test-drb June 2009

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

233 participants
404 discussions

by bqt＠softjar.se

Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > But I don't lioke changing the classic machine. Not even replacing >> > PSUs >> > with switchers. The original PSU is part of the design, and I want to >> > keep it that way. > > While I agree with you here, I have to admit that, if my PDP-11/70 > had switching power supplies, I'd probably run it a lot more often. > I'd *never* make it an irreversible modification, though. Um. An 11/70 have switched power supplies normally. Did you remove them and install large transformers? That would become a very heavy machine in that case. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

16 years, 1 month

IBM 3420 tape drive and 3803 controller available (with pictures)

by wmaddox＠pacbell.net

The seller for eBay item # 250445866736 has a complete 3420 tape drive and 3803 controller available. Located in Ladysmithc, Wisconsin. They are due to be parted out if no one speaks up for them. I inquired about these, and the seller sent me some photos. They are posted on my website at http://www.harlie.org/ibm_tape . I do not collect IBM big iron myself, but the 3420 is iconic, and folks look for them from time to time. I have no connection with the seller. --Bill

16 years, 1 month

New communication method, old-school

by tpeters＠mixcom.com

Twitter from your C-64 http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/06/14/0218212/A-Twitter-Client-For-th… ----- 859. Help you I can! --Yoda --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531

16 years, 1 month

Printer rant

by technobug＠comcast.net

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:10:42 -0500, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com > wrote: >> Have you replaced the fuser yet, or is it still the flaking one? > > It's still the flaking one. But It's bad. It's missing chunks from > both sides. I have a bid on a complete assembly at ebay. If I don't > get that today, I'll just order one. Partsmart <http://www.partsmart-corp.com/partsmart.asp> is your printer's friend. Just a very satisfied customer... CRC

16 years, 1 month

IBM Thinkpad 600e can't get past password prompt...

by alhartman＠yahoo.com

>From what I understand, the drive is locked by the system using the master supervisor password. Replacing the logic board (or the system unit as a whole) doesn't unlock the HDD. ? Only discovering and entering the master password will work. ? The unit will not boot to a floppy for a BIOS upgrade or to run a BIOS Password Crack program. It asks for the master password and refuses to go past that point. ? We didn't set the password, and presumably the original owner did and didn't tell us what it was. I tried contacting the seller, but the email address is no longer active. ? Replacing the security chip is more money and labor than the unit is worth. I can buy another unit for under $40 if I wanted to. ? I want to get to her HDD data, which she never backed up. Putting the HDD into a USB case results in a drive that is seen but won't mount on a PC, Mac or Linux Box. ? The drive is locked with an ATA command, and can only be unlocked by another ATA command supplying the password it was locked with. ? I can download a free utility to low level format the drive, but not unlock it. ? Paying $100 or more to have the data recovered is not in her budget, else she would have had the money to buy a new laptop rather than a bargain basement IBM Thinkpad. ? I've tried all sorts of supposed IBM Backdoor master passwords without success. I can't even find someone to tell me where the security chip is so I can use the circuit and software to read the password off the chip is. ? I really don't want to break the whole unit down if I don't have to. My eyes and hands aren't as steady as they used to be, and I'm not familiar with this unit as I am with Apple Powerbook G3 units. ? I've tried removing the battery for several days. Typing in every password I could think of. But, nothing works. ? I guess her data is gone, and my last backup of her data when I set the thing up for her is the best she is going to get. ? If anyone has any solutions, I'd be glad to hear them. ? Al Phila, PA

