> From: Henk Gooijen
> the M7859 is sort of a UNIBUS device. The (front panel) console only
> communicates with the M7859.
Not quite; it does _mostly_ 'do its thing' over the UNIBUS, but there are
also two special lines carried across the DD11-P backplane to the CPU, 'Halt
Request' and 'Halt Grant' (which is why it has to be in the same backplane as
the CPU); more here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer%27s_Console
> I cannot remember whether a demux for the displays is on the console
> PCB, or on the M7859.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'demux', but... the interface between
the board and console is i) 3 bits of digit, and ii) 6 individual select
lines. Code in the micro on the M7859 sends one digit at a time down the 3
'digit' lines, along with the appropriate 'select' line.
> If you get 000000 on the dsipaly and when halted it shows 173066 I
> presume it is looping.
Well, I haven't looked at the M9312 ROM code, but if it's anything like the
M9301 code (which I have dumped and disassembled), looping in the ROM at
173066 is not necessarily bad.
There is a listing of some of the ROM code on BitSavers:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/unibus/K-SP-M9312-0-5_Aug78.pdf
but it doesn't seem to cover the stuff at 173000 (which is where the CPU
starts running on power-on) - or maybe I just didn't study the listings
carefully enough.
> If it loops, it will repeatedly read from a device address which is
> most likely the CSR of the boot device.
Depends on the switch settings on the M9312. If it's set to boot, if the
device is there, yes; otherwise it would get a NXM fault. If it's set to go
into the console mode, it's probably trying to read characters (commands)
>from the console.
Noel
> Aaron Jackson
> if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the
> diagnostics, it fails.
My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?
(I need one for my own use, plus I want to look at the source, to help
with this.)
Noel
> From: Henk Gooijen
A few comments to you about Henk's points:
> Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the console),
> slot number 1 is at the right side.
That's for the 10-1/2" box; the 5-1/4" is different. Which is this?
> Each slot has 6 positions. Position A is at the rear side, followed by
> B thru F. Position F is thus at the front side.
I prefer to say that connector A is at the right, when facing the component
side of a hex-wide card which has the handles at the top, and the contact
fingers at the bottom.
(Make doubly sure you never plug a card in backwards! It will almost
certainly kill the card. In theory they are keyed so you can't, but idiots
like me have been known to do it! :-)
> The 4 copper "jumper" traces should be facing the next higher-numbered
> slot.
I.e. on the so-called 'solder' side of the card, not the 'component' side.
(All the cards face the same way.)
> When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers.
> If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an
> issue with the console itself, or the M7859.
The M7859's are, for some reason, particularly prone to failures. About half
the ones I've seen weren't working at first. There's no one chip that seems
to be the usual suspect, I've seen several different failure modes.
> From: Jerry Weiss
And the same for Jerry...
> It won't seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped
> knuckles remember.
Nope, they go in quite fine the wrong way around; I just checked.
Make sure they are in the right connector (D) and the right way around; I
haven't checked to see if damage is likely to result on an error - does
anyone know offhand?
> Check the cable orientation.
Note that one DEC manual (the KY11-LB Maintenance Manual) shows the wrong
orientation! See here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer%27s_Console
at "Cable Connection and Documentation Error" for more.
> I believe the cabling for the M7859 is a little different between the two
The /34 has two narrow 'maintainence' cables, the /04 only one. But you can
ignore these if you're not using the maintenance mode on the front console,
and only plug in the wide cable.
Noel
> From: John Welch
> Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I
> remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular
> wire
Yeah; you can use the G7273 as a 'crib', since it has the NPG jumper on it.
That jumper goes from CA1 to CB1: component side, third connector (counting
>from the A connector), first and second pins (again counting from the A
connector end). A lot of the slots will still have their jumpers in, which
is how you can confirm you're looking at the right pins; look for slots
without them.
> I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.
Yeah, the M7263 is the KD11-D CPU, the M7847's are MS11-E's (one of them will
be useful as a first-stage debug for the 11/34, once you've verified, in the
-11/04, that they work - the M7891 MS11-L is rare and valuable, I'd rather not
use that until everything up to that point in the -11/34 is known working -
you could try pulling the two M7847's from the -11/04 and try plugging in the
M7891, to verify that it's sort of OK).
> I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
> for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions?
As always, first pull all the boards and check the power supply (if it's been
a long time since it was last powered on, re-form the electrolytics in the
power supply first, before powering it on), then put in the _minimal_ set of
boards and get those working.
