zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Marty
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Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 10/28/98 10:56 AM
Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd
just slam the door in my face. What a guy!
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From: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com (Bill Richman)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf
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Ok, I have to draw a line on this one Sam ...
At 05:36 PM 10/27/98 -0800, Sam wrote:
>Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market
>value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub
>$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I
>won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I
>want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that
>guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a
>huge distinction.
There IS a huge distinction, there is no such thing as a "fair price."
Its a myth, it don't exist, deal with it. If this "schlub" as you so
affectionately refer to them knew about your thrift store (and I can
guarantee you he will) then you won't find Atari's in thrift stores and
you won't find them at swap meets and the _only_ way to get one will
be to pay more than what some other "schlub" is willing to pay. And if
the price is too rich for you then you won't own one. What's a "fair"
price for a Picasso? a Rembrandt? That is exactly what a market IS
and it is actually _incredibly_ fair. Without external intervention it
will settle on a price that people are willing to pay. To use the 1200XL
example.. Word will get around that a 1200XL goes for 600 on Ebay, so
enterprising folks who have been in thrift stores will start scrounging
around for them, and then they will all put them up on eBay and the
large number of them will cause the price to come down, probably way
down but it may not get down to a level you are comfortable paying.
For heaven's sake, you think there is a "fair" price for a house in
Silicon Valley? Of course not, the MARKET supports a median house price
that is well above what any ordinary mortal could pay for, but only
because there are enough people willing to pay that price. When people
said, "This is f__ ridicululous!" in 1991 guess what, houses stayed
on the market until the price came down. When I bought my house I
offered nearly 100K UNDER the asking price, got the house and it STILL
lost 15K in value over the next couple of years! Now its going back up,
great, but that will change when the guys from eBay who got rich on
the IPO have all bought there houses.
Economics, not just an idea it's a discipline that actually predicts
these things pretty accurately...
--Chuck
Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd
just slam the door in my face. What a guy!
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Bill Richman
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(Home of the COSMAC Elf
microcomputer simulator!)
Very much my fault there. Sorry. I'm in Dallas, Tx, USA. Specifically,
the machine is in my "garage of doom" in North Garland.
-Matt Pritchard
Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist
MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:38 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II stuff!
>
>
>
>
>
> > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone
> > interested?
> Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are!
>
> If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested.
>
> If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested.
>
> If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping.
>
> Philip.
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
>> That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response
>> to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge
> ******
>> that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up.
>
>Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!!
>
>> But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you
>> have the last word publicly.
> ********
>
>Oops I better put the Sam Slammer back in too!
>
>> If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go
>> ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I
>> shall not spew a word about it.
>
>I a speachless - and apprehensive.....
>
>> You're welcome.
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote:
>> > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting
>> > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the
>> > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people
>> > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's
>> > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an
>> > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for
>> > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when
>> > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be
>> > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you
>> > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for
>> > themselves.)
>
>Well - that last time Sam 'went overboard' I couldn't shut HIM up until
>I threatened to go to his VCF and hand out printed copies of his emails
>to the attendees 8-)
>
>Maybe we should get together and do a 'book' on him!
>
>I will say that he gets really sweet right before a VCF and then goes
>power hungry with the list afterwards... but then everything settles
>down to a nice dull roar. Until about March when he knows he has to
>start being nice again - he will have one more flare up before Mr. Nice
>Guy has to come out and play again. I have gotten used to it. Try to
>hang in there Bill.
>
>BC
>
>
Bill Richman
incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
(Home of the COSMAC Elf
microcomputer simulator!)
Just a note to people: when you e-mail someone directly; don't use an
email-address that has something like "your name
<yournameDIE.YOU(a)SPAMMERmydomain.com>" in it. Using Microsoft Outlook
(which I do), it just shows <your name> with the SMTP portion hidden. After
the mail bounces, I'm less inclined to type the whole message again and edit
your user name. So that reply to you offering to sell you the complete
Altair for $50.... well, you didn't get it.
I mean, it's a direct e-mail, not the mailing list. If you think I am going
to spam you... come on.
Ok, now that, I've jumped all over Arfon, I have to say it's nothing
personal and I apologize in advance. it's just not the first time that it's
happened. it's just that I don't even see anything until the mail bounces.
-Matt Pritchard
>
> "Why can't I just shut up?" Fuck you, Sammy boy. With a rusty iron
> pipe. _Anybody_ else can voice an opinion here, but for some reason
> _you_ decided you don't _like_ me (what is it - did I neglect to kiss
> your ass when I came in?), so as soon as I say a _word_, you find a
> reason to end the discussion because it's "off-topic" (nevermind the 5
> or 6 times you contributed to most of the threads in question before I
> said anything), or you accuse me of "fanning the flames" when done
> nothing but voice an opinion like everyone else has been. What total
> and utter bullshit. You really need some Prozac, or a shrink to help
> you work through those left-over potty-training issues from childhood.