16 years, 1 month

Hardware Hobbyists vs. Emulator Enthusiasts vs Replica Recreators

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> An excellent, almost definitive summary of the subject. I would just like to add a little of my own experiences. > I happen to be in both camps - yes, such a thing is possible. > Luckily I > do have enough physical space to be able to own a few dozen old > machines, though nothing very large, but certainly, I can experience > far > many more machines than I can house by emulating them. I have the real thing too (1962 mainframe) but also have an emulator for it. I initially wrote it so I could write software for it in the comfort of my house in the cold winter months without having to (a) risk damaging Germanium transistors which have a minimum official temperature rating of 50F, 10C. (b) having to warm up a whole barn to be comfortable to work in (c) having to hand start an old 3 phase 3.5 litre diesel generator with cold thick oil in it (d) having to pay for lots of diesel fuel or after I had 3 phase installed, to pay for 13 kWh electricity per hour. I now plan to publish my emulator on the web, along with original software which non programmers can run on it. I am very unsure of how many people will be interested in such a thing. I need to get the physical machine running to retrieve said software from unique ten track mag tapes and from standard 80 column cards, though I could probably get the latter read elsewhere, I don't want to have to transport about 150,000 card somewhere to have them read, probably at great cost. I am also into classic cars and hold an annual car show at my home attended by about 4000 people. The opportunity to try opening the door and show visitors the mainframe was too hard to resist, so we did and were very surprised by the results. No negative comments, even by children who were amazed that computers were ever so much bigger than their familiar home machines. It was surprising how many adults people had experienced mainframes and who loved being reminded of just what it had been like, and having the opportunity for their children to experience what words alone cannot really describe. The smell of hot electronics by the ton, the heat, the noise, and of course the sights of the whole thing and the main console with its flashing lights, the scale of a machine big enough that you can stand INSIDE it and being told it weighs five tons. In the early years I had to simulate some of what the machine should have done, by using diagnostic facilities and one or three instructions entered directly into the control registers when the machine had failed. If the machine ever completely failed and had to be shut down I certainly would be very disappointed and I feel the visitors would be too, I'm sure a static museum exhibit just does not have the same impact. I once visited Manchester museum and they had a couple of old mainframe. No explanation, nobody to ask, I could have been very interested and spent hours there but without any information I passed on to the next room in about two minutes. I have to say the temptation to try the on switch was hard to resist, there wasn't even anything saying not to do so. > By and large, the people I've dealt with in regards to emulation have > been civil and friendly and appreciative. Some of these have never > seen > the systems they want emulators or, some of them have and wish to > relive > the nostalgia, some couldn't afford the real thing, or couldn't repair > it and so forth. In other words, they're hobbyists, just like the > type > of folks you'll find here on this list. And in fact, some were from > this list. The same thing in the classic car scene. There are people who spend years building replicas of E Type Jaguars (called XKE in the US), D Type Jaguars, AC Cobras, 1930s roadsters etc, often with better performance/handling than the originals. Very nice people, and I'd rather they did that than modify a working original. Like many others, I take an original car which should really be scrapped and spend much time and money to bring it back to how it left the factory, often to a better build quality. A few people then sell them at a huge loss because it is the restoration process itself that they enjoy. I keep mine (I have never ever sold a car - scrapped a few though) and enjoy driving it. I have seven cars - six are roadworthy, one under restoration, postponed due to the amount of work on my classic computer. > I will say this, a computer is nothing more than a bunch of parts that > don't do interesting things without software. Whether that > software is > a specific set of applications, an operating system, or a ROM with > some > sort of interpreter or debugger in it, or some code you yourself > have to > type in, there's not much a computer can do without code. All it will > do is sit there and take up space and, if turned on, consume > electricity > and produce heat. For micro computers I agree, not quite sure this applies to mainframes. I guess it depends on how you define software. If a single instruction is software then I suppose so. At the lowest level debugging I can set an instruction into control register one, set the machine to single cycle and watch the lights on the console as I send single clock pulses through the hardware every time I press a button. > I'll assume that we're not in this hobby for the sole purpose of using > classic computers as space heaters. Not solely no. Just a useful side effect. > Now, of course, there is a lot of fun in the physical aspects of it, > repairing and reconfiguring systems, for example is a very good thing, > that's what allows us to keep our machines in running order, and > there's > certainly a huge sense of accomplishment in fixing a machine, and > therefore saving it from the scrap heap. Yes. > Ultimately, I believe that's the key here (at least it is for > myself - > and I don't presume to speak for others, except in the sense that they > might feel the same way) if you can't actually run the machine, it's > not very useful. It might be something nice to look at in a museum, > but > you won't be able to interact with it, you won't be able to *run > programs on it*. So, to me, a non working machine isn't very much > more > interesting than a statue, in fact, quite a lot less due to the lost > potential of what it could be. Couldn't agree more. > Walking by a cordoned off exhibit that shows a non-functioning > machine, > without the ability to see it run or interact with it, well that's > just > not very interesting to me. Watching the blinking lights of a powered > on machine might be fun for only about 3 seconds (unless perhaps > you're > one of those that tends to partake in mind-shrinking substances). > > The experience of actually running code, and even better, coding for > an > old machine is probably the largest part of the fun of this hobby. Yes but how can you give this