test-drb May 2011

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

162 participants
224 discussions

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

I had a ham license (coded Tech class, KA2UZK) from 1984 to 1994, and was quite active on VHF FM and HF CW during that time. I've missed it quite a bit over the years and have always intended to relicense, but the piles of rules changes gave me pause, as rote memorization isn't really my strong suit. Well, the recent discussion of ham radio licensing motivated me to finally get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days to assimilate the new rules & regs, and registered for the VE test given at the hamfest in Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three exams...Element 2 (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and Element 4 (Extra class). I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time through! And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. The FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was granted an Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. Of I'm still in West Virginia handling family business, while all of my ham gear is in Florida, but my mother (who is house-sitting for me in Florida) was able to ship two of my HTs up here so I'd have something at least. When I have access to my HF gear (Yaesu FT-ONE and FT-920, Heath HW-7, HW-8, and HW-9 QRP rigs, and Heath SB-101) I hope to try out some of the neat new(ish) stuff like PSK31 that came up while I was away. High-tech stuff aside, I'm sure to do some plain old SSB and CW on the HF bands. Anyway, enough of my blather, I'm just proud to have accomplished that and wanted to tell everyone. I'm hoping to catch some of you on the air! -Dave 73's DE AK4HZ -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

14 years

HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 12:00 -0500 5/10/11, Charles wrote: >Is there a source for GOOD toner cartridges? Google finds a bunch of >cartridges, but how many are junk refills? I am willing to pay for good >cartridges, but I can't tell good from bad. Are feeding parts available if >they start to pull multiple sheets, etc? Are there reputable sources? > >I know these have a good reputation generally, and I used one for a long >time in the '90s. I've had reasonable success (with my LaserJet4M+, a later model) with: http://www2.printerworks.com/ No connection, just satisfied customer. YMMV. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.

