30 Aug
2023
30 Aug
'23
8:38 p.m.
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd
party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the
benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal.
Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route
over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific
application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if
there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder
some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a
keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a
terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
30 Aug
30 Aug
8:49 p.m.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function
keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to
buy a video card instead of a terminal?
Primarily cost I'm led to believe. There were also games that took advantage of
primitive graphics characters.
Thanks,
Jonathan
8:52 p.m.
I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system.
Why?
1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at
115,200 baud.
2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a
terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits,
but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap).
3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another
reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character
generator.
On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd
party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the
benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal.
Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route
over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific
application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if
there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder
some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a
keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a
terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
9:02 p.m.
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50
system.
Why?
1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at
115,200 baud.
115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the
top end.
2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way
cheaper back then than a
terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits,
but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap).
3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another
reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character
generator.
4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than to
generate
all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be it a
game,
a graph or just an emacs buffer).
I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow
because it
was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an
internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the
computer
after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs
terminals
followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards were
also
chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built.
Warner
On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and
a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am
trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs
just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card
supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a
terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a
specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could
understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a
standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just
provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an
application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to
buy a video card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
9:15 p.m.
/115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at
the top end/
That is true. I remember setting my serial board for external baud rate
and the SWTPC CT-82 terminal to generate the baud rate and I think it
was like 38,400 maximum.
My VT-220 maxes out at 9600 and my VT-330+ maxes out at 19,200.
Remember the teletypes ran at 110 baud or slower. The decwrite and GE
Terminet were speed demons at 300 and 1200 baud.
On 8/30/2023 3:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system.
Why?
1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at
115,200 baud.
115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at
the top end.
2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then
than a
terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A
kits,
but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap).
3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another
reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM
character
generator.
4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than
to generate
all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be
it a game,
a graph or just an emacs buffer).
I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow
because it
was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an
internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the
computer
after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs
terminals
followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards
were also
chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built.
Warner
On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video
card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped
with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a
video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal.
Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a
reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard,
ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I
don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if
there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV.
That would save the builder some money. But this computer just
provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an
application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those
days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
1 Sep
1 Sep
2:41 p.m.
Back in the day, I could not afford a terminal. All I could afford was
a Polymorphic video card and a real cheap keyboard to connect to my
IMSAI 8080 (with a memory card borrowed from a friend that eventually I
bought from him). This was in the 1970's, and I was still in the Navy
and my pay was minimal at best.
Bob
On 8/30/2023 4:15 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
/115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually
9600 or 19200 at
the top end/
That is true. I remember setting my serial board for external baud rate
and the SWTPC CT-82 terminal to generate the baud rate and I think it
was like 38,400 maximum.
My VT-220 maxes out at 9600 and my VT-330+ maxes out at 19,200.
Remember the teletypes ran at 110 baud or slower. The decwrite and GE
Terminet were speed demons at 300 and 1200 baud.
On 8/30/2023 3:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk
> <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system.
>
> Why?
>
> 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at
> 115,200 baud.
>
>
> 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at
> the top end.
>
> 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then
> than a
> terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A
> kits,
> but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap).
> 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another
> reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM
> character
> generator.
>
>
> 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than
> to generate
> all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be
> it a game,
> a graph or just an emacs buffer).
>
> I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow
> because it
> was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system
> with an
> internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the
> computer
> after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs
> terminals
> followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards
> were also
> chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built.
>
> Warner
>
> On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video
> card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped
> with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a
> video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal.
> Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a
> reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard,
> ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I
> don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if
> there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV.
> That would save the builder some money. But this computer just
> provides composite.
> >
> > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an
> application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those
> days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal?
> >
> > Thanks for the bandwidth.
> >
> > 73 Eugene W2HX
> > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel:
> https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
> >
>
--
Bob Grabau
http://www.astrohbg.org
http://www.cherrysprings.org
Our Star Party for 2024: June 6-9, 2024 at Cherry Springs State Park, PA
30 Aug
30 Aug
9:54 p.m.
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a
keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am
trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs
just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported
graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for
the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there
was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the
builder some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application
on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video
card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
10:05 p.m.
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the
composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and
Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't).
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'W2HX' <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>om>; William Sudbrink
<wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a
keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am
trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs
just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported
graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for
the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there
was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the
builder some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application
on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video
card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
--
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www.avast.com
10:08 p.m.
Ok great info, everyone. Thanks for the information!
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 5:06 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the composite
signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad probably wouldn't
go for that (mine didn't).
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'W2HX' <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>om>; William Sudbrink
<wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board
that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references
to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards.
The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference
it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With
that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually
hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd
party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the
benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal.
Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route
over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific
application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF
modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But
this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a
keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a
terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
--
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www.avast.com
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1 Sep
1 Sep
4:45 p.m.
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power
supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply.
I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made
sewing machines ).
Dwight
________________________________
From: W2HX via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 2:08 PM
To: William Sudbrink <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>et>; 'General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Ok great info, everyone. Thanks for the information!
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 5:06 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the composite
signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad probably wouldn't
go for that (mine didn't).
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'W2HX' <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>om>; William Sudbrink
<wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board
that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references
to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards.
The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference
it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With
that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually
hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd
party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the
benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal.
Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route
over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific
application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF
modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But
this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a
keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a
terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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5:02 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:51 PM dwight via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power
supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply.
I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work.
