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101090 discussions

Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20

by paulp1＠gmail.com

> From: Noel C. > Was the Computer History Wiki thing of any use? Yes. It answered a little of what I was wondering about. It mentioned that there is a cache of page table entries. I was wondering how much delay the KT-11B introduces. > > Does anyone know if schematics for it were included in the auction? > > If the schematics are available, are there plans to get onto bitsavers? > The answers apparently are yes, and yes - although there are two parts to the prints (the KT11-B itself, and the KA11 changes), and it seems that unfortunately there's (at least) one page missing from the 'KA11 changes' part. Oh well. There is still the actual implementation of the KA11 changes that can be reverse engineered if someone is so inclined. I'm just glad the winner of the auction is willing to make available the information they did get.

10 years, 1 month

X server for original PC (8088/8086)

by seefriek＠gmail.com

From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote: >> >> Before anyone gets too excited about the blistering speed of the 60 >> MHz TMS34010, ... However, since it has a >> graphics-optimized instruction set, it was still able to do some >> things noticeably faster than the 16 MHz 80186 would have. Price/performance for the tms34010 was terrible; it was somewhat faster at graphics (bit-oriented) ops than an 80186 (or other contemporary processor), but it was several times more expensive. TI tried to sell around that by claiming it was a complete general purpose processor in addition to graphics processor so you could build a whole system using the tms34010 as the brains. Unfortunately, if you actually did that, you found that it could manage kbd/mouse/net *or* do graphics, but not really both. It was also integer-only, and had a slow, 16-bit memory interface that killed performance unless you used expensive VRAMs (this was before VGA made VRAM cheap). And TIGA never really took off. Bonus: the development tools were pretty awful. One of the weirder C compilers I've used. Intel came up with the i82786 around the same time that was cheaper, and it looked like you could cook up a cheap 80186+82786 X Term setup that would be competitive. However, I never saw a product like that, just a couple of PC/AT plugin cards (Belltech BLIT). > Somewhere I have a thing badged 'Princeton Ultra-X'...It uses an 80188 for I/O > (including 10Mbps ethernet). The Xserver is in EPROMs and appears to run on > the TMS34010 graphics processor. Yup...I worked for the company that designed those. Good times (really...I learned a *lot* about a lot of things), but glad I was an ops guy and not an engineer or developer. There were probably 20 other shops making X Terminals at the same time, 'cause that was the future. I recall having stacks to play with because the market for them evaporated far sooner than marketing predicted. KJ

10 years, 1 month

cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 20

by seefriek＠gmail.com

From: Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> > > I tend to think that X11 over serial would be nothing short of nightmarish. > I ran X over an ISDN 64K link with 19.2Kbps backup for years in the late 80s/early 90s, and it was pleasantly usable enough to be my daily remote work access. Admittedly, Framemaker was a bit of a pig over it, and we weren't web browsing pages filled with 500KB of JS and images. KJ

10 years, 1 month

What is the KH11-A? (was Re: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > http://gunkies.org/wiki/KA11_CPU Interesting stuff on the KT11, but tangentally, I've been going over my pile of parts (that I've described a few times over the years) from an 11/20 I pulled from the dumpster at work 30 years ago. I finally got around to photographing the module handles and inventorying many of the boards and I've learned a thing or two and have generated a question or two. First, the manufacture date for most of the parts is in 1972. The front panel says "11/20", so that all jibes. I appear to have a CPU (more below), an M7800 DL-11 console interface (not the older multi-board KL-11), a lot of MM-11 4K core sets, and a happy surprise (again, more below) and not much else from that extraction (no bootstrap card, for example, or peripheral adapters). Second, many/most of the CPU modules are -YA variants, and the "PDP-11 Field Guide" mentions that they would be part of a KH11-A. About the only description I can find for what that is, is a single mention (in PDP-11_PeripheralsHbk_1973.pdf) of the "large-system capability option" related to the DT03-F Unibus switch requirements. Anyone know what this is? I'm reasonably certain it doesn't matter for my needs, but I'm curious. Third, the happy surprise is a full set of boards for a KE11-A. I have been sniffing around for a KE11-B (single-board version), and now, I don't need to (as long as this one works or can be repaired). This excellent for me since my goal all along has been to fire up enough hardware for Warren Toomey's reconstruction of ~1972 UNIX (v1 kernal plus v2 utilities). Yes, I know I can run that on SIMH (I have), even wrapped up in a Docker (I will), but I've wanted to run it on the real hardware for 11 years and I'm one step closer. I have a RK11-D that works, and an RK11-C that will likely require much attention (never tried to use it), so the only thing I'm really missing (besides enough time to repair/debug all of this) is something to emulate an RF11 for the swap disk. I'm now doubly sad that I lost my Diablo 30/RK03 in a flood 25 years ago, but I'll be functional with an RK05 or two. Fourth - I don't think I got the H720 power supplies with this (or the fans) - that was what I think was removed prior to this unit hitting the dumpster. I may have the G772 power cards (and then again, I may not), but those wouldn't be hard to reproduce. I am entirely satisfied with modernish switching supplies, but I see the H720 puts out about 15A of +5V and -15V, plus -22V for the core and +8V for the front panel bulbs. The bulb voltage is probably no big deal to come up with, but -22V is a bit of an oddball. I'm also willing to forego 100% core in favor of MOS memory, including any modern repros that come out in the next year or two. To start, finding even one H720 to run the CPU box (I have 2 more boxes for the rest of the memory) would be enough to get going. So... for now, as I continue to pull the parts together, my real question is, what is a KH11-A? Thanks for any enlightenment. -ethan

10 years, 1 month

What is the KH11-A? (was Re: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20)