experience to several hundred visitors in a day. With a multi-programmed machine this might be possible but with an older machine, specially ones without terminals (my one does not even have an operators terminal) you cannot do much without affecting the experience of the bulk of less technical visitors. I suppose it would be possible to provide an emulated machine to the minority but would they be interested in that? > ...... > > But there is one area where we are actually able to create and provide > immortality: software. So that's why I'm a programmer? I don't really expect my programs to be around in 20 years time let alone a hundred. One member here did express approval for a program I wrote in the 1980s but that is exceptional. The program drove a particular colour dot matrix printer, very few of which survive, and is of no use whatever without that hardware, which in time will become extinct. Applications I've worked on could fare better but why would anyone want to run a 2D drafting program or a 3D modelling program on an emulated Mac in a hundred years time? For me I think its pleasing people NOW which matters, and of course the money to spend on cars, old computers, food etc > ..... > > > I think the major complaint (or rather phobia) is that emulation can > allow one to run the same software WITHOUT the original hardware. Oh, > the excuses will come up from the back of the mind, dripping in terror > "But! But! But! If they can run it in software, they might throw out > the > hardware!" Well, yes, they might, and when /they/ discard that old > hardware, it will likely make its way to our hands. Sure, some will > wind up being scrapped by those who don't know any better, but a lot > of > folks realize our hobby exists. Some have various misunderstandings > about our ability to pay insane amounts for nostalgia (i.e. the rabid > ebay complaints that surface every few months), but others aren't > looking for a quick score, so they'll ask around or post on Craig's > List > or Goodwill and do the right thing. As I am not going to live for ever I want my old computer to go to a museum. I've already tried with one which eventually went to a privately run museum as I could not GIVE it to a publicly run one. I would like this to happen to my remaining one whilst I am young enough to tell them how to move it, reassemble it and help get it running, I don't want to be doing it in my eighties, but I MIGHT still be interested in running an emulator which does not develop faults and need a resident engineer to fix them. > (Some write emulators for the > challenge, for being the first to do so, etc. I admit all of those > sentiments in my own experiences, but preservation was the main one.) One aspect of emulators I have not yet explored is, well hold on a second and I'll explain. When looking through the 1301's documentation, circuit diagrams and instruction set, I am very tempted to add improvement which could have been done by the designer, but for some reason, either budgetary or lack of knowledge (some software techniques had not been invented yet). In an emulator I could add indexing or indirect addressing, or immediate mode data, or relative mode, or branch on NOT some condition without having to modify the actual hardware. I could then try programming the machine in that configuration and see how it affected the program size and ease of programming. It would be even more fun if the emulator was done at logic gate level and even more so if mated to an interactive 3D model of the hardware where you could open the cover, insert emulated scope probes and look at the signals. You could even emulate random logic failures for educational reasons, though to do so as a game would probably be a step too far for me, though programming the emulator to do it WOULD be fun. > So the goals of those who repair, those who create replicas, and those > who write emulators are very much the same. > The goals of those who buy and collect older machines, and of those > who > run emulators are also similar. Yes. > There are also many reasons why emulation is a good thing. The > ability > to liberate the soul of the machine from the hardware (whether broken > beyond repair, fixable, or working) is a good thing. It provides us > with the chance to collect unwanted hardware, it provides anyone who > is > interested the ability to experience older software, and to some > degree > get an idea of what the older hardware could do. Sure, it's not the > same, but it can be if the guys who write emulators care to make it a > close experience. If we ask for them to be as close to the real thing > as possible, the guys that write emulators will make it so. Yes. > ... > > > While there may have been only a few Colossus machines, all of which > had > been destroyed after WWII, if someone can get their hands on the > emulator for it, they can run one whenever the mood strikes. Not as > many can build their own replica, however, and none will have an > original. > > (Speaking of which anyone know where you could get a Colossus emulator > from? - there was mention of one here: > http://designresearchgroup.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/a-post-modern-colossus/ > ) :-) The emulation page of the CCS web site seems to have disappeared so I can't check. As Colossus, like early US machines was not a stored program computer, I'm not sure at what level you want the emulation to run. I think there was an emulator for Baby, the first stored program computer on the web site. > Maybe emulators aren't for everyone, then again, neither is > collecting a > lot of classic machines, or building replicas of such. To each their > own. Each have advantages the others can't meet. > > And of course there is a huge spectrum between pristine sealed in > box to > damaged beyond repair. (Of course, ideally, every classic machine > should be in pristine condition, with unyellowed cases, and completely > working. But that's a pipe dream.) Never had a sealed in box machine which was beyond economic repair? :-) > That spectrum also includes modern peripherals or upgrades. Some > would > scream bloody murder at the thought of replacing a non-working hard > drive for a classic system with a modern hard drive (or CF card) and > interface, others would gladly welcome it as it means the difference > between an unusable machine and one that works. > > This can go all the way to replacing the actual internals of a machine > with a modern one running an emulator (I recall someone installed a > Mac > Mini inside a Mac Plus case and then ran mini vMac on it as an > example), > or of course, just a plain emulator running on a normal consumer > machine. > > I don't think we should be bickering and fighting over where our > preferences lie on the spectrum. To each their own, and no matter > where > your preferences lie, the end result is that more classic machines are > saved from scrap. Absolutely.