14 years

Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor

by kandres＠epssecurity.com

As far as the "broken track", with difficult to remove components, and the lack of an octopus with scope, an exacto knife slice of track can be used to meter suspect components without removal. A solder bridge then repairs the "service trick". As Tony suggested, watch for modifications that may have altered the track on purpose! Kevin Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc Nicet # 90660 Fire Alarm Systems Level II 616 459 0281 kandres at epssecurity.com epssecurity.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech-request at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:46 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 93, Issue 10 Send cctech mailing list submissions to cctech at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctech-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: "Original" IBM PC (Tony Duell) 2. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Tony Duell) 3. Re: rack mounting vintage gear (Al Kossow) 4. Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) (Wolfgang Eichberger) 5. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (dwight elvey) 6. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Dave Caroline) 7. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Chuck Guzis) 8. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (John Robertson) 9. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Brent Hilpert) 10. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Rob Jarratt) 11. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (arcarlini at iee.org) 12. IBM 3480 help (Patrick Finnegan) 13. Re: IBM 3480 help (vintagecoder at aol.com) 14. Re: IBM 3480 help (Al Kossow) 15. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Geoffrey Reed) 16. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Pete Turnbull) 17. Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) (Mark Meiss) 18. Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) (Richard) 19. Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) (Mark Meiss) 20. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (arcarlini at iee.org) 21. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Rob Jarratt) 22. S-100 EPROM boards are here! (Andrew Lynch) 23. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Chuck Guzis) 24. pdp11 CPU on S100 board? (David Griffith) 25. Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? (Roger Ivie) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:46:59 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: "Original" IBM PC To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <m1QJ84S-000J3yC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > "...or 5.25" as they are sometimes called." You mean, by everyone else on = Indeed... I did wonder if the 5.25" refered to the diameter of the magneitc disk and that the square envelope was larger. However, I have just measured a 5.25" floppy disk with a ruler and the enveleope is 5.25" in each direction... So what 6" refers to is beyond me. (OK, you can call me cluelrdd for not knowing the size of the minifloppy disk, but at least I measurted it rather than making some silly comment...) > the planet, even in metric-based countries? "This computer has been in my = > family for generations. I inherited the computer from my grandfather and my= > uncle originally purchased it...." Generations? The machine was introduc= > ed in 1981....=20 > > Whatever this guy's smoking, it's pretty serious stuff. Maybe *that's* wor= > th $65K, for viable cuttings - not that I would know anything about that so= > rt of thing, really -- Ian =20 Not that I am going to bid on it, but I wonder just how 'original' this is... To me an origianl IBM PC implies a 16K-64K motherboard. And a 63W power supply I would also claim that the expansio cards were origianl IBM ones. I wouldn't object to _ectras_ being third-party, but there should be enough IBM boards, of the types produced when the machine was made, to have a working system (that is, video card and floppy controller at least). But if, for exmaple, an MDA card has been rpelaced at some point by a Hercules card and the originial IBM MDA card is not included with the machine then that is not 'original'. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:01:19 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <m1QJ8II-000J49C at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain > And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track Oh you will :-). I'll admit ot having lifted my fair share of tracks too. And damaged the odd bit of through-plating. > damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it is a > little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break in the > track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, but I don't You won;t normally break a track by just letting the iron rub across it. Are you sure this track break is not deliberate? Have you checked the components connected to each side of it and made sure they should be connected accordign to the schematics? -tony ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 17:13:26 -0700 From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> Subject: Re: rack mounting vintage gear To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4DC48EA6.1040902 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/5/11 11:21 PM, David Griffith wrote: > My story is that I scored a couple IMSAIs and Altairs with the catch that I had to take most of the contents of the shed. I'm still selling off that stuff. > And a good lot of stuff you got there, too. It would be nice to see if Morrow MICRONIX is in there somewhere. re. Fujitsu tape drive If someone wants one in the Bay Area, I have a complete unit I'm about to scrap. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 13:53:23 +0200 From: Wolfgang Eichberger <oe5ewl at gmail.com> Subject: Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTi=A171jPbG25ieck_NNJpTT4pg1JQ at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 same here for austria. regards, wolfgang ps: can pick up and store too, if someone needs this. