15 Oct
2025
15 Oct
'25
4:48 p.m.
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
Happy computing
Murray 🙂
15 Oct
15 Oct
5:27 p.m.
On 2025-10-15 3:48 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
Happy computing
Murray 🙂
I was thinking more "the Good, the bad, and the ugly".
The 70's saw the drop in TTL logic and memory prices, Cpu chips were a
product looking for a use. Only later did the 4 bit chips ran your
calculator,washer,microwave.
The EDUC-8, pronounced "educate", is an early microcomputer kit
published by Electronics Australia in a series of articles starting in
August 1974 and continuing to August 1975. Electronics Australia
initially believed that it was the first such kit, but later discovered
that Radio-Electronics had just beaten it with their Mark-8 by one
month. However, Electronics Australia staff believed that their TTL
design was superior to the Mark-8, as it did not require the purchase of
an expensive microprocessor chip. Wikipedia
Ben.
5:28 p.m.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
According to historians, and I consider myself one,
let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M.
"DOS"??!?
Every operating system called itself "DOS" from 360 through micros. When
IBM MS-DOS/PC-DOS achieved dominance, the generala public started calling
MS-DOS/PC-DOS, "DOS"
IBM explicitly considered "DOS"/"Disk Operating System" to be a
description, NOT A NAME! IBM did not trademark "DOS", nor even
"PC-DOS"!
MicroSoft, however, did trademark "MS-DOS"
In 1987, while on family business in Washington, DC, (my father's death),
I went to the patent and trademark office to research trademarking
"XenoSoft" UCSD had already trademarked "XenoFile" (did they ever
actually ship that?)
I also confirmed that "DOS", "PC-DOS" were not trademarked, bu MS-DOS
was.
IB_Irrelecant: three weeks later, at the curriculum committee meeting, one
xxxxxxx said that I could not call my OS Class "Microcomputer disk
Operating Systems", because "DOS" and "Disk Operating system" are
REGISTERED TRADEMARKS OF IBM"!!! I still had my stack pass from PTO in
my pocket! Soon after, I managed to get on the curriculum committee to
defend our department from
Like you apparently do, I consider those three (TRS80, AppleII, and
Commodore PET) to have been tied.
first announcement, first prototype, first [trade show] exhibit, first
taking orders, first delivered, first available without pre-order, etc.
are all importaant, but intermingled enough that by picking one of tose as
being "what's important", anybody could argue any one of the three as
being first.
The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS.
But, it behooves us to explicitly mention August 11, 1981 with the release
of the 5150 "PC".
We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!)
That may have been the title of the article that PCWorld did (they called
XenoCopy, "the acid test", because (at the insitence of the publisher,
that first release version of Xenocopy DRLIBERATELY refused to run on
anything but "real" 5150 (trivail look at some ROM addresses)
https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/cctalk@classiccmp.org/messa…
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
> The era
> of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
> designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
> Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
> theory(by the way not mine).
>
> Happy computing
>
> Murray 🙂
6:18 p.m.
On 2025-10-15 4:28 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
That I can live with. It is the horror of chip, the 8086 that I can't
live with
and marketing that went with it. Convert 8080 code to 8088 code.
first announcement, first prototype, first [trade show] exhibit, first
taking orders, first delivered, first available without pre-order, etc.
are all importaant, but intermingled enough that by picking one of tose
as being "what's important", anybody could argue any one of the three as
being first.
But it took the S-100 and other CP/M computers to educate the public
of what home computer was. The other computers where more GAME focused
machines.
I loved the APPLE II idea of split screen with hi-res graphics on the
top, and text on the bottom.
The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS.
But, it
behooves us to explicitly mention August 11, 1981 with the
release of the 5150 "PC". --
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Ben.
16 Oct
16 Oct
9:24 a.m.
On Oct 15, 2025, at 6:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
Indeed. The 360 early on had a DOS, the little brother of OS/360, and I think even a TOS
though I never saw either. The first DOS I used was DOS-11, an amazingly crude
single-user OS for the PDP-11. Mostly it was how we did system generation for RSTS-11,
though in my first year in college it also was the OS for the physics department lab
control computer. I fixed that the next year by moving them to RT-11.
paul
According to historians, and I consider myself
one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M.
"DOS"??!?
Every operating system called itself "DOS" from 360 through micros. 
9:50 a.m.
Don’t forget BOS/360.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOS/360
On Oct 16, 2025, at 07:33, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025, at 6:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M.
"DOS"??!?
Every operating system called itself "DOS" from 360 through micros.
Indeed. The 360 early on had a DOS, the little brother of OS/360, and I think even a TOS
though I never saw either. The first DOS I used was DOS-11, an amazingly crude
single-user OS for the PDP-11. Mostly it was how we did system generation for RSTS-11,
though in my first year in college it also was the OS for the physics department lab
control computer. I fixed that the next year by moving them to RT-11.
paul
15 Oct
15 Oct
5:46 p.m.
Incoming!
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 5:57 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
Happy computing
Murray 🙂
6:01 p.m.
On 2025-10-15 3:48 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
The DG NOVA computer is a better example when I think of the 70's for
computing. It was one of the early mass production designs.
Before that computers where hand built for the customer, with SSI chips
if any.The IBM 1130,PDP 9, PDP 8, come to mind.
The 8' floppy drive and the smaller shit was just the right size for
micros that had no memory to spare for disk buffers.
Big drives where for the real computers, with FORTRAN IV, no MICROSOFT
BASIC here.
Happy computing
Computer magazines like Kilobyte, Byte and Dr. Dobb's was my reading
material.
Only with online material have I been reading the trade magazines of the
70's.The surplus AD's like used 1K x 36 bit core plane comes to mind here.
Murray 🙂
Ben.
8:58 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:17 PM ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 2025-10-15 3:48 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk
wrote:
As a person who could claim to be a "qualified amateur" historian I am
trying to get what you're saying here. I throw the flag on a blanket
statement "what classic/vintage computers were..", especially when the
facts you present are not really accurate historically.
First of all, and I have said this before, vintage means, "of an era" so
it's more historically correct to use a more specific term like vintage
70's micocomputing or vintage 8-bit computers, etc. to describe what *you*
mean by "vintage computers" Bare in mind in the 70s the far more
significant dollars spent, marketshare, bits through wires and however
you'd want to measure was within mini and mainframe computing, in
particular manufactured by IBM. Your statement "...the OS was DOS and
its ink + CP/M.." is totally incorrect for the 70s, but that might just be
a typo on your part. Not sure what DOS you're talking about specifically
but IBM DOS was not sold until the early 1980s. There were many OS's in
the 60's and 70's, but the huge majority of these, the significant ones
were installed on mainframes and minicomputers.
I honestly don't have a beef with your opinions, I can't police everyone's
knowledge, but I suggest you need to do some readin' on the subject first.
Start with Steve Levy's book Hackers followed by "A History of Modern
Computing" by Paul Ceruzzi.
I hope you take my comments as a friendly feedback to your statements
Bill
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The
1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS
& IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The
era
of old computers saw one generation building on
the shoulders of giants
who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies
to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
The DG NOVA computer is a better example when I think of the 70's for
computing. It was one of the early mass production designs.
Before that computers where hand built for the customer, with SSI chips
if any.The IBM 1130,PDP 9, PDP 8, come to mind.
The 8' floppy drive and the smaller shit was just the right size for
micros that had no memory to spare for disk buffers.
Big drives where for the real computers, with FORTRAN IV, no MICROSOFT
BASIC here.
Happy computing
16 Oct
16 Oct
6:52 a.m.
Ummh... The 1970s were dominated by mainframes and minicomputers. The
1980s by mainframes, minicomputers and workstations. Pretty much all
modern operating systems (especially macOS, android and of course
linux) are based on UNIX that originated in the minicomputer
world.
Oh, and ARM originally stood for "Acorn RISC Machine", and was
developed by Acorn Computers for their Acorn Archimedes, running
RISC OS.
Julf
On 15/10/2025 23:48, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
Happy computing
Murray 🙂
8:13 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 1:07 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Oh, and ARM originally stood for "Acorn RISC Machine", and was
developed by Acorn Computers for their Acorn Archimedes, running
RISC OS.
There's a very good explanation of the history leading to the development
of RISC OS at https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/how_risc_os_happened/
There was also RISCiX, a development of BSD 4.3 with some tricks to get
around the large page size of the memory controller and small size of the
hard disc. This was developed for Olivetti (then owner of Acorn) as a
desktop publishing machine (the A680, contemporary with the A500 Paul
mentions) but not released as far as I know. RISCiX appeared as the R140 (a
rebranded A440) and later a RISCiX branding of the A540 (R280 ?) which
ganged up to 4 MEMCs for 16MB of RAM.
7:20 a.m.
I don't consider myself a historian but I enjoy talking about computer history.
I think during the 70s, 80s and 90s there were a lot more than just
the ones mentioned because there were multiple computer segments.
Large Scale and Mainframe Computing.
Office / Business Micro Computing
Industrial Computing
Home Computing
Then eventually Video and other types that elude me at the moment.
And even everything I just said is rather over simplified.
Yes, the Apple II, TRS-80 and Commodore PET, were important. But so
were the S100s, The Atari's, Commodore, Sun, HP, SGI, etc.
We had so many different companies with so many different hardware and
OS solutions competing.
You can argue we still do, but that computing is past the mainframe,
mini and desktop and on to distributed, mobile and wearable.
I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 5:57 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
Happy computing
Murray 🙂
4:11 p.m.
For cars, I think most states offer the "classic car" designation at 20
years?
Search for "VCF Domesticating the Computer" for my VCF talk on an overview
of computing history (but yes, with more of a focus on the 1970s).
Towards the end is a white background chart where I try to show the
"merging" of minicomputers and microcomputers (that comes together with the
386 around 1986/1987). Elsewhere is a US government sponsored report,
indicating that 50% of households still didn't have a computer until
1992/1993.
But home/personal computer is just one slice of all this. VAX/VMS was
another established OS (around mid/late 1970s). CP/M (to my knowledge)
never broke the "64K barrier" -- I'm not sure if QDOS did either, but it
was at least a good enough baseline for PC/MS-DOS to later evolve towards
the more organic .EXE format.
It's ironic how I think Microsoft internally was said to be adamant about
not calling it "DOS" and using "MS-DOS" consistently (in
documentation,
discussions, ads, etc). And yet, their software installed to C:\DOS :)
- Steve
On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 5:12 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi everyone,
According to historians, and I consider myself one, let us consider what
classic/vintage computers were: The 1970s saw the three amigos: Apple II,
TRS-80 and Commodore PET and the OS was DOS and its ilk + CP/M. The 1980’s
saw the Dells, HPs and many others with MS-DOS & IBM PC-DOS from QDOS. We
saw this and behold ’bring on the clones’(I just had to say this!) The era
of old computers saw one generation building on the shoulders of giants who
designed these wayback computers(with apologies to Wayback Machine).
Today’s PCs and ARM machines are just the latest iteration of this
theory(by the way not mine).
Happy computing
Murray 🙂
4:56 p.m.
On 2025-10-16 3:11 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
For cars, I think most states offer the "classic
car" designation at 20
years?
But home/personal computer is just one slice of all
this. VAX/VMS was
another established OS (around mid/late 1970s). CP/M (to my knowledge)
never broke the "64K barrier" -- I'm not sure if QDOS did either, but it
was at least a good enough baseline for PC/MS-DOS to later evolve towards
the more organic .EXE format.
I think CP/M for the 68000 broke the 64K barrier.
Not having sub-directories was the real limitation.
The 6809 was needed for a better OS's than CP/M.
- Steve
Ben.
8:01 p.m.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
For cars, I think most states offer the "classic
car" designation at 20
years?
Each genre has its own definitions of "vintage", "classic",
"antique",
etc.
A DMV/automotive set of thresholds is not especially accurate for
computers, cameras, typewriters, sewing machines, tubas (we miss you,
Chuck),
For a car, ten years is a long time, and the dealer will want to
discontinue carrying parts!
Some makes and models of cars don't last ten years
and auto makers don't WANT them to last;
In 1955, Harley J. Earl (GM design), announce that average ownership had
fallen from five years to two!
"When it is one year, we will have a perfect score", he said.
(cf Vance Packard, "The Waste makers")
There are many in the computer industry who want planned obsolscence.
Software that requires buying a new computer, computer that will only
work with this weeks software, etc.
Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
Yes, printers and stuff add features. But, there is no reason why they
can't work with their legacy drivers.
How much disk space would it take for Windows 11 to have additional
code code to let it use Windows XP, Win95, etc. drivers? (YES, but even
if you can not get use of this week's Smell-O-Vision)
They really do want you to throw your stuff out, and buy new ALL THE TIME
Some of the newest, and I consider "CURRENT" of my computers are older
than that, and not hurting for age.
I use Windows 7, and XP; both of which are no longer supported, and
browsers gripe.
I heard that Microsoft officially discontinued support of Windows 10,
October 14, 2025, day before yesterday!
It's ironic how I think Microsoft internally was
said to be adamant about
not calling it "DOS" and using "MS-DOS" consistently (in
documentation,
discussions, ads, etc). And yet, their software installed to C:\DOS :)
Well, they trademarked "MS-DOS", but could not trademark "DOS".
(no matter what some xxxx from the English department might say at
curriculum meeting)
DOS was the common noun, MS-DOS was the "proper noutn"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:18 p.m.
> It's ironic how I think Microsoft internally
was said to be adamant about
> not calling it "DOS" and using "MS-DOS" consistently (in
documentation,
> discussions, ads, etc). And yet, their software installed to C:\DOS :)
Well, they trademarked "MS-DOS", but could
not trademark "DOS".
(no matter what some xxxx from the English department might say at curriculum
meeting)
DOS was the common noun, MS-DOS was the "proper noutn"
All agreed that DOS/Disk Operating System had prior use, waxs generic
for ALL computers, and was not a name.
IBM actually said at one time that PC-DOS (Disk Operating System for
Personal Computer) was a description of the product, NOT a name.
(even though that is what is used to differentiate it from all other DOS)
Whereas, Microsoft considered "MS-DOS" to be a name!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
17 Oct
17 Oct
2:06 a.m.
On 17/10/2025 03:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work with
legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
Not really. See how *BSD and even Linux supports really old hardware.
I would turn the question around. Is there any reason to use Windows? :)
Julf
3:27 a.m.
On 2025-10-17 1:06 a.m., Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
On 17/10/2025 03:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
FREE Fpga and pal software.
Unix versions are big money.
Ben.
PS:
GAMES is the correct answer.
Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work
with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
Not really. See how *BSD and even Linux supports really old hardware.
I would turn the question around. Is there any reason to use Windows? :)
Julf
6:17 a.m.
Both Xilinx and Microchip have linux builds of their tools. Also, news to me that Linux
or Windows FPGA tools cost money, not for "simple" devices see
https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-dont-require-license/ .