> (Or did you forget all the obscene, abusive, highly personal e-mails you
> sent me the last time I forgot to agree with your opinion? I've got a
> special folder that messages from you are filtered into - it's called
> "Asshole". I had thought that you were done with the childish name
> calling and personal attacks, but I guess not.) What would your public
> think - the man who organized SamFest '98 (errr... excuse me... VCF) -
> calling people assholes and telling them to shut up - all because they
> voice an opinion about a list they have an interest in? Not very
> attractive behavior, Sambo. Not very attractive at all.
>
Look, I don't know if this was supposed to be a private mail, or not, but
WHATEVER it is, it's DEFINATELY OFF-TOPIC! I really think I'd have to side
with Sam on this one.
-Jason
***********************************************
* Jason Willgruber *
* (roblwill(a)usaor.net) *
* *
* http://members.tripod.com/general_1 *
* ICQ#-1730318 *
* /0\/0\ *
* > Long Live the 5170! *
* \___/ *
************************************************
Dear Mr. Whitehead,
You could have used some discretion like most of us on this list and
just read the strings you found worthwhile. Instead you insult
virtually everyone on the list and have created yet another flame war
which has no end in sight. Please be advised to re-read the Classiccmp
FAQ which describes how to unsubscribe and 'don't let the door hit you
in the ass on the way out.'
Sincerely,
Marty Mintzell
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Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 10/26/98 3:21 PM
Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise.
I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information
about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software
wise. This list no longer serves that purpose.
What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers
What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers
What does a modern college education have to do with old computers
I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found
that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot
checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading.
Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about.
99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites.
k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz
Keith Whitehead
Electronics Technician
Electronics Services
Institute of Fundamental Sciences
Massey University
Palmerston North
New Zealand
5301
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From: Keith Whitehead <K.J.Whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening
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>>Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated,
>>but sniping is just not possible.
> Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two
> browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info
> already entered and ready to submit.
:)))) You should thank GOd (or alt least your ISP) for your
line, every day twice. Especialy when it's 2 pm to 4 am over
here, it's impossible to do things like that.
And for your extension by x minutes - thats just the same
problem - only the one with enuff time to stay online
and fast lines will be able to participate.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
< So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and
< already in use in main frames - only called data path),
< even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense.
There is some truth to this. DEC went to 64bits as they knew 32bits
were not enough for some applications. They were also trying to design
for the next 20years to repeat the life of the VAX (32bits).
Now, having a large address space isn't completely about filling it.
It's about having addressing modes and arithmetic adaquate to deal with
large data objects. In the 32bit model 4gb is the limit without
thrashing. Those limits was exceeded by disk farms with tens of
Gigabytes of databases and solving large mathmatical models. The
current example would be doing windows graphics programming
(1280x1024x16m) using only 16bit pointers, you do a lot of thrashing
to get the the next 64k chunk and there will be a lot of them! That
was the problem that spawned the VAX!
Brief history lesson: The PDP11 was reachhing the point where a fully
filled machine (4mb of ram) could not process in one lump the large
problems like weather models or MRI data. It was NOT a speed issue it
was 16 bits made for too small a data pointer. Also doing 32/64bit math
required more steps (or FP hardware) as the registers were all 16bit.
So to add two 24bit numbers on a PDP-11 required multiple steps and that
was a speed impact. Going to 32bit registers made that a single
instruction and paid back as speed without processors running at faster
clocks.
If it were speed the 11/74 would have been an ongoing event rather than
the 4-6 than did get made. The birth of the VAX (and DGs Eclipse) grew
>from this need.
So computer designers bumped the size of things to assure they could
comfortably address the likely largest object they can resasonably expect
to see for some time to come. Not so they could have 2^64bytes of ram
but because they already have 2^40bytes of disk farm!
All this was no surprize to computer designers. They foresaw it in
the 60s knowing that larger memories and disks were needed to solve the
problems that were growing.
The datapath issue is strictly about speed as the VAX could have an
8bit data bus (in a trade for speed) like the 68008. While it has a
big effect on speed it has no interaction with addressability. It's
addressing the system problem of multiple devices competing for the
common resource (MEMORY). By making the datapath wide you can grab
several bytes at the same time and while the cpu is dealing with
that the ram is available to run a IO cycle to a disk system or
other IO. How big wide enough is, that is determined by how much
silicon you have.
Allison
