdfd@familie-rauhut.eu> As repl to my own post... The problem was the current adress register. One of three 74161 binary counters was bad. After replaceing it, RK8E Diskless Controlltest working fine Marco Am 18.10.2016 um 21:55 schrieb Marco Rauhut: > Hello all together, > > i restore a rk05 disk drive in combination with an Plessey RK8E clone > controller. > Now the drive itself is restored, and the connection cables are built. > > My problem is that the rk8e diskless controll test (dhrka) fails with > an data break error. The diskless controlltest > is running throug all register and also the databuffer test. But in > the first data break routine it fails. > > Then i toggled in the Example program from the maintanence vol.III, > Single Cycle Data Break Transfers (Write than Read). > With this program the content of the SwitchRegister is written through > the data buffer registers and read back to the memory. > Afterwards it is compared to the original SR content. I found out that > the routine is running if SR=7777. Deeper investigation results that > the bits 0, 1, 4, 6 and 9 have to be one`s to run the routine. The > other SR bits are switchable while running the program. > > Next thing i did is trying read data with futil. i could read data > form the disk. But with many read errors. > Because i do not know anything about the allignment between my > diskpack and the drive, i formated the pack > with the RK8E Formater (dhrkd). The write part of the format is > running. In the disk checking part the formater fails. > > Anyway. Then i used futil and scanned the whole surface off the > diskpack. On the whole disk are 5 bad blocks left. > > Now i am able to dump blocks from the disk. But it seems that no > matter witch block i dump out, it is the same block > all over the disk. Afterwards i tried to modifie some words in block > 0. And this is working. When i write the modified block i see the > modification also in every other block of the disk. > > Have anyone the lightning idea? > > On a Google search i found a post of Rick Bensene from 2014 on this > list witch described a similiar problem. > In this discussion where talked about an spike in the load signal of > the current address register. > I checked that and see that this was not my problem. > > Thanks in advance > > Marco Rauhut > From dab at froghouse.org Mon Oct 24 14:55:09 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:55:09 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/2016 12:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't know about the receiver part, but I'd expect that the drivers could very easily be done with a simple transistor circuit. Agreed. However ... > As for slew rates, unless you have antique transistors, that's not going to be an issue given that you meet the current sink spec; the slew rate of an OC circuit is determined by the system capacitance and the sink current of the driver. I think you read this part backwards. The slew rate requirement is not a minimum slew rate but a maximum one. That is, any modern transistor (probably ancient ones too) will be way too fast. You have to do something to slow it down. Still, I think this one is easily met as it's just a series resistor on the gate of the driver MOSFET working against the gate capacitance. Some FPGAs have current limiting on their output which may obviate the need for the resistor even. The receiver though, that one takes a little more thought. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 24 15:17:57 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:17:57 -0700 Subject: RK8E Plessey Clone and Data Break Error In-Reply-To: <697840db-e796-0b0a-52e7-8b215041cdfd@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <697840db-e796-0b0a-52e7-8b215041cdfd@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: <018782ab-258d-c087-57bf-ea74bffd6d48@bitsavers.org> good job! On 10/24/16 12:48 PM, Marco Rauhut wrote: > As repl to my own post... > > The problem was the current adress register. One of three 74161 binary counters was bad. After replaceing it, RK8E > Diskless Controlltest working fine > From dab at froghouse.org Mon Oct 24 15:18:05 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 16:18:05 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: > The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:23:57 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:23:57 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <077201d22d46$f7ad0e00$e7072a00$@com> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <077201d22d46$f7ad0e00$e7072a00$@com> Message-ID: On 23 October 2016 at 18:03, Electronics Plus wrote: > I used to have factory original CD install disks from Zip drives, but I threw them all out, because they were all infected with viruses. Iomega was kind enough to send me clean install disks, after I mailed them back one of the infected disks. That prompted a huge recall, back in the 90s. Wow! I never heard about that one! I did hear of other such instances, though. And more recently, at-the-factory-infected USB sticks and digital picture frames. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 15:30:11 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 16:30:11 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 3:55 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > > On 10/24/2016 12:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I don't know about the receiver part, but I'd expect that the drivers could very easily be done with a simple transistor circuit. > > Agreed. However ... > >> As for slew rates, unless you have antique transistors, that's not going to be an issue given that you meet the current sink spec; the slew rate of an OC circuit is determined by the system capacitance and the sink current of the driver. > > I think you read this part backwards. The slew rate requirement is not > a minimum slew rate but a maximum one. That is, any modern transistor > (probably ancient ones too) will be way too fast. You have to do > something to slow it down. Still, I think this one is easily met as > it's just a series resistor on the gate of the driver MOSFET working > against the gate capacitance. Some FPGAs have current limiting on their > output which may obviate the need for the resistor even. I don't see any max slew rate spec in the driver specs in the peripherals handbook. paul From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:30:59 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:30:59 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 23 October 2016 at 19:12, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, I was explicitly referring to the time BEFORE OS-X! (<1999?) Ahh, well, that's entirely fair then. > Assholes who proclaimed themselves to be "experts" kept pushing our college > administration to SWITCH ALL of our our student computer labs from PC to > Mac, mostly using the LIE that "Macs are immune to viruses". That's... well, yeah, asshattish. Anyone who knew the Mac knew of viruses. They were a real problem. > But, we stuck to 80-90% PCs. > 1) We had a dozen Macs (mostly SE?) and 5 dozen PCs. We were getting higher > incidence of viurses on the Macs than the PCs, due to student disks. Can easily believe that. > 2) At the time, certain key pieces of software that we needed (such as COBOL > and FORTRAN compilers) were not as readily available on Mac. [Nod] Or they were seriously expensive. > 3) We had only needed a tiny handful of machines with performance. > PC-DOS, Win3.1, and Win95 on 386SX were PERFECTLY suited for homework of > programming classes. (small homework assignments, NOT all day production!) Win 3.1 on a 386SX, no problem. Win 95 on a 386SX: sheesh. You'd need the patience of a saint. Early in my time at PC Pro magazine, I actually benchmarked 95 versus Wfwg on a 386 with 4MB. We had to hunt for a PC that old, and borrowed it from a friend of the editor. Amazingly, app loading was a hair quicker -- 95 had smarter cache management. But it wasn't fast. > Think about anybody who would claim to NEED performance to write "Hello, > world". And low performance created BETTER sort programs, by NOT giving the > opportunity to "throw hardware at it". True. > Even the "remedial job training for the digital sweatshop" classes [Chuckle] > (WordPervert, Lotus, dBase, Weird, Office) [Guffaw] > were well suited for a large > number of 386SX machines. Yep, guess so! > 4) At the time, one dozen Macs cost us as much as five dozen PCs! List > prices for Macs might have been close to list prices of OEM PCs from IBM, > but we were willing to run cheap generic clones, and assemble them > ourselves. THAT was significant, when you have a lab FULL of students (and > rarely a waiting queue). Oh my yes. And they were, $ for $, significantly more expensive in the UK than Stateside. > But, by about the time that OS-X came out, enough students had their own > machines that we no longer needed as many. > Our administration ceased having the Computer Information Systems department > run the labs for Business, Math, etc., and hired IT (mostly grossly > incompetents from "trade schools"). They were no longer "our labs". > Machines started being down for a week or two for a bad floppy or need for > Windoze reinstallation, waiting for IT to get around to them. :-( C21 IT. Everyone raves about it. I'm considered a weirdo for saying some things were better before. > They hired an extremely expensive outside firm ("because they are experts", > and because the college "IT" had no idea how to do it!) to run a public > domain test program for Y2K compatibility, and dumpstered the few machines > that would have had to have their date manually set [ONCE!] after Y2K. Well, TBH, I did some of that consultancy myself. I didn't dump any kit though. Some clients took the chance to refresh their whole office, and I made sure the old boxes were re-homed or given to charity. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:33:44 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:33:44 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 24 October 2016 at 03:15, Mouse wrote: > > I disagree. I see nothing about "a single-user OS without background > processing" that would prevent a virus from infecting other programs, > even including the OS, when it's run, and potentially doing something > else as well. Exactly. This. I agree. MS-DOS was a single-user OS without background processing, but it had legions of viruses. I don't think CP/M had TSRs as such... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#TSR_.28Terminate-and-Stay-Resident.29_programs ... but that doesn't mean it was totally impossible to get into RAM and stay there, does it? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 24 15:35:02 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:35:02 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 3:55 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >> >> On 10/24/2016 12:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> I don't know about the receiver part, but I'd expect that the drivers could very easily be done with a simple transistor circuit. >> >> Agreed. However ... >> >>> As for slew rates, unless you have antique transistors, that's not going to be an issue given that you meet the current sink spec; the slew rate of an OC circuit is determined by the system capacitance and the sink current of the driver. >> >> I think you read this part backwards. The slew rate requirement is not >> a minimum slew rate but a maximum one. That is, any modern transistor >> (probably ancient ones too) will be way too fast. You have to do >> something to slow it down. Still, I think this one is easily met as >> it's just a series resistor on the gate of the driver MOSFET working >> against the gate capacitance. Some FPGAs have current limiting on their >> output which may obviate the need for the resistor even. > > I don't see any max slew rate spec in the driver specs in the peripherals handbook. > OK, I guess my last email didn?t make it. It appears to me that the rise time is set at 25ns. You need to look at the PDP-11 UNIBUS Design Description document on Bitsavers. Firstly, in section 4-1, it specifies which chips to use and recommends not using a whole list of other chips. The only recommended chips are: 8640, 8641 and 8881. There are a number of rules that must be adhered to when building out a Unibus system. These include: Maximum cable length must be < 50? Maximum DC loading < 20 Maximum lumped loading < 20 There are rules where cable lengths must be *increased* to avoid reflections. A single Unibus can be divided into multiple segments. Each segment must adhere to the above rules, so you can see that a Unibus can be quite large. For example, my PDP-11/40 resides in 2 BA11-F boxes (23? tall) and are fully populated with Unibus backplanes (5 9 slot backplanes each) with a BA11-15 (15? cable) connecting the two. My point here is that the Unibus has a very different electrical environment than Q-bus or Omnibus and what may work for them will probably have troubles on a Unibus. TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:35:37 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:35:37 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 24 October 2016 at 04:03, allison wrote: > Its highly unlikely as first it would have to install itself and do so > without corrupting the OS. > CP/M-80 is a machine monitor with a file system and lacking most of the > usual > read the disk and "do something" automation. The only automation in CP/M > is logging a drive which is reading the directory and mapping used blocks. > So the initial load would have to be performed by the user. Trogan maybe, > social engineered for sure, virus no. It's been discussed and there are /claims/ they existed... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.cpm/V1-zYzA6Uzg -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:36:25 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:36:25 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On 24 October 2016 at 18:58, wrote: > Software selection for MacOS was pretty crappy, and it was hard to get under > the hood. That's not my experience, TBH. Big, great S/W range, shareware and PD, hard_er_ but still possible to get under the hood. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:41:07 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:41:07 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <201610241820.u9OIKkva5374146@floodgap.com> References: <201610241820.u9OIKkva5374146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 24 October 2016 at 20:20, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > - Yes, classic Macs did get viruses. But as a user of a classic Mac since > 1987, I think I encountered one exactly once and my experience was not > unusual. They just weren't all that common and nearly everyone ran Virex > anyway until Mac OS 8 days when the platform had little or no relevance to > virus authors. What, really? Wow. You were lucky! I never owned a Mac of my own 'til my "Road Apple" Performa 5200... http://lowendmac.com/1995/performa-5200/ ... in about '96, thanks to Apple's "Platform Club" for UK journos. However, in the preceding nearly-a-decade, I supported & maintained plenty of 'em. Virus infections were plentiful, by a wide variety of viruses, and there were a wide variety of anti-virus apps in use. Symantec Antivirus for Macintosh -- SAM -- was the most common commercial one, but there were others. Virex and Disinfectant were the most common freebies. There were both disk and file viruses, as well as Trojans. And when Mac Office 98 came along, there were macro viruses too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 15:41:04 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 16:41:04 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2016, at 4:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> ... > > OK, I guess my last email didn?t make it. It appears to me that the rise time is set at 25ns. > > You need to look at the PDP-11 UNIBUS Design Description document on Bitsavers. Firstly, > in section 4-1, it specifies which chips to use and recommends not using a whole list of other > chips. The only recommended chips are: 8640, 8641 and 8881. Sure. But we're trying to understand what is required in order to design alternatives. Where do you see the 25 ns spec? I didn't see it (admittedly in a quick scan). paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 24 15:48:16 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:48:16 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 1:41 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 4:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> ... >> >> OK, I guess my last email didn?t make it. It appears to me that the rise time is set at 25ns. >> >> You need to look at the PDP-11 UNIBUS Design Description document on Bitsavers. Firstly, >> in section 4-1, it specifies which chips to use and recommends not using a whole list of other >> chips. The only recommended chips are: 8640, 8641 and 8881. > > Sure. But we're trying to understand what is required in order to design alternatives. > > Where do you see the 25 ns spec? I didn't see it (admittedly in a quick scan). 5.2.7. It?s discussing the AC loading as a percentage of the risetime (25ns) to allow for the reflections. Yes, all I?m saying is that folks have been looking at OMNIBUS and QBUS and those are much simpler electrical environments than UNIBUS. You really need to pay attention to the fact that UNIBUS is really a set of transmission lines so in addition to critical levels and currents you need to worry about the transmission line effects (ie the AC components). TTFN - Guy From dab at froghouse.org Mon Oct 24 15:56:10 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 16:56:10 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1076dce5-0b34-0ac6-597b-548e56b9bf94@froghouse.org> On 10/24/2016 04:30 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't see any max slew rate spec in the driver specs in the peripherals handbook. For the QBUS from the PDP11 Bus Handbook 1979, page 125: AC Specifications Bus driver output pin capacitive load: Not to exceed 10 pF Propagation delay: Not to exceed 35 ns Skew (difference in propagation time between slowest and fastest gate): Not to exceed 25 ns Rise/Fall Times: Transition time from 10% to 90% for positive transition, and from 90% to 10% for negative transition, must be no faster than 10 ns and no slower than 1 us It's faster than the Unibus (that Guy posted) presumably because QBUS systems tend to be much smaller but a driver that meets the Unibus spec is good on the QBUS too. On the receiver, maybe the way to go would be a linear comparator. It would be easy enough to come up with a 1.5V rail (half way between the 1.3V low and 1.7V high levels) running down the length. And you have to look but you can find them with a fast enough propagation speed. The only thing I'm not seeing is meeting the 10pF capacitive load; the spec sheets just don't say. Dave From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 24 16:00:12 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:00:12 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20161024210012.GB1723@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great allison once stated: > On 10/23/2016 09:15 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> My favorite formatter was my S100 crate with CP/M, [it's] impossible > >> to give a single user OS without background processing a virus. > > I disagree. I see nothing about "a single-user OS without background > > processing" that would prevent a virus from infecting other programs, > > even including the OS, when it's run, and potentially doing something > > else as well. > > > > Perhaps you are using some meaning of "virus" other than "piece of > > software that infects other software to propagate itself"? That's the > > only meaning that makes any sense to me. > > > Its highly unlikely as first it would have to install itself and do so > without corrupting the OS. CP/M-80 is a machine monitor with a file system > and lacking most of the usual read the disk and "do something" automation. > The only automation in CP/M is logging a drive which is reading the > directory and mapping used blocks. So the initial load would have to be > performed by the user. Trogan maybe, social engineered for sure, virus > no. The key is you have to actually execute a file for action to happen. > In CP/M you can disk dump sectors and never execute them, formatting is > even more benign, the disk is never read save for a post format verify. MS-DOS had CP/M at its heart, and it had its fair share of virii (viruses? What is the plural of a computer virus?). The discussion Liam linked to (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.cpm/V1-zYzA6Uzg) seems to echo my own thoughts here---technically, it's possible, but not probable due to the resource constraints (mainly memory) inherent in CP/M. There is nothing that also requires a virus to run a background process---it can certainly modify the existing program to infect other programs, but again, on CP/M because of the contrained resources (and lack of speed) such actions might be noticed by the user. And in my experience [1] most viruses would infect executable programs and it wasn't until Windows, when Microsoft went out of its way to find any form of code in any file type and execute it, did viruses start infecting other types of files (at first, I didn't believe reports of viruses spreading via JPEGs, but yup, it was true. Thanks, Microsoft!). -spc [1] Never got any in my day-to-day activities, but there was an outbreak at the university I attended in the late 80s. I managed to snag an example and decompile it. I have no idea what virus it was, but I think I still have a copy in my floppy archives somewhere. From gordonzaft at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:03:26 2016 From: gordonzaft at gmail.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 14:03:26 -0700 Subject: turbochannel available In-Reply-To: <20161022195949.GE4810@arwen.poofy.goof.com> References: <20161022195949.GE4810@arwen.poofy.goof.com> Message-ID: Aaron! I'm interested. 164 S. Aspen Dr. Chandler, AZ 85226 G On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Aaron J. Grier wrote: > I have pmaz SCSI controller, a couple lofis, and a bunch of 8MB pmax+ > modules that are being threatened with the local electronics recycler. > > send me the address of your good home or place of business in the > continental US states, and I'll spare them that fate. > > -- > Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com > -- Gordon Zaft Province 35 Governor Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia Fraternity gordonzaft at gmail.com From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 24 16:05:57 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:05:57 -0400 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161024210556.GC1723@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ethan at 757.org once stated: > > Early Macs definitely had viruses, a few that I got from thrift stores > still have the viruses on them. I don't think there is any memory > protection at all. Software selection for MacOS was pretty crappy, and it > was hard to get under the hood. So protecting yourself from them would be > very difficult on the Mac platform. All the file fork BS, dev tools hard > to get. Also, just like the iPhone pretty much everything was > shareware/commercial, less community stuff than the PC. I feel bad for the > people that grew up on MAcOS versus MS-DOS. Memory protection does not protect you from a virus. It can protect other running processes from being modified (if they belong to other users they can't be infected at all; other processes owned by the user it's possible, depending upon the system [1]) but that's it. -spc [1] I would say "yes" in general---you do have to be able to debug your own programs and thus, intercept and modify a running process (at the very least, to set a break point). From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 24 16:24:34 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <20161024210556.GC1723@brevard.conman.org> References: <20161024210556.GC1723@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > Memory protection does not protect you from a virus. It can protect other > running processes from being modified (if they belong to other users they > can't be infected at all; other processes owned by the user it's possible, > depending upon the system [1]) but that's it. > -spc Sorry, I was thinking back to the finger file from the ID software guy talking about how horrible MacOS was, not from the perspective of preventing viruses. I suppose Apple was early in the networking game with Appletalk but not sure if the viruses ever made use of it. ( I grew up Atari -> PC ) -- Ethan O'Toole From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Oct 24 16:28:17 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:28:17 +1300 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? Message-ID: Here is some I wrote some time ago on my experiences with vintage viruses. Bear in mind it's a narrative (and hence somewhat long-winded and rambling) but anyway..here it is for anyone interested... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-08-30-vintage-viruses.htm Terry (Tez) From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:55:42 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:55:42 -0600 Subject: Intel 8089A, 8089A-3, 8089-3 datasheet Message-ID: Does anyone have a datasheet for an Intel 8089A, 8089A-3, or 8089-3? The only datasheets I've found are for the "plain" 8089 with no "A" or numeric suffix. The component resellers show better availabiliity for with the "A" and/or "-3" suffix, though it's possible that those are in error. The 8089 is an I/O processor. The "-3" suffix is most likely a speed grade. The standard part without the "-3" is 5 MHz. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:30:41 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 18:30:41 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > OK, I guess my last email didn?t make it. It appears to me that the rise time is set at 25ns. > > You need to look at the PDP-11 UNIBUS Design Description document on Bitsavers. Firstly, > in section 4-1, it specifies which chips to use and recommends not using a whole list of other > chips. The only recommended chips are: 8640, 8641 and 8881. We used 8641s on our Unibus COMBOARDs (which weren't built cheaply - $2500 MSRP in 1984). We also used a pair of DEC DC013s for "Unibus Interrupt Logic" (and they were somewhat expensive, IIRC, but we used them to minimize compatibility problems. Customer confidence was worth a couple hundred bucks in parts and engineering overhead). We likewise went with DEC chips for our Qbus product - we bought the DEC Chipkits and used about 75% of them - the DC005s for sure, and I think the DC010s, but didn't use the DC004s, IIRC. Either way, everything touching the bus went through a DEC chip. > There are a number of rules that must be adhered to when building out a Unibus system. These > include: > Maximum cable length must be < 50? > Maximum DC loading < 20 > Maximum lumped loading < 20 > There are rules where cable lengths must be *increased* to avoid reflections. > > For example, my PDP-11/40 resides in 2 BA11-F boxes (23? tall) and are fully populated with > Unibus backplanes (5 9 slot backplanes each) with a BA11-15 (15? cable) connecting the two. We ran machines in the 80s that were not quite as extensive, but one I recall well was our primary 11/750 with the internal DD11DK full of cards (UDA50, and a few other things), then a 25' BC11 cable to a single BA11-K with 3X DD11DK that were full or nearly full - mostly in that box were the Emulex CS21F 16-port serial cards (at least 5), any Unibus tape controllers, up to 6 of our COMBOARDs, at least one DMR11, and a handful of quad SPCs. It all seemed to play nicely, but we weren't running close to maxed out. Most of our other machines had 1-2 DD11DK outside of the CPU backplane but not nearly as many cards or bus traffic. We never had any Ethernet hardware, so all of our sessions were handled via local serial ports. Lots of serial ports. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:41:48 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 18:41:48 -0400 Subject: Unibus / Qbus In-Reply-To: <6e04fcd5-9244-6773-66a1-dfb14a20bff6@e-bbes.com> References: <2143aa7d-6011-cfdc-d0b3-ef0c52d2ad61@verizon.net> <6e04fcd5-9244-6773-66a1-dfb14a20bff6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:39 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Every time I thought about it, or even started, I gave up, because there > aren't simply enough people who would buy such a thing. The prices for an > old working Qbus SCSI controller are low enough, to just wait until you get > one on ebay for a decent price. For Qbus SCSI, that number seems to hover around $250. I can't build one for cheaper than that, and I doubt anyone can. > So all of my machines have SCSI in the meantime, and the headache of making > my own is gone ;-) I do have more than one Qbus SCSI card, but far more Qbus CPUs than I could ever afford to so equip. Also, I have plenty of Unibus and one VAXBI for which SCSI is far more expensive, so I keep dreaming of a way to do that, but I never get as far as implementation. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 17:54:50 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 18:54:50 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/2016 03:55 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 10/24/2016 12:01 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I don't know about the receiver part, but I'd expect that the drivers could very easily be done with a simple transistor circuit. > Agreed. However ... > >> As for slew rates, unless you have antique transistors, that's not going to be an issue given that you meet the current sink spec; the slew rate of an OC circuit is determined by the system capacitance and the sink current of the driver. > I think you read this part backwards. The slew rate requirement is not > a minimum slew rate but a maximum one. It is set by bus loading card and input to devices contribute capacitance and pull-up current. The rule is what you do does not break the system not individual boards those they must be compliant. > That is, any modern transistor > (probably ancient ones too) will be way too fast. You have to do > something to slow it down. NO no no! The old 2n706 and 2n3638 (mid 60s silicon parts) are ancient and still too fast if that were the case. Its the product of the bus loading the saturation characteristics of the device. In all cases the active low impedance is less than 20 ohms (much less). > Still, I think this one is easily met as > it's just a series resistor on the gate of the driver MOSFET working > against the gate capacitance. Some FPGAs have current limiting on their > output which may obviate the need for the resistor even. Actually the Drain of a fet is already loaded with capcitance, look at their spec's. Also MOSFETs (trench, hex, or lateral) also have a diode present as well as a finite drain resistance. A series resistor on the gate would seriously impact switching time and propagation delay due to Miller capcitance. The best device is a venerable 2n3904 plus maybe 10 ohms on the collector. That will easily sink the max 20 loads of the spec with room to spare. the Qbus is actually harder than Unibus as it can and is extended plus data and address are multiplex on the same lines which are 120 ohm transmission lines for speed where the Unibus is 240ohms. The higher the impedance the grated the sensitivity to capacitive loading. Omnibus is a special case as some devices can Wire-OR data onto the bus and an active pull-up device would be unhappy with that. > The receiver though, that one takes a little more thought. > > Now the input is a device with hysteresis and there are plenty of TTL devices that fit in that space and would do well. MOS/CMOS is not god as it high input Capacitance and a sensitive to latchup (negative spike from the lines ringing). The DEC 8xxx part is like a 7438 for outgoing and 7414 for incoming is the inversion is wrong there are compliments. That would be one transceiver in the package. My sources include the DEC semiconductor data manual and the Omni/Uni/Q/bus interfacing manuals. Most in several editions over time. That and prints for everything I own thanks to Mill Repro. This information is part of the design toolkit. Allison From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Oct 24 18:04:29 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 23:04:29 +0000 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <20161024210012.GB1723@brevard.conman.org> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> <20161024210012.GB1723@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDCDF29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Sean Conner Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 2:00 PM > MS-DOS had CP/M at its heart, and it had its fair share of virii (viruses? > What is the plural of a computer virus?). Viruses. The Latin word _virus_ means "slime, poison", and is a collective noun, like English _milk_ or _flour_ or _sugar_. It did not form a plural at all. Furthermore, it is a neuter (neither masculine nor feminine) o-stem noun, very very odd because it ends in -us rather than -um in the nominative. -us is overwhelming the marker of a masculine o-stem, or occasionally of a masculine or feminine u-stem (whose plural would be in -us), and very rarely of a feminine o-stem, or often of a neuter s-stem (like _genus_ "kind", whose plural is _genera_ "kinds"). The -i marker of nominative plurals is restricted to those masculine and feminine o-stems; -ii is restricted further, to o-stems in which the stem vowel is preceded by -i-, so _domus, domi_ "house, houses" vs. _genius, genii_ "tutelary spirit(s) attendant on a person from birth", _Julius, Julii_ "a _gens_ (clan) name, members of the Julian _gens_", _Cornelius, Cornelii_, etc. Neuters in all ancient Indo-European languages, such as Sanskrit, Greek, and Latin, end in -a (or a regular development from *-a). Presumably, if one were able to specify a plural in Latin of the word _virus_, it would by rule have to end in -a. But the speakers of Latin did not speak of discrete slimes, it all being one to them, so we will never know. The word _virus_ was used as a synonym for _venom_ as late as the early 20th Century in English, as in Burroughs's description of the deadliness of the _virus_ of Martian serpents (in _The Gods of Mars_), which confused me no end when I was reading the Martian novels for the first time at the age of 14. The modern usage derives from the medical term _filterable virus_, referring to a disease-causing agent which was unresolvable under a microscope but which could be mechanically filtered out of water, unlike a poisonous chemical dissolved in water. The word _filterable_ was dropped at some point in the literature, then electron microscopes came along which *could* resolve viruses, and we come into the modern world. More than you ever wanted to know, I'm sure. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 19:14:45 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDCDF29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> <20161024210012.GB1723@brevard.conman.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDCDF29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: >> What is the plural of a computer virus?). On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > Viruses. > The Latin word _virus_ means "slime, poison", and is a collective noun > . . . > Furthermore, it is a neuter (neither masculine nor feminine) o-stem noun, > . . . > The -i marker of nominative plurals is restricted to those masculine and > . . . > Neuters in all ancient Indo-European languages, such as Sanskrit, Greek, and > Latin, end in -a (or a regular development from *-a). > . . . > The word _virus_ was used as a synonym for _venom_ as late as the early 20th > . . . > modern usage derives from the medical term _filterable virus_, referring to a > More than you ever wanted to know, I'm sure. Actually, NO. You answered a long unresolved question. Authoritatively, and with sufficient detail to facilitate further research, or even to seek collaboration if there were doubts. Thank you. