Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued
computer is as much as buying one of the same model?
To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown
out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac
errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus
PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with
an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard
(more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault.
Checking around, I see that the most common price for a Mac+ system
board is $15 + shipping. As a last check, I call Intragate
(intramac(a)aol.com), who has had good prices in the past, to find out
their price. It turns our that they won't even quote me a price for
the MB as they can get me an entire Mac+ system for $20.
This has really left me in a quandry as to what to do. I really don't
want to buy *another* one as I already have a working Mac Plus. Besides,
what would I then do with *this one*? I suppose I could keep it for
parts, but that seems a bit of a waste too.
Any suggestions? Anyone with a spare set of Mac+ ROMs?
Thanks in advance... <<<John>>>
P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too?
<Would a VS3100/30 work for you? I don't know how you would then
<install on the other machines, though (maybe you know more about
<Ultrix than I do. You're guaranteed to know at least as much as I
<do :-) ).
<
If you have a system running the CD then you can build a system to disk and
netboot and netcopy the system to other machines. Vaxes will mopboot other
vaxes.
Allison
For those interested in the Commodore VIC-20...
For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version
of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM. I started from a scan that I made of a crappy
dot-matrix print-out and have a version that compiles with no errors.
From this, I developed an assembler variable equates "include" file for all
of the VIC-20 RAM and ROM locations. It's a little messy because I preserved
the original address and op-code info to match against the assembler listing.
So, you have to import it into Excel to strip that info out, save it as text,
do some minor double-"double-quote" fixups and re-save it. I have also proven
to myself that the compiland is the same as the ROM image by using a simple
BASIC program to byte-compare the two files (my ROM image and a ROM image from
the Finland Commodore ftp site).
There are two versions of the "inc" file. One for recompiling the Kernel and
one for ML program writers (to avoid double variable declarations).
Right now, I'm working on documenting the code as best as I can. When that's
done (I'm up to location $f400), I'll post it and the "inc" files. I would
then look for you guys/gals to peer-review it and give me your comments. The
finished product can go into our archive. Then, I'll probably work on the
BASIC ROM.
And so it goes...
------------------------
Rich Cini/WUGNET
- ClubWin Charter Member (6)
- MCPS Windows 95/Networking
<From: "Lane, Bruce A" <B.Lane(a)PSS.Boeing.com>
< Gad, I'm beginning to get a REALLY good idea of what searching for
<tough-to-find's can be like!
<
< Here's the story. I have several MicroVAX II's. I need a way -- ANY
<way! -- to boot from a CD-ROM on one or all of them.
< OR (4): A later model of VAXen (maybe a 3500, 4000, or 5000 series)
<that is designed to accomodate SCSI from the get-go, and can boot from a
<CD-ROM.
Or a 3100, or vs2000 they have SCSI.
<As a last-gasp possibility, I do have a functional TK30 tape drive. Any
<chance that, if I copy the Ultrix distribution CD to a CompacTape II
<cartridge, it would be bootable by the MicroVAX?
Not likely if it's a copy. Though you likely can build a tape from the
copy.
<Fellow DEC'ers, I'm getting desperate. Please help me out if you can!
<I've got at least three systems sitting idle and gathering dust because
<I can't boot a CD on them at the moment.
Join the crowd. Of all my time in computers starting back with the PDP-8s
I've had the problem of I have W and the machine can read Y. Right now my
vaxen know only rx50, rx33, or tk50. My PC knows none of those and the
PDP-11 has those and RL02.
allison
Gad, I'm beginning to get a REALLY good idea of what searching for
tough-to-find's can be like!
Here's the story. I have several MicroVAX II's. I need a way -- ANY
way! -- to boot from a CD-ROM on one or all of them.
I NEED at least one of the following solutions.
1). (probably a pipe dream) An Andromeda Systems SCDC Q-bus/SCSI host
adapter. I don't even care if it doesn't work; I can get it refurbished
by the manufacturer. However, $2,500 new is way out of my range.
OR (2): ANY QBus-to-SCSI board that can boot from a CD-ROM drive (I
have a DEC RRD42).
OR (3): A DEC RRD40 CD-ROM drive and controller (the early RRD's used a
dedicated controller that, AFAIK, was compatible with any QBUS machine).
OR (4): A later model of VAXen (maybe a 3500, 4000, or 5000 series)
that is designed to accomodate SCSI from the get-go, and can boot from a
CD-ROM.