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/5/6 Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se>: > 2011-05-06 18:24, Dave McGuire skrev: >> >> ?In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World Box", >> which have dried up significantly on the market in the past couple of years >> and are becoming much harder to find than they had been. >> > > It is definitely on the want list :) If anyone local to me (sweden that is) > has anything in a BA123 I wouldn't mind driving a bit and pay a bit for it. > > I've seen two in Sweden, on with GPX > > Regards, > Pontus. > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 06:26:01 -0700 From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <SNT129-W426FD9C62B93280592E265A3820 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:40:55 +0100 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > > On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so > > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not > > experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble > > desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks > > in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap > > Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one > > of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder > > wick (braid?). > > You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do need > a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've found the > holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend to be a > close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when you get all > the solder out. > > I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those > trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything > else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do so > quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the longer > you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to damage > something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes adding > fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first attempt removes > most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh solder helps > remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to side to break the > last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad across the gap to the > pin -- if you can! Hi I thought I'd mention that you always need to refill with solder if it misses getting it all out. Try heating both sides with two irons( tough with only two hands but I've gotten good with holding the pump and iron at one side with just the one hand. You need something to clamp the board. Also, when first melting the solder, make sure the pin is free and centered in the hole. I push the lead around with the iron and solder melted until it feels right( it is a feel thing ). It seems that no matter how well it is cleared, some small bridge seems to be there. Often this can be easily broken loose with a little pressure >from a small screwdriver. If that doesn't work, I put the iron on the lead with sideways pressure. Just as the lead pops, I remove the iron. The idea is to heat it just enough to make the solder start to soften but not so much as to melt it all and attach the lead someplace else. If this fails, I refill the hole with solder and try to adjust the lead again, while hot, to center it in the hole. As a last resort, I go to a friend house that manufactures burn-in boards. He has a solder pot. It is full and I just set the board on the brim of solder. I then just pull the part out. Do remember through all this, do not put pressure on the traces with the iron. Use a clean iron well tinned iron. You can't clear a partially cleared hole, you need to refill it and try again. Use bottled flux if you can get some, it helps to keep the solder surfaces fresh. Also, although many like solder wick, I'd done more damage with it then I'd like. I now only use the pump( not the small one with the yellow lever on the side. It is junk.The larger the better ). Dwight > > I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow tip > for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, either > -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:40:12 +0100 From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTik391Az42pGyL5Ef1FGwC2UDpSm6w at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A few points 1. If the device is dead, or cheap, just cut it off above the board, the board is rare/delicate the device commodity and replaceable, then each leg can be got out above board, even the solder sucking process can do this for you. least board heating 2. after sucking all three, I try to jiggle each lead to check its free/break any small amount of solder left, hole has to be reasonable clear 3. with a large iron add solder to get a blob on all three, pull device out and then suck holes after 4. similar to above but rapid sliding of iron over the pins to get all melted, then pull device 5. back in the old days there were iron tips around for multi pin melting, I never found them to be too good braid never worked that well for me Dave Caroline ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 08:33:01 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4DC503BD.29324.2A3F5E at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 7 May 2011 at 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one > pin at the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder > left holding each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the > pump or wick. So it seems to me that you would need to have the > solder in all 3 pin holes molten, all at the same time, to be able to > lift the component. > > What is the trick? Or is it just that my soldering iron is not good > (powerful) enough? If you're going to do much repair of PCBs, a temperature-controlled iron is pretty important. I use my venerable Weller TCP iron--a time- proven design that's still in production after, what, a half-century? However, there are less-expensive imported options. A clean and well-tinned iron is vital to this kind of work. If your iron isn't tinned, the molten solder can't conduct heat to the joint and you end up spending too much time trying to get a joint to melt. If you're using a solder pump, make sure it's the big one; the little ones don't seem to be worth much. It often helps to add solder to a joint before you use the pump to suck the solder out. Once you've sucked the solder out of a joint (you should be able to see daylight through the joint), wiggle the component gently to break the bond between the lead and the PCB trace formed by any remaining solder film and it should pop right out. Others have suggested cutting the component body off the leads to reduce heat conduction away from the joint being worked on--and that's a very good suggestion. If you still don't trust yourself, you may want to look into a low- temperature solution, such as Chip-Quick, which is basically a low- temperature fusible alloy that takes solder into solution. It's quite valuable duing SMT rework (I have yet to damage a PCB using it to replace surface mount ICs), but it might also work with traditional through-hole devices. http://www.chipquikinc.com/index.htm I've got lots of desoldering braid, but I tend to use it for soldering SMT packages, rather than desoldering them. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 09:14:25 -0700 From: John Robertson <pinball at telus.net> Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4DC56FE1.8010300 at telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my >> PDP11 so >> that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I >> am not >> experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of >> trouble >> desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB >> tracks >> in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap >> Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I >> have one >> of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder >> wick (braid?). > > You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do > need a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've > found the holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend > to be a close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when > you get all the solder out. > > I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those > trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything > else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do > so quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the > longer you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to > damage something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes > adding fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first > attempt removes most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh > solder helps remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to > side to break the last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad > across the gap to the pin -- if you can! > > I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow > tip for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, > either -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. > Also, once you have most of the solder removed from the feed through hole then you can push on the leg of the device with a small screwdriver (or the like) to try to release it from the side of the hole. Most device legs go in the hole on an angle, thus there is a tiny film of solder holding the leg to the side of the hole - sometimes on both the top and the bottom of the hole. You will feel or hear a tiny 'click' as the leg releases. Looks like this (somewhat crappy ASCII sketch) \ |\ | <--- Top of feed through hole | \ | | \ | | \| <--- Bottom of feed through hole \ <--- Leg of device So you are trying to break the top and bottom points by pushing the leg away from the side of the hole it is soldered to. If done correctly the device will then be easy to remove with only finger force - no prying with the screwdriver! Hope that makes sense! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:01:54 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1 at cs.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my > PDP11 so > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. As you are just trying to isolate the device for testing, sometimes it is easier to open the circuits elsewhere to achieve the isolation. For example, if the collector goes to an offboard transformer through a connector, then that lead is easily isolated; the base is probably fed by a resistor and lifting one lead of the resistor will isolate the base. With 2 of the 3 connections to the transistor open, it is isolated for testing purposes. TO-220 packages (3 leads with tab) can be very difficult to remove in one piece when - as Pete was mentioning - the holes are to small. Some manufacturers fail to increase the drill size for the wider TO-220 pins, they can be very tight with no room to wiggle the lead to break the final solder bridge. Sometimes slightly twisting the lead might do it. Sometimes you have to rock the device up and out of the holes with several heating cycles. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:58:36 +0100 From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <039201cc0ce0$651033b0$2f309b10$(a)ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 07 May 2011 18:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my > > PDP11 so > > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. > > As you are just trying to isolate the device for testing, sometimes it is easier to > open the circuits elsewhere to achieve the isolation. For example, if the > collector goes to an offboard transformer through a connector, then that lead > is easily isolated; the base is probably fed by a resistor and lifting one lead of > the resistor will isolate the base. With 2 of the 3 connections to the transistor > open, it is isolated for testing purposes. > > TO-220 packages (3 leads with tab) can be very difficult to remove in one > piece when - as Pete was mentioning - the holes are to small. Some > manufacturers fail to increase the drill size for the wider TO-220 pins, they > can be very tight with no room to wiggle the lead to break the final solder > bridge. Sometimes slightly twisting the lead might do it. Sometimes you have > to rock the device up and out of the holes with several heating cycles. It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. After sending my request I had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. The contacts look to be intact and even if they are not I will be able to use wires to reconnect the transistor pins. Thanks Rob ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:44:02 +0100 From: <arcarlini at iee.org> Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8730C5A328D94EE69B0E446A537D6F12 at ANTONIOPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already lifted a track. I'd stop now and practise on something that doesn't matter. Removing something like a 4 pin molex power connector from a dead (recent:-)) hard drive or similar is probably the sort of difficulty you want? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 16:59:36 -0400 From: Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> Subject: IBM 3480 help To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201105071659.37382.pat at computer-refuge.