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doug at doughq.com Mon Oct 24 19:14:36 2016 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:14:36 +1100 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My 11/34 and 11/10 would be very happy to have one of these each . Doug Jackson On 25 October 2016 5:28:05 am AEDT, Scott Baker wrote: >Hi Noel, > >>> Any chance it could be put into 'production'? >Sure, if there is interest, I could make a run of boards. > >>> Also, what FPGA board are you using? I assume it's one that has an >SD >>> card socket or something, for actually storing the bits on? > >My project is just an interface board for an existing RL02 emulator >project: www.pdp11gy.com There are a multiple project revisions listed >on >the pdp11gy.com site that use different Altera FPGA dev boards: DE0 >Nano, >DE0 Nano SOC, and BeMicro CV. > >I was planning to use a Terasic DE0 Nano dev board since these boards >can >be found on eBay from $50 to $100. The DE0 nano does not have an >micro-SD >card socket which is why there is a socket on my interface board. >http://sierracircuitdesign.ddns.net/temp/RL02 > >The DE0 Nano SOC, and BeMicro CV dev boards have micro-SD card sockets, >so >if you used one of those, then you would not need to populate the >micro-SD >socket on the interface board. According to the author of the >www.pdp11gy.com RL02 project, the 40-pin headers on DE0 Nano, DE0 Nano >SOC, >and BeMicro CV are compatible, so you could use my interface board with >any >of these boards. > >Regards, >Scott -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 24 19:33:04 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 20:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <9894b8aa-1ca5-7f08-ae70-206a906f80a5@verizon.net> <201610240115.VAA05775@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <838095c8-723b-5419-9de5-f39ecbf37b19@verizon.net> <20161024210012.GB1723@brevard.conman.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDCDF29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201610250033.UAA05044@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> What is the plural of a computer virus?). >> Viruses. >> The Latin word _virus_ [...] >> More than you ever wanted to know, I'm sure. > Actually, NO. What Fred said. Across the board. Thank you. That was informative, authoritative, and - impressive, managing to combine this with the other two - interesting. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 25 01:35:39 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 00:35:39 -0600 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: > >> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? > > The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): > > Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V > Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V > > And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: > > Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) > Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) > > So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might > work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its > limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy > to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. > But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. Ben. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Oct 25 04:58:59 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 05:58:59 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <18b73a2c-daf1-2896-5b33-2d93d22269b4@verizon.net> On 10/25/2016 02:35 AM, ben wrote: > On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: >> >>> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? >> >> The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the >> same): >> >> Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V >> Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V >> >> And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: >> >> Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) >> Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) >> True, you run the bus at 1.3/1.7 and see how far you go without errors. Those are limits. Most systems I've played with if you get over 1V/low and below 2V/high things tend to be a bit flakey. Also TTL switches at 1.7ish and anyone using a 74ls74 on the bus should be shot! Look at 74LS240 or 241 as a better example for an bus to board receiver. For driving the bus look at 74ls38 those are more typical. Look at a machine that's running well and tends to stay that way and you see more like .6-.8/low and over 2.4 high. >> So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might >> work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its >> limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy >> to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. >> > But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. > Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. > Ben. > Some of the recovered and restored system are big. Allison > > From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Oct 25 00:23:24 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:23:24 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 10/24/2016 1:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: > >> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? > The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): > > Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V > Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V > > And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: > > Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) > Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) > > So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might > work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its > limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy > to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. FYI here is an I/O plot I did of the bus input receiver of an 8641 device (the blue line). A threshold of about 1.5V. Also included is a plot of a 26S10 transceiver (which has a higher input voltage threshold) which I think is used in later designs (SBI? IIRC). http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/26S10vs8641.jpg From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Oct 25 00:23:24 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:23:24 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On 10/24/2016 1:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: > >> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? > The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): > > Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V > Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V > > And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: > > Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) > Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) > > So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might > work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its > limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy > to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. FYI here is an I/O plot I did of the bus input receiver of an 8641 device (the blue line). A threshold of about 1.5V. Also included is a plot of a 26S10 transceiver (which has a higher input voltage threshold) which I think is used in later designs (SBI? IIRC). http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/26S10vs8641.jpg From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue Oct 25 03:06:28 2016 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz chwolka) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:06:28 +0200 Subject: Archived viruses, was Re: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am 24.10.2016 um 23:28 schrieb Terry Stewart: > Here is some I wrote some time ago on my experiences with vintage viruses. > Bear in mind it's a narrative (and hence somewhat long-winded and rambling) > but anyway..here it is for anyone interested... > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-08-30-vintage-viruses.htm > > Terry (Tez) > I say thanks for your note. Some years ago got an "wake up" with a stone virus. On my dos systems using for disc converting or retro games I test now every disk I insert. Best Regards fritz Mit freundlichen Gr??en Fritz Chwolka ___________________________________ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 25 04:25:35 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:25:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> You need to look at the PDP-11 UNIBUS Design Description document on >> Bitsavers. Firstly, in section 4-1, it specifies which chips to use >> and recommends not using a whole list of other chips. The only >> recommended chips are: 8640, 8641 and 8881. > > Sure. But we're trying to understand what is required in order to > design alternatives. Where do you see the 25 ns spec? I didn't see it > (admittedly in a quick scan). I have the 1979 edition of the PDP11 Bus Handbook in front of me. This book is very handy as all information on the Unibus and QBUS can be found there. The driver and receiver characteristics are listed in table 1-3 on page 60. The only timing parameters for the drivers are the maximum _propagation_ delays (25ns TPDL and 35ns TPDH), so I interprete this that the drivers can be faster than that, and no single word about slew rates. For the QBUS drivers, page 125 specifies the rise/fall times: 10ns<=t<=1?s There is no such equivalent for the Unibus. Christian From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 25 09:02:35 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:02:35 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 24, 2016, at 11:35 PM, ben wrote: > > On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: >> >>> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? >> >> The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): >> >> Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V >> Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V >> >> And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: >> >> Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) >> Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) >> >> So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might >> work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its >> limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy >> to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. >> > But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. > Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. I just posted what one of my systems is (11/40). It has 128KW of core which takes 4 9-slot backplanes. I have a fair amount of I/O on that system so I have 2 BA11F chassis *full* of backplanes (each BA11F holds 5 9 slot backplanes). My other large system is an 11/70 with a BA11K as an expansion box. The whole point of Unibus was to allow for large configurations. And I can guarantee you that TTL will *not* work in those systems. If you want to build boards that will work in a small subset of systems that?s find?but don?t advertise it as Unibus compatible. I test the boards I produce in all of my systems (11/20, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/70) and they all use DEC bus interface chips. TTFN - Guy From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Oct 25 10:06:16 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:06:16 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <956269E0-78F7-44D9-9A9F-8E5A0A6B6ACB@nf6x.net> I bought the lovely SOL-20 system yesterday. Picture: https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/790631315695513600 It will probably be a week or three before I work with it in detail, because right now I'm nominally working on my absurd Retrochallenge 2016/10 project of making a USB interface for an RL02 drive. Now I'm on the lookout for a small, monochrome, composite monitor of late 1970s vintage to set on top of it. I have other monitors which will be functionally just fine, but which won't look Just Right sitting on top of the SOL-20. I'll probably do initial work with my little Apple IIc monitor, just because it's small and easy to carry. This system came with an 80x25 video card, but I plan to initially use it in its original 64x16 glory. I'll either upgrade to 80x25 later in the natural progression of getting to know the new system, or use it in the other S-100 chassis that I am building up. I don't know about the system's operational status yet. I'm going in to the project assuming that the capacitive keyboard is dead, the electrolytic caps are dried up, the drive heads are filthy, and the bearings are gummed up. Maybe the condition is a lot better than that, but those seem like reasonable assumptions for a computer of its age that hasn't been used recently. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 25 09:16:43 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix Message-ID: <20161025141643.8470A18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'll start with getting VTServer to run under V6 (my only Unix, don't > have anything later :-) So, I just got VTServer runnin under V6: it successfully loaded a memory diagnostic from the 'server', into the 'client', using 'vtboot' on the latter. (Both running on emulated machines, for the moment - I thought I'd take all the hardware-related variables out of the equation, until I have the software all running OK.) It didn't require as much work on VTServer as I thought it might: I had to convert the C to the V6 dialect (no '+=', etc), and some other small things (e.g. convert the TTY setup code), but in general, it was pretty smooth and painless. Note that it won't run under vanilla V6, which does not provide 8-bit input and output on serial lines. I had previously added 'LITIN' and 'LITOUT' modes (8-bit input and output) to my V6; since the mode word in stty/gtty was already full, I had to extend the device interface to support them. I didn't add ioctl() or anything later, I did an upward-compatible extension to stty/gtty. (I'm a real NIH guy. :-) My only real problem in getting VTServer running was with LITIN; I did it some while back, but had never actually tested it (I was only using LITOUT, for my custom program to talk to PDP-11 consoles, which also did downloads, so needed 8-bit output). So when I went to use it, it didn't work, and it was a real stumper! But I did eventually figure out what the problem was (after writing a custom program to reach into the kernel and dump the entire state of a serial line), and get it working. (I had taken the shortcut of not fully understanding how the kernel serial line code worked, just tried to install point fixes. This turned out not to work, because of a side-effect elsewhere in the code. Moral of the story: you can't change the operation of a piece of software without complete understanding of how it works...) Is there any interest in all this? If so, I can put together a web page with the V6-verion VTServer source, along with the modified V6 serial line stuff (including a short description of the extended stty/gtty interface), etc. > so if you turn up whatever you used to boot V6, it would probably still > be useful. So I guess my next step, if I don't hear shortly from someone who has previously used VTServer to install V6, is to start on actually getting a V6 file system created. I'm still vacillating over whether it would be better to go V6-style (and just transfer a complete, small existing V6 filesystem), or V7-style (and get stand-alone 'mkfs', etc running with V6-format file systems). Anyone have an opinion? Noel From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Oct 25 10:38:02 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:38:02 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387c2fd@verizon.net> On 10/25/16 10:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 11:35 PM, ben wrote: >> >> On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >>> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: >>> >>>> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? >>> The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): >>> >>> Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V >>> Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V >>> >>> And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: >>> >>> Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) >>> Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) >>> >>> So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might >>> work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its >>> limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy >>> to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. >>> >> But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. >> Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. > I just posted what one of my systems is (11/40). It has 128KW of core which > takes 4 9-slot backplanes. I have a fair amount of I/O on that system so I > have 2 BA11F chassis *full* of backplanes (each BA11F holds 5 9 slot backplanes). > > My other large system is an 11/70 with a BA11K as an expansion box. The whole > point of Unibus was to allow for large configurations. > > And I can guarantee you that TTL will *not* work in those systems. Maybe if care is not taken. Again there are TTL part and those designed for bus use. Bad choice, bad results. I've seen a few like that that broke even with DEC parts. Then again My 11/73 is BA11S and Ba11N both with 18 slot 4mb ram (two cards), DELQA, two RQDX3 (one for RX floppies, second for RD disks), RLV21 (in box2), CMS scsi, RXV21V-RX02, DZH11V and Parallel IO (ttl) in box 2 and Gigilo card (DEC sound card for Qbus) in Box 1. Likely a few IO I forgot. By all DEC standards its unsupported config. Bus signals still look good. I've seen my share of BIG VAXen with many unibus crates too. Allison old millrat > > If you want to build boards that will work in a small subset of systems that?s > find?but don?t advertise it as Unibus compatible. I test the boards I produce > in all of my systems (11/20, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/70) and they all use DEC bus > interface chips. > > TTFN - Guy > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:23:54 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:23:54 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:35 AM, ben wrote: > But who has the big systems now days? Me. > The days of 4K core is long gone. I have Unibus machines that were 8 or more "system units" (DD11CK equivalents), and a PDP-11/20 that takes up 3 BA-11 boxes. 60% of it is 4K core stacks, BTW, just like the day it was made in 1972. It only has a handful of peripherals (console, RK11, LP11...) > Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. That's great if one is cobbling together a new system, but it doesn't help when one is trying to breathe life into an existing system by adding a modern peripheral because ancient disks are no longer reasonably available. -ethan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 25 11:06:58 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:06:58 -0400 Subject: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <20161025141643.8470A18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161025141643.8470A18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <940292d6-5026-1a8b-671e-6bf579aef419@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-10-25 10:16 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > I'll start with getting VTServer to run under V6 (my only Unix, don't > > have anything later :-) > > So, I just got VTServer runnin under V6: ... > Is there any interest in all this? If so, I can put together a web page with > the V6-verion VTServer source, along with the modified V6 serial line stuff > (including a short description of the extended stty/gtty interface), etc. IMHO it's worth putting on github with a README, yes. --Toby > ... > > Noel > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 25 11:10:01 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:10:01 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387c2fd@verizon.net> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387 c2fd@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 25, 2016, at 8:38 AM, allison wrote: > > On 10/25/16 10:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> On Oct 24, 2016, at 11:35 PM, ben wrote: >>> >>> On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >>>> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: >>>> >>>>> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? >>>> The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): >>>> >>>> Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V >>>> Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V >>>> >>>> And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: >>>> >>>> Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) >>>> Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) >>>> >>>> So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might >>>> work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its >>>> limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy >>>> to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. >>>> >>> But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. >>> Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. >> I just posted what one of my systems is (11/40). It has 128KW of core which >> takes 4 9-slot backplanes. I have a fair amount of I/O on that system so I >> have 2 BA11F chassis *full* of backplanes (each BA11F holds 5 9 slot backplanes). >> >> My other large system is an 11/70 with a BA11K as an expansion box. The whole >> point of Unibus was to allow for large configurations. >> >> And I can guarantee you that TTL will *not* work in those systems. > > Maybe if care is not taken. Again there are TTL part and those designed for bus use. > Bad choice, bad results. I've seen a few like that that broke even with DEC parts. That?s why there?s the UNIBUS spec that DEC published. In big systems, you must follow the guidelines even with the proper transceivers. Sometimes it requires that things be split up and cable length added. Also, I think in a previous email you mentioned that the UNIBUS is 240ohm. It?s not. It?s 120ohm. > > Then again My 11/73 is BA11S and Ba11N both with 18 slot 4mb ram (two cards), DELQA, > two RQDX3 (one for RX floppies, second for RD disks), RLV21 (in box2), CMS scsi, > RXV21V-RX02, DZH11V and Parallel IO (ttl) in box 2 and Gigilo card (DEC sound > card for Qbus) in Box 1. Likely a few IO I forgot. OK, it?s still a small system by UNIBUS standards. ;-) I can?t check either my 11/40 or 11/70 but (from memory) the configs are: 11/40: BA11F(1): CPU with all options (including FIS), 2 32KW core memory, additional backplanes to fill it up BA11F(2): 2 32KW core memory, 1 RK11D (4 slot backplane), additional backplanes to fill it up The ?standard? Unibus devices as I recall are (there are more as most of the backplanes are full): 4 DL11s DZ11 RL11 At least one tape drive interface of some sort bootstrap/terminator BC11A-15 to connect the two BA11Fs together. 11/70: BA11F(1): CPU with all options, Hypercache (4MW option that looks like a 4MW cache to the CPU), 2 SMD controllers that plug into the slots for the massbus controllers (4 slots each). 2 Massbus controllers (4 slots each), 1 DL11 BA11K: RK11D 4 slot backplane, 2 RL11 controllers, TS11 controller, TU81 controller, 2 DZ11s, 3 DL11s, 1 ethernet controller There?s more on this system, I just don?t recall it all at the moment. Again, this system is *full*. I?m at the point where if I want to add more stuff I need to add another BA11K. bootstrap/terminator BC11A-15 to connect the BA11F to the BA11K > > By all DEC standards its unsupported config. Bus signals still look good. > > I've seen my share of BIG VAXen with many unibus crates too. Yes, and they all used the proper UNIBUS transceivers and not TTL parts. TTFN - Guy From clemc at ccc.com Tue Oct 25 12:52:21 2016 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:52:21 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] VTServer/etc for V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <20161025141643.8470A18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161025141643.8470A18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Is there any interest in all this? If so, I can put together a web page > with > the V6-verion VTServer source, along with the modified V6 serial line stuff > (including a short description of the extended stty/gtty interface), etc. > ?Yes please....? > > So I guess my next step, if I don't hear shortly from someone who has > previously used VTServer to install V6, is to start on actually getting > a V6 file system created. > ?I think there are rk05 images in bit savers, check out uv6swre? > > I'm still vacillating over whether it would be better to go V6-style (and > just transfer a complete, small existing V6 filesystem), > ?The issue is even at 9600 baud, you do need to download 2.4Mbytes which will take? a few minutes. So you would need to create a very small root FS and then you get into how much is enough. > or V7-style (and > get stand-alone 'mkfs', etc running with V6-format file systems). Anyone > have an opinion? > ?Basically it depends how many commands you need. Clearly, you need to V6-afy the V7 standalone system and then for each app you need, you have to both v6-afy and add the #ifdef STANDALONE hacks. Clearly you need mkfs, and probably need a one or more other programs in the key of restor, tar, tp, dd or the like to copy things. That's going to be a bit a work - although once you have done it, it will be handy I suspect. Clem? From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Oct 25 14:40:37 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:40:37 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387 c2fd@verizon.net> <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/16 12:10 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On Oct 25, 2016, at 8:38 AM, allison wrote: >> >> On 10/25/16 10:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>>> On Oct 24, 2016, at 11:35 PM, ben wrote: >>>> >>>> On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >>>>> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? >>>>> The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): >>>>> >>>>> Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V >>>>> Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V >>>>> >>>>> And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: >>>>> >>>>> Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) >>>>> Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) >>>>> >>>>> So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might >>>>> work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its >>>>> limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy >>>>> to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. >>>>> >>>> But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. >>>> Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. >>> I just posted what one of my systems is (11/40). It has 128KW of core which >>> takes 4 9-slot backplanes. I have a fair amount of I/O on that system so I >>> have 2 BA11F chassis *full* of backplanes (each BA11F holds 5 9 slot backplanes). >>> >>> My other large system is an 11/70 with a BA11K as an expansion box. The whole >>> point of Unibus was to allow for large configurations. >>> >>> And I can guarantee you that TTL will *not* work in those systems. >> Maybe if care is not taken. Again there are TTL part and those designed for bus use. >> Bad choice, bad results. I've seen a few like that that broke even with DEC parts. > That?s why there?s the UNIBUS spec that DEC published. In big systems, you must > follow the guidelines even with the proper transceivers. Sometimes it requires that > things be split up and cable length added. > > Also, I think in a previous email you mentioned that the UNIBUS is 240ohm. It?s not. > It?s 120ohm. My book says no. Qbus is for sure 120. >> Then again My 11/73 is BA11S and Ba11N both with 18 slot 4mb ram (two cards), DELQA, >> two RQDX3 (one for RX floppies, second for RD disks), RLV21 (in box2), CMS scsi, >> RXV21V-RX02, DZH11V and Parallel IO (ttl) in box 2 and Gigilo card (DEC sound >> card for Qbus) in Box 1. Likely a few IO I forgot. > OK, it?s still a small system by UNIBUS standards. ;-) I can?t check either my 11/40 > or 11/70 but (from memory) the configs are: > 11/40: > BA11F(1): CPU with all options (including FIS), 2 32KW core memory, additional backplanes to fill it up > BA11F(2): 2 32KW core memory, 1 RK11D (4 slot backplane), additional backplanes to fill it up > The ?standard? Unibus devices as I recall are (there are more as most of the backplanes are full): > 4 DL11s > DZ11 > RL11 > At least one tape drive interface of some sort > bootstrap/terminator > BC11A-15 to connect the two BA11Fs together. > 11/70: > BA11F(1): CPU with all options, Hypercache (4MW option that looks like a 4MW cache to the CPU), 2 SMD controllers that plug into the slots for the massbus controllers (4 slots each). 2 Massbus controllers (4 slots each), 1 DL11 > BA11K: RK11D 4 slot backplane, 2 RL11 controllers, TS11 controller, TU81 controller, 2 DZ11s, 3 DL11s, 1 ethernet controller > There?s more on this system, I just don?t recall it all at the moment. Again, this system is *full*. I?m at the point where if I want to add more stuff I need to add another BA11K. > bootstrap/terminator > BC11A-15 to connect the BA11F to the BA11K >> By all DEC standards its unsupported config. Bus signals still look good. Mine has many LS24x part and 7438s as there are more than a few IO cards that are non DEC (mine). Example IO a PIO IDE interface test dog wire wrapped (usually the worst) alone with A/D and D/A. By Qbus standards its a monster and it was rare to see more than two boxes and usually the cages were not the 18 AB slot but the 9 slot ABCD configuration. Runs unix well and usually that breaks machines that are flakey. Also Qbus uses 120 ohm termination so the drivers have to sink more current. Never could fake the DEC interbox cables, those are well done to work right. The BA123 uVax also has a few odd cards, doesn't seem to care. THose however were not fast on the bus as they used PMI for Memory. Another example is the 11/23 with all heathkit cards for memory, IO and a few unique homebrews. I've never seen a bus level issue die to devices used. >> I've seen my share of BIG VAXen with many unibus crates too. > Yes, and they all used the proper UNIBUS transceivers and not TTL parts. mostly.... A few of the systems were not production and engineering did play. Bottom line is someday there will be no DEC parts and what then? I reserve DEC parts for repairing defunct boards for new and unique build it would be a waste of scarce material. The vector interrupt chip DC-series is one that is hard to fake without a larger number of chips. For preservation reasons its very important, for hacking an old system not as much. In my collection I have both. Allison > TTFN - Guy > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Oct 25 14:59:29 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 08:59:29 +1300 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <956269E0-78F7-44D9-9A9F-8E5A0A6B6ACB@nf6x.net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <956269E0-78F7-44D9-9A9F-8E5A0A6B6ACB@nf6x.net> Message-ID: >I bought the lovely SOL-20 system yesterday. Picture: >https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/790631315695513600 Lovely. I'm sure the sloping wood-(veener) sided case design of the Dick Smith System 80 was inspired by the SOL. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_s80-mk1-front-800.jpg Terry (Tez) From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 25 15:09:26 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:09:26 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > >> ... >> Where do you see the 25 ns spec? I didn't see it (admittedly in a quick scan). > > 5.2.7. It?s discussing the AC loading as a percentage of the risetime (25ns) to allow for the > reflections. That seems more like a "for illustration" than an actual specification. > Yes, all I?m saying is that folks have been looking at OMNIBUS and QBUS and those are > much simpler electrical environments than UNIBUS. You really need to pay attention to > the fact that UNIBUS is really a set of transmission lines so in addition to critical levels > and currents you need to worry about the transmission line effects (ie the AC components). Sure. But whether you look at it as a transmission line or not, in the final analysis there should be a small set of receiver and driver specs that matter. In theory, they should be the ones listed in the DEC documents, neither more nor less. In practice, there might be unspecified ones, such as max slew rate. If so, that's easy enough to handle by introducing a suitable RC at the driver base (or gate). As for the receiver, it seems that a TI 75140 (adjustable threshold line receiver) might do the job. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 25 15:24:48 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:24:48 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387 c2fd@verizon.net> <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4C4CDB85-969E-4F63-885E-923BC03ACC2A@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 25, 2016, at 12:40 PM, allison wrote: >> >> Also, I think in a previous email you mentioned that the UNIBUS is 240ohm. It?s not. >> It?s 120ohm. > My book says no. Qbus is for sure 120. > Section 5.2.5 of the PDP-11 UNIBUS spec: A Unibus segment must always have a Unibus terminator at each end of its 120-ohm transmission path. So, I don?t know how you get a value of anything other than 120-ohms given that statement. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 25 15:31:36 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:31:36 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >> >>> ... >>> Where do you see the 25 ns spec? I didn't see it (admittedly in a quick scan). >> >> 5.2.7. It?s discussing the AC loading as a percentage of the risetime (25ns) to allow for the >> reflections. > > That seems more like a "for illustration" than an actual specification. Maybe, but when you read section 5.2.7 of the PDP-11 Unibus specification: Nine lumped ac loads reflect 20 precent, and 20 lumped ac loads reflect 40 percent of a 25 ns risetime step. > >> Yes, all I?m saying is that folks have been looking at OMNIBUS and QBUS and those are >> much simpler electrical environments than UNIBUS. You really need to pay attention to >> the fact that UNIBUS is really a set of transmission lines so in addition to critical levels >> and currents you need to worry about the transmission line effects (ie the AC components). > > Sure. But whether you look at it as a transmission line or not, in the final analysis there should be a small set of receiver and driver specs that matter. In theory, they should be the ones listed in the DEC documents, neither more nor less. In practice, there might be unspecified ones, such as max slew rate. If so, that's easy enough to handle by introducing a suitable RC at the driver base (or gate). > > As for the receiver, it seems that a TI 75140 (adjustable threshold line receiver) might do the job. My concern (and I get that the supply of DEC transceivers is limited) is that someone will build some thing and says it works in Unibus machines and they?ve only tested it in a relatively small system (one BA11K box for example) and it will fail miserably (or worse only fail intermittently) in larger systems. