6 Jul
2011
6 Jul
'11
6:03 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Andrew Lynch <lynchaj at yahoo.com
<http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk> > wrote:
Copied from KiCAD-users mailing list. Hobbyists have
long needed a
free/open source PCB autorouter for their EDA tool suites. One is now in
development. Please support this project. This is not my project but one
I
strongly believe is very good for EDA hobbyists. Certainly useful for
KiCAD
and maybe gEDA as well.
Hi Andrew,
There's this one for gEDA which has been around for several years.
PCB, http://pcb.gpleda.org/news.html
And it's available on sourceforge, http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb/
And you can track the progress here, https://launchpad.net/pcb/
Why reinvent the wheel ??
They could probably use more coders to support this.
=Dan
-----REPLY-----
Hi Dan,
You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout tool (PCB) which
includes an autorouter. However, they are closely coupled and if you want to use the PCB
autorouter you must start with gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it. There is no
import/export capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE, etc then you are out of
luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole EDA technology because
there are few if any interchange standards. There is no way to import/export PCBs in/out
of gEDA AFAIK, at least from KiCAD. I can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra
import/export necessary to use FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so.
QAutorouter is a *much* better approach of decoupling the autorouter from PCB layout tool.
Any EDA tool set that can export Specctra DSN and import Specctra SES files can use
QAutorouter. Also since it has an API which allows multiple different free/open source
autorouters to "plug in" the hobbyists can potentially use MUCS-PCB, Topological
Autorouter, the gEDA PCB autorouter, the KiCAD autorouter (yuck), or new autorouters.
Really the PCB layout tool and the PCB autorouter are so different they *should* be
separate tools. Integration just leads to yet more EDA "lock in".
Personally, I won't even consider gEDA since I have 50+ complete boards in KiCAD
format. KiCAD is not perfect by any stretch but it supports at least some level of EDA
interchange standards (Specctra at least).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software
Thanks
Andrew Lynch
6 Jul
6 Jul
7:21 p.m.
On 6 Jul 2011 at 16:03, Andrew Lynch wrote:
You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA
includes a PCB layout
tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely
coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with
gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it.
Sigh. Music transcription software suffers the same sort of lock-in,
but a modicum of progress has been made with the MusicXML approach.
Unfortunately, add-ons/plugins for import and export to/from the
notation packages are closed-source and often sold separately at
ridiculous prices.
With all of the time that EDA packages have been out, I don't
understand why standard formats for netlist and BOM files haven't
been developed that any autorouter can work from.
For that matter, why couldn't any schematic capture work from the
same two files?
--Chuck
9:08 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch <lynchaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dan,
You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA includes a PCB layout tool
(PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely coupled and
if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with gEDA EDA tool set
and stay with it.
Yes, this is true, something that's been typical of commercial/proprietary
EDA vendors for several decades now - it always drives people nuts.
There is no import/export capability so if you use
KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE,
etc then you are out of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole
EDA technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There is
no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from KiCAD. I
can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export necessary to use
FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so.
I'm all for standards, trust me on that.
When you're designing with the abhorrent world of FPGA & CPLD EDA tools, you
>pray<< for standards !!
However, since this is open source too - Lock-in is a state of mind - there
is nothing preventing anyone from adding this import/export feature to gEDA
PCB.
I see already the Specctra format is available online
http://www.autotraxeda.com/docs/SPECCTRA/SPECCTRA.pdf
I see there were some attempts already by some people to add Specctra dsn
exporting for gEDA PCB, so it's not a lost cause.
http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Jul-2009/msg00335.html
http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Jul-2009/msg00456.html
QAutorouter is a *much* better approach of decoupling the autorouter from
PCB layout tool. Any EDA tool set that can export Specctra DSN and import
Specctra SES files can use QAutorouter. Also since it has an API which
allows multiple different free/open source autorouters to "plug in" the
hobbyists can potentially use MUCS-PCB, Topological Autorouter, the gEDA PCB
autorouter, the KiCAD autorouter (yuck), or new autorouters. Really the PCB
layout tool and the PCB autorouter are so different they *should* be
separate tools. Integration just leads to yet more EDA "lock in".