16 years, 1 month

Any PACE users out there?

by eric＠brouhaha.com

The PACE was National Semiconductor's first single-chip 16-bit microprocessor. Its architecture was similar to National's earlier IMP-16 multichip processor, which in turn was inspired by the Data General Nova architecture. Godbout designed and advertised a PACE system, and built a prototype, but never put it into production. PACE never caught on with hobbyists, possibly because it was slower than the more common 8-bit processors. PACE, and the later INS8900 NMOS version, did get used in some embedded systems. In May I wrote an assembler and simulator for the PACE, and typed in the published source code for PACE FIG-Forth. I found and corrected a bug in the U/ word. In case anyone actually has a PACE system, I've put the sources online: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/national/pace/figforth/ I'm not quite ready to publish my assembler and simulator, though if anyone feels an urgent need for such things, let me know. Eric

16 years, 1 month

FrameMaker for SunOS

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

Who were the people who wanted packages of FrameMaker for SunOS? I volunteered to take the lot from Dave McGuire and repackage them for those who wanted them. He's finally getting around to sending them off to me. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

16 years, 1 month

Computer history in New Jersey

by evan＠snarc.net

Hi cctalkers. Lately I've been compiling information about computer developments that happened at the former Army Signal Corps base ("Evans Signal Lab" ... no it wasn't named for me!) here in New Jersey. The base closed in the late 1990s and part of it became the computer museum where we hold VCF, etc. Some folks might find this interesting: http://www.snarc.net/cctalk-evans.pdf. The museum is open (most) Sundays from 1pm - 4pm, and other times by appointment for private tours, if anyone's taking a trip east this summer. (VCF isn't until September.) - EK

16 years, 1 month

NEC uPD7220/GDC Design Manual

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > the older one was the 7220 + DRAM + TTL + a chracter > generator EPROM. It "older one" as in earlier model QX10 or QX10 as opposed to QX16? I have a 10, w/the Titan 8088 board if anyone needs pics of that.

16 years, 1 month

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test-drb June 2009