Note that "simple" devices are pretty complex : Artix, Zynq 030, UltraZynq 7EV,
etc see
https://www.amd.com/en/products/software/adaptive-socs-and-fpgas/vivado/viv…
As for PALs Lattice support for anything prior to the XO2's is priced at legacy
support rates, the users are expected to be performing long term support of obsolete
systems (cheaper to pay than redesign) for the obvious client list, I suspect the tools
would otherwise have been orphaned. Hard pressed to see what else you might use a PAL for
in 2025.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: ben via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 17 October 2025 08:27
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: ben <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-17 1:06 a.m., Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
On 17/10/2025 03:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
FREE Fpga and pal software.
Unix versions are big money.
Ben.
PS:
GAMES is the correct answer.
Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work
with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
Not really. See how *BSD and even Linux supports really old hardware.
I would turn the question around. Is there any reason to use Windows?
:)
Julf
7:58 a.m.
On Oct 17, 2025, at 7:17 AM, Martin Bishop via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Both Xilinx and Microchip have linux builds of their tools. Also, news to me that Linux
or Windows FPGA tools cost money, not for "simple" devices see
https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-dont-require-license/ .
Note that "simple" devices are pretty complex : Artix, Zynq 030, UltraZynq 7EV,
etc see
https://www.amd.com/en/products/software/adaptive-socs-and-fpgas/vivado/viv…
Yes, Xilinx seems to be quite good about free licenses for most anything hobbyists are
likely to use.
As for PALs Lattice support for anything prior to the
XO2's is priced at legacy support rates, the users are expected to be performing long
term support of obsolete systems (cheaper to pay than redesign) for the obvious client
list, I suspect the tools would otherwise have been orphaned. Hard pressed to see what
else you might use a PAL for in 2025.
I used to pay Lattice for license renewal for CPLD design I did occasionally. Finally
dropped it when the pricing got out of hand.
For hobby purposes, it's occasionally frustrating that somewhat more advanced IP
isn't available in hobbyist form. I would like to do a software defined radio with
modern front end chips, but they are all JESD and the Xilinx IP for that is only available
under an expensive commercial license, not a hobby or even academic license last I looked.
And trying to spin my own JESD might be doable but certainly seems quite hard.
paul
12:02 p.m.
Paul
You are quite correct regarding the utility and limitations of Amd and Lattice's
offerings.
Like you I have "dead" Lattice CPLD designs. Where clone's won't serve
a respin to XO2 being necessary. Best not to ask how long the XO2 licence will be gratis.
I was once assured by an FAE that the "cheap" way to obtain IP was as an element
of a support bundle : training credits, IP and tools licenses for an N kilo quantity of
currency. Not cheap enough for /work.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning@comcast.net]
Sent: 17 October 2025 12:59
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Martin Bishop <mjd.bishop(a)emeritus-solutions.com>
Subject: Re: [cctalk] Classic computing - earliest years
On Oct 17, 2025, at 7:17 AM, Martin Bishop via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Both Xilinx and Microchip have linux builds of their tools. Also, news to me that Linux
or Windows FPGA tools cost money, not for "simple" devices see
https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-dont-require-license/ .
Note that "simple" devices are pretty complex : Artix, Zynq 030, UltraZynq 7EV,
etc see
https://www.amd.com/en/products/software/adaptive-socs-and-fpgas/vivado/viv…
Yes, Xilinx seems to be quite good about free licenses for most anything hobbyists are
likely to use.
As for PALs Lattice support for anything prior to the
XO2's is priced at legacy support rates, the users are expected to be performing long
term support of obsolete systems (cheaper to pay than redesign) for the obvious client
list, I suspect the tools would otherwise have been orphaned. Hard pressed to see what
else you might use a PAL for in 2025.
I used to pay Lattice for license renewal for CPLD design I did occasionally. Finally
dropped it when the pricing got out of hand.
For hobby purposes, it's occasionally frustrating that somewhat more advanced IP
isn't available in hobbyist form. I would like to do a software defined radio with
modern front end chips, but they are all JESD and the Xilinx IP for that is only available
under an expensive commercial license, not a hobby or even academic license last I looked.
And trying to spin my own JESD might be doable but certainly seems quite hard.
paul
12:25 p.m.
Re: Old Windows drivers.
Drivers written for windows before Vista will not work in windows Vista and later. This is
because MS changed the way drivers are initiated from vista on so old drivers simply won’t
start.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 17, 2025, at 10:13, Martin Bishop via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Paul
You are quite correct regarding the utility and limitations of Amd and Lattice's
offerings.
Like you I have "dead" Lattice CPLD designs. Where clone's won't serve
a respin to XO2 being necessary. Best not to ask how long the XO2 licence will be gratis.
I was once assured by an FAE that the "cheap" way to obtain IP was as an
element of a support bundle : training credits, IP and tools licenses for an N kilo
quantity of currency. Not cheap enough for /work.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning@comcast.net]
Sent: 17 October 2025 12:59
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Martin Bishop <mjd.bishop(a)emeritus-solutions.com>
Subject: Re: [cctalk] Classic computing - earliest years
On Oct 17, 2025, at 7:17 AM, Martin Bishop via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Both Xilinx and Microchip have linux builds of their tools. Also, news to me that Linux
or Windows FPGA tools cost money, not for "simple" devices see
https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-dont-require-license/ .
Note that "simple" devices are pretty complex : Artix, Zynq 030, UltraZynq 7EV,
etc see
https://www.amd.com/en/products/software/adaptive-socs-and-fpgas/vivado/viv…
Yes, Xilinx seems to be quite good about free licenses for most anything hobbyists are
likely to use.
As for PALs Lattice support for anything prior to
the XO2's is priced at legacy support rates, the users are expected to be performing
long term support of obsolete systems (cheaper to pay than redesign) for the obvious
client list, I suspect the tools would otherwise have been orphaned. Hard pressed to see
what else you might use a PAL for in 2025.
I used to pay Lattice for license renewal for CPLD design I did occasionally. Finally
dropped it when the pricing got out of hand.
For hobby purposes, it's occasionally frustrating that somewhat more advanced IP
isn't available in hobbyist form. I would like to do a software defined radio with
modern front end chips, but they are all JESD and the Xilinx IP for that is only available
under an expensive commercial license, not a hobby or even academic license last I looked.
And trying to spin my own JESD might be doable but certainly seems quite hard.
paul
12:45 p.m.
On Oct 17, 2025, at 1:02 PM, Martin Bishop
<mjd.bishop(a)emeritus-solutions.com> wrote:
Paul
You are quite correct regarding the utility and limitations of Amd and Lattice's
offerings.
Like you I have "dead" Lattice CPLD designs. Where clone's won't serve
a respin to XO2 being necessary. Best not to ask how long the XO2 licence will be gratis.
I was once assured by an FAE that the "cheap" way to obtain IP was as an
element of a support bundle : training credits, IP and tools licenses for an N kilo
quantity of currency. Not cheap enough for /work.
In my case, the design is for an early technology software defined radio; the CPLD (coded
in ABL) implements an EPP mode parallel printer port interface. I recently fired that
board up again, using a Raspberry Pico to talk to it. If I ever want to take it further,
I'd probably just pull out the 2032 CPLD entirely and hook up a Pico in its place.
Faster and far easier to program, not to mention much lower cost.
It's a fun design, with Harris (Intersil) 50214/50215 SDR chips, but the A/D is only
12 bits and combined with a clock rate of just 100 MHz it isn't all that high
performance. For 1999 it was pretty nice, though.
If I were to do a followup I'd probably try the Zedboard based SDR that a ham in
Germany published a couple of years ago. That's where the desire to get affordable
JESD appears; he didn't use that and instead needed a large number of pins for a
parallel interface.
paul
10:22 a.m.
On 10/17/25 06:17, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
Both Xilinx and Microchip have linux builds of their
tools. Also, news to me that Linux or Windows FPGA tools cost money, not for
"simple" devices see
https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-dont-require-license/ .
I've been using Xilinx iSE tools on Linux for about a
decade. There are some install quirks, especially for
running in a 64-bit environment, but they are easy to sort
out. I have stayed with Xilinx 9500XL CPLDs and Spartan 3A
FPGAs as they do all I need. I also like leaded packages as
the non-leaded and BGA packages are hard to solder reliably.
Jon
12:23 p.m.
Jon
I've never had great trouble soldering gull wing packages with lead free solder,
although these days that only really covers selected Lattice XO2 parts. Equally, jelly
beans and passives I don't find problematic with lead free solder : hand assembly
using solder paste, preheater, hot air and a limited hot stick rework. And most
difficulties seem susceptible to some combination of preheating and the application of
flux from a pen or syringe.
On a larger scale, assemblers seems capable of working with BGA stuff successfully. My
bete noir package is the QFN, which can suffer from dry joints on the corner pins.
The Xilinx iSE tools are rather orphaned, I find it easiest to do what is necessary on a
legacy W7 host. I suspect I could learn better approaches from you. Currently, I mostly
use Zynq, Artix and XO2.
The paucity of contemporary devices in "usable" packages (ie PLCC) is a real
problem, BGA being an extra level of complexity, so I frequently cheat with modules. Not
that modules come without baggage and cost.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Elson via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 17 October 2025 15:23
To: Martin Bishop via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Jon Elson <elson(a)pico-systems.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/17/25 06:17, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
Both Xilinx and Microchip have linux builds of their
tools. Also, news to me that Linux or Windows FPGA tools cost money, not for
"simple" devices see
https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-dont-require-license/ .
I've been using Xilinx iSE tools on Linux for about a decade. There are some
install quirks, especially for running in a 64-bit environment, but they are easy to sort
out. I have stayed with Xilinx 9500XL CPLDs and Spartan 3A FPGAs as they do all I need.
I also like leaded packages as the non-leaded and BGA packages are hard to solder
reliably.
Jon
12:56 p.m.
On Oct 17, 2025, at 1:23 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Jon
I've never had great trouble soldering gull wing packages with lead free solder,
Some years ago I asked a professional board builder/repair person about switching to lead
free solder. Her advice was simple: "don't, not unless you are required
to". So I didn't. I keep a variety of real solder rolls around, preferably the
63/37 alloy.
paul
4:01 p.m.
In the UK it is either at the back of the cupboard or lead free, and effectively all
commercial new build is lead free.
A wireman assured me recently that mixing solder grades leads to ugly joints, so one must
keep a selection ;<)
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning@comcast.net]
Sent: 17 October 2025 17:56
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Martin Bishop <mjd.bishop(a)emeritus-solutions.com>
Subject: Re: [cctalk] Classic computing - earliest years
On Oct 17, 2025, at 1:23 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Jon
I've never had great trouble soldering gull wing packages with lead free solder,
Some years ago I asked a professional board builder/repair person about switching to lead
free solder. Her advice was simple: "don't, not unless you are required
to". So I didn't. I keep a variety of real solder rolls around, preferably the
63/37 alloy.
paul
7:27 a.m.
On 17/10/2025 08:06, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
On 17/10/2025 03:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
As an individual radio ham, Ham Radio Deluxe is widely reported not to
work under wine. The official line is here:-
https://support.hamradiodeluxe.com/support/solutions/articles/51000283068-d…
so yes it runs on windows in a VM under Linux, so thats really a no...
.. as an Medium Size Enterprise windows is attractive. Most everything
you need comes from one supplier. Users can easily logon to any PC. You
can manage software updates centrally out-of-the box.
That is not to say you can't do the same things with Linux, but there
isn't a single source of supply.
remember the people who run businesses are generally non-technical,
don't like managing technical staff, which makes a Microsoft "solution"
which would include desktop windows attractive.
Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work
with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
Not really. See how *BSD and even Linux supports really old hardware.
I would turn the question around. Is there any reason to use Windows? :)
Julf
Dave
7:48 a.m.
On 17/10/2025 14:27, David Wade via cctalk wrote:
.. as an Medium Size Enterprise windows is attractive.
Most everything
you need comes from one supplier.
Is that a feature or a bug? :)
remember the people who run businesses are generally
non-technical,
don't like managing technical staff, which makes a Microsoft "solution"
which would include desktop windows attractive.
Yes, it is the modern version of
the old "nobody ever got fired for
buying <X>", where <X> was first IBM, then DEC, then Cisco.
Julf
2:09 p.m.
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 09:06 +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
I would turn the question around. Is there any reason
to use Windows?
:)
The only Windoze I ever used was the one in OS/2 — which was a lot
faster because it has a 32-bit graphics engine instead of MS's 16-bit
code.
When NT finally arrived, a pundit in a trade rag (Spencer Katt?)
quipped "Using Windows NT is like having a child help you."
I switched from OS/2 Warp 5 to Linux when IBM announced there would be
no further developments — and OS/2 fdisk couldn't handle disks bigger
than 4 GB.
7:34 a.m.
Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work with
legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
For what it's worth, Windows 10 runs fine on an IBM Thinkpad X61 in 64
bit mode with no issues. 2007 system means it's running fine 19 years
later. I should fire it up and upgrade to Windows 11.....
How much disk space would it take for Windows 11 to
have additional code
code to let it use Windows XP, Win95, etc. drivers? (YES, but even if
you can not get use of this week's Smell-O-Vision)
The problem there is that Windows 11 just doesn't have 32 bit mode. I
can kind of understand this, unless you're using weird memory mapping
systems like PAE you're getting restricted with a 4gb max memory space.
Still that leaves systems from 2006 onward to work fine in 64 bit mode,
the question is does Windows 11 support Windows 7 64 bit drivers?
Chris
9:58 a.m.
On 10/17/25 05:34, cz via cctalk wrote:
That should be interesting. The problem with Windows 11 on older
hardware is the insistence upon a TPM-2.0 compliant TPM. There have
been some fitful work-arounds when a 1.2 TPM is installed, but with no
TPM hardware I seriously doubt you can convince that steaming pile of
crap to install, particularly since they seem to have decided to store
the BitLocker keys in the TPM.
This just seems like reason 1E+32 to avoid the Windows ecosystem when
possible.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
Is there ANY
reason why windows N can't work with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
For what it's worth, Windows 10 runs fine on an IBM Thinkpad X61 in 64
bit mode with no issues. 2007 system means it's running fine 19 years
later. I should fire it up and upgrade to Windows 11.....
11:21 a.m.
Interesting. Bitlocker keys work fine on the X61, they are stored in the
TPM and are pretty secure.
I really need to try this. And yes, there are a billion reasons to dunk
on Windows, but the fact that the OS runs on a 19 year old laptop is
still not too bad. My AT&T7300 can't match this, nor can any of the
Apple products (well you can hack the installer for Intel core duo stuff
but it's not really supported and Apple is seriously turning perfectly
good older hardware into trash)
Chris
On 10/17/2025 10:58 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
On 10/17/25 05:34, cz via cctalk wrote:
That should be interesting. The problem with Windows 11 on older
hardware is the insistence upon a TPM-2.0 compliant TPM. There have
been some fitful work-arounds when a 1.2 TPM is installed, but with no
TPM hardware I seriously doubt you can convince that steaming pile of
crap to install, particularly since they seem to have decided to store
the BitLocker keys in the TPM.
This just seems like reason 1E+32 to avoid the Windows ecosystem when
possible.
Is there
ANY reason why windows N can't work with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
For what it's worth, Windows 10 runs fine on an IBM Thinkpad X61 in 64
bit mode with no issues. 2007 system means it's running fine 19 years
later. I should fire it up and upgrade to Windows 11..... 
