On 2001-03-05 classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <Tony Duell> said:
>>Museums should ideally have the at least a few of the best
>>preserved specimens of chosen categories, especially the rarer
>>categories...
>Is it more important to preserve rare machines or 'important'
>machines? ...
>I can make arguements for either, BTW.
Let's just say I'd be pleased to see nothing significant go to waste.
I'm not an authority on distinctions, just a visitor offering my
concern to preserve what's best for learning purposes.
>>both working and nonworking condition: working order for
>>preservation; nonworking for learning. Of course, any of us
>>should be allowed to...
>Have you got that the right way round?
Alright. Both working and nonworking systems have their use. That's
what I'd suggest. My apologies for not "writing straightly".
>>have private collections for learning or whatever else -- but not
>>the liberty to deliberately destroy history that could be
>>beneficial to mankind.
>Are you suggesting that scrap dealers should be turned into
>criminals ? (I don't agree with this).
No. My use of *deliberately* implies *knowingly*, which I would
say certain individuals might do to hide the value of "old
technology" in order to turn attention to some selfish, lucrative
scheme. This is not on the same level as "scrap dealers", as you
might suggest.
I would like to emphasize that I value classic computer history
more for its lessons than the methods of its material preservation.
Of course, the former depends on the latter -- but you can surely
appreciate my elevation of principle above all else.
Jerry... on his IBM PC/AT 5170 Model 339 | My laptop computer's a
***** 9600kbps/30MB HD/512k RAM/8 MHz | Tandy TRS-80 Model 100
Net-Tamer V 1.11.2X - Registered
The B5500 doesn't run Algol 60, technically speaking. It runs Burroughs
Extended Algol, which is based on Algol 60. For example, BEA (cuz I don't
wanna type out the whole name), doesn't include all of the characters used
in Algol 60, it has a different replacement operator, uses a different
symbol for exponents, and powers of ten in numbers are written out
differently. Another major difference is that Algol 60 doesn't have reserved
words, and BEA does. There are some other details too.. If anyone is
wondering, I'm getting this from my "ALGOL Programming ...A Basic Approach"
which was written by 2 guys from Burroughs and one from Marathon Oil, who
was big into the B5000.
Will J
_________________________________________________________________
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"Lee Courtney" <leec(a)slip.net> wrote:
> "Computers in the 1980s" by Turn (1974) also has a brief, but interesting,
> take on HLL hardware.
There are another couple of books I would recommend Scott Guthery
track down:
"Advances in Computer Architecture" by Glenford J. Myers.
There are at least two editions of this book (both published by Wiley):
(1st) 1978, ISBN 0-471-83475-4
(2nd) 1982, ISBN 0-471-07878-6
IIRC, between editions he had moved from IBM to Intel and the 2nd
edition has an additional chapter on the IAPX 432.
"High-Level Language Computer Architecture" edited by Yaohan Chu.
Published by Academic Press, 1975, ISBN 0-12-174150-8.
> Has the SYMBOL machine machine been mentioned? (There's one in on display at
> the Computer Museum History Center in Mtn. View CA.).
One, or part of one?
I'm pretty sure that both of the above books include some discussion
of the SYMBOL machine. Predictably, I don't have either at hand to
look; they're both in storage and storage is a mess right now.
-Frank McConnell
From: Mark Tapley <mtapley(a)swri.edu>
> There's another category of machines like the "Basic stamp" that
>have an HLL in firmware "on chip" (either in ROM on the CPU chip, or in
>another chip on the same IC). From an architectural point of view, I
think
>this is a lot different from what you are talking about, but you may
want
>to make a list for that category as well, for completeness. I'll bet
you'll
>find some processors that are right on the edge between categories, too.
Add to that... machines where the cpus had internal rom with...
National NSC8073 with tinybasic on internal rom
Intel 8052 (8051 serios with 8k basic).
8051 with Forth in internal rom
An assortment of small handhelds with a chip containing basic
Then there were the machines with internal rom or microcode that ran some
hll...
Didn't Wang have a small micro with basic on rom?
Allison
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Frank McConnell fmc(a)reanimators.org
> Date: 05 Mar 2001 23:17:34 -0800
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: HLL Computers
>
> There are another couple of books I would recommend Scott Guthery
> track down:
>
> "High-Level Language Computer Architecture" edited by Yaohan Chu.
> Published by Academic Press, 1975, ISBN 0-12-174150-8.
Another good one. I'll check for references to SYMBOL in this book when I
get home tonight.
> > Has the SYMBOL machine machine been mentioned? (There's one
> in on display at
> > the Computer Museum History Center in Mtn. View CA.).
>
> One, or part of one?
