On Nov 22 2005, 12:33, Jules Richardson wrote:
> Of course with ST506/412 you're probably OK - the Adaptec board
probably
> supports various sector sizes
Yes, normally 256 or 512 bytes/sector.
> But with SCSI straight to the host adapter it'll be somewhat
different and the
> drive needs to support whatever the initiator requests, which I
expect is 256
> bytes/sector.
Yes. The original drives were all Rodime drives -- at least all the
ones I saw were -- and they did support 256 byte sectors.
> Pete, were there two releases of the format utility - one for ST-type
disks
> and one for SCSI?
Probably but I don't remember formatting a SCSI disk. Actually, perhps
I did. The Filestore utilities disks contain a version of AForm and
presumably that's what it's for.
> Certainly prior to formatting an ST-type disk with the OMTI board you
need to
> issue an 0xC2 "assign disk parameters" command to tell the board what
it's
> connected to; I can't imagine this is different with the Adaptec
It uses a Mode Select command.
> >> making a teledisk image; that *might* work. They're
double-density,
> >> 256 bytes/sector, 16 sectors/track.
> >
> > Should be possible, but not a lot of use to me as I don;t haev
Teledisk
> > (and don't intend to try to write soemthing to handle its images).
I
> > might have a go at writing programs to handle Imagedisk stuff
though.
>
> True, Imagedisk is probably a more viable format these days (hat off
to Dave
> D).
Although Teledisk is available in many places on the net, and lots of
disk images exist as TD0 files. It's still the standard for CP/M and
DOS systems, for example, and it's a small program so an easy download.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
I still can't find a schematic for the power supply, although I
hope it's similar to the H780. But I did manage to unearth the
PDP-11 "Field Guide" (thanks to Megan Gentry for maintaining it).
So now I know my 11/03-L system has:
M8189 = KDF11-B: LSI-11/23+ CPU
Clearpoint 2 Mb memory
M8061 = RLV12: an RL01/RL02 controller
M7957 = DZV11-M: 4 serial ports
M8053 = DMV11: V.35 Controller .... what's that for? A modem?
Dilog CQ1610: 16 serial ports
M8029 = RXV21: an RX02 controller.
The RL02 was filthy on the outside but nice and clean on the
inside, and powers up. Guess it's time to make a cable to hook it
to the RLV12 and see if the Fault light goes off (just like my 8/A
I assume).
Although I suppose I shouldn't complain, how much trouble would it
be for the institutions discarding hardware to disconnect the
cables instead of cutting them off!
Now all I need is some kind of OS on an RL02 pack, and a room full
of twenty terminals :)
-Charles
I actually haven't used 3.2 BASIC on the emulator in a while, instead
favoring 8k or Extended BASIC.
I can't get it to work here at work but I suspect that it's because of
configuration issues (blocked telnet).
To run 4k BASIC, load the toggle loader file lodr_4k.hex. Then load the
paper tape file using the emulated cassette drive in PLAY mode (an
anachronism, but that's how I could get 4k to work based on the port
configurations. Altair paper tapes and cassettes used the same format).
Click RESET, then EXAMINE to set address 0. Raise A15 and click RUN. If all
goes well, 4k should pop up.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Jim Battle
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:12 AM
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: BASIC's question mark and PRINT
Allison wrote:
> Jim Battle wrote:
>
>> Allison wrote:
>>
>>>> Subject: Re: BASIC's question mark and PRINT
>>>> From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net>
>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:31 -0600
>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>>>
>>>> tim lindner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In BASIC, where did the short cut of '?' for PRINT originate?
>>>>>
>>>>> After following a discussion on the CoCo list I thought I'd ask here.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here are some bounds and data points.
>>>>
>>>> The Dartmouth BASIC specification does not have ? as an abbrevation
>>>> (circa 1964).
>>>>
>>>> I think all versions of Microsoft BASIC have this shortcut (circa
>>>> 1975).
>>>>
>>>> Palo Alto Tiny BASIC (li chen wang) didn't use this convention --
>>>> instead it used "P.".
>>>>
>>>> Wang BASIC (circa 1972) didn't use this convention.
>>>>
>>>> From what I can tell, DEC BASIC didn't use this abbreviation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The ? was adopted by convention from the fact that early MS basic
>>> (MITS BASIC) the ? was also the same value as the token for print.
>>> Most of the non-compiled 8bit basics were tokenized in memory for
>>> execution and storage and when "LIST"ed were detokenized to list as
>>> Basic we know.