The original TRS-80 model 1 monitor was based on a live-chassis (hot
chassis?) RCA TV set. The USA version had an optoisolator circuit on
the video input, the LED driver circuit was powered from the +5V line
in the computer (hence the +5V on one pin of the video DIN socket). As
the TV was designed for 115V mains only, the European version has a
step-down transformer on the AC input. They used an isolating
transformer, meaning there was no need to isolate the video input in
the European models.
Philips made a viewdata termal set where the colour monitor was a
modified KT3 television. The power supply in that starts by bridge
rectifying the mains input, meaning the chassis is dangerously live no
matter which way round the mains is connected. The solution to that
was a 240V 300mA (or so) secondary winding on the mains transformer in
the the viewdate terminal unit. This provided an isolated AC supply to
the monitor, so the chassis of the latter could be earthed.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry
machine ( I thought they only made sewing machines ).
Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am
sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a
telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same
company)
-tony
5:06 p.m.
Singer certainly had a place in early computing. But was it the same Singer
that made sewing machines ?
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 5:02 PM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:51 PM dwight via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a
transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a
transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and
found one that would work.
The original TRS-80 model 1 monitor was based on a live-chassis (hot
chassis?) RCA TV set. The USA version had an optoisolator circuit on
the video input, the LED driver circuit was powered from the +5V line
in the computer (hence the +5V on one pin of the video DIN socket). As
the TV was designed for 115V mains only, the European version has a
step-down transformer on the AC input. They used an isolating
transformer, meaning there was no need to isolate the video input in
the European models.
Philips made a viewdata termal set where the colour monitor was a
modified KT3 television. The power supply in that starts by bridge
rectifying the mains input, meaning the chassis is dangerously live no
matter which way round the mains is connected. The solution to that
was a 240V 300mA (or so) secondary winding on the mains transformer in
the the viewdate terminal unit. This provided an isolated AC supply to
the monitor, so the chassis of the latter could be earthed.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry
machine ( I thought
they only made sewing machines ).
Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am
sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a
telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same
company)
-tony
6:18 p.m.
On 9/1/23 09:06, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
Singer certainly had a place in early computing. But
was it the same Singer
that made sewing machines ?
Yes, the sewing machine maker (also purchased Link). The small card
reader even sounded like a sewing machine when running.
--Chuck
6:16 p.m.
On 9/1/23 09:02, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I've seen desktop card readers with the "Singer" badge as well as
printers. Singer purchased Friden in 1965, but continued the Friden
brand on some items until 1974.
-Chuck
The keyboard
was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made sewing machines ).
Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am
sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a
telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same
company)
6:23 p.m.
They made pistols:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-m…
Will
On 9/1/23 09:02, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only
made sewing machines ).
6:38 p.m.
On Sep 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
They made pistols:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-m…
Will
Lots of companies made weapons during WW2. M1 carbines were made by Rock-Ola,
Pitney-Bowes, IBM, GM, Underwood Typewriters, and several others. That's an IBM
product I'd love to find...
paul
6:42 p.m.
On 9/1/23 10:23, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
They made pistols:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-m…
I love these seeming corporate mismatches. You know, Exxon purchasing
Zilog (and a number of other unrelated businesses). My favorite was
Ex-cell-o, starting business as a machine tool maker, making waxed-paper
milk cartons and purchasing disk maker Bryant.
But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars,
going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors...
--Chuck
7:01 p.m.
On 09/01/2023 12:42 PM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 9/1/23 10:23, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
My favorite is Votrax (speech synthesizers) being a division of Federal Screw Works.
Will
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign
them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
They made pistols:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-m…
I love these seeming corporate mismatches. You know, Exxon purchasing
Zilog (and a number of other unrelated businesses). My favorite was
Ex-cell-o, starting business as a machine tool maker, making waxed-paper
milk cartons and purchasing disk maker Bryant.
But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars,
going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors...
--Chuck 
1 Sep
1 Sep
7:58 p.m.
New subject: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors)
On 9/1/23 10:42, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the
canning (Mason) jars,
going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors...
At one point in the late 1970's, some division of Ball ended up buying
the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit
Eclipses. After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive,
which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense
when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking lot".
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
8:23 p.m.
New subject: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors)
On 9/1/23 11:58, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
At one point in the late 1970's, some division of
Ball ended up buying
the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit
Eclipses. After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive,
which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense
when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking lot".
A friend employed by Ball Aerospace used to receive every year, at
Christmastime, a box of holiday-themed mason jars. Of course, Ball has
long-since spun off its glass jar operation, although the Ball brand
continues.
An icon in Muncie, IN for many years, Ball State University was the
result of the Ball brothers' commitment to the community. Used to be
Ball State Teachers College, known by many as "Testicle Tech".
--Chuck
9:09 p.m.
New subject: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors)
On Sep 1, 2023, at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 9/1/23 11:58, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
That's a bit like Coors, which makes beer and high quality ceramics.
paul
At one point in the late 1970's, some
division of Ball ended up buying
the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit
Eclipses. After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive,
which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense
when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking lot".
A friend employed by Ball Aerospace used to receive every year, at
Christmastime, a box of holiday-themed mason jars. Of course, Ball has
long-since spun off its glass jar operation, although the Ball brand
continues. 
2 Sep
2 Sep
1:37 a.m.
New subject: Ball Brothers (was: Re: Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors)
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 1:09 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Panasonic enters the conversation...
Sellam
On Sep 1, 2023, at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 9/1/23 11:58, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
> At one point in the late 1970's, some division of Ball ended up buying
> the firm that did contract maintenance on our Novas and 16 bit
> Eclipses. After the purchase the quality of the work took a nosedive,
> which led to one of my coworkers observing "Well, it kinda makes sense
> when you consider that they also make the garbage cans in the parking
lot".