19 Oct
19 Oct
8:29 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 12:21:11PM -0400, cz via cctalk wrote:
Interesting. Bitlocker keys work fine on the X61, they
are stored in the TPM
and are pretty secure.
Depends. As long as your threat model does not include "technically
competent attacker has 20min of undisturbed time alone with the machine",
you are fine. It has been demonstrated years ago that by sniffing the
traffic to/from the TPM (by attaching probes) one can easily extract
the FDE keys and successfully mount the disk. More time if they want
to grab a full disk image.
Of course this threat requires:
- someone sufficiently interested in the contents of your laptop
- said someone being able the acquire the services of aforementioned
"competent attacker"
- said someone also preferring to be sneaky about it instead of going
for "rubber hose cryptanalysis"
So for most people, that tends not to be something they need to be worried
about.
I really need to try this. And yes, there are a
billion reasons to dunk on
Windows, but the fact that the OS runs on a 19 year old laptop is still not
NetBSD runs very well on a 19y old Sun Fire V100 ;-)
too bad. My AT&T7300 can't match this, nor can
any of the Apple products
(well you can hack the installer for Intel core duo stuff but it's not
really supported and Apple is seriously turning perfectly good older
hardware into trash)
There are multiple reasons why one sees Thinkpad laptops among geeks.
Decent documentation and long service life (my 14y old x220 still
works fine, though I missed the 1080 panel upgrade) are definitely
among them.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
3:54 p.m.
On Oct 17, 2025, at 12:21 PM, cz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. Bitlocker keys work fine on the X61, they are stored in the TPM and are
pretty secure.
I really need to try this. And yes, there are a billion reasons to dunk on Windows, but
the fact that the OS runs on a 19 year old laptop is still not too bad. My AT&T7300
can't match this, nor can any of the Apple products (well you can hack the installer
for Intel core duo stuff but it's not really supported and Apple is seriously turning
perfectly good older hardware into trash)
Chris
On 10/17/2025 10:58 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
For what it is worth (probably not much). I have had good luck using Open Source Legacy
Patcher on some rather old Apple hardware. Fun to keep those funky little 2013 Mac Pro
“Trash Cans” running.
Frank
On 10/17/25 05:34, cz via cctalk wrote:
That should be interesting. The problem with Windows 11 on older hardware is the
insistence upon a TPM-2.0 compliant TPM. There have been some fitful work-arounds when a
1.2 TPM is installed, but with no TPM hardware I seriously doubt you can convince that
steaming pile of crap to install, particularly since they seem to have decided to store
the BitLocker keys in the TPM.
This just seems like reason 1E+32 to avoid the Windows ecosystem when possible.
Is there
ANY reason why windows N can't work with legacy drivers from Windows N-1?
For what it's worth, Windows 10 runs fine on an IBM Thinkpad X61 in 64 bit mode with
no issues. 2007 system means it's running fine 19 years later. I should fire it up and
upgrade to Windows 11.....
4:40 p.m.
Gee, All the macs I have are old enough to be grandparents.
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 2:03 PM Frank Ventura via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
For what it is worth (probably not much). I have had good luck using Open
Source Legacy Patcher on some rather old Apple hardware. Fun to keep those
funky little 2013 Mac Pro “Trash Cans” running.
Frank
On Oct 17, 2025, at 12:21 PM, cz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Interesting. Bitlocker keys work fine on the X61, they are stored in the
TPM and are pretty secure.
I really need to try this. And yes, there are a billion reasons to dunk
on Windows, but the fact that the OS runs on a 19 year old laptop is still
not too bad. My AT&T7300 can't match this, nor can any of the Apple
products (well you can hack the installer for Intel core duo stuff but it's
not really supported and Apple is seriously turning perfectly good older
hardware into trash)
Chris
On 10/17/2025 10:58 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
> On 10/17/25 05:34, cz via cctalk wrote:
>>> Is there ANY reason why windows N can't work with legacy drivers from
Windows N-1?
>>
>> For what it's worth, Windows 10 runs fine on an IBM Thinkpad X61 in 64
bit mode with no issues. 2007 system means it's running fine 19 years
later. I should fire it up and upgrade to Windows 11.....
> That should be interesting. The problem with
Windows 11 on older
hardware is the insistence upon a TPM-2.0 compliant TPM. There have been
some fitful work-arounds when a 1.2 TPM is installed, but with no TPM
hardware I seriously doubt you can convince that steaming pile of crap to
install, particularly since they seem to have decided to store the
BitLocker keys in the TPM.
> This just seems like reason 1E+32 to avoid
the Windows ecosystem when
possible.
20 Oct
20 Oct
4:43 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025 at 22:03, Frank Ventura via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
For what it is worth (probably not much). I have had good luck using Open Source Legacy
Patcher on some rather old Apple hardware. Fun to keep those funky little 2013 Mac Pro
“Trash Cans” running.
I can second this - I had at least Ventura running on an original 2009
MacBookAir2,1 which was... an effective way to provide a point, even
if the point was that just because you can recent OS versions on a
machine, doesn't mean you should (unless you like the interactive
performance of a graphical UI on a VAX)
I also used it to get the latest macOS & XCode on a 2012 Macmini6,2,
which was just about useful as a build box for a small iOS flutter app
Obviously did not need it for my "anglepoise lamp" G4 iMac, which runs
NetBSD 11 Just Fine :-p
(If you want "technically still supports, though not useful in any
way", you should be able to boot NetBSD 11 on a Sun-2 from 1985, as
long as you get started soon and don't have any plans for
Christmas...)
On Oct 17, 2025, at 12:21 PM, cz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I really need to try this. And yes, there are a billion reasons to dunk on Windows, but
the fact that the OS runs on a 19 year old laptop is still not too bad.
My AT&T7300 can't match this, nor can any of the Apple products (well you can
hack the installer for Intel core duo stuff but it's not really supported and
Apple is seriously turning perfectly good older hardware into trash)
Well... currently Apple officially supports hardware back to about
2017, and Windows 11 officially supports hardware.... back to about
2017. I think dunkage due has about parity there.
If including rufus and other hacks to get Windows 11 installed on
older kit are included, then so should OpenCore Legacy Patcher... and
it remains about parity with respect to security updates as the Apple
side will automatically install any updates for that OS version, while
Windows 11 will lock you to whatever 24H3 base release you ended up
installing until it stops getting security updates.
Even then, I agree there are still better reasons to dunk on Windows
than support for older hardware - the official Microsoft statement of
"The vision that we have is: let’s rewrite the entire operating system
around AI, and build essentially what becomes truly the AI PC" (direct
quote) was the straw that finally nudged me to reformat my gaming PCs
from Windows to Linux. (I'm more that a little salty about that as I
had *finally* grown to quite like Windows 10 - not for my personal
machine, but for when I needed to work on someone else's or do
something that needed Windows)
Anyway, take care
David
3:25 p.m.
> Some makes and models of cars don't last ten
years
> and auto makers don't WANT them to last;
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Subaru: Built cheap and designed to stay that way.
Subaru was actually not the worst.
Think of Yugo! Imported into USA from 1985 - 1992
https://www.librarypoint.org/blogs/post/the-yugo/
It was brought in by Malcolm Bricklin. He had also been the one to bring
in Subaru 360, and founded subaru Of America.
The Subaru 360 (360cc, a quarter of VW's engine size), and the 600 (600cc)
MicroVan were absolutely not what the American public wanted.
They still considered VW to be the tiniest car, and certainly wouldn't consider
something half that size.
Subarus were first taken seriously when they went to a four cylinder water
cooled boxer engine in a car the size of most other "small" cars.
Honda brought the Honda 360 up to 600cc (AN600) for import to USA.
(cf "The First Honda Automobiles 1958-1970" by Don B. Laughton
(a mastrpiece labor of love)
And, then, three years later introduced the Civic.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:41 p.m.
On Oct 17, 2025, at 4:25 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
The Subaru 360 (360cc, a quarter of VW's engine size), and the 600 (600cc) MicroVan
were absolutely not what the American public wanted.
They still considered VW to be the tiniest car, and certainly wouldn't consider
something half that size.
For tiny, try this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 I remember
someone down the road from where I grew up had one. Funny looking things.
paul
4:08 p.m.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Paul Koning wrote:
For tiny, try this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 I remember someone down the road from
where I grew up had one. Funny looking things.
Those are wonderful! three wheel, two seater, passenger behind driver,
After the war, Messerschmitt couldn't build planes, but had the tooling
to make a great bubble canopy cockpit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200
Isetta: Was designed by an Italian refrigerator company, and looks it.
The door is on the front like a refrigerator. The one that I rode in, the
door wouldn't stay latched (like my refrigerator)
Four wheels, but rear are VERY close together; variants with a single rear
wheel were made for places where motorcycle registration was quite a bit
easier. BMW made and sold them until they decided to make CARS.
The r@re Isetta "limousine" adds a side door on the right, and room for a
person in the back seat.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/1144172/1958-bmw-isetta-600-limousine/
Check out the Microlino, https://microlino-car.com/en-us/microlino
a modern, electric, imitation Isetta!
No apparent plans for USA :-(
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:47 p.m.
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 14:08 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Isetta: Was designed by an Italian refrigerator
company, and looks
it.
The door is on the front like a refrigerator.
IIRC, there was an episode of Family Matters when some pranksters
exploited the lack of reverse gear in Urkel's Isetta. They pushed it up
against a wall with him in it.
19 Oct
19 Oct
9:20 a.m.
Once had to rescue a parking lot attendant who had driven an Isetta against
a wall... parked for free that evening ;-)
On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 5:58 PM Van Snyder via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 14:08 -0700, Fred Cisin via
cctalk wrote:
Isetta: Was designed by an Italian refrigerator
company, and looks
it.
The door is on the front like a refrigerator.
IIRC, there was an episode of Family Matters when some pranksters
exploited the lack of reverse gear in Urkel's Isetta. They pushed it up
against a wall with him in it.
9:37 a.m.
Interesting fact: the Messerschmitt did not have a reverse gear. Instead,
you turned off the ignition, pushed the key in, and started the engine
backwards.
I watched one get out of a tight parking space once; with its rather wide
turning radius it took several iterations of start, stop, restart etc.
Funny little car in many ways, wish I had one ;-)
On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 5:32 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Paul Koning wrote:
For tiny, try this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 I remember someone
down the road from where I grew up had one. Funny looking things.
Those are wonderful! three wheel, two seater, passenger behind driver,
After the war, Messerschmitt couldn't build planes, but had the tooling
to make a great bubble canopy cockpit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200
Isetta: Was designed by an Italian refrigerator company, and looks it.
The door is on the front like a refrigerator. The one that I rode in, the
door wouldn't stay latched (like my refrigerator)
Four wheels, but rear are VERY close together; variants with a single rear
wheel were made for places where motorcycle registration was quite a bit
easier. BMW made and sold them until they decided to make CARS.
The r@re Isetta "limousine" adds a side door on the right, and room for a
person in the back seat.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/1144172/1958-bmw-isetta-600-limousine/
Check out the Microlino, https://microlino-car.com/en-us/microlino
a modern, electric, imitation Isetta!
No apparent plans for USA :-(
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
17 Oct
17 Oct
3:47 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/17/25 15:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I worked on a few Yugos, and had a disproportionate number of friends
who owned them. My take:
They were designed & built on the AK-47 Principle - inelegant,
ultra-simple, no consideration at all for style, and manufactured to
intentionally ridiculous tolerances.
Turned out all that works a lot better in a rifle than an
internal-combustion vehicle.
If you accidentally got one that was built pretty tight they were solid
cars, but most of them died early when one bearing or another grenaded.
Doc
> Some makes
and models of cars don't last ten years
> and auto makers don't WANT them to last;
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Subaru: Built cheap and designed to stay that
way.
Subaru was actually not the worst.
Think of Yugo! Imported into USA from 1985 - 1992
https://www.librarypoint.org/blogs/post/the-yugo/
It was brought in by Malcolm Bricklin. He had also been the one to
bring in Subaru 360, and founded subaru Of America.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:02 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Or the glue didn’t hold any more!
I remember a news item when the Yugo was introduced where the gearshift liver was glued to
the transmission, and that was failing.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 17, 2025, at 13:58, Doc Shipley via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/17/25 15:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Subaru was actually not the worst.
Think of Yugo! Imported into USA from 1985 - 1992
https://www.librarypoint.org/blogs/post/the-yugo/
It was brought in by Malcolm Bricklin. He had also been the one to bring in Subaru 360,
and founded subaru Of America.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
I worked on a few Yugos, and had a disproportionate number of friends who owned them. My
take:
They were designed & built on the AK-47 Principle - inelegant, ultra-simple, no
consideration at all for style, and manufactured to intentionally ridiculous tolerances.
Turned out all that works a lot better in a rifle than an internal-combustion vehicle.
If you accidentally got one that was built pretty tight they were solid cars, but most of
them died early when one bearing or another grenaded.
Doc
Some makes and models of cars don't last ten years
and auto makers don't WANT them to last;
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Subaru: Built cheap and designed to stay that way.
4:44 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Or the glue didn’t hold any more!
I remember a news item when the Yugo was introduced where the gearshift liver was glued
to the transmission, and that was failing.
I loved my Saturn SL2, but it entered its twilight when the gearshift literally
snapped off when I turned from 101 onto 152, about 170K miles on it by then.
Fortunately it was in 1st gear so I managed to limp back across the highway
(garnering much abuse) to the dealer, where they were flabbergasted and took
all week to repair it. Now I wonder how it was attached but they never said.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- PRIVACY. IT'S EVERYONE'S BUSINESS. -- Evil, Inc. ---------------------------
19 Oct
19 Oct
8:32 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 03:20:16PM -0700, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 14:44 -0700, Cameron Kaiser via
cctalk wrote:
Well, the production line had clearly run out of baling wire that day.
SCNR,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Now I wonder how it was attached but they never
said.
Bubble gum and masking tape. Not even duct tape. 
17 Oct
17 Oct
4:06 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Oct 17, 2025, at 4:58 PM, Doc Shipley via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/17/25 15:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Subaru was actually not the worst.
Think of Yugo! Imported into USA from 1985 - 1992
https://www.librarypoint.org/blogs/post/the-yugo/
It was brought in by Malcolm Bricklin. He had also been the one to bring in Subaru 360,
and founded subaru Of America.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
I worked on a few Yugos, and had a disproportionate number of friends who owned them. My
take:
They were designed & built on the AK-47 Principle - inelegant, ultra-simple, no
consideration at all for style, and manufactured to intentionally ridiculous tolerances.
Turned out all that works a lot better in a rifle than an internal-combustion vehicle.
If you accidentally got one that was built pretty tight they were solid cars, but most of
them died early when one bearing or another grenaded.
Doc
Jason Vuic’s book on the Yugo is one of the better business history books out there. It
does into Bricklin’s insanity , the desire for cheap and small cars , brand rebadging, and
why Yugos were built with so low quality.