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 25 15:34:52 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:34:52 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387 c2fd@verizon.net> <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <48ED4C75-0548-4BBC-9A7D-2E35928B47FC@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 25, 2016, at 12:40 PM, allison wrote: > >> >> Also, I think in a previous email you mentioned that the UNIBUS is 240ohm. It?s not. >> It?s 120ohm. > My book says no. Qbus is for sure 120. > OK, re-reading the first part of section 5.2.5, it?s pretty clear that the Unibus is 120-ohm: A bus terminator is defined as a Unibus element or part of an element containing a resistive network which connects to the end of a Unibus segment and matches the 120-ohm characteristic impedance of the Unibus transmission path. Given that it?s hard to see that the impedance of the Unibus is anything but 120-ohms. TTFN - Guy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 25 15:35:40 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:35:40 -0600 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <8fbcd83b-9750-d069-37a2-855cba633d37@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/25/2016 8:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 11:35 PM, ben wrote: >> >> On 10/24/2016 2:18 PM, David Bridgham wrote: >>> On 10/24/2016 01:37 PM, allison wrote: >>> >>>> The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? >>> >>> The QBUS spec from the 1979 Bus Handbook (the Unibus levels are the same): >>> >>> Input low voltage (maximum): 1.3 V >>> Input high voltage (minimum): 1.7 V >>> >>> And from the TI datasheet for the 74LS74: >>> >>> Vil - low-level input voltage 0.8 V (maximum) >>> Vih - high-level input voltage 2 V (minimum) >>> >>> So no, the DEC bus voltage levels are not TTL levels. Yeah, TTL might >>> work on a smaller system but you can see that if you push it out to its >>> limits, TTL could start getting flaky. That's the kind of bug I'm happy >>> to have DEC's engineers figure out and not have to track down myself. >>> >> But who has the big systems now days? The days of 4K core is long gone. >> Use TTL and try to keep the systems small. > > I just posted what one of my systems is (11/40). It has 128KW of core which > takes 4 9-slot backplanes. I have a fair amount of I/O on that system so I > have 2 BA11F chassis *full* of backplanes (each BA11F holds 5 9 slot backplanes). > > My other large system is an 11/70 with a BA11K as an expansion box. The whole > point of Unibus was to allow for large configurations. > > And I can guarantee you that TTL will *not* work in those systems. > > If you want to build boards that will work in a small subset of systems that?s > find?but don?t advertise it as Unibus compatible. I test the boards I produce > in all of my systems (11/20, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/70) and they all use DEC bus > interface chips. Where do you get your stock? > TTFN - Guy > Ben. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 15:36:00 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:36:00 -0600 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > As for the receiver, it seems that a TI 75140 (adjustable threshold line > receiver) might do the job. > The high-level input current spec on that is max 100uA, which exceeds the DEC specification. One thing everyone seems to be ignoring is that the DEC leakage current specifications are for Vcc from 0V to 5.25V. In other words, Unibus devices can't load the bus more when they're not powered. Almost all proposed alternatives to the DEC-recommended chips do not meet that requirement. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 25 15:36:25 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:36:25 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6F7E5CE3-A753-4DF2-B9A8-150E55204F12@comcast.net> > On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > >> On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 24, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> >>> >>>> ... >>>> Where do you see the 25 ns spec? I didn't see it (admittedly in a quick scan). >>> >>> 5.2.7. It?s discussing the AC loading as a percentage of the risetime (25ns) to allow for the >>> reflections. >> >> That seems more like a "for illustration" than an actual specification. > > Maybe, but when you read section 5.2.7 of the PDP-11 Unibus specification: > Nine lumped ac loads reflect 20 precent, and 20 lumped ac loads reflect 40 percent of > a 25 ns risetime step. That's my point. It says "a 25 ns risetime step". Not "THE 25 ns risetime step". Nor "at the minimum 25 ns risetime step". So it seems to be illustrative: if in your particular config the risetime happens to be that, the example holds. The obvious question to ask is what the bus capacitance is, between the module contributions, and the distributed capacitance of the cable. That would explain (in part) the risetime. The other part would be the inherent risetime of the TTL components of the era, which are somewhere in that range judging by some of the old datasheets I've just been looking at. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 25 15:49:01 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:49:01 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <8fbcd83b-9750-d069-37a2-855cba633d37@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <8fbcd83b-9750-d069-37a2-855cba63 3d37@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Oct 25, 2016, at 1:35 PM, ben wrote: > >> >> If you want to build boards that will work in a small subset of systems that?s >> find?but don?t advertise it as Unibus compatible. I test the boards I produce >> in all of my systems (11/20, 11/34, 11/40 and 11/70) and they all use DEC bus >> interface chips. > > Where do you get your stock? > Secondary chip marked (only reputable vendors). I currently have ~2500 8641 and several 100?s of the other variants. Assuming 100% good parts, I have enough stock to build at least 100 unibus boards (total) of various types that I have planned. And to forestall any questions on the topic, no I will not be selling any of the chips individually. They are there to allow me to build/sell the various Unibus boards. TTFN - Guy From jason at smbfc.net Tue Oct 25 16:03:28 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue top DEC cabinet -- cheap Message-ID: Hey All, Surplus at work has this right now: http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/deccab/ I'm happy to go pay for it and hold it if someone is interested and able to pick it up quickly. --Jason From jason at smbfc.net Tue Oct 25 16:04:49 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue top DEC cabinet -- cheap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, This is in Seattle, WA. --Jason On Tue, 25 Oct 2016, Jason Howe wrote: > Hey All, > > Surplus at work has this right now: > > http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/deccab/ > > I'm happy to go pay for it and hold it if someone is interested and able to > pick it up quickly. > > --Jason > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 25 16:12:57 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:12:57 -0700 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7f1d6843-4bd2-b686-798b-78ff8cc386fe@bitsavers.org> There are some new scans up now for 32/75 on bitsavers.org/pdf/sel and some software under bits/SEL I'll be working on MPX documentation next On 10/14/16 7:29 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > Bob: I may have a lot of software for it, if I can find the tapes and they > are still readable. I even got hold of their secret C compiler port. > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 16:36:41 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:36:41 -0600 Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote: > Wrote my own disassembler in Python. No assembler yet. > Now there's an assembler as well. > https://github.com/brouhaha/i89 > From jason at smbfc.net Tue Oct 25 16:36:59 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:36:59 -0700 Subject: Blue top DEC cabinet -- cheap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This item has been claimed. --Jason On October 25, 2016 2:04:49 PM PDT, Jason Howe wrote: >Sorry, This is in Seattle, WA. > >--Jason > >On Tue, 25 Oct 2016, Jason Howe wrote: > >> Hey All, >> >> Surplus at work has this right now: >> >> http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/deccab/ >> >> I'm happy to go pay for it and hold it if someone is interested and >able to >> pick it up quickly. >> >> --Jason >> -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From gtoal at gtoal.com Tue Oct 25 16:48:46 2016 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:48:46 -0500 Subject: PDP15 panel Message-ID: Friend of mine pointed this out to me, but I'm a software guy, don't have any use for hardware. Maybe you guys would be interested. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-PDP-15-console-panel-von-1970-/112179257620?hash=item1a1e67a114:g:kDwAAOSwB09YDf2Q 8 days left. I think he failed to sell it previously at 130 Euros so that probably sets an upper limit on the auction price. Graham From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Oct 25 17:04:39 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:04:39 -0700 Subject: PDP15 panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A litte Ebay shortcut http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/*itemnumber* so for this guy ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112179257620 On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Graham Toal wrote: > Friend of mine pointed this out to me, but I'm a software guy, don't have > any use for hardware. Maybe you guys would be interested. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-PDP-15-console-panel-von-1970- > /112179257620?hash=item1a1e67a114:g:kDwAAOSwB09YDf2Q > > 8 days left. I think he failed to sell it previously at 130 Euros so that > probably sets an upper limit on the auction price. > > Graham > > From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 25 17:15:28 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:15:28 -0500 Subject: PDP15 panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161025221528.GA21176@lonesome.com> If it were on this side of the pond I'll be all over that. mcl From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 25 17:33:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:33:04 -0700 Subject: PDP15 panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: apparently because no one knew about it On 10/25/16 2:48 PM, Graham Toal wrote: > I think he failed to sell it previously at 130 Euros From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 25 18:37:19 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:37:19 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 25, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> As for the receiver, it seems that a TI 75140 (adjustable threshold line >> receiver) might do the job. >> > > The high-level input current spec on that is max 100uA, which exceeds the > DEC specification. True. I guess a better option might be a voltage comparitor with FET input. The LT1011 would be an example except that it isn't quite fast enough. Or a voltage follower before the 75140, at the expense of higher part count. > One thing everyone seems to be ignoring is that the DEC leakage current > specifications are for Vcc from 0V to 5.25V. In other words, Unibus devices > can't load the bus more when they're not powered. Almost all proposed > alternatives to the DEC-recommended chips do not meet that requirement. I don't see any such requirement in the spec. And it would be odd to have one; I can't think of anyone who would expect a PDP11 to work with part of its devices powered down. For one thing, if the box with the terminator loses power, you don't just have unpowered I/O cards, you have no power on the terminator. paul From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 19:08:02 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:08:02 -0700 Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software Message-ID: Folks, there appears to be a large GRiD-sized hole where archived copies of the Compass Computer Operating System software should be. For those not aware, GRiD had an OS product that was quite advanced for the time- with bitmapped graphics, multitasking, a beautiful forms-driven, UI, etc. Unfortunately, nothing but the basic OS seems to be preserved anywhere- no add-on software, not even the utilities needed to format the hard drive. This is a travesty- GRiD made something far more important than PC clone machines, at one time. *** I'm looking for leads on any software products mentioned below, or at this URL: http://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/grid/GRID-1984-PriceList.pdf *** I have been buying manuals for the express purpose of scanning, and have a great deal of coverage, but am short on software. I am not opposed to paying for any of this, nor shipping and returning the original copies to the provider at my own expense. I will certainly put all the images in Bitsavers, if Al is okay with that- otherwise they will be made available through some other means. Any leads on GRiD media is appreciated. Thanks, - Ian GRiDWrite, Management Tools, GRiDVT100, and GRiDbasic have already been preserved. [35], [36] and [37-47] would be incredible to find. REF PRODUCT MODEL VERSION NOTES --- ------------------------- ----- ------- ----- 18 GRiD-OS 110X/112X 29200 3.1.0.A [6] 19 GRiD-OS 113X 29210 3.1.5.D 20 GRiD-OS 110X/112X 29200 3.1.0.A 21 Management Tools 21100 3.1.0 22 GRiDMaster 21231 3.1.7 23 GRiDPaint 21214 3.1.5 24 GRiDWrite 21132 3.1.7 25 GRiDAccess 21212 3.1.7 26 GRiDPlan 3.1.5 27 GRiDPlan II 3.2.1 28 GRiDWrite 21132 3.1.7 29 GRiDVT100/Reformat 21191 3.2 30 GRiDVT100/Reformat 21191 3.1.5 31 GRiD3101/Reformat 21151 [7] 32 GRiD3101/Reformat 21151 3.1.5 [7] 33 GRiDTek4016 21228 36.9.4 [7] 34 GRiDTerm/Reformat 21141 3.1.5 35 GRiDTransfer/Partition 21210 36 GRiDRecord/Playback 3.1.5 37 C-86 23032 3.2.0 38 Pascal-86 23025 0.3.1 [1 COPY SOLD] 39 FORTRAN-86 23015 0.3.0 40 PL/M-86 23030 0.2.7 41 BASIC 3.1.0 [7], [1 COPY SOLD] 42 ASM-86 23031 43 GRiDDebug/Devel. Tools 29300 3.1.7 44 GRiDDebug/Devel. Tools 29300 3.0.0 45 GRiDTask II / Windows 21230 3.2 46 GRiDTask II 21230 3.1.7 47 GRiDTask 21230 3.1.7 48 ROM Builder 2.1.0 [7] 49 ROM: GRiD-OS System 112X 24100 3.1.0 [8] 50 ROM: GRiD-OS System 113X 24180 3.1.5 [8] 51 ROM: GRiD-OS Utilities 21400 3.1.0 [8] 52 ROM: GRiDMaster 3.1.7 [8] 53 ROM: GRiDVT100/Reformat 24150 3.2 [8] 54 ROM: GRiDWrite/Term/Refmt 24140 3.1.5 [8] -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From shatle at nfldinet.com Tue Oct 25 19:19:54 2016 From: shatle at nfldinet.com (Steve Hatle) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:19:54 -0700 Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software Message-ID: <20161025171953.c2b59d11dd1dd28667b9a5c54df6dc23.91bf37f5d8.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software From: Ian Finder Date: Tue, October 25, 2016 7:08 pm To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Folks, there appears to be a large GRiD-sized hole where archived copies of the Compass Computer Operating System software should be. ... -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com >> There's a fairly active GRiD list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rugrid-laptop/ You may wish to cross-post there, or I can if you don't wish to join up. Steve From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 25 19:37:11 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 20:37:11 -0400 Subject: PDP15 panel Message-ID: <7cdbc2.3e3c3ce6.454154b7@aol.com> even with shipping across the pond a great deal if your system is missing one! Ed# In a message dated 10/25/2016 3:15:40 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, linimon at lonesome.com writes: If it were on this side of the pond I'll be all over that. mcl From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 20:16:09 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:16:09 -0700 Subject: Electroluminescent Display aging - Was : Re: Flat panel display rot - "tunnel vision" in electroluminescent and other displays- bad seals. Message-ID: Update: I've swapped the displays and drivers around, and the "tunnel" effect seems to be a property of the panel and not drive electronics. Perhaps they are all high-hour examples? Anyone here an electroluminescent display expert? > > > On Wednesday, July 20, 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > >> No, I'm not convinced the EL repro isn't a driver electronics issue. >> >> I'm just a little confused about why the issue congregates at the edges >> of the displays. Any ideas why that might be? >> >> I may try swapping the panels around this evening if I am feeling brave. >> >> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> On 2016-Jul-20, at 12:52 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >>> >>> > I have a few GRiD compass systems and some are suffering from massively >>> > decreased contrast on the edges of the displays: >>> > >>> > [See the system on the left] >>> > https://www.instagram.com/p/BIGGzUzgat-/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n >>> > >>> > [Or this one:] >>> > http://www.ripstick.com/USCM/images/Grid_Compass_1101_ >>> Laptop_in_Box_002.jpg >>> > >>> > Meanwhile, other EL systems I have- like my HP integral PC- haven't >>> > succumbed to this. >>> > >>> > I have seen similar issues on amLCD displays in my Tadpole, Toshiba and >>> > other machines, so this is something we all may have to confront. >>> > >>> > ------- >>> > >>> > I was wondering if the folks here had theories? >>> > >>> > I'm thinking moisture (or air) might be leaking in from the edges of >>> the >>> > glass panes, perhaps from a compromised seal- sorry for the silly >>> picture >>> > but you can see the composition of the display here: >>> > >>> > https://www.instagram.com/p/6BXaLBtSzd/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n >>> > >>> > Does anyone know how one might prevent this from progressing- storage >>> tips? >>> > >>> > Could it be reversed? >>> > >>> > Better yet, does anyone have ideas on how to rapidly dehydrate the >>> display? >>> > Perhaps there is even a way to re-seal them. >>> > >>> > I think all two-glass-pane displays that don't have a vacuum may >>> eventually >>> > succumb to this. >>> > >>> > Perhaps it is just oxidation and not moisture, but I'd love to hear any >>> > theories. >>> >>> >>> Are you convinced this is a panel problem rather than a driver >>> electronics problem? >>> >>> In one picture it looks like the sort of thing that happens when you >>> have to turn up the brightness (for some types of display), resulting in >>> partial illumination in other areas of the screen. >>> >>> I've never had opportunity to repair or work on EL flat-panel displays, >>> I'm not familiar with the driving techniques and requirements, so this is >>> just a query/guess. (I see it's an X/Y matrix drive scheme, but the >>> voltages & timing & phasing I don't know about.) >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Ian Finder >> (206) 395-MIPS >> ian.finder at gmail.com >> >> > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 25 20:58:47 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 20:58:47 -0500 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <634EA45E-0029-4DD8-8974-D5E892AED0A0@comcast.net> <8ACC91DC-EEBC-4C2C-A296-4C19793573B6@shiresoft.com> <67721F6D-A89D-4D2E-961C-D6A402F08C2E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <58100DD7.6060501@pico-systems.com> On 10/25/2016 03:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> As for the receiver, it seems that a TI 75140 (adjustable threshold line >> receiver) might do the job. >> > The high-level input current spec on that is max 100uA, which exceeds the > DEC specification. > > One thing everyone seems to be ignoring is that the DEC leakage current > specifications are for Vcc from 0V to 5.25V. In other words, Unibus devices > can't load the bus more when they're not powered. Almost all proposed > alternatives to the DEC-recommended chips do not meet that requirement. > I believe this is a holdover from the PDP-8 days. I do not know of any PDP-11 system that would actually tolerate a Unibus peripheral being powered down in the middle of the bus. I am pretty sure that due to the bus grant logic present on nearly every peripheral controller, that powering it down would jam the bus. So, I suspect that for a PDP-11 or VAX Unibus system, this requirement does not really make much sense. Jon From bbrown314 at comcast.net Tue Oct 25 22:36:11 2016 From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (Comcast) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 22:36:11 -0500 Subject: Game master? Message-ID: <4D45CAD9-7628-4D8C-B73F-BE02CF97C51B@comcast.net> Does anyone remember a subscription time sharing system called, I think, "game master". It was at least available and marketed in the chicago area... possibly nationwide. I just wonder if there is any info on what kind of system it ran on and any preserved info etc. Thanks. -Bob From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 25 23:01:51 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 04:01:51 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: <043d01d22e1c$035e9d60$0a1bd820$@bettercomputing.net>, Message-ID: Thanks Pete. The 4051 is working perfectly so far, with a few examples I have typed in. I started a conversation with VintageTek (Dave Brown and Ed Sinclair) to see what they have. I looked at the 'Toaster' schematics here, it should be fairly easy for me to build this one up: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tektronix/405x/ Interesting, the source firmware is in the fiche directory, I have had some fun reading it, the comments are a hoot. Next on the list, I will get a Kraft joystick and build that up, its a simple op amp integrator circuit (the more you move the stick, the faster the voltages ramp to the 4051) thanks for anything you have, its a fun machine. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users The ROM cart your going to want to get never left Tek, it had the capacity to hold all the packs, another one is very high (for a 6800) performance graphics. To use multiple ROMs you will need a 4051 Toaster. That's what we called it. Can't remember if it was a product or not. I may have a couple original packs if I find them I'll extract the contents and put them on bitsavers On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Brad H < vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net> wrote: > Can't see the video (access denied).. but that looked like an exceptionally > nice unit, with the stand to boot! Some day I'd like to have one of those > to go with my Tektronix 6800 board bucket.. but shipping will always be an > issue. > > If you decide to put a video up somewhere public please let me know.. love > watching vids of these ones in action. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy > Dawson > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 7:15 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Tek 40xx computer users > > I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it > works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 > old > daughter was plotting a cat face. > > > https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ > > > I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal > computer, and find additional resources. > > > Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? > > > Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime > clock > and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. > > > I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE > interface working. > > > There was a DC300 tape in the machine: > > > biorithm > > craps > > blackjack > > artillery > > tanks > > weatherwar > > > The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will > transplant the tape. > > > Any resources will be welcome! > > > Randy > > > > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 25 23:04:38 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 04:04:38 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: <043d01d22e1c$035e9d60$0a1bd820$@bettercomputing.net> , Message-ID: I sent Brad Srebink a email on this, lets see if I can get the simulator and his Tek Logo examples. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 40xx computer users Start with this http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?33684-Tek-4051-BASIC-Simulator Tek 4051 BASIC Simulator - Vintage Computer Forum www.vcfed.org I'm working on a Tektronix 4051 BASIC and screen simulator that runs on Windows. It's not complete yet, but I can run some of the statements and perform some simple ... Read the thread carefully, forget about the threads title/subject and you will get close to all the information you need On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > The ROM cart your going to want to get never left Tek, it had the capacity > to hold all the packs, another one is very high (for a 6800) performance > graphics. > > To use multiple ROMs you will need a 4051 Toaster. That's what we called > it. Can't remember if it was a product or not. > > I may have a couple original packs if I find them I'll extract the > contents and put them on bitsavers > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Brad H bettercomputing.net> wrote: > >> Can't see the video (access denied).. but that looked like an >> exceptionally >> nice unit, with the stand to boot! Some day I'd like to have one of those >> to go with my Tektronix 6800 board bucket.. but shipping will always be an >> issue. >> >> If you decide to put a video up somewhere public please let me know.. love >> watching vids of these ones in action. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy >> Dawson >> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 7:15 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Subject: Tek 40xx computer users >> >> I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it >> works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 >> old >> daughter was plotting a cat face. >> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ >> >> >> I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal >> computer, and find additional resources. >> >> >> Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? >> >> >> Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime >> clock >> and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. >> >> >> I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE >> interface working. >> >> >> There was a DC300 tape in the machine: >> >> >> biorithm >> >> craps >> >> blackjack >> >> artillery >> >> tanks >> >> weatherwar >> >> >> The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will >> transplant the tape. >> >> >> Any resources will be welcome! >> >> >> Randy >> >> >> >> >> >> > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 26 05:16:02 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 06:16:02 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <4C4CDB85-969E-4F63-885E-923BC03ACC2A@shiresoft.com> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387 c2fd@verizon.net> <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> <4C4CDB85-969E-4F63-885E-923BC03ACC2A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2e0ab6a8-a854-16e2-e5e5-691c183dcb59@verizon.net> On 10/25/2016 04:24 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On Oct 25, 2016, at 12:40 PM, allison wrote: >>> Also, I think in a previous email you mentioned that the UNIBUS is 240ohm. It?s not. >>> It?s 120ohm. >> My book says no. Qbus is for sure 120. >> > Section 5.2.5 of the PDP-11 UNIBUS spec: > A Unibus segment must always have a Unibus terminator at each end of its > 120-ohm transmission path. > > So, I don?t know how you get a value of anything other than 120-ohms given that > statement. Its not. It may be close but.... What your reading is the terminator value (R1+R2)/R1*R2=120. thats a terminator and its also limited in the range of values because the DEC part can only sink so much and also the terminator has to source current as the driver can't. Likely the line impedance can be in the range of 120 ohms, maybe. I"ll have to drag out a Qbus back-plane and measure it. I don't have any Unibus. As far as the chips themselves. They do NOT match the line impedance as they have a active low value in the 10 ohm range and when in the high state they are just an open or somewhere in the effectively infinite range certainly more than several thousand ohms. That's a terrible mismatch for transmission lines, aka bus. The combination of wacky source impedances and near open load impedance (input current varies with source voltage Vih and Vil) plus parallel capacitance from package and traces on board means that as a load its a horrid mismatch as well. With all that reflections (ringing) are to be expected and the only thing that can help that is the terminator even then only to a point. In short most TTL are no better and those designed to do bus interface are about the same. Also CMOS would be far worse as a receiver and some CMOS makes a better transmitter but they are incompatible with Unibus/Qbus as they actively source current. The only common tech that does line matching especially from that era is ECL, or current mode logic. This is why faster buses are so difficult to make right. And if possible they are to be avoided or made small as possible. Been there and done that,, mixed signal design for the last 40 years. Allison > TTFN - Guy > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 26 04:49:19 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 11:49:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <48ED4C75-0548-4BBC-9A7D-2E35928B47FC@shiresoft.com> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <6ee438f9-f4c1-e882-532e-99ba7387 c2fd@verizon.net> <4BFCCECA-87F4-4DBE-9079-0F0D3FDAEC48@shiresoft.com> <48ED4C75-0548-4BBC-9A7D-2E35928B47FC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > OK, re-reading the first part of section 5.2.5, it?s pretty clear that the Unibus is 120-ohm: > A bus terminator is defined as a Unibus element or part of an element containing > a resistive network which connects to the end of a Unibus segment and matches > the 120-ohm characteristic impedance of the Unibus transmission path. Or to cite another source: PDP11 Bus Handbook page 76 says "A bus segment consists of a terminator, a 120-ohm transmission path (cable) with options having drivers and receivers, and another terminator (in that order)." Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 26 06:38:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers Message-ID: <20161026113802.DC58B18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > Secondary chip marke[t] (only reputable vendors). I'm a little more willing than Guy to troll in disreputable waters (I bought 1K DS8641's from a source in Hong Kong), so I have this: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/TestCardF.jpg which has a bunch of special circuits on it to test chips to make sure they meet specs; e.g. the large potentiometer is so I can vary the input voltage to see where it switches from 0 to 1, etc. > From: Paul Koning > it would be odd to have one; I can't think of anyone who would expect a > PDP11 to work with part of its devices powered down. For one thing, if > the box with the terminator loses power Forget the terminator - as Jon Elson also points out (his email appeared while I was creating this one), any device which uses interrupts, if un-powered, won't pass grants. > From: allison > Bottom line is someday there will be no DEC parts and what then? I > reserve DEC parts for repairing defunct boards for new and unique build > it would be a waste of scarce material. For actual DEC interface IC's like DC003's, sure. Those are hyper-rare. But DS8641's are available in the 10's of thousands, there's no earthly way we could use them all on repairs. Yes, when they run out, we'll have a problem - but I plan to cross than bridge _if_ and when we get to it. Noel From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 26 07:15:29 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 08:15:29 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161026113802.DC58B18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161026113802.DC58B18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <676163bc-df3d-15cb-3751-36b7e72bd429@verizon.net> On 10/26/16 7:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Guy Sotomayor > > > Secondary chip marke[t] (only reputable vendors). > > I'm a little more willing than Guy to troll in disreputable waters (I bought > 1K DS8641's from a source in Hong Kong), so I have this: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/TestCardF.jpg > > which has a bunch of special circuits on it to test chips to make sure they > meet specs; e.g. the large potentiometer is so I can vary the input voltage > to see where it switches from 0 to 1, etc. > > > > From: Paul Koning > > > it would be odd to have one; I can't think of anyone who would expect a > > PDP11 to work with part of its devices powered down. For one thing, if > > the box with the terminator loses power > > Forget the terminator - as Jon Elson also points out (his email appeared > while I was creating this one), any device which uses interrupts, if > un-powered, won't pass grants. > > > > From: allison > > > Bottom line is someday there will be no DEC parts and what then? I > > reserve DEC parts for repairing defunct boards for new and unique build > > it would be a waste of scarce material. > > For actual DEC interface IC's like DC003's, sure. Those are hyper-rare. I have those too. You need them to maintain DEC cards. Then again I have a few of the chipkit proto cards too. > But DS8641's are available in the 10's of thousands, there's no earthly way > we could use them all on repairs. Yes, when they run out, we'll have a > problem - but I plan to cross than bridge _if_ and when we get to it. What vendor and price??? They have been scarce save though resellers that have NOS parts from old stocks and they are not cheap and unpredictable quantities. TI the only source when they consumed National Semi is the listed source has it as obsolete out of production. The second source Signetics went away decades ago before Phillips consumed them. Then I could buy them they are about .86 dollar US, but that was in the early 80s. Every time I see something written suggesting the the 86xx parts are magical I go back to the databooks (National and Signetics from the 70s and the current TI) and find nothing that special or unique. If you have them great, when you run out I'm not giving up the supply I have from DEC. Allison > Noel > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 26 07:43:40 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 08:43:40 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161026113802.DC58B18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161026113802.DC58B18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8542653c-9d2a-657e-ba11-0a2263b5f399@verizon.net> On 10/26/16 7:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > But DS8641's are available in the 10's of thousands, there's no earthly way > we could use them all on repairs. Yes, when they run out, we'll have a > problem - but I plan to cross than bridge _if_ and when we get to it. > > Noel > Actually since about 1987 I've used about 1200 pieces of the 8641 alone repairing boards at the commercial level. Up till recently I had a side business keeping commercial in use pdp-8 and pdp11 system in NC machines. Subs are not possible in that case as its all about pin out and form factor. Same for unique no-DEC boards in that service. There is no choice for them, it has to fit the same hole. And most of the 11s were Qbus as the Unibus machines even minimal sized ones were generally large. No they are scarce, any parts are NOS(new but old stock) of an out of manufacture part. If you going to build a board or three maybe even 20 its not a big deal but its not a reliable source of predictable quality. If you get to the bridge your talking redesign in reality or an expensive buy from unreliable source then testing them in bulk. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 26 08:07:39 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers Message-ID: <20161026130739.BC16518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: allison > What vendor I don't recall, would have to look it up; I turned Guy onto them, and he bought out everything they in stock. > They have been scarce save though resellers that have NOS parts from > old stocks and they are not cheap and unpredictable quantities. Yeah, that vendor said they could get more (apparently from others who still had stocks), but they'd be slightly more expensive. Apparently these people all interact, and deal stuff around. So that figure I was given of 30K in stock is probably not from that one vendor, but across all of them. But since nobody is using these chips in a product (that I know of), I suspect the number is likely to go down only slowly. > Then I could buy them they are about .86 dollar US, but that was in the > early 80s. The ones Guy and I recently bought were about $1 each (I don't recall the exact amount, would have to check). So not cheap, but not ridiculous. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 26 08:14:31 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:14:31 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161026130739.BC16518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161026130739.BC16518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 26, 2016, at 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> ... > > So that figure I was given of 30K in stock is probably not from that one > vendor, but across all of them. But since nobody is using these chips in a > product (that I know of), I suspect the number is likely to go down only > slowly. The trouble with chip resellers is that it's hard to know which ones are legit, and which ones are in the fake chip business. There have been some articles in the trade press about chips being sold with false labels, typically with some sort of chip inside but not anything like what the number on the outside indicated. You might get a memory chip instead of a microprocessor, for example, or a 7400 instead of something more valuable. paul From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Oct 26 08:39:05 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 06:39:05 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <02B299C5-B5F3-4145-B16E-23502C13AC13@shiresoft.com> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <02B299C5-B5F3-4145-B16E-23502C13AC13@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Guy S. Thanks saved me the time to say exactly what you said. For all those that thing designing a driver is a simple thing to do, make your self a simulated Unibus that is 50 feet long, add around 30 'stubs' load it down to the max and show me your 'easy to build' drivers signal quality. On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > On Oct 24, 2016, at 10:37 AM, allison wrote: > > > > On 10/23/16 2:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >> On 10/23/16 11:50 AM, shadoooo wrote: > >> > >>> The problem is that there aren't open drain bus transceivers, but the > >>> problem could be solved simply using input-only and output-only > components, > >>> connecting two in parallel but opposite direction on bidirectional > pins. > >>> > >> The reason for using the old parts is the logic thresholds are unique to > >> the Unibus to handle worst-case bus loading and the termination voltage > they > >> used. > >> > >> > > The voltages are based on TTL levels. What are the unique voltages? > > > > The key was limited leakage current and input current to not load the > bus by inserting or removing > > current from a node (there is a specified maximum in per node and total > nodes). That cover input > > to card devices and bus driver leakage. > > > > Logic low voltage is typical of TTL and the driver device has to sink > that current and meet that value. > > Logic High was set by the terminator devices at 3.36V but the threshold > is lower based on the bus > > receivers. > > > > By late 1970 it was an easy spec to meet, When first used (pdp8e) it > was new and the ICs > > were not so great with leakage current and output device saturation > current. > > > > Every time this comes up the world is supposed to stop if not met. The > LSI-11 bus (qbus) > > was actually harder as it was 120 ohm terminated and HeathKit did it > with common TTL > > and the CPU was DEC standard LSI-11 and it worked out to 18 slot > backplanes. > > > > > > The biggest concern is when interfacing to UNIBUS. In the PDP-11 UNIBUS > Design Description > document on Bitsavers, page 4-1 indicates what the Unibus interface chips > are and what are *not* > recommended (8640, 8641 and 8881 are the only ones recommended). > > There are a number of rules that must be adhered to when building out a > Unibus system. These > include: > Maximum cable length must be < 50? > Maximum DC loading < 20 > Maximum lumped loading < 20 > There are rules where cable lengths must be *increased* to avoid > reflections. > > A single Unibus can be divided into multiple segments. Each segment must > adhere to the above > rules, so you can see that a Unibus can be quite large. > > For example, my PDP-11/40 resides in 2 BA11-F boxes (23? tall) and are > fully populated with > Unibus backplanes (5 9 slot backplanes each) with a BA11-15 (15? cable) > connecting the two. > > My point here is that the Unibus has a very different electrical > environment than Q-bus or Omnibus > and what may work for them will probably have troubles on a Unibus. > > TTFN - Guy > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 26 08:43:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers Message-ID: <20161026134359.622E318C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > The trouble with chip resellers is that it's hard to know which ones are > legit, and which ones are in the fake chip business. I suspect that the network of major resellers would tend to keep out the riff-raff. (They don't need the aggro of dealing with the consequences.) > a 7400 instead of something more valuable. Which is why it's good that the DS8641's are going for little more than a buck; at that price point, there's only minimal benefit from faking them. Anyway, for any I get, random samples go straight into my tester board! "Trust, but verify!" :-) Noel From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 26 09:02:13 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 16:02:13 +0200 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <8fbcd83b-9750-d069-37a2-855cba63 3d37@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <277be129-dc23-b392-7ddb-8d2176da3e44@hachti.de> Hi, On 10/25/2016 10:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Secondary chip marked (only reputable vendors). I currently have ~2500 8641 > and several 100?s of the other variants. Assuming 100% good parts, I have > enough stock to build at least 100 unibus boards (total) of various types that I > have planned. > > And to forestall any questions on the topic, no I will not be selling any of the > chips individually. They are there to allow me to build/sell the various Unibus > boards. Very enlightening. You're hoarding interface ICs with commercial second thoughts while deeming any usable alternative as not working crap. Sounds quite coherent! BTW Why isn't there a separate list "ccbusinterfacechip" where those recurring 8881 discussions can be separated from the more interesting stuff? I just can't imagine that it should be a real problem to build working Unibus equipment without the old chips. The Unibus design is from 1 9 7 0 (or around that). Just read that sentence loud. Kind regards Philipp From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Oct 26 09:14:36 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:14:36 -0700 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <277be129-dc23-b392-7ddb-8d2176da3e44@hachti.de> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> < a3608b64-77af-5147-ac0b-bab9ee0cceb3@jetnet.ab.ca> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <8fbcd83b-9750-d069-37a2-855cba63 3d37@jetnet.ab.ca> <277be129-dc23-b392-7ddb-8d2176da3e44@hachti.de> Message-ID: <87549C5A-E2A6-4119-ABD0-CF75135C7980@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 26, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi, > > On 10/25/2016 10:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Secondary chip marked (only reputable vendors). I currently have ~2500 8641 >> and several 100?s of the other variants. Assuming 100% good parts, I have >> enough stock to build at least 100 unibus boards (total) of various types that I >> have planned. >> >> And to forestall any questions on the topic, no I will not be selling any of the >> chips individually. They are there to allow me to build/sell the various Unibus >> boards. > > Very enlightening. > You're hoarding interface ICs with commercial second thoughts while deeming any usable alternative as not working crap. Sounds quite coherent! > I?m saying I won?t use another alternative until that alternative has been proven to work in large scale systems. I have enough troubles with getting my Unibus systems to work with BC11A cables (which have always been marginal even ?back in the day?). Too much of the discussions on Unibus interfacing has been ?hey, I?ll use (fill in the blank) chips I have, it should work?. I?ll shut up about it when someone does an actual engineered design. > BTW Why isn't there a separate list "ccbusinterfacechip" where those recurring 8881 discussions can be separated from the more interesting stuff? > > I just can't imagine that it should be a real problem to build working Unibus equipment without the old chips. Because AFAIK, no one has done the actual engineering to come up with reliable replacements. As I said, until that?s done I?ll stick with the old chips. BTW, with modern designs (i.e. 3.3v I/Os) using the old interface chips is a pain. First they?re 5v I/Os and 2nd they don?t do tri-state. So you need a 2nd set of interface chips that are 5v tolerant and convert the I/Os (at least the ones you care about to tri-state. I spend more board area and parts count on interfacing to the Unibus than actually implementing what I want. For example, the MEM11A board has 3 active parts that are actually doing the work, all of the rest of the board and parts (over a dozen) are for interfacing to the unibus. TTFN - Guy From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 09:18:36 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:18:36 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <277be129-dc23-b392-7ddb-8d2176da3e44@hachti.de> References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <277be129-dc23-b392-7ddb-8d2176da3e44@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 26 October 2016 at 10:02, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > BTW Why isn't there a separate list "ccbusinterfacechip" where those > recurring 8881 discussions can be separated from the more interesting stuff? > The discussion is enlightening. It would be nice, however, to summarize the various conclusions into, say, a Wiki page (isn't there a classic computers Wiki out there?). That way the discussion needn't be rehashed ever so often like it always does. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From jsw at ieee.org Wed Oct 26 09:28:25 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:28:25 -0500 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <79b1f11f-00ff-d551-adfc-3ac30358a012@bitsavers.org> <03a74dff-6cdf-b6a7-32c0-f6d3c23dc7f9@verizon.net> <0c67671a-1db5-bbb1-4b58-3106a7c65c3d@froghouse.org> <73347AB5-B025-48D7-B59B-48C92BD70D69@shiresoft.com> <277be129-dc23-b392-7ddb-8d2176da3e44@hachti.de> Message-ID: > On Oct 26, 2016, at 9:18 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > On 26 October 2016 at 10:02, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> BTW Why isn't there a separate list "ccbusinterfacechip" where those >> recurring 8881 discussions can be separated from the more interesting stuff? >> > The discussion is enlightening. It would be nice, however, to > summarize the various conclusions into, say, a Wiki page (isn't there > a classic computers Wiki out there?). That way the discussion needn't > be rehashed ever so often like it always does. > See www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/interfacing/chips.html for starters Jerry From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Oct 26 09:50:39 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:50:39 -0700 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <956269E0-78F7-44D9-9A9F-8E5A0A6B6ACB@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <97D847BA-2EDC-4FFF-B2AF-7FAD68498AD7@nf6x.net> > On Oct 25, 2016, at 12:59, Terry Stewart wrote: > Lovely. I'm sure the sloping wood-(veener) sided case design of the Dick > Smith System 80 was inspired by the SOL. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_s80-mk1-front-800.jpg Oh yes, the styling is clearly very similar. I like the built-in tape drive. Do you think that was likely inspired by the Commodore Pet? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 26 09:54:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers Message-ID: <20161026145414.AA91218C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Very enlightening. > You're hoarding interface ICs with commercial second thoughts If you think either Guy, or Dave and I, expect to make much money selling the QBUS/UNIBUS boards we are working on, you are seriously confused. None of us are in this as a money-making exercise; there are easier ways to make a lot more money. And as to the hoarding, if you'd like to buy up a couple of thousand yourself, from that miniscule stockpile of 30K units that Guy and I have left out there for you all, please let me know, and I'll expidite over a name, phone number, and email for you to contact. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 26 10:29:42 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 11:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <20161026130739.BC16518C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201610261529.LAA14993@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The trouble with chip resellers is that it's hard to know which ones are leg$ And then there are the periodic mentions of supposed chip vendors who ask you what package and what pin count when you ask them for a part that has never existed except in one version. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 26 10:43:38 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 11:43:38 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161026145414.AA91218C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161026145414.AA91218C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5545ce48-60fa-8cd3-78b1-385d909532b4@verizon.net> On 10/26/16 10:54 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Philipp Hachtmann > > > Very enlightening. > > You're hoarding interface ICs with commercial second thoughts > > If you think either Guy, or Dave and I, expect to make much money selling the > QBUS/UNIBUS boards we are working on, you are seriously confused. None of us > are in this as a money-making exercise; there are easier ways to make a lot > more money. I was making money, not on part but refubished and tested boards. Allison > And as to the hoarding, if you'd like to buy up a couple of thousand yourself, > from that miniscule stockpile of 30K units that Guy and I have left out there > for you all, please let me know, and I'll expidite over a name, phone number, > and email for you to contact. > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 26 11:40:23 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 12:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers Message-ID: <20161026164023.1DA1F18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Re: DEC bus transceivers > From: allison > Actually since about 1987 I've used about 1200 pieces of the 8641 alone > repairing boards at the commercial level. Well, that's over almost 30 years - and your total from that period is about 4% of the remaining stock (and in a commercial operation, to boot, not hobbyist)... > If you going to build a board or three maybe even 20 its not a big deal > but its not a reliable source of predictable quality. Sure, but try looking at it from our perspective: we either use an out-of-production part, or have to design something (almost certainly from discretes) that meets those specs; and we actually looked at the latter (viz. Dave B's design). However, after some pondering, and taking everything (including all the below) into account, we decided to go with the original chips, since they were still sorta available. Which is why both we and Guy have stocked up on them, at the start of the process: we don't want to crank out boards designed for a certain part, and then not be able to get the out-of-production parts the boards were designed to use. If we were designing something for serious production, that wouldn't be an option, but for limited-volume hobbyist use, it is. The choice of an out-of-production part does have a down-side, but it's minor (and mostly alleviated by the pre-buying), and the other options were (in overall sum) worse. > If you get to the bridge your talking redesign in reality or an > expensive buy from unreliable source then testing them in bulk. But, but... I'm _already_ buying them from unreliable sources, then testing them! :-) But to be serious - if the demand for QSIC's, etc, runs the well of DS8641's dry, yes, we'll probably have to re-design. In other words, we'd be right where we'd be today if we decided not to use out-out-production parts. Noel From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 12:32:40 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:32:40 -0700 Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have not had good luck with the RuGRiD list. I am aware of it. There are only a small handful of people there with Compass gear; It is mostly centered around the later PC-compatible GRiD stuff. There is one fellow with quite a lot of Compass media who has reached out to me a couple times, but I don't get the drift he sees any urgency in imaging the media, nor intends to share it. I have offered a hand, money, etc. If he does come through, I'll be very pleased, but at this point I am trying to look elsewhere. Steve, if you're willing to cross-post my list below and see if you have better luck, please do. I have never received a single response of value on that list. - Ian On Tuesday, October 25, 2016, Steve Hatle > wrote: > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System > Software > From: Ian Finder > Date: Tue, October 25, 2016 7:08 pm > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Folks, there appears to be a large GRiD-sized hole where archived copies > of > the Compass Computer Operating System software should be. > > ... > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > >> > > There's a fairly active GRiD list at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rugrid-laptop/ > > You may wish to cross-post there, or I can if you don't wish to join up. > > Steve > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:32:14 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 15:32:14 -0400 Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I have not had good luck with the RuGRiD list. I am aware of it. > > There are only a small handful of people there with Compass gear; It is > mostly centered around the later PC-compatible GRiD stuff. > > Jut for the record, I took a look, I have a copy of GRID OS 3.1.0 A and Management tools 3.1.0 on 5 1/4". These are found in the back of my Managment Tools Reference April 1984 Bill From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Oct 26 16:25:57 2016 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:25:57 +1300 Subject: Reasonable price for a complete SOL-20 system? In-Reply-To: <97D847BA-2EDC-4FFF-B2AF-7FAD68498AD7@nf6x.net> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <956269E0-78F7-44D9-9A9F-8E5A0A6B6ACB@nf6x.net> <97D847BA-2EDC-4FFF-B2AF-7FAD68498AD7@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > > >Oh yes, the styling is clearly very similar. I like the built-in tape > drive. Do you think that was likely inspired by the Commodore Pet? > It could have been. I think EACA were looking at something people could just pick up, take home and use without extra cables and "other bits". This is why as well as a built-in tape deck there was also and RF modulator, so it could be plugged straight into a (or "the) home TV. Terry (Tez) From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:02:12 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:02:12 -0400 Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ian, This is a little pricey but this came up on Craigslist recently. http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/sys/5839406174.html Looks to be lots of documentation but I don't know the seller nor am I even close by. Maybe a group buy might net the manuals/software. I'd be in for the Compass 1109 but who knows the condition of the equipment. Santo On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 3:32 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > I have not had good luck with the RuGRiD list. I am aware of it. > > > > There are only a small handful of people there with Compass gear; It is > > mostly centered around the later PC-compatible GRiD stuff. > > > > > Jut for the record, I took a look, I have a copy of GRID OS 3.1.0 A and > Management tools 3.1.0 on 5 1/4". These are found in the back of my > Managment Tools Reference April 1984 > > Bill > From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:10:25 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 17:10:25 -0700 Subject: Looking for informer 213 VT100 roms Message-ID: I picked up an Informer 213 from eBay this week, but it has the IBM rom set! Noooooo! Anyone out there with the VT100 version willing to dump the roms for me? Thanks, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:58:30 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:58:30 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? Message-ID: I don't see these manuals online at either bitsavers.org or hpmuseum.net. Does anyone have copies of them available? 12044-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual (12044A for A/L-Series) 12825-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual (12825A for M/E/F-Series) I have more than one HP-1000 CPU. Just curious what it would take to connect some of them together running 91750A DS/1000-IV software. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 26 21:19:17 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 22:19:17 -0400 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161026164023.1DA1F18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161026164023.1DA1F18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/26/2016 12:40 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Re: DEC bus transceivers > > From: allison > > > Actually since about 1987 I've used about 1200 pieces of the 8641 alone > > repairing boards at the commercial level. > > Well, that's over almost 30 years - and your total from that period is about > 4% of the remaining stock (and in a commercial operation, to boot, not > hobbyist)... Its also a lot of boards fixed and sold. It was a good second income. that has consumed about 40% of what i have and that doesn't include the rare like DC03/4/5/10 and others some more common like DLART, T11, DCK-11-series, and w95xx boards. I had the gift of being a central engineering milrat at DEC. So many of the design protocols for many of the DEC buses are hardwired in my brain. They were building systems not just boards. > > If you going to build a board or three maybe even 20 its not a big deal > > but its not a reliable source of predictable quality. > > Sure, but try looking at it from our perspective: we either use an > out-of-production part, or have to design something (almost certainly from > discretes) that meets those specs; and we actually looked at the latter (viz. > Dave B's design). However, after some pondering, and taking everything > (including all the below) into account, we decided to go with the original > chips, since they were still sorta available. If you use the DEC part you don't have to design, its plug and go. Design means you evaluated something and its application and went with it as it met the defined need. I've done the latter and have many tubes of parts that work quite well. All the designs I did that were unique ground up used those as the packages work as expected. The key is thresholds and current sink. Having measured parts both dynamic and static I have a good feel for what will work in all but the pathological cases. For the pathological cases the biggest issue is current sink. But like I said there are systems I run and do not to try and make meet DEC supportable configuration standards which means things like third party cards and one-offs and those that are museum level stock to the bone. > Which is why both we and Guy have stocked up on them, at the start of the > process: we don't want to crank out boards designed for a certain part, and > then not be able to get the out-of-production parts the boards were designed > to use. > > If we were designing something for serious production, that wouldn't be an > option, but for limited-volume hobbyist use, it is. The choice of an > out-of-production part does have a down-side, but it's minor (and mostly > alleviated by the pre-buying), and the other options were (in overall sum) > worse. > > > If you get to the bridge your talking redesign in reality or an > > expensive buy from unreliable source then testing them in bulk. > > But, but... I'm _already_ buying them from unreliable sources, then testing > them! :-) Therein lies the problem. My purchase was back when the largest network was still owned by DEC. and it was the year they were just EOL'ed (every one was doing last time buys with lead times of twenty plus weeks. I've dealt in the grey market and for other things I can say often the profit taking is extreme and they know the barrel your over. > > But to be serious - if the demand for QSIC's, etc, runs the well of DS8641's > dry, yes, we'll probably have to re-design. In other words, we'd be right > where we'd be today if we decided not to use out-out-production parts. Likely the redesign would be more along the line of different package (maybe smaller) and the odd inversion or not. Allison From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 21:31:00 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 19:31:00 -0700 Subject: Need to archive: GRiD Compass Computer Operating System Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I already bought the 1109 and most of the docs :) It's what prompted my post here. The docs are great, but there is not much software. The seller is a good guy, very easy to work with- did a great job letting me know what's there and what's not. I passed on any docs I have dupes of. On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Hi Ian, > > This is a little pricey but this came up on Craigslist recently. > > http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/sys/5839406174.html > > Looks to be lots of documentation but I don't know the seller nor am I even > close by. Maybe a group buy might net the manuals/software. I'd be in for > the Compass 1109 but who knows the condition of the equipment. > > Santo > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 3:32 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Ian Finder > wrote: > > > > > I have not had good luck with the RuGRiD list. I am aware of it. > > > > > > There are only a small handful of people there with Compass gear; It is > > > mostly centered around the later PC-compatible GRiD stuff. > > > > > > > > Jut for the record, I took a look, I have a copy of GRID OS 3.1.0 A and > > Management tools 3.1.0 on 5 1/4". These are found in the back of my > > Managment Tools Reference April 1984 > > > > Bill > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 26 22:05:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:05:56 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500eba7a-92ea-4ed4-9823-c2a2a558733e@bitsavers.org> I've got this. will see about getting it on line On 10/26/16 6:58 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > 12044-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12044A for A/L-Series) > From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:13:22 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 22:13:22 -0500 Subject: Hitachi 303 Analog Computer Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I scanned my copy of the Hitachi 303 manual a few weeks ago. For anyone interested in downloading it, I uploaded it here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8Ow1Wo1rBQUSVdXQU84SWtVRFU Didn't see it on Bitsavers yet, so I thought I would share. Thanks, Kyle From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:31:14 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 22:31:14 -0500 Subject: Hitachi 303 Analog Computer Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mighty right of you, Kyle.. thanks! On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I scanned my copy of the Hitachi 303 manual a few weeks ago. For anyone > interested in downloading it, I uploaded it here: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8Ow1Wo1rBQUSVdXQU84SWtVRFU > > Didn't see it on Bitsavers yet, so I thought I would share. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 23:25:55 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 21:25:55 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm interested too, I have the interfaces. Marc > On Oct 26, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > I don't see these manuals online at either bitsavers.org or hpmuseum.net. > > Does anyone have copies of them available? > > 12044-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12044A for A/L-Series) > > 12825-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12825A for M/E/F-Series) > > > I have more than one HP-1000 CPU. Just curious what it would take to > connect some of them together running 91750A DS/1000-IV software. From daniel.senderowicz at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 00:25:38 2016 From: daniel.senderowicz at gmail.com (Daniel Senderowicz) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2016 22:25:38 -0700 Subject: turbochannel available In-Reply-To: References: <20161022195949.GE4810@arwen.poofy.goof.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the offer but I already abandoned pmax. Regards, Daniel On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Gordon Zaft wrote: > Aaron! I'm interested. > > 164 S. Aspen Dr. > Chandler, AZ 85226 > > > G > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Aaron J. Grier > wrote: > > > I have pmaz SCSI controller, a couple lofis, and a bunch of 8MB pmax+ > > modules that are being threatened with the local electronics recycler. > > > > send me the address of your good home or place of business in the > > continental US states, and I'll spare them that fate. > > > > -- > > Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | > agrier at poofygoof.com > > > > > > -- > Gordon Zaft > Province 35 Governor > Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia Fraternity > gordonzaft at gmail.com > From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 06:50:13 2016 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 22:50:13 +1100 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: <500eba7a-92ea-4ed4-9823-c2a2a558733e@bitsavers.org> References: <500eba7a-92ea-4ed4-9823-c2a2a558733e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I'm happy to put it up on the HPmuseum.net website when you have it scanned. David Collins Sent from out of the office > On 27 Oct. 2016, at 2:05 pm, Al Kossow wrote: > > I've got this. will see about getting it on line > > >> On 10/26/16 6:58 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> 12044-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual >> (12044A for A/L-Series) >> > From dogaschesswarrior at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 10:10:03 2016 From: dogaschesswarrior at gmail.com (Mike Haas) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 11:10:03 -0400 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congrats on your new Tek. My 4051 pile came from came indirectly from Gary Spence, who had inhouse involvement with the model. (can't locate his bio at the moment) Here's what I got... somewhere: 4051, 2x 4907 Dual 8" floppys, and the "System Test Fixture" front panel, a box of DC300 tapes "GAS 6800" - a Homebrew 4051 (maybe a prototype 4051 ???) and these paks: RS232 I/O compak dual port memorypack UNIBURN EPROM burner pack VIDEOFRAME digitizer GPIB Enhancement rompack RS232 Printer Interface Parallel Interface Rompack Switch Data Communications Interface 8k Rom pack Addressable Data Tracking backpack IC Analyzer Editor Pack Filemanager Pack Binary Program Loader Pack Signal Processor Pack Service Pack Pack extender board a few empty packs and several wired edges On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I bought the Tek 4051 on ebay today; Jason brought it to my house and it > works perfectly, with about a half hour of programming instruction my 12 > old daughter was plotting a cat face. > > > https://www.facebook.com/Thelma.Franco/videos/10154277153852670/ > > > I would like to get in touch with other users of this first personal > computer, and find additional resources. > > > Do you know where I can find an archive of BASIC programs for this? > > > Has anybody built plug in cards in the back, mine came with a realtime > clock and a "file manager", I do not know what that one does. > > > I have some Tek scopes with IEE-488, and I will see if I can get the IEEE > interface working. > > > There was a DC300 tape in the machine: > > > biorithm > > craps > > blackjack > > artillery > > tanks > > weatherwar > > > The belt is broken in the tape, I have ordered some new DC300's and will > transplant the tape. > > > Any resources will be welcome! > > > Randy > > > > > From rickb at bensene.com Thu Oct 27 10:49:58 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 08:49:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A48D@mail.bensene.com> Mike Hass wrote regarding his treasure trove of 4051 stuff: >4051, 2x 4907 Dual 8" floppys, and the "System Test Fixture" front panel, a box of DC300 tapes >"GAS 6800" - a Homebrew 4051 (maybe a prototype 4051 ??? Very cool stuff. Let's see some pictures posted of the Test Fixture front panel. I had heard of the existence of these, which essentially was a lights and switches front panel that allowed exam & deposit of memory, as well as single-stepping of the 6800 in the 4051. One thing I often wondered...would this work on a 4052? Would also love to see pix of the "GAS 6800". Could well be a prototype.... Seeing it, I may be able to confirm if it is. > and these paks: > dual port memorypack > UNIBURN EPROM burner pack > VIDEOFRAME digitizer > GPIB Enhancement rompack > RS232 Printer Interface > Parallel Interface > Data Communications Interface > Addressable Data Tracking backpack > IC Analyzer > Editor Pack > Filemanager Pack > Binary Program Loader Pack > Signal Processor Pack > Service Pack Any of the ROMpacks that you have that haven't already had their firmware dumped out, should be captured if at all possible and place up on BitSavers....hint, hint. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 27 13:26:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 11:26:40 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39bf8a39-9112-f3f8-88b0-14f7a7173caa@bitsavers.org> Both are uploaded along with a couple others that used the z80 card The mirrors should have them in about an hour On 10/26/16 6:58 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I don't see these manuals online at either bitsavers.org or hpmuseum.net. > > Does anyone have copies of them available? > > 12044-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12044A for A/L-Series) > > 12825-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12825A for M/E/F-Series) > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 13:39:18 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 18:39:18 +0000 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A48D@mail.bensene.com> References: , <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A48D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: This is some really cool stuff! I am also chatting with Dave Brown (exTek, and VintageTek museum volunteer to dig up their resources. Anything that comes up from all this begging will of course be posted to bitsavers. Thanks guys! Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rick Bensene Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 8:49 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Tek 40xx computer users Mike Hass wrote regarding his treasure trove of 4051 stuff: >4051, 2x 4907 Dual 8" floppys, and the "System Test Fixture" front panel, a box of DC300 tapes >"GAS 6800" - a Homebrew 4051 (maybe a prototype 4051 ??? Very cool stuff. Let's see some pictures posted of the Test Fixture front panel. I had heard of the existence of these, which essentially was a lights and switches front panel that allowed exam & deposit of memory, as well as single-stepping of the 6800 in the 4051. One thing I often wondered...would this work on a 4052? Would also love to see pix of the "GAS 6800". Could well be a prototype.... Seeing it, I may be able to confirm if it is. > and these paks: > dual port memorypack > UNIBURN EPROM burner pack > VIDEOFRAME digitizer > GPIB Enhancement rompack > RS232 Printer Interface > Parallel Interface > Data Communications Interface > Addressable Data Tracking backpack > IC Analyzer > Editor Pack > Filemanager Pack > Binary Program Loader Pack > Signal Processor Pack > Service Pack Any of the ROMpacks that you have that haven't already had their firmware dumped out, should be captured if at all possible and place up on BitSavers....hint, hint. From JoshD at livingcomputers.org Thu Oct 27 15:22:42 2016 From: JoshD at livingcomputers.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 20:22:42 +0000 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Hi all -- Just wanted to let you guys know that a new version of the Xerox Alto emulator I've been working on at the LCM+L has been released; V1.1 of ContrAlto can be downloaded from: http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. At this point, the vast majority of software appears to be working properly, if you do run into any issues please let me know! ContrAlto is open source, so if you want to hack on it the source is available on our GitHub site at https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto. Thanks! - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:50:44 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 13:50:44 -0700 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released Message-ID: (Apologies if this gets posted twice, e-mail changes appear to have lost the first one...) Hi all -- Just wanted to let you guys know that a new version of the Xerox Alto emulator I've been working on at the LCM+L has been released. V1.1 of ContrAlto can be downloaded from: http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. At this point, the vast majority of software appears to be working properly, if you do run into any issues please let me know! ContrAlto is open source, so if you want to hack on it the source is available on our GitHub site at https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto. Thanks! - Josh From danielolsson at linuxmail.org Thu Oct 27 17:49:18 2016 From: danielolsson at linuxmail.org (Daniel Olsson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 00:49:18 +0200 Subject: DEC DS10L Fix CPUFan! Message-ID: Hey! Has anyone fixed a CPUfan on a DS10L that is rattleing by lubricating it in someway? Or do i need to buy a new fan for it? /Daniel From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 27 20:28:48 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 20:28:48 -0500 Subject: DEC DS10L Fix CPUFan! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5812A9D0.1010704@pico-systems.com> On 10/27/2016 05:49 PM, Daniel Olsson wrote: > Hey! > > Has anyone fixed a CPUfan on a DS10L that is rattleing by > lubricating it in someway? Or do i need to buy a new fan > for it? > If the fans are sleeve bearing, it may be possible to re-lube the bearing. If the bearing is badly worn and loose, then lube won't help it. You generally peel off a label to reveal the bearing cover. You have to disassemble the bearing to clean the gunk off the shaft, and put a lot of oil on the cotton packing to the outside of the bearing. If ball bearing, oil will quiet it for a few days, but you really have to replace the ball bearing units for a permanent fix. Boca Bearings has all sorts of tiny bearings that fit fans, just measure them and order. Jon From spedraja at ono.com Thu Oct 27 16:25:32 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 23:25:32 +0200 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-10-27 22:50 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch : > ContrAlto can be downloaded from: > http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. > > Thanks! > > - Josh Hi. I'm trying to reach http://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx but it returns a DNS error. Regards Sergio. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 16:38:39 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:38:39 -0700 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 2:25 PM, SPC wrote: > 2016-10-27 22:50 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch : > > > ContrAlto can be downloaded from: > > http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. > > > > Thanks! > > > > - Josh > > Hi. I'm trying to reach > http://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > but it returns a DNS error. > > Regards > Sergio. > Thanks. It looks like the download link for the emulator is pointing at an internal address for some reason; I'll poke some people and get that fixed... - Josh From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 00:54:08 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 18:54:08 +1300 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:25 AM, SPC wrote: > 2016-10-27 22:50 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch : > >> ContrAlto can be downloaded from: >> http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. >> >> Thanks! >> >> - Josh > > Hi. I'm trying to reach > http://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > but it returns a DNS error. > > Regards > Sergio. In the meantime manually demunging the URL to: http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx appears to work. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From lars at nocrew.org Fri Oct 28 00:40:12 2016 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 07:40:12 +0200 Subject: Continuous integration for Incompatile Timesharing System In-Reply-To: <5812A9D0.1010704@pico-systems.com> (Jon Elson's message of "Thu, 27 Oct 2016 20:28:48 -0500") References: <5812A9D0.1010704@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <86y419c9qb.fsf_-_@molnjunk.nocrew.org> This builds a small system from tapes, and assembles ITS using MIDAS. https://travis-ci.org/PDP-10/its/builds Do you have any patches for ITS? Send a pull request on GitHub! From tedknowlegy at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 09:29:02 2016 From: tedknowlegy at gmail.com (Mark Ford) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 10:29:02 -0400 Subject: CMI expandacore18 Message-ID: I too have been searching for documentation/schematics for the Cambridge Memories, Inc. Expandacore18 4k core memory boards. I have an old Diversified Numeric Applications Med PL/185 machine which is a clone of the Raytheon 703. This machine has 16k of core with 4 of these boards. -- THE BLUES IS THE TRUTH. IF IT'S NOT THE TRUTH, IT'S NOT THE BLUES. (Willie Dixon) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 28 07:24:36 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 08:24:36 -0400 Subject: Computers.... AARRRMMMYYY! Computers! Message-ID: <509f40.445c1557.45449d84@aol.com> Here is an interesting article from the ozobob list on 50 yeas of computing in the US Army! http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA431730 About the earliest thing we have militantly computer related in the museum are some parts of the NORAD SAGE system From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 07:56:20 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 08:56:20 -0400 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Just wanted to let you guys know that a new version of the Xerox Alto > emulator I've been working on at the LCM+L has been released; V1.1 of > ContrAlto can be downloaded from: http://www.livingcomputers. > org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. At this point, the vast majority of > software appears to be working properly, if you do run into any issues > please let me know! > > ContrAlto is open source, so if you want to hack on it the source is > available on our GitHub site at https://github.com/ > livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto. > > Thanks! > - Josh > > > > Having trouble reaching a link following through to download from http://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 11:30:11 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 09:30:11 -0700 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 10/28/16 5:56 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Josh Dersch > wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> Just wanted to let you guys know that a new version of the Xerox Alto >> emulator I've been working on at the LCM+L has been released; V1.1 of >> ContrAlto can be downloaded from: http://www.livingcomputers. >> org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. At this point, the vast majority of >> software appears to be working properly, if you do run into any issues >> please let me know! >> >> ContrAlto is open source, so if you want to hack on it the source is >> available on our GitHub site at https://github.com/ >> livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto. >> >> Thanks! >> - Josh >> >> >> >> > Having trouble reaching a link following through to download from > http://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > Yep. Our new website is going through some teething problems. Until they're resolved, use: http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx To download the emulator. Thanks, Josh From JoshD at livingcomputers.org Fri Oct 28 13:13:04 2016 From: JoshD at livingcomputers.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 18:13:04 +0000 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CBAD4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> OK, one more time with feeling, because apparently when I pasted that link it added a bunch of garbage (thanks, Outlook Web Access!). If you want to get ContrAlto, the actual, real, working link is: http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx Sorry for the confusion and/or stupidity on my part... - Josh > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh > Dersch > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 9:30 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: ContrAlto V1.1 Released > > On 10/28/16 5:56 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Josh Dersch > > > > wrote: > > > >> Hi all -- > >> > >> Just wanted to let you guys know that a new version of the Xerox Alto > >> emulator I've been working on at the LCM+L has been released; V1.1 of > >> ContrAlto can be downloaded from: http://www.livingcomputers. > >> org/Join/Online-Systems.aspx. At this point, the vast majority of > >> software appears to be working properly, if you do run into any > >> issues please let me know! > >> > >> ContrAlto is open source, so if you want to hack on it the source is > >> available on our GitHub site at https://github.com/ > >> livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> - Josh > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Having trouble reaching a link following through to download from > > http://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > > > Yep. Our new website is going through some teething problems. Until > they're resolved, use: > > http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > Va7eQPnMcovYMFBZkfQxyQT__TCA..&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.livingcom > puters.org%2fJoin%2fOnline-Systems%2fContraltoSetup.aspx> > > To download the emulator. > > Thanks, > Josh From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 28 13:13:33 2016 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 12:13:33 -0600 Subject: Digital archiving tools In-Reply-To: <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> References: <759970.91950.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D77C151.90005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al, Dredging up an old email thread... In article <4D77C151.90005 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I made a decision a long time ago that the primary mode of storage would > either be media images or uncompressed archive files (tar, or uncompressed > zip, mostly). So, based on the above decision, if you were archiving CD-ROM images, you would store them as uncompressed .iso files? Wikipedia says: "ISO disc images are uncompressed and do not use a particular container format; they are a sector-by-sector copy of the data on an optical disc, stored inside a binary file." Therefore the best way to archive CD-ROM images is to use straight ISO since partial corruption of the file wouldn't corrupt the whole image. Am I following your reasoning correctly? Thanks, -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Terminals Wiki The Computer Graphics Museum Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 13:16:59 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 11:16:59 -0700 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Having trouble reaching a link following through to download fromhttp://prevlcm2.corp.vnw.com/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > > Yep. Our new website is going through some teething problems. Until > they're resolved, use: > > http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx > > > To download the emulator. > > Thanks, > Josh > Annnnd apparently Outlook Web Access completely mangled that URL when I pasted it into Thunderbird this morning. Why? Because apparently technology hates me this week. (For the record the *text* of the link above is fine, but if you're using a fancy-pants mailer the actual hyperlink that's provided is bogus. Sigh.) Here's the real link, for real this time: OK, one more time with feeling, because apparently when I pasted that link it added a bunch of garbage (thanks, Outlook Web Access!). http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx Sorry for the confusion and/or stupidity on my part... - Josh From danielolsson at linuxmail.org Fri Oct 28 15:33:04 2016 From: danielolsson at linuxmail.org (Daniel Olsson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 22:33:04 +0200 Subject: DEC DS10L Fix CPUFan! Message-ID: Hey Jon! Thank you for the tips, i will see if i can open it up in someway, the fan is kinda like a laptop blower style, but a bigger version of it :) I think i will need to buy new bearings for it when i have read on google about the fan. /Daniel From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 20:56:22 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2016 18:56:22 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 9:25 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > I'm interested too, I have the interfaces. > Marc Do you have the M/E/F-Series interfaces, or the A/L-Series interfaces, or both? I currently only have A/L-Series interfaces. Two with the firmware 91750-80008 (2716) and 91750-80009 (2732), and one with firmware 5180-7233 (2764). The manuals I have seen list the HDLC firmware set 91750-80008 and 91750-80009 for both the M/E/F-Series interfaces and the A/L-Series interfaces. I went looking and found a reference to the version 5180-7233 firmware: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/communicator/1000/5961-6201_Dec-1992.pdf Section 3.33.15 PSI Firmware History (page 3-131, page 257 of the PDF) 91750-80008/91750-80009 91750-80008/91750-80021 5180-7233 5181-6113 Has anyone started archiving binaries for various firmware versions for the any of the interfaces, or any microcode and firmware for the A-Series CPUs? I know some of the E/F-Series firmware is on Bitsavers. I currently have 2 different versions of A900 microcode on sequencer boards and 3 different versions of A900 VCP firmware on cache controller boards. I should dumps these sometime. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 23:57:27 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 21:57:27 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: <39bf8a39-9112-f3f8-88b0-14f7a7173caa@bitsavers.org> References: <39bf8a39-9112-f3f8-88b0-14f7a7173caa@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <11de01d230d7$c89deaa0$59d9bfe0$@gmail.com> I dumped the ROMs of the HP 12825 and 12826 (Programmable Serial Interface boards, a customer programmable version of the 12825A) and gave it to Al. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 11:27 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? Both are uploaded along with a couple others that used the z80 card The mirrors should have them in about an hour On 10/26/16 6:58 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I don't see these manuals online at either bitsavers.org or hpmuseum.net. > > Does anyone have copies of them available? > > 12044-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12044A for A/L-Series) > > 12825-90001 HDLC Direct Connect Interface Hardware Reference Manual > (12825A for M/E/F-Series) > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 05:02:53 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 06:02:53 -0400 Subject: ContrAlto V1.1 Released In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CBAD4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CB9B2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E8106299CBAD4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <07cb01d231cb$9dfc3780$d9f4a680$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 2:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: ContrAlto V1.1 Released OK, one more time with feeling, because apparently when I pasted that link it added a bunch of garbage (thanks, Outlook Web Access!). If you want to get ContrAlto, the actual, real, working link is: http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/Online-Systems/ContraltoSetup.aspx Sorry for the confusion and/or stupidity on my part... - Josh ----- Thanks Josh; it's a wonderful contribution. I remember a database being written for the Alto; it used the relational model. I believe that it was related to INGRES, but I have only a hazy recollection and can't remember the name -- although I would likely recognize it anyone else has further information. We used it along with a graphical post-processor to prepare office-assignment floor-plans at CMU in the early 80's. My recollection is that the principal uses for the CMU Altos at that time were as PostScript-based printer-drivers ("Dover" and "Calais" were our name-assignments). Our use in space-planning was a quirk, and possibly the last remaining regular use of the few remaining machines. I definitely don't remember any machine-time contention; I believe that there were two available for general-use. I just brought along my disk-pack and would boot and have-at-it. Never thought about it all becoming (near) ancient history ... paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 07:32:57 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:32:57 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Quick question...I am setting up disks to be imaged from various requests including yours. Do you know the tracks/sectors of the sage disks, off hand? I don't necessarily plan to set up my sage to test the disks, just image the disks, to save time if I knew what settings to use it will increase the chances I get it right the first time. Thanks.. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 14, 2016 3:48 AM, "emanuel stiebler" wrote: > On 2016-10-13 20:00, william degnan wrote: > > I may have some software that is missing from that site, if so I will image >> and upload will let you know >> > > Thanks! > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 29 08:15:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 09:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Booting PDP-11's from RX02's Message-ID: <20161029131549.54CB718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I'm winding up to boot Unix V6 from an RX02 floppy. So I need two things: - Details of how DEC ROM bootstraps boot from RX02's. I vaguely recall seeing documentation of this somewhere (e.g. which sectors it loads, etc), but now I can't find it. Don North has dumps of the RX02 ROM's, but I'm too lazy to read through the code and figure out how they work. Is there some documentation which covers it? I did a quick Google search, but if there is anything out there, my Google-fu was inadequate. - Did anyone ever do an RX02 driver for the V6 disk bootstrap? (Well, I guess a V7 driver would work, too.) Note: what I need is _not_ either i) the Unix OS driver for the RX02 (I found one of those already), or ii) a driver for the v7 standalone second-stage bootstrap (which would probably be in C). The thing I'm looking for would be called rx.s, or something like that. Yes, I could write it, but again, I'm lazy! :-) Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 29 08:54:32 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 07:54:32 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2016-10-29 06:32, william degnan wrote: > Quick question...I am setting up disks to be imaged from various requests > including yours. Do you know the tracks/sectors of the sage disks, off > hand? Sorry, I got my machine finally home two days ago. During transport, it was really bend out of shape, so I will try to check, during the day. The sticker on the outside says something like "80 track", but the drives are not original anymore. (I have two half height 5.25" in it, the early models should have full height) > I don't necessarily plan to set up my sage to test the disks, just > image the disks, to save time if I knew what settings to use it will > increase the chances I get it right the first time. Thanks again! From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 29 08:55:21 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 07:55:21 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2016-10-29 06:32, william degnan wrote: > Quick question... I have one for you too ;-) Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? Cheers From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:41:38 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 21:41:38 -0400 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded Message-ID: I have uploaded a set of disk images from My Compupro system with an 8085 and 8086 card, plus regular z80. The thread starts a number of years ago, but today I just updated, at the bottom, to include images of the disks I have for the system. Some interesting concurrent CPM and DOS stuff, not sure if this is really MS DOS 1.25 or not, never got it to work on my system. I'd love to see someone else make it work. Thread: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=265 Just get the IMD images: http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/COMPUPRO/ As always, thanks Dave Dunfield, please use the images with the proper licenses, etc. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 21:11:30 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > Some interesting concurrent CPM and DOS stuff, not sure if this is really > MS DOS 1.25 or not, never got it to work on my system. I'd love to see > someone else make it work. Can't help with that right now. Sorry. Simplest test for MS-DOS 1.25 would the the dates of the files, particularly IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS. IIRC, 1.25 would be in 1982, maybe June. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 29 21:26:21 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:26:21 -0700 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/29/2016 07:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Can't help with that right now. Sorry. Simplest test for MS-DOS > 1.25 would the the dates of the files, particularly IO.SYS and > MSDOS.SYS. IIRC, 1.25 would be in 1982, maybe June. 1.25 was licensed for OEM customization for quite some time, so dates could well be later, depending on the OEM. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 22:01:09 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 23:01:09 -0400 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 29, 2016 10:27 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 10/29/2016 07:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Can't help with that right now. Sorry. Simplest test for MS-DOS > > 1.25 would the the dates of the files, particularly IO.SYS and > > MSDOS.SYS. IIRC, 1.25 would be in 1982, maybe June. > > 1.25 was licensed for OEM customization for quite some time, so dates > could well be later, depending on the OEM. > > --Chuck > > > Not looking for help, just offering the files to whomever wants to attempt them. A disclaimer that these are as-is, good luck. B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 23:06:16 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 21:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Simplest test for MS-DOS 1.25 would the the dates of the files, >> particularly IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS. IIRC, 1.25 would be in 1982, maybe >> June. On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 1.25 was licensed for OEM customization for quite some time, so dates > could well be later, depending on the OEM. Very true. When was the earliest that a 1.25 was released to OEMs? On the other end, 2.00 came out somewhere around march or April 1983. If the dates are in the right range, then there are other clues, such as matching file sizes. Starting with 2.00? there was a version number buried in the code, and the VER command would print some text, and then calculate what to display for the numbers (major version, period, minor version as a 2 digit decimal number.0 (19h gave .25) But, if 1.25 didn't have that, then somewhere in COMMAND.COM, there might be text saying "MS-DOS 1.25", instead of the later ""MS-DOS ", to be followed by calculated values. Did 1.25 have ANSI.SYS and CONFIG.SYS? For somebody who remembers the detaails of the transition, many of the text messages in COMMAND.COM might be recognizable. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Oct 30 00:18:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:18:14 -0700 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 29, 2016, at 18:41, william degnan wrote: > > I have uploaded a set of disk images from My Compupro system with an 8085 > and 8086 card, plus regular z80. Thanks for sharing! Those images will probably be quite helpful to many folks trying to resurrect vintage Compupro hardware, myself included. One of the links appears to be bad: The filename is "MPM2.1ED", but clicking it just leads to the site index page. I hope you won't hate me for a mild (?) threadjack: I'm looking for either version 2.2R or version 2.2S of the Compupro CPM-80 Master Distribution Disk. I've been told by an experienced Compupro guy that those are the versions I'll want to operate the S-100 system I'm building in interrupt mode rather than polled I/O mode under CP/M-80. All of the images I've found online so far are for earlier versions of Compupro CP/M-80, which I'm told will work in polled mode but lack the interrupt mode support. But what do I know? I'm new to this stuff! The same fellow tells me that Mr. Godbout has never authorized online copying of the Compupro software as some other out-of-print computer manufacturers have, and has been known to express strong disagreement with the practice. To which I naturally reply that I would be quite happy to buy a new copy of Compupro CP/M-80 2.2R/2.2S at full retail list price from the legitimate rights holder rather than downloading an image. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 00:37:06 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 01:37:06 -0400 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2016 1:18 AM, "Mark J. Blair" wrote: > > > > On Oct 29, 2016, at 18:41, william degnan wrote: > > > > I have uploaded a set of disk images from My Compupro system with an 8085 > > and 8086 card, plus regular z80. > > Thanks for sharing! Those images will probably be quite helpful to many folks trying to resurrect vintage Compupro hardware, myself included. > > One of the links appears to be bad: The filename is "MPM2.1ED", but clicking it just leads to the site index page. > > I hope you won't hate me for a mild (?) threadjack: I'm looking for either version 2.2R or version 2.2S of the Compupro CPM-80 Master Distribution Disk. I've been told by an experienced Compupro guy that those are the versions I'll want to operate the S-100 system I'm building in interrupt mode rather than polled I/O mode under CP/M-80. All of the images I've found online so far are for earlier versions of Compupro CP/M-80, which I'm told will work in polled mode but lack the interrupt mode support. But what do I know? I'm new to this stuff! > > The same fellow tells me that Mr. Godbout has never authorized online copying of the Compupro software as some other out-of-print computer manufacturers have, and has been known to express strong disagreement with the practice. To which I naturally reply that I would be quite happy to buy a new copy of Compupro CP/M-80 2.2R/2.2S at full retail list price from the legitimate rights holder rather than downloading an image. > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > Mark It sounds like you have a similar system to mine. I'd expect you to be able to boot the cpm86 or cpm 86 gg disks. The one disk that does not download may have a typo in the file extension Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Oct 30 00:38:35 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:38:35 -0700 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 29, 2016, at 22:37, william degnan wrote: > > Mark > It sounds like you have a similar system to mine. I'd expect you to be > able to boot the cpm86 or cpm 86 gg disks. The one disk that does not > download may have a typo in the file extension It's a Z-80 system. I can't use CP/M-86 on that, can I? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 02:03:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 00:03:22 -0700 Subject: Compupro Disk Images Uploaded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f08ae47-9fed-4680-aec5-9be9b0880e6d@sydex.com> On 10/29/2016 09:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Starting with 2.00? there was a version number buried in the code, > and the VER command would print some text, and then calculate what > to display for the numbers (major version, period, minor version as a > 2 digit decimal number.0 (19h gave .25) But, if 1.25 didn't have > that, then somewhere in COMMAND.COM, there might be text saying > "MS-DOS 1.25", instead of the later ""MS-DOS ", to be followed by > calculated values. Did 1.25 have ANSI.SYS and CONFIG.SYS? > > For somebody who remembers the detaails of the transition, many of > the text messages in COMMAND.COM might be recognizable. My recollection of 1.25 was that it had foreign language (at lead code-page type support) where 1.1 did not. It lasted longer than it should have. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 15:53:16 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, tony duell wrote: > As you have the machine, and it boots, check the DIP switch settings. > One of the switches is used to indicate if the boot drive is 40 or 80 > cylinder. and the model number(s) of the drives will enable looking up hints as the specs (although some TM100-4M (100tpi) drives were labelled "TM100-4" (96tpi)). Some of my drives ended up with labels on the faceplates. For CP/M 2.x, CP/M-68K run STAT DSK: For CP/M 3.0/"PLUS" IIRC, SHOW DRIVE That'll give you some hints of the drive and parameters. There should be a KERMIT available, although machine specific overlay might not be. Getting it onto the machine is another minor project. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:08:18 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 17:08:18 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Oct 29, 2016 4:53 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, tony duell wrote: >> >> As you have the machine, and it boots, check the DIP switch settings. One of the switches is used to indicate if the boot drive is 40 or 80 cylinder. > > > and the model number(s) of the drives will enable looking up hints as the specs (although some TM100-4M (100tpi) drives were labelled "TM100-4" (96tpi)). Some of my drives ended up with labels on the faceplates. > > For CP/M 2.x, CP/M-68K run STAT DSK: > For CP/M 3.0/"PLUS" IIRC, SHOW DRIVE > That'll give you some hints of the drive and parameters. > > Of course, but I just wanted to do this guy a favor and image the disks, I did not want to set up my system and get all into it and whether I have 80 or 40 track drives, and what image disk settings to use..busy week. From ron at ronnatalie.com Sat Oct 29 16:32:18 2016 From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 17:32:18 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <20161029131549.54CB718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161029131549.54CB718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <005601d2322b$ee6bf240$cb43d6c0$@ronnatalie.com> I think just like everything else the boot rom just pulls in the first sector of the disk. I had RX02s on many of the BRL Gateways (my implementation that replaced your MIT Gateway while you were in exile). We put a V6 file system and I must have had a regular V6 boot block on it with a RX02. There might be someone still at BRL who might remember where this stuff is. I certainly don't have it. BRL PDP-11 kernels had both V6 and V7 file systems in them but I'd have to believe I was booting off a V6 one. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Oct 29 16:32:10 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:32:10 +0100 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <28177934-fffa-7f01-3bee-5439aabcd10d@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2016 22:08, william degnan wrote: > Of course, but I just wanted to do this guy a favor and image the disks, I > did not want to set up my system and get all into it and whether I have 80 > or 40 track drives, and what image disk settings to use..busy week. If it's any help, all four Sage IIs I've seen had half-height Mitsubishi 80-track DS drives, including the one I have. But that's really a single datum point, as three came from the same place at about the same time, and I suspect the fourth may have come from the same original supplier. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Oct 29 10:21:01 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 11:21:01 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> On 10/29/2016 09:55 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-10-29 06:32, william degnan wrote: >> Quick question... > > I have one for you too ;-) > > Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? yes and there were more than a few modem/terminal programs. Allison > > Cheers > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 10:55:17 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 15:55:17 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com>, Message-ID: > Quick question...I am setting up disks to be imaged from various requests > including yours. Do you know the tracks/sectors of the sage disks, off > hand? I don't necessarily plan to set up my sage to test the disks, just > image the disks, to save time if I knew what settings to use it will > increase the chances I get it right the first time. The Sage II service manual (it's on the web somewhere, I forget where I got it from) impilies that some machines have 40 cylinder drives, others have 80 cylnder drives. I think it is normal to have 2 drives of the same type, but said service manual implies that a machine with one of each type is useful for converting disks. So they could be either 40 or 80 cylinder. In both cases : Double sided (2 heads) 8 sectors/track 512 bytes/sector Normal MFM double density (Of course normal, not high density, data rate). I would think a PC disk controller with the appropriate drives could read them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 10:58:40 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 15:58:40 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: > > Quick question... > > I have one for you too ;-) > > Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? Acrodding to this page : http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/cpm.html there is. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 13:45:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 14:45:16 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 11:58 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > Quick question... > > > > I have one for you too ;-) > > > > Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? > > > Acrodding to this page : > > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/cpm.html > > there is. > > -tony > To know for sure, unless my disks are labeled I will have to set the system up and test each disk, to do it right. My Sage II is here: http://vintagecomputer.net/sage/SageII/ looks like one of the disk drives was swapped out, not sure if I did that or the previous owner. one of the photos has a screen shot of a directory from CP/M, no kermit on that particular disk but certainly I assume Kermit was available for a Sage with CP/M. Not sure if I have it. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 14:09:02 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:09:02 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: > > >To know for sure, unless my disks are labeled I will have to set the system > up and test each disk, to do it right. My Sage II is here: Oh, you're looking for a CP/M-68K kermit. CP/M on its own normally refers to the 8080/Z80 OS. I wondered if you were looking for kermit for some other CP/M machine to use a device to transfer Sage files onto. I believe the Sage was intitially intended to run the UCSD P-system. There is at least one Kermit written in Pascal that could probable be got to run under that. > http://vintagecomputer.net/sage/SageII/ As you have the machine, and it boots, check the DIP switch settings. One of the switches is used to indicate if the boot drive is 40 or 80 cylinder. -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 29 16:56:42 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 15:56:42 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9079b613-5d00-84e4-0416-63a66331e81e@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-29 15:08, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 29, 2016 4:53 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > Of course, but I just wanted to do this guy a favor and image the disks, And he really appreciates that!!! > I did not want to set up my system and get all into it and whether I have 80 > or 40 track drives, and what image disk settings to use..busy week. I finally got to the system, and bend it into shape enough, to get the drives out. So both are 5.25", half height. one is a mitsubishi M4853-342MG, the other TEAC FB-504 Sorry it took me so long to answer the questions ... From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 29 16:57:05 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 14:57:05 -0700 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I don't know if this applies to the SAGE II or not, but 22DISK has two SAGE IV definitions, for 48 tpi and for 96 tpi diskettes, as derived from samples that I have. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:02:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:02:03 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Ok...I'll try it tomorrow and post, you can let me know how it goes. I'll prob figure it out when I analyze the disks using the tools, just not sure if being pascal they have any weirdness Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 29, 2016 5:57 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I don't know if this applies to the SAGE II or not, but 22DISK has two > SAGE IV definitions, for 48 tpi and for 96 tpi diskettes, as derived > from samples that I have. > > --Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 19:05:18 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 17:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <9079b613-5d00-84e4-0416-63a66331e81e@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <9079b613-5d00-84e4-0416-63a66331e81e@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, emanuel stiebler wrote: > So both are 5.25", half height. > one is a mitsubishi M4853-342MG, IIRC, that's a 80track double density drive. (aka "720K", aka "quad density") (the 4854 is the 1.2M version) IIRC, the 4853 was used in the Tandy 2000, so that might be a good place to find the service manual if you need it. > the other TEAC FB-504 TEAC, or TEC? IIRC, TEC FB-504 is 80 track double density. IIRC, the Teac 80track double density is the FD55F (55G is 1.2M, 55FG is intended to be strappable as either) Those should be imagable (is that the right word?) using a PC with 1.2M. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 19:10:05 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 17:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know if this applies to the SAGE II or not, but 22DISK has two > SAGE IV definitions, for 48 tpi and for 96 tpi diskettes, as derived > from samples that I have. The Sage IV sample disks formats in XenoCopy were a CP/M type file system, in 48tpi and 96tpi. We also did a Sage 2 P-system format (but only the 96tpi) I have no idea about Sage II, v Sage IV differences. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 19:14:05 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:14:05 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: IMD can't determine the interleave. I am using a DD drive, not HD. According to this page http://www.thebattles.net/sage/ they're 96TPI - I don't have a system set up for this at the moment. I have the kermit disk for the Sage II though. My B drive has an 8" drive that thinks it's a 720K drive or whatever I did to make it work. b On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 7:02 PM, william degnan wrote: > Ok...I'll try it tomorrow and post, you can let me know how it goes. I'll > prob figure it out when I analyze the disks using the tools, just not sure > if being pascal they have any weirdness > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Oct 29, 2016 5:57 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> I don't know if this applies to the SAGE II or not, but 22DISK has two >> SAGE IV definitions, for 48 tpi and for 96 tpi diskettes, as derived >> from samples that I have. >> >> --Chuck >> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 19:14:44 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 17:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > Ok...I'll try it tomorrow and post, you can let me know how it goes. I'll > prob figure it out when I analyze the disks using the tools, just not sure > if being pascal they have any weirdness not that would matter for imaging. But, of course p-system was a whole different directory structure. Good news, though, is that if you ever have to manually put sectors together, . . . is that p-system files are alway contiguous! P-system would not let you put part of a file in one space on the disk and the rest in another space. They had a p-system utility called "CRUNCH" to defragment the disk. %Deity help you if it crashed while THAT was trying to run! From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 29 19:29:29 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 18:29:29 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <9079b613-5d00-84e4-0416-63a66331e81e@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <815a9e96-b902-96cb-92d0-b4ef8e83bf3e@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-29 18:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> So both are 5.25", half height. >> one is a mitsubishi M4853-342MG, > > IIRC, that's a 80track double density drive. (aka "720K", aka "quad > density") > (the 4854 is the 1.2M version) > IIRC, the 4853 was used in the Tandy 2000, so that might be a good place > to find the service manual if you need it. > > >> the other TEAC FB-504 > TEAC, or TEC? TEC, sorry ! > IIRC, TEC FB-504 is 80 track double density. > IIRC, the Teac 80track double density is the FD55F > (55G is 1.2M, 55FG is intended to be strappable as either) Ok, so both seems to be 80 track ... > Those should be imagable (is that the right word?) using a PC with 1.2M. Is it worth it, to get TEAC 55 for them as replacement? The ones I have, have broken fronts ... From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 19:56:26 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 17:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <815a9e96-b902-96cb-92d0-b4ef8e83bf3e@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <9079b613-5d00-84e4-0416-63a66331e81e@e-bbes.com> <815a9e96-b902-96cb-92d0-b4ef8e83bf3e@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >> IIRC, TEC FB-504 is 80 track double density. >> IIRC, the Teac 80track double density is the FD55F >> (55G is 1.2M, 55FG is intended to be strappable as either) On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, emanuel stiebler wrote: > TEC, sorry ! > Ok, so both seems to be 80 track ... >> Those should be imagable (is that the right word?) using a PC with 1.2M. > > Is it worth it, to get TEAC 55 for them as replacement? > The ones I have, have broken fronts ... If they work OK, I wouldn't worry about the bezel, although a broken bezel is a sign that they haven't been treated gently. Teac 55F would be the ideal Teac to use. Teac55FG would work, but I don't know the jumpers Shugart/Matsushita/etc. 465 For full-height, Tandon Tm100-4 It shouldn't much matter which brand, but until it's working, I'd avoid adding in any more variables. From pete at pski.net Sat Oct 29 21:05:37 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:05:37 -0400 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed Message-ID: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> I?ve recently acquired a rare complete set of 10 TRS-XENIX 1.0 Development System floppy disks. I?ve done quite a bit of 8? disk imaging so I'm fairly comfortable using ImageDisk, cleaning disk heads, etc. I?ve run into a scenario with these disks that I have not had to deal with before. Since this is the only complete set of this software I?ve ever seen, I need to be really careful with how I proceed. The media itself looks pretty good. No scratches, no blotches. However, on a number of disks the sleeves have warped. I am afraid that this will damage the media when I spin them up. I?m thinking of cutting open the sleeves and placing the media in new 8? floppy sleeves. I?ve also heard about baking the media, although I?ve never tried this and not sure of its value. What are your thoughts on how to proceed? From pete at pski.net Sat Oct 29 21:09:44 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:09:44 -0400 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> References: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> Message-ID: <45D82003-30AF-4009-B509-0E568D2D25EF@pski.net> > On Oct 29, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > I?ve recently acquired a rare complete set of 10 TRS-XENIX 1.0 Development System floppy disks. I?ve done quite a bit of 8? disk imaging so I'm fairly comfortable using ImageDisk, cleaning disk heads, etc. I?ve run into a scenario with these disks that I have not had to deal with before. Since this is the only complete set of this software I?ve ever seen, I need to be really careful with how I proceed. The media itself looks pretty good. No scratches, no blotches. However, on a number of disks the sleeves have warped. I am afraid that this will damage the media when I spin them up. I?m thinking of cutting open the sleeves and placing the media in new 8? floppy sleeves. I?ve also heard about baking the media, although I?ve never tried this and not sure of its value. > > What are your thoughts on how to proceed? Just to clarify, I meant the plastic floppy disk case when I said ?sleeve". From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 29 21:31:49 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:31:49 -0700 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <815a9e96-b902-96cb-92d0-b4ef8e83bf3e@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <9079b613-5d00-84e4-0416-63a66331e81e@e-bbes.com> <815a9e96-b902-96cb-92d0-b4ef8e83bf3e@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <7afae6cf-b8a1-6862-d530-e4642c9a6f33@sydex.com> On 10/29/2016 05:29 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Is it worth it, to get TEAC 55 for them as replacement? The ones I > have, have broken fronts ... If you need jumper settings for the 55FG, I've got them. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Sat Oct 29 21:50:33 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 12:50:33 +1000 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: References: <20161026164023.1DA1F18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <821cc3892da4302a50b7f3a384efd54c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Hi all, On my road trip earlier this year one of the docs I snagged was a ring binder of Foxboro Integrated Circuits dated 10/73, Revision A, one of 200 copies. It covers chip characteristics and compatibility cross references. This was part of the doc set for the Foxboro FOX 2/10 (PDP-11/15) about which more is to come. Anyway from this I've just scanned and pdf'd the pages for the DEC 8881, which Foxboro called the C3313AB. The first page is the relevant cross-reference to other manufacturers. I'm sure this is already on bitsavers somewhere (what isn't :) but hey what the heck, the more the merrier. The only other DEC-specific IC that is covered is the 380A. It's at http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_8881_transceiver_IC_Foxboro_pn_C3313AB.pdf Steve. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Oct 30 03:01:54 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 02:01:54 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-29 09:21, allison wrote: > On 10/29/2016 09:55 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? > yes and there were more than a few modem/terminal programs. for CP/M 68K? From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Oct 30 03:20:18 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 01:20:18 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <005601d2322b$ee6bf240$cb43d6c0$@ronnatalie.com> References: <20161029131549.54CB718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005601d2322b$ee6bf240$cb43d6c0$@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/2016 2:32 PM, Ron Natalie wrote: > I think just like everything else the boot rom just pulls in the first > sector of the disk. I had RX02s on many of the BRL Gateways (my > implementation that replaced your MIT Gateway while you were in exile). > We put a V6 file system and I must have had a regular V6 boot block on it > with a RX02. There might be someone still at BRL who might remember where > this stuff is. I certainly don't have it. > > BRL PDP-11 kernels had both V6 and V7 file systems in them but I'd have to > believe I was booting off a V6 one. For RX01 (and RX02) the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7 into memory. For RX01 with 128B sectors this yields 512B total (just like reading one 512B block from most other disks). Their is a fixed 2:1 sector interleave. For RX02 is does the same sector reads, but since the sectors are 256B the total amount of data read is 1024B. In reality only sectors 1, 3 need be read, but the bootstrap (M9312 anyway) just goes ahead and reads all four sectors always. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 07:47:48 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 08:47:48 -0400 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: <45D82003-30AF-4009-B509-0E568D2D25EF@pski.net> References: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> <45D82003-30AF-4009-B509-0E568D2D25EF@pski.net> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2016 3:37 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: > > > > On Oct 29, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > > I?ve recently acquired a rare complete set of 10 TRS-XENIX 1.0 Development ... I'd carefully transplant to a better sleeve. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 30 07:48:46 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 08:48:46 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> On 10/30/2016 04:01 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-10-29 09:21, allison wrote: >> On 10/29/2016 09:55 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? >> yes and there were more than a few modem/terminal programs. > > for CP/M 68K? > When people say CP/M its nearly always in the context of 8080/8085/NSC800/Z80 or maybe 8088/86 CP/M-68 was rare but likely there was Kermit for it as all versions of kermit were based on the same effort. Myself I never used it as I had the alternates like modem-7 or MEX. A basic file transfer program was a trivial thing. Allison From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 07:56:07 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 08:56:07 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2016 8:48 AM, "allison" wrote: > > On 10/30/2016 04:01 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > On 2016-10-29 09:21, allison wrote: > >> On 10/29/2016 09:55 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >>> Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? > >> yes and there were more than a few modem/terminal programs. > > > > for CP/M 68K? > > > When people say CP/M its nearly always in the context of > 8080/8085/NSC800/Z80 or maybe 8088/86 > CP/M-68 was rare but likely there was Kermit for it as all versions of > kermit were based on > the same effort. Myself I never used it as I had the alternates like > modem-7 or MEX. > > A basic file transfer program was a trivial thing. > > Allison I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit. That is what the OP was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II. We were discussing how to image theae disks, I don't have a 96tpi - capable drive set up on my current disk imaging station otherwise I'd have simply uploaded an .IMD file. Short term he needs cp/m 68 from somewhere else. I assume OP'er has checked jim battle ' sage II website. Bill From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 30 12:07:24 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 13:07:24 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> Message-ID: <42da8a65-aa0d-82b5-c0c5-df49f0c5ebd8@verizon.net> On 10/30/2016 08:56 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 30, 2016 8:48 AM, "allison" wrote: >> On 10/30/2016 04:01 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> On 2016-10-29 09:21, allison wrote: >>>> On 10/29/2016 09:55 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>>>> Was there a version of kermit for CP/M ? >>>> yes and there were more than a few modem/terminal programs. >>> for CP/M 68K? >>> >> When people say CP/M its nearly always in the context of >> 8080/8085/NSC800/Z80 or maybe 8088/86 >> CP/M-68 was rare but likely there was Kermit for it as all versions of >> kermit were based on >> the same effort. Myself I never used it as I had the alternates like >> modem-7 or MEX. >> >> A basic file transfer program was a trivial thing. >> >> Allison > I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit. That is what the OP > was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II. We were discussing how to > image theae disks, I don't have a 96tpi - capable drive set up on my > current disk imaging station otherwise I'd have simply uploaded an .IMD > file. Short term he needs cp/m 68 from somewhere else. > > I assume OP'er has checked jim battle ' sage II website. > > Bill > Much has been imaged and is over in bitsavers.org... Software stride and sage. What it requires is a Real Computer(tm) with disk drives not one of the latest octa-core Vunderkind M$ PCs. An older box with a FD55GFV and one of the better 3.5" should handle all but 8" and hard sector needs. I keep a Dell 486 powered pizza box for that as it has all the 5.25 and 3.5 capability, for an OS winders3.11 is fine as its really DOS and moderately useful as it runs teledisk still. Also the smaller pentium box with linux as its got that as well. Either than or a CP/M-80 machine with a bunch of drives, MY s100 crate has that from 8 though 3.5. A Qbus pdp-11 with the full compliment of floppies from RX02, though 5.25 and 3.5" can do it as well. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 12:14:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 10:14:37 -0700 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: References: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> <45D82003-30AF-4009-B509-0E568D2D25EF@pski.net> Message-ID: <8bffd247-73f7-a743-1950-165bfa72d62f@sydex.com> On 10/30/2016 05:47 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 30, 2016 3:37 AM, "Peter Cetinski" wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 29, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Peter Cetinski >>> wrote: >>> >>> I?ve recently acquired a rare complete set of 10 TRS-XENIX 1.0 > Development ... > > I'd carefully transplant to a better sleeve. Yup, I do this quite often. I keep a pile of empty jackets around for just such a purpose. Very useful in cases where the lining of the jacket has become contaminated with dirt or spilled liquids. Just slit or cut the top edge of the jacket for easy removal/insertion. Don't waste your time trying to break the welds. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 30 13:01:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 11:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> References: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, Peter Cetinski wrote: > media itself looks pretty good. No scratches, no blotches. However, on > a number of disks the sleeves have warped. I am afraid that this will > damage the media when I spin them up. I?m thinking of cutting open > the sleeves and placing the media in new 8? floppy sleeves. I?ve > also heard about baking the media, although I?ve never tried this and > not sure of its value. > What are your thoughts on how to proceed? You can slit the disks open, and one at a time, put them into a fresh jacket. If the warpage isn't severe, but the disks are just hard to turn, . . . hold the disk perpendicular to the edge of a table, pushing a little, so that the jacket bows out slightly, and rub it back and forth. Not so much force that you daamage the cookie. Do that for all four edges of the disk. The disk will then turn much easier. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 30 13:01:50 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 11:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> References: <51D0F604-C8AD-4FB0-A397-EFD4B964BE6D@pski.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, Peter Cetinski wrote: > media itself looks pretty good. No scratches, no blotches. However, on > a number of disks the sleeves have warped. I am afraid that this will > damage the media when I spin them up. I?m thinking of cutting open > the sleeves and placing the media in new 8? floppy sleeves. I?ve > also heard about baking the media, although I?ve never tried this and > not sure of its value. > What are your thoughts on how to proceed? You can slit the disks open, and one at a time, put them into a fresh jacket. If the warpage isn't severe, but the disks are just hard to turn, . . . hold the disk perpendicular to the edge of a table, pushing a little, so that the jacket bows out slightly, and rub it back and forth. Not so much force that you daamage the cookie. Do that for all four edges of the disk. The disk will then turn much easier. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 03:47:20 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 01:47:20 -0700 Subject: HP-1000 12044A 12825A HDLC Interface manuals available anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have only the M/E/F interfaces (HP 12825A and 12826B). I just dumped the ROMs and forwarded to Al. Marc > On Oct 28, 2016, at 6:56 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 9:25 PM, Curious Marc wrote: >> I'm interested too, I have the interfaces. >> Marc > > Do you have the M/E/F-Series interfaces, or the A/L-Series interfaces, or both? > > I currently only have A/L-Series interfaces. Two with the firmware > 91750-80008 (2716) and 91750-80009 (2732), and one with firmware > 5180-7233 (2764). > > The manuals I have seen list the HDLC firmware set 91750-80008 and > 91750-80009 for both the M/E/F-Series interfaces and the A/L-Series > interfaces. > > I went looking and found a reference to the version 5180-7233 firmware: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/communicator/1000/5961-6201_Dec-1992.pdf > Section 3.33.15 PSI Firmware History (page 3-131, page 257 of the PDF) > 91750-80008/91750-80009 > 91750-80008/91750-80021 > 5180-7233 > 5181-6113 > > Has anyone started archiving binaries for various firmware versions > for the any of the interfaces, or any microcode and firmware for the > A-Series CPUs? I know some of the E/F-Series firmware is on Bitsavers. > > I currently have 2 different versions of A900 microcode on sequencer > boards and 3 different versions of A900 VCP firmware on cache > controller boards. I should dumps these sometime. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 30 07:47:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 08:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's Message-ID: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Don North > .. the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7 Ah, thanks for that. Starting to look at the code, I had missed the interleave. So does DEC do anything with track 0, or is it always just empty? Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 30 06:58:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 12:58:48 +0100 Subject: DEC DSSI troubleshooting (RF71) Message-ID: Hi folks, I've got my VAX3800 resuscitated after many years in limbo and two of the four RF71s in there have gone bad. Has anyone tried swapping the controller boards between drives? Is it just a matter of letting the drive auto-calibrate or do I need to SET HOST onto the controller and tell it it's on a different HDA... Here it is in a happier mood shortly after first powerup: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/VAX3800.jpg (not my best LK201 keyboard but it was the closest :) ) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Oct 30 08:44:07 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 07:44:07 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-30 06:56, william degnan wrote: > I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit. That is what the OP > was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II. Great! > We were discussing how to > image theae disks, I don't have a 96tpi - capable drive set up on my > current disk imaging station otherwise I'd have simply uploaded an .IMD > file. Short term he needs cp/m 68 from somewhere else. If possible, just send me the .IMD file > I assume OP'er has checked jim battle ' sage II website. I didn't see it there. I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working, it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right? From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 09:15:12 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 10:15:12 -0400 Subject: DEC DSSI troubleshooting (RF71) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > I've got my VAX3800 resuscitated after many years in limbo and two of the > four RF71s in there have gone bad. Has anyone tried swapping the controller > boards between drives? Is it just a matter of letting the drive > auto-calibrate or do I need to SET HOST onto the controller and tell it > it's > on a different HDA... > > Good question, but I think it's the drives not the controller that will need to settle. I would check (too late now I know) the boot sequence see whats happening step by step for clues. I can tell you that adding in a new drive, initialize with volume name to match the old volume name is what I would do if I was swapping in a new drive. b From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Oct 30 12:15:45 2016 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 10:15:45 -0700 Subject: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d201d232d1$4083aa50$c18afef0$@comcast.net> Ian, Sorry I took so long to respond, I have been out of town. I designed a plug in board to upgrade the ROM slot to an EPROM but a quick look did not tune up any extras. I am going to do a serious downsizing my collection and maybe we can work something out. Michael Holley 206 484 1181 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 8:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source? On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/4/16 3:02 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > > Dumb question...did the '451 have a mechanism to work around the > > instruction restart issue in the 68000? > > no. the 68451 is a segmented mmu, so you wouldn't use it for demand > paging. the normal way you use it in unix is setting up segents for > text, data, and bss > > > > I remember reading the spec sheets for a MMU of that type - for the 6809! That was one versatile little processor. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 16:40:43 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 17:40:43 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:44 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-10-30 06:56, william degnan wrote: > > I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit. That is what the OP >> was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II. >> > Great! > > We were discussing how to >> image theae disks, I don't have a 96tpi - capable drive set up on my >> current disk imaging station otherwise I'd have simply uploaded an .IMD >> file. Short term he needs cp/m 68 from somewhere else. >> > > If possible, just send me the .IMD file > I don't have a HD drive attached to my imaging computer, which is the original point I made when I first replied to your post, asking about the format. I was afraid I could not read the disk. > > I assume OP'er has checked jim battle ' sage II website. >> > > I didn't see it there. > > I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working, > it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right? > > if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 30 17:48:47 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 15:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >> I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit. That is what the OP >>> was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II. On Sun, 30 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote: > I don't have a HD drive attached to my imaging computer, which is the > original point I made when I first replied to your post, asking about the > format. I was afraid I could not read the disk. >> I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working, >> it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right? > if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it. 6.2x is my favorite version of DOS, "the first one where improving reliability was a fundamental intent", and 3.20 was the first one that consistently had 720K DOS format, however, since imaging software would most often be using INT13h, or even direct acccess of the FDC, ANY version of DOS should be OK. Life is sometimes a little easier using a 720K 5.25" drive (such as Mitsubishi 4853, Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4) instead of a 1.2M 5.25" drive. If the drive is running 300RPM, then the data transfer rate should be 250K. If the drive is running 360RPM (some 1.2M drives), then the data transfer rate should be 300K. But correcting the data transfer rate is all the extra that is needed for using a 1.2M for "720K"/"quad density" formats From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 13:03:33 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 14:03:33 -0400 Subject: raytheon 706 computer users manual at SMECC In-Reply-To: <16aff3.3903a362.452c68cc@aol.com> References: <16aff3.3903a362.452c68cc@aol.com> Message-ID: Ed, I have a little 703 and 706 in my library under Raytheon. Clearing out my spam folder I see your recent messages to cctalk. Here is why your emails are going into the spam box, see if you can authenticate your email address. Bill *Why is this message in Spam?* It has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for authentication. On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 11:45 PM, wrote: > We have in the library: > "raytheon 706 computer users manual" > at SMECC. > > Wanted to see if it was online somewhere. > > Nice shape tight binding with an additional errata and addendum > pamphlet accompanying it. > > I see bitsavers has manual but not pmphlet.Also there is no color front > and back cover, which > if you have the computer is cool artwork for a display. - > > Anyone with a 706 out there? > > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 16:09:27 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 17:09:27 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* *Ebay:* 272432268291 http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? $1. Bill From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 17:09:04 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:09:04 +1300 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: > *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* > > *Ebay:* 272432268291 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? > > $1. > > Bill Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one of them? If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 30 17:24:47 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 18:24:47 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c5b4ed8-53bf-8e6f-2ccc-9fde4661f414@verizon.net> On 10/30/2016 06:09 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: >> *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* >> >> *Ebay:* 272432268291 >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? >> >> $1. >> >> Bill > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) Depends on the version of unix. V6 runs fine on a non-I&D machine as well 2.11. Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I&D. Allison > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Oct 30 17:34:20 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 15:34:20 -0700 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161030153420.3d1bff00@honcho.bcwi.net> On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:09:04 +1300 Mike Ross wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* > > > > *Ebay:* 272432268291 > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? > > > > $1. > > > > Bill > > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) One of the OS's I run on my PDP-11/34C is BSD 2.9. It does NOT require separate I/D spaces. The following are supported by BSD 2.9: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- PDP-11/23, 24, 34, 34A, 40, 44, 45, 55, 60, or 70 CPU with at least 192 Kbytes of memory Any of the following disks**: DEC MASSBUS: RM03, RM05, RP04, RP05, RP06 DEC UNIBUS: RK05, RK06, RK07, RL01, RL02, RM02, RP03, RP04, RP05, RP06 AED 8000 UNIBUS: AMPEX DM980 (emulating RP03) AED STORM-II AMPEX DM980 (emulating RM02) DIVA COMP V MASSBUS: AMPEX 9300 EMULEX SC-21 UNIBUS: AMPEX 9300, CDC 9766 (emulating RM05) EMULEX SC-11 or SC-21 UNIBUS: CDC 9762, AMPEX DM980 The tape drives supported are: MASSBUS: TE16, TU45, TU77 UNIBUS: TE10, TE16, TS11, TU45, TU77 DATUM 15X20 UNIBUS: KENNEDY 9100 (emulating TE10) EMULEX TC-11 UNIBUS: KENNEDY 9100, 9300 (emulating TE10) I run BSD 2.11 which DOES require separate I/D spaces on my 11/83 Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 17:44:13 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 18:44:13 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2016 6:09 PM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: > > *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* > > > > *Ebay:* 272432268291 > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? > > > > $1. > > > > Bill > > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) A 128K pdp 11/40 should be able to with memory mgt, I thought this was one of the first unibus systems to be capable of UNIX. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 17:47:29 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 18:47:29 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 October 2016 at 18:09, Mike Ross wrote: > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > V5 and V6 will run on an 11/40. I *think* but I might be wrong, that V5 doesn't support split I/D. > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) > Why, plannign to run an old UNIX on a blinkenlights '11? :P Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Oct 30 18:24:22 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:24:22 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> On 10/30/2016 5:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Don North > > > .. the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7 > > Ah, thanks for that. Starting to look at the code, I had missed the > interleave. > > So does DEC do anything with track 0, or is it always just empty? > > Noel > Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software, block zero of the device (boot block) starts at track 1 sector 1. Track 0 is not even accessible thru the standard drivers. Applies to both PDP-11 (eg, XXDP, RT11) and PDP-8 (OS8). Maybe specific software that reads/writes disks in IBM exchange mode accesses track 0, but I've never used such s/w and am only guessing. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 30 20:15:28 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 20:15:28 -0500 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58169B30.3040104@pico-systems.com> On 10/30/2016 05:09 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: >> *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* >> >> *Ebay:* 272432268291 >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? >> >> $1. >> >> Bill > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) > > The early Unix most definitely could run without separate I/D spaces, in fact I think it could run without memory management. That might have required it to stay in single-user mode. I'm PRETTY sure I ran a Bell Labs Unix on an 11 BEFORE we got our 11/45, and those did not have memory management. (11/05 and CalData). Our tests with that Unix did not look promising, so we just did some testing and then went to RSX-11M. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 30 20:28:28 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 20:28:28 -0500 Subject: DEC DS10L Fix CPUFan! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58169E3C.8030201@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2016 03:33 PM, Daniel Olsson wrote: > Hey Jon! > > Thank you for the tips, i will see if i can open it up in > someway, the fan is kinda like a laptop blower style, but > a bigger version of it :) I think i will need to buy new > bearings for it when i have read on google about the fan. > > Anyway, I was thinking about the little 4" boxer fans, which a DS10L may not have. A number of mid-size and larger Vax and Alpha systems had blowers made by EBM-Papst. It might be harder to get these opened, they were not meant to be repairable. The bearings are almost certainly ball bearing, so if you can get it apart without breaking the impeller, you should be able to press the bearings off the shaft and new ones on. It is probably not a job to be done with the simplest of hand tools, however. I've used a few of these blowers in some of my projects, but never had them get noisy. Jon From rlloken at telus.net Sun Oct 30 23:09:24 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 22:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEC DS10L Fix CPUFan! In-Reply-To: 11Oqc9npwXOXd11Orcatrl References: 11Oqc9npwXOXd11Orcatrl Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2016, Jon Elson wrote: >> Thank you for the tips, i will see if i can open it up in someway, the fan >> is kinda like a laptop blower style, but a bigger version of it :) I think >> i will need to buy new bearings for it when i have read on google about the >> fan. You never know until you try. Anyway, the Alphaserver 4100 has four midsize muffin fans and I found them trivial to take apart and trivial to replace the bearings which were a standard off the shelf part. It was easier to fix the fan than it was to replace them since DEC had a custom fan with a speed sensor built in that proved impossible for me to find. It changes from model to model and generation to generation. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 30 23:50:09 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 00:50:09 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <868041.7e021f0d.45482781@aol.com> was Unix or C the one developed on the 11/20? Ed# In a message dated 10/30/2016 6:15:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, elson at pico-systems.com writes: >> >> Bill > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) > From isking at uw.edu Mon Oct 31 01:09:00 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 23:09:00 -0700 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <868041.7e021f0d.45482781@aol.com> References: <868041.7e021f0d.45482781@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:50 PM, wrote: > was Unix or C the one developed on the 11/20? > Ed# > > > In a message dated 10/30/2016 6:15:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > elson at pico-systems.com writes: > > >> > >> Bill > > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > > of them? > > > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) > > > I've run 6th Edition on an 11/34. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 31 03:26:02 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:26:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <9c5b4ed8-53bf-8e6f-2ccc-9fde4661f414@verizon.net> References: <9c5b4ed8-53bf-8e6f-2ccc-9fde4661f414@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2016, allison wrote: > Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I&D. That's wrong. We run 2.9BSD on our 11/34, initially on two RL01 disks, now on one RL01 (as boot and swap device) and one RA80 (there is a third-party MSCP driver for 2.9BSD). I need to upgrade the machine with a cache and FPP board as time permits (I have the boards lying around somewhere). I could add a DEUNA, too, but it wouldn't work with 2.9BSD on this machine (I think the IP stack needs separate I/D and more memory). Christian From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 04:14:46 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:14:46 +1300 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 30 October 2016 at 18:09, Mike Ross wrote: >> Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix >> required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one >> of them? >> > V5 and V6 will run on an 11/40. I *think* but I might be wrong, that > V5 doesn't support split I/D. > > >> If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) >> > Why, plannign to run an old UNIX on a blinkenlights '11? :P Yes. I want a blinkenlights web server :-) Of course these days RSX is also a possibility... it has an HTTPD in addition to the basic TCP/IP stack I believe? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 31 05:53:42 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:53:42 +0000 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89764266-98fe-40d9-94ae-48056af275b1@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/10/2016 22:47, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 30 October 2016 at 18:09, Mike Ross wrote: >> Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix >> required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one >> of them? >> > V5 and V6 will run on an 11/40. I *think* but I might be wrong, that > V5 doesn't support split I/D. Dunno, but I have V7 running on an 11/23 which I demo'd at the 2015 DEC Legacy event. I've also had it running on an 11/34; neither of those have split I&D. I've never tried to rebuild it for my 11/40 but I know it's supported. I have BSD 2.11 running on an 11/83 - that (and 2.10) does need split I&D - but as Lyle mentioned, 2.9 and earlier don't need it. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From dogaschesswarrior at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 07:41:55 2016 From: dogaschesswarrior at gmail.com (Mike Haas) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 08:41:55 -0400 Subject: Tek 40xx computer users In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A48D@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A48D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: >From Pete >>The ROM cart your going to want to get never left Tek, Hah ha, made you say never.... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxd4qJinVzkNQVBDazFGdUZBLU0/view >From Rick >>Mike Hass wrote regarding heh.... >>Very cool stuff. Let's see some pictures posted https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0Bxd4qJinVzkNV3c4RElNYVh1VTg ;) From steven at malikoff.com Mon Oct 31 08:11:29 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:11:29 +1000 Subject: Some pages from the 360-40 Development Manual, Hursley Message-ID: I've pdf'd half a dozen pages of the 360/40 development manual from IBM British Labs at Hursley UK, early/mid 60s. I wish I had more but these only survived because dad used to bring home binders with these single-sided pages for us kids to draw on, and my parents kept them. They may not even be from the same document, but it's just for interest's sake. http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/misc/IBM_360-40_Development_Manual_fragment.pdf From j_hoppe at t-online.de Mon Oct 31 08:51:02 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 14:51:02 +0100 Subject: PDP11GUI 1.48.5 Message-ID: Guys, there's a new release PDP11GUI 1.48.5 Some enhancements: 1. "Disk Image Read/Write": - Now compression of 2word patterns (32 bit patterns), did reduce download of a RSX-11 system disk from 40h to 6h. - Fix for PDP-11/44 console firmware v 3.40: ignore "(Program)" output after driver start. 2. Terminal windows now beeps on char, necessary for some endless XXDP diags. Download from https://github.com/j-hoppe/PDP11GUI/releases/tag/1.48.5 Web: http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui Enjoy, Joerg From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 31 08:36:12 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <20161031133612.183C618C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ed Sharpe > was Unix or C the one developed on the 11/20? Both. Unix Version 1 was written in PDP-11 assembler, for the -11/20; although that was a re-write of an earlier version written in PDP-7 assembler. C was developed from B in good part because the word address model of B (inherited from its ancestor BCPL) wasn't a good match for the PDP-11's byte addressing model. More here: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > From: Christian Corti > I think the IP stack needs separate I/D and more memory I read that the networking code in 2.x uses Supervisor mode (apparently it needed more address space than was available with only kernel, even with split I/D). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 31 08:55:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's Message-ID: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Don North > Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.) If I had to _guess_, one possibility would be that track 0 is the innermost track, where the media is moving the slowest, and as a result it's more error-prone. Another is that IBM used track 0 for something special, and DEC tried to conform with that. But those are pure guesses, I would love to know for sure. Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 31 09:06:23 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:06:23 +0100 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161031140622.GD31329@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:14:46PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > Yes. I want a blinkenlights web server :-) > > Of course these days RSX is also a possibility... it has an HTTPD in > addition to the basic TCP/IP stack I believe? > It sure does: http://magica.update.uu.se/ /P From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 09:19:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:19:27 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <749E3348-2724-42C4-B775-D6BAA4DA86A5@comcast.net> > On Oct 31, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Don North > >> Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software > > I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the > original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does > anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.) > > If I had to _guess_, one possibility would be that track 0 is the innermost > track, where the media is moving the slowest, and as a result it's more > error-prone. Another is that IBM used track 0 for something special, and DEC > tried to conform with that. But those are pure guesses, I would love to know > for sure. I don't know either. But for what it's worth, this odd addressing carries over to the RX50. Not exactly, though. Logical block 0 is the first sector on track 1, sectors are 2:1 interleaved, and there's a 3 sector skew from track to track. The difference here is that track 0 does get used: it holds the last 10 sectors of the logical address space. In other words, physical track 0 follows physical track 79. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 09:26:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:26:50 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <20161031140622.GD31329@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161031140622.GD31329@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:14:46PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > > > Yes. I want a blinkenlights web server :-) > > > > Of course these days RSX is also a possibility... it has an HTTPD in > > addition to the basic TCP/IP stack I believe? > > > > It sure does: > > http://magica.update.uu.se/ > > /P > Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need to load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak? The data would be on the tape drives, and something on stand by to re-load the OS back into core. Bill From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 31 09:42:11 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:42:11 +0100 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161026145414.AA91218C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161026145414.AA91218C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <844e4aca-67e9-4dd9-cd93-808d8951a87b@hachti.de> On 10/26/2016 04:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Philipp Hachtmann > > > Very enlightening. > > You're hoarding interface ICs with commercial second thoughts > > If you think either Guy, or Dave and I, expect to make much money selling the > QBUS/UNIBUS boards we are working on, you are seriously confused. None of us > are in this as a money-making exercise; there are easier ways to make a lot > more money. It's not really what I expected. But that one posting sounded a lot like that, sorry. > And as to the hoarding, if you'd like to buy up a couple of thousand yourself, > from that miniscule stockpile of 30K units that Guy and I have left out there > for you all, please let me know, and I'll expidite over a name, phone number, > and email for you to contact. What does that mean? Do you have a source where there are still 30k chips sitting and waiting? Sounds interesting! Kind regards Philipp -- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 09:48:44 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:48:44 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <9c5b4ed8-53bf-8e6f-2ccc-9fde4661f414@verizon.net> References: <9c5b4ed8-53bf-8e6f-2ccc-9fde4661f414@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 6:24 PM, allison wrote: > Depends on the version of unix. V6 runs fine on a non-I&D machine > as well 2.11. > > Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I&D. 2.11 is later than 2.9. It's "two point eleven" not "two point one pause one" I beefed up my 11/24 30 years ago to run 2.9BSD (added KT24 and 2MB of RAM - spent almost $1000). I have few machines with Split I&D so I mostly dabble in 2.9. Good to know about V6 vs V7. Haven't played with those yet so I'll be sure to look into the differences before getting started. One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from 2.11 to 2.9. That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an RQDX3. Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus disk controller for that platform. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 09:48:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:48:56 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: <20161031140622.GD31329@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Oct 31, 2016, at 10:26 AM, william degnan wrote: > > Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need to > load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak? The data would be on > the tape drives, and something on stand by to re-load the OS back into core. Only if the OS implements the ability to resume from a power failure without reloading from disk or tape. Few do. Perhaps some flavors of RSX, I don't know. RSTS V4A, when built with the power fail handling option, could do so. Later versions do not; they unconditionally reboot (from disk) at powerup. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 31 10:06:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <20161031150610.3ACB818C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I&D. V7 is only distributed with pre-built loads for split I+D machines (so you can't boot a V7 distribution tape on a non-split machine), but it includes machine-language OS support files for non-split machines. (It's similar enough to V6 that it makes sense that it runs on non-split machines.) > From: William Degnan > Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need > to load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak? To fork a process, Unix swaps the forking process out, and then fiddles system tables so that one of the two copies (I forget which, without looking at the code) becomes the child. This includes at startup, when the 'swapping' process (0) splits and the child (1) is set up to run /etc/init. (I found this out the hard way, when bringing up V6 under Ersatz-11. :-) So Unix won't run without a swapping device. Noel From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 31 10:00:36 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:00:36 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <90a3d0d2-74e9-546b-73e4-20310073e2f8@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/10/2016 13:55, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the > original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does > anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.) > > If I had to _guess_, one possibility would be that track 0 is the innermost > track, where the media is moving the slowest, and as a result it's more > error-prone. Except that track 0 is the outermost track, where the media is moving fastest, and therefore perhaps the least error-prone. Except that for many drives, it's where the heads end up after a reset or recalibration, and on drives where the heads are (almost) always loaded, the one that will wear most. I've seen floppies with a transparent ring near the outer edge, and I'm sure many other listmembers have too. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 31 10:11:54 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:11:54 -0600 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: <9c5b4ed8-53bf-8e6f-2ccc-9fde4661f414@verizon.net> Message-ID: <341b9e73-2e2e-f1be-3c9c-95e75ec435c5@e-bbes.com> On 2016-10-31 08:48, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from > 2.11 to 2.9. That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an > RQDX3. Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus > disk controller for that platform. I missed that :( more details? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 31 10:12:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC bus transceivers Message-ID: <20161031151217.1795818C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Philipp Hachtmann > that one posting sounded a lot like that, sorry. OK. > Do you have a source where there are still 30k chips sitting and > waiting? It was ~30K a couple of months ago. I checked about a week ago, and it was down to ~26K (IIRC). Although, like I said, I doubt they have all 26K in stock themselves; based on comments they made when we bought a large group, I think that's the total number available to them across a number of suppliers, in a network which shares inventory information. Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 10:16:48 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:16:48 -0400 Subject: What hardware runs 2BSD (was Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System) Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:11 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-10-31 08:48, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from >> 2.11 to 2.9. That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an >> RQDX3. Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus >> disk controller for that platform. > > I missed that :( About 15 years ago, Jonathan Engdahl backported the MSCP driver to 2.9BSD... > more details? First hit: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/2_9bsd-mscp.htm -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 31 10:29:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 08:29:02 -0700 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: <868041.7e021f0d.45482781@aol.com> Message-ID: <75fefc28-fc2f-edb4-33b5-32d5bc98bd23@bitsavers.org> V7 runs on an 11/34. It's pretty tight, but it will fit on two RK05s as / and /usr. That was the first Unix machine I used at UW-Milw circa 1978. Mini-Unix (version of V6) ran on an 11 w/o an MMU On 10/30/16 11:09 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I've run 6th Edition on an 11/34. > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 31 10:37:08 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 08:37:08 -0700 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <081CE9B3-5825-44C7-8249-4D109B0F49D7@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 30, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: >> *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System* >> >> *Ebay:* 272432268291 >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291? >> >> $1. >> >> Bill > > Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix > required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one > of them? > > If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-) You can run v6, v7 on non-split I/D machines. ?Back in the day? we ran v6 on a freshly minted 11/34. An 11/40 is no problem as I?ve run v7 on both my 11/34 & 11/40. At this point I don?t recall running BSD 2.9 on anything. I do run BSD 2.11 on my 11/70 (but of course that?s a split I & D machine). TTFN - Guy From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 31 11:18:06 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:18:06 -0600 Subject: What hardware runs 2BSD (was Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-10-31 09:16, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:11 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> On 2016-10-31 08:48, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from >>> 2.11 to 2.9. That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an >>> RQDX3. Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus >>> disk controller for that platform. >> >> I missed that :( > > About 15 years ago, Jonathan Engdahl backported the MSCP driver to 2.9BSD... > >> more details? > > First hit: > > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/2_9bsd-mscp.htm > > -ethan I guess, I tripped over the word "recent" ;-) THANKS! From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Oct 31 13:04:17 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:04:17 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller Message-ID: Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another story. Recently I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller . A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane. The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there, Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then anything. So .. anyone have the manual ? (*) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_Control From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 31 13:58:18 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:58:18 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/30/2016 4:24 PM, Don North wrote: > On 10/30/2016 5:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Don North >> >> > .. the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7 >> >> Ah, thanks for that. Starting to look at the code, I had missed the >> interleave. >> >> So does DEC do anything with track 0, or is it always just empty? >> >> Noel >> > Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software, block zero of the device > (boot block) > starts at track 1 sector 1. Track 0 is not even accessible thru the > standard drivers. > > Applies to both PDP-11 (eg, XXDP, RT11) and PDP-8 (OS8). > > Maybe specific software that reads/writes disks in IBM exchange mode > accesses > track 0, but I've never used such s/w and am only guessing If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 at all. The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a defect map. Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / sectors. I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used. Later drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing. Thanks Jim From Mark at Misty.com Mon Oct 31 14:06:19 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:06:19 -0400 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> References: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20161031190619.GA7744@allie.home.misty.com> Hi All, I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below additional information about remaining items, with links to photos. Please contact Rick directly if interested. Original posting here: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +0000, steven stengel wrote: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > *************? Contact Rick below if interested.? ************* > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Name: Rick Bunker > Contact: rick at bunker.us > Location: Jenkintown, PA??? > I have a computer collection that I have to sell. My wife and I > have separated, and the house is being sold, and I have no > place to keep the computers in my new apartment. ... > Is there anybody in striking distance of Philadelphia suburbs, who > would consider buying and picking up this collection? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- 10/30/2016 Update: ---------------------- > Hi, > > If you are getting this, it is because you have expressed interest in my > old computers. Here are a lot of pictures, which will be pretty > self-explanatory I think. I think I got everything other than a few spare > 8-inch drives and some boxes of software and documentation. > > The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, > you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 > > IMSAI 8080 complete system, with monitor and drives > https://goo.gl/photos/KjeTN7FR4btah3QM9 > > A KIM-1 (alas Commodore not MOS) https://goo.gl/photos/JWHn5b8Bvy2g2xNu7 > > Original Apple ][, not a plus or c or anything. With Disk ][ controller, > and original color display. https://goo.gl/photos/H47sr7oZy6MrCpzJ8 > > Original IBM PC, original bios, no hard drive - 2 floppies. Aftermarket > keyboard and monitor. https://goo.gl/photos/nRE1aFrGvPKz2a647 > > A beautiful NorthStar Horizon, populated with all NorthStar boards, disk > drives, memory, controller etc. https://goo.gl/photos/B9tFYd1Nse2cHdBi8 > > I paired it with with the LSi terminal. This was the desirable terminal > back then: https://goo.gl/photos/jTkqP6jQhLDozF1HA > > A very first gen TRS-80 with all the matching peripherals > https://goo.gl/photos/ct3ha8XMGEvLRaer6 > > A KAYPRO luggable with wordperfect keyboard overlay > https://goo.gl/photos/moUCaEeMARf1T94k9 > > A Cromemco, which was a pretty cool multi-user CP/M box that I programmed > on for one of my earliest programming gigs, just a shell though. But very > robust shell: https://goo.gl/photos/aLCg2AjgbCreCVND9 > > An NEC APC https://goo.gl/photos/YfDovSzaa73zCbVZ6 -- might not be that > interesting, a little later, but boots and runs CP/M. I worked on one > which is why I grabbed it. > > Google Glass, with packaging and stuff > https://goo.gl/photos/dDyDG3uWJpQ2wsnQA > > "Mario" chromebook. First chromebook ever. Works fine. Given to me by > GOOG (they were giving them to CIO's to gain feedback). > https://goo.gl/photos/pycpJtijdLjsxmN29 > > Some semi-random stuff. https://goo.gl/photos/edhbov7U6ezcFG3X7 > > SWTPC 6800 shell https://goo.gl/photos/33on8zYvGJZ6LvnMA > > Heathkit training system 6800 based https://goo.gl/photos/E5iFobDVtggqxshE9 > > Apple ][c with printer, drive, mouse, monitor all matching > https://goo.gl/photos/B1HjEKkjBhVUtWWT6 > > Day one original iPhone. https://goo.gl/photos/2dpWEZKGmecU3RgQ8 > > TI 99 with a ton of program modules including BASIC > https://goo.gl/photos/XyNZRuSwwYHzJiLL7 > > Let me know if/how you want to move forward. Please feel free to share > with anyone you think might be interested. > > Rick. > > -- > Rick Bunker > rick at bunker.us -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From Mark at Misty.com Mon Oct 31 14:06:19 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:06:19 -0400 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> References: <142877465.2182792.1476780279912.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <142877465.2182792.1476780279912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20161031190619.GA7744@allie.home.misty.com> Hi All, I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below additional information about remaining items, with links to photos. Please contact Rick directly if interested. Original posting here: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +0000, steven stengel wrote: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > *************? Contact Rick below if interested.? ************* > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Name: Rick Bunker > Contact: rick at bunker.us > Location: Jenkintown, PA??? > I have a computer collection that I have to sell. My wife and I > have separated, and the house is being sold, and I have no > place to keep the computers in my new apartment. ... > Is there anybody in striking distance of Philadelphia suburbs, who > would consider buying and picking up this collection? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- 10/30/2016 Update: ---------------------- > Hi, > > If you are getting this, it is because you have expressed interest in my > old computers. Here are a lot of pictures, which will be pretty > self-explanatory I think. I think I got everything other than a few spare > 8-inch drives and some boxes of software and documentation. > > The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, > you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 > > IMSAI 8080 complete system, with monitor and drives > https://goo.gl/photos/KjeTN7FR4btah3QM9 > > A KIM-1 (alas Commodore not MOS) https://goo.gl/photos/JWHn5b8Bvy2g2xNu7 > > Original Apple ][, not a plus or c or anything. With Disk ][ controller, > and original color display. https://goo.gl/photos/H47sr7oZy6MrCpzJ8 > > Original IBM PC, original bios, no hard drive - 2 floppies. Aftermarket > keyboard and monitor. https://goo.gl/photos/nRE1aFrGvPKz2a647 > > A beautiful NorthStar Horizon, populated with all NorthStar boards, disk > drives, memory, controller etc. https://goo.gl/photos/B9tFYd1Nse2cHdBi8 > > I paired it with with the LSi terminal. This was the desirable terminal > back then: https://goo.gl/photos/jTkqP6jQhLDozF1HA > > A very first gen TRS-80 with all the matching peripherals > https://goo.gl/photos/ct3ha8XMGEvLRaer6 > > A KAYPRO luggable with wordperfect keyboard overlay > https://goo.gl/photos/moUCaEeMARf1T94k9 > > A Cromemco, which was a pretty cool multi-user CP/M box that I programmed > on for one of my earliest programming gigs, just a shell though. But very > robust shell: https://goo.gl/photos/aLCg2AjgbCreCVND9 > > An NEC APC https://goo.gl/photos/YfDovSzaa73zCbVZ6 -- might not be that > interesting, a little later, but boots and runs CP/M. I worked on one > which is why I grabbed it. > > Google Glass, with packaging and stuff > https://goo.gl/photos/dDyDG3uWJpQ2wsnQA > > "Mario" chromebook. First chromebook ever. Works fine. Given to me by > GOOG (they were giving them to CIO's to gain feedback). > https://goo.gl/photos/pycpJtijdLjsxmN29 > > Some semi-random stuff. https://goo.gl/photos/edhbov7U6ezcFG3X7 > > SWTPC 6800 shell https://goo.gl/photos/33on8zYvGJZ6LvnMA > > Heathkit training system 6800 based https://goo.gl/photos/E5iFobDVtggqxshE9 > > Apple ][c with printer, drive, mouse, monitor all matching > https://goo.gl/photos/B1HjEKkjBhVUtWWT6 > > Day one original iPhone. https://goo.gl/photos/2dpWEZKGmecU3RgQ8 > > TI 99 with a ton of program modules including BASIC > https://goo.gl/photos/XyNZRuSwwYHzJiLL7 > > Let me know if/how you want to move forward. Please feel free to share > with anyone you think might be interested. > > Rick. > > -- > Rick Bunker > rick at bunker.us -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 14:26:32 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:26:32 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7B4010C5-F285-4507-BCF1-52735318BA05@comcast.net> > On Oct 31, 2016, at 2:58 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 at all. > > The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a defect map. Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / sectors. > > I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used. Later drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing. I haven't seen drives that put the defect data on track 0. DEC put it at the very end of the drive (see DEC Std 144). And as I recall, CDC did likewise in the 844 drives (RP04 lookalikes). As for software using that data, RSTS certainly did. paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 31 14:29:32 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:29:32 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2016 6:36:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > From: Ed Sharpe > was Unix or C the one developed on the 11/20? Both. Unix Version 1 was written in PDP-11 assembler, for the -11/20; although that was a re-write of an earlier version written in PDP-7 assembler. C was developed from B in good part because the word address model of B (inherited from its ancestor BCPL) wasn't a good match for the PDP-11's byte addressing model. More here: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > From: Christian Corti > I think the IP stack needs separate I/D and more memory I read that the networking code in 2.x uses Supervisor mode (apparently it needed more address space than was available with only kernel, even with split I/D). Noel Great History Noel! Many Thanks! ... I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or was a pdp-11/20 like we have.. I know they are essentially the same at this time point they got their PDP 11 what did it say on the front panel I wonder? (figuring all this stuff out for titling up the cards in the 11/20 display we are planning.) thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From isking at uw.edu Mon Oct 31 14:36:29 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:36:29 -0700 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> References: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:29 PM, wrote: > > ... > I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or > was a pdp-11/20 like we have.. > I know they are essentially the same at this time point they got > their PDP 11 what did it say on the front panel I wonder? > (figuring all this stuff out for titling up the cards in the 11/20 > display we are planning.) > I think we had this discussion a while back, but I know that my 11/20 just says 'PDP-11' on the front panel. I've also seen them with '11/20', which is almost certainly a later naming as the -11 line grew. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 31 14:40:13 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:40:13 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/31/16 2:58 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 10/30/2016 4:24 PM, Don North wrote: >> On 10/30/2016 5:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Don North >>> >>> > .. the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7 >>> >>> Ah, thanks for that. Starting to look at the code, I had missed the >>> interleave. >>> >>> So does DEC do anything with track 0, or is it always just empty? >>> >>> Noel >>> >> Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software, block zero of the >> device (boot block) >> starts at track 1 sector 1. Track 0 is not even accessible thru the >> standard drivers. >> >> Applies to both PDP-11 (eg, XXDP, RT11) and PDP-8 (OS8). >> >> Maybe specific software that reads/writes disks in IBM exchange mode >> accesses >> track 0, but I've never used such s/w and am only guessing > If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed > media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder > 0 at all. > Big difference between hard disk and floppy. Floppy the track 0 is generally used for "system level" things like microcode load or boot block. DEC varied on hardware (system) and OS and drive(media) as to its use. > The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a > defect map. Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would > then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated > than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / > sectors. > > I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that > could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used. Later > drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in > those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to > that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing. Every system that had a MFM drive could format all tracks and even either enter the printed bad block list or recover it before format. Most all could discover new bad blocks as well. The RQDX1/2/3 ca with XXDP software and the controller in the Microvax2000 can as well. THe higher level interfaces like SCSI can if the drive permits it or its terminated with a ADAPTEC or Xybec SCSI to MFM or RLL controller. All pre-IDE PCs could as well (WD1002/3/4/5/6 controller with MFM or RLL drive). Allison > Thanks > Jim > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 14:41:46 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:41:46 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I think we had this discussion a while back, but I know that my 11/20 just > says 'PDP-11' on the front panel. I've also seen them with '11/20', which > is almost certainly a later naming as the -11 line grew. Yes. Mine says "11/20" and has some later-rev CPU boards (-YA) that I think date to 1972. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 31 14:41:48 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:41:48 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <7B4010C5-F285-4507-BCF1-52735318BA05@comcast.net> References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> <7B4010C5-F285-4507-BCF1-52735318BA05@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/31/16 3:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 31, 2016, at 2:58 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> >> If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 at all. >> >> The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a defect map. Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / sectors. >> >> I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used. Later drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing. > I haven't seen drives that put the defect data on track 0. DEC put it at the very end of the drive (see DEC Std 144). And as I recall, CDC did likewise in the 844 drives (RP04 lookalikes). As for software using that data, RSTS certainly did. > > paul > But its not done (defect mapping) on floppies. defects on floppies are a media or drive issue. Also drive that grind away track 000 usually have enough gunk on the head to take out other tracks. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 31 13:44:02 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:44:02 +0100 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair Message-ID: Folks, I think I know the answer to this before I even ask, and that answer will be 'got a schematic' to which the answer's 'no and I doubt one exists any more' but... My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and at least one of the adjustment potentiometers has suffered metal fatigue and broken: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenPot.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelDisplayChip.jpg I've replaced it with a seemingly common 10K modern part that I had in my spares box but it's unknown whether the display worked at all prior to it being put in very damp storage, also the rating of the failed pot isn't known but the capacitor next to it is 50V. I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's website and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it SHOULD be OK. Power supply is known good because it's one of my working ones, the original is still dead. Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this analogue board? Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 31 14:49:09 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:49:09 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> References: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> Message-ID: <77e593ca-a52e-aef7-0c77-7b204fc39074@verizon.net> On 10/31/16 3:29 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/31/2016 6:36:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > >> From: Ed Sharpe >> was Unix or C the one developed on the 11/20? > Both. Unix Version 1 was written in PDP-11 assembler, for the -11/20; > although that was a re-write of an earlier version written in PDP-7 > assembler. C was developed from B in good part because the word address > model > of B (inherited from its ancestor BCPL) wasn't a good match for the > PDP-11's > byte addressing model. More here: > > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html > >> From: Christian Corti >> I think the IP stack needs separate I/D and more memory > I read that the networking code in 2.x uses Supervisor mode (apparently it > needed more address space than was available with only kernel, even with > split I/D). > > Noel > > Great History Noel! Many Thanks! > ... > I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or > was a pdp-11/20 like we have.. At that time PDP-11 was a general architecture name and 11/mumble was a specific system. Keep in mind that new versions of the -11 would evolve soon after introduction and continue over time for decades. Add to that there were both processor naming and system configuration naming conventions. > I know they are essentially the same at this time point they got > their PDP 11 what did it say on the front panel I wonder? > (figuring all this stuff out for titling up the cards in the 11/20 > display we are planning.) Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook! Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions and see the difference. Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors. Allison > > thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 14:51:09 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:51:09 +0000 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board > that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and Well, it won't be _powered_ from that IC. My guess is that said IC provides the HSync and VSync signals, the video comes from other devices on the main PCB. But that is a guess without seeing the machine/ [...] > I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them > was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's website > and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it SHOULD > be OK. I would be very surprised if that was not OK. [...] > Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this > analogue board? You haven't told us what the problem is. Do you get anything on the screen? Is the CRT heater glowing? Have you measured the CRT pin voltages? I can see one IC on that 'analogue board'. Looks to have metal heatsink tabs so I am going to make a wild guess that it's a TDA1170 vertical deflection IC Are there any other ICs on the board? My guess is that the 'analogue board' could be reverse-engineered without too much work. Can you provide a clear picture of the component side of the board with nothing else in the way? -tony From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 31 15:39:05 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:39:05 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <14c1bd.4daa90f1.454905e8@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2016 12:36:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, isking at uw.edu writes: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:29 PM, wrote: > > ... > I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or > was a pdp-11/20 like we have.. > I know they are essentially the same at this time point they got > their PDP 11 what did it say on the front panel I wonder? > (figuring all this stuff out for titling up the cards in the 11/20 > display we are planning.) > I think we had this discussion a while back, but I know that my 11/20 just says 'PDP-11' on the front panel. I've also seen them with '11/20', which is almost certainly a later naming as the -11 line grew. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." ok just re-clarifing.... so then w would be safe in reading the unix history - the 11 they had since when they got it a disk was not avail. (??? REALLY!!?? Hard to believe DEC would ship a processor without disc i/o??? COMMENTS? ) would have just probably said PDP-11 Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 31 15:41:22 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <20161031204122.E2C6E18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ed Sharpe > I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or was a > pdp-11/20 like we have Others have better info on this than me... > at this time point they got their PDP 11 what did it say on the front > panel I wonder? I'm going to _guess_ that it was the earlier caption; I definitely recall reading somewhere (maybe that history thing I already provided a link to) that when the PDP-11/20 first arrived, DEC didn't have a disk drive for it, and so it sat in a corner for some months (running some chess problem) until the disk arrived. So that argues that it was a very early production machine. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 31 14:48:10 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:48:10 +0100 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/10/2016 20:51, "tony duell" wrote: > >> My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board >> that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and > > Well, it won't be _powered_ from that IC. My guess is that said IC provides > the HSync and VSync signals, the video comes from other devices on the > main PCB. But that is a guess without seeing the machine/ My earlier google-fu was hampered by getting the IC number wrong and taking a macro photo of it has shown my error, it's actually a Plessey MR9735 Teletext/Viewdata chip that 'drives a 625 line Colour Television Receiver to display the contents of the Page Store' http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dlmain/4d6e79fdc0fb675d8dd857876f8d6bdd195f5 7/M/MR9735 >> Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this >> analogue board? > > You haven't told us what the problem is. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard2.jpg Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what the pot controlled. I can *nearly* get a steady picture but the brightness is out as well, despite there being working pots for that and contrast. The brightness seemed more constant before I replaced the radial cap with the PET one which is why I wondered if the choice was wrong. > Do you get anything on the screen? Is the CRT heater glowing? Have you > measured the CRT pin voltages? There's a recognisable picture, yes. > I can see one IC on that 'analogue board'. Looks to have metal heatsink > tabs so I am going to make a wild guess that it's a TDA1170 vertical > deflection IC Are there any other ICs on the board? My guess is that > the 'analogue board' could be reverse-engineered without too much > work. It is indeed a TDA1170, there's also a TDA1180P. Here's the machine in all its glory: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutel01.jpg Board: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelBoard.jpg Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 31 16:04:10 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:04:10 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <14fc3f.6bc6d507.45490bca@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2016 1:58:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ajp166 at verizon.net writes: > ... > I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or > was a pdp-11/20 like we have.. At that time PDP-11 was a general architecture name and 11/mumble was a specific system. Keep in mind that new versions of the -11 would evolve soon after introduction and continue over time for decades. Add to that there were both processor naming and system configuration naming conventions. > I know they are essentially the same at this time point they got > their PDP 11 what did it say on the front panel I wonder? > (figuring all this stuff out for titling up the cards in the 11/20 > display we are planning.) Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook! Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions and see the difference. Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors. Allison > OK I have seen both on Panels pdp-11 and pdp 11/20 figured the first issuance would say pdp-11 only on panel Ed# From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 31 16:12:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:12:16 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <150a78.6666255e.45490db0@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2016 1:41:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > From: Ed Sharpe > I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or was a > pdp-11/20 like we have Others have better info on this than me... > at this time point they got their PDP 11 what did it say on the front > panel I wonder? I'm going to _guess_ that it was the earlier caption; I definitely recall reading somewhere (maybe that history thing I already provided a link to) that when the PDP-11/20 first arrived, DEC didn't have a disk drive for it, and so it sat in a corner for some months (running some chess problem) until the disk arrived. So that argues that it was a very early production machine. Noel Noel - OK that is what I also read.... so probably would have said PDP-11 on the front panel not 11/20 if it was that early if we subscribe to the theory that the ones labeled 11 only were before the 11/20 I do wonder if there are any photograph of the system they used at the get go of the PDP-11 use? Need a photo that has definite date info.... yes, the systems are the same but some of this is important as I do the display cards for the 11/20 we have here at SMECC Thx Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 16:15:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:15:26 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: <77e593ca-a52e-aef7-0c77-7b204fc39074@verizon.net> References: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> <77e593ca-a52e-aef7-0c77-7b204fc39074@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook! Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions > and > see the difference. Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors. > > > Allison > >> thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) >> >> >> Here is a thread I posted on my site, with link to the first printing of the PDP 11 brochure. The first PDP 11 models had no "/nn" on the front panel.. see for yourself. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Bill From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 16:30:56 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:30:56 +1300 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System In-Reply-To: References: <1409e7.5c8d49ee.4548f59c@aol.com> <77e593ca-a52e-aef7-0c77-7b204fc39074@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, william degnan wrote: >> >> Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook! Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions >> and >> see the difference. Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors. >> >> >> Allison >> >>> thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) >>> >>> >>> > > Here is a thread I posted on my site, with link to the first printing of > the PDP 11 brochure. The first PDP 11 models had no "/nn" on the front > panel.. see for yourself. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Mine is a very early example - number 636 IIRC - and it just says 'pdp-11' on the front: http://www.corestore.org/1120-1.jpg Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Oct 31 16:22:12 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 21:22:12 +0000 (WET) Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:48:10 +0100" References: Message-ID: <01Q6S1JNPZO40008S0@beyondthepale.ie> > > Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the > display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what > the pot controlled. I can *nearly* get a steady picture but the brightness > is out as well, despite there being working pots for that and contrast. The > brightness seemed more constant before I replaced the radial cap with the > PET one which is why I wondered if the choice was wrong. > Did you measure the resistance of the track on the old potentiometer and use something with a similar value for the replacement? Is it possible that you misread or misinterpreted the value of the capacitor that you replaced? You could try putting the old one back and seeing if there is an improvement. What is PET in this context? I am assuming it is nothing to do with Commodore. Can you take a photograph of what you are seeing on the screen? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:29:04 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 21:29:04 +0000 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the > display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what OK... The TDA1180 is the horizontal oscillator, etc, IC. It's well-known. Start by getting its data sheet. Indentify the horizontal oscillator components connected to pins 12, 13, 14, 15 of that IC. Typically you will find a pot that controls the DC voltage on pin 15 (slider of pot to pin 15 through a resistor). That sets the free-running horizontal frequency Now try adjusting it. If you can get the oscillator to run both too fast and too slow (lines sloping both ways) that that part is most likely fine and the fault is in the sync circuit. If not, then the oscillator components have problems. Are you getting a sync pulse at pin 8 of the IC? If not, trace back from there to the connector to the logic board and if necessary to the video IC. Are you getting a flyback pulse at pin 6? The horizontal control circuit is basically a phase-locked loop comparing the incoming sync pulses with flyback signal from the horizontal output stage. -tony From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 31 16:48:35 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:48:35 -0400 Subject: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System Message-ID: <154f3a.c981bd7.45491632@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2016 2:31:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tmfdmike at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, william degnan wrote: >> >> Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook! Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions >> and >> see the difference. Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors. >> >> >> Allison >> >>> thanks Ed Sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) >>> >>> >>> > > Here is a thread I posted on my site, with link to the first printing of > the PDP 11 brochure. The first PDP 11 models had no "/nn" on the front > panel.. see for yourself. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Mine is a very early example - number 636 IIRC - and it just says 'pdp-11' on the front: http://www.corestore.org/1120-1.jpg Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' Mike OK that is a great indicator! serial# and date wise! Ed# From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Mon Oct 31 17:08:28 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:08:28 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1FC3A26434CF49198951CD6C56DE033C@Vincew7> > > From: Don North > > Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software > > I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the > original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does > anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.) Isn't there some weird crap in track 0 on DECmate RX01s, which has to be written in 8b mode instead of 12b mode? Vince From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 17:14:22 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:14:22 -0500 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this analogue board?" Might be helpful if you mentioned exactly what is or isn't wrong with the unit.. describe the symptom(s), etc. On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > I think I know the answer to this before I even ask, and that answer will > be > 'got a schematic' to which the answer's 'no and I doubt one exists any > more' > but... > > My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board > that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and > at least one of the adjustment potentiometers has suffered metal fatigue > and > broken: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenPot.jpg > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard.jpg > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelDisplayChip.jpg > > I've replaced it with a seemingly common 10K modern part that I had in my > spares box but it's unknown whether the display worked at all prior to it > being put in very damp storage, also the rating of the failed pot isn't > known but the capacitor next to it is 50V. > > I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them > was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's > website > and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it > SHOULD > be OK. > > Power supply is known good because it's one of my working ones, the > original > is still dead. > > Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this > analogue board? > > Cheers! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:29:39 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:29:39 +0100 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/10/2016 22:29, "tony duell" wrote: > >> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the >> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what > > OK... The TDA1180 is the horizontal oscillator, etc, IC. It's well-known. > > Start by getting its data sheet. Indentify the horizontal oscillator > components > connected to pins 12, 13, 14, 15 of that IC. Typically you will find a pot > that controls the DC voltage on pin 15 (slider of pot to pin 15 through a > resistor). That sets the free-running horizontal frequency That's the pot I replaced, it goes through a 22ohm resistor. > Now try adjusting it. If you can get the oscillator to run both too fast > and too slow (lines sloping both ways) that that part is most likely fine > and the fault is in the sync circuit. If not, then the oscillator components > have problems. Yep, lines sloping both ways is exactly what happens. Perhaps bizarrely this also seems to affect the contrast. > Are you getting a sync pulse at pin 8 of the IC? If not, trace back from > there to the connector to the logic board and if necessary to the video > IC. Pin 8 goes right back to a 74LS04 up near the RAM/ROM section of the motherboard. I'm going to see if it's possible to assemble the whole thing outside of the big plastic housing and still hold the screen as securely as possible, it's a complete pain to get the screen in its swivel top and connect up everything without risk of breakage. > Are you getting a flyback pulse at pin 6? The horizontal control circuit is > basically a phase-locked loop comparing the incoming sync pulses with > flyback signal from the horizontal output stage. Watch this space :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:06:37 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:06:37 +0100 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: <01Q6S1JNPZO40008S0@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 31/10/2016 22:22, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: >> >> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the >> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what >> the pot controlled. I can *nearly* get a steady picture but the brightness >> is out as well, despite there being working pots for that and contrast. The >> brightness seemed more constant before I replaced the radial cap with the >> PET one which is why I wondered if the choice was wrong. >> > > Did you measure the resistance of the track on the old potentiometer > and use something with a similar value for the replacement? > > Is it possible that you misread or misinterpreted the value of the capacitor > that you replaced? You could try putting the old one back and seeing if there > is an improvement. It says 10K on what's left of the wiper, there's a pic in an earlier message from tonight :) I can't put it back because it's physically rotted unfortunately. > What is PET in this context? I am assuming it is nothing to do with Commodore. PET as in the plastic housing, PET Film cap. I figured my replacement must be OK since there was one other on the board in that style already. > Can you take a photograph of what you are seeing on the screen? Once I've put it all back together, yes. Might be difficult to capture with a camera though but I'll have a go. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:10:17 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:10:17 +0100 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/10/2016 23:14, "drlegendre ." wrote: > "Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this > analogue board?" > > Might be helpful if you mentioned exactly what is or isn't wrong with the > unit.. describe the symptom(s), etc. I thought I'd ask before ploughing on with a full description. Even just typing the original question out has made me realise what the display driver chip is. See my replies to TonyD, there's more pictures there as well. Cheers! > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> I think I know the answer to this before I even ask, and that answer will >> be >> 'got a schematic' to which the answer's 'no and I doubt one exists any >> more' >> but... >> >> My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board >> that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and >> at least one of the adjustment potentiometers has suffered metal fatigue >> and >> broken: >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenPot.jpg >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard.jpg >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelDisplayChip.jpg >> >> I've replaced it with a seemingly common 10K modern part that I had in my >> spares box but it's unknown whether the display worked at all prior to it >> being put in very damp storage, also the rating of the failed pot isn't >> known but the capacitor next to it is 50V. >> >> I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them >> was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's >> website >> and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it >> SHOULD >> be OK. >> >> Power supply is known good because it's one of my working ones, the >> original >> is still dead. >> >> Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this >> analogue board? >> >> Cheers! >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? >> >> >> -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 31 18:45:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:45:34 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <1FC3A26434CF49198951CD6C56DE033C@Vincew7> References: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1FC3A26434CF49198951CD6C56DE033C@Vincew7> Message-ID: <08500a6f-e666-12cd-8274-99fcae1bbb22@bitsavers.org> On 10/31/16 3:08 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Isn't there some weird crap in track 0 on DECmate RX01s It is IBM 3740 table of contents information. GA21-9182-5_Diskette_General_Information_Manual_Jul80.pdf for the details From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 31 19:04:55 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> <7B4010C5-F285-4507-BCF1-52735318BA05@comcast.net> Message-ID: > If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed > media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 > at all. On a floppy? It might not be relevant HERE, but SOME computers have a different physical format on track 0 (such as systems that evolved from FM to MFM and continued to have track 0 be single density) Writing to track 0 could be hazardous to whatever is s'posed to be on track 0. From brian at marstella.net Mon Oct 31 19:22:49 2016 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:22:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pete, I think I might have a few Kinetic CAMAC brochures and user manuals. I'll have to dig around but if you don't have another source, maybe I can scan them. We had a 2 large crates in our testing lab that I kick myself for not taking. I had no use for them but it's still some interesting hardware. We had a couple of old IBM XTs interfaced to them. Regards, Brian. On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by > today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another > story. Recently > I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate > Controller . > A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane. > > The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there, > > Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then > anything. > > So .. anyone have the manual ? > > (*) - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_Control > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 31 19:33:01 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:33:01 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: References: <20161030124731.467BD18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1df62447-58d8-de54-5ed7-dd3bf9e1370e@alum.mit.edu> <7B4010C5-F285-4507-BCF1-52735318BA05@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/31/2016 12:41 PM, allison wrote: > On 10/31/16 3:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Oct 31, 2016, at 2:58 PM, jim stephens wrote: >>> >>> If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on >>> sealed media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to >>> cylinder 0 at all. >>> >>> The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a >>> defect map. Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would >>> then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated >>> than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / >>> sectors. >>> >>> I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that >>> could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used. Later >>> drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but >>> in those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned >>> to that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing. >> I haven't seen drives that put the defect data on track 0. DEC put >> it at the very end of the drive (see DEC Std 144). And as I recall, >> CDC did likewise in the 844 drives (RP04 lookalikes). As for software >> using that data, RSTS certainly did. >> CDC MMD and cmd put the map on cylinder 0. If you had a design that could read the track zero info, you could auto configure between MMD 160 and MMD80. Having the defect info on the last cylinder would have worked in that case, but in design meetings with the ANSI SCSI committee, the seek to a maximum cylinder would have meant the controller would need to know that in advance when powering up. Having the info on cylinder 0 with the defect list would allow for auto config. I don't know that it was used, but I don't recall any discussions with the info on the last cylinder, though I'm sure the DEC guys would have mentioned it were they in on the discussions. >> paul >> > But its not done (defect mapping) on floppies. defects on floppies > are a media or drive issue. > Also drive that grind away track 000 usually have enough gunk on the > head to take out other tracks. > Only talking about sealed media such ad MFM, SMD winchesters. I guess it wasn't clear. Maybe the discussion about starting @ track 1 was about floppies, and I missed that. > Allison > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 31 19:41:50 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:41:50 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/31/2016 5:22 PM, Brian Marstella wrote: > Pete, > > > Regards, Brian. > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by >> today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another >> story. Recently >> I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. I might mention there are some Tektronix to DEC boards, maybe Unibus on ebay if anyone has specialized Tek hardware that could be run by DEC. I don't know any more than that, but am curious if anyone has any ideas about what devices Tektronix had with DEC PDP11s integrated in. When I was first in school, there was a large system with what I'd guess was a larger PDP11 system (we had PDP 11/05 demos on another track to give time frame, 71-72). The system Tektronix had was essentially what we'd call a sampling scope now with an elaborate tube to digitize samples, and the PDP 11 analyzing them. Don't think it was ever a product, but it was massive, several bays. Out local EE and IEEE groups arranged for the demo to stop at our school. I believe there were FlipChip type boards listed, but am not seeing them right now. Boards below are clearly not for DEC boxes. thanks Jim Tektronix-P1B-R1340-TO-PDP-11-670-3317-02-SA3841-00-Multi-Interrupt-Interface-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/282002158488 Lot-of-3-Tektronix-670-3317-02-P3B-R1340-TO-PDP-11-670-3263-03-Multi-Interrup- http://www.ebay.com/itm/351702173881 From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 31 20:55:06 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:55:06 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5817F5FA.7030904@pico-systems.com> On 10/31/2016 01:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by > today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another > story. Well, actually, there are still a fair amount of CAMAC modules used in various research labs. > Recently > I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate > Controller . > A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane. > > The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there, > > Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then > anything. > > So .. anyone have the manual ? > > We had a 2911 and a 3911 (I think) at Washington University in St. Louis. in fact, I'm pretty sure it is STILL on a shelf in my office. We haven't used it in about 20 years. I think the 2911 was a set of boards to connect an ISA-bus PC to a CAMAC crate controller. Anyway, there are two parts, one plugs into the CAMAC crate master slots (24 and 25) and the other plugs into the bus of choice (Unibus, Q-bus or ISA, for instance). Actually, CAMAC is well documented, as it is an international standard. Slot 25 has "N" wires that select a slot (1 - 24) to be accessed. Each slot has an A address and a F (function) address that can be read or written. Slots 1-24 are wired with a 24-bit read bus and a 24-bit write bus. There is also a LAM (look at me) bus that works like an interrupt scheme. The 3912 plugs into slots 24 and 25. It was used very widely in nuclear research, but also in large industrial process control systems. I'll check at work tomorrow, I think we might still have the manuals for some of these modules. Jon