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not particularly helpful yet. The code the drive displays, immediately after start-up is "CHK 38". Pat -- Patrick Finnegan ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:51:31 +0000 From: vintagecoder at aol.com Subject: Re: IBM 3480 help To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <201105072151.p47LpZOo009529 at imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and > was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for > the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not particularly > helpful yet. > > The code the drive displays, immediately after start-up is "CHK 38". > > Pat That's out of my area but a quick check of the 3490 manuals I could find (couldn't find any relevant 3480 doc) does not look good. It says this is a "call your service rep" type of error- the CHK XX codes are apparently undocumented, at least for 3490s. If you can't find a 3480 guide on bitsavers (I just checked and couldn't find one) then this may or may not be worthwhile: http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/COMP/fcpa/tapes/m2488ce_prod-guide.pdf The only reason I suggest it is Fujitsu has some history of ripping off IBM (they did it with several OS versions and paid over 800 million USD in a settlement) and compatible-hardware manufacturers often try to keep the same error codes to make pubs easier (also by ripping off IBM), so maybe just maybe they are using the same codes as the 3480/90 tape subsystem. See appendix E. for the code listings. Nice piece of hardware btw. IBM's marketing materials say "The A22 control unit is priced at $65,430, and the B22 tape unit, which contains two tape drives, sells for $43,120." Good luck and post back if you find anything. If you don't get any answers >from the list or elsewhere (some good places to ask are on IBM-MAIN (you will need to subscribe or nobody will see your posts) and the yahoo hercules groups) email me offline and I'll see if I can find anything. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online Com ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz <ROT13> | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, books, and related doc, | | software and doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390. | | | | Wanted: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA and Solaris (Sparc). | | | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 15:10:13 -0700 From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> Subject: Re: IBM 3480 help To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4DC5C345.2090008 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/7/11 1:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and > was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for > the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not > particularly helpful yet. > There are about 8 books in the maint set, I'll see about getting them on line. It was also sold as the DEC TA90/E. I have a couple of volumes up under dec/magtape/ta90 ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 15:27:13 -0700 From: Geoffrey Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net> Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <C9EB1551.42C11%geoffr at zipcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 5/7/11 11:44 AM, "arcarlini at iee.org" <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote: > I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from > somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. > > You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already > lifted a track. > > I'd stop now and practise on something that doesn't matter. Removing > something like > a 4 pin molex power connector from a dead (recent:-)) hard drive or > similar is > probably the sort of difficulty you want? > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org I'd second that.. And use a good de-soldering tool. I use a Hakko 808 desoldering gun. My hot air rework station has an option for a desoldering attachment but the gun is serving me well. Just change the flux filter regularly and clean it out well. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 00:55:54 +0100 From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4DC5DC0A.9020207 at dunnington.plus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 07/05/2011 18:58, Rob Jarratt wrote: > It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. Ah, that ought to be doable with a 40W iron. When I described using my 100W Weller, I was thinking of bigger stuff with metal cans! > After sending my request I > had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it > for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. I hope those holes weren't plated-through ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:09:05 -0700 From: Mark Meiss <chaosotter76 at gmail.com> Subject: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTimPW3gPjqQPYcx52XiV1sfPdPDaSg at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hello to the cctalk list after a long absence! My wife and I own a small business specializing in vintage computers and electronics, especially 1980s microcomputers and game consoles. We?re in the process of moving from Bloomington, Indiana, out to California, and as part of that move, all of our inventory has to go! Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell everything as a single bulk lot. If you?re a fan of the technology or looking to start your own related business, this is a chance to acquire a mother lode of great old stuff. There are some real treasures included -- we hope that you?ll be able to give these computers a good home. Included are almost 100 systems (Apple, Atari, Commodore, TI, Sinclair, and more); thousands of disks, tapes, and cartridges; over a thousand books and magazines; electronics test equipment; and more. The complete list of stuff is available at http://bit.ly/izaYpw ( https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1JS2fRLSfeOoI27Otf-Zhkl1f84WNZQHwM-… ) I can be contacted by email at squunkin at gmail.com, or leave a message on our Google Voice number at (408) 676-6467<https://www.google.com/voice/b/2?pli=1#phones>and I?ll get back to you. (Serious offers only, please -- and feel free to pass the word along to any interested friends!) The sale will go to the best offer from the most reasonable person as quickly as we can manage it. Here are the basic terms and conditions: - We must sell as a single lot and cannot split off individual items. This is not negotiable -- I?m in California, and the inventory is stored in Indiana. (Obviously, we can?t handle returns either.) - This is a LOT of stuff; you will certainly need a U-Haul track or the like. (I?m not a pro at this, but I?d estimate a 20? truck.) - Once the sale has been arranged, I?ll make a trip back to Indiana to help you load up your truck: you?re not on your own. This makes it very important to me to establish a firm pick-up date. I can be flexible about the day of the week. - We cannot guarantee the condition of individual items and must sell as-is: most of this stuff is at least 20 years old. We have always tried to test new equipment as it arrives, and most of the media have been kept in a controlled environment. - Southern Indiana is humid and subject to flooding, and there is a chance that some items may have some moisture damage. If we discover in the process of loading that any items of particular interest to you are damaged, we can adjust the final sale price accordingly. Please let us know about those items in advance! - The list of items we?ve compiled is not exhaustive, but represents a large sample from our inventory database. There?s more. - We currently have around 3-4 dozen WYSE and Falco terminals available, most of which power on. Please let us know ASAP if you want them included -- otherwise, they?ll be heading to recycling on May 14th. - If you have any questions, please ask! I will try to respond to every enquiry with 24 hours. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 22:06:52 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> Subject: Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <E1QIvGe-0007Iu-6j at shell.xmission.com> In article <BANLkTimPW3gPjqQPYcx52XiV1sfPdPDaSg at mail.gmail.com>, Mark Meiss <chaosotter76 at gmail.com> writes: > Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell > everything as a single bulk lot. Good luck with that. Pretty much everything listed there is obtainable incrementally and few people are interested in buying huge lots of things when they could obtain them incrementally. I understand its what's easiest for you, but given the economy its probably better to cater to the buyer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:51:17 -0700 From: Mark Meiss <chaosotter76 at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTik=WNawSCVKv_FD5t3ybq2tVa6RXg at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, yes, I imagine that few people are, but we're hoping for exactly one, and here seems likelier a place than most. (Not to mention that Bloomington isn't so far from Dayton, and the Hamvention is coming right up in a few weeks.) We're not looking for top dollar (the move is a good move), but a chance to try to transfer these things en masse to somebody with an understanding of what they are -- hence the desire to avoid eBay if possible. On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article <BANLkTimPW3gPjqQPYcx52XiV1sfPdPDaSg at mail.gmail.com>, > Mark Meiss <chaosotter76 at gmail.com> writes: > > > Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell > > everything as a single bulk lot. > > Good luck with that. > > Pretty much everything listed there is obtainable incrementally and > few people are interested in buying huge lots of things when they > could obtain them incrementally. > > I understand its what's easiest for you, but given the economy its > probably better to cater to the buyer. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:47:47 +0100 From: <arcarlini at iee.org> Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <865E15B734024AA98E807E829C8F7704 at ANTONIOPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have > to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) I've lifted my fair share of tracks (possibly more, just natural greed I guess). Once or twice I've had to put down wire to make up for my clumsiness, although mostly I've lifted tracks on scrap that I don't care about (I just wanted whatever component it might have been). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:57:39 +0100 From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <03ed01cc0d66$5f623a40$1e26aec0$(a)ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 08 May 2011 10:48 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have > > to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) > > I've lifted my fair share of tracks (possibly more, just natural greed I guess). > > Once or twice I've had to put down wire to make up for my clumsiness, > although mostly I've lifted tracks on scrap that I don't care about (I just wanted > whatever component it might have been). > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it is a little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break in the track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, but I don't recall that happening, and the break seems too wide for the size of bit I was using. Is it possible there might have been a latent track defect that the heat from the iron revealed? Regards Rob ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 08:05:54 -0400 From: "Andrew Lynch" <lynchaj at yahoo.com> Subject: S-100 EPROM boards are here! To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6B4661ED29914CC8B690BC223940C2F3 at andrewdesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi! The S-100 EPROM PCBs have arrived! These are updated respins of the S-100 EPROM board from last summer with minor corrections and improvements. The S-100 EPROM board supports a wide variety of EPROMs, EEPROMs, FLASH memories, and Static RAMs in 8 or 16 bit modes. It supports many common 28 pin and 32 pin chips. More information is available at John's S100computers.com website here: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm The board is $20 plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! There are plenty of PCBs so even if you weren't on the waiting list there should be plenty to go around. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I have some S-100 4MB SRAM boards, S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard interface boards, and S-100 Serial IO boards left too in case you'd like to get some of those and save on shipping. ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 09:37:15 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4DC6644B.215.F1880 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 8 May 2011 at 10:57, Rob Jarratt wrote: > And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track > damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it > is a little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break > in the track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, > but I don't recall that happening, and the break seems too wide for > the size of bit I was using. Is it possible there might have been a > latent track defect that the heat from the iron revealed? Take a close look at the gap. It's not unusual to see board revisions done this way--just a bit of tape on the master negatives to do a cut in a trace. If the edges of the break look smooth and straight under magnification, you most likely have your answer. Do not attempt to bridge gaps such as this! --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 12:43:59 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1105081242480.23678 at sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Roger Ivie <rivie at ridgenet.net> Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.1105081301490.1826 at stench.no.domain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sun, 8 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: > > Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was > wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said > processors. I'm pretty certain there used to be one. Osprey, IIRC, built around a J-11. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net End of cctech Digest, Vol 93, Issue 10 **************************************