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> I recall reading _somewhere_ about some early PDP-11 memory management > thing used on early PDP-11 Unix that supported the KE11 ... by having a > small window that allowed user code access to the KE11. ... > Does this ring any bells for anyone? Never mind - found it, it was in "Odd Comments and Strange Doings in Unix": https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/odd.html The memory management thing in question was the KS11; I looked, but could not find anything about it. Does anyone know of anything? Noel

10 years, 1 month

What is the KH11-A? (was Re: Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20)

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Ethan Dicks > Second, many/most of the CPU modules are -YA variants, and the "PDP-11 > Field Guide" mentions that they would be part of a KH11-A. About the > only description I can find for what that is, is a single mention .. > of the "large-system capability option" related to the DT03-F Unibus > switch requirements. Anyone know what this is? I've been told that it's a revision to the CPU timings to reduce NPR latency, although I have no details; I had previously looked online, and was not able to locate anything about it. > a full set of boards for a KE11-A. I have been sniffing around for a > KE11-B (single-board version), and now, I don't need to (as long as > this one works or can be repaired). Doesn't it need a custom backplane too? Do you have that? > my goal all along has been to fire up enough hardware for Warren > Toomey's reconstruction of ~1972 UNIX Maybe someone here can scratch a mental itch for me; I recall reading _somewhere_ about some early PDP-11 memory management thing used on early PDP-11 Unix that supported the KE11 (which is a memory-mapped device) by having a small window that allowed user code access to the KE11. IIRC, it was a DEC thing, not something home-rolled at Bell. Does this ring any bells for anyone? Noel

10 years, 1 month

Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Ethan Dicks > Any updates on this? I have a much-annotated copy of the list, and had reached out to Megan about sending it to her, but I fell into a hole, and never got to it. Maybe I should check out all my changes, and get moving on that. One question: I was using the list to sort through all the stuff that showed up on eBait, so I wound up adding a bunch of VAX M-series boards, on the basis that if the listing didn't include a photo (so that one could see that it was a so-called 'super hex' board (i.e. deeper than usual), it was impossible to tell them from PDP-11 M-series boards. (And IIRC the /730 boards are the same length as PDP-11 boards?) Was that a good call, or should I have left them out? (I left out all PDP-8 boards, since they are already in another list.) Noel

10 years, 1 month

Differences between the PDP-11/15 and PDP-11/20

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Paul Popelka > Thanks for posting that the KT-11B documentation is available. Sure. Was the Computer History Wiki thing of any use? > Does anyone know if schematics for it were included in the auction? > ... > If the schematics are available, are there plans to get onto bitsavers? The answers apparently are yes, and yes - although there are two parts to the prints (the KT11-B itself, and the KA11 changes), and it seems that unfortunately there's (at least) one page missing from the 'KA11 changes' part. Noel

10 years, 1 month

Is there an authoritative copy of the PDP 11 Field Guide?

by trenchdweller＠att.net

blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white !important; } I've been using Megan Gentry's copy at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ but that seems to have disappeared recently.There seem to be several other copies available with different update dates. Which copy of this do other people use?Thanks,Paul

10 years, 1 month

FTGH: miscellaneous old stuff

by mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG

I've got a bunch of old stuff I want to get rid of. Much of it is squarely on-topic here; most of the rest is tangentially on-topic, and I hope the remainder can be forgiven. All this stuff is in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and is yours if you come pick it up. In theory, I could ship, but I suck at actually getting stuff shipped. Except as noted, these are functionality unknown. I don't _think_ any of these have been robbed for parts, but it's possible (least unlikely for the vacuum-tube devices). Details may be incorrect; at least two human-layer copies were involved in everything here and I'm tired, so miscopying is not at all out of the question. In no particular order: Two TK50 tape drives. These are just the drives, no controller cards or enclosures. One mechanical (not even electromech) typewriter. Aside from generic interest in such things, the major reason people here might care about it is that it has the C= logo prominently visible on it. (Not just a sticker; if this is an aftermarket addon, it is a very well-done one.) One arc-welding helmet. It is made of fibreglass and is somewhat cracked, but still entirely functional. Four SparQ 1.0 tapes. Contents unknown. A power supply. It is marked as a Sun 300-1047-05; it is Zytec-branded, marked as a ZYRISE 925W unit, Zytec part number 22903110. It is marked as being limited to 150A on +5V, 15A each on -5.2V and +12V, and 10A on -12V; the +12V is also marked "25A PK FOR 20 SEC". But it is marked as max total power 925W, and needing 60CFM forced air cooling. The connector is nothing I recognize; it's the kind of custom thing I'd expect for a PS that can push 150A.... One HP 211A, a SQUARE WAVE GENERATOR, serial #2707. This is test gear >from the vacuum tube era. Two HP 202A LOW FREQUENCY FUNCTION GENERATORs. Based on the controls, these are capable of sine, triangle, and square waves from, IIRC, about .01Hz to something like 1200Hz. These also date from the vacuum tube era. An "ALLEN B DUMONT LABORATORIES" oscilliscope, model 304 H, serial 5484. An HP 400D vacuum-tube voltmeter. A Beckman/Berkeley model 5230 "UNIVERSAL EPUT? AND TIMER", whatever that is. The most visually notable feature is that it has four display columns with ten digit positions in each one, presumably with a lamp behind each position. Various magnetic media. Figuring most prominently are QIC tapes, TK50s, and 5?" floppies. Some of the "TK50"s might actually be some other tape in the same form factor, but if I had to guess I would guess not. Most/all of the tapes are in plastic cases; the floppies have paper jackets and/or cardboard boxes around them. Contents unknown, though at least some have labels. For the labeled media, I hope to get the labels transcribed sometime over the next week or so. If/when I do that I'll post the results. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

10 years, 1 month

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