As long as it supports 45deg and Free angle routing :)
You won't get very far when trying to autoroute a board using several FPGA's
with BGA packages.
Personally, I won't even consider gEDA since I
have 50+ complete boards in
KiCAD format. KiCAD is not perfect by any stretch but it supports at least
some level of EDA interchange standards (Specctra at least).
that webpage seems to be incomplete,
It doesn't show how many of the open source eda tools support Specctra
dsn/ses format.
There's only _one_ mention of support for this.
=Dan
10:39 p.m.
On 7/6/11 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA
includes a PCB layout
tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely
coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with
gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it.
This is not correct! While there is a well-developed integrative
path between PCB and the gEDA suite, it is NOT necessary to do all of
your schematics in gEDA in order to use PCB, nor is it necessary to use
PCB for your board layouts if you use gEDA for schematics/BOM/etc.
The program "PCB" is only very loosely associated with gEDA.
Different authors/maintainers, different lineage, different original
platforms (PCB started out as a program for the Atari ST many moons ago,
if memory serves) etc etc.
There is no import/export
capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE, etc
then you are out
of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole EDA
technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There
is no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from
KiCAD. I can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export
necessary to use FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so.
There's very little import/export functionality in stuff like this
because there are no standard formats. gEDA's file format is purely
text-based and was designed to be easily parsable, so if one can
decipher the desired target format it should be possible to write an
exporter.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:45 p.m.
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 23:39:14 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: free-open source PCB autorouter software development
On 7/6/11 7:03 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
With comments to the translation issue, and autorouters:
Cooper and Chyan succeeded with their generic autorouter SPECCTRA by getting the major PCB
EDA companies to adopt and contribute to their translation interface; a key part is the
.DSN and .SES in and out formats. A layout package can only export a DSN, pre-route, and
can only import a SES, post-route.
With this limitation, it was adopted by all EDA companies. Otherwise, SPECCTRA could have
become the pirenial hub-spoke system of EDA translation, and make all systems
interoperable with a neutral database. Once you exported a DSN, why not allow a layout
system to read it back in? Export from ORCAD a DSN, and import it into PADS / Expedition
or your flavor of the month.
You've missed the point entirely. Yes, gEDA
includes a PCB layout
tool (PCB) which includes an autorouter. However, they are closely
coupled and if you want to use the PCB autorouter you must start with
gEDA EDA tool set and stay with it.
This is not correct! While there is a well-developed integrative
path between PCB and the gEDA suite, it is NOT necessary to do all of
your schematics in gEDA in order to use PCB, nor is it necessary to use
PCB for your board layouts if you use gEDA for schematics/BOM/etc.
The program "PCB" is only very loosely associated with gEDA.
Different authors/maintainers, different lineage, different original
platforms (PCB started out as a program for the Atari ST many moons ago,
if memory serves) etc etc.
There is no import/export
capability so if you use KiCAD, FreePCB, EAGLE,
etc then you are out
of luck. This is the "lock in" which plagues the whole EDA
technology because there are few if any interchange standards. There
is no way to import/export PCBs in/out of gEDA AFAIK, at least from
KiCAD. I can't tell if gEDA supports Specctra import/export
necessary to use FreeRouting.net but doesn't appear so.
There's very little import/export functionality in stuff like this
because there are no standard formats. gEDA's file format is purely
text-based and was designed to be easily parsable, so if one can
decipher the desired target format it should be possible to write an
exporter.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL From an autorouting perspective, the translation
problem is greatly simplified as it only knows copper shapes and layers, along with net
names; it has no knowledge of the PCB database and related part and non electrical
information.
Cooper and Chyan are probably now bartenders in the Bahamas, they sold SPECCTRA to Cadence
years ago. There are a few of us who truly know how to drive it - realizing that first of
all it is not an autorouter, but a statistical constraint solver. it creates copper
spaghetti at first, then resolves the constraints (a .DO file) with successive passes,
increasing a 'tax' (don't do this) table to find a solution. I have done a
hundred or more boards with this system with signals at GHz rates, diff pairs, crosstalk
control, and they all worked straight out of the box.
Do not discount the SPECCTRA autorouter, and the funny 90 degree bends and pad escapes,
the boards work just fine.
5225
days inactive
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