That quality boiled down to lack of quality controls and processes. It is why I refer to
Teslas as tech bro Yugos because Tesla makes the exact same mistakes that Yugo did with
their manufacturing process.
https://www.jasonvuic.com/the-yugo
-Andy Wallis
Some makes and models of cars don't last ten years
and auto makers don't WANT them to last;
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Subaru: Built cheap and designed to stay that way.
4:56 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Andy Wallis via cctalk wrote:
Jason Vuic’s book on the Yugo is one of the better
business history books out there. It does into Bricklin’s insanity , the desire for cheap
and small cars , brand rebadging, and why Yugos were built with so low quality.
That quality boiled down to lack of quality controls and processes. It is why I refer to
Teslas as tech bro Yugos because Tesla makes the exact same mistakes that Yugo did with
their manufacturing process.
https://www.jasonvuic.com/the-yugo
-Andy Wallis
Good price on Amazon $10.75
Good history, a bit short on technical specifications
https://www.amazon.com/Yugo-Rise-Fall-Worst-History/dp/0809098954
4:23 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 15:47 -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
I worked on a few Yugos, and had a disproportionate
number of friends
who owned them. My take:
They were designed & built on the AK-47 Principle - inelegant,
ultra-simple, no consideration at all for style, and manufactured to
intentionally ridiculous tolerances.
Turned out all that works a lot better in a rifle than an
internal-combustion vehicle.
Has anybody wondered why the English don't build computers?
They haven't figured out how to make them leak oil.
4:48 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Has anybody wondered why the English don't build
computers?
They haven't figured out how to make them leak oil.
Although how to leak oil remains a problem to solve, they can at
least use Lucas electrical parts!
Did they ever make a Dark Emitting Diode?
(there are other ways to accomplish things without needing AC capacitors
and DC wound transformers.)
There used to be some English computers, and some were very interesting.
Such as Amstrad
The Sinclair ZX80? (rebadged as Timex) doorstop wedge was the first
computer to sell for $100 or less in USA.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:07 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 14:48 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Microsoft tried to manufacture what we call light bulbs and get a
patent by calling them "darkness suckers."
Has anybody wondered why the English don't
build computers?
They haven't figured out how to make them leak oil.
Although how to leak oil remains a problem to solve, they can at
least use Lucas electrical parts!
Did they ever make a Dark Emitting Diode?
(there are other ways to accomplish things without
needing AC capacitors
and DC wound transformers.)
There used to be some English computers, and some were very interesting.
Such as Amstrad
The Sinclair ZX80? (rebadged as Timex) doorstop wedge was the first
computer to sell for $100 or less in USA.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:50 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems to be there
Well now, the steam engine originated in the UK in the 1700's
Cotton spinning machines and designs were half inched from the UK by the Yankees in the
1800's
More recently, the ARM architecture originated in the UK, the English Fens to be specific
Also from the English fens was Microprogramming, thanks to Maurice Wilkes of cantab ~1950
Then there is the Manchester Baby and its adjunct the Williams Tube, as copied by MIT in
the '50s .
But, if you want humour the C5 personal transporter (motorised clog) is another offering
from the Sinclair stable
Enjoy Fritag abend
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Cisin via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 17 October 2025 21:49
To: Van Snyder via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
Has anybody wondered why the English don't build
computers?
They haven't figured out how to make them leak oil.
Although how to leak oil remains a problem to solve, they can at least use Lucas
electrical parts!
Did they ever make a Dark Emitting Diode?
(there are other ways to accomplish things without needing AC capacitors and DC wound
transformers.)
There used to be some English computers, and some were very interesting.
Such as Amstrad
The Sinclair ZX80? (rebadged as Timex) doorstop wedge was the first computer to sell for
$100 or less in USA.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:59 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Martin Bishop wrote:
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems to be
there
[BeerMode raambling]
British beer is excellent, and always has been. (and, It doesn't need to
be cooled down to the edge of freezing)
My father used to say, "A pint is a pound, the wrold around"; if that ever
was true of British beer, it wouldn't be now, and even as a unit of
measure, a pint is ambiguous.
Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British cars and
motorcycles, and pretty much not an issue with anything else.
Many inventions come from UK. Including the parents/grandparents of the
USA inventors.
Bletchley Park was a major undertaking.
Without Alan Turing, where would we be?
Current AI, despite being STUPID and hallucinating, could probably pass
any of the earlier Turing tests.
(at one point, cchatGPT was asked for the last digit of PI;
a SERIOUS flaw in current AI design is to never let it answer, "I Don't
Know"! Also, there have been a LOT of legal cases where AI drew up
briefs, and included precedents that didn't exist!)
Sinclair did some brilliant and clever stuff.
There is nothing wrong with British computers.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:27 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-17 5:59 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
There is nothing wrong with British computers.
I can't think of any.
The arm cpu is doing well, but that is not a computer.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Ben.
7:42 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
> There is nothing wrong with British computers.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, ben via cctalk wrote:
I can't think of any.
The arm cpu is doing well, but that is not a computer.
All that I can think of right now are Sinclair and Amstrad.
I don't even know current status of those companies.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
18 Oct
18 Oct
1:03 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 18/10/2025 02:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
All that I can think of right now are Sinclair and
Amstrad.
Acorn, ICL, Ferranti, Apricot, Elliot, GEC, Jupiter, Nascom,
Torch, Tadpole, Whitechapel. Oh, and the Raspberry Pi, of course.
Even the Commodore Amiga 1200 was assembled in Scotland.
Julf
4:03 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 18/10/2025 07:03, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
On 18/10/2025 02:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I would say most every one on this list has one and possible several
British designed, and possibly UK assembled computers somewhere.
Whilst it does use chips made outside the Raspberry Pi is pretty much UK
designed, using an ARM CPU.
Much of the original layout and circuit was done by one by my old
friends Peter Lomas and it was initially assembled in Wales.
I understand that like the ARM chip it can be licenced by almost any one.
We have a history of helping IBM build computers...
.. their first electronic machine the IBM 701 used Kilburn-Williams
tubes, developed in Manchester and licenced to IBM
.. the later machines used Virtual Memory, developed for the Atlas
computer, again under licence from Manchester University..
.. Speculative Execution probably originates from Heuristic Caching
developed on the MU5 computer....
IBM also ran a major research centre at IBM Hursley, near Winchester,
UK , where CICS support was , and possibly still is based.
Today Manchester still does computer research, so Steve Furber one of
the original designers of the ARM chip has built a million core machine
for Neural Networks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpiNNaker
All that I can think of right now are Sinclair
and Amstrad.
Acorn, ICL, Ferranti, Apricot, Elliot, GEC, Jupiter,
Nascom,
Torch, Tadpole, Whitechapel. Oh, and the Raspberry Pi, of course.
Even the Commodore Amiga 1200 was assembled in Scotland.
Well IBM had several plants in the UK. Keyboards and IBM PCs were made
in Scotland. Disk Drives at Havant, Hampshire.
Julf
Dave
p.s. as for oil, IBM was I think the only company to put its core in Oil
Tanks. Not sure if they ever leaked, but some 70xx machines used this
technique to keep the temperature constant.
4:18 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
I believe the SAGE had oil cooled core. Oregon state had old core hooked to
the ancient nebula serial delay line / CAM machine.
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 2:12 AM David Wade via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 18/10/2025 07:03, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
On 18/10/2025 02:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I would say most every one on this list has one and possible several
British designed, and possibly UK assembled computers somewhere.
Whilst it does use chips made outside the Raspberry Pi is pretty much UK
designed, using an ARM CPU.
Much of the original layout and circuit was done by one by my old
friends Peter Lomas and it was initially assembled in Wales.
I understand that like the ARM chip it can be licenced by almost any one.
We have a history of helping IBM build computers...
.. their first electronic machine the IBM 701 used Kilburn-Williams
tubes, developed in Manchester and licenced to IBM
.. the later machines used Virtual Memory, developed for the Atlas
computer, again under licence from Manchester University..
.. Speculative Execution probably originates from Heuristic Caching
developed on the MU5 computer....
IBM also ran a major research centre at IBM Hursley, near Winchester,
UK , where CICS support was , and possibly still is based.
Today Manchester still does computer research, so Steve Furber one of
the original designers of the ARM chip has built a million core machine
for Neural Networks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpiNNaker
All that I can think of right now are Sinclair
and Amstrad.
Acorn, ICL, Ferranti, Apricot, Elliot, GEC,
Jupiter, Nascom,
Torch, Tadpole, Whitechapel. Oh, and the Raspberry Pi, of course.
Even the Commodore Amiga 1200 was assembled in Scotland.
Well IBM had several plants in the UK. Keyboards and IBM PCs were made
in Scotland. Disk Drives at Havant, Hampshire.
Julf
Dave
p.s. as for oil, IBM was I think the only company to put its core in Oil
Tanks. Not sure if they ever leaked, but some 70xx machines used this
technique to keep the temperature constant.
2:44 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 02:18 -0700, Jim Davis via cctalk wrote:
I believe the SAGE had oil cooled core. Oregon state
had old core
hooked to
the ancient nebula serial delay line / CAM machine.
The SAGE computers for the DEW line radars were in 10,000 square foot
caverns 600 feet under the Canadian shield. In the 1980s they were
replaced by Hughes minicomputers the size of four-drawer file cabinets.
7:17 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-18 16:44, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 02:18 -0700, Jim Davis via
cctalk wrote:
I saw those computers in action, while I was taking my electronic
technician training my class had the very good fortune to get a tour of
the facility, accompanied by an armed MP. When I started at IBM there
was a CE in my branch who had spent some time maintaining those
computers. One thing I recall him telling me was when they had an
intermittent, they would look for microphonic tubes by running a loop on
the computer and then running down the end of the tubes with a pencil.
Paul.
I believe the SAGE had oil cooled core. Oregon
state had old core
hooked to
the ancient nebula serial delay line / CAM machine.
The SAGE computers for the DEW
line radars were in 10,000 square foot
caverns 600 feet under the Canadian shield. In the 1980s they were
replaced by Hughes minicomputers the size of four-drawer file cabinets.
7:23 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-18 16:44, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 02:18 -0700, Jim Davis via
cctalk wrote:
It was not the SAGE site for all the DEW line, it was the SAGE site for
the 22 NORAD region which included station on both the Pine Tree line
and the DEW line I seem to recall that Alert was also attached to that
region. Growing up there was a Pine Tree Line station very close to my
home town.
Paul
I believe the SAGE had oil cooled core. Oregon
state had old core
hooked to
the ancient nebula serial delay line / CAM machine.
The SAGE computers for the DEW
line radars were in 10,000 square foot
caverns 600 feet under the Canadian shield. In the 1980s they were
replaced by Hughes minicomputers the size of four-drawer file cabinets.
11:44 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely somewhat on oil. Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely
somewhat on oil. Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
The 1401 room at the college (55+ years ago) always seemed to have a
"burnt oil" smell. But, that might have been mostly unskilled
maintenance of the EAM equipment. That smell is absent from the
[working!] 1401 at CHM
3:12 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 10:31 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
But one 1403 at CHM does have a hydraulic fluid leak.
Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely
somewhat on oil. Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
The 1401 room at the college (55+ years ago) always seemed to have a
"burnt oil" smell. But, that might have been mostly unskilled
maintenance of the EAM equipment. That smell is absent from the
[working!] 1401 at CHM
3:27 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Oct 18, 2025, at 4:12 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 10:31 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Our college 1620 had its 1311 system disk spring a hydraulic leak (the head actuator is
hydraulic in that device). The heads and system pack were cleaned with reagent grade
isopropyl alcohol from the Chemistry department, the leak fixed and the actuator refilled
and bled -- and all was well. That was in 1974 or 1975. Nice job by the local IBM CE.
paul
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Adrian Godwin via cctalk
wrote:
But one 1403 at CHM does have a hydraulic fluid leak. Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely
somewhat on oil. Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
The 1401 room at the college (55+ years ago) always seemed to have a
"burnt oil" smell. But, that might have been mostly unskilled
maintenance of the EAM equipment. That smell is absent from the
[working!] 1401 at CHM
4:25 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 16:27 -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
Our college 1620 had its 1311 system disk spring a
hydraulic leak
(the head actuator is hydraulic in that device). The heads and
system pack were cleaned with reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from
the Chemistry department, the leak fixed and the actuator refilled
and bled -- and all was well. That was in 1974 or 1975. Nice job by
the local IBM CE.
Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of
IBM Data Processing) was in an old IBM punch card factory in
Sindelfingen (near Stuttgart), before IBM sold the building and moved
(some of) the collection across the Autobahn to the IBM Tech Center in
Böblingen. They had a working 1401 with four 729s, a 1407, a 1406, and
a 1311 — and of course 1402 and 1403. The 1407 stopped working and they
couldn't get it going again because their expert, Karl Rohledder, had
passed away. I don't know whether they're keeping the system operating
in Böblingen. They also had a working 360\25, a working 403, and a
working 650. The 650 belonged to a museum in Vienna; it was returned
when HzG moved to Böblingen. I don't know whether it survived the
return journey.
CHM in Mountain View has a 1620 that worked for a while until the
cooling fan for the core stopped working. I don't know why they didn't
replace it. They didn't get a 1622 so they connected a PC that made all
the correct noises. They also got two 20-drawer file cabinets of 1620
software from a Purdue professor (Alvie Pule, IIRC) who was forced by
the fire marshall to get rid of it. And they have two 1401s and a PDP-1
that work.
John Zabolitky has a collection on the grounds of the Military College
in Neubiberg, a southeastern suburb of Munich. He has a working VAX on
which he sells time. He also has a working Cray T3E, but nobody is
paying to use it. He has a 705, but it doesn't work. And a lot of other
stuff.
7:04 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-18 14:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
Was there a 1403 attached? The 1403 used a hydraulic motor to move the
paper, and yes they did leak sometimes, plus they had a pump that oiled
the print train. Some of the early IBM disk units also had hydraulic
actuators.
Paul
Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely
somewhat on oil.
Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
The 1401 room at the college (55+ years ago) always seemed to have a
"burnt oil" smell. But, that might have been mostly unskilled
maintenance of the EAM equipment. That smell is absent from the
[working!] 1401 at CHM 
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-18 12:44, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely
somewhat on oil. Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
That's what they used the vaseline for!
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
We started the Maker-Mender Movemnt a hundred years ago!
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 14:24 -0400, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
On 2025-10-18 12:44, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
They had a different use for it in the Royal Navy.
Surely those spinning mechanisms in Colossus rely
somewhat on oil.
Though I
haven't noticed it spraying a skidmark across the walls.
That's what they used the vaseline for!
4:53 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 7:27 AM Johan Helsingius via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 18/10/2025 02:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
ICT, Grundy (Newbrain computer), Newbury (video terminals at least),
HH Electronics (Tiger computer), Tangerine, Dragon data, Research
Machines, Casu, and dozens more...
-tony
All that I can think of right now are Sinclair
and Amstrad.
Acorn, ICL, Ferranti, Apricot, Elliot, GEC, Jupiter, Nascom,
Torch, Tadpole, Whitechapel. Oh, and the Raspberry Pi, of course.
17 Oct
17 Oct
7:29 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
The British are great at designing things, but rubbish at actually making them. So they
have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do the British actually make anything
anymore?