As a last-gasp possibility, I do have a functional TK30 tape drive. Any
chance that, if I copy the Ultrix distribution CD to a CompacTape II
cartridge, it would be bootable by the MicroVAX?
Fellow DEC'ers, I'm getting desperate. Please help me out if you can!
I've got at least three systems sitting idle and gathering dust because
I can't boot a CD on them at the moment.
Thanks in advance. Please reply to my other address: kyrrin(a)wizards.net
==Bruce Lane
http://www.wizards.net/technoid
Here's my update for the stuff I'm selling on AuctionWeb. There are a
couple fairly rare items here. I just want to clear stuff out and get
what I can for them so they will sell for the high bid. I recently sold
a few things there really cheap, like in the $1 - $5 range for new Apple
parts so I think overall the prices are down during the Summer.
Anyway, here's the list. Just go to the link shown to bid and get more
info. And drop me an email if you have a question beyond what's in the
listing.
Note the Apple Lisa Mouse and Apple III drive!
**Note: I mistakenly listed this as an Apple II mouse when, from a
couple emails, I was informed that it's actually an Apple Lisa Mouse.
There is a picture at the listing.
Old Apple Lisa Mouse! *** PHOTO ***
Current bid: $15.50
Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 16:45:54 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=zjz242
Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO**
Current bid: $7.50
Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950
Atari 520ST System With Floppy & More!
Current bid: $8.50
Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:49:56 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hrc0869
Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Expansion Card
Bidding starts at: $1.00
Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:35:51 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=eix4345
Timex Sinclair 1000 w/16K Module/Software
Current bid: $6.50
Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:46:22 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ytc65252
Brand New Apple IIe Power Supply!
Bidding starts at: $1.00
Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:59:52 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ipi2331
Macintosh SE Power Supply!
Current bid: $1.00
Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 17:35:06 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lxm4715
Brand New Apple IIe Replacement Keyboard!
Current bid: $5.51
Auction ends on: 07/27/97, 19:00:44 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qsa5622
Atari Trackball Controller **photo**
Bidding starts at: $2.00
Auction ends on: 07/27/97, 20:34:18 PDT
http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=gsi241
Also, I have lots more computer stuff in the garage that has to go.
Here's a brief list. I'll be listing everything on the auction in the
next month or so.
Apple IIe (3 ea)
Apple IIc with monitor and power supply
Apple IIe Color Monitor
Apple Imagewriter II printer (3 ea)
Macintosh 512k
Pile of new Apple service parts for Mac plus, Mac II, Apple IIe, IIc,
Imagewriter, more including power supplies, main boards, disk drives and
more.
Apple joysticks and paddle controllers
Commodore 1702 color monitor
Commodore 1541 drive (4 ea)
Commodore 64 in box
Piles of Commodore power supplies and cables, joysticks, etc
Thanks for reading!
From: Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk
Subject: PET FAQ
> What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the
> 8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week.
I don't have ANY information on the 8200 series, I suspect that it was
not widely released (or not at all) in the U.S. The 500/700 series are
not in the PET line, those are the B-series machines and would be a
separate FAQ - IMO.
>> Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive):
>> PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with)
>> - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys
> I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new
> ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the
> built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines.
Have to disagree with you on this one, the 'calaulator keyboard' PETs
seem to have the designation on 2001-8k or 2001-8/c (c referring to
calculator keyboard). The N designation meant [N]on Business and
[B]usiness style keyboards, both full-size, can find many sales ads and
books to refer to on that one (though if I were running a business on a
PET, I would have preferred the keyboard with the most keys...)
>> - Upgrade ROMs
>> - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops.
>> - many with clearer green on black displays
>I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight
>2001 (old ROM) with a green screen.
I think Commodore still had extras in stock (also small yeyboards &
tops), the blue screens aren't common but tere are some in later models
(kinda like finding VIC-20 keyboards in C-64 units)
>> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed
> Was this not only available as an upgrade?
I am going by personal experience here, there were 8" diaply PETs sold
with 4.0, I saw a couple come through our school.
>> PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine)
>> - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys)
>> - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode)
>> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed
>> - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased.
> Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small
> keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B
> machines
Hmmm, I have yet to see such an animal... But as I mentioned a few
answers back, with Commodore's thriftyness anything was possible. :)
>> PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM)
> I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting.
Again, N does not mean small keyboard.
>> 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.)
>Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints
>on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the
>40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't
>handle wrapped text, etc.