A friend employed by Ball Aerospace used to receive every year, at
Christmastime, a box of holiday-themed mason jars. Of course, Ball has
long-since spun off its glass jar operation, although the Ball brand
continues.
That's a bit like Coors, which makes beer and high quality ceramics.
paul
1 Sep
1 Sep
10:04 p.m.
New subject: Ball Brothers
On 2023-09-01 15:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
An icon in Muncie, IN for many years, Ball State
University was the
result of the Ball brothers' commitment to the community. Used to be
Ball State Teachers College, known by many as "Testicle Tech".
--Chuck
I went to Ball State in the late 90s to get my degree in Computer
Science. I got my interest in Sun workstations from there because they
use Solaris on Intel 2.5.1 running on Gateway PCs for student lab. They
also had Ultra 1 or Ultra 2 as the department NFS and NIS server. Duane
Gran ran SolarisCentral.org out of his off-campus apartment before he
graduated.
I ended up working as a student operator/traffic assistant at the
on-campus PBS station, WIPB-TV. I loved working at that station handling
the media formats, VTR, and broadcast equipment.
I never heard it being called Testicle Tech while I was there.
-Andy Wallis
8:38 p.m.
With all this talk about Friden and Singer, perhaps someone can help me
jog my memory. We were working on a contract that, as remote terminals,
included a card reader (singer) and a printing terminal (singer also).
The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical
typewheel rotating perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said
typewheel was in contact with an ink-soaked felt wheel. Carriage return
was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk simplicity.
What I remember the printers most for was that every printing session
started and ended with a page eject, as the ink from the
constantly-spinning typewheel made a glorious streak on any stationary
paper.
I think the printers were eventually scrapped, but I wonder if anyone
remembers them.
Terminals involving card punching used Univac keypunches--the ones with
the LCD display and buffer memory--you typed a card and then hit "feed"
and the blank was punched all at once. Apparently, there was an option
to hook the thing to a remote server.
--Chuck
11:18 p.m.
On 9/1/23 14:38, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
With all this talk about Friden and Singer, perhaps
someone can help me
jog my memory. We were working on a contract that, as remote terminals,
included a card reader (singer) and a printing terminal (singer also).
The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical
typewheel rotating perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said
typewheel was in contact with an ink-soaked felt wheel. Carriage return
was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk simplicity.
I remember a Kleinschmidt (I think) printer that had a wheel
that spun on a horizontal shaft that was in front of the
paper. The wheel had a spline so that it turned
synchronously with the shaft, but could be slid left and
right, maybe by a toothed belt. Then. I guess there was a
hammer behind the paper that pressed it against the ribbon
and type wheel when the right character passed by. It
printed at 30 chars/second. I looked for this model online
but didn't find anything.
Jon
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:12 a.m.
Chuck wrote:
The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing
head with a vertical typewheel rotating
perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said typewheel was in contact with an
ink-soaked felt
wheel. Carriage return was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk
simplicity.
This alphanumeric printer was an extension of the printer internally developed by Friden
for its first line of printing electronic calculators, the Friden 115x series.
See my online exhibit for one of the 115x calculators, the 1152 at
https://oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1152.html
These kind of sucked because of there actually was an intermediate "print wheel
inker" drum between the ink-soaked cartridge-loaded ink-source, and the wheel. This
intermediate wheel was made of a rubber compound that both A) degraded due to solvent in
the ink, and B) degraded due to rubber's usual degradation due to ozone in the
atmosphere. In time, this intermediate roller turned into a wad of black, sticky goo that
clogged up the works of the printer. I have a number of Friden 115x calculators where
this has happened, and replacing that roller is not easy to do, as it's a very precise
diameter. I am pretty sure that the alphanumeric version of this printer (which
Singer/Friden also sold to OEM customers...not sure if they had many takers) had the same
intermediate drum that acted to transfer the ink from the ink roll to the print wheel.
In theory, it was kind of a neat design. In practice, it sucked. One thing that was
interesting is that the characters on the print wheel were organized in a helical form to
help offset the fact that that the carriage motion was constant (it didn't stop when
the hammer was fired). The print wheel for an alphanumeric version was larger in
diameter to allow for the extra characters beyond those used in a printing calculator.
1 Sep
1 Sep
6:29 p.m.
Tony wrote:
Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at
one point? I am sure I've seen calculators
batched(sic) 'Singer Friden').
Yup. In July of 1963, Singer announced its intent to purchase Friden. The deal closed in
October.
It was all a part of a larger diversification move on the part of Singer that began in the
early 1960's.
Friden employees in general were not at all happy about the acquisition, especially those
in design and engineering.
Fortunately, the Singer management was far away, and only made occasional visits. But,
as is inevitable, the important Friden culture started to be eroded.
Singer effectively began the death of internal electronic calculator development at Friden
when it quietly started selling the transistorized Friden 1112 electronic calculator,
which was made in Japan by Hitachi, purchased under a temporary OEM agreement between
Singer and Hitachi.
The 1112 was an experiment to see how well the machine sold. It did reasonably well, and
that was enough for Singer to slowly begin to dismantle the Friden electronic calculator
development operation, and start selling OEM-acquired (from Hitachi initially) calculators
under the Singer/Friden badge.
The Friden 1154 electronic printing programmable calculator was the last
fully-Friden-designed & built electronic calculator developed.
The later Friden 1155 was a design that was farmed out to an independent
design/development company, which was told to re-use as much from the 1154 as possible.
After that, all of the calculators were acquired under OEM agreements from other
companies, and by that time, most of the brain trust that made Friden's wonderful and
unusual electronic calculators had left.
In the fall of 1975, Singer shuttered all Friden operations, ending the legacy of
Friden.