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 17, 2025, at 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Martin Bishop wrote:
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems
to be there
[BeerMode raambling]
British beer is excellent, and always has been. (and, It doesn't need to be cooled
down to the edge of freezing)
My father used to say, "A pint is a pound, the wrold around"; if that ever was
true of British beer, it wouldn't be now, and even as a unit of measure, a pint is
ambiguous.
Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British cars and motorcycles, and pretty
much not an issue with anything else.
Many inventions come from UK. Including the parents/grandparents of the USA inventors.
Bletchley Park was a major undertaking.
Without Alan Turing, where would we be?
Current AI, despite being STUPID and hallucinating, could probably pass any of the
earlier Turing tests.
(at one point, cchatGPT was asked for the last digit of PI;
a SERIOUS flaw in current AI design is to never let it answer, "I Don't
Know"! Also, there have been a LOT of legal cases where AI drew up briefs, and
included precedents that didn't exist!)
Sinclair did some brilliant and clever stuff.
There is nothing wrong with British computers.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:43 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Wayne S wrote:
The British are great at designing things, but rubbish
at actually
making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do
the British actually make anything anymore?
For that matter, does USA still make anything anymore?
What percentage of computers used in USA are made in USA?
What percentage for major parts, such as disk drives, LCD screens, etc.?
What percentage of minor parts and non bespoke hardware?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:09 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-17 6:43 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Wayne S wrote:
The USA had cheap shipping from Japan and Now China.
The UK is still the long way around.The UK
production(iron,steel,ships..) lost to the USA
Since the 1890's.
The British are great at designing things, but
rubbish at actually
making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do
the British actually make anything anymore?
For that matter, does USA still make anything anymore?
What percentage of computers used in USA are made in USA?
What percentage for major parts, such as disk drives, LCD screens, etc.?
What percentage of minor parts and non bespoke hardware?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Ben.
8:21 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Again, Britain had the best car styling too. XKE, DB4 etc…
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 17, 2025, at 18:18, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 6:43 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
The USA had cheap shipping from Japan and Now China.
The UK is still the long way around.The UK production(iron,steel,ships..) lost to the USA
Since the 1890's.
On Sat,
18 Oct 2025, Wayne S wrote:
The British are great at designing things, but rubbish at actually making them. So they
have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do the British actually make anything
anymore?
For that matter, does USA still make anything anymore?
What percentage of computers used in USA are made in USA?
What percentage for major parts, such as disk drives, LCD screens, etc.?
What percentage of minor parts and non bespoke hardware?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Ben.
8:03 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-17 6:29 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
The British are great at designing things, but rubbish
at actually making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do the
British actually make anything anymore?
Other than Cheddar cheese,and Dr Who DVD's, no.
Sent from my iPhone
Ben.
8:17 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
British TV is the best. Good stories, good acting, great scripts. Even the opening credits
are great. I’ve been watching btv on Acorn tv, pbs, and recently, Britbox.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 17, 2025, at 18:13, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 6:29 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
The British are great at designing things, but
rubbish at actually making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do
the British actually make anything anymore?
Other than Cheddar cheese,and Dr Who DVD's, no.
> Sent from my iPhone
> Ben.
18 Oct
18 Oct
1:35 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 01:17 +0000, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
British TV is the best. Good stories, good acting,
great scripts.
Even the opening credits are great. I’ve been watching btv on Acorn
tv, pbs, and recently, Britbox.
Except for the part about the music being louder than the dialogue.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 17, 2025, at 18:13, ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> On 2025-10-17 6:29 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
> > The British are great at designing things, but rubbish at
> > actually making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if
> > they can be. Do the British actually make anything anymore?
>
> Other than Cheddar cheese,and Dr Who DVD's, no.
>
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > Ben.
19 Oct
19 Oct
4:55 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/17/25 20:17, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
British TV is the best. Good stories, good acting,
great scripts. Even the opening credits are great. I’ve been watching btv on Acorn tv,
pbs, and recently, Britbox.
It's not permitted in the US anymore but Russian TV is British
television without the Prozak. It's fantastic.
Doc
7:19 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Jesus Doc, Did you have a stroke in the funny bits?
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 4:12 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/17/25 20:17, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
It's not permitted in the US anymore but Russian TV is British
television without the Prozak. It's fantastic.
Doc
British TV is the best. Good stories, good
acting, great scripts. Even
the opening credits are great. I’ve been watching btv on Acorn tv, pbs, and
recently, Britbox.
20 Oct
20 Oct
5:54 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/19/25 19:19, Jim Davis via cctalk wrote:
Jesus Doc, Did you have a stroke in the funny bits?
TL;DR: I like British TV better than the pablum we make in the US, but
I get tired of it quickly.
I may not have been clear, but with some fabulous exceptions, British TV
tends to be so... paced, maybe? that it ends up feeling wrapped in
cotton. Much like barely-treated depression; hence the Prozac description.
I'm mostly deaf these days, so everything I watch is subtitled. The
silver lining is that getting used to Closed Captions opened up
worldwide TV - it no longer matters what the original language is as
long as it's got titles. So a few years ago I started a Cop Shows
'Round The World tour.
Russian (I include the old USSR satellites) TV is a pure, unpadded
descent into a hopeless trudge through hell. Any series that involves
madness - "Metod" if you can find it - is a whole other level of crazy.
I love it.
Doc
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 4:12 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk <
>
> It's not permitted in the US anymore but Russian TV is British
> television without the Prozak. It's fantastic.
>
>
> Doc
>
>
6:30 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
TL;DR: I like British TV better than the pablum we
make in the US, but I get
tired of it quickly.
I may not have been clear, but with some fabulous exceptions, British TV
tends to be so... paced, maybe? that it ends up feeling wrapped in cotton.
Much like barely-treated depression; hence the Prozac description.
I'm mostly deaf these days, so everything I watch is subtitled. The silver
lining is that getting used to Closed Captions opened up worldwide TV - it no
longer matters what the original language is as long as it's got titles. So
a few years ago I started a Cop Shows 'Round The World tour.
I also find that of the stuff that I like, a disproportionate amount is
British.
When my mother was losing her sight, she liked to watch Britcoms.
So, I got complete sets of DVDs of
As Time Goes By,
Black Adder,
Doc Martin,
Father Ted,
Fawly Towers,
Keeping Up Appearances,
One foot in the grave,
Waiting for God,
etc.,
in addition to my own
Blake's 7,
Dirk Gently,
Doctor Who (there are still some episodes that have never been found)
Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy,
Red Dwarf,
Red Green (Canadian, NOT British)
Good Omens,
Secret Life Of Machines,
Torchwood,
the few movies made of Terry Pratchett's writings,
etc.
Like you, I have gone from HoH to functionally deaf, so I am completely
reliant on captiona/subtitles.
With enormous numbers of repetitions, and the kind help of a wonderful
friend, we MADE captions (,srt) for Hyperland (1992 (well before WWW), BBC
doc about what the internet would become, with Ted Nelson, Douglas Adams,
and Tom Baker)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Russian (I include the old USSR satellites) TV is a pure, unpadded descent
into a hopeless trudge through hell. Any series that involves madness -
"Metod" if you can find it - is a whole other level of crazy.
I love it.
7:30 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/20/25 18:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I also find that of the stuff that I like, a disproportionate amount is
British.
When my mother was losing her sight, she liked to watch Britcoms.
So, I got complete sets of DVDs of
<snip>
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
You just listed most of my "fabulous exceptions". Good Omens is one of
my favorite series, ever.
Doc
6:40 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Mon, 2025-10-20 at 17:54 -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
Russian (I include the old USSR satellites) TV is a
pure, unpadded
descent into a hopeless trudge through hell.
From IMDB quotes about a Brokenwood series episode in which an actor is
killed onstage during a local theater production:
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: What was the performance?
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet.
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: [laughs] The Russian play.
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet was from Russia?
* Gina Kadinsky [1]:
No, but he is very Russian. He worries too much, complains about
everything, takes too long to make up his mind, and when he finally
does, it all ends badly anyway. Such is life.
My Russian colleague said that Russian men can do three things
indefinitely:
* Watch water run
* Watch fire burn
* Watch other men work
[1] Gina Kadinsky https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1375380/?ref_=ttqu_qu
[2] Mike Shepherd https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0713761/?ref_=ttqu_qu
6:58 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Fred, don’t forget “BallyKissAngel”
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 20, 2025, at 16:48, Van Snyder via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mon, 2025-10-20 at 17:54 -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
Russian (I include the old USSR satellites) TV is
a pure, unpadded
descent into a hopeless trudge through hell.
From IMDB quotes about a Brokenwood series episode in which an actor is
killed onstage during a local theater production:
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: What was the performance?
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet.
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: [laughs] The Russian play.
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet was from Russia?
* Gina Kadinsky [1]:
No, but he is very Russian. He worries too much, complains about
everything, takes too long to make up his mind, and when he finally
does, it all ends badly anyway. Such is life.
My Russian colleague said that Russian men can do three things
indefinitely:
* Watch water run
* Watch fire burn
* Watch other men work
[1] Gina Kadinsky https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1375380/?ref_=ttqu_qu
[2] Mike Shepherd https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0713761/?ref_=ttqu_qu
7:49 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/20/25 18:40, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Mon, 2025-10-20 at 17:54 -0500, Doc Shipley via
cctalk wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tw3g88JtWA
Doc
Russian (I include the old USSR satellites) TV is
a pure, unpadded
descent into a hopeless trudge through hell.
From IMDB quotes about a Brokenwood series episode in which an actor is
killed onstage during a local theater production:
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: What was the performance?
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet.
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: [laughs] The Russian play.
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet was from Russia?
* Gina Kadinsky [1]:
No, but he is very Russian. He worries too much, complains about
everything, takes too long to make up his mind, and when he finally
does, it all ends badly anyway. Such is life.
11:13 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
I will rest in solace the day Don Knuth passes, I don't belive in invisible
space ghosts,
But, he is my computer god. I fixed more unfixed problens with his help.
100X speed. .
On Mon, Oct 20, 2025 at 5:57 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/20/25 18:40, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Mon, 2025-10-20 at 17:54 -0500, Doc Shipley
via cctalk wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tw3g88JtWA
Doc
Russian (I include the old USSR satellites) TV is
a pure, unpadded
descent into a hopeless trudge through hell.
From IMDB quotes about a Brokenwood series episode in which an actor is
killed onstage during a local theater production:
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: What was the performance?
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet.
* Gina Kadinsky [1]: [laughs] The Russian play.
* Mike Shepherd [2]: Hamlet was from Russia?
* Gina Kadinsky [1]:
No, but he is very Russian. He worries too much, complains about
everything, takes too long to make up his mind, and when he finally
does, it all ends badly anyway. Such is life.
19 Oct
19 Oct
7:39 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sun, 2025-10-19 at 16:55 -0500, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
On 10/17/25 20:17, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
When was this prohibited? I had a Russian colleague who watched it in
Altadena, CA. I knew he was really really really Russian when he moved
back to Moscow in February (!) of 2023 (maybe his wife insisted). Then,
sadly, in May he had a stroke and died. Maybe he would have survived in
Pasadena.
British TV is the best. Good stories, good
acting, great scripts.
Even the opening credits are great. I’ve been watching btv on Acorn
tv, pbs, and recently, Britbox.
It's not permitted in the US anymore but Russian TV is British
television without the Prozak. It's fantastic.
20 Oct
20 Oct
5:37 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/19/25 19:39, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 2025-10-19 at 16:55 -0500, Doc Shipley via
cctalk wrote:
I doubt that it's expressly prohibited, but all the USian streaming
services and a lot of the European ones just stopped streaming Russian
content since the Ukraine War started. I'd be willing to bet your
colleague was watching via satellite.
Doc
On 10/17/25 20:17, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
When was this prohibited? I had a Russian colleague who watched it in
Altadena, CA. I knew he was really really really Russian when he moved
back to Moscow in February (!) of 2023 (maybe his wife insisted). Then,
sadly, in May he had a stroke and died. Maybe he would have survived in
Pasadena. British TV is the best. Good stories, good
acting, great scripts.
Even the opening credits are great. I’ve been watching btv on Acorn
tv, pbs, and recently, Britbox.
It's not permitted in the US anymore but Russian TV is British
television without the Prozak. It's fantastic. 
18 Oct
18 Oct
6:43 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
ben via cctalk [2025-10-18 03:03:41]:
On 2025-10-17 6:29 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Good whisky, real ale. Although much of the good whisky come from areas
that really should be Norwegian (Orkney, the Hebrides).
--
Hilsen Harald
The British are great at designing things, but
rubbish at actually making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if they can be. Do
the British actually make anything anymore?
Other than Cheddar cheese,and Dr Who DVD's, no.
8:16 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Ah, but they are not - writes a Scotsman - you Vikings lost them
More to the point I would say *some* of the good whisky comes from Orkney (HP & Scapa)
and the Hebrides (really only Talisker and some Jhonny come latelys)
Islay is only in the Hebrides on questionable maps, they stopped at Mull when I was a
skuleboy, and Islay has many excellent distileries - if you care for peaty malt.
Cambelltown, at the foot of the Kintyre peninsula, equally merits mention. And then
there are all the East Coast distileries Glen Morangie, Glenlivett and all its chums
clustered around the Spey - quite different from the West Coast malts.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Harald Arnesen via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 18 October 2025 11:43
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Harald Arnesen <lists(a)skogtun.org>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
<<snip>>
Good whisky, real ale. Although much of the good whisky come from areas that really should
be Norwegian (Orkney, the Hebrides).
--
Hilsen Harald
2:12 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Martin Bishop via cctalk [2025-10-18 15:16:00]:
Islay is only in the Hebrides on questionable maps,
they stopped at Mull when I was a skuleboy, and Islay has many excellent distileries - if
you care for peaty malt. Cambelltown, at the foot of the Kintyre peninsula, equally
merits mention. And then there are all the East Coast distileries Glen Morangie,
Glenlivett and all its chums clustered around the Spey - quite different from the West
Coast malts.
I assume you know more about Islay than I do. I have visited the island
twice.
Many of my favourites come from that island - Laphroaig, Lagavulin,
Ardbeg, I have walked to all three from Port Ellen.
As for Campbelltown, Springbank is also one of my all-time favourites.
--
Hilsen Harald the Viking
3:56 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Only been to Islay once (to date) and that was a pierhead jump to babysit a tracking
range, so no distillery visits.
The Caol Ila is no bad as well, a pleasant vista as you pass up the Sound of Islay;
although the rest of the West Coast is hard to fault from seaward.
My pick from Springbank is the (peaty) Longrow.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Harald Arnesen via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 18 October 2025 19:12
To: Martin Bishop via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Harald Arnesen <lists(a)skogtun.org>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Martin Bishop via cctalk [2025-10-18 15:16:00]:
Islay is only in the Hebrides on questionable maps,
they stopped at Mull when I was a skuleboy, and Islay has many excellent distileries - if
you care for peaty malt. Cambelltown, at the foot of the Kintyre peninsula, equally
merits mention. And then there are all the East Coast distileries Glen Morangie,
Glenlivett and all its chums clustered around the Spey - quite different from the West
Coast malts.