I believe TCMHC only has the CPU. Its the box on display between the PDP10
and the Meiko supercomputer. BTW, David Ditzel of Transmeta worked on SYMBOL
(at Iowa?) and recently rediscovered the machine on display during a recent
visit.
When I was in college in the 75-79 timeframe HLL architectures were the
subject of considerable interest and research (and I believe this was the
case for the previous 20 years). I was originally drawn to working at HP by
the work they had done providing microcode support for an incremental APL
compiler on the HP3000 (which was the subject of a lawsuit HP lost before
withdrawing the product, but that's another thread). I thought it was a
fascinating field, but the tidal wave of RISC architectures in the early-80s
I think pretty much killed off HLL architectures (which I believe was the
right thing).
Lee Courtney
Engineering Manager Phone: (408) 328-9238
MontaVista Software, Inc. Fax: (408) 328-9204
1237 East Arques Avenue Web: www.hardhatlinux.com
Sunnyvale, CA 94085 Email: lcourtney(a)mvista.com
Check out the embedded Linux experts at http://www.hardhatlinux.com
From: Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se>
>anglophony, since they are archaic beyond reason. I wonder why there
hasn't
>been a revolution in America, isn't the people tired of using all that
inch
>and oz stuff?
;) Yep.
- I own a toyota... metric tools.
- I did many years ago work on british morotcycles decimal inches.
- I have a full tool crib, fractional inches, however, drills are number,
letter,
fractional inch and decimal inch. The verniers and micrometers are in
thousandths of an inch.
- However, my us standard snow blower uses the US common 14mm spark plug.
- I fly a plane and use knots not MPH or KPH. My altimiter is in inches
but
weather is in millibars.
- I cook, grams, oz, drams, pinches, "abit of" and so on.
An all I wanted to do was drill an eigth inch hole for a number six screw
to mount
the capacitor (condensor) in my 10m reciever.
I ponder this over a cup of Coffee. ;)
Allison
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Frank McConnell fmc(a)reanimators.org
> Date: 05 Mar 2001 23:17:34 -0800
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: HLL Computers
>
> There are another couple of books I would recommend Scott Guthery
> track down:
>
> "High-Level Language Computer Architecture" edited by Yaohan Chu.
> Published by Academic Press, 1975, ISBN 0-12-174150-8.
Yup, another good one. WHen I get home I'll look to see if it discusses the
SYMBOL machine. BTW, David Ditzel of Transmeta worked on SYMBOL (at Iowa)
and recently rediscovered the machine when he saw the one on display at
MOffett.
When I was in college in the mid-70s HLL architectures were an area of
considerable interest and research. I was originally attracted to work at HP
because of work they had done creating an incremental APL compiler with
microcode support on the HP3000. The RISC tidal wave seems to have
extinguished most efforts in this area.
> > Has the SYMBOL machine machine been mentioned? (There's one
> in on display at
> > the Computer Museum History Center in Mtn. View CA.).
>
> One, or part of one?
>
I believe only the CPU is in the collection.
The artificially inflated valuation of a donation to a museum is exactly how
many paintings ended up in museums. The IRS cracked down of paintings
created to be donations for tax fraud purposes. The same scheme has been
tried with, property, cars, clothing, furniture, horses, and boats. The
main issue is FMV, fair market value. You can't claim it's worth $100,000
if nobody will pay that. It's especially difficult without comparable sales
of the item to value your item.
There have been cases of dealers trading items among themselves to establish
an artificial market value. No money changed hands just paperwork.
Mike
mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu
Scott,
>I'm making a list of the processors and computers
>that in one way or another tried to directly execute
>a high-level programming language. Here's what I have
>so far. ...
There's another category of machines like the "Basic stamp" that
have an HLL in firmware "on chip" (either in ROM on the CPU chip, or in
another chip on the same IC). From an architectural point of view, I think
this is a lot different from what you are talking about, but you may want
to make a list for that category as well, for completeness. I'll bet you'll
find some processors that are right on the edge between categories, too.
- Mark
Hmm...the person at the contact number said this messages is
*months* old, and those terminals are long gone.
-Dave McGuire
On December 13, Bill Dawson wrote:
> HP 2392A Terminals free for pickup or cost of shipping, pickup
> preferred.
>
> 7 are located in Philadelphia, PA and 7 are in Tampa, FL. All are still
> operational and include the original boxes.
>
> Please contact Lisa Flores at Abtech Systems by phone or email to make
> arrangements:
>
> (800)474-7397 (Carlsbad, CA) or lisax.flores(a)xabtechsys.com (remove the
> x's)
>
> Arrangements should be made ASAP. There may be much more HP equipment
> available in the future for free if this goes well. Abtech has HP and
> Sun equipment, along with other things such as Netservers, PC's and
> peripherals, etc. that are not worth shipping back to Carlsbad and may
> become available to listmembers in the future.
>
>
> Bill
