On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Looks like it is for a VAXstation 2000. Knowing that, does anyone know if
> such a thing could fit (and work) in one of the two machines I mention
> above?
I have a couple of uVAX 2000s (same box, move a jumper and don't
attach a tube). The unexpanded box has connectors on the motherboard
and comes with cables to attach one drive. I've seen them usually
with RD53s and RD54s, but RD31s and RD32s should work fine, or IIRC,
any drive you can manage to format on an RQDX3 using the Field Service
formatter (not the Customer Runnable Diagnostics formatter). You can
format known models of drive (RD31, RD32, RD53, RD54, and perhaps
others) in the uVAX2000 box, too, but I don't think there's a way to
format non-DEC-geometry drives there.
So... unexpanded, you get a 20-pin and a 34-pin cable from the
mainboard to the drive. What this expansion *might* be is a
replacement cable that extends past the drive and goes out an access
plate on the bottom of the box, then to a connector on a "skirt" (that
should also be included) to give you a (ISTR) DD50P that you can cable
to an external drive. There may also be a small circuit board in the
skirt for the drive, it's been years since I've opened mine.
There's also room in the skirt for external connector for the 8-port
serial expander (DHT32?). I have one of those too, but haven't gotten
the external cabling to use it.
So... there _is_ a kit for adding an external disk connector to a
MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000, but I have no idea if this part number is
what it is. The *controller* is built into every uV/VS2000, but not
the cabling for an external drive.
-ethan
Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
Hi. As a first general comment, I should point out that is was years
since I played with this, so all I write is from hazy memories. I could
check it all out, but that would take some time, so I'll just write away
for now, and hopefully this will be enough to set you on the right path
yourself. :-)
>>> I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e.
>>> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud.
> And I begin to think about switching everything to 300 baud :-(
In a way, that is your only option, yes. Sad as it might seem.
>>> I need fill characters....
>>> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and
>>> works.
> Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler
It works with applications that don't do explicit termimal I/O, but
instead do file I/O and the output (or input) is actually the terminal.
That's the only situation where the terminal driver is involved. The
terminal driver is really not adapted to use as a general terminal I/O
handler, but only to use as one output/input alternative when you do
file I/O.
So it will never be, or do, what you want in this situation.
>> You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device
>> driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do
>> I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks
>> directly with the console.
>> So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem.
> And the very first of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard monitor!
That's just the beginning of it, however...
> Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a handler, it just uses TLS to print what it wants to print.
> This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler with delay turned on. But I
> don't get the prompt properly (sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks very straight
> forward.
> So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud VT05:
>
> How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least one undefined symbol in the source
> code (V3D).
Can't make any comments on that. I think I have all the sources
somewhere, and they are also probably on the internet, but I have never
tried building the whole system from scratch.
> When I have the binary - how to put that onto my system device?
That's another story. I can't remember for sure, but I think you can do
this with build.
> The software support manual, OS/8 manual and "Introduction to programming" did not really help me.
> They explain *some* procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about building from paper
> tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or the build program. They reference paper tapes that
> contain "several binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that the user has to load all of
> them... So in the end I did not find out how an OS/8 system is initally built.
In your case, you probably want to use BUILD.
> The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where does it take the keyboard monitor from? The "OS8.BN"
> binary is not included in the installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So it must
> somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary.
> I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each other to pull together the core
> image that comes as BUILD.SV. But where can I find the instructions?
All the relevant bits and pieces are in the OS/8 handbook. But in short,
build can take a current system image and use as a base for the new one
if I remember correctly. So it don't contain the OS/8 binary itself.
That would be pretty dumb, by the way. It would make upgrading
difficult, since you'd have to match BUILD.SV to whatever OS image you
were using.
BUILD can also replace device drivers in your system. That is fixed
blocks on the system disk, I think.
> All in all I cannot understand why I'm getting in such deep trouble while trying to get my VT05
> working. It is a VT05 B with the "high speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC.
> Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why doesn't the keyboard monitor?
> Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit their hardware.
> In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest device drivers into their software,
> just ready to use and plug and play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high speed VT05? It is
> from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that...
To make a long story short. The PDP-8 wasn't exactly a top of the line
product by the time the VT05 came out. OS/8 was written before this, and
it is those limitations that you are hitting. V3D wasn't exactly a
redesign of the system. Just some fixes. The problem you are looking at
goes straight to the core of the system design. There is nothing you
could do about that short of totally rewriting the whole system. And
then it wouldn't be OS/8 any more.
In short, all programs that do terminal I/O specifically in OS/8 do it
themself. No device driver is ever involved. And all programs knows
this. So there is no way you can change that paradigm. All programs
would still do it that way, even if you did redesign the monitor.
There is possibly one path to relief, however. Unless my memory fails
me, the KL8-JA (and maybe the KL8-E as well) have a jumper to insert 4
(I think it was) fillers after a LF. This is a hardware fix for your
problem, and is what DEC did.
In short, there is no software solution to the problem within OS/8. But
there is a hardware solution (unless my memory fails me).
> Best wishes, currently a bit frustated,
>
> Philipp :-)
:-)
Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought there
were atleast some people with experience from older systems around. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> I thought it could only format "known" disk types, not arbitrary disks
> (a firmware limitation in the formatter application, not a hardware
> limitation).
Surely, it's possible to hack an RQDX3 controller's ROM to support arbitrary geometries? I have an old ST506 MFM drive hanging around here I keep toying with using. Does someone have a listing for the ROM?
-cheers from Julz @p
I recently aquired a couple of VAX 4000-705a's from a recycler and
am looking for:
TK70 or TK85 Tape bracketing, sleds and one faceplate
I have several drive rail sets for a BA213 to trade or would be willing to
buy.
Dan Snyder
view my stuff at http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder
This is marginally off-topic, but I'd like to hear from anyone who was
building Mozilla for Mac OS 9 back in the day successfully -- I have a few
questions for you. They can be off list to avoid topic drift if you like.
Thanks :)
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Point to ponder: without sponges, how much deeper would the ocean be? ------
Dear Jean Allread,
I saw your post about a zenith easy PC and i, always have wanted to have an
"old fashioned" computer thought that this was my chance! I would enjoy
owning the Zenith Easy PC and would take constant care of it. I would like
to hear back from you.
Sincerely,
Abe Dickinson
What are you selling it for?
Linda Whetton
Environmental Resources Division
125 S. State Street, Room 6107
Salt Lake City UT 84138-1147
Tel: 801-524-3880
Fax: 801-524-3858
EM: lwhetton at usbr.gov
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> the Box was expanable to a second similar sized on to add either TK50 using
>> the sasi (sorta scsi) bus...
>
>Is it _really_ SASI? ISTR there's a 5380 chip in there, but I could
>be thinking of the TK50Z-FA board. I did once download and burn a set
>of EPROMs to try to boot a (slow) SCSI disk in the MV2000, but I don't
>think I ever got as far as loading a disk. I have a 200MB 3.5"
>Embedded SCSI drive ready to drop into a machine if I ever get a
>chance to pick that project back up. I know the interface won't be
>fast, but it would allow me to use more modern disks, and that's
>really, really handy, no matter how slow.
>
I think there is an NCR5380 in the VS2000 but I don't remember for sure.
However, I do know that I have used Wolfgang J. Moeller's PK2K SCSI drivers for
VS/MV2000 successfully to access directly connected SCSI disks on my VS2000 while
booted from either an RD54 or another cluster member. I have never tried replacing
the ROMs in order to be able to boot from a SCSI disk though.
(I have also formatted and used a number of random MFM disks pulled from PCs
on my VS2000.)
Regards,
Peter