> I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to
> Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on
> the 11/04.
> I have six '0' digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066.
> Looks like things are moving.
Yup, that's working. Now you have a working machine, you can board-swap in
>from the -11/34 to check other boards out. Major, major help!!
The first thing I'd try would be the M7859, KY11-LB, from the -11/34 over
here. If it doesn't work in the -11/04 (with only that board changed), i)
you've isolated the problem, and ii) you can probably use the one from the
-11/04 to get the -11/34 working (unless there's something _else_ broken in
the -11/34 as well).
NOTE: Don't plug the good one from the -11/04 into the -11/34 - or do
anything else with the -11/34 - until you've checked the voltages in the
-11/34!!!
If the M7859, KY11-LB from the -11/34 _does_ work in the -11/04, time to keep
looking. The console itself is so dumb it's unlikely to be the problem, but
you never know; might we worth swapping. I'm having a hard time seeing what
problems in the /34 CPU, etc could cause the symptoms you're seeing - are
they still there with only the absolute minimal board set?
Noel
> From: John Welch
> Any suggestions as to what to try first?
I would _definitely_ start by pulling _all_ the cards you can, to get down to
the simplest possible configuration. Once that works, start adding things
back in, one at a time.
If that configuration doesn't work, first try the obvious things (clean and
re-seat, check voltages, etc). If that doesn't get it running, it's time for
a oscilloscope or logic analyzer. (We can help you through that.)
So I'd start with the CPU (M8266/M8265), front-terminator/bootstrap ROM
(M9312), the front console card (M7859), and rear-terminator (M9302) (which
you need for grant turnaround, see next paragraph). That's it.
IIRC, the /34 will complain if the bus grant chain is not complete (I really
need to look at the prints/ucode to understand why this is so - other -11's
will run basic functionality fine with an interrupted grant chain), so plug in
grant jumpers in every unused slot. Also, check the backplane, to see which
slots have had their NPG jumpers pulled, and either i) use a G7273 jumper (the
dual boards which contain an NPG jumper as well as the BR jumpers) in those
slots, or replace the jumpers.
I _think_ the machine will be OK without any memory, but I don't have a
running 11/34 to test that on. (Only my /04 is running at the moment.) I can
plug my /34 cards in and try it, if that will help. But maybe someone else
knows. So maybe you'd have to add a memory card, but that would _definitely_
be the biggest configuration I'd try until the basic machine is working.
You can examine the MMU registers in the CPU to check that the bus/console etc
are working - first read, then write. And IIRC the CPU general registers are
accessible from the bus too - I know they are in the -11/04 (which uses the
same front console).
Noel
I am trying to wire 3270 support into the DPS8/M emulator.
Multics supports 3270 via a bisync connection to the 3270 controller.
Multics sends commands to the Front End Network processor, which
(originally) passed the commands down the bisync line to the 3270.
I have a running Multics and running 3270 display emulators using tn3270
(3270 over telnet), so I need to write the code that maps the Multics
commands into 3270 controller commands (and vice versa) and manages the
telnet connections to the 3270 display emulators and maps the tn3270
traffic into 3270 controllers.
I don't need to actually implement the bisync communications; the
controller emulator will be running inside the FNP emulator, but I need to
express controller responses to Multics in the bisync format, as Multics is
expecting that the responses arrived over a bisync connection.
The problem is that I have no idea how the 3270 controllers worked; I've
looked through the bitsavers collection; those documents are largely
concerned with the displays and tend to treat the controllers as 'black
boxes' that just do the right thing.
So I am seeking pointers to documentation that will give me a better grasp
of the controller functionality and/or discussions with someone who knows
how they work.....
Thanks,
-- Charles
I've seen rust and dust, but there's an old vaxstation II at Goodwill
Computers in Austin right now (very cheap, anyone welcome to buy it and get
it off my mind) but as most things, I checked out the back and see some
circles of white corrosion on the back where the cards? are contacting the
case.
I don't really have room or time but I don't own anything that uses QBUS or
is almost related to some of the neat iron some of you all collect (I've
mostly collected way too many home computer history items).
Anyway, what is that type of white corrosion on metal? Would one probably
assume this means any bus would be corroded and this wouldn't be a computer
for the faint of heart hobbyist? I've only seen that maybe from batteries
but it's in an unusual place and pattern (I think).
Update:
This is the map of the machine:
........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M8266----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
........................ 2 [M8265----------------] ....................
........................ 3 [M9312] [M7859--------] ....................
........................ 4 [M7891----------------] ....................