6:41 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 6:29 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Tony wrote:
> Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure I've
seen calculators
> batched(sic) 'Singer Friden').
Singer effectively began the death of internal
electronic calculator development at Friden when it quietly started selling the
transistorized Friden 1112 electronic calculator, which was made in Japan by Hitachi,
purchased under a temporary OEM agreement between Singer and Hitachi.
The 1112 was an experiment to see how well the machine sold. It did reasonably well, and
that was enough for Singer to slowly begin to dismantle the Friden electronic calculator
development operation, and start selling OEM-acquired (from Hitachi initially) calculators
under the Singer/Friden badge.
By coincidence I bought a Hitachi KK521 (later version with vacuum
fluorescent display tubes, not Nixies) a couple of weeks back. I read
that it was also sold as the Friden EC1117A.
-tony
7:55 p.m.
On Fri, 1 Sep 2023, dwight via cctalk wrote:
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and
no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power
supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply.
I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made
sewing machines ).
Dwight
Singer/Friden Flexowriter
Singer made many things. But sewing machines were successful in the
market.
2 Sep
2 Sep
2:07 p.m.
On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and
no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power
supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply.
I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made
sewing machines ).
Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early
70's I wanted
to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I
couldn't even get my
foot in the door.
bill
4 Sep
4 Sep
8:31 a.m.
On 2 Sep 2023, at 15:07, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
The Singer Link F-16 simulator used Norsk Data superminis (initially ND50, but later
ND500). This is not really relevant to S-100 and video monitors, but I like to mention
Norsk Data whenever the opportunity arises.
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor
and no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power
supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply.
I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made
sewing machines ).
Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70's I wanted
to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn't even get
my
foot in the door.
bill
2:22 p.m.
On 9/4/2023 3:31 AM, Raymond Wiker via cctalk wrote:
Our Singer Link facility was gone by the time the F-16 came around.
Think F-4 and maybe even
F-104 when I was trying to get a job. Not sure if they did helicopters,
too but it would have been
UH-1, Cobra and Chinook.
bill
On 2 Sep 2023, at 15:07, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
The Singer Link F-16 simulator used Norsk Data superminis (initially ND50, but
later ND500). This is not really relevant to S-100 and video monitors, but I like to
mention Norsk Data whenever the opportunity arises. My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor
and no keyboard.
I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power
supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply.
I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work.
The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made
sewing machines ).
Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70's I wanted
to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn't even get
my
foot in the door.
bill
31 Aug
31 Aug
10:06 p.m.
On 31 Aug 2023, at 07:07, William Sudbrink via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the
composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and
Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't).
I paid a local electronics store to add an RCA composite input to our old black &
white TV, bypassing the tuner. It think it cost $50 at the time (early 80s)
d
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'W2HX' <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>om>; William Sudbrink
<wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a
keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am
trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs
just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported
graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for
the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there
was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the
builder some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application
on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video
card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
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10:40 p.m.
Was the picture significantly better then with the modulator ?
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2023, at 14:14, David Arnold via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 31 Aug 2023, at 07:07, William Sudbrink via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the
composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and
Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't).
I paid a local electronics store to add an RCA composite input to our old black &
white TV, bypassing the tuner. It think it cost $50 at the time (early 80s)
d
-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: 'W2HX' <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>om>; William Sudbrink
<wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a
keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am
trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs
just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported
graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for
the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there
was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the
builder some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application
on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video
card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
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10:53 p.m.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Was the picture significantly better then with the
modulator ?
It always was for me.
With composite input, I could read 80 characters per line, not with RF,
For example, on the RS Coco, it wasn't very hard to bring out composite
video for a sharper picture. With RF, the signal was converted from
video to RF, and then the TV tuner converted back to video. Certainly,
some were worse than others, . . .
The tuners in VCRs were almost always much better than those in TVs, for
watching over the air broadcasts, a VCR tuner with composite video to a
monitor was better than a TV.
From 1975 until 2010, I didn't have a TV with a tuner.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
10:53 p.m.
On 8/31/23 14:06, David Arnold via cctalk wrote:
The first monitor I owned, which was connected to a TV Typewriter, which
was connected to my Altair 8800, was an old Zenith "hot chassis"
portable tube TV. Tapped into the video just downstream from the video IF.
The set didn't have a polarized AC plug (I don't trust those things
anyway), so you had to be a bit careful when applying power (the TVT and
Altair used 3-prong grounded AC plugs). It worked well enough to
provide a clear 64x16 character display.
I believe that Sony used some of their portable transistorized TV sets
as monitors, equipping them with SO239 UHF connectors. I recall having
one of those as well.
--Chuck
On 31 Aug 2023, at 07:07, William Sudbrink via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the
composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and
Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't).
I paid a local electronics store to add an RCA composite input to our old black &
white TV, bypassing the tuner. It think it cost $50 at the time (early 80s)
11:11 p.m.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I believe that Sony used some of their portable
transistorized TV sets
as monitors, equipping them with SO239 UHF connectors. I recall having
one of those as well.
Sony's CV and AV series reel to reel portable video recorders used one of
those. It was black, and had Rf input, UHF connector, a 14? pin
rectangular Honda plug, and a slide switch for TV/monitor. In 1971, I
once "repaired" one of the college's ones by sliding that switch out of
the middle position :-)
I got one of those at a flea market, and that was what I had for my
TRS80.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:47 p.m.
Composite will 99.999999% of the time be better than RF modulated due to
the bandwidth of NTSC (American) Televisions. The NTSC television
standard was not what I would exactly call high tech or high
resolution. It was 525 scan lines interlaced at 30Hz meaning that there
was only 262.5 lines every 60th of a second. If you were very very
lucky and had a very good television you might get 640 x 480 with alot
of flicker. If you want color the resolution went way down due to the
way that the NTSC standard handled colors to be backwards compatible
with black and white televisions.