I assume you know more about Islay than I do. I have visited the island twice.
Many of my favourites come from that island - Laphroaig, Lagavulin, Ardbeg, I have walked
to all three from Port Ellen.
As for Campbelltown, Springbank is also one of my all-time favourites.
--
Hilsen Harald the Viking
2:52 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 13:16 +0000, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
Islay is only in the Hebrides on questionable maps,
they stopped at
Mull when I was a skuleboy, and Islay has many excellent distileries
- if you care for peaty malt. Cambelltown, at the foot of the
Kintyre peninsula, equally merits mention. And then there are all
the East Coast distileries Glen Morangie, Glenlivett and all its
chums clustered around the Spey - quite different from the West Coast
malts.
I enjoy Leapfrog but it's expensive so I settle for MacAllan. One of my
friends gave me a bottle of MacAllan "thirties" — a reprise from the
1930s when there was a coal strike so they dried their malt with peat
fires. Delicious. They only made it for one year.
My late dear Russian friend Roman Glazman, a brilliant oceanographer
and expert on turbulence, loved Scotch whiskey and didn't enjoy vodka.
His dream vacation was a Scottish distillery tour. Then he developed
colon cancer and died before he got to Scotland.
3:35 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
My late dear Russian friend Roman Glazman, a brilliant
oceanographer
and expert on turbulence, loved Scotch whiskey and didn't enjoy vodka.
His dream vacation was a Scottish distillery tour. Then he developed
colon cancer and died before he got to Scotland.
Scotch whiskey?
A Scottish friend of mine insisted that
to Scots it was spelled "Whisky",
but maybe "Whiskey" in Ireland
4:06 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Interestingly the dependably low price single malt in the UK is Laphroig, I guess it does
not suit the mass market pallete : VG*
However, one caveat is to beware of the "bargain" single malts with no age
statement - cheap but indifferent, doubtless young whisky and I could believe somewhat
feinty
The pricing is mostly gouging and what the market will bear : these days Lagavullin is
always a fancy price in the UK
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Van Snyder via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 18 October 2025 19:53
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Van Snyder <van.snyder(a)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 13:16 +0000, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
Islay is only in the Hebrides on questionable maps,
they stopped at
Mull when I was a skuleboy, and Islay has many excellent distileries
- if you care for peaty malt. Cambelltown, at the foot of the Kintyre
peninsula, equally merits mention. And then there are all the East
Coast distileries Glen Morangie, Glenlivett and all its chums
clustered around the Spey - quite different from the West Coast malts.
I enjoy Leapfrog but it's expensive so I settle for MacAllan. One of my friends gave
me a bottle of MacAllan "thirties" — a reprise from the 1930s when there was a
coal strike so they dried their malt with peat fires. Delicious. They only made it for one
year.
My late dear Russian friend Roman Glazman, a brilliant oceanographer and expert on
turbulence, loved Scotch whiskey and didn't enjoy vodka.
His dream vacation was a Scottish distillery tour. Then he developed colon cancer and died
before he got to Scotland.
2:38 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 13:43 +0200, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote:
ben via cctalk [2025-10-18 03:03:41]:
All of Britain and Ireland and Normandy is Viking. The battles in 1066
were between three Viking kings fighting over England. Vikings had
better technology, especially Klinker-built longboats. And some good
ideas for society, such as trial by jury. In the twelfth century, the
Britons laughed at those crazy Danes who combed their hair and took a
bath every Saturday.
On 2025-10-17 6:29 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk
wrote:
Good whisky, real ale. Although much of the good whisky come from
areas
that really should be Norwegian (Orkney, the Hebrides).
The British are great at designing things, but
rubbish at
actually making them. So they have to be made somewhere else if
they can be. Do the British actually make anything anymore?
Other than Cheddar cheese,and Dr Who DVD's, no.
4:24 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
We are a bit short on steel mills, but the headline closure a year ago was the Port Talbot
blast furnaces - reputedly to be replaced by electric arc furnaces
The Scunthorpe blast furnaces are now on the same trajectory, but again both of those are
primary iron production capabilities.
The Port Talbot steel mill continues to roll product from imported slab. The Scunthorpe
mill rolls rail (track) and other sections. The Sheffield area continues to manufacture
specialist steels and big forgings. Also, the UK has a number of neither open nor shut
plate mills. And, this is a very partial list.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Van Snyder via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 18 October 2025 20:35
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Van Snyder <van.snyder(a)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 00:29 +0000, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Do the British actually make anything anymore?
They closed the last steel mill in Wales recently. Are there any steel mills remaining
anywhere in UK?
5:14 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 21:24 +0000, Martin Bishop wrote:
the headline closure a year ago was the Port Talbot
blast furnaces -
reputedly to be replaced by electric arc furnaces
Good luck keeping them going with solar and wind. When the electricity
stops and the mill freezes, about all you can do is scrap it and build
a new one.
And when the electricity is occasionally working, its price is three
times what they pay in France or Finland.
5:30 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Politics is the only explanation I can offer for the desire to make steel and high energy
(electricity) costs – no coherent strategy for UK PLC.
Although high energy costs does explain the UK’s paucity of primary steel production
From: Van Snyder [mailto:van.snyder@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: 18 October 2025 22:15
To: Martin Bishop <mjd.bishop(a)emeritus-solutions.com>om>; General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 21:24 +0000, Martin Bishop wrote:
the headline closure a year ago was the Port Talbot blast furnaces - reputedly to be
replaced by electric arc furnaces
Good luck keeping them going with solar and wind. When the electricity stops and the mill
freezes, about all you can do is scrap it and build a new one.
And when the electricity is occasionally working, its price is three times what they pay
in France or Finland.
5:41 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Us locals have are own green power infection.
The are in final approval to install fours quare miles of solar down the
road.
Luckly, I don't have to look at it. Strangely, My son designed its
infrastructure.
Jim
FYI: Goldendale Wa. :Carriger Solar is a proposed solar photovoltaic (PV)
electric generating facility
with a capacity of 160 megawatts (MW) of alternating current (AC) solar
.
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 3:22 PM Van Snyder via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 21:24 +0000, Martin Bishop
wrote:
the headline closure a year ago was the Port
Talbot blast furnaces -
reputedly to be replaced by electric arc furnaces
Good luck keeping them going with solar and wind. When the electricity
stops and the mill freezes, about all you can do is scrap it and build
a new one.
And when the electricity is occasionally working, its price is three
times what they pay in France or Finland.
17 Oct
17 Oct
7:33 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
https://youtu.be/O_-1WxTBNHI
On Oct 17, 2025, at 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Martin Bishop wrote:
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems to be there
[BeerMode raambling]
British beer is excellent, and always has been. (and, It doesn't need to be cooled
down to the edge of freezing)
My father used to say, "A pint is a pound, the wrold around"; if that ever was
true of British beer, it wouldn't be now, and even as a unit of measure, a pint is
ambiguous.
Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British cars and motorcycles, and pretty
much not an issue with anything else.
Many inventions come from UK. Including the parents/grandparents of the USA inventors.
Bletchley Park was a major undertaking.
Without Alan Turing, where would we be?
Current AI, despite being STUPID and hallucinating, could probably pass any of the earlier
Turing tests.
(at one point, cchatGPT was asked for the last digit of PI;
a SERIOUS flaw in current AI design is to never let it answer, "I Don't
Know"! Also, there have been a LOT of legal cases where AI drew up briefs, and
included precedents that didn't exist!)
Sinclair did some brilliant and clever stuff.
There is nothing wrong with British computers.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
18 Oct
18 Oct
4:47 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 8:02 AM bluewater emailtoilet.com via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British
cars and motorcycles, and pretty much not an issue with anything else.
I've never learnt to drive, but I did all the servicing and repairs on
my late father's cars for over 40 years. My father would typically
keep a car for 10 years or more. Some of the cars were British with
Lucas electricals, others came from other European countries with
electrical parts from all over the world,
In that time I had 2 alternators fail (both regulator assembly
problems), One was Lucas, the other Mitsubishi, One starter motor
failed (worn brushes), I forget who made it but not Lucas. Obviously,
bulbs, etc failed from time to time.
But I do not regard Lucas as significantly less reliable than other
manufacturers.
To get this sort-of on-topic Lucas Industries (same company) owned
Nascom at one point I think.
-tony
5:56 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 18/10/2025 10:47, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 8:02 AM bluewater
emailtoilet.com via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British cars and motorcycles, and
pretty much not an issue with anything else.
I don't recall cars having oil leak problems, but many motorcycles did,
because of the design. Normally the crankcase is split vertically and
and inaccuracies results in a drip.
Harley Davidsons also have oil leak issues. Japanese designs tend to
have the case split horizontally so the bottom half is solid.
British engines for both cars and motorcycles tended to be narrow bore,
long stroke design because the tax was based on he "RAC rating"
https://www.designchambers.com/wolfhound/wolfhoundRACHP.htm
When Japanese short stroke engines appeared the revolutionised
motorcycling in the UK
I've never learnt to drive, but I did all the
servicing and repairs on
my late father's cars for over 40 years. My father would typically
keep a car for 10 years or more. Some of the cars were British with
Lucas electricals, others came from other European countries with
electrical parts from all over the world,
In that time I had 2 alternators fail (both regulator assembly
problems), One was Lucas, the other Mitsubishi, One starter motor
failed (worn brushes), I forget who made it but not Lucas. Obviously,
bulbs, etc failed from time to time.
But I do not regard Lucas as significantly less reliable than other
manufacturers.
Their (mechanical) fuel injection systems as fitted to the UK Triumph
TR5 and TR6 were really bad.
When I first came to work in Manchester I lived in a shared house. The
owner had a TR6 with Lucas fuel injection.
He was always having it serviced, but it still seemed to take ages to
get it running on a morning.
To get this sort-of on-topic Lucas Industries (same company) owned
Nascom at one point I think.
I didn't know that!
-tony
6:29 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 12:02 PM David Wade via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Never worked on it, although I have read the 'real' manual for it, the
one that covers dismantling and rebuilding the metering distributor.
It should work properly. There is an 'overfuel' lever on the metering
distributor which pulls back the shuttle stop and gives a rich mixture
for cold starting -- was all that all set up and working correctly?
Was the fuel pump drawing the right current (bad connections causing
voltage drop?). Fuel pressure correct at the input to the metering
distributor? And before touching the fuel injection system, you should
check the ignition, valve clearances, compression, etc.
BUT.. several times I've been told that $system is
unreliable/difficult to service/never works properly/... Three
examples I can instantly think of are : Citroen hydropneumatic
suspension; The Prestor Reflex shutter in the Pentina camera (which I
will admit has quality-control issues); Philips V2000 video recorders.
Without exception I've had no problems with them. The problems seem to
stem from the fact that they are all very different from their
competitors. If you attack any of them based on a knowledge of so-say
similar systems (spring/damper car suspension; Compur camera shutter;
VHS video recorders) you will have no end of problems. If you sit down
with the service manuals, really understand how they work, and then
repair them 'properly' you wll have no problems at all.
One of my father's secrets to not having breakdowns in his cars was to
NEVER allow a mechanic within 50 feet of the vehicle! We both
regard(ed) such people as being one level below computer Field
Service. And from conversations with current-day ones, alas my views
have not changed. I've yet to meet one who can logically diagnose a
fault -- you know, measuring things before changing anything.
-tony
But I do not
regard Lucas as significantly less reliable than other
manufacturers.
Their (mechanical) fuel injection systems as fitted to the UK Triumph
TR5 and TR6 were really bad.
When I first came to work in Manchester I lived in a shared house. The
owner had a TR6 with Lucas fuel injection.
He was always having it serviced, but it still seemed to take ages to
get it running on a morning.
7:42 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Shotgum is the mode of desperation, replace the PS, fiddle with the
wireing, poke it with the wet end of a cigar.
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 4:38 AM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 12:02 PM David Wade via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Never worked on it, although I have read the 'real' manual for it, the
one that covers dismantling and rebuilding the metering distributor.
It should work properly. There is an 'overfuel' lever on the metering
distributor which pulls back the shuttle stop and gives a rich mixture
for cold starting -- was all that all set up and working correctly?
Was the fuel pump drawing the right current (bad connections causing
voltage drop?). Fuel pressure correct at the input to the metering
distributor? And before touching the fuel injection system, you should
check the ignition, valve clearances, compression, etc.
BUT.. several times I've been told that $system is
unreliable/difficult to service/never works properly/... Three
examples I can instantly think of are : Citroen hydropneumatic
suspension; The Prestor Reflex shutter in the Pentina camera (which I
will admit has quality-control issues); Philips V2000 video recorders.
Without exception I've had no problems with them. The problems seem to
stem from the fact that they are all very different from their
competitors. If you attack any of them based on a knowledge of so-say
similar systems (spring/damper car suspension; Compur camera shutter;
VHS video recorders) you will have no end of problems. If you sit down
with the service manuals, really understand how they work, and then
repair them 'properly' you wll have no problems at all.
One of my father's secrets to not having breakdowns in his cars was to
NEVER allow a mechanic within 50 feet of the vehicle! We both
regard(ed) such people as being one level below computer Field
Service. And from conversations with current-day ones, alas my views
have not changed. I've yet to meet one who can logically diagnose a
fault -- you know, measuring things before changing anything.
-tony
But I do
not regard Lucas as significantly less reliable than other
manufacturers.
Their (mechanical) fuel injection systems as fitted to the UK Triumph
TR5 and TR6 were really bad.
When I first came to work in Manchester I lived in a shared house. The
owner had a TR6 with Lucas fuel injection.
He was always having it serviced, but it still seemed to take ages to
get it running on a morning.
9:37 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Famed stock-car racer Smokey Yunick once observed that 90% of carburetor
problems are in the ignition.
On 10/18/25 06:29, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 12:02 PM David Wade via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Never worked on it, although I have read the
'real' manual for it, the
one that covers dismantling and rebuilding the metering distributor.
It should work properly. There is an 'overfuel' lever on the metering
distributor which pulls back the shuttle stop and gives a rich mixture
for cold starting -- was all that all set up and working correctly?
Was the fuel pump drawing the right current (bad connections causing
voltage drop?). Fuel pressure correct at the input to the metering
distributor? And before touching the fuel injection system, you should
check the ignition, valve clearances, compression, etc.
BUT.. several times I've been told that $system is
unreliable/difficult to service/never works properly/... Three
examples I can instantly think of are : Citroen hydropneumatic
suspension; The Prestor Reflex shutter in the Pentina camera (which I
will admit has quality-control issues); Philips V2000 video recorders.
Without exception I've had no problems with them. The problems seem to
stem from the fact that they are all very different from their
competitors. If you attack any of them based on a knowledge of so-say
similar systems (spring/damper car suspension; Compur camera shutter;
VHS video recorders) you will have no end of problems. If you sit down
with the service manuals, really understand how they work, and then
repair them 'properly' you wll have no problems at all.
One of my father's secrets to not having breakdowns in his cars was to
NEVER allow a mechanic within 50 feet of the vehicle! We both
regard(ed) such people as being one level below computer Field
Service. And from conversations with current-day ones, alas my views
have not changed. I've yet to meet one who can logically diagnose a
fault -- you know, measuring things before changing anything.