On many of the Commodore P.D. disks there is a program called 4032.C (I
think there is a .C on it...) it will bump your 8000 into a 40 columns
to run the 40 column programs on the disk.
> The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two
> chips. I haven't done this to mine yet...
Never heard of 'moving' chips, I read it was one of the ROMs (the one
that supplies the startup values...) that determined 40 or 80 column (as
well as video RAM memory too.) I guess you mean replacing two chips,
then yes. Going back to 40 is a bit easier since you don't have to add
RAM like in the 4000 PETs.
> At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D!
I'll have to dig up some solid info on this, as 'I said it is pretty
uncommon here.
>[... SUPERPET ...]
Got one, still puzzles me, also how much space I should devote to it as
I have only seen one (the one I bought recently). Will probably add
more as I get more time and information not very many people have asked
about them.
>> MOTHERBOARD SERIES
>>
>> 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT)
>> IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1
>> +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+
>> ! # ! #!
>> ! # ! #!
>> ! # exp ! #! exp
>> ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus
>> ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #!
>> ! # ! #!
>> ! ! ! !
>> ! ! ! !
>> ! ROMS ! ! !
>> ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! !
>> ! ! ! !
>>tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY !
>> #1 # ! #2 # !
>> +--------------------+ +--------------------+
>The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were
>no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2
>kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were
>therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0
'Programming the PET/CBM' gave me those diagrams and you are right about
the ROM sizes... Will have to re-do that one.
>The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports
>were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK.
Will keep with Programming PET/CBMs numbering for now, I'm trying to
answer questions not confuse people more... They should suffice all my
machines except the original (of course) have the tape #2 on the inside.
> 8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard
> mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?).
Again I have no data on the 8200 PET/CBMs, point me toward your FAQ on
it... *grin*
>> WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC?
>> Original ROMs
>> Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are
>> limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine
>> language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory
>> location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for
>> lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a
>> while to compile them)
>Some of these were not bugs but features. [so Microsoft would have Commodore believe...]
>Peeking and poking in upper memory (thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people
>looking at the ROMS. [Common among early micros fortunately Commodore learend the
> 'closed box means no 3rd party support' lesson early]
>In the E page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards...
>The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever
>computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in
>screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files"
>error.
Just skimmed a bit about bugs with the Cassette routines. There was
some usage problems on the PEEKs warning not to cluster them too close
together... Facinating stuff...
>> Added screen 'window' formatting control characters.
>Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not
>have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features.
I think you're right on that... still have to research that one more.
>> HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR?
>> The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some)...
>TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual.
Jim butterfield referred to it as Tiny Monitor in the First Book of
VIC, thanks for the clarification.
>> WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT?.....
>[ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ]
>The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It
>was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the
>character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing
>speed even if you had speeded it up.
>The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine
>waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory.
>This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random
>pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the
>I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when
>to access the video RAM.
>The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured
>this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print
>character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with
>the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the
>video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the
>other).
Will re-work that one, thanks for the description.
>> IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32
>NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets!
Hmmm I know that program works on the big screen units... more
research!
>> CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET?
>> With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from
>> the user port...
>> Insert Video Diagram here....
>Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't
>work.
DANG! It was such a neat plan too! Guess I'll have to forget that
question for now (until I can find an alternative diagram.)
Larry Anderson
--
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At 12:02 AM 7/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
> Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who
>care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short-
>term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you
Well, I would gladly spend hundreds, or even thousands of dollars to save
computers (and misc. other stuff I collect) from around the world. Problem
is, I'm lucky if I've got enough $ to save me from going hungry. I'm not
complaining, mind you (it's my own fault, really; spending all this money on
silly computers and land rovers and stuff...) but just pointing out that a
lot (most?) people simply *CAN'T* blow $200 on shipping a computer or
what-have-you. Doesn't do much good to get an HP3000 series 3 if you then
have to rip the guts out to live in it.
I get the same story from people who say "Oh, you really ought to join the
Y/club/whatever, it's not expensive" when what they really mean is "it's not
expensive for me, but hey, I just bought a $50K BMW for my kid's 15th
birthday." (I think there are those who get BMW's for their birthday, and
those who get underwear. I got underwear.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
At 07:00 PM 7/22/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy
>Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real
>pain. What do other collectors do with these machines?
Shelves. If you face them towards each other:
_ _
|_\_ _/_|
You can slip light boxes or what-have-you in between. Of course, us really
*smart* people concentrate on portables... 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