The roots of this standard go all the way back to the 1930's and became
a standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the
filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the
70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug with
a switch for modulated or unmodulated signals.
I remember buying small composite monitors with a single RCA jack on the
back for < $100 as far back as like 1982.
Usually if the monitor had speakers it was based on a TV without the
tuner, if it didn't have speakers it was a purpose build monitor.
As the cost of video production came down in the 70's and 80's the cost
of composite monitors dropped considerably and also started appearing on
the used market. I remember buying a black and white square box video
monitor for like $50 as the Dayton hamfest in the early 80's.
On 8/31/2023 5:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I believe that Sony used some of their portable
transistorized TV sets
as monitors, equipping them with SO239 UHF connectors. I recall having
one of those as well.
Sony's CV and AV series reel to reel portable video recorders used one
of those. It was black, and had Rf input, UHF connector, a 14? pin
rectangular Honda plug, and a slide switch for TV/monitor. In 1971, I
once "repaired" one of the college's ones by sliding that switch out
of the middle position :-)
I got one of those at a flea market, and that was what I had for my
TRS80.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1 Sep
1 Sep
12:02 a.m.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
The roots of this standard go all the way back to the
1930's and became a
standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the filters
and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the 70's and
early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug with a switch
for modulated or unmodulated signals.
That little switchbox was so that the RF input of the TV could be switched
between the [normal] antenna, and the RF modulator of the Computer/vide
game. With almost all of them, the output was to the TV, and the inputs
were antenna VS computer/video game
Without that switch, if they were just hooked in parallel, then the output
of the computer/video game could leak/boadcast out of the antenna.
12:13 a.m.
You are correct for some but I do recall some with a composite output in
that little switch box as well. Maybe I'm misremembering from 50 years ago.
On 8/31/2023 6:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
The roots of this standard go all the way back to
the 1930's and
became a standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all
of the filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video
games of the 70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and
an RCA plug with a switch for modulated or unmodulated signals.
That little switchbox was so that the RF input of the TV could be
switched between the [normal] antenna, and the RF modulator of the
Computer/vide game. With almost all of them, the output was to the
TV, and the inputs were antenna VS computer/video game
Without that switch, if they were just hooked in parallel, then the
output of the computer/video game could leak/boadcast out of the antenna.
12:39 a.m.
They were available with a variety of connectors.
Some of those switchboxes had a short flat wire with spade lugs as
output for connecting to the TV, and for input had screw terminal antenna
input, and RCA for the RF input from the RF modulator.
the Wikipedia article for the Sup'R'Mod II has a picture of one such.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod
That could easily be mistaken for antenna VS composite switching.
But, there were also some stand-alone RF modulators that were like what
you are describing. That would presumably have a wall-wart or similar
power supply?
OB_irrelevant_anecdote: I had a Plantronics CGA double board that
supported 640x400 video, and maybe some other text modes. It had a DE9
and 4 pin Berg, but no RCA jack! The Sup'R'Mod had 4 pin Berg and RCA
jack inputs, plus RCA RF output. Not having an extra DE9 monitor handy,
and not having time to conveniently make a cable for the Plantronics
board, I "temporarily" connected the 4 pin Berg of a Sup'R'Mod to the
Plantronics board, and connected a composite monitor to the RCA "input" of
the Sup'R'Mod, but nothing to the Sup'R'Mod output to use the
Sup'R'Mod as
a cable adapter. "temporarily" was less than 10 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod
Q: is "Berg" the right/best name for that 4 pin connector?
male was 4 pins in a row with one missing;
female was an appropriate molex connector
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
> You are correct for some but I do recall some with a composite output in that
> little switch box as well. Maybe I'm misremembering from 50 years ago.
>
> On 8/31/2023 6:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
>>> The roots of this standard go all the way back to the 1930's and became a
>>> standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the
>>> filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the
>>> 70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug
with a
>>> switch for modulated or unmodulated signals.
>>
>> That little switchbox was so that the RF input of the TV could be switched
>> between the [normal] antenna, and the RF modulator of the Computer/vide
>> game. With almost all of them, the output was to the TV, and the inputs
>> were antenna VS computer/video game
>>
>> Without that switch, if they were just hooked in parallel, then the output
>> of the computer/video game could leak/boadcast out of the antenna.
>
12:53 a.m.
One important reason for UHF for the Sup'R'Mod, instead of channel 3/4:
Some TVs at the time had a built-in VHF antenna, and no external
connection for VHF! But, the UHF was a small loop or "bowtie" that
connected to a pair of screw terminals on the back of the set.
For example, the 17"? 19"? portable Philco that my brother and I bought
(and, our father chipped in the EXTRA COST for the model with UHF)
I remember watching the cuban missile crisis on that set. And, seeing
every light on Massachusetts Avenue ("embassy row") on all night.
By modulating to UHF (Channel 33), the Sup'R'Mod could connect to the UHF
antenna terminals on TVs where there was no connector for external input
of VHF.
Later TVs had external antenna VHF input, either screw terminals, or
later, an F connector.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1:31 a.m.
On 8/31/23 16:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
They were available with a variety of connectors.
Some of those switchboxes had a short flat wire with spade lugs as
output for connecting to the TV, and for input had screw terminal
antenna input, and RCA for the RF input from the RF modulator.
the Wikipedia article for the Sup'R'Mod II has a picture of one such.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod
My first experience with cable TV, provided free, in an apartment that I
was renting was two coax cables coming from a wall plate, connected to a
switchbox. No set-top box in those days--and no commercials.