-tony
But I do
not regard Lucas as significantly less reliable than other
manufacturers.
Their (mechanical) fuel injection systems as fitted to the UK
Triumph
TR5 and TR6 were really bad.
When I first came to work in Manchester I lived in a shared house. The
owner had a TR6 with Lucas fuel injection.
He was always having it serviced, but it still seemed to take ages to
get it running on a morning.
3:11 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 14:37 +0000, Charles Morris via cctalk wrote:
Famed stock-car racer Smokey Yunick once observed that
90% of
carburetor
problems are in the ignition.
And Yogi Berra said "I didn't say half the things I said."
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
Then there's the shortest book ever written: "One Thousand Years of
German Humor."
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 12:29 +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
Citroen hydropneumatic suspension
My neighbor had a Citroen. The reservoir for the radiator was directly
above the distributor. If the radiator cap leaked even a tiny bit, when
it got hot it dripped onto the distributor, shutting down the engine. I
guess that was their overtemperature protection system. And every wire
in the car went directly to the rat's nest on top of the battery.
In European heaven the French are the cooks, the English are the
police, the Germans are the engineers, the Italians are the lovers, and
the Swiss are the bankers.
In European hell the French are the engineers, the English are the
cooks, the Germans are the police, the Italians are the bankers, and
the Swiss are the liovers.
One of my father's secrets to not having
breakdowns in his cars was
to
NEVER allow a mechanic within 50 feet of the vehicle! We both
regard(ed) such people as being one level below computer Field
Service.
The guy who serviced my Mercedes 190D in the early 1970s had been
trained at the factory in Stuttgart. Then he retired.
2:53 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-18 1:34 p.m., Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
In European hell the French are the engineers, the
English are the
cooks, the Germans are the police, the Italians are the bankers, and
the Swiss are the liovers.
The Eiffel tower and Fish n Chips and Statue of Liberty disprove that
theory.
Ben.
3:30 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 13:53 -0600, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 2025-10-18 1:34 p.m., Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
When I was preparing for my first meeting in Oxford, a colleague who
had worked at the UK Met Office in Redding told me "Eat in pubs; the
food is much better than in hotels or restaurants." He was right. I
enjoy Fish 'n Chips with mooshy peas and vinegar, and Shepherd's Pie …
and of course good English Ale served at the proper cellar temperature
of 54°F.
…. Ferdinand de Lesseps's failure to build a Panama canal, and the
Citroen (and Peugeot), and the Maginot line. On the other side of the
ledger are Louis Pasteur, dozens of outstanding 18th and 19th century
French mathematicians (Laplace, Legendre, Lagrange — who was born
Italian, Poisson, Fermat, Poincaré…), the Millau Viaduct, French
nuclear power reactors, and spent fuel processing.
In European hell the French are the engineers,
the English are the
cooks, the Germans are the police, the Italians are the bankers,
and
the Swiss are the liovers.
The Eiffel tower and Fish n Chips and Statue of Liberty disprove
that
theory.
Ben.
11:12 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
> I don't recall cars having oil leak problems
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
"If your Land Rover doesn't leak oil, it
means your engine
has run out of oil".
or
"There are TWO times that an Engish car (or many years of Harleys) does
not leak oil: before it is put in at the factory, and after it has all
leaked out."
12:28 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
They have a project of rcovering data from floppies, that was written up
by BBC
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20251009-rescuing-knowledge-trapped-on-o…
The article is a pleasant read, but has technical inaccuracies.
For example, they say that a 3 inch drive (as compared to 3.5" drive) has
"a different voltage system". (+5V and +12V doesn't seem to be a
"different voltage system")) They "had to source a specific disk drive
made by Amstrad, build new connectors and jerry-rig a power cable to
access the disks." The most common 3" drive in USA is the one that was
marketed by Amdek. They used to have ads for two drive systems for Apple
and Coco. The bare drives of those have the exact same power and data
cabling as 5.25" drive. (34 pin card edge, and a power plug that we
[erroneously?] refer to as Amphenol)
Or, maybe they just mean that they have drives with power supplies that
expect 110VAC 60Hz?
I hope that they realize that 3" drives were available both as double
sided and as "flippy", and that neither of those can access the secnd side
of the other. (Some minor machining to let the Double sided also flip,
would let the DS do both)
"I bought my eight-inch drive off eBay," says Chris Knowles, a participant
in the Future Nostalgia project. "It was a miracle that it worked."
They mention mould, "delicately teasing mould off the flimsy surface of
the magnetic disks to avoid scratching them",
but not loss of coating on the cookie, nor about baking. No mention of
need to clean heads more than usual.
They talk about need to find people with knowledge of the systems, to be
able to make sense of them, but no mention of commercial disk format
conversion software, such as 22Disk (We miss you, Chuck), XenoCopy,
Uniform, etc.
No mention of flux transition systems to get raw track images when they
don't know the disk format.
Although, to be fair, a lot of those problems are file structure (every
word processing program had its own unique file structure), after the file
itself has been accessed.
They say, while on the topic of PC and Mac disks that it is very hard to
date the materials. "It's quite difficult to date floppy disks as people
used systems for quite a while,"
Did they not notice the "DATE" field in the file primary directory entry?
No mention of data recovery from corrupted or damaged disks.
On 9 October 2025, she hosted a floppy disk workshop at Cambridge
University Library where members of the public could bring old disks they
had at home to see what contents are locked inside.
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/research-institute/events/floppy-disks-workshop
They explicitly reject "ZIP disks, JAZ drives, SuperDisks, or other
non-floppy portable media"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:20 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
I should start my own computer archive. I have nore for the Tek 8002a.
Meta compilers, compilers, assemblers, debug and ICE.
and it's been setting in the bedroom for 45 years. Mice pissed on the
backplane, but I patched it. Hasn't seen power since.
Don't even mention the Tek 65XX shitstorm and the firesale.
I offered my boss a Tek GPU, gold and shiny, As a wall hanger
He declined, with a look of disgust. 32016/32032 was a bitter pill.
Jim
On Sat, Oct 18, 2025 at 11:22 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
They have a project of rcovering data from floppies,
that was written up
by BBC
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20251009-rescuing-knowledge-trapped-on-o…
The article is a pleasant read, but has technical inaccuracies.
For example, they say that a 3 inch drive (as compared to 3.5" drive) has
"a different voltage system". (+5V and +12V doesn't seem to be a
"different voltage system")) They "had to source a specific disk drive
made by Amstrad, build new connectors and jerry-rig a power cable to
access the disks." The most common 3" drive in USA is the one that was
marketed by Amdek. They used to have ads for two drive systems for Apple
and Coco. The bare drives of those have the exact same power and data
cabling as 5.25" drive. (34 pin card edge, and a power plug that we
[erroneously?] refer to as Amphenol)
Or, maybe they just mean that they have drives with power supplies that
expect 110VAC 60Hz?
I hope that they realize that 3" drives were available both as double
sided and as "flippy", and that neither of those can access the secnd side
of the other. (Some minor machining to let the Double sided also flip,
would let the DS do both)
"I bought my eight-inch drive off eBay," says Chris Knowles, a participant
in the Future Nostalgia project. "It was a miracle that it worked."
They mention mould, "delicately teasing mould off the flimsy surface of
the magnetic disks to avoid scratching them",
but not loss of coating on the cookie, nor about baking. No mention of
need to clean heads more than usual.
They talk about need to find people with knowledge of the systems, to be
able to make sense of them, but no mention of commercial disk format
conversion software, such as 22Disk (We miss you, Chuck), XenoCopy,
Uniform, etc.
No mention of flux transition systems to get raw track images when they
don't know the disk format.
Although, to be fair, a lot of those problems are file structure (every
word processing program had its own unique file structure), after the file
itself has been accessed.
They say, while on the topic of PC and Mac disks that it is very hard to
date the materials. "It's quite difficult to date floppy disks as people
used systems for quite a while,"
Did they not notice the "DATE" field in the file primary directory entry?
No mention of data recovery from corrupted or damaged disks.
On 9 October 2025, she hosted a floppy disk workshop at Cambridge
University Library where members of the public could bring old disks they
had at home to see what contents are locked inside.
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/research-institute/events/floppy-disks-workshop
They explicitly reject "ZIP disks, JAZ drives, SuperDisks, or other
non-floppy portable media"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:19 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> writes:
For example, they say that a 3 inch drive (as compared
to 3.5" drive)
has "a different voltage system".
That's correct. The Amstrad-branded 3" drives that are common in the UK
have a power connector that's wired backwards from the usual 3.5"
standard, and a completely different pinout on the data
connector. There's a picture of one here:
https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/3inch_floppy.html
(The other useful thing to know about those drives is that the drive
belt is the same size as a standard Royal Mail rubber band, so in a
pinch you can ask your postman for a temporary replacement.)
"There are over 150 floppies present in our
collections,"
That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
I did the same thing for Abertay University when I was working there in
2019, after the university's newly-appointed archivist approached the
computer science department asking if anybody could help read some
floppies he'd found. He went through the archives and found 30 floppies
in total in various formats, all of which I managed to read using
ImageDisk -- although for a couple of them I had to deliberately
misalign a 5.25" drive.
Abertay has about 4,000 students to Cambridge's 22,000, which works out
at roughly the same number of archived disks per student...
--
Adam Sampson <ats(a)offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
12:42 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
Some other information.
"There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
It mentions "Shugart Interface" ONLY; that would leave out EVERYTHING
from Apple and pre-Amiga Commodors!
"these are the carriers most at risk due to their age and the material
that they are made from." ??!?
(But, there ARE ways around that, including flux transition systems.)
19 Oct
19 Oct
4:59 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
On 10/18/25 12:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
Some other information.
"There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
Doc
5:28 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
To be able to see the thousands more.
5:43 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
French, Belgian, Norwegian and Canadian tv is also pretty good.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk
wrote:
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
To be able to see the thousands more.
5:46 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Just thinking about tv, almost everything foreign is pretty good. German tv is a bit dark
though.
Never saw Russian tv.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:43, Wayne S
<wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
French, Belgian, Norwegian and Canadian tv is also pretty good.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
>>> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
>>> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
>
>>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
>> Say what????
>> I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
>> Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
>
> To be able to see the thousands more.
6:19 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
On 19/10/2025 23:46, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Just thinking about tv, almost everything foreign is
pretty good. German tv is a bit dark though.
Never saw Russian tv.
Sent from my iPhone
I must say Spanish TV appears to be lot UK and US programs
dubbed into
Spanish, I can just about cope with Pepper Pig in Spanish but anything
more serious means I flip back to "original language"..
..that and statues of Saints and the Messiah being carried round on
large platforms, oh and of course football, that is soccer in American
Dave
> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:43, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> French, Belgian, Norwegian and Canadian tv is also pretty good.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
>>>> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
>>>> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
>>>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
>>> Say what????
>>> I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
>>> Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
>> To be able to see the thousands more.
6:36 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Spanish tv is good too. Just about everything in European tv seems to be good. I have a
hard with comedies though. Most jokes reference politics so you have to have prior
knowledge of that.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 16:28, David Wade via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 19/10/2025 23:46, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Just thinking about tv, almost everything foreign is pretty good. German tv is a bit
dark though.
Never saw Russian tv.
Sent from my iPhone
I must say Spanish TV appears to be lot UK and US programs dubbed into Spanish, I
can just about cope with Pepper Pig in Spanish but anything more serious means I flip back
to "original language"..
..that and statues of Saints and the Messiah being carried round on large platforms, oh
and of course football, that is soccer in American
Dave
>> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:43, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> French, Belgian, Norwegian and Canadian tv is also pretty good.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
>>>> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
>>>> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
>>>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
>>> Say what????
>>> I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
>>> Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
>> To be able to see the thousands more.
9:32 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
It comes down to the transcrtiption system and decoding the bits spewing
out.
What's with all the gebus stuff and (for me) foreign TV, Well, Python was
good
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 4:43 PM Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Spanish tv is good too. Just about everything in
European tv seems to be
good. I have a hard with comedies though. Most jokes reference politics so
you have to have prior knowledge of that.
Sent from my iPhone
Spanish, I can just about cope with Pepper Pig in Spanish but anything more
serious means I flip back to "original language"..
On Oct 19, 2025, at 16:28, David Wade via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> On 19/10/2025 23:46, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
> Just thinking about tv, almost everything foreign is pretty good.
German tv is a bit dark though.
Never saw
Russian tv.
Sent from my iPhone
I must say Spanish TV appears to be lot UK and US programs dubbed into
..that and statues of Saints and the Messiah
being carried round on
large platforms, oh and of course football, that is soccer in American
Dave
>
>>> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:43, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> French, Belgian, Norwegian and Canadian tv is also pretty good.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:38, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
>>>> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
>>>> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
>>>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
>>> Say what????
>>> I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
>>> Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
>> To be able to see the thousands more.
7:44 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
On Sun, 2025-10-19 at 22:43 +0000, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
French, Belgian, Norwegian and Canadian tv is also
pretty good.
Years ago I had AT&T cable (until their anti-loyalty policy kicked in
and their price became 50% more than Spectrum). They had a channel
called World View (not the same as the World Vision charity scam). I
enjoyed watching mysteries in French (Maigret), Swedish (Beck), Dutch,
Italian(Nardoni, La Piovra), Suomi, German, …. One especially
interesting one was "Brunetti," which was about an Italian inspector in
Venice — but all the dialogue was in German. They all had subtitles,
not dubbing. AFAIK, AT&T doesn't offer that channel any more.
19 Oct
19 Oct
5:44 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025, 4:37 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
wrote:
I feel I've not over done it with 300 floppies
Warner
>
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote:
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
To be able to see the thousands more.
6:01 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Reading their home page, they really don’t have a clue!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:53, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025, 4:37 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I feel I've not over done it with 300 floppies
Warner
>
>
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk
wrote:
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
To be able to see the thousands more.
6:11 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Floppies are like any rare book, It's not the book, it's the contents.
(angry)
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 4:08 PM Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Reading their home page, they really don’t have a
clue!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:53, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025, 4:37 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I feel I've not over done it with 300 floppies
Warner
>
>
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk
wrote:
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
To be able to see the thousands more.
6:17 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
It’s more about being able to read and understand the contents of the disk. The first line
saying they will only use floppies with a Shucart interface shows the (low) level of
knowledge of floppy drives and disks. That like saying they will only translate disk with
labels written with a pencil. They are gonna miss a lot of stuff. I just hope they don’t
throw away any disks they think are bad.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 16:11, Jim Davis <jim.p.davis(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Floppies are like any rare book, It's not the book, it's the contents. (angry)
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 4:08 PM Wayne S via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
Reading their home page, they really don’t have a clue!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 15:53, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025, 4:37 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>>
wrote:
I feel I've not over done it with 300 floppies
Warner
>
>
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
> "There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
> That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Doc Shipley via cctalk
wrote:
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
To be able to see the thousands more.
7:13 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
It’s more about being able to read and understand the
contents of the
disk. The first line saying they will only use floppies with a Shucart
interface shows the (low) level of knowledge of floppy drives and disks.