14 years

latin stuff

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

Si des purgamentum purgamentum accipietis Noli turbare cuium simia virgas tonitrui Si duo sunt in una camera turpis vento facit, qui sciunt et feci -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

14 years

MARCH computer history library

by evan＠snarc.net

MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists) will debut part of its vast library of computer history at the VCF East this weekend. The collection includes full runs of the first few years of Byte, Compute, Creative Computing, Dr. Dobb's Journal, SCCS Interface, Interface Age, Kilobaud, and more. We also have the early years of the People's Computer Company newsletter, anthologies of the early years of the West Coast Computer Faire, a variety of machine-specific publications, and early issues of various user group newsletters (some on CD). Not to mention * hundreds * of computer books (and related topics) from the 1940s-1980s and zillions of manuals / user guides. Our full library will be organized later this year. It will be a reading / research library, not a lending library, except by special permission.

14 years

Final reminder -- VCF East 7.0

by evan＠snarc.net

One last reminder .... only five days until the Vintage Computer Festival East 7.0 ..... bring your kids, they get in for free! http://www.vintage.org/2011/east http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7

14 years

Thinning the Herd (part2)

by ittybittybytes＠gmail.com

Thanks everybody for the heartwarming responses,,,and the corresponding requests for "first dibs" on much of the collectibles I will be parting with. :-) I really did not fathom, just how much stuff I have. When you get around to trying to inventory it, a project I started and abandoned several times over the lat few years. It seems a bit overwhelming. Add to the fact that much of the stuff that I thought was "here" or "there" was not in the spot I remember it being. This was no doubt to my dad moving stuff around, forgetting he did, and not telling anybody where he put it. Fortunately, I do not think he threw any hardware away, but I'm afraid some documentation may be lost, or put in an area where it was exposed and damaged by the elements, but It will take a lot more "digging" through literally piles of equipment to find stuff. Something I am not looking forward to in the HOT arizona summers. I have decided to tackle this effort by dealing with Items by brand name and since I have a lot of DEC stuff, it will go first, then move on to HP, then IBM, then the odd stuff. So far I have counted close to 200-250 various DEC qbus boards, some VAX, some PDP. More importantly I have about a dozen BA11/BA22 chassis, a few BA123 , a few other BA4xx chassis. Some stuff I will be selling on Ebay, but I would prefer to sell some of my pdp stuff through the list, and to cut down the amount of shipping I would have to do, I would like to sell a few "complete" pdps in the smaller chassis, I have more than a few lsi-11/2, 11/23 and 11/73 with enough peripheral boards and memory for at least 4-5 units, maybe more. On some of the chasis, like a BA11-M they would be sans any actual disk, others would have a rd OR rx50 drive. If no drive they would at least have the qbus board. Whatever boards and odd things I would have left over would go to anyone who will throw a few dollars my way. Almost all the pdp's can be shipped via UPS, except the BA123. My UniBUS machine, the 11/04 is mounted in the standard dec pdp full-height rack with a 3rd party RX02 floppy and a unique TS07 upright reel-to-reel. The 11/04 works, the RX02 gave a lot of read errors (dirt or dust most likely) and the TV07 is a "project" ,not working, but is complete, the whole system, I'm afraid it would need to be freighted, as I would like, if possible, sell it in one piece. I will also be selling a ISI PDP-MAC, that's a M68K processor on a Qbus quad height board. I think this one has the 10Mhz and about 1MB of memory on board (although I'm not real sure as the cards contained between 128k to 1MB on board) expandable to 4mb) with on board MACSBUG 1.0 firmware, two serial ports and a parallel port, I will use most any qbus peripheral card made for the pdp/vax. I was trying to find a Unix prom that would allow it to run 4.2 BSD and maybe even Netbsd (looking through the M68k source code, the qbus hooks are there!) I do not know what OS will run using the MACSBUG firmware. So would there be interest in doing this? I am not going to set a firm price but more of a "make offer" type of deal (be generous as it goes to the widow and orphan fun...mom) but may set a reserve on some things. For someone who doesn't have a pdp, but was looking for one, or wants to get started with a small one, here's your chance. Be prepared to make your own cables, though, as I cannot find the boxes of DEC cables I once had, and you will need to configure it yourself. Some cards may require you to move a few dip switches or set a few jumpers. I know more than a few have asked for certain things and I'm on it, but it may take time to dig through and find stuff. Cheers Tom P