When the management decided that free cable was too generous, you could
still have it if you paid an extra fee with your rent. They were
sending service guys to disconnect those who didn't take them up on the
offer. I suspected that they were simply removing the coax cables from
the splitter in the wall cavity, so I removed them myself and stashed
them away.
The service people showed up and looked around the apartment and said
"Oh, I guess we've been here already." After they left, I hooked the
coax back up...
Confessions of an ill-spent youth.
--Chuck
--Chuck
8:44 a.m.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
Composite will 99.999999% of the time be better than
RF modulated due to the
bandwidth of NTSC (American) Televisions. The NTSC television standard was
not what I would exactly call high tech or high resolution. It was 525 scan
lines interlaced at 30Hz meaning that there was only 262.5 lines every 60th
That is not NTSC. NTSC only defines how to encode colors in a composite
signal. It does not define any resolution or so.
What you mean is the CCIR norm, for the US it is norm M with the color
carrier at about 3.58 MHz, 525 lines with a bandwidth of about 4 MHz (and
*this* is the limiting factor for the horizontal resolution).
might get 640 x 480 with alot of flicker. If you want
color the resolution
went way down due to the way that the NTSC standard handled colors to be
backwards compatible with black and white televisions.
No, not at all. The resolution of the luminance signal was absolutely the
same.
Christian
30 Aug
30 Aug
10:08 p.m.
The probem with RF Modulators is that due to the National Television
Standards Committee standards for American television there wasn't
enough bandwidth to display 80 characters x24 lines (or 25 lines with
status). Generally 64 x 16 was the maxmimum that would be readable on a
standard black and white TV set. Any higher resolutions would either
cause the characters to "tear" or lose horizontal or vertical sync
completely.
That is why monitors were used. They were not bound by the NTSC
standards and were generally made for 80 x 25 or (even 132 x 25 with a
smaller character set).
On 8/30/2023 3:54 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976
review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
-----Original Message-----
From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: W2HX <w2hx(a)w2hx.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all,
I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a
keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am
trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs
just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported
graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for
the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application.
But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there
was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the
builder some money. But this computer just provides composite.
Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application
on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video
card instead of a terminal?
Thanks for the bandwidth.
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
31 Aug
31 Aug
12:24 a.m.
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk
purchased before the tuner was installed).
OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons,
on the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of that
model.
When I bought my TRS80 ($400, instead of $600, by buying without the
"monitor" and cassette player), I used a CCTV composite monitor. I added
an RCA jack, to use instead of the 5-pin DIN. I upgraded the RAM and ROM,
added another key (Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" needed a Control
key), added Joe Garner's add-in board for reverse video and lower case,
switched to a tri-state LED, and put Riv-Nuts in the base, so that the CPU
and Expansion Interface were bolted to a thin piece of plywood. When the
exterior paint was getting worn, I repainted it blue. Dave Sparks, the RS
repair technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he
didn't void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I
had brought it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws,
he assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without
opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> The probem with RF Modulators is that due to the National Television
> Standards Committee standards for American television there wasn't enough
> bandwidth to display 80 characters x24 lines (or 25 lines with status).
> Generally 64 x 16 was the maxmimum that would be readable on a standard black
> and white TV set. Any higher resolutions would either cause the characters
> to "tear" or lose horizontal or vertical sync completely.
>
> That is why monitors were used. They were not bound by the NTSC standards
> and were generally made for 80 x 25 or (even 132 x 25 with a smaller
> character set).
>
2:27 p.m.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Hence the short text lines on "home"
computers.
The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk
purchased before the tuner was installed).
OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons, on
the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of that
model.
When I bought my TRS80 ($400, instead of $600, by buying without the
"monitor" and cassette player), I used a CCTV composite monitor. I added an
RCA jack, to use instead of the 5-pin DIN. I upgraded the RAM and ROM, added
another key (Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" needed a Control key),
added
Joe Garner's add-in board for reverse video and lower case, switched to a
tri-state LED, and put Riv-Nuts in the base, so that the CPU and Expansion
Interface were bolted to a thin piece of plywood. When the exterior paint
was getting worn, I repainted it blue. Dave Sparks, the RS repair
technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he didn't
void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I had brought
it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he assumed that
I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without opening it ("boat
in a bottle" :-)
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are illegal. The
warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did
resulted in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
7:48 p.m.
> Hence the short text lines on "home"
computers.
> . . .
> . . . Dave Sparks, the RS
> repair technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he
> didn't void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I had
> brought it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he
> assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without
> opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed"
tags were and are illegal. The
warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did resulted
in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in 1975,
just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged.
So, modifications were OK if you did them without damaging the sticker
and/or the painted over screwheads.
http://www.glyptal.com/products/G7526Ftech.pdf
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:52 p.m.
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
CZ
On 8/31/2023 2:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Hence the
short text lines on "home" computers.
> . . . . . . Dave Sparks, the RS repair technician, was happy to
> ignore any mods that he understood, so he didn't void the warranty.
> When his boss objected, he said that since I had brought it in with
> an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he assumed that I
> had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without opening it
> ("boat in a bottle" :-)
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if
Removed" tags were and are illegal.
The warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you
did resulted in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in
1975, just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. So,
modifications were OK if you did them without damaging the sticker
and/or the painted over screwheads.
http://www.glyptal.com/products/G7526Ftech.pdf
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
10:03 p.m.
OMG Flavor Radio, that brings back memories of working at Radio Shack in
1977 fresh out of high school.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane and making me feel old again (or is
that still)👴.