Large amounts, or at least a large portion, of the specific KIND of
information that they are after will be found on Apple and Mac disks.
Apple Turnover was one of many hardware adaptations, to be able to read
AppleII with Shugart interface.
A good flux transition device, even with Shugrart interface, would let
them get at the raw track content, and then we find out whether they are
any good at analyzing them.
Do they have knowledge of the (low) level formats of disks?
Do they have knowledge of the higher lever (such as DIRectory structures of disks?
Do they have knowledge of the file formats (often proprietary) used by programs?
I have been told that each version of Weird and WordPervert can handle
files form or two versions back; but older than that is not supported.
First time that I was a Wordstar file, what neede to be done was
immediately obvious.
But almost everything newer gets difficult.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:57 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Reading their home page, they really don’t have a
clue!
Keep in mind, that Oxbridge is a university. SOME academics do not
respect knowledge and techniques developed and used in industry or
non-academic institutions.
"Not invented here"
I doubt that they have even sought out existing disk format conversions
services and experts.
So, they would be looking for academic (peer reviewed?) papers about
things such as how to bake disks, rather than looking for old posts by
Chuck.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:14 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Is oxbridge also cambridge?
It looks to me that someone needed a grant and decided that preserving the Hawking floppy
disks was of some value and that would help to get a grant.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Reading their home page, they really don’t have a clue!
Keep in mind, that Oxbridge is a university. SOME academics do not respect knowledge and
techniques developed and used in industry or non-academic institutions.
"Not invented here"
I doubt that they have even sought out existing disk format conversions services and
experts.
So, they would be looking for academic (peer reviewed?) papers about things such as how
to bake disks, rather than looking for old posts by
Chuck.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:15 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Should’ve added that disc preservation is really not the main goal.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 17:14, Wayne S
<wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Is oxbridge also cambridge?
It looks to me that someone needed a grant and decided that preserving the Hawking floppy
disks was of some value and that would help to get a grant.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 19, 2025, at 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>>>> https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
>
>>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
>> Reading their home page, they really don’t have a clue!
>
> Keep in mind, that Oxbridge is a university. SOME academics do not respect knowledge
and techniques developed and used in industry or non-academic institutions.
> "Not invented here"
> I doubt that they have even sought out existing disk format conversions services and
experts.
>
>
> So, they would be looking for academic (peer reviewed?) papers about things such as
how to bake disks, rather than looking for old posts by
> Chuck.
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:34 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
Oxbridge is an umbrella term for Oxford and Cambridge Universities; cf Ivy League - they
think of themselves as the first tier ...
As a Brit, prima facie, the Cambridge University Library's efforts at floppy disk
curation are a bit embarasing, does anyone have a feedback path
https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20251009-rescuing-knowledge-trapped-on…
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne S via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 20 October 2025 00:14
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Cambridge University Library
Is oxbridge also cambridge?
It looks to me that someone needed a grant and decided that preserving the Hawking floppy
disks was of some value and that would help to get a grant.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 19, 2025, at 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Reading their home page, they really don’t have a clue!
Keep in mind, that Oxbridge is a university. SOME academics do not respect knowledge and
techniques developed and used in industry or non-academic institutions.
"Not invented here"
I doubt that they have even sought out existing disk format conversions services and
experts.
So, they would be looking for academic (peer reviewed?) papers about
things such as how to bake disks, rather than looking for old posts by Chuck.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:30 p.m.
New subject: Cambridge University Library
From all the Atari 8 bit, the 8002a and old 80-90's PC disks I must have
over a thousand.
On Sun, Oct 19, 2025 at 3:07 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/18/25 12:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
https://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/future-nostalgia
Some other information.
"There are over 150 floppies present in our collections,"
That does NOT seem to me to be a large collection at all.
Say what????
I can SEE "over 150 floppies" from where I sit.
Yes, I do need to sort & clear my bench...
Doc
18 Oct
18 Oct
1:06 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 10/18/2025 12:12 PM EDT Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
"There are TWO times that an Engish car (or many
years of Harleys) does
not leak oil: before it is put in at the factory, and after it has all
leaked out."
And even more off topic:
Similar statement about CH-47 Chinook helicopter. If you get in a Chinook and see
hydraulic fluid, don't worry. If you DON'T see any, then worry; it all leaked
out.
Will
2:26 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 11:56 +0100, David Wade via cctalk wrote:
Harley Davidsons also have oil leak issues.
While AMF owned Harley, they leaked like a sieve. My brother called
them Hardly Ablesons.
They're better now.
7:32 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
“Why do Brits drink warm beer?”
“They have Lucas refrigerators.”
On Oct 17, 2025, at 7:33 PM, bluewater emailtoilet.com
via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
https://youtu.be/O_-1WxTBNHI
On Oct 17, 2025, at 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Martin Bishop wrote:
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems to be there
[BeerMode raambling]
British beer is excellent, and always has been. (and, It doesn't need to be cooled
down to the edge of freezing)
My father used to say, "A pint is a pound, the wrold around"; if that ever was
true of British beer, it wouldn't be now, and even as a unit of measure, a pint is
ambiguous.
Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British cars and motorcycles, and pretty
much not an issue with anything else.
Many inventions come from UK. Including the parents/grandparents of the USA inventors.
Bletchley Park was a major undertaking.
Without Alan Turing, where would we be?
Current AI, despite being STUPID and hallucinating, could probably pass any of the
earlier Turing tests.
(at one point, cchatGPT was asked for the last digit of PI;
a SERIOUS flaw in current AI design is to never let it answer, "I Don't
Know"! Also, there have been a LOT of legal cases where AI drew up briefs, and
included precedents that didn't exist!)
Sinclair did some brilliant and clever stuff.
There is nothing wrong with British computers.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
17 Oct
17 Oct
8:11 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, 2025-10-17 at 16:59 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Martin Bishop wrote:
I am also partial to English beer. My local Altadena pub (which
survived the Eaton fire) has ESB in a hand-pumped, not pressurized cask
— the only pub in LA county that has one of any brand. Ale should be
served at cellar temperature (54°F) because the oils that give it
flavor and aroma are heavier than those in lager. Therefore ale is
"dead" if served at lager temperature (38°F).
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems
to be there
[BeerMode raambling]
British beer is excellent, and always has been. (and, It doesn't need to
be cooled down to the edge of freezing)
My father used to say, "A pint is a pound, the wrold around"; if that ever
was true of British beer, it wouldn't be now, and even as a unit of
measure, a pint is ambiguous.
Oil leaks and Lucas Electrics are issues with British
cars and
motorcycles, and pretty much not an issue with anything else.
Anything else except illegal immigration, censoring undesirable
opinions, arresting Irish citizens on their way home through Heathrow
for "offensive" twitter posts from USA, dentistry, …. But maybe if
Nigel Farage replaces Kier Starmer after the next election some of that
(other than dentistry) will be rectified.
My brother had a Jaguar XK 120 in the 1960s. An oil change for the
magnificent 4.2 liter inline 6 engine required 14 quarts (it was pre-
1964 so I don't know where he got the 4.2 liter engine; maybe it was a
bored-out 3.8). Until the day he died, he regretting having sold it.
When Ford bought Jaguar they tried to make them yet more Mazda
jellybeans, sacrificing what by then was the only remaining attraction
of Jaguar: the styling. My son had a colleague who owned a Jaguar with
a chalked-out paint job. He asked "what's the point of owning a Jag if
it doesn't have nice paint?"
I had a 1954 Triumph T110 motorcycle. I still regret selling it. I had
a colleague who was part of the team trying to break the motorcycle
land speed record with a T110. They tried new fuels, new plugs, new
camshaft, port and polish the intake and exhaust, bigger valves, …
everything they could think of. They wanted to put two carbatooters on
it but the intake ports went straight back and there wasn't room for
two. They got the factory to send new heads with the intake ports
angled 15° outward, put on two carbs, and broke the record. That was
the birth of the T120 Triumph Bonneville, and "The World's Fastest
Motorcycle" on the speedometer. Unfortunately, the new Triumph
motorcycles have the brake and gearshift on the wrong sides now.
18 Oct
18 Oct
12:11 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 8:07 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Martin Bishop wrote:
On my first trip to the UK, in 1985, a (proper Imperial) pint of
standard ale was 85p and a pint of lager was 95p.
It's been 20 years since I've been to London, but even then, beer was
up to over 5 GBP per pint.
I shall shift into BeerMode, everyone else seems
to be there
[BeerMode raambling]
British beer is excellent, and always has been. (and, It doesn't need to
be cooled down to the edge of freezing)
My father used to say, "A pint is a pound, the wrold around"; if that ever
was true of British beer, it wouldn't be now and even as a unit of measure, a pint is ambiguous.
With a proper pint glass, there's a mark. Fill to the mark with beer
(not foam) - totally unambiguous.
-ethan
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 01:11 -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> and even as a unit of measure, a pint is
ambiguous.
The British pint is 20 floz. US pint is 16 floz. And tbe British floz
is different from the US floz. I think they both weigh one ounce, but
Britain defines the volume at the temperature of maximum water density,
4°C, while USA defines it at 20°C.
With a proper pint glass, there's a mark. Fill to the mark with beer
(not foam) - totally unambiguous.
That mark was the result of a lawsuit (!) between a customer and a
publican. You didn't fill my glass! Yes I did! No you didn't! See you
in court.
3:32 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-18 14:39, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 01:11 -0400, Ethan Dicks via
cctalk wrote:
Here in Canada the pint is legally defined as 568.26 ml. I can just see
somebody going to court over that last .26 ml!
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
We started the Maker-Mender Movemnt a hundred years ago!
> and even as a unit of measure, a pint is
ambiguous.
The British pint is 20 floz. US pint is 16 floz. And tbe British floz
is different from the US floz. I think they both weigh one ounce, but
Britain defines the volume at the temperature of maximum water density,
4°C, while USA defines it at 20°C.
With a proper pint glass, there's a mark.
Fill to the mark with beer
(not foam) - totally unambiguous.
That mark was the result of a lawsuit (!) between a customer and a
publican. You didn't fill my glass! Yes I did! No you didn't! See you
in court.
4:30 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 16:32 -0400, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
Here in Canada the pint is legally defined as 568.26
ml. I can just
see
somebody going to court over that last .26 ml!
It seems like a very strange number: 19.215 US floz — but it's almost
exactly 20 British floz.
7:10 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 16:32 -0400, Nigel Johnson Ham
via cctalk wrote:
> Here in Canada the pint is legally defined as 568.26 ml. I can just
> see
> somebody going to court over that last .26 ml!
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
It seems like a very strange number: 19.215 US floz —
but it's almost
exactly 20 British floz.
Q: is that 20.0 British floz, but the extra digits of the 19.215 are an
artifact of conversion to US floz?
19 Oct
19 Oct
1:11 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 17:10 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Exactly. 20 British floz are 586.261 ml
On Sat,
2025-10-18 at 16:32 -0400, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
> Here in Canada the pint is legally defined as
568.26 ml. I can just
> see
> somebody going to court over that last .26
ml!
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
It seems like a very strange number: 19.215 US
floz — but it's almost
exactly 20 British floz.
Q: is that 20.0 British floz, but the extra digits of the 19.215 are an
artifact of conversion to US floz?
10:17 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
>>> Here in Canada the pint is legally defined
as 568.26 ml. I can just
Perhaps:
A pint is DEFINED as the amount of beer you get where you are when you
order a pint. All other measures, such as mL or flOz are of secondary
importance. And you can not expect it to be the same, the world around
11:24 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 2025-10-19 9:17 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
How many
pints are needed before that big piss?
lets get on topic.
>>>
Here in Canada the pint is legally defined as 568.26 ml. I can just
Perhaps:
A pint is DEFINED as the amount of beer you get where you are when you
order a pint. All other measures, such as mL or flOz are of secondary
importance. And you can not expect it to be the same, the world around
18 Oct
18 Oct
3:31 a.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On 17/10/2025 22:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
I believe that IBM had a patent on oil in the computer, for the 7090
core store.
Has anybody wondered why the English don't
build computers?
They haven't figured out how to make them leak oil.
Although how to leak oil remains a problem to solve, they can at least
use Lucas electrical parts! Did they ever make a Dark Emitting Diode?
(there are other ways to accomplish things without needing AC
capacitors and DC wound transformers.) ]
No but I believe we were the first to produce Write Only Memory
There used to be some English computers, and some were very interesting.
Such as Amstrad
The Sinclair ZX80? (rebadged as Timex) doorstop wedge was the first
computer to sell for $100 or less in USA.
The older ones were more interesting...
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Dave
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Waaaay OT: Re: Re: Classic computing - earliest years
On Sat, 2025-10-18 at 09:31 +0100, David Wade via cctalk wrote:
We had a 7094 II in my building at JPL in 1967 that had the oil-cooled
core. They turned it off for Christmas. It never worked again. They
found that bits of solder had been suspended in the oil, and when it
was turned off they settled in little piles on the connections in the
bottom, which fried a bunch of transistors when they turned it on. It
was replaced by air-cooled core.
Actually, in my building it was a 7094/7044 Direct Couple. The next
building over had one too. In the second floor of the main Space Flight
Operations Facility there were six stand-alone 7094s with a couple of
1401s and a 7040 doing card-to-to-tape, tape-to-card, tape-to-print.
The 7040 was also connected to a Univac 419 in the basement that was
connected to teletype machines at tracking stations near Barstow, CA,
Madrid, Johannesburg, and Tidbinbilla. I added code to the Deep Space
Network scheduling program to convert its output to Baudot so schedules
could be sent over the TTY instead of mailing listings from the 1403s.
Tom Smith, who maintained DCOS for the Direct Couple, referred to it as
that "Damned Confusing Operating System." The entire listing fit in his
brief case.
In 1968 the two DCOS systems, and the six stand-alone 7094s, and the
7040, were replaced by three Univac 1108s with 1004s, and remote
DCT2000s later replaced by 9300s. Univac made nice computers buy really
crappy printers. Each of our 1108s routinely ran with 50 demand jobs
and ten batch jobs. Univac insisted that wasn't possible. And they
didn't want our modifications that made it possible. The listing for
Exec 8 was 3,000 pages. 1108s were soon augmented with two 1106s, then
replaced by three 1110s, then two 1100/40s, then one Unisys 2200 and
XTs and ATs on every desk. When they put an AT on my desk (with a giant
20MB hdd) I observed that DOS 3.10 was crap — but it was on every desk.
So I told my broker to buy Microsoft with my 1984 $1,200 income tax
refund. He asked "What's Microsoft?" It doubled, split, doubled, split,
…. When MS stock stagnated I sold it for $300,000. The first thing we
did with our ATs was to replace the 12 MHz crystals with 16 MHz
crystals. Soon after we replaced the 80286 with an Intel InBoard that
had an 80386 on it, then 80486 MB, then Pentium, …. I switched to OS/2
instead of Windoze, then RedHat. Now on Debian at home.
Although how
to leak oil remains a problem to solve, they can at
least
use Lucas electrical parts!
I believe that IBM had a patent on oil in the computer, for the 7090
core store.
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