........................ 5 [M7762----------------] ....................
........................ 6???????? [M7860--------] ....................
........................ 7 [M7840----------------] ....................
........................ 8???????????? GNT ....................
........................ 9 [M9302] [M7856--------] ....................
........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF ....................
Reseating the ribbon cable on the M7859 changed the display.? I have
replaced the M7840 with a G7273.
Now when I power on it says (dim)0, (bright)0, blank, (dim)0, blank, blank.
I have reseated the M7859, I don't think I have another one.
Maybe I should hit it with a vacuum.
I had forgotten about needing to cut a wire for DMA.? Can you give me a
refresher on how to tell which slots are cut?? I remember having to turn
the chassis over and looking for a particular wire but that was >15
years ago.
On 12/8/2017 3:17 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Van: John Welch via cctech
> Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2017 21:25
> Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: Revive 11/34
>
>
>
> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
>
> Back/Fans [M8266--------]? Front of machine where keypad is.
>
>??????????? [M8265--------]
>
>??????????? [M9312] [M7859]
>
>??????????? [M7762--------]
>
>??????????? [OPEN]? [M7860]
>
>??????????? [M7840--------]
>
>??????????? Bus grant in third from front slot
>
>??????????? [M9302] [M7856]
> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running
> XP&Hyperterminal
>
> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered
> off, then back on, and now it says '5'
>
> Any suggestions as to what to try first?? I may have the bus grant in
> backwards.? I have other boards I can try.
>
> Sincerely,
> John Welch
> :qw
>
>
>
>
>
> It is not completely clear (to me) how the modules are installed in the
>
> backplane. Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the
>
> console), slot number 1 is at the right side. Each slot has 6 positions.
>
> Position A is at the rear side, followed by B thru F. Position F is
>
> thus at the front side.
>
> There is no confusion about the first 4 slots.
>
>
>
> Slot 1 and 2 hold the 11/34A processor boards, with M8266 in slot 1,
>
> and M8265 in slot 2.
>
> Slot 3, positions A and B has the M9312 bootstrap/terminator board,
>
> and slot3, positions C thru F has the M7859 KY11-LB programmer's console
>
> interface board.
>
> Slot 4 holds the RL11 interface. This module does "DMA", so the NPR
>
> jumper must be cut (open) on the backplane.
>
> Slot 5 has an SPC in positions C thru F. I had to look it up; it is the
>
> DR11-C.
>
>
>
> We are up to slot 6. Now things get "interesting" ... is that M7840 a
typo?
>
> The field guide says that this is a KE11-B Extended Arithmetic Element.
>
> I do not know that board, is it "hex" or "quad"?
>
> Not sure that board belongs there ... and if it is quad, I assume it has
>
> to be in positions C thru F. I would suggest to pull this module, and
>
> check the NPR wire presence on the backplane. You need a G727A or G7273
>
> in this slot when the M7840 is removed.
>
>
>
> If you are not skipping slots (see below), we are now at slot 7. There
>
> is probably a G727A grant continuity card (aka "knockle buster") in
>
> position D. That would be OK, but if the NPR jumper is cut on the
>
> backplane, you would need a G7273 continuity and NPR card in positions
>
> C - D. It is easy to have the G727 put in wrong. The 4 copper "jumper"
>
> traces should be facing the next higher-numbered slot.
>
>
>
> Then you say that the next slot has the M9202 (in position A - B) and
>
> the M7856 (SLU and RTC) in positions C thru F.
> The M9202 connects two system units (backplanes). So, what is the next
>
> backplane?? Or do you have the M9202 in slot 8 and slot 9, positions
>
> A - B?? I have never seen that ...
>
>
>
> I am missing one slot. The 11/34 backplane has 9 slots.
>
>
>
> When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers.
>
> If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an
>
> issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The 6 digits of the display
>
> are multiplexed. Maybe the connection cable between the console and the
>
> M7859 - damaged/knicked? It is worth checking out the simpler things
first.
>
>
>
> Henk.
--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw
> From: Aaron Jackson
> Most of the tests now look something like this:
> ...
> SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
> EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
> TARGET SECTOR=17.
I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using?
Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the
sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the
RX02.
Noel
Greetings from Brazil :)
Just got a Tandy 1000 SX. Nice shape, but it is missing the ESC and F10
keys. Would someone have a complete assembly (switch + caps) to sell,
shipping to Brazil incuided?
I'd also be interested in the monitor cable and one or two joysticks.
Thanks!
Alexandre
http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