On 8/31/2023 3:52 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for
putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
CZ
On 8/31/2023 2:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
>>> . . . . . . Dave Sparks, the RS repair technician, was happy to
>>> ignore any mods that he understood, so he didn't void the
>>> warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I had brought
>>> it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he
>>> assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots,
>>> without opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
>
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
>> Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are
>> illegal. The warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the
>> thing you did resulted in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
>
> eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in
> 1975, just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
>
> But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
> the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. So,
> modifications were OK if you did them without damaging the sticker
> and/or the painted over screwheads.
> http://www.glyptal.com/products/G7526Ftech.pdf
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1 Sep
1 Sep
4:59 a.m.
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about
everything they sold.
Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and
Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original
companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting
the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering
them at the local shop.
-tony
5:45 a.m.
I think you might be confusing a law argument with a logic argument. 🤓 The 2 are not
related.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2023, at 21:00, Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about
everything they sold.
Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and
Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original
companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting
the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering
them at the local shop.
-tony
4:31 p.m.
I do understand the warranty sticker. Say we have the average computer buyer. He has a
screw driver and mostly knows how to use it. He also went to Radio Shack ( long gone 🙁 )
and bought a cheap soldering iron. He is now fully equipped to repair what ever is wrong
with his box. ( obviously not at Tony's level of competence ) He takes the cover off
and has no idea what he is looking at or what he is looking for. ( I think we have all
been there at one time ) He sees something with a screw driver slot. He has a screw
driver. Perhaps all it needs is a minor adjustment. He turns the screw one way, and
nothing changes. He turns it the other way and, pop, some smoke comes out of the other
side of the chassis.
Oh well, it is under warranty so he goes to sends it in for warranty repair but, dang!, he
broke that warranty seal.
If we want to have it repaired under warranty, we don't need to know what failed (
just curious ). If we expect to fix it ourselves, we bought it. There is value in learning
how to fix it ourselves but the price is the warranty sticker. I except that and will open
it up anyway. I just can't stop myself. I need to know what failed and often can fix
it myself.
Dwight
________________________________
From: Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 9:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I think you might be confusing a law argument with a logic argument. 🤓 The 2 are not
related.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2023, at 21:00, Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about
everything they sold.
Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and
Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original
companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting
the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering
them at the local shop.
-tony
4:42 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:31 PM dwight via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I do understand the warranty sticker. Say we have the average computer buyer. He has a
screw driver and mostly knows how to use it. He also went to Radio Shack ( long gone 🙁 )
and bought a cheap soldering iron. He is now fully equipped to repair what ever is wrong
with his box. ( obviously not at Tony's level of competence ) He takes the cover off
and has no idea what he is looking at or what he is looking for. ( I think we have all
been there at one time ) He sees something with a screw driver slot. He has a screw
driver. Perhaps all it needs is a minor adjustment. He turns the screw one way, and
nothing changes. He turns it the other way and, pop, some smoke comes out of the other
side of the chassis.
You clearly know the TRS-80 Model 1 (or are a good guesser).
There are 4 presets ('things wth a screwdriver slot) on the Model 1
logic board. Two of them are associated with delays on the horizontal
and vertical sync signals. Adusting those can cure a
video-going-off-screen issue.
The other 2? They set the output voltage of the +12V and +5V
regulators. There is no overvoltage protection on the former, turn
that too hgh and you may wipe out all the DRAMs. The latter has a fat
zener across the output, but I am not sure I trust it. And if you turn
the +5V line up you could be looking to replace a lot of ICs...
-tony
3:25 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for
putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
CZ
Of course, because they want to encourage you to open it and thereby void
the warranty.
Sellam
3:40 p.m.
I have been on hold with customer service now for almost 19 months.
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 10:26 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned
for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad....
CZ
Of course, because they want to encourage you to open it and thereby void
the warranty.
Sellam
4:56 a.m.
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 7:49 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
I would love to know how removing an external sticker over a screwhead
(and doing nothing else) could cause an IC inside the machine to fail.
As the latter is the sort of thing you claim warranty on, removing the
sticker have no bearing on the validity of said warranty.
I did manage to get one of those stickers off in one piece. I stored
it on the backing paper of some rub-down letter transfers (remember
those?) and never put it back after I completed the
modifications/repairs. My idea was I'd put it on a unit I'd been
inside if I did want to claim on th warranty. Never did that, I might
still have it somewhere.
-tony
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if
Removed" tags were and are illegal. The
warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did resulted
in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in 1975,
just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. 
6:18 p.m.
I did manage to get one of those stickers off in one
piece. I stored
it on the backing paper of some rub-down letter transfers (remember
those?) and never put it back after I completed the
modifications/repairs. My idea was I'd put it on a unit I'd been
inside if I did want to claim on th warranty. Never did that, I might
still have it somewhere.
This week I installed a cooling fan in my Commodore 128DCR. I've been inside
that unit twice in the last couple months to replace the power supply and then
solder the leads and mount the fan. The warranty sticker remains undisturbed.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- I have but two things to say to you: Celery and Sidewalk. -- Michel Rivard -
31 Aug
31 Aug
10:44 p.m.
On 8/30/23 6:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Hence the short text lines on "home"
computers.
The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk
purchased before the tuner was installed).
OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons,
on the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of
that model.
I have one of these RCA TVs and will be displaying it along with the
TRS-80 monitor to compare at Tandy Assembly this year.
--
Eric Dittman
30 Aug
30 Aug
10:45 p.m.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976
review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most
common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of
channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard,
because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?]
preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum.
Since the RF modulator needed a power supply, and it was easy to bring
power out from the computer, whereas the 'rents wouldn't let you modify
the family Philco, amongst my associates, it tended to be located at the
computer.