>>>
>>> Allison
>>
>>
>>
>> Allison, that seems unlikely. Later versions of microsoft basic
>> certainly didn't use any value lower than 0x80 for tokens. Even if
>> you could find a few characters in the "live" portion of the ascii
>> table that didn't lead to ambiguous parsing, I can't think of a good
>> reason why they'd do it -- there was enough room at 0x80 and above,
>> and not enough unused values below 0x80, so why have two lookup tables
>> when one would do?
>>
>> It would seem much easier to have special case where '?' got mapped to
>> the token for PRINT.
>>
>> OK, trying to be less speculative, I looked at the binary for
>>
>> ALTAIR BASIC VERSION 3.2 [EIGHT-K VERSION]
>>
>> that is included with Rich Cini's Altair emulator. At the end is the
>> list of the statement keywords. In memory each keyword abuts the
>> next, and the boundary between keywords is marked by setting the msb
>> of the byte. Here is the table in order:
>>
>> END
>> FOR
>> NEXT
>> DATA
>> INPUT
>> DIM
>> READ
>> LET
>> GOTO
>> RUN
>> IF
>> RESTORE
>> GOSUB
>> RETURN
>> REM
>> STOP
>> OUT
>> ON
>> NULL
>> WAIT
>> DEF
>> POKE
>> PRINT
>> CONT
>> LIST
>> CLEAR
>> CLOAD
>> CSAVE
>> NEW
>> TAB(
>>
>> Since there no room for storing a token value after each item (I know
>> it is possible that that mapping is held elsewhere, but it seems
>> unlikely), these keywords very likely have consecutive token values.
>>
>> Elsewhere in the binary, near the beginning, is a similar table for
>> the functions (FN, SPC, NOT, AND, OR, VAL, CHR, LEFT, RIGHT, MID, FRE,
>> SIN, COS, TAN, PEEK, etc, but also including THEN, STEP).
>
>
> Ever look at the saved files or in memory programs?
I tried using Rich that 3.2 version of basic on Altair32 but I wasn't able
to
figure out how to get it to run (just like the real hardware, I'm sure!). I
then tried a somewhat later version of MS basic, version 4.7, on my Sol.
The
in-memory token for PRINT is 164, or 0xA4.
How I determined that was as follows:
10 PRINT "aqzy"
20 FOR I=0 to 50000
30 IF PEEK(I)<>ASC("a") THEN 100
40 IF PEEK(I+1)<>ASC("q") THEN 100
50 IF PEEK(I+2)<>ASC("z") THEN 100
60 IF PEEK(I+3)<>ASC("y") THEN 100
70 FOR J=-6 TO 5
80 PRINT I+J, PEEK(I+J), CHR$(PEEK(I+J))
90 NEXT J:STOP
100 NEXT I
It finds itself and then prints the bytes of the line. The string may
appear in
memory more than once due to the fact it might appear in an edit buffer or
some
scratch space in addition to its program location.
Rich, if you can get your version 3.2 MS BASIC running on your Altair32
emulator
perhaps you can run the program and report what token is used for PRINT.
Here's my list of (mostly) classic computer parts that
I need to give away. All free for collection in Bristol
(UK):
DEC TU77 reel-to-reel tape drive suitable for PDP-10 or DECsystem-2020.
With manuals and a few spares. Massbus interface. Will need van with
tail-lift to shift it.
QIC quarter-inch tape drive, Archive model 2525S with SCSI interface.
Capacity 525Mb per tape, with box of tapes.
Digital DECstation 5000/240 model PM38A-AC. With colour framebuffer
and two external SCSI disk/tape drive cases (with disks). MIPS CPU.
Will run NetBSD.
Several SCSI external disk/tape enclosures with power supplies.
Some have Exabyte tape drives in them (full-height).
Several full-height 5.25" SCSI hard disk drives. Capacities range
>from 327Mb to 1.3Gb.
IBM RAID disk caddy for SCA-type SCSI disk. FRU 00N7281.
PVC cover for Teletype Model ASR33.
Case for iMac in pink. Just the case, no internal parts.
HP LaserJet IID for spares. Giving Error 50, a fuser failure, but
I've had no luck fixing it. Also some spares from a LaserJet II.
Video monitor for Tandy TRS-80. Monochrome, with video input.
Actually a TV set, converted by Tandy to remove the tuner and
add a video input.
Apricot PC and printer. The original Apricot MS-DOS machine,
with 10Mb hard disk. 8086 CPU, but not PC-compatible!