14 years

pdp11 CPU on S100 board?

by vintagecoder＠aol.com

>On Mon May 9 14:57:10 2011 bob at jfcl.com wrote >> Jerome Fine (jhfinedp3k at compsys.to) wrote: >>How would device drivers designed for a Qbus or Unibus do disk I/O? >> How would serial ports to a terminal operate? > You could, if you had the right bits and knew enough about RT11, just > write new device drivers for RT11 and port it to S100 hardware. I'm sure > there are people with enough knowledge to do that, but RT11 is _not free_. > What hobbyists do in their garage is one thing, but any commercial > endeavor would have to be careful about putting their name on that. Wouldn't it be possible to sell a kit containing the complete board and enclosure, power supply etc. and device drivers, but *not* the OS? I think most hobbyists wouldn't have a problem getting RT11/RSX whatever on their own using the hobbyist license and installing it themselves. The hardware part (and the device drivers) is what most people can't do. I think a complete kit less the OS is viable and fair to all parties. I would like to see more (any!) choices in that area, new retro hardware ready for vintage but readily available OS.

14 years

Desoldering a chopper transistor

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder wick (braid?). I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly with the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any solder not matter what I do. One of the pins, however, goes onto a track that is more like a large area of metal and the iron does not even seem to melt the solder there. The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one pin at the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder left holding each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the pump or wick. So it seems to me that you would need to have the solder in all 3 pin holes molten, all at the same time, to be able to lift the component. What is the trick? Or is it just that my soldering iron is not good (powerful) enough? Thanks Rob

14 years

Vintage Computer Festival East: InfoAge Science Center, Wall Township, New Jersey

by vintagecoder＠aol.com

I saw this online and figure it's ok to cross-post here since it's public information. I have no knowledge or involvement in this but thought it might be relevant for the group. If this kind of post is unwelcome, please let me know. ---------------- WHO: You! WHAT: VCF East 7.0 WHERE: InfoAge Science Center, Wall Township, New Jersey WHEN: May 14-15 WHY: Vintage computers! The Vintage Computer Festival East returns on May 14-15 at the InfoAge Science Center, 2201 Marconi Rd., Wall Township, New Jersey, 07719. ? This year's event, VCF East 7.0, is expected to be our largest ever on the east coast. There will be more than 20 hands-on exhibits, six lectures, and two hands-on classes. ?Also planned are a book sale, consignment sale, food, live restoration of an IBM mainframe from 1965, museum tours, prizes, and even a reading of epic technology poetry. The hours are Saturday 10am-7pm and Sunday 10am-5pm. ?Lectures and classes are scheduled for the mornings and the exhibit hall is scheduled for the afternoons. ?Tickets are just $10/day, $15/weekend, and free for ages 17 and younger. ?Parking is free. Our classes are limited to just 10 people each. ?A few spots are still available for a $40 pre-registration. Full details are posted at http://www.vintage.org/2011/east and http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7 or contact VCF East producer Evan Koblentz at evan at snarc.net or (646) 546-9999. Tickets are sold at the gate. ?Class registration is at http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/workshop.php. VCF East 7.0 is sponsored by: - MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists) -- http://www.midatlanticretro.org - VintageTech -- http://www.vintagetech.com - InfoAge Science Center -- http://www.infoage.org

14 years

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test-drb May 2011