Both the AppleII, and the IBM CGA (even including most of its clones) had
a 4 pin Berg (one pin usually missing as a key) to power and run the RF
modulator.
Terminals were cool if you had one, but cost more.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:14 p.m.
When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial
data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2023, at 14:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976
review of the Poly-88 here
(on page 16):
http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf
Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit
board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You
will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and
user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler
and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his
"Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video
board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any
serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video
board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons.
In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. Oddly, it
was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to
channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right below a third tier channel and a
24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum.
Since the RF modulator needed a power supply, and it was easy to bring power out from the
computer, whereas the 'rents wouldn't let you modify the family Philco, amongst my
associates, it tended to be located at the computer.
Both the AppleII, and the IBM CGA (even including most of its clones) had a 4 pin Berg
(one pin usually missing as a key) to power and run the RF modulator.
Terminals were cool if you had one, but cost more.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:39 p.m.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote:
When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone.
The serial port was
for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some
software to use it with a terminal.
Of course.
To do anything with it, you needed some input and output.
Either a good front panel, or
a serial port plus software for a terminal, or
a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software.
paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or
a tape drive, or
a disk drive.
By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or
keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an
operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . .
By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter
hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer.
It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:46 p.m.
I think you forgot the most common storage back then. Audio cassette at
300 or 1200 baud.
On 8/30/2023 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote:
When s-100 machines came out, they were
standalone. The serial port
was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to
write some software to use it with a terminal.
Of course.
To do anything with it, you needed some input and output.
Either a good front panel, or
a serial port plus software for a terminal, or
a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software.
paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey
time, or
a tape drive, or a disk drive.
By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or
keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an
operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . .
By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an
electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer.
It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
31 Aug
31 Aug
12:02 a.m.
When I said "tape drive", I was actually thinking mostly of cassette
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
> I think you forgot the most common storage back then. Audio cassette at 300
> or 1200 baud.
>
> On 8/30/2023 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote:
>>> When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was
>>> for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some
>>> software to use it with a terminal.
>>
>> Of course.
>>
>> To do anything with it, you needed some input and output.
>> Either a good front panel, or
>> a serial port plus software for a terminal, or
>> a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software.
>>
>> paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey
>> time, or
>> a tape drive, or a disk drive.
>>
>> By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or
>> keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating
>> system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . .
>>
>> By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter
>> hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer.
>> It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:16 p.m.
On 8/30/23 17:14, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone.
The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write
some software to use it with a terminal.
Well, maybe, I did have a home made S-100 system in 1976
with limited I/O. But, pretty quickly I got a floppy drive
and controller and started running CP/M with some sort of
video terminal.
Jon
1:42 a.m.
<snip>
In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most
common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of
channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard,
because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?]
preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum.
Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33.
Bill
2:47 a.m.
> In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII
seemed to be the most
> common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of
> channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard,
> because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?]
> preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are
channel 33.
You are right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod#/media/File:Sup_'R'_Mod…
clearly labelled Ch. 33
Mostly. Here's a picture of one that is clearly labelled
"Ch. 32-34 TV INTERFRACE UNIT"
So, I might even have had one that was on ch. 34?
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apple-ii-plus-iie-r-enterprises-sup-…
3 clicks left of KICU, which was 2 clicks left of the 24/7 speed-freak
preacher dude. (UHF tuners were actually usually an analog knob, without
presets)
I set up a few for friends, but I never used one; in college, I had done a
fair amount of playing with Sony CV series and AV series reel to reel
consumer video recorders, and I had a Sony 11"? monitor/TV, and some CCTV
monitors.
The presence of that 4 pin Berg connector was the quickest way to
recognize/identify CGA video cards, disunirregardless of manufacturer.
(The 12 pin (2x6, keyed) connector mid-board is the identifying element of
the Compaq video)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
2:49 a.m.
I remember just getting close to channel 33, not worrying what the actual
channel was anyway...as long as it worked.
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 9:47 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> In the
circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most
> common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of
> channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard,
> because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7
[speed-freak?]
> preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks
in the spectrum.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are
channel 33.
You are right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod#/media/File:Sup_'R'_Mod…
clearly labelled Ch. 33
Mostly. Here's a picture of one that is clearly labelled
"Ch. 32-34 TV INTERFRACE UNIT"
So, I might even have had one that was on ch. 34?
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apple-ii-plus-iie-r-enterprises-sup-…
3 clicks left of KICU, which was 2 clicks left of the 24/7 speed-freak
preacher dude. (UHF tuners were actually usually an analog knob, without
presets)
I set up a few for friends, but I never used one; in college, I had done a
fair amount of playing with Sony CV series and AV series reel to reel
consumer video recorders, and I had a Sony 11"? monitor/TV, and some CCTV
monitors.
The presence of that 4 pin Berg connector was the quickest way to
recognize/identify CGA video cards, disunirregardless of manufacturer.
(The 12 pin (2x6, keyed) connector mid-board is the identifying element of
the Compaq video)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
259
days inactive
264
days old
68 comments
28 participants
participants (28)
-
Adrian Godwin -
Andy Wallis -
Bill Degnan -
Bill Gunshannon -
Bob Grabau -
Cameron Kaiser -
Chris Zach -
Christian Corti -
Christian Kennedy -
Chuck Guzis -
David Arnold -
dwight -
Eric Dittman -
Fred Cisin -
geneb -
Jon Elson -
Jonathan Chapman -
Mike Katz -
Paul Koning -
raymond.wiker＠icloud.com -
Rick Bensene -
Sellam Abraham -
Tony Duell -
W2HX -
Warner Losh -
Wayne S -
William Sudbrink -
wrcooke＠wrcooke.net