Sage IV, as used by INMOS for transputer development. Badged
with INMOS logo. 68000 CPU.
Western Digital FileCard 30. 30Mb hard disk on a full-length
ISA card.
Apple Mac IIsi with video monitor. 68030 CPU.
Two quarter-inch tape backup units.
Sun 3/60 with colour framebuffer. Desktop "pizza box". 68020 CPU.
Sun 3/60 with mono monitor and disk "shoebox". 68020 CPU.
Sun 3/260 with colour framebuffer and monitor. In floorstanding
chassis with two internal full-height 5.25" hard disks. 68020 CPU.
Personal Computer World magazines: Dec 1983, Feb & Apr 1984, Jan 1985,
Jan & Apr 1986, Apr 1993.
--
John Honniball
coredump at gifford.co.uk
>
>Subject: Re: BASIC's question mark and PRINT
> From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net>
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:12:05 -0600
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>
>
>Rich, if you can get your version 3.2 MS BASIC running on your Altair32 emulator
>perhaps you can run the program and report what token is used for PRINT.
Altair basic V3.2 at startup looks at the sense switches (port adddress 377Q)
for a value that tells it if the SIO-A, SIO-B or 2SIO is the IO. The alternate
is to watch it run on the FP and stop it where it loops and look at the IO
instructions. Least that how it was done on the real Altair.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: Ultrix for DECstations
> From: Bill Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:09:13 -0500
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Allison wrote:
>
>>Who was it that had the signline of something like:
>>
>>Don't you wish you could buy now what DEC had then.
>>
>>Allison
>>
>>
>You remembered. 8-)
>
>d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
>pechter-at-gmail.com
Thankyou for that! Some of the things I was used to at DEC I still haven't
found a PC version that is close. If there ever was one that would be
VAXNotes, really great collaboritive tool.
Anyone ever do a wintel editor (NOT WORD) that had a single key for advance
cursor one word?
Allison
>
>Subject: PDP-11/03 basic questions
> From: Charles <charlesmorris at direcway.com>
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:12:40 -0600
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>Today I powered up the "new" 11/03-L, with which I have absolutely
>no experience. The POWER OK light blinked slowly on and off for a
>while and then went out. Now it doesn't come on at all. The top
>card in the cage, though, has a row of red LED's and a large green
>one, all of which are lit.
>
>Power supply is H7861, cage is BA-11SA.
>
>The cards from top to bottom are:
>M8189
11/23b
>2 Mb Clearpoint memory card (don't see a model number)
>M8061
RLV12 cartridge disk controller.
>M7957
DZV11 serial mux.
>M8053
With an M8064 it would be sync controller DMV11
>Dilog CQ 1610 card (what is it? Many 2861 PLCC chips in sockets)
2861 is a serial chip, likely a multiport serial card.
>M8029
RXV21 8" floppy interface (RX02)
On thing is for sure it's not an 11/03! the 11/03 CPu is either M7264
or M7270. You have an 11/23B (M8189).
>
>I didn't see a lot of 11/03 manuals on the bitsavers site. Before
>I do a lot of searching and headscratching, can one of the -11
>gurus tell me what kind of beast I've got here? Or point me to the
>appropriate manuals?
For certain you are looking for the wrong thing anyway. If you'd found
11/03 manuals it would not cover much of the hardware listed. The base
system is 11/23B (or 11/23+) and you need to find individual manuals for
the boards as that is likely a hybridized system and not a stock
configuration. By that I mean either someone dumped all the bards they
had in it or it was built as a special purpose system.
Allison
>From: "Doc Shipley" <doc at mdrconsult.com>
>
>Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> On 11/21/2005 at 12:55 PM Eric J Korpela wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The drawbacks of this system are that you need to prime it, and that a bad
>>>enough leak will disrupt the coolant flow, so you need to monitor the flow
>>>rate or have a decent thermal shutdown mechanism. You need that in case of
>>>pump failure, anyway.
>>
>>
>> Why not simply use a standard sump pump? Most such pumps can push a 15 or
>> 20 foot head and don't need to be primed.
>
> I think that putting the computer higher than the pump can push is
>the point. If the computer's on the low-pressure side of the circuit,
>(the pump is *pulling* water through instead of *pushing* ) it would
Hi
Not actually pulling. It would still be pushing but the
top part of the system would be siphoning. This means it has
negative pressure relative to the air.
Dwight
>take a very large leak to get the system wet. It'll pull air into the
>water lines, instead of pushing water out into the electronics.
>